Cows and people that support them

It's pretty fucking cruel yet our society basically needs the slaughter to remain functioning without disturbances to regular normie life.

>>2378699
What aspects do you consider cruel?

>>2378697
Hello! I'm neither for nor against farms. I don't know much about them in general, so i'd like to learn more. I believe that using animals for products is perfectly fine as long as they are treated ethically and don't suffer.

Are cows on dairy farms treated well? Do they have clean space to graze and roam? What happens when they get old? What happens to their calves?

>>2378700
Bad conditions for the animals, bad treatment by emotionally and mentally stunted industrial farm workers.

>>2378702
there's quite a few different documentaries about this stuff on Netflix. but the treatment of animals depends on what country you are from.

>>2378702
>Are cows on dairy farms treated well?
This depends on the farm and the owners. Just like pet owners each farmer treats them different. The farm I work on now is great when it comes to that. They have told people to not hit cows or they will be fired, it was seen on the cameras. I have pets among the herd who I interact with when getting cows in. For example, an old cow #50 likes her face petted. White power likes the spot where her horn nubbins are scratched. I am a milker, should mention that.

>Do they have clean space to graze and roam?
They live in barns here, the pens are bedded with fresh sand once a week. They are essentially neets. Some farms have pastures for dry cows and heifers.

>What happens when they get old?
Unfortunately the answer is they are sold as cull cows. Unless they die naturally, I have seen them literally drop dead from heart attacks.

>What happens to their calves?
They are given a pen in the calf barn where they receive their shots. Then they are fed by the calf barn girls, a bunch of highschool girls who want to work with baby animals.

>>2378703
>Bad conditions for the animals,
On a good farm this is not the case, cow comfort is extremely important. A happy cow produces more and is healthier.

>bad treatment by emotionally and mentally stunted industrial farm workers.
How much experience do you have with real world farms?

>>2378702
>Do they have clean space to graze and roam?
Forgot to mention the guy who brings the cattle to the milking parlor cleans out the shit in the stalls while bringing them in. He then scrapes all of the manure out of the barn while we are milking them and the barn is empty.

>>2378705
Thank you for the answers. I would love to be able to support good farms, but how do I know which ones are? Would I have to go to specialty stores and pay a lot more?

>calf barn girls, a bunch of highschool girls who want to work with baby animals
Lol that sounds pretty great actually. What do they feed them? Is it cheaper and easier than just letting them nurse from their moms? Do the female calves grow up to be dairy cows? Are the males sold somewhere? What are cull cows?

Not /an/ related, but I think it's horseshit to see these giant ranch mansions, then a field full of messicans, and way off into the dirt roads are their shitty camper homes. I'm surprised that more ranchers don't get Charles Manson'd.

>>2378708
>Thank you for the answers. I would love to be able to support good farms, but how do I know which ones are? Would I have to go to specialty stores and pay a lot more?
The good farmers ship to the same place as the bad. Just buy milk. Fortunately most bad farmers are just bad people and ruin themselves. In my experience it is usually the ones who inherited the farm and have a sense of entitlement and superiority which drives good workers away. It is really easy to go from one farm to another, usually openings because people start their own business, move, go to jail, can't handle the conditions, get injured/die, or just move on. With the ease of movement comes the congregation of like minded workers. I went from a bad farm to this one then told my friends who also came here.

>calf barn girls, a bunch of highschool girls who want to work with baby animals
Lol that sounds pretty great actually. What do they feed them? Is it cheaper and easier than just letting them nurse from their moms?
At first a cow gives a thick cream called clostrum which is like super milk. We collect this for the first milking or two. Then they feed the calf's milk replacer. It is not logistically feasible to feed them mother's milk.

>Do the female calves grow up to be dairy cows?
Yes

>Are the males sold somewhere?
Yes, they get sold at the stockyards. Most get raised as beef. Some are raised and sold as breeders.

>What are cull cows?
Cows that are not pulling their weight due to injury, old age, or other factors. They end up as burgers I believe.

>>2378710
I am up north so do not know much about ranches. Mexicans up here are not being hired near as much, between the language barrier and being shitty workers there is not much demand for them lately. Especially with the crackdown on illegals. My uncle used to house them behind his house to pick pickles until one of them caught another with his girl and killed them both. Then he said fuck that and bought a machine to replace them.

>>2378714
>Just buy milk
My family buys Alta Dena or some big brand like that, Is that okay? Do you think it supports ethical practices?

Again, thanks for all of the answers anon. I'm learning a lot of interesting stuff and I always enjoy getting a perspective from someone in a position you wouldn't usually expect on 4chan. How did you get into the business? Do you enjoy it? What are your future plans?

>>2378722
>My family buys Alta Dena or some big brand like that, Is that okay? Do you think it supports ethical practices?
Yeah, our milk goes to cheese and dairy pure here. The milk processors honestly don't care about farm conditions other than quality. To have high quality milk though you need clean facilities and good management.

>Again, thanks for all of the answers anon. I'm learning a lot of interesting stuff and I always enjoy getting a perspective from someone in a position you wouldn't usually expect on 4chan. How did you get into the business? Do you enjoy it? What are your future plans?
My grandparents owned a dairy farm. My father worked on farms and drove truck until I was in 4th grade then he started his own farm. He sold the farm a couple years ago and moved, now owns a beef farm. I have been bouncing around farms since then. It is a fallback job, working with cattle is a learned skill. I don't really enjoy milking because it is very repetitive and boring. I like cows, however, working with them does get old. Did you know they will intentionally shit and piss to try to scare you away from them? You can tell how people treat cows by how much shit hits the ground when they walk into the holding pen, no joke. My future plan is to start a company creating automated systems. I am a programmer on my off time.

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>>2378722
Also, this is what a milking parlor looks like.

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>>2378729
Empty holding pen

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>>2378730
Milker on a cow.

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>>2378732
And a cow that wanted my sandwich.

>>2378727
Do cows like being milked? I heard it feels good for them, and some places have fully automated machines that the cows can walk into themselves.

>>2378733
Daww

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>>2378736
>Do cows like being milked? I heard it feels good for them, and some places have fully automated machines that the cows can walk into themselves.
I am not sure, all I see are legs and udders which are not very expressive. I know some don't, however, I think it is more that they don't like humans touching them and attaching things. Some come in and stand still the entire time, some rock back and forth while others try to kick you. I do know it seems to be uncomfortable if they don't get milked. If a cow that is new is freaked out and won't let you milk her then the next time in they seem to calm down after a few minutes and watch you warily.
The robot milkers are real, even here the first couple strings of each yard come in voluntarily.

>>2378697
I don't eat from factory farms because that's fucking disgusting. I get half a cow every year from my brother in law, and that's enough cow for me.

I do think that it would be more efficient if the world made a move towards more of a factory farmed insect based diet than a pig and cow one. Not that pigs and cows shouldn't be eaten, I just think it's stupidly expensive to have them as the staple.

>>2378743
>I don't eat from factory farms because that's fucking disgusting. I get half a cow every year from my brother in law, and that's enough cow for me.
I am not familiar with factory farms, the only beef farms I know of pasture the cattle. I agree that store bought tastes like shit, I think our best meat gets exported.

>I do think that it would be more efficient if the world made a move towards more of a factory farmed insect based diet than a pig and cow one. Not that pigs and cows shouldn't be eaten, I just think it's stupidly expensive to have them as the staple.
There are definitely more cost effective food sources, however, good luck overcoming the taboo and culture. We will probably see bug farms during the space age when efficiency Trump's personal biases.

>>2378743
Yeah nah, fuck that, I'm not eating insects.

>>2378704
>Basing worldview on information from ((((Netflix))))
Found the problem

>>2378703

It ain't nearly as bad as the emotionally and mentally stunted individuals who post about it online make it out to be. If you really want to end almost 100% of animals on industrial farms then close the fucking borders. Every time I see an animal getting treated rough it's by a dirty spic. In reality the cows are treated extremely well because a happy cow is a healthy cow and because those fuckers will remember being treated bad and no one wants an outlaw.

t. Guy who's spent the last six years working on a cow/calf operation.

>>2378749
>the only beef farms I know of pasture the cattle.

