Why No Temperate Apes?

I would assume it's because apes as they are don't have the thick fur other mammals have that would help them survive the colder climates, and they are very slow moving and slow to breed (very few offspring and long time to reach sexual maturity). Would take a veery long time for a population to evolve to adapt to colder climates.

Less cover and they move too slow. They're dead meat to large carnivores and given how long it takes them to breed and raise offspring, it ain't worth it. Tropics are also loaded with food and foraging is a breeze.

Basically everything above anon already said. I think a snowy great app would be boss but even mountainous animals are speedy, agile devils and food is hard to find.

>>2456170
>>2456176
Yeah, moving over ice would be beyond difficult for any of them. Some places in Europe and North America might have enough food, but there's still the problem of weather.

>>2456183
Not just ice but rocky surfaces and cliffs, too. Can you imagine trying to knuckle walk over that? Great apes aren't very dexterous or agile, meanwhile goats and snow leopards can survive a bad slip up and correct themselves before impact.

>>2456161
The trees are not like jungles also way less fruit so they are fucked. Notice you cant find any arboreal creatures with stretched limbs in temperate areas. The only temperate primates would be land animals that would have to mutate away their simian traits to survive better on the ground.

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>>2456216
Let me introduce my favorite primate. They can run up to 34 mph, avoid dense forestry and prefer open savannahs and deserty areas. They are built for the ground rather than arboreal movement. They are mostly quadrupedal but will stand up to look for predators or if they are carrying something.

Sure they still live in Africa and there's plenty of primates there but they're pretty unique with this. They're basically cheetahs of the primate world and outside of tropics, I could see primates with similar adaptations living well in temperate or colder zones if they are relatively free of predators.

The way I see it is that primates rely on dense jungles because the abundance of food and shelter, and just didn't evolve away from them because that's what worked out for them. Also because besides humans and lemurs I see next to jack shit about prehistoric primates so I don't even know if any others were just as open-land ground dwelling.

>>2456216
>>2456227
Gorillas are built for life on the ground, but there's still the problem of food. I suppose a temperate ape would have to eat like a bear: primarily carnivorous, but willing to eat anything really.

>>2456250
Geladas are terrestrial and graminivorous and gorillas eat non-fruit plants as well. There's always insects too.

Also black bear diet is like 90% vegetation. Plants, roots and berries. Brown bears slightly less, I think. Especially since they are fishers if they live where the salmon are.

So food doesn't seem like it would be a problem if they were somewhere like North America(excluding Florida) and adapted to eat our vegetation. Winter on the other hand hits things like bears and deer pretty hard sometimes.
Predators on the other hand.. Wolves, coyotes, mountain lions, maybe bears. For monkeys, there's a shit ton of birds of prey.

>>2456260
>Predators on the other hand.. Wolves, coyotes, mountain lions, maybe bears. For monkeys, there's a shit ton of birds of prey.
So, slightly different versions of predators that they already have, except for bears. Is gorilla or orangutan hair a poor insulator? In the case of Orangutans, it looks more like it's for directing rain off the body.

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>>2456329
>So, slightly different versions of predators that they already have
I suppose, but their predators are adapted for thick, dense jungles and predators like the harpy eagle needs that size to carry monkeys. Great horned owls and golden eagles should be able to tackle them.

To be terrestrial out in the open they would have to be very fast, and maybe large like a gorilla but size alone I think would be too risky if they can't get to cover from at least wolves since I don't think even a pack of coyotes would tangle with something like a gorilla. Family groups would also benefit a lot but I'm thinking of animals like bison, and despite their size, aggression, power and numbers they still get hunted(even though its at a very low success rate).

>Is gorilla or orangutan hair a poor insulator?
Yes. At least according to The Physiological Ecology of Vertebrates: A View from Energetics.
>Nakedness in humans may have reduced a heat load produced by a combination of a tropical distribution, moderate size, and a high level of activity. It also conforms to a scaling relationship in primates whereby the density of the fur coat decreases with surface area and therefore with mass. Great apes larger than humans (gorilla and orangutan) have fur coats of low density and are sedentary and vegetarian.

