???

>>2373194
>screeeeeeeee
:c

Crows are smart motherfuckers, they know he dead and they like "rip crowbro from another crowhoe"

>aawwh lawd! awww mah babeh! awwwh jesus!
>call da ambalamps!
>he nees som milk!

>>2373194
Corvids have funerals.

Based smartest avians.

Poor little guy.

>>2373194
Did he died?

>>2373210
They're magpies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60Zg9sGnQf8

I'm sure someone is gonna come in here saying that they're "just overheated" or some other nonsense

>>2373289
not really, corvid intelligence is fairly well known by now and so is the social nature of many of its member species

>>2373194
corvids are known to hold funerals for dead friends

>>2373194

Theres no reason to think animals generally understand death, even as a physical event. They do grasp change, animation.

Change is hard, especially if it is something familiar. And from change, they can experience anxiety and what we would elaborate as 'loss'.

Let me see if I can relate this:

Imagine that you were immortal, or at least thats how you understood the world. There are things that scare and hurt you, but as far as you know, life is infinite, and your certainty of this derives from the fact that youre either awake constantly, and when you aren't, you dont notice.

One day someone you are close to just stops moving. You wait, but they never start again. You may have been relying on them to watch your back while you eat, or maybe they provided company.

You keep waiting and they never move. You begin the hard process of noticing this change doesnt seem to be ending. This is the new normal and it doesnt serve you at all. Adapting to this is emotional.

After a while you notice their appearance is changing, even their smell. But they still are not moving. This eventually exceeds your intellectual capacity to remember just what the hell you are seeing or waiting for. You know something has changed, you dont like it, but you have to move on.

When a predator kills something, or when there is a mortal fight among peers or a creature must defend to the death, the cool down begins when animation stops, when there is nothing to react to anymore. Rather the mouse the cat catches is alive or not, or the attacking rival is alive, or the aggressing enemy, what is certain is motion.

Whether its death, the seasons or daylight, our whole perception of time is based on change. The change of a living peer to being forever motionless is a hard one, even for animals. It is not grief for the dead, but the all the loss and uncertainty the individual feels for themselves. They will be less one more set of eyes as they feed, and never really know why it happened.

>>2373374
You type out all this bullshit when humans can't comprehend death either. You don't know shit

>>2373381

I didn't suggest we could. It was relative. Communication assumes a frame of reference. Its comical that you think you are jumping in with new insight simply to emphasize the obvious.

But if you have to rage about something, you're welcome. Perhaps you'd like to rage about grammar now, spelling or some other obvious trifle.

>>2373374
TLDR
>>2373259
I want to know this. Maybe it was just a seizure.

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>>2373402

No, its just sleeping, anon.

I'd like to point out that they one that's doing all the vocalizing looks young, recently fledged. Light eyes, fleshy pale beak hinges, and scruffy feathers around the throat all point to a juvenile that would still be attached to a parent and asking to be fed, despite the fact that it can fly and probably forage fine for itself at this point.

Calling it a "magpie death ritual" is... a bit much.

>>2373415
Smart birds, trying to wake up their sleeping friend before traffic smooshes him.

>>2373374
Thx for that

>>2373416
Just no, you are heavily understimating the intelligence of the eurasian magpie, this is not an average animal, it sits way on top of the intellectual scale of the animal kingdom, their nidophallum is huge, their DVR roughly on the same density and proportion to that of chimps and elephants, which makes sense when you consider the fact that these are one lf the only 6 species which pass the mirror test, as well as demonstrate complex thought, basal theory of mind and early religious thought, there have been several obaervations of magpies engaging on ritualistic behaviour, when one member of their flock die for example they have been observed extracting particular objects and placing them by the side of the dead magpie, like for example going to a particular tree, allegedly the one where the magpie in particular was born, extracting leaves and placing them by dead body, they have been also entertaining themselves by going close to highways where a cat lived close by, imitating sounds of prey animals such as squirrels and mouses which attracted young cats to the highway and stopping just when the cat is about to be crushed by cars to then repeat this behaviour until getting bored. Magpies are not any animal, they are quite literally one of the smartest creatures to ever live and on the same level of intelligence as animals like chimps, making them one of the most likely species to inherit civilization of we ever dissapear, its not " a bit too much" to compare their behaviour to that of chimps adoring wood idols or elephants making pilgrimages to elephant cementeries sporadically.
Also no, magpies mate for life, the one you see right by the side of the dead one is most likely its partner and the ones surrounding the body are providing comfort, it is indeed a ritual.

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>>2373194
They are pretty smart animals.