That's because (at least around here) cows are a way of turning land you can't farm into money via grass. Most people think of beef farming as feedlots and slaughter houses, but in reality that's just the end of a very long story because they taste like shit without corn, but it's not economically feasible to grain them that hard for their entire life.

>>2378708
>he wants to date high schoolers

Stunted manlet detected.

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>>2378702
See pic related, look at the countries, most of them provide very poor conditions in every aspect.

>>2378859
>it's not bad when it's good
>when it's bad it's them so it's ok

>>2378981
Your stats say nothing about the conditions, just the beef turn out.

>>2378705
> White power likes the spot where her horn nubbins are scratched
How did this cow earn the name White Power?

>>2378981
>when it's bad it's them so it's ok

I never said that, abuse is never OK. I am saying that almost 100% of the time there is no mistreatment, and on the rare case there is, it's a criminal who was hired because he works for peanuts. If you want to stop mistreatment then you need to stop illegals who account for 99.9999% of abuse. The problem is that people like you NEED someone to abuse the stock, you get off on it. You have to have a video of a cow being pushed over so you can point to it and say "see, it's all like that, aren't I such a good person for opposing it".

If we were to fix everything you claim to have a problem with today cattle related or otherwise, you would have a new list of complaints ready in hand tomorrow.

>>2378996
I never said they did.
I'm just pointing out that most of the meat in the world come from places where good practices are not enforced and most of their animals (and humans) don't receive proper living conditions.
It's wishful thinking to say most meat come from happy farms with happy cows and happy meat.

>>2379015
>The problem is that people like you NEED someone to abuse the stock, you get off on it. You have to have a video of a cow being pushed over so you can point to it and say "see, it's all like that, aren't I such a good person for opposing it".
>If we were to fix everything you claim to have a problem with today cattle related or otherwise, you would have a new list of complaints ready in hand tomorrow.
I think you are the one hunting an invisible enemy. There is nothing on my post that implies any of this.
Go, go! Don Quixote!

>>2378914
Wut. I'm saying it would be fun to take care of a bunch of baby cows every day. I'm also girl.

>>2378697
Cows are uma delicia

>>2378715

Can we discuss This post?

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>>2378722

Dude.

Strauss creamery is in my area and their dairy products are God damn fantastic

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>>2378749
People ate chicken nuggets even when they believed it was made from pic related. You make it cheap, make it taste good, call it chicken and you're done.

>>2378743
>I do think that it would be more efficient if the world made a move towards more of a factory farmed insect based diet than a pig and cow one.

My nigga.

informational, thank you OP

>>2379191
What's that if not nuggz, then?

>>2379280
>>2379191
Nobody online seems to know.
That's not what MSM looks like, anyway, and why would they dispense it into a cardboard box?

I know this link is double cancer, but it's funny. Just read it.
https://m.imgur.com/gallery/IObQF

My area must be weird. It's hard to get milk that isn't from one of the localish dairy farms, and I'm in Michigan.

>>2379004
She is a white cow that is dominant in the herd and don't take shit from the other cows. Has no fear of humans either, she runs up to you and holds her forehead against your side while shaking her head. The only cow I have seen that seems to understand we are fragile. So she is a white alpha cow, and being a white powerful cow I called her white power.

When it comes to the cows pecking order interestingly enough, the alpha cows are not necessarily the biggest. Many times they are smaller, it's all about their attitude and who is willing to go the furthest during the fights.

>>2379311
Do cows have best friends?

>>2378859
>Every time I see an animal getting treated rough it's by a dirty spic.
In the UK it's muslim, chinese, and jewish communities that slaughter them painfully to "bring out the flavour" (halal slaughter)

>>2379053
Go to a dairy farm and tell them you are interested in being a calf feeder. Do not wear good clothes. Make sure you have a way to get there reliably and are willing to show up on time. Don't play on your phone or cause drama and you are set. Around here the farms are rather informal and family run. There is no formal hiring procedure at the farms around here, just go and talk to people until you find someone in charge of something. You can go to the milking parlor, usually the centerpiece of the farm, and ask the milkers where the calf barn is and what time they are around. See if they know when the bosses are around. They are liable to be rough looking people but we are usually welcoming of visitors, it is a break from monotony. You'll probably have to try a couple times before you find one hiring. It is the easiest job on the farm so it is usually filled. If you are in school they will work around that. If you are too young to work you will get paid under the table depending on the boss. You may meet some assholes but don't get discouraged, remember that farmers are just people and some are nice and some are not. If the farm has broken shit and garbage laying around though keep going, usually a sign of bad leaders. If you are a young girl you will get to meet real farmboys, it is not uncommon to have young guys working alongside adults. I was feeding cows and working fields at 12. Just don't go full lololol imma country gurl buy camo everything, be normal and don't try to be something you are not. The best way to earn respect on a farm is to do your best to learn how and why stuff is done, be willing to work WITHOUT COMPLAINING, don't cause drama, and take responsibility for anything you do wrong. Good luck if you choose this path. If nothing else you will learn a lot.

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>>2379301
Tri cities here, as far as I know all our milk in the stores is local. Dairy pure, great value, Meijer, and most are contracted through MMPA iirc.

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>>2379312
They seem to. It is not uncommon to see two cows that always seem to be together.

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>>2379182
What about it would you like to discuss?

>>2379191
Yeah, you just can't tell them until after they get used to eating it. Even then the stigma against bugs is huge. I don't have a problem with it personally though.

>>2379330
There's a working petting zoo I live near, and there's an alpaca, a goat, and a barn cat that are never out of sight of each other, except when they go to sleep.
It's like a Disney movie.

>>2379318
>>2379015
>>2378859
I was not racist until I worked with illegals, I don't know if they are the white trash version of mexicans or what the deal is but if they started hiring them here I would quit. They lower the standards of the whole facility. For example, at the last place I worked everything was cleaned in the parlor everyday. Mexicans came in, refused to clean more than bare minimum and the place became a shithole. After a while of cleaning up your mess and theirs you said fuck it. They skipped every corner available, production tanked, scc went through the roof, mastitis was out of control because they did not administer treatments, and they somehow infested the place with cockroaches.

>>2379276
You are welcome, anything you want to know?

For you city people what is the general opinion of dairy farms in you area?

>>2379336
My tomcat has befriended my sister horse, he will go into the horse pen and they will touch faces then wander around together. The other horse he avoids because it is legit retarded and rams him into the ground with it's sniffer everytime it sees him.

>>2379343
Aside from one farm owner being a massive faggot, they're all pretty chill. Most of them are over a century old and still family owned. They have tours and stuff and one has an ice cream parlor.

>>2379339
I would also like to add something I have noticed with workers. It is not that they are bad people usually that harm the animals. It is that they don't know how, I have yet to see people get trained in how to work with the cows. Most don't understand cattle or seem to make an effort too. They are stuck on lvl 1 cow control which is scare cows to make them go. The only ones who get past this are the ones raised around them, or who make an effort to understand why the animal does what it does. Even the people raised around them sometimes don't get it. I think that instead of trying to enforce bullshit control laws like don't hit cattle, don't tell at cattle, don't whistle at cattle, etc. It would be much more effective to create training programs on how to work with cattle and teach people.

What people don't seem to realize is that hitting cows with your bare hand will injure you and not hurt them. We are literally like kittens next to a dog. They are incredibly sturdy creatures. Think of it like kittens and dogs, you pat a dog on its side as a gesture of good will, but the same amount of force with a kitten would crush it. You know what's cows method of playing is? Headbutts, a cow playing rams it's playmate, I have been in scary situations when a pet decided it wanted to play, it meant no harm but it can seriously injure you without trying. That being said beating sticks being banned is a good thing.

>>2379362
>>2379362

I wouldn't be surprised if it was just all subjective. I worked with a lot of migrant and non-migrant workers and the non-migrants were by far the trashiest, dumbest, rudest bunch of fools I've ever seen, with most of the migrant workers being clean, professional, and hardworking af.

I mention this because I agree with this part completely:
>It is not that they are bad people usually that harm the animals. It is that they don't know how,

Because a lot of the non-migrant folks mentioned weren't bad people per se, they just treated animals like goddamn sociopaths, you could tell they were never raised with the concept of compassion for other living things.