Though I'm honestly not sure about ones like pic related but I'll say its not enough without an undercoat. It's males who get this shaggy(and depends on what species of orangutan) but looking at multiple pictures - you can see their skin when the hair parts. I think it being long and thick probably does help redirect rain but it doesn't look very insulating. I've never felt an orangutan or gorilla's fur before, but I do have some vervet monkey and colobus monkey fur. Colobus monkey feels just like straight, smooth human hair if not a little thicker.

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>>2456358
Adding on-
Looking close at orangutans you can definitely see its not that the fur is so bundled together, but it just grows down and overlaps.

But like us and them, we don't have the undercoat like wolves, dogs, musk ox, polar bears, etc do which is critical for thermoregulation for mammals exposed to winter temperatures or aquatic mammals. Not only does it keep them warm, the outercoat helps repel water and keep a layer of air between the undercoat and skin which also helps them cool down in summers (which is why you don't shave huskies).

Now japanese macaques and golden snub nosed monkeys do have undercoats and from what I remember they are the only 'winter' primates today. Fur aside, they sleep in groups for warm about med-level of trees instead of the canopy or tops to avoid direct wind and snow. They would not survive these -20 °C temperatures if they had the 'usual' primate fur.

I would guess because they largely eat fruits and vegetables. In the north theres not a lot of anything to eat besides animals and pine cones.

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Checkmate, atheists.

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>>2456406
Fun fact: They learned to seek warmth in hot springs in the 50s from humans. They were already adapted for the cold and it's a luxury for them. Not all of them get to join either and instead sit around looking sad.

They also have culture. Different groups have accents and behaviors that were passed down from their families and observation. They have cultures and an infant monkey taught everyone how to wash sweet potatoes.

Pic sorta related, as it's the other species of monkey that lives in the snow.

>>2456161
>What are Europoids

>>2456406
They are japanese right?
I guess an island makes it easier.
What are/were their predators?
I know Japan have bears and had wolves but nothing else.
>>2456422
Where are they from?
I'm very tired right now and google gave me nothing in 5s.

>>2456406
>monkeys
>apes

>>2456453
>Excluding the genus Homo, of course
Did you even read before posting?

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>>2456458
China. All the snub nosed monkeys are but these are the cooler ones. They're kind of frightening.

>>2456469
I want to pet them.

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>>2456481

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>>2456497
dat powder blue nip

>>2456227
The hands are a liability it needs to mutate back claws to hold on to prey easily and probably stretch out its jaw to bite prey easier. Primates are junglefags carnivorans beat them in the ground predator department.

Though the primates developing sloped bipedalism would make their hands really useful

>>2456422
>monkeys that live in cold are smarter
What did nature mean by this?

Great apes are almost always herbivorous or very slight omnivores. They need regions of dense foliage so they can maintain their bulk. Non-homo great apes existed outside of the Equatorial region when the climate was warmer and wetter and supported more intensive vegetarian as compared to the multiple sparse vegetation arid steppes with Eurasia today. They all died out through the last glacial period, with Gigantopithecus perhaps being the last to fall. Only one genus of scrawnier scavenger apes with a taste for meat manage to weather the storm to produce modern homo where all else failed, and even why we did is still a matter of considerable debate.

>>2456519
real snownigga hours

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>>2456469
I think they're cool looking.

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>>2456161
>Why No Temperate Apes
what the fuck do you call this then?

Apes used to live in Europe during the Miocene period, but the second it got too cold they either fled to Asia or went extinct.

>>2456519
This is a general rule in evolution. Asian elephants are smarter than African elephants, for example.

>>2456777
No it isn't a general rule of evolution. Compare a chimpanzee or a bonobo's intelligence to a gibbon and see where that gets you. Not even the orangutan is without its faults compared to the Pan genus.

>>2456779
Gibbons don't live in the snow, idiot.

Winter makes you plan for the future. It does foster intelligence.

>>2456742
A hoax

>>2456742
There is no reason for an ape to have human-looking feet and a protruding nose.

>>2456742
husbando

>>2456161
in japan macaques live even in snow

>>2456930
>Great Apes

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>>2457065

>>2456930
Himalayan golden snubbed nose monkey too.

