Breeders Suck.

and?

>>2329775
>wants to buy a Doberman that's cropped, docked, and intact
Mate the people who want to buy dogs like that are BYBs, no wonder they don't want to sell one like that. Why do you want your dog to be fertile, OP?

>>2329779
>BYBs

What?

I want an intact dog because removing a huge part of an animal's endocrine system does them no health benefits. And that is putting it mildly.

Obviously it greatly reduces chance for any testicular, uterine, and breast cancers, but their skeletal, circulatory, and muscular systems all take a huge hits to health over the long term, and susceptibility to all other cancers increases many, many times.

Also, a male just won't grow as big if they're castrated.

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>>2329783

>>2329779
>why do you want your dog to be fertile?

Why would you want your dog to undergo unnecessary surgical procedures that are more than just cosmetic?

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Source is from a no-name pro-animal organization. But it is a literature review study of actual peer-reviewed research published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association. The picture is clear and quite grim. If you want your pupper to live a longer, healthier life- don't get him/her fixed.

If I wanted a female dog I would have been OK with tubal ligation. Makes them infertile without altering their endocrine system. But no, "reputable" scumbags want to excise both ovaries.

>>2329784
How do you know you are not manipulated by peta spay/neuter shill?

>>2329784

Yea, there is such a problem with unwanted purebreed dogs out there. Such a huge overpopulation of gold retrievers, labs, dobies, and GSD in all the shelters.

Get off your high horse. Neutering and spaying is bad for the health of the animal. It is on the same level as de-clawing. Only people who are for it are vets, because it means more money for them, and breeders because they want a greater monopoly on the supply.

>>2329787
But OP also wants the poor dog to be docked and cropped which are solely cosmetic. Shit's stupid. I can understand not wanting to spay or neuter your pet (though I think that's retarded--I'll respect that) but cropping and docking is just mean. Yeah, yeah, it's done when they're babies and Dobies look boss like that but it's cruel.

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ok OP, you got some replies! good job, you trolled /an/. now you can go back to 9gag and post a meme about it.

>>2329805
>Implying BYBs keep pedigree in mind
>Implying BYBs breed to breed standard
>Implying BYBs never make designer dogs
>Implying this isn't the exact slippery slope that lead to pit bulls

If neutering is just as bad as declawing why isn't declawing suggested by vets? They get much more money from 4 paw declaw especially if you count the cash flow from complications that will happen as a result.

>>2329841
>you trolled /an/, good job!

What, pray tell, is so troll-worthy about wanting an un-castrated dog?

>>2329847

Neutering is worse than declawing. See >>2329787

I also have no desire to breed, I simply want the healthiest dog. Declawing WAS suggest by vets until a little bit ago, for cats.

>>2329841
This is an even more obvious bait thread than the guy with the pug the other day. Amazing how all these fucking apes still fall for it.

>>2329860

Spaying and neutering your dogs leads to lower health outcomes.

What's wrong with wanting a dog that hasn't had a part of its endocrine system removed?

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>freaking out about neutering a dog
>freaking out about reputable dog breeders phasing out the retards who want to become BYBs
>even considering ever supporting any variety of puppy mill at all
>"I want it's ears and tail chopped off for no reason at all lol"

I'll agree with you that it isn't really neccesary to spay or neuter if it's not causing an issue with your dog.

That being said, the fact that you're even considering supporting a puppy mill and that you want your dog's ears and tail removed for absolutely no reason eliminates any support I think you deserve. Seriously, just don't own pets if you're going to be such a god-damned hypocrite about how to care for them

>>2329855
Not by my vet, dude. And declawing can cause behavioral problems that can be 'helped' with kitty prozac, which is $$$ every month for the cat's entire fucking life. That's not even including nails regrowing which require surgeries and once it happens, has a higher chance to happen again. And cancer in the paw. Real cheap, treating cancer.

Early neutering has it's health risks I will agree with you there. In fact I would love to see a day where even cats aren't regularly fixed. But it's nothing compared to several small amputations.

>>2329775
>that is cropped, docked

Why?

>>2329864
I doubt you'd walk that unneutered Doberman the 4 hours a day it needs and eventually it'll turn and bite your face off.

>>2329775
I feel your pain OP I had a bit of trouble trying to find a reputable breeder who offered full akc registration (meaning able to breed the pup), No "take back clause", and did not require neutering/spraying. I got lucky since he has a breeding program in place to ensure none of his customers BYB (Unless you want to give up on a shit load of free resources to breed your GSD to a inferior dog). He was a bit of a Nazi on the background check, wanting to know the sqft of our home, size of our land, and a criminal background check. Still better than a puppy mill or a shitty ass shelter. I don't agree with cropping ears or docking any dogs tail though.