>>2379321
Thank you for all of the info! I've been out of high school for a few years and I live in the city of Los Angeles, but I've been looking into starter jobs or volunteering. I'll definitely keep something like that in mind.

>I was feeding cows and working fields at 12
That sounds adorable. I bet it was hard work though.

>>2379488
lol don't believe that for a second. Mexicans don't understand anything and just fuck up everything. laziest bunch of fucks I have ever met. They're the epitome of shit work, I have to double check everything and usually they do it wrong, if they did it.

>you know that thing we're going to KILL?
>ya please treat it nicely before you KILL it
>I wouldn't want to project my own conscious understanding of pain onto this animal BEFORE we KILL it

I'll never understand this. If you're a hard vegetarian that strays from meat because of something like this, I'll give your argument a legitimate consideration for debate.

If you have no problem eating a McDonald's Big Mac after saying this, please go fuck yourself to the high heavens.

>>2379532
Thanks for that anecdote, Cletus.
>>2379534
Fuck off.
You're killing it, not torturing it (hopefully.)
For the purpose of this thread, it's death is a necessity, it's suffering is not.

>>2379535
>You're killing it, not torturing it (hopefully.)
Oh ok ya killing it is ok, but let's make sure it lives in a fucking mansion.

The animal that you are going to consume after slaughtering it. Let's just make sure it feels nice and cozy while you completely schedule and deadline its destiny.

>>2379536
You might be the most willfully retarded poster I've ever seen on 4chan. That's an accomplishment.

inb4 le Molyneux face

>>2379539
>I am ok with killing an animal as a normative need but only if the animal is sufficiently granted a happy and peaceful life

So, you are completely ok with killing an animal for your own personal gain, but because of your ability to emotional empathize with other beings, even though they lack a meaningful consciousness to gauge what's occurring, you would like for these animals to be treated as the normal house pet would?

You've no qualms about ending a being's fucking existence, but because of some weird desire to humanize existence of other animals that are literally being raised for slaughter, that you care enough about the conditions these animals are raised in.

Sure, ending its fucking existence is ok but only if its living a happy fulfilling life. Then I'll eat the burned ground remains of it in peace. Psychopath.

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>>2379501
>Thank you for all of the info! I've been out of high school for a few years and I live in the city of Los Angeles, but I've been looking into starter jobs or volunteering. I'll definitely keep something like that in mind.
You are welcome. One of the bonuses is that it is easy to get a farm job. Once you have worked there it is easier to get jobs in other places because farms have the hard work thing going for them.

>>I was feeding cows and working fields at 12
>That sounds adorable. I bet it was hard work though.
Imagine getting home from school, changing your clothes, eating supper and heading outside to do chores every night. If lucky you get done around 8 or 9. If there is anything going on like repairs you may not get done until much later. Snow days were wood cutting days. The Summers were raising steers for the fair, fieldwork, and any big projects like building barns. My jobs in the field were cutting hay, picking corn, raking hay, hauling wagons, and when chopping I blew feed into silos. If I ever die and go to hell I will be in a hay silo.

>>2379543
You're the reason people make fun of morality vegans, you know.

It's not for 'my gain,' it's for survival, like it or not.
I don't eat much meat, it's probably less than the 'recommended' amount. When I go hunting, I don't shoot a deer 8 times in the asshole because it's fun.
I shoot it once, and it dies immediately.
I don't think animals in most cases feel pain the same way we do, but they definitely can recognize an unpleasant stimulus they would like less of. I'm not humanizing anything.

It's a necessary evil, even for vegans. Until folks start gardening in their yards like myself and hopefully you, farming of animals and plants will continue to be pretty goddamn destructive.

>>2379545
I wanted to work on a farm. Really, really bad.
Apparently I'm kinda allergic to hay, and I don't fancy wearing a nuisance mask in 90°, 70% humidity weather.
:(

>>2379488
>I wouldn't be surprised if it was just all subjective. I worked with a lot of migrant and non-migrant workers and the non-migrants were by far the trashiest, dumbest, rudest bunch of fools I've ever seen, with most of the migrant workers being clean, professional, and hardworking af.
Sorry but I am inclined to not believe you. You are painting both sides too good and too bad. I have met shitty whites, however, I have never met a clean illegal. Unless you have completely different people where you are I seriously doubt they were everything you claim. For one thing farms are the most unprofessional environments I have ever worked at. And they are shitty workers. Some are ok, but the majority are terrible. I think most young people are shitty workers as well, but they are usually clean.

>>It is not that they are bad people usually that harm the animals. It is that they don't know how,

>Because a lot of the non-migrant folks mentioned weren't bad people per se, they just treated animals like goddamn sociopaths, you could tell they were never raised with the concept of compassion for other living things.
You misunderstood, I mean that they don't understand how to get the animals to do what they want which leads to frustration. Frustration leads to panic in the animal, which leads to frustration eventually leading to ugly situations. It's not about compassion, it's about limiting frustration due to ignorance of the animals behavior patterns. Also, the illegals were the reason the yardmen had the rakes taken away that they used to take the shit out of the stalls because the Mexicans were beating the cows with them.

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>>2379548
Shame to here that, damn near everywhere on a farm you encounter hay.

>>2379535
Cows do not live what would be even close to what we consider a comfortable life by our standards. By a cows standards though it is generally pretty good assuming the owner and workers are decent people. Cow comfort is a huge thing, luckily for them it offers financial incentives to the farmers.

Happy cows:
>Are more disease resistant, saving medical costs
>Infections of the udder called mastitis (a blanket term for any infection of the udder), are less which gives better quality milk which leads to a bonus on the milk check if the farmers milk company does that.
>Eat more
>A cow that eats more produces more
>Drinks more
>A cow that drinks more produces more
>Produces more milk in general.

It is like someone who is a happy person vs a depressed person.

>>2379564
I know that, it's the vegan nut who probably doesn't lol

>>2379300
http://www.snopes.com/food/prepare/msm.asp
Apparently it's actually chicken, but the bits not for human consumption and used in pet food.
Nuggets are supposed to be 100% white meat.
Probably in the box for a demonstration or another.

>>2379579
I'm amazed that didn't show up on RIS.
Huh.
Thank you!

>>2379333
I think the biggest obstacle would be presentation and texture. If you could crunch bugs into an unrecognizable paste and make it into patties, I'm sure some people would try it just because they were curious. Maybe if they even like it, it would spread from there. Another factor is it's supposed to be very cheap compared to cow and pig and chicken.

>cow thread
>nobody posted this
Like, hello?
https://exhentai.org/g/770213/d96589343b/

>>2379643
Tasty, beef flavoured patty, maybe.
Otherwise I'll go into debt buying beef.

>>2379343
Yes. How long do employees on a farm work everyday, how can you tell if a cow is happy or not and approximately what you think the ratio of good farms to bad farms is.

General outlook is leaning to negative. Most people think that farming in general is sad because of the shit conditions they see on the web at first glance. However my personal family knows better, as my grandfather raises his own cows on a farm and has done so for a very long time.

>>2378697
It's mostly poo in loo Indians who worship cows.

>>2378732
This triggers Indians.

>>2379739
>>2379738
Of all the creatures they picked cows. Never will I understand.

>>2379702
>How long do employees on a farm work everyday,
Depends on the job, time of year, and person. I have known people to put in over 100hrs a week during harvest. You literally are racing the weather before it rains. I myself would work from 5am until early morning when we were chopping corn, or grinding it into the silo. You can only chop or bale hay until the dew sets. If you get it when it's too wet it can literally spontaneously combust. As a milker the schedule is pretty regular. Right now I work Friday, Saturday, and Sunday nights 5pm to 5am. On break at while parlor washes. The last farm I milked at we worked 7pm to 3am Monday through Friday, then 10am to 3am Saturday and Sunday. The next weekend we had off, it was actually picking up someone else's shift so they got the weekend off and they did the same for us the next weekend. Fun fact, no overtime for farmhands in Michigan.

>how can you tell if a cow is happy or not
Hard to do, they are not very expressive. An unhappy cow will hang her head low, constantly alert and on defensive mode. Likely to be aggressive of extremely scared of humans. Happy cows look around and generally seem content. They are more head held high, curious, ears flipping and just childlike. Like humans each one has a different personality. Some cows are assholes.