>>2456161
Because they are extinct. It is believed that hybridization with neanderthalensis tipped modern evolution towards temperate climate survival. The fossil record shows hundreds or species of apes in temperate regions of the planet. Extinction is a bitch.

>>2457078
That looks terrifying. Like it was shooped by some deranged person.

>>2457093
Homo sapiens neanderthalensis only interbred with Homo sapiens sapiens. I'm asking about non-Homo anthropoid apes.

>>2456930
Apes are literally built for jungles, monkeys can live outside the jungle as long as their limbs arent too used to trees. Apes are so shit at locomotion outside jungles that they had to mutate bipedalism to survive the savanna.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIorGPb3nqA

What is the best great ape, and why is it bonobos?

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>>2457126
That's a 4 weeks old pigmy marmoset, in here we still had organ grinders that had those monkeys that danced with the music and predicted your fortune by choosing a card.

Parrots were better soathsayers tough, monkey predictions are usually wrong.

>>2457204
>Ayy lmao

>>2457204
This combination of hands, eyes, and mouths is spooky.

>>2456161
Humans are the temperate apes

>>2457204
>in here we still had organ grinders that had those monkeys that danced with the music and predicted your fortune by choosing a card.
what the actual fuck are you talking about?

>>2457226
Read the OP faggot

>>2456783
Neither do Asian elephants. There are many examples of tropical or even temperate animals being more intelligent than their northern peers, it's not black and white.

>>2457157
>sapiens neanderthalenis

We could barely breed with them without problems, they were a different albeit similar species.

>>2457226
Humans are still a tropical species. If modern humans evolved in Europe instead of Africa like Neanderthals did, we would look more like Neanderthals. Even the palest Swede with a long thin nose better suited for cool weather is less adapted to the cold than your average Neanderthal Joe.

>>2457226
No humans are tropical apes, we still have tropical features like stretched out limbs and agile bodies. Actual temperate apes like Homo Denisova and Neanderthals had short limbs and bulky shapes which gave them terrible agility.

>>2457241
This is still the subject of ongoing debate. Considering how widespread their genes are in sapiens sapiens, I doubt they were a separate species. However, they were clearly specialized for a cold habitat.

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>>2457242
>>2457248
Reminds me of the aquatic ape theory that fatties use as an excuse. Pretty sure no one does anymore but it's still funny.

>>2457263
fuck, i remember hearing this shit a good decade or two ago, except it was as an explanation for why women had long hair (so babies could hold on to it) whereas man had shorter hair. i thought it was neat at the time but i now see it as hilariously incorrect.

>>2457275
>Women had long hair (so babies could hold on to it) whereas man had shorter hair.

The fuck? Aquatic apes sounds more solid than that. It's just fashion. But to be very, very slightly fair babies have oddly strong grips. I read some articles on it but I forgot everything it said. Is it one of those 'left overs'? I wouldn't trust a baby to hang onto something longer than a few seconds and even then I'd keep my hands under it.

Also makes me wonder how our ancestors carried their babies besides holding them. Like did they make some sort of baby backpack or tied a bunch of branches together to drag shit along on moving day.

>>2456827
Human feet are a natural development of ape feet focused around bipedalism so it's likely other apes would have similar feet if they were bipedal also

And in cold climates a big nose is good to warm the air

>>2456519
Harder to survive means more planning and higher intelligence

>>2457275
>Why women have long hair
But that's just fashion? Men can grow equally long hair and have at many times in history

>>2457303
A sling maybe like some Africa. Tribeswomen do?

>>2456358
This is going to sound ridiculous but gorilla hair feels like human pubic hair but a little more coarse.

>>2457381
Yeah, maybe. Indians had them too. I'm not sure when our babies in our evolution line ended up not being able to grasp to their mothers so readily either, which I'd think it would be neat to learn about. You don't hear about babies getting dug up but basing my facts on trying to clean newborn goat skull, they're so soft they just fall apart so I guess human baby bones wouldn't last long enough

>>2457475
I believe it. I thought tigers, leopards and cheetahs were soft but having pet pelts before the fur is so coarse it's almost like a soft plastic. Even the tiger cubs my gf got to pet she said they weren't very soft. I mentioned before I have some colobus monkey fur and it feels like straight, thick human hair. Like a wig or when my black friend straightened his afro once.