Crows are pretty funny to watch.
>can see two crows from awhile away
>they are just caw'ing
>walking to my car
>caw'ing changes pitch, length as I near them
>get pretty close, they are quiet
>they play it cool and keep watching me
>walk by them
>turn my back to look at them
>they do that 'got caught looking' thing where they turn their heads quickly away in the other direction (see pic)
>continue caw'ing when I drive away

b

>>2373194
Not sure how it is with magpies, but crows f.e. are known to look for any danger when they discover a dead bro, in case the bro got killed by a predator and they have to move their location.

>>2373374
I think that in a species that forms close, monogamous pairings and whose young are so dependent, evolution would make the loss of a mate/child/parent an extremely traumatic event.

They may not be able to comprehend death, but they probably experience the same feelings of grief.

You can observe this in other species who aren't as intelligent as well. Prairie voles will not even attempt to swim when put into water after being separated from their partner.

>>2373210
>>2373471
These are magpies, not crows. They're on a scale more intelligent than the typical corvid and easily some of the smartest creatures on Earth.

>>2373507
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pied_crow

>>2373508
You need new glasses if you think the birds in OP's webm are pied crows.

>>2373374
why do people act like death is a hard concept to grasp
shit, most predators visibly register the accomplishment of a kill and relax their control on the prey item, they understand their target has changed from live quarry to an inanimate object
all intelligent social animals register death and mourn
my fucking female betta sorority tank had one female visibly distressed with fins clamped laying next to the corpse of her favored fellow female, and even after removal of the corpse loitered around the area and refused food for several days
why wouldn't any but the simplest organisms have a basic comprehension of death, no need for your little pseud journal

>>2373457
I'm not doubting magpie intelligence as I seen it first hand, but I need some sources on those rituals.

>>2373194
Actually, the behaviour you see is just typical fledgling "begging" behaviour. It's probably a parent who died and the little one doesn't understand.

Now, I'm not denying that corvids grieve, but I do want to point out that what you see isn't the grieving behaviour.

>>2373457
I also want to see sources for this, mainly because this all sounds very interesting

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>>2373535

Right. Whenever I run into this David Attenborough departure from logic that suggest animals understand heritage, bloodlines and other such bullshit, I apply the human toddler test.

You find me a human toddler that understands the permanent linear consequences of death and you can have your deep, introspective animals.

>>2373506

Oh indeed. They definitely feel emotional stress, anxiety and I think its fair to use the term 'loss' after a while when it sinks in the best it ever will. I just mean they are reacting to what they can observe and how it affects their situation, and as you say, the loss of that bond, That bond alone can be vitally important for a social animal that may suddenly feel alone and abandoned, which is a detriment to their survival, which they are acutely reminded of daily. But they dont have the abstract ability to process it, and as someone pointed out above, we are not terribly great at it either, thus all the strange rituals. But they can react to what they physically observe in time passing, even if they dont have an abstract ability to conceptualize time moving either, just change.

On that point, humans are similar in both respects, because we observe both time and death, but we intellectualize it also, and when we react, we react to the products of that abstract imagination moreso than what we see. We see change and 'know' its time moving on, but that knowledge remains abstract in our minds. Whether its death or the sun moving across the sky, all the universe renders for us is the physical evidence of whats happening to our senses. We have to cognitively make up the rest in our heads to have even basic concepts of what is happening.

>>2373601
you ever think that it's a struggle to talk a toddler through death because they'll rarely encounter it personally (on a meaningful level, as in beyond crushing bugs) and most parents aren't in any hurry to talk about harsh realities to their tiny children? animals encounter death regularly, often by their own doing; I think a toddler would ace the ol death talk if you had them sit and watch animals be slaughtered for a week prior
nice projecting of your "deep and introspective" by the way, maybe reread my post a few times until it sinks in that I'm telling you critters don't need to be deep and introspective to understand death, a concept far less deep and introspective than you seem to think it is

My problem here is all these edgelords loving le mysterious dark corvid edge and attempting to glorify them as some sort of ultra entities that are not acknowledge by society just so they can relate their asses to them. Corvids are far from being the only smart, curious and creative birds.

Thus said I really love them.

>>2373618
>you ever think that it's a struggle to talk a toddler through death

Thats the point. You have to explain it. No one explains it to animals. The whole point of citing a toddler is that it has to go by what it sees. It can see change and motion. It doesn't process cause and effect. When it is eating lunch it has no concept of dinner time.

Understanding death means more than understanding that something has changed and is motionless. It requires the abstract ability to understand time and effect. It means knowing that there is 100% certainty that something that has stopped moving isnt going to start again. That is an abstract. Again, even humans struggle with this when their reason leaves them in such an event, thus the rituals and mysticism.