>>2329895
>Not by my vet, dude.

You can have Jesus as your vet and he will magic the ovaries and testicles out of your dog without any pain or blood, the damage is done from the animal not having the hormones all adult mammals produce. As much as "hormone imbalance" is a buzzword term in the health-fad industry, this is literally the case for fixed animals. Overall cancer rate, ligament and bone formation, predisposition to diabetes and obesity, and just overall intellect can be negatively impacted by spaying and neutering.

Hart BL. Effect of gonadectomy on subsequent development of age-related cognitive impairment in dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 Jul 1;219(1):51-6.

van Hagen MA, Ducro BJ, van den Broek J, Knol BW. Incidence, risk factors, and heritability estimates of hind limb lameness caused by hip dysplasia in a birth cohort of boxers. Am J Vet Res. 2005 Feb;66(2):307-12.

Marmor M, Willeberg P, Glickman LT, Priester WA, Cypess RH, Hurvitz AI. Epizootiologic patterns of diabetes mellitus in dogs Am J Vet Res. 1982 Mar;43(3):465-70. ..

Lund EM, Armstrong PJ, Kirk, CA, Klausner, JS. Prevalence and Risk Factors for Obesity in Adult Dogs from Private US Veterinary Practices. Intern J Appl Res Vet Med • Vol. 4, No. 2, 2006.

Ru G, Terracini B, Glickman LT. (1998) Host-related risk factors for canine osteosarcoma. Vet J 1998Jul;156(1):31-9

>>2329775
kill yourself

>>2329805
25% of dogs who enter shelters are purebred. Are you retarded? There's literally entire rescue operations dedicated to rescuing a single breed.

>>2330057
>Hormone imbalance is a buzzword
>E-except when I use it!
Kys my man

>>2329775
Dude, it's to prevent other people to start puppy mills. It's for the best.

>>2330057
Yeah an a neutered Doberman already needs a minimum 2 hours of walking a day. An uneutered male is gonna need 4 hours or he'll go stir crazy and bite you. 99% of dog bites are by uneutered males you dumb cunt. But you'll be a shit owner anyways as you want other unnecessary surgeries that have literally 0 benefits.

>>2330154
Cropping ears and docking tails is for cunts. But you're looking at cold, hard evidence here, studies have been posted. Neutering males seems to be instant gratification for a long run of problems. It's funny that you have the gall to say someone will be a shit owner when your dogs are psychopaths who bite their master because they have too much energy. Feel free to back up your claims with evidence, I know you won't bother though. I've come to expect weightless insults from faggots who can't handle having their views challenged.

>>2330180
>>2330180
https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Pages/dogbite-summary.aspx
http://enhs.umn.edu/current/6120/bites/dogbiterisk.html

http://www.americancaninefoundation.com/images/FatalDogAttackStudy2.htm
http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/dog-care/common-dog-behavior-issues/aggression

I don't have dogs anymore as I work two jobs and don't have the time to properly care for one. But hey I brought up four sources, now go kill yourself faggot.

damn, when did it get this easy to bait /an/? Nobody used to fall for this kind of shit.

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>>2329775
If you want a Doberman, get one from a European breeder. The European Doberman are different from American ones. Americans ones are inferior and are used for show and have lost their original traits that made them good.

>>2329775
Those contracts aren't legal or enforceable in court.

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Are we sure OP doesn't just want some knotty action?

>>2331625
That's probably it.

Also with spay and neuter contracts, I'm pretty sure they don't make you do it immediately. I'm not sure what's the average cut off limit for contracts but if you expressed actual concern and backed it up with reputable info you could probably get it extended if it's too short. I know with large breeds like great danes it's almost two years before they stop fully growing? Something like that. If OP laid off the zoophile sites he'd have reason not to neuter too early other than none at all but apparently dragon dildoes just aren't good enough for him.

>>2331615
Source? Why aren't they legal or enforceable?

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>>2329932

I don't understand either. Intact Doberman are cute dogs.

>>2331701
>Why aren't they legal or enforceable?
three reasons:
1. Possession is 9/10ths. The instant you drive off with your pet it's yours to do with as you like.
2. If the seller is actually able to tell you what to do with your property or demand that you return it, it isn't yours by law. That's a lease, not a sale. In a legal sale the owner doesn't get to tell you how you'll use your property or dispose of it.
3. To be legal a contract has to benefit both parties. If the seller is taking your money, demanding access to your property and person, and giving you nothing in return (the dog isn't yours as long as they can take it back), then they aren't giving you anything. One-sided contracts aren't legal contracts.
>Source?
t. contractor with contract lawyer on retainer.

>>2331710
So pretty with flopsy ears

>>2331701
After doing a bit of googling and reading it appears I'm only half right.

