Kenjutsu vs Kendo thread Kenjutsu is actual sword technique.

>>1304012
Thats a stupid dichotomy. For one kendo does contain actual sword technique , its just not usually practiced as practical swordsmanship

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2ZRpl9WoPQ

>>1304173
Aren't those just directly derived from kenjutsu?

>>1304277
As far as I know they are original, though they were created by people proficient in kenjutsu.

>>1304173
Yeah, lets practice bunkai without teaching the proper way to execute the technique.

>>1304347
Your right that without proper know how the kata are not of much use, though I doubt the people in that video did not understand proper execution, alot of kendoka today probably do not.

but kendo like most gendai budo is a big tent so you have people who do know and care about such things

>>1304362
Thats like saying you get in kyokushin to practice kata. You get in kendo for the hits.

>>1304277
>>1304307
Having research those things a bit recently, the kendo kata are indeed original, though obviously, people who created them were all highly ranked in koryu kenjutsu. The three main koryu represented in the creation of the kendo kata in the early 1900's were Hokushin Itto-ryu, Shindo Munen-ryu and Jikishinkage-ryu, many more also participated.

Before that, an attempt of a unified set of kata was done for the tokyo metropolitan police in the 1880's :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KhtfZGKL24
Those ten kata are from ten various koryu styles that were asked to pick the "epitome" of their school to be taught to the police. Apparently, it's still taught and practiced but pretty much only in the tokyo police, alongside kendo. The original sets included four parts: kenjutsu, iaijutsu, jujutsu and specific arresting techniques, though only the two first are still known.

Another early attempt was a set of kata made by the Dai Nippon Butokukai in 1906 to create a proto-kendo kata set to be taught in schools. There were three techniques (ten, jin, chi; from jodan, chudan and gedan no kamae). But those were poorly received and never saw spreading. Only until the 1910's and the creation of the kendo kata, another attempt was made (succesfully).

>>1304435
And here's the list of the 10 techniques and schools for those interested by the Keishicho Kitachi Kata (and who don't precisely understand what the speaker is saying) :

1. Hasso: Jikishinage-ryu
2. Henka: Kurama-ryu
3. Hattengiri Giri: Tsutsumi Hozan-ryu
4. Maki Otoshi: Tatsumi-ryu
5. Gedan no Tsuki: Hokushin Itto-ryu
6. Aun: Asayama Ichiden-ryu
7. Ichi Ni no Tachi: Jigen-ryu
8. Uchi Otoshi: Shindo Munen-ryu
9. Haore: Yagy-ryu
10. Kuraizume: Kyoshin Meichi-ryu

One thing that's extremely interesting is that (iirc) Kyoshin Meichi-ryu is now extinct, this technique is now one of the very last practical thing we have left from this koryu, preserved in this set of techniques.

>>1304385
True, and as I said most kendo is not taught with any eye towards practicality, and even the kata are probably poorly understood in most dojo.

But with Japanese martial arts their is little black and white, everything tends to be grey

Hemafag reading here, please keep posting! This thread is really interesting to me

So I guess we can add iaido and how it is complete bullshit

>>1304570
Again, not really, there are elements of iaido that are less practical depending on the style.

For instance when I see Kaminoda doing iaido I see very little wrong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBWfMxX_WmA

>>1304564
Sometimes I think its time to consolidate the sword threads, but really its because you hema guys outnumber us 10/1.

>>1304173
Oh wow, interesting to see the small changes in the kata made over the years.

Anyone have opinions on Nakamura-ryu battojutsu?

>>1305175
I think its a mixed bag. They put to much emphasis on tamashigiri, I wouldn't call it bad persay, I would probably pick it over seitei iaido. wheither I would pick it over einshin ryu depends on the branches in question

I would say there mindset is probably more in keeping with western thinking than most koryu or iaido

File: tmp2553_thumb_thumb.jpg (73KB, 640x473px) Image search: [Google]

73KB, 640x473px

>>1305175
http://www.budojapan.com/special-article/toyama-ryu-iaido-studying-reality/

Here is an interesting review of a toyama ryu taikai with pictures I found. Toyama ryu and nakamura ryu are of course related styles. I dont agree with everything in it but I think you will see why I think the mindset is more western

Since there are ryuha that predate the katana, does that mean they were originally meant for tachi?

>>1308075
Originally yes, but there is not alot of difference in the use on foot once the sword is drawn. The tachi is worn edge down so batto is different, but otherwise the use is pretty much the same.