>Approximately what you think the ratio of good farms to bad farms is.
Hard to say, depends on the area. Usually the bad ones go under because they are terrible business owners, however, this does not always play out.

>General outlook is leaning to negative. Most people think that farming in general is sad because of the shit conditions they see on the web at first glance. However my personal family knows better, as my grandfather raises his own cows on a farm and has done so for a very long time.
Good on you, shame the bad videos get so much attention.

>>2380243
Some snakes, big cats and monkeys are sacred and not to be messed with, too. Probably a bunch of other animals. And I guess some place have different sacred animals. It's a big subcontinent afterall.

>>2380252
>If you get it when it's too wet it can literally spontaneously combust
wut

>>2380422
https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/news/newsreleases/2011/july-25-2011/don2019t-risk-hay-fires/view

My uncle lost a barn to hay bales igniting.


>“Excessive moisture is the most common cause of hay fires,” Schroeder says.” Odd as it might seem, wet hay is more likely to lead to a spontaneous-combustion fire than dry hay.”

>High-moisture haystacks and bales can catch on fire because they have chemical reactions that build heat. Hay insulates, so the larger the haystack, the less cooling that occurs to offset the heat. When hay’s internal temperature rises above 130 degrees Fahrenheit (55 degrees Celsius), a chemical reaction begins to produce flammable gas that can ignite if the temperature goes high enough.

>>2380422
You can also get killed by deadly gasses in silos. Friend of mine went up his silo and said he smelled bleach, nose started burning and he looked up to see a yellow fog in the chute above him. On a side note, enclosed chutes tend to have an updraft. He let go of the rings and fell out the bottom onto the pile of chaff underneath the chute. He was lucky he knew what it was and said better broken bones than dying that death.

http://extension.psu.edu/business/ag-safety/confined-spaces/silo-safety/e16

>>2380470
*Let go of the rungs

Forgot excert:
>We have all heard the old saying, “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.” This is true of many aspects of farming, and in particular with silo gases. In fact, where these gases are involved we ought to add that “No knowledge can be fatal.” Although injuries and fatalities caused by silo gases may not occur as often as other kinds of farm incidents, they are and will continue to be a very real hazard for as long as silage remains a common livestock feed. Because of this it is important that every farm worker understand the dangers associated with silo gases and how to deal with them.

>Nitrogen dioxide is harmful because it causes severe irritation to the nose and throat and may lead to inflammation of the lungs. Individual reactions to silo gas depend on the concentration of inhaled gas and length of exposure. Very high concentrations of gas will cause immediate distress resulting in a person collapsing and dying within minutes. When gas levels are this high, typically the individual will not be able to withstand the symptoms felt and will quickly vacate the area. However, what makes this gas especially dangerous is that a low level exposure is accompanied by only a little immediate pain or discomfort. Milder concentrations could cause upper respiratory congestion, watery eyes, cough, difficulty breathing, fatigue, nausea, etc. If symptoms are mild, an individual may stay in the area to finish the job making the effects of silo gas worse. Effects can last for several hours in the body, causing symptoms to become progressively worse over the course of a day or two.

>>2379678
That is a panda?

I'm against dairy farming because all three times I've lived in counties with more dairy cows than people every body of water has been disgusting and the people were hateful trash

>>2380476
How was the water disgusting? What bodies? The lagoons on the farms or lakes and ponds elsewhere? Where I am if you pollute some body of water with manure you will have ABC agencies all over you.

>>2380471
>>2380470
>>2380465
That's pretty neat, the chemical part.

How can a mother be happy when her child is taken from her?

>>2378706
>good farm

I wish we had these, but our need for food dominates the shit of caring for animals.

Putting chickens in tiny cages on top of each other, shitting and scratching. Pigs in the smallest fucking pens, overweight, slow, and strapped over to feed piglets nonstop. then cows. the second the milk is literally sucked dry, into the grinder they go.

>>2378733
>anon gib me samwich. izzat chikin salad? Mmmoooo

>>2380243
Cows make milk and fertilizer
That's it according to my Indian friend

>>2378697
Being against farming is the reason I am Vegetarian - I don't particularly mind the idea of animals being killed and eaten, but the mass scale and the abuses involved are what revolt me - a lot of people don't understand his when I explain it to them though

>>2380749
Can't do much about the mass scale unless you lower overall demand for the supply of farm animal goods, which isn't realistically going to happen without developing a worthwhile alternative to fill in the gaps or by removing large quantities of the consumers.

The western diet consists of far too much meat.

>>2380783
The west also has several hundred million people.

>>2380783
Vegetables are shit, grains are shit, frish is shit.
Everything besides meat is tasteless or disgusting.

I don't care if it kills, I will continue to live on a diet of meat and potatoes.

>>2380822
t. four year old """"supertaster""""

I bet you have the cilantro soap gene looooool

>>2380243
A cow was pretty much the bees' knees in Neolithic and early Bronze Age society. If you had a herd of cattle you were set for life. You had an endless supply of walking food that sustained itself on roughage and could also be put to work sowing fields or grinding grain.

The Romans also had some sort of proscription against eating beef but this seems to be related more to the practicalities of using oxen as beast of burden rather than for slaughter. They preferred pork, fowl, mutton and seafood, possibly because they could be easier sustained as livestock on rocky Italian pastureland (note that almost all of the grain Romans consumed was produced outside of Italy after about the first century BCE).

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>>2378697
vegan here

time to shit on your belief that humans arent herbivores:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1312295/

milk consumption is decreasing:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/06/20/the-mysterious-case-of-americas-plummeting-milk-consumption/?utm_term=.af1474fe5526

milk contains estrogen and other growth factors:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19496976
https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=MAbQjY0ppgQC&oi=fnd&pg=PA476&dq=milk+hormones&ots=sE5GuaYESc&sig=L1fBOSlptAvP3xvjjKScyLzg-CY#v=onepage&q=milk%20hormones&f=false

i currently drink flax milk.

i will convince 0 people in this stupid thread to stop eating what they want to eat and i dont give a shit

also, there is a good chance OP is paid less than minimum wage to shill for some sort of lobby or industry

but i have managed to convince myself and family/friends around me to stop drinking milk and eating dairy altogether

in short: if OP wasnt a troll, there wouldnt be a family farm in 100 years because by then no one will be drinking or eating dairy

deal with it

I grew up by a farm with multiple of different farm animals (cows, sheep, goats, a few pigs, chickens and rabbits) and I spent almost every day there. The separation of calves and cows right after birth has - in my experience - changed a bit over the years. Before it was very unusual to let the calf be with the mother cow for more than a few minutes and the calf was placed in a separate enclosure to be bottle fed until it was strong enough to be grouped in bigger enclosures with other calves of similar ages. Often the mother cows would stand by the calves enclosures and moo relentlessly.

My understanding nowadays (at last where I'm from - non-American) is that more farmers will allow the calf and mother cow to be together for at least a few days/weeks in separate areas with other cows and their calves before separating them slowly but still allowing them to have physical contact on a daily basis.

I recently worked at a farm that allowed both bulls, cows and calves to roam freely in the same enclosures (grouped by age ant temperament) outdoors with shelter provided in each enclosure.

>>2380482
>How was the water disgusting?
algal blooms and aerobic conditions. lakes streams rivers ponds wherever.
>Where I am if you pollute some body of water with manure you will have ABC agencies all over you.
it's not like farmers were dumping shit in the river (as far as I know), just piss poor land management. Silage, feed corn and dairy cow pastures just don't give the nicest runoff

>>2380862
>one study conclusions and phytoestrogen woo

Typical vegan broscience.

>>2380482
>have these cows that shit, like, a lot
>the shit ends up as run off
>the shit ends up in whatever local water bodies exist in the region
>eutrophication happens

Not hard to figure out that shit is nutrients and algae like nutrients.