I found cases where courts have shot down the contract on the grounds that the repossession clause is unreasonable. Several lawyers online advise not to enter into that kind of contract for this very reason.

In other cases states have taken the position that the contract is legal and results in co-ownership between the breeder and the buyer. This has resulted in interesting cases where the breeder has been successfully sued for vet bills incurred by the dog, and for damage done to others when the dog attacks someone or destroys property. Kinda ironic. Sell a dog with a contract designed to protect your interest in the animal and suddenly you're on the hook for paying its expenses.

Anyways, several law sites online just tell people not to sign a contract that allows a breeder to repossess a dog for any reason they feel like.

>>2331713
>Possession is 9/10ths.
>using idioms without understanding what they mean

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_is_nine-tenths_of_the_law
>"In a property dispute (whether real or personal), in the absence of clear and compelling testimony or documentation to the contrary, the person in actual, custodial possession of the property is presumed to be the rightful owner. The rightful owner shall have their possession returned to them; if taken or used. The shirt or blouse you are currently wearing is presumed to be yours, unless someone can prove that it is not."
>in the absence of clear and compelling testimony or documentation to the contrary
>in the absence of [...] documentation to the contrary\

A contract is documentation to the contrary m80.

>That's a lease
How do you know it is not a lease until the specified conditions are met? Please think a little before you post.

>To be legal a contract has to benefit both parties.

Again you bring up things you clearly have a minimal understanding of. Vehicle or apartment leases are contracted and perfectly legal, yet they are allowed to revoke the vehicle if certain conditions aren't meant (e.g. not paying the lease). If the contract stipulates that you have to neuter the dog or they will revoke your possession of the dog, guess what, they can revoke your possession of the dog if you do not neuter.

Just because you know a contract lawyer does not mean you are one m80.

>>2332669
>Vehicle or apartment leases are contracted and perfectly legal
that is my point.

it isn't a contract to sell, it's a lease.

if you want to lease a dog go ahead, but don't pretend you're buying it.

>writes really long post trying to disagree
>agrees with everything I said
ok, thanks

>>2329775
Pay more for an intact animal then, you fucking faggot.

Of course there's always entitled faggots like you who want to deny breeders money and whine about prices.

I wish they would charge more. It would
A. stop people who don't want to spend money on their pets (people like you) from having them

B. help stop irresponsible shitheads from backyard breeding and shitting up the breed lines.

>>2329783
>but their skeletal, circulatory, and muscular systems all take a huge hits to health
and cutting off it's tail doesn't?
shit tier b8

I'll be honest here, the only shitheads I see here are people who support dog breeding in general.
All these health issues you people try to avoid would be solved with gene mixing. Can't ait for half of the breeds to become pug tier health cess pools.

>>2329805
Alright dumbass, spaying/neutering are some of the lowest cost things that a vet can perform nowadays. see: low cost spay/neuter clinics.

Spaying has been shown to be clearly beneficial to females. Neutering in males is still a 50/50 in an individual but herd health wise- it is good.
I do however agree that large breed dogs should be neutered later on in life (between 1-4 years depending on the dog) and that breeders should alter their contracts as such.

>>2330057
Can you tell me if those studies are controlled by age of neutering and breed? And those studies are ancient.

It is a general consensus in the veterinary field (outside of shelters) that large/giant breed dogs need to be neutered later in life to help reduce the ligament issues you mentioned. As for cancer, goldens are the only ones shown to have increased cancer rates (I forgot if it was controlled with age at fixing) and the main cancer males dogs have an increased risk of is prostatic cancer, this may or may not be reduced with increased age at neuter.

Of course every procedure has plus and minuses.

Here are more updated papers for you:
Hoffman, 2013. Reproductive capability is associated with lifespan and cause of death in companion dogs.

Hart, 2013. Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers

>>2329783
Castrated animals literally grow bigger than intact ones dipshit

>>2331710
floppy ears should be bred out of existence, are there any wild animals that have them?
that tail is a disgrace too

>>2333107
>2333107
yes tail will become broken if you intend to roughhouse train it, this will lead to greater problems down the road

>>2333107
you are smart

>>2333107
Elephants.
And your point is... Do you want domestic animals to be bred out of existence?

>>2332692
>""""shitting up"""" the breed lines
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCv10_WvGxo

>>2333847
>CollegeHumor
>Lib-tard bullshit
>Same people who ally themselves with PETA

Anon pls. Any reputable breeder will have a series of genetic test done to avoid the types of deficiencies that are known to plague the breed. Those deficiencies are the result of BYB shitting up the breed lines. Fun fact: Those mutts you're so proud of are just as susceptible to those genetic issues if one or both of their parents suffer from the condition. Because, you know, genetics.