Complementary Styles? Also, Grappling Thread

as a judo white belt with 6 months of experience, I have been surprised to find my takedown abilities are consistently on par with bjj brown belts, and far surpass anything below that. I sieonage blue belts like a motherfucker.

>>1365944
nice copy pasta keku

>>1365945
that's true though. Many BJJ schools view BJJ as a sport and therefore spend about 5% of time and effort on learning takedown game.

Here is an example of what happens when a superior stand up grappler refuses to go on the ground

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtSQSbJzGAM

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>>1365965
gah, what's happen to /asp/
so much misinformation nowadays. I do have to say its nice to see 2 grappling threads in a see of pro wrestling.

What was said in>>1365944
and I'm not even a BJJ player, i'm a judo nidan and high school wrestling coach. But ive been around plenty of BJJ stylist. And there are always rule of thumbs and they can be broken but usually a person that has a BJJ brown belt has enough elements of a takedown game that a judo white belt of 6 months won't be taking them down. Of course there's caveats, such as judoka coming from highschool wrestling, but doing gross glossovers and generalization is ignorant and fool hardy. You treat any opponent of any of the major styles as a threat you underestimate them and they're going to smoke you.


Now going onto >>1365965
That's more BS, linage is a huge part of BJJ culture and depending on the linage and coaches you'll have some gyms that focus on sport style BJJ, some gyms will focus on MMA some will focus on street (Gracies, etc). If you don't like sport thats nice but to say 95% focus on sport that they mitigate their stand up is foolish. A lot of top players from purple up will have at least 1 takedown that you have to be wary of. I think its actually repectuable what the BJJ community has done with certain takedowns and evolved that outside their style of origin, Looking at what top meta players like Saulo Riberio has done with judo throws like seoi otoshi and developed almost an entirely BJJ exclusive move, because it works within the context of top BJJ play. Same with Damain Maia, who's taken folk style single leg and combined it with MMA's cage walls and evolved that takedown into a move that has synergy with his style of BJJ.

These guys aren't like the exception, i advocate this to my own students, but when you look at people at the top of their rule set, study it, add it, and emulate it into your own game.

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>>1365983
Anyway to answer the OP, its a cliche at this point but all styles of grappling of synergy with each other, think of grappling as one huge book and each style is a different chapter of the book they sort of say the same thing but in a different way, but each chapter has their own unique voice. So there's like no real superior way which style to mix up, Within the hundreds of years people have grappled and with each rule set that comes, you see ground specialist in judo, takedown masters in BJJ, master armlocks in folk style wrestling, it really depends on who the coach was for the individual athlete.

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I consider myself more of a judoka, however in the judo circles because of my wrestling background I'm a to much of a brute with no technique. But within the wrestling community because of my judo background me and my athletes do to much foo foo fluff that is low percent or doesn't work (even though it does)

So for me and my mind's eye good grappling is good grappling .

One grappler that I admire right now is UFC welterweight contender and BJJ world champ Damian Maia, like i mentioned earlier he has done something wonderful with folk style wrestling (and judo) and combined them with the walls used in MMA, on a fundamental level of just "good" wrestling and or judo, his takedowns are ugly, and sloppy, but because of his fight IQ, its very respectable to learn how he has turn his BJJ into something combat ready with modified wrestling and judo .

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>>1365996
I think being well rounded is a romantic idea that a lot of beginners fall in love with but it plateaus their game and eventually leads to begin overwhelmed, frustration, and eventually burn out and quitting. Regardless of what style someone starts with, you need to pick up the fundamentals of that style and as you develop your fundamentals you start to find your identity within that style. Everyone within the same style doesn't fight the same, That;s what makes a martial art a martial art, within judo you have so many ways that you can become specialized, so i find it amusing people say oh judo are just throw specalist, to the untrained yes, judo has a lot of throws, but go deep and you'll relize there are people that specialize on ground fighting, grip fighting, trips, sweeps, tosses, etc. Same could be said with wrestling, and developing and identity within a core style honestly takes probably 3 years a minimum , once you have that identity, those fundamentals establish, then look at other styles as utility to supplement what's lacking in your general grapplingship

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>>1366002

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>>1366003

>>1365944
Dan grade here. I do not believe you. I consistently find white belts of six months barely able to stay on their feet just during the gripping phase.