Did you pet a gorilla?

>>2457481
Sorta, but I wish it had been a different situation. I spent some time in Angola with a research group. A lowland gorilla had caught its foot in a snare and died, and I was helping get it into a trailer.

>>2457488
It's cool you got to touch one and see you close but that fucking sucks, anon. What did they do with the body? Burial, cremation, went to science, etc? Yeah, poaching sucks but with gorillas it hits me a little harder than others. Probably also because I've read a few things about how tough and dangerous it is for African rangers, and with gorillas they seem to act like it's a lost cause but they keep on trying anyway.

What's your job and were you researching gorillas specifically? I'm just curious. This might as well be the new ape general.

>>2457492
I was actually there collecting plant samples for pharmaceutical stuff. The people who organize everything try to condense the groups that get sent out to minimize impact, cost, danger etc. It wasn't uncommon for me to be with ecologists, entomologists, etc.
The primate people said any time they hear about a dead gorilla they try to get it so they can do necropsies and track diseases, etc. The couple rangers who were with us were saying that apes are really hard for them because they're so similar to humans.

>>2456161
>Why No Temperate Apes?
>Excluding the temperate apes, of course.

>>2457261
Not denying that, as seen here >>2457242. I wonder how their Asian spinoff species/subspecies the Denisovans fared.

Related question- any theory why humans developed infinitely growing hair only on our scalps?

>>2457573
Probably to cool us down. Sweating cools us but it's that's useless in thick hair. It didn't happen until our ancestors developed bipedalism. At least that was the main excuse last time I checked.

Check out 'werewolf syndrome'. It might be some sort of atavistic mutation in that it's an 'ancient gene' we still have.

>>2457573
Yeah it probably has to do with the sun shining on your head

>>2457375
I mean it's just strange that every ape outside our genus with preserved feet in the fossil record has an opposed big toe, while whatever you think Biggie Feets are don't.

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>>2457204
Red-shanked doucs are kind of pretty to me. They look like they're just wearing some japanese performance costume and makeup.

>>2457899
>>2457204
It looks like Brendan Fraser.

>>2456784
(you)

>>2457502
well, there's only one presently existing species within the the homo genus, but there's a lot more presently existing apes

>>2456742
>breasts
>hoax

>>2457573
>what is genetic length

>>2457573
Cooling for head hair and selection for facial and body hair.

>>2457580
Of it were atavism, I think it would give us hair in all the same places as other apes. People with werewolf syndrome get it EVERYWHERE, even on the entire nose and ears.

>>2459694
I don't know because I haven't studied genetics.

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>>2459765
Might not be actually werewolf syndrome but I've known two people who just had these patches of fur. It was gross as fuck. Like 4+ inches of just random, thick furry patches.

I also don't know when we started growing beards. Maybe females had them too.

>>2456161
One of the biggest obstacles in my opinion to monkeys in general settling in colder climates is the lack of vitamin-C rich food sources.
All monkeys cannot produce vitamin C, so the lack of fruit for almost half of the year could be pretty detrimental to their survival, especially since winter is very stressful.

>>2456176
they wouldn't be dead meat if they learned how to create and use spears

>>2459786
Yeah, those are basically giant birthmarks. As for facial hair, Orangutans have pretty sweet mustache and goatee combos, but all anthropoid apes lack hair on the upper part of the face.
>>2461143
Vitamin C may be obtained from a variety of evergreen plants, including conifers.

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>>2456422
>>2456406

>>2457240
>it's not black and white
But it is, spearchucker

>>2456161

Hungry neanderthals, hungry homo sapiens, not enough food in the winter.

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>>2463455
>Implying there are/were no hungry Homo sapiens in the tropics

>>2456216
There's the japanese monkeys. They have thick fur to survive the winters and they enjoy bathing in the hot springs. Though, I think only females and the young get to bathe in the hot springs.

>>2463523
Goes by rank. And they learned to bathe in hot springs from humans. I remember reading that the hot springs we're actually altered by people because they were originally too hot for people and monkeys to bathe in without cooking.