>>2380862
This is a pretty typical vegan. Very holier than thou. Loves to cherry pick. Seems extremely cynical and miserable. I hear mood is effected by diet, but that might just be a coincidence :^)

Calf birth is some kinky shit, I think /d/ would enjoy it.
>Chains
>Bodily fluids
>Scat
>Uguu kawaii kissing (Mouth to mouth)

Cows are really dumb creatures desu.
However the way the big corporations treat them is still unethical and it contributes to the destruction of the earth and our atmosphere. Overall a bad deal but it's not the average farmers fault.
>>2380862
Typical vegan, smug for no reason.

>lets roll back the agricultural revolution
>lets consume less

>>2378697
>The cow was probably just trying to lick the birthing juices off the cow.
Well then. That's obviously much less motherly and affectionate. Better genocide all mammals because I think it will piss off a vegan!

>>2381937
If the vegans manage to shut down the dairy industry that is exactly what will happen

>>2381003
>>2381186
>>2381218
you bet I'm smug

until you cite credible and peer reviewed studies, I'm also right

>>2381940
just convinced my girlfriends rural family to stop drinking milk this weekend. her Trump supporting father went to goymart and bought almond milk

problem? ;^)

>>2381951
>until you cite credible and peer reviewed studies, I'm also right

That's not how debate or science works. You sound like someone who needs a thin veil of objectivity behind every last position he holds.

>>2381951
No, what I am saying is that if the dairy industry shuts down they will kill all of the cows. Same with beef. I don't care if you stop people drinking milk, I am just curious as to your thoughts on the literal genocide if those industries shut down.

>>2378710
just kill yourself mexishit commie

>>2378710
they're migrant workers for a reason
they could be living in tents and it'd be a considerable step up in life quality just to get away from the crime

>>2380862
Holy hell, how do you figure I am an underpaid shill for some lobby? That is the most absurd thing I have ever been accused of.

>time to shit on your belief that humans arent herbivores:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1312295/
I don't really care if we descended from herbivores, we owe our current existence to the carnivorous decisions of our ancestors and the subsequent evolution of our species as a result.

>milk consumption is decreasing:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/06/20/the-mysterious-case-of-americas-plummeting-milk-consumption/?utm_term=.af1474fe5526
I don't think the replacing of milk with other beverage choices today is necessarily a good thing seeing as most alternatives are some form of sugary shit water. This bothers me more because I cannot stand obesity rather than any attachment I personally have to the milk industry.

>milk contains estrogen and other growth factors:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19496976
https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=MAbQjY0ppgQC&oi=fnd&pg=PA476&dq=milk+hormones&ots=sE5GuaYESc&sig=L1fBOSlptAvP3xvjjKScyLzg-CY#v=onepage&q=milk%20hormones&f=false
That article is ancient
>2009
Have one from 2015 that goes much more in depth.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4524299/
Whether or not you decide to drink milk is your choice.

>in short: if OP wasnt a troll, there wouldnt be a family farm in 100 years because by then no one will be drinking or eating dairy
You are somewhat right, there will not be small family farms left. The day of those is almost over as is. It will be large operations run by families or those they sell to. The farm I work at is already creating satellite robot farm setups because the logistics do not allow for an economical megafarm in this area. Instead we will have this farm as the "mother" farm where the cattle are bred and raised to supply the smaller farms. It is interesting to witness, like an IRL RTS.

>>2380832
>>2380415
>>2380747
Makes sense, seems absurd in the modern era, but many ancient traditions do.

>>2380585
They are not human, they seem to have motherly instincts, some of them anyhow. Others will literally walk on their calves, not sure about beef animals though. Holstein are truly stupid animals. Unfortunately, no matter how we personally feel about it the evil is necessary. They seem to get over it eventually.

>>2380657
>the second the milk is literally sucked dry, into the grinder they go.
We do not suck them dry, it does not work that way. You are right in that once they are no longer useful they are sold for meat, this is because if we were to keep every cow until old age our system would not be sustainable. A cow takes an insane amount of resources to sustain.

>>2380749
A little evil is not better than a massive evil. Both are an evil. If you believe in that, personally I don't. The abuse is due to mismanagement and poor training. As someone who works with the animals I don't like it when they are abused, just the same as I would not like to see someone kicking a doggo.

>>2380884
Here the SOP is pretty well summed up in your first paragraph sans the relentless mooing. This may be due to the calves being kept in a separate barn altogether. One of the worries is that the calves will be trampled. Another thing is that they would suckle on the cows, and the freestalls are not suitable for calves to live in. Beef cattle don't have their calves taken though, only dairy.

>>2381004
It may be different there, we have lagoons where we collect the shit from the barns. Ours is 3 million gallons. Spreading shit on the fields is watched by the DNR/EPA (?) to prevent that exact scenario.

>rural family to stop drinking milk this weekend. her Trump supporting father
Rural and suburban retards hurr durr, completely unrelated to the argument at hand.
Seriously though
>>2382101

>>2382826
>a lesser evil is not better than a greater evil

you are a buffoon

>>2382101

Well yes, it is a genocide if the industries are shut down. But the animals will be slaughtered anyway once they stop producing milk. You might think, what's the point, everything and everyone dies at some point of old age, right?

So we want to ensure the animals are treated in a good manner. But what do we care about exactly? When say we care for their welfare? Personally I find the biggest issue with the industry (like with any other industry where animals are something we consume) is there's no way to guarantee the mistreatment of animals won't happen.

No matter which way I try to see it, there's no way for humans to tell how the animals would want to be treated. They can't speak but it doesn't mean they are less observing or feeling. Either we agree to live in a society where we accept we live off of suffering and consuming other life, or we admit it's not the way to go on living and do whatever we can to change the practices we're so accustomed to.

Before anyone tries to say we already are "okay" and have accepted the industry/suffering/consuming part, I don't believe in it since we got this "buy happy cows' milk!" thing going on in the advertisements. Sure, we might be thinking about it, but we're not really thinking through it entirely. Because as a society we're not entirely okay with it, and our trail of thought stops there.

>>2383426
>there is room for mistreatment
>THEREFORE BAN ALL RANCHING INDUSTRY REEE EXTINCT EVERY DOMESTIC

The truth is people don't care about suffering nearly as much as you want to believe, and what suffering they do care about is human suffering much less trying to be world police and mandate that all suffering on Earth should be a target of crusades.

I mean, what? Should we prevent the lion from preying on the antelope because we can meme all of the macronutrients in its diet in a lab? Is that not needless suffering, when it is in the power of man to prevent it? Or do you care more about your nature meme than the very logic of being against suffering in the first place?

At least the cows that die now get guaranteed habitat, guaranteed food, guaranteed shelter, guaranteed protection from the elements and guaranteed reproduction with their own species before they're sent to the slaughterhouse. You would strip that away too, and simply leave the slaughterhouse bit. Until there are none left. And then, once you've reverted our last ten thousand years of achievement to shit because your feelings told you to, you'll plow that pastureland to make way for your meme ancient grain farms so you can circlejerk about quinoa on /ck/.

The rest of us - the sane population of the world - simply see room for a ranching sector beyond factory farming and don't want the extinction of all of our domestic species solely to fulfill a moral crusade. You people pretend domestication doesn't have an adaptive benefit for the species being domesticated. Guess what? The cow by far and away the most abundant vertebrate species on Earth by biomass. By any reckon beyond vegan moralizing, they are the most successful higher species on Earth, second only to fucking Cyanobacteria. The auroch ancestors of the common cow guaranteed their survival for the ages when they choose us. You call it slavery. I call it a successful survival strategy.

>>2383436

You call it a crusade, I call it changing the world. There's no ought from is.

Frankly I don't see lion preying on an antelope as suffering comparable to what humans are causing, nor as something we should intervene with. But what we can do is stop living with double standards and opt out of exploitation, especially when we are very close to being able to come up with feasible alternatives with minimal steps out of our comfort zone.

You are projecting your human needs on the cows. Is this guaranteed habitat what the cow would choose? Is the guaranteed food the kind of food a cow would choose? What I'm trying to convey is, how can you be certain of the ways an animal (so similar yet in certain ways so different to us) perceives its environment, and would make decisions about its life? Would any living being choose loss of self-determination?

Also I fail to see why the loss of the dairy industry would mean the wipe of an entire species. That's not true. Even now there are numerous people who have "adopted" old breeds to be raised on farms without the thought of maximizing profits, so that these breeds can continue existing. These breeds do not have commercial value in today's industry.