>>1365965
Filthy guard puller here. That guy just has straight up no idea what he's doing, all around. He doesn't commit to going down when he does go down.

He sits down by moving his hips BACKWARDS.

At no point does he ever try to manage range or control his opponents hips.

At 0:50 he gets a perfect opportunity to tie the guy up. Instead he decides to stand up, and also give up a guillotine on a guy who isn't even trying for that, so he doesn't even have basic submission defense. He gives up his neck constantly.

The closest I see to any guard work is an attempt to scoot into butterfly from a million miles away. That man would get his ass handed to him in any style.

>>1365828

Catch is the correct answer and the be all and end all of wrestling. BUT it's effectively a dead art with very few decent places to train globally.

In the US? My vote goes to BJJ and Amateur. You'll find good schools with high levels of competition everywhere in the states.

>>1366467
>catch is the be all end all

Why do people who don't train a style praise it so hard?

>>1366056
it's true though, they tell me I have a very good base. I even get a throw in on the brown belts in judo class sometimes during randori I even took down a black belt last week for the first time (I had done it once before but he was wearing a blind fold so I hardly think it counts)

full disclosure, It's always a counter throw. I get boxed the fuck out when I instigate. However when they try something on me I use my ability to turn my legs into immovable tree trunks, survive the pull, and yank them in another direction.

>>1366577
Theyre going easy on you because your a white belt and that's what you're supposed to do with white belts.

Don't be dumb.

>>1366521
Contrarianism. See, they don't know anything about grappling, so they have nothing to contribute. Pointing out the value of obvious things is obvious, and so also not a contribution to the discussion.

Insisting that something suitably obscure is the be all end all levels the playing field. None of this matters because it's not catch, and it sounds like he actually brought some useful information.

>>1365983
Our coach has a background in basically everything, but primarily amateur wrestling, shoot/catch wrestling and BJJ.

He has similarly developed a takedown game specifically for gi BJJ which is different from any other sport.

>>1366467
As one of the few catch style people around; you are an idiot. You would have almost no bottom guard game if that's all you did.

Bump. Interesting inputs, lets keep it going.

I'm going increasingly cold on the idea of complementary arts, not that the concept doesn't exist at all, just that I think you have to be working at a particularly advanced level to be truly taking advantage of multiple knowledge bases.

I think in the first 5 or so years of any art, anything you've learned elsewhere is more about awareness than technique in terms of advancing your skills. Only after a long time of training both arts would the two come together in some synergistic fashion. But that's just me.

Also, good to see multiple grappling threads going. Keep it up /asp/

>>1370175
>I think in the first 5 or so years of any art, anything you've learned elsewhere is more about awareness than technique in terms of advancing your skills. Only after a long time of training both arts would the two come together in some synergistic fashion. But that's just me.
Faster, truth be told. I picked up BJJ when I had been doing Judo for 1.5 years, and the benefits were visible within months. Further developing that obviously takes years, but 4 years into BJJ I now have a very functional hybrid game that I can easily adapt to how my opponent fights. I can usually capitalize on weaknesses in their game.

>>1365828
Why are so many bjj guys pussy liberal faggots. All reddits Bjj section ever has anymore is people accusing people of being sexist, xenophobic, homophobic, islamphobic and transphobic. It's such shit. No one even posts techniques anymore it's such bullshit.

>>1371201
then lets talk about technique
and answer OP's question what gi or no gi takedowns do you do?

>>1371202
I come from wrestling in PA so for no gi I just usually follow with doubles and single legs. Occasionally an arm spin, lateral drop or firemans carry.

In gi pretty similar except I like to get a get grip on the label and then slide under for the fireman a carry. Or label grip into an ankle pick. Against guys who want to pull guard or shoot a shitty single leg I'll hit the uchi mata.