There are still a few ryuha that train with tachi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Tm42TP-ROk

>>1304471
I wonder about the utility of such a system. one of the benefits of koryu is there extreme internal consistency of principles. rather than just being a collection of effective techniques every kata is designed to fit a certain personally and way of moving. A collection taken from different ryu, even if selected for effectiveness, isn't going to have the same psychological impact

>>1308762
It was more of a compromise. The keishicho had teachers from all those traditions teaching their own take on things. They wanted to standardize the curriculum while still teaching the shinken shobu -aspect of swordsmanship instead of focusing just on gekken, so they put together a sampler so that no one would feel left out.

People from some of the represented traditions have commented that the basic shapes of the kata are familiar or even "correct" but the "taste" is totally strange to them, so the kata probably were somewhat fitted together (or have been naturally, over the years, without contact to the original traditions). Same as with ZNKR iai.

The advantage of kendo no kata is precisely that it was created from the beginning to represent the dogma of the then-emerging nationally standardized kendo. It might have been influenced by the koryu of the members of the committee, but it was specifically made to agree with the principles of shinai kendo (while still including aspects of actual swordsmanship).

>>1309424
>ave commented that the basic shapes of the kata are familiar or even "correct" but the "taste" is totally strange to them,

Yes, I noticed that they have a flavor similar to the kendo kata, though they seemed much more difficult than the modern set.

I assume most of the practitioners are also modern kendoka, so its probably been absorbed into a kendo framework over time.

>>1309667
>I assume most of the practitioners are also modern kendoka
Apparently, the Keisicho kata are only taught in the metropolitan police, where kendo is commonly known; the two people demonstrating in the video (>>1304435) are said to be 7th and 8th dan kendoka so your remark seems quite sensible.

About it being "more difficult", you got to remember those 10 kata were selected in 1886, when threats of being attacked by people armed with swords was still very realistic (especially in Japan) and when swords were seen as a middle ground between the pistols and the truncheon. So it's not really a surprise that the kata of the tokyo police were a bit more sophisticated, less simplified and thought to be used in actual combat, while the kendo kata has little use outside simple contest and can afford to be more simplistic.

>>1309693
>. So it's not really a surprise that the kata of the tokyo police were a bit more sophisticated, less simplified and thought to be used in actual combat, while the kendo kata has little use outside simple contest and can afford to be more simplistic.

To quibble with you here, I think the keisicho kata and the kendo kata have the same essential weakness, they display solid principles but do not elaborate on them in the way koryu would. ideally shinai keiko could fill in the gaps, allowing theory to be fully explored. But that is only true if shnai keiko is used as a tool for such things.

The keisicho, with its combination of kenjutsu, iai, and originally jujutsu gives a much more complete study of theory, but is still only a basis on which to be elaborated on by shiai.

Now such systems actually have the potential to be very strong, if they are trained in that manner.

Agree?

>>1304435
>dat move at 2:57
just like my animes

>>1315579
It's really not an uncommon thing to see, depending on the style; I found it done especially following horizontal cuts. It's sorta done in the kendo kata too (3:30 of >>1304173).

>>1314202
Well considering that the principal koryu (Jikishinkage-ryu and Hokushin Itto-ryu) summoned to create the Keishicho kata used shinai practice and were even key in the development of such practices, I don't see how this view of yours is to be questioned.

We also should remember that such practices and the development of the shinai was partly done to compensate the long due ending of wars and violent conflicts. The police however, was certainly expected to see regular violent encounters, much more than any koryu practitioner.

I don't think that the tokyo police kata were supposed to be a complete martial art system, just like the gunto no soho in that regard. They were more probably made to give a good overview of efficient techniques, rather than develop excellence. Nothing was preventing police officers to also train in a koryu by the way...
It's obvious that in the modern world the kata of koryu, early kendo or the old tokyo police wasn't practiced for the same ends, what's good for one isn't necessarily needed for another.

>>1316913
I would say there were still quite a few koryu getting into fights at that period. I'm in no way implying that shinai keiko styles are weaker, certainly by the bakumatsu they were often the preferred styles, at least for kenjutsu. but jikishinkage ryu and hokushin itto ryu both have very elaborate kata sets like the older styles.

>>1309693

The simpler, the more effective.

>>1318878
that's confusing kata with technique. a complicated for can impart one or several simple techniques

>>1315579
not that rare

does anyone do nitto around here?