Similarly, coming up with alternatives and stepping out of your comfort zone doesn't mean "reverting" any part of history or achievements. Quite the contrary, driving everything to shit by recklessly polluting, consuming and endlessly "maximizing the profit" just because it was the easiest way to go about things is... It's simply a destructive path, not a sustainable one, and that is truly reverting. Like, we had the information, the tech and sci-fi dreams, but we refused to act upon those incentives because a burger with beef somehow tasted better than a quinoa burger. Now that's silly and based on a purely emotional reaction. (Don't even think about arguing food is more about sustaining rather than a choice based on pleasure and feelings. For the majority, it's not.)

>>2383436

And yes, while cattle is very abundant... They also emit methane to the atmosphere. Which will fuck up the planet's temperature in the long run. And when the disturbances keep piling up until humans as well as the livestock are wiped out completely, you'd nod at the sight and be like "yup, that's fine! At least we and the cows were the most abundant vertebrate species!"

Stop focusing on single arbitrary tidbits and try to think about the big picture.

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>>2382821
>Holy hell, how do you figure I am an underpaid shill for some lobby? That is the most absurd thing I have ever been accused of.

>>2380657
>I wish we had these

Yes you do, that's why instead of becoming vegan you buy beef from grass fed farms and support them.

>>2383503
If you give a cow the choice between hay and animal feed, they will always choose the feed because it tastes better for them. Also not on cows, but the so called free range chickens, which have access to a large area outside, mainly stay close or inside the building without any sort of special stimulus to do so, other than the shelter. What I'm trying to say with this is those sort of choices have already been studied, and most of the time animals will choose safety, shelter, and the tastiest food for them, which isn't often what they find in the wild.
Also, some producers keep rare and local breeds, not only of cows but other farm species, because even if their profit isn't maximized, they can still get some by selling their products to gourmet or other specialized stores, and collecting minimal government pay for keeping them, for some breeds and in some countries. If you take that away from them, it becomes too difficult to maintain any sort of herd.
Let me put it this way, would you spend a couple hundred or thousand dollars every year to maintain a herd of, say, ten cows and a bull, along their calves, without ever getting any sort of reliable income from them? Keep in mind you'd have to pay their vet bills and adequate nutrition during drought periods when pasture isn't enough to sustain them.
I'll agree with you on a couple of things. We do eat too much meat, but that's not something I see changing anytime soon. You're right about it being very polluting, especially cow and pork production, and while there's been breeding programs focused on reducing methane emissions, the only true way to control that is by reducing production, but I don't agree on something as radical as outright ending it. It's a moral and ecological problem, but it's also related to culture and education. Also, if you think vegetable production isn't without its share of ecological problems, you're fucking delusional.

>>2383506
>They also emit methane to the atmosphere.
As a kiwi this is a massive reason of why I dislike how dairy-reliant my countries economy is, and dairy farms as a whole. We operate on 90% renewable energy to sell ourselves to the world as "green", yet the dairy industry produces so much pollution that it barely scratches our nations carbon footprint. Not to mention the runoff of cowshit and fertilizer is making a huge number of waterways unswimmable in.

It's not like there's an all or nothing solution to it either - dairy farmers could adopt environmentally friendly cow feed to reduce the methane, fuck the government could even subsidise them for it, but no one wants to actually touch on the issue.

>>2383615
>It's not like there's an all or nothing solution to it either - dairy farmers could adopt environmentally friendly cow feed to reduce the methane, fuck the government could even subsidise them for it, but no one wants to actually touch on the issue.
What cow feed would reduce methane in an economically feasible way? Iirc the problem is the anaerobic decomposition of manure in the giant shit pits. The better way I see is the advancement of the methane generating tech. Basically giant underground tank of shit you harvest the methane from to generate electricity and heat. Problem is the setup and maintenance are seen being too much of a hassle. If someone made a better cheaper more hassle free version it may help. Or government incentives for using them. I agree there is no good solution.

>>2382868
I worded that very poorly, I meant in terms of scale. If I have no problem with killing 10 illegals crossing the border then I have no problem with killing 20 million. Now if you were to kill all Mexicans in an attempted genocide that would be a different evil because the purpose is different. I kill one cow to feed my family, or 100 to feed a fairground, same evil with a different scale.

>>2383573
I am thirsty, time to get some milk. Are you thirsty anon? Maybe we should all go get some milk.

>But the animals will be slaughtered anyway once they stop producing milk. You might think, what's the point, everything and everyone dies at some point of old age, right?
No, the difference is they would be terminated no matter the age. Babies included, there would be a 99% killoff.

>So we want to ensure the animals are treated in a good manner. But what do we care about exactly? When say we care for their welfare?
I can not speak for others. My terms are simply provide a clean environment with no unnecessary violence.

>Personally I find the biggest issue with the industry is there's no way to guarantee the mistreatment of animals won't happen.
People interfering has already created more violence when they don't adequately understand what they are enforcing. Take for example the ban on tail bobbing. Reasoning is that it provides no benefit. Truth is that it prevents mastitis because cows will get their tails shitty and it contacts the bag leading to a higher rate of infection. It reduces violence against cows as well, they will drop them in buttpans then slap the milkers in the face with piss shit slurry infuriating them. It would be like you trying to change a tire and me popping out from under the fender whenever you touch the car and slapping you in the face with a mop I just got done shitting diarrhea onto. You can say it's not a big deal but until you experience being blinded by eye burning/foul tasting pissshit slurry I will not be able to take you seriously.

>>2380862
>vegan here

immediately stopped reading

>>2383426
>No matter which way I try to see it, there's no way for humans to tell how the animals would want to be treated.
We can operate on what we do know.
>they don't like pain
>They do like food
>They do like shelter
>They like to be with the herd

>They can't speak but it doesn't mean they are less observing or feeling.
They have much simpler brains. A smart cow is like a subpar puppy.

>Either we agree to live in a society where we accept we live off of suffering and consuming other life, or we admit it's not the way to go on living and do whatever we can to change the practices we're so accustomed to.
I am willing to agree to living off their lives. That is the way of nature, for everything that benefits something, another thing has to lose something. The exception being symbiotes. I will SAY it is the way I will go on living, I will not ADMIT we should change because I have no guilt for it.

>Before anyone tries to say we already are "okay" and have accepted the industry/suffering/consuming part, I don't believe in it since we got this "buy happy cows' milk!" thing going on in the advertisements. Sure, we might be thinking about it, but we're not really thinking through it entirely.
That's just advertising pandering to city people.

>Because as a society we're not entirely okay with it, and our trail of thought stops there.
Society almost never reached a universal agreement on an issue.

>>2383615

>cow farts

The planet was naturally covered in large megafauna for millions of years until we killed them all off and now they act like cows have to be eliminated too.

>>2383503
>I call it changing the world

Translation: Crusade, p-p-p-please JOIN MEH ANONYHMOUS CAUSE

>nor as something we should intervene with

Is-ought

>But what we can do is stop living with double standards

Your life is a walking talking double standard with or without meat.

>You are projecting your human needs on the cow

Yes, all creatures on this planet don't need habitat. No creature on Earth attempts to establish habitat for itself, nosiree. Animals totally HAVEN'T been shaping habitat for themselves since the beginning of complex life on Earth... lol Food? Yeah, no animal needs that! Predators? Every animal likes being eaten, don't cha know? It's NATURRR meme!

>vegans and ecology

>Also I fail to see why the loss of the dairy industry would mean the wipe of an entire species

Vegans desire the wipe of all domestics. The very existence of a ranching sector fires up your neurons. Don't shift the goal posts to muh dairy once you've been called out. There are ranching sectors all across this planet, and many are not dairy.

>alternatives

You've listed none that isn't mass genocide of all domestics. You claim the tech is already there, but offer nothing beyond the very techno-utopian wet dream fanaticism you condemn.

>And yes, while cattle is very abundant... They also emit methane to the atmosphere

You're claiming they're too successful now. Make up your retard mind.

>Stop focusing on single arbitrary tidbits and try to think about the big picture.

What arguments do you even have besides feelings and global warming? I'm sorry, but we can solve the methane problem without abolishing dairy or clearing every pastureland for your quinoameme.