>>1371209
Lapel not label. Fuck my phones autocorrect

>>1370570
Oh cool, thanks for contributing anon. Always happy to be proven wrong by someone with experience.

Do you find that it's helped your ground game at all or just your stand up? In what ways specifically do you think it's helped?

>>1371284
Things I noticed
>my stand up was better than most people at the BJJ place - still is
>due to BJJ I quickly developed a more efficient ground game that gave me an edge during Judo
>similarly, my Judo takedowns coupled with a very stable and dominant top game give me a considerable edge during BJJ, as I can usually force my game on someone else
>also as a consequence, I'm very hard to sweep or submit from guard
>no ban on leg grabs has allowed me to develop a takedown game that also incorporates leg grabs

Downside is that I've become too reliant on ground work and leg grabs to defeat people of equal or greater skill and weight during Judo, and while my sweep game is decent, my submissions from guard are average at best for BJJ. Still, during Judo I can reliably force the ground game into submission or pin, whereas during BJJ I can force the top game easily enough to overcome most opponents of otherwise equal skill. Still working on the guard and throws.

>>1365965
That was hilarious. Nice to see a wrestler that doesn't fall into people's guard all the time.

>>1365965
Was this in Russia by chance?Wrestling is best

so can you win a bjj match by knocking someone out with a takedown?

>>1372704
I'm pretty sure you'll get DQ'd for that

>>1372704
The only rule concerned I've found so far is 'deliver opponent safely to the mat'.

This can be interpreted too widely for my liking, but as I see it, any clean throw is fair game. As long as you don't attempt to spike or otherwise injure your opponent by denying them the option to fall safely, it should be legal. If they get injured or knocked out due to their own fault, it's their responsibility.

>>1372753
so this has me concerned, if I ippon a nigga and he takes a clean flat back, gets the wind knocked out of him and can't continue. To me that sounds like a win.

>>1372761
It should be ideally but I haven't heard of any cases of that happening

>>1372684
You know, I'm such a dumbass that I didn't consider it would go both ways. Like, switching from judo to BJJ would also improve your judo. Of course it would.

>>1366654
I lol'ed. I mean, don't get me wrong, Judo will definitely give you better take downs over BJJ, but that was pretty spot on.

That or the dude is really fat. Fucking fat guys. Back when I was a brown belt, a fat guy fell on me. Long story short, I'm now missing a ligament in my foot.

>>1372684
I remember before the ban on leg grabs :(

The knee-drop double leg grab was lame and all, but it's something you should be aware of. And they eliminated or severely altered a bunch of other great throws. And then today I hear you can't even bear hug and catch your hands together around the opponent anymore. What the fuck is that shit?

>>1374483
It's kind of bullshit how you can only hold an unorthodox grip for less than 3 seconds.

>>1374568
judo is such a joke. it is really shit tier compare to all the other styles. The rules ruled it if you want to learn real judo you need to learn BJJ and wrestling.

>>1374483
I started before the ban as well, I've seen the rules get more and more restrictive as well. I do hope the post-Olympics talks that will be held on the subject remove at least a part of the restrictions.

>>1374572
Yeah, no. While in theory most of basic Judo is found in either wrestling or BJJ, a massive amount of set-ups and techniques have either been lost, or were never found in one of them to begin with. Judo, wrestling and BJJ have each involved in such a way that it is practically impossible to learn all three by only learning two. Sure, you'll be a very well-rounded grappler who understands the principles and biomechanics, but you'll not have learned everything there is to learn.

>>1374572
judo has footwork the other two have no idea about, a judoka throws sweeps as combinations the same way a boxer throws jabs

catch wrestling and wrestling in general are the shit. i've been watching a lot of billy robinson videos that have good ideas. josh robinson posts a lot of unorthodox setups and submissions that are pretty high percentage from what i've tested so far

>>1371201
I've never seen that once there. It is kind of a hugbox, though.

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>>1375032
I'm fairly certain Josh Robinson just copies all his stuff from Erik Paulson, Reily Bodycomb, Edgy Brah, and Billy Robinson DVDs but with worse details.