If an animal witnesses a death, it could theoretically remember it after the first time and apply that memory to the next time it happens and perhaps notice a pattern, at least among peers.

This is ridiculous. I am not going into this quicksand of proving a negative about what animals can and cannot reason. Your toddler can watch animals being slaughtered for a week, and the first time he sees his puppy wake up from a nap, the whole concept would become relative again.

Humans enjoy dramas about the undead, literature about scientists making monsters from corpses, and 50 interpretations of ghost worlds after death. And yet you think a magpie has the capacity to understand linear time. Either that or you subscribe to reincarnation yourself. Either way, this discourse has sunk beneath my threshold for patience. You start by ad homming, bring your own set of definitions to the language and then move the goal post.

Understanding the cause and effect nature of death in linear time is distinct from noticing that something has stopped moving or changed form and is no longer animate. You often see animals mounting dead peers. Next you'll tell me they are necrophiliacs. Im not playing this game of "prove I'm an idiot".

Whats considered a toddler? My mother was murdered infront of me when I was four and I understood she was never coming back.

>>2373374
Nigga, you just 3 walls of text trying as hard as you can to sound smart and in the end it's just verbose bullshit that can be summarised with
>opinions

Next time try to make it as simple as you can, and i assure you it won't make you dumber, maybe the opposite.

>>2373457
Damn you Anon. I did not come here for these feels.

I have a bunch of crows that regularly come to my backyard because I feed them. In the past few years they started having babies in the trees. I feel privileged that these deeply intelligent animals consider my yard a safe haven and they trust me enough to let their young be born and eat and sleep on my 'territory'.

One of the most amazing things I ever saw was a single crow in the tree, on low branches, visible to me. He/she waited for me to throw food out. This was before the crows trusted me, and she stared at me for a very long time, utterly silent. Maybe 10 minutes passed as we both stood our ground. I was by the window waiting to see if she would eat the food.

Then abruptly she did a call, and about 10-15 crows flew in from seemingly nowhere, all descending down into the yard to eat the food. They must have been hiding in the trees or on my roof or some other unseen spot. It was just incredible to watch.

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>>2373741

That's pretty cool. Thank you for sharing the nice crow story. Such things are joys to hear for us stuck in city. Be blessed.

>>2373374
>blah blah pseudoscience blah blah opinions blah blah literally nothing blah blah

>>2373678
and he just explained that the reason you would have to explain it simply because they never experienced it themselves. you sure type a lot of words just to say a whole lot of nothing

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>>2373194
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDdPGfvsfyI

>>2373646
but nobody here is doing that

>>2373457
I'm aware of how intelligent magpies are but you're ignoring the physical characteristics of the magpie vocalizing that I pointed out. It's a juvenile and if you've ever watched juveniles around adults you'd be able to pick out this behavior pretty clearly.

Corvids are intelligent as a whole and magpies exceptionally so, this I understand, but I think in this particular video there's an unhealthy dose of anthropomorphising going on. I wholeheartedly embrace evidence of animal intelligence and emotion but I think it's important to differentiate typical animal behavior from that. This, to me, doesn't stand out.

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>>2373874
For reference, here's a picture of a juvenile. Light eyes, obvious soft/fleshy beak hinge. Its feathers are in good condition but that's not always the case for juvies.

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>>2373880
And an adult: dark eyes, fully developed beak.

Here's a video of begging behavior. All three of the magpies around the body in the video look like scruffy fledglings making demands of a parent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqrUxTtRwo8

>>2373601
http://griefwords.com/index.cgi?action=page&page=articles%2Fhelping26.html&site_id=3

>But understanding death and being affected by it are two very different things. When a primary caregiver dies, even tiny babies notice and react to the loss. They might not know exactly what happened and why, but they do know that someone important is now missing from their small worlds.

I distrust people who claim they have measurements of the "abstract ability" of creatures they don't and cannot experience the qualia of. Seems to me like anthropocentrism and an excuse for navel gazing.

>>2373416
>>2373874
I agree with your opinion that they're juveniles. It was my first thought when watching the video. Those birds look young.

However, I'm not too sure about whether it's begging behaviour. Young birds that beg for food tend to shake their wings while yelling, but none of the birds in the video are doing that. Also, I can't tell if the dead magpie is a grown bird and one of the parents, or if it's a young one. If its the latter, I think it's possible that its siblings could be confused about witnessing death.

>>2373910
>confused about witnessing death
I think that's almost a certainty, too. Some of that behavior definitely reads like they're trying to get the deceased bird's attention, sort of a "hey, why aren't you moving? Usually we fly around and do stuff together, so what's going on?"