What you want is to oppress numerous people's lifestyle for a moral CRUSADE. You want totalitarian levels of state control to achieve such. That's the big picture, not your deliberate attempts to tie global warming or eutrophication into your schema to give yourself higher moral ground to stand on.

>>2379053
>she wants to date female high schoolers

Stunted womanlet detected.

>>2379053
>she wants to date female high schoolers

Stunted womanlet detected.

>>2379053
>she wants to date female high schoolers

Stunted womanlet detected.

>>2383756
>>2383759
>>2383760
God bless 4chan servers.

>>2383742

>Is-ought

And what good will intervening cause, hmm?

>Your life is a walking talking double standard with or without meat.

I realize that, which is why I am doing something about it rather than acting all cynical and waiting for everything to get royally fucked. That's cynical and selfish, but it's very evident you're cool with that and argue against change because M-MUH COMFORT ZONE

>Yes, all creatures on this planet don't need habitat.

That's very dense. Yeah, of course everything needs a habitat, but can you guarantee your view of a proper habitat is similar to the animal's view of a proper habitat? You'd shove a cow to a desert and once again nod, YUP WELL IT'S A HABITAT ALRIGHT

>You've listed none that isn't mass genocide of all domestics

And I probably won't, since you've contributed little to nothing to the entire debate and go around screaming "crusade" and "memes" until someone feeds you a solid answer with 0 flaws.

I feel I should have typed all of this in caps or leetspeak so you'd probably spend a tad longer time reading it and thus actually comprehend the words you're reading from your apparent ADHD

Besides, I never once said the change had to be somehow absolute or abolish the milk industry entirely overnight. It's very delusional to think any change in the world would happen that way, and so it is irrational for you to be afraid of us "quinoamemers" that we'd somehow flick a magic wand and make the world unrecognizable to you overnight.

What the change however would mean if we at least as a society moved towards the alternatives: price of dairy products would rise, people actually would have to bother themselves to act differently. And that'd be a certain uproar, because vast majority unfortunately thinks the way you do.

>people's lifestyle > suffering of a living organism

>also implying the current system has no totalitarian elements in it

Ohohoho my sides are hurting and it's not the B12 deficiency.

>>2383611

You're probably right about the feed, and also I have heard about cows who refuse to go out of their shelter in the winter because it's too cold outside. But does this mean every farm in existence right now offers the opportunity for the animals to go outside? No. Does that mean the industry is even trying to move towards such improvements? No, because profits.

It's also true that if dairy production would disappear overnight, small farms like you described would be in deep shit. What if every dairy farm would be a heaven on earth for the animals, and the people looking after them would receive a pay for their work?

The people working on the farms aren't in the wrong here, it's the system, and it needs to be changed. How is that achieved, then? Welp, by fucking cutting down the milk consumption. The disgusting mass production practices are what need to be torn down, but it's not gonna happen without putting a conscious effort to do so, as we're raised to do the opposite.

So yeah, what I'm trying to say is, in an ideal situation: work towards reducing production. Then again, it might mean some farms get shut down entirely (because the moneymakers are going to scream about maximizing teh profits).

I'm definitely not saying veggie production isn't going to happen without tackling a new plethora of problems, but I'm positive it could be done. Unfortunately, I don't see so many people being too happy about downshifting, unless they make a choice to do so. So. I'm gonna keep chugging my non-dairy milks instead.

>>2383691

I'm up for these underground methane tanks you mentioned. Why is it they're seen as too much of a hassle? Would that be simply a cause of lobbying? Because where I live, hugeass underground parking lots are being built in the hopes of a quick buck like it's not a big issue at all.

Sometimes I feel there should be a government incentive for about fucking everything, 'cause everyone's tossing all the long-term good ideas out the window after asking "what's in it for me?" You see what kind of thinking is the issue here?

>>2379332
How the fuck he killed 2 persons and was never arrested?

>>2384220
>How the fuck he killed 2 persons and was never arrested?
He vanished, when I said got rid of "them" I meant hiring illegals altogether to avoid the drama.

>>2384204
>I'm up for these underground methane tanks you mentioned. Why is it they're seen as too much of a hassle? Would that be simply a cause of lobbying? Because where I live, hugeass underground parking lots are being built in the hopes of a quick buck like it's not a big issue at all.
They are seen as a hassle for several reasons, not all of them good.
>Most farmers see methane production the same way regular people view the need for recycling. They see it as a problem, however, they don't place a high priority as they have more pressing problems.
>Space on a farm is at a premium. To build a project like that you need a large area. This means either you have spare space on the farm, need to remove old buildings/structures, or expand the farm into fields/forests bordering the farm.
>Compared to the current methods, which are rather simple, you need to build new infrastructure to maintain and operate the tanks.
>They are not very cost effective at this point, last I heard they may break even. Which compared to the hassle would not be seen as worth it.
>They are not really advertised very well. Everything I have heard firsthand from people has been on the level of hearsay and rumor.
Just some of the many.

>Sometimes I feel there should be a government incentive for about fucking everything, 'cause everyone's tossing all the long-term good ideas out the window after asking "what's in it for me?" You see what kind of thinking is the issue here?
I personally hate the idea of gibs, however, as of right now unless something drastically changes they will not be massively implemented. I do see the issue and it is a problem, not just in the dairy business, but almost every human operation from businesses to government.

>>2384201
>You're probably right about the feed, and also I have heard about cows who refuse to go out of their shelter in the winter because it's too cold outside. But does this mean every farm in existence right now offers the opportunity for the animals to go outside? No. Does that mean the industry is even trying to move towards such improvements? No, because profits.
During the winder the cows will refuse to leave the warm parlor and need to be chased out. It is not just about the profits, it is about logistics as well. On a small farm pasturing was an option as you brought the herd in and milked them in one go. Now with larger farms they are broken up into smaller manageable groups. These are sized to take about an hour to milk.
Reasons for this:
>It is hard on a cow to make them stand for more than an hour waiting in the holding pen to be milked.
>You don't want to keep them from food and water for too long. Especially water in the summer.
>The holding pens can only hold so many cows.
>During the summer you don't want them standing next to each other for too long as they give off massive amounts of heat.

>It's also true that if dairy production would disappear overnight, small farms like you described would be in deep shit. What if every dairy farm would be a heaven on earth for the animals, and the people looking after them would receive a pay for their work?
Could you elaborate on this, it is not very clear. Are you saying without the dairy industry you would have some program where you keep a herd in an extremely cow friendly environment to be reimbursed by the government?

cont.

>>2384461
>>2384201

>The people working on the farms aren't in the wrong here, it's the system, and it needs to be changed. How is that achieved, then? Welp, by fucking cutting down the milk consumption. The disgusting mass production practices are what need to be torn down, but it's not gonna happen without putting a conscious effort to do so, as we're raised to do the opposite.
As someone who grew up on a small dairy farm I agree that they would be better for the cows. Unfortunately the days of small farms are over, lowering production would not really help.
>Lower milk consumption
>Milk prices dive
>Many farms that were still recovering from the last crash go under
>Many auctions
>Farms that are really good at managing resources have spare resources
>Surplus of cattle, land, and equipment from failed farms flood market
>The more successful farms expand that much more
>milk prices stabilize when enough farms go under
>Due to the new land these farms can now cut down on the price of food production and may even generate a surplus
>More equipment so they can accomplish more projects on shorter timescales
>More cattle so they can produce more with their cheaper feed.
>The dominant farms have now improved their cost to production ratio.

I have seen this cycle my whole life, eventually ending in the absorption of the family farm into another. Milk prices regularly cycle between between ~10$ and ~$25 a hundredweight. It takes about $12 to break even on the farm I am at. The smaller you are the higher the break even number is. The trick is to build resource buffers and pay debts during the good times to make it through the hard times. This may seem like a huge profit, however, that is before you consider the costs of replacement machines, building repairs, and other things that are not regular costs you may not see coming. A decent farmer will reinvest most of the money generated back into the farm. If you don't you will be unable to compete as you will stagnate.

>>2384461

>Are you saying without the dairy industry you would have some program where you keep a herd in an extremely cow friendly environment to be reimbursed by the government?

Exactly. It'd be a different matter when the downsides of mass production are eliminated from the practice. Current system just makes the big and bad farms hide behind the public image of good ones, as most of the mental images are created through media in people's heads. By the way, my country just approved of keeping more cattle in smaller space, because profits. (I am in the EU.)

>>2384470

>lowering production would not really help

This is exactly what I pointed out earlier: people are not comfortable with change nor generally do not take much interest in changing their habits. I can understand where you're coming from, and on a shorter times the events you described will inevitably happen. But you haven't taken into account the impact of alt products, as they're competing of the same consumers and market shares. My wish is at that point farmers will be tempted to start a business in producing non-animal milk (or something else entirely, with more sustainable results). I get it's an uncomfortable feeling, to work on the field and feel that more and more people are giving up on what is your livelihood. Then again, everything is in motion, and the status quo never really happens. I don't really think bad of the people in your position, the frustration rises from the desire of world being different, and eventually better and more sustainable for everyone. Sure that's idealistic and sappy as fuck, but then what? No one wants to live in misery.

A relative of mine quit producing milk on his farm, he now does something else in there and gets by. There are so many other things one can do. If you're struggling with ideas, ask around perhaps? Try to find out what your community desires!

Sorry for the possible extrapolation I'm doing in these posts btw, it's just the format and slow tempo.

I'm lactose intolerant. I help the environment with this curse.

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>>2378697
>17 best images about animal cruelty
>best

who is worse, the people that do farming in this manner or the people getting their rocks off looking at these pics? can you imagine being the person who made that article and thought, "oh yeah! that pic is really good, I like it a lot and it needs to be in my blog article for "17 best images about animal cruelty". then you have all the people who read that and still click on it to view them. it is just as bad as going to /b/ only its in blog form

>>2378736
>Do cows like being milked?

Farmer here. Most of them yes, but it depends on the method and temperament of the cow and most importantly the way the person milks them. As in that person being good with cows or not.

>>2378706
>good farm

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Are you insane? You only say this because you aren't hungry

>>2385331
What? You don't make sense.

>>2385331
>good farm
>hahah

>implying all farms are bad farms just because you don't like them

Has anyone again the way farms operate actually worked on a farm to understand why they do what they do?

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>>2385314
>>>2378736 #
>>Do cows like being milked?
>Farmer here. Most of them yes, but it depends on the method and temperament of the cow and most importantly the way the person milks them. As in that person being good with cows or not.
Spot on.

>>2385311
The ones beating the animals imo. Those people are a weird type of virtue signalling edgelord. "17 best images about isis killings", sounds pretty bad. Still bad people.

>>2385060
I am phone posting and will respond when I get back to my computer.

For those who think we all hate cows here are a few pictures of one of my pets. Her name is White Power. She is the first cow to the parlor from her yard everyday, runs to the door and sticks her head in the pit to be petted and scratched.

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>>2386694

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>>2386696

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>>2386697

>>2378755
>>2378743
>>2378749
Just advertise the bold new insect diet with Timon and Pumbaa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgji-DRW5do

We could stop abusing them if we could somehow replace their brains with computer controllers. They would be dead so no abuse.

>>2378914
I don't even know how you got that from that anons post. Stop projecting and get help for your pedophilic tendencies.

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>>2387472
but MUH SOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUULLL MUH QUALIA OH MY GOD OH MY GOD ARTIFICIAL P-ZOMBIES OH MY GOD OH MY GOOOOOODDDDDDDDDDD

>>2378733
>literally eat mor chikin
He was just making sure.

>>2379323
>Sticking her tongue out
Rude!

Not a farmer or anything but im a trucker that hauls livestock fairly frequently. I always seem to have to get in there with a cattle prod to get them off the trailer, take it for what you will.

>>2378697
>force free range only farms
>industry collapses

I hope we can genetic engineer cows and make them ultra huge and resistant to diseases so free range farms would be profitable for everyone.

>>2378704
What makes you think that Netflix is a valid source of information?

>>2385060
>Exactly. It'd be a different matter when the downsides of mass production are eliminated from the practice. Current system just makes the big and bad farms hide behind the public image of good ones, as most of the mental images are created through media in people's heads. By the way, my country just approved of keeping more cattle in smaller space, because profits. (I am in the EU.)
Well first off, it is not the size of the farm that is the problem. It is the owners and the managers that oversee the people working with the cattle. Small farms are better imo because you get to know the cattle so they are not just a faceless herd. Not saying big farms are good, just that there are good and bad of each type. As for the keeping of cattle in smaller spaces that is fine as long as they have room to move about, eat, shit, and stay cool. It does not take much to keep a cow content. And if you are going for an environment where the cows would be extremely happy give them a mound in their pen. They love to play king of the hill.

cont.

>>2390021

>>2385060
>>lowering production would not really help
>This is exactly what I pointed out earlier: people are not comfortable with change nor generally do not take much interest in changing their habits.
It is not just a habit, it is a livelihood and a way of life. Usually a successful one, and very satisfying at that. As an owner you get to watch the farm grow and expand, when you set yourself to a project you can see and feel the fruits of your labor.

>I can understand where you're coming from, and on a shorter times the events you described will inevitably happen. But you haven't taken into account the impact of alt products, as they're competing of the same consumers and market shares.
Things must be different in the cities, I honestly do not know where to go to even buy something such as almond milk. Or maybe it is just over there in the UK. Even if they are competing for drinking milk, there are many many more products milk goes into that Americans love. Such as cheese, icecream, and many others that my sleep deprived brain refuses to bring up atm. Also, the agricultural field is experiencing increases automation atm. The tech is kind of expensive now but in a few years when the costs come down the farms will have much less overhead. This will reduce the minimum price per 100# to sustain a farm.

cont.

>>2390024

>>2385060
>My wish is at that point farmers will be tempted to start a business in producing non-animal milk (or something else entirely, with more sustainable results).
Examples?

>I get it's an uncomfortable feeling, to work on the field and feel that more and more people are giving up on what is your livelihood.
It does not actually feel that way at all. Farmers are not standing around goind "woe is me the city for have forsaken our milk products reducing us to mere peasants," it is more a focus on keeping things efficient and costs down.

>Then again, everything is in motion, and the status quo never really happens. I don't really think bad of the people in your position, the frustration rises from the desire of world being different, and eventually better and more sustainable for everyone. Sure that's idealistic and sappy as fuck, but then what? No one wants to live in misery.
I wish we could all go back to being children, living day by day, carefree, and full of wonder. Unfortunately, it is not that way and we must face the reality we are presented and make the best of it. I do not blame you for being an idealist, I used to be as well. My grandpa had a saying, "if you are not a liberal when you are young you have no heart, if you are not a conservative when older you have no brain." To avoid a political dispute he meant being idealistic when young and realistic when older, not Democrat and Republican.

Sorry for taking so long to reply, I have been busy.

>>2380862
I don't get it...

Do vegans think that the open wild looks like the vegetable aisle at a grocery store? The forest is filled with inedible and poisonous shit. Like you're gonna walk through a random field in the middle of nowhere and find potatoes and carrots just growing in nice rows, naturally.

Really, this shit grinds my gears. Any time you see one of those "survivor" type shows where a guy tries to live off the land, what always happens? "I need protein", "These berries aren't giving me enough energy", "I need to set a trap so I can get real food". Every, fucking, time.

Go ahead, vegan. Go survival camping for a couple weeks, see how much wild broccoli you and your friends can forage before you realize you're a fucking omnivore.

>>2390029
I don't think many of them have much actual experience with the outdoors.

>>2390029
>using reality shows as your connection to reality
kill yourself

>>2390506
wooooshhhh

the point just went right over your head, dumb vegan

>>2378697
>muh cow, calf, pig, chicken, dog genocide
The only solution is to wipe out the 4 billion asians and 2 billion africans so we can go back to traditional extensive farming across the entire globe.

Intensive farming existing because of the billions of starving, feckless, dirty mouths.

>>2390780
that's not how it works
there's enough food being wasted right now to feed everyone on earth

>>2391061
Excess food at the expense of animals. Excess junk food and sugar thrash.
How is that a good thing?

There is an entire continent that grows exclusively from other people's work and money.
You want food, you need to work for it, not to expect others to give you hand outs.