Animal Training General - /train/

Gonna start the thread off with the good ol "Cesar Milan vs. clicker training" debate that spawns at least a few threads each week. I am a professional trainer working predominantly in complex free release environments. I use only positive reinforcement training methods and I believe it is the best, most effective, and most "humane" (though not saying all other methods are inhumane) training method. People call positive-only trainers fluffy, weak, poor leaders, etc., but the truth is...it is the best and most effective training method.

come @ me, "dominance" trainers

I do behavior training (mainly fixing aggression or fear) with a wide range of animals and do more traditional training with dogs although I do dabble with other animals for shits and giggles. I used to train dogs at a shelter until I started trying my hand at a training business.

Never, ever, ever be in dog (or any animal for that matter) training business by yourself. People are such dumb Fucking dickheads. See, the problem with training classes is the majority of the animals you get are in that class because they have an issue. And that alone is fine, I find it incredibly rewarding actually seeing a positive change in what was a shitty animal. However, there's usually a reason why they got that issue in the first place. Maybe the owners are lazy, maybe they are dumb, whatever it is, it will continue to happen after they bring the animal home. Any progress that happens in class, they go home and get scraps from the table, or maybe for the rest of the week they don't get out for a walk or not another second is spent on training. It's infuriating, especially when they come back mad or saying their dumb dog didn't learn anything, and I ask if they did anything I asked them to and they didn't.

Before you can have success in training you need to satisfy basic needs first. How do people not understand this? You wouldn't make a dog who hasn't eaten in 4 days sit and stay for a treat, why would you make a dog that has cabin fever do the same?

>>2301897
Literally everything you said is so true. I don't train dogs as my main profession but sometimes I help friends or their families with training and so far it's been 90% training the people and 10% training the actual dog. And even people who genuinely want to learn and be good trainers and use positive methods give up after about 0.0000001 seconds of trying.

Especially for fixing behavioral issues (although they're all just normal family dogs, nothing with aggression or anything). Here's the average conversation about leash walking. Client in black, me in green.
Hi, anon trainer, your animals are trained so amazingly I would love to learn how you do it. I am willing to put in the time and effort to learn. My dog pulls on his leash the whole walk, how can I fix it?
>The best method is to train it in an environment without distractions, so just start leash training in your house. Reward your dog for walking nicely by your side and not having any tension on the leash.
Oh, that sounds kinda hard. I just want to walk with him. Is there anything else I can do?
>Your dog's pulling is being reinforced by getting to go where he wants to go. Every time your dog pulls, stop walking until the leash gets slack again. Then continue. This way you aren't rewarding his pulling. With consistency he will figure it out quickly.
Great idea! I'll do it!
>Does it for literally a minute.
Oh, he doesn't understand. This isn't working. Guess he'll never be fixed...

Sorry that was a bit of a rant. People act like they care a lot about their dog's behavioral issues until it comes to actually having to DO SOMETHING to fix them. Then laziness just takes over.

>>2301787
>>2301897

New dog owner here.
When is the best age to train a dog?

>>2302676
Hi! Dog training isn't my main business and it sounds like the other anon probably has more expertise than me, but I'd say right now. Just have baby expectations for a baby dog - i.e., it's impossible to train a new puppy to hold his pee or poop for 8 hours because he physically can't. But you can train him to hold it for 1 hour! It takes time, consistency, and lots of positive reinforcement but with realistic expectations and a positive attitude I think you can train any age puppy!

This may not be related to training but how do I tell if my dog is going deaf or just ignoring me? She's 14 or 15 and still going strong but I've noticed if she's a bit far in the yard it's can be a pain to call her back in the past few months. I can whistle very loud but her ears don't even twitch. She won't come back unless she turns her head and sees me and even then she seems to pause to figure out what I'm trying to tell her before she comes running. She used to bark a good four times whenever anyone opened our front door or she somehow magically knew someone was approaching the house but it hasn't been happening lately. Can't tell if it's because we don't have guests anymore or her hearing.
In the actual house it seems totally fine but sometimes I do have to do my loud whistle in the house if she's on another floor as opposed to my short indoor whistle or calling her name.

If she isn't hearing me, is there a way I can get her attention at a distance? Now I really can't trust her off leash. She will bolt for a squirrel or rabbit but her recall was perfect and she'd stop and return immediately. With this going on I don't feel comfortable with her off leash.

>>2302676
You can train a dog at any age after it's weaned, just keep in mind it's limitations and don't expect too much out of it at an early age or a dog with impaired senses or movement.

>>2302787
I will make an annoying or interesting sound right behind their head to see if their ears move or if they turn to look at it. Unfortunately past the deaf/not deaf test you'd need to go to a vet, and probably a specialist, to see the extent of his hearing. It's controversial but vibration collars are a good tool to get a dog's attention if they otherwise can't hear you. You'll have to train that basically when he feels the collar vibrate, he has to look for you. From there you can signal him over. Or alternatively teach that the vibrate means to come to you. Other than some kind of sensation collar you could use a very long lead like what they use in recall training and use the tugging sense as a hint to come back, but that's not really off leash anymore. As his hearing gets worse try to make all of his commands visible with hand signals on top of vocal.

>>2302676
Different anon here but I've trained a lot of rescue dogs.
It depends what kind of training you mean. Socialization must be done before 16 weeks. If a puppy has never interacted with another dog or hasn't been exposed to new environments before that age, it's always going to have confidence issues. Most dogs dumped at shelters end up there because idiots buy them young and lock them in a crate/single room for months and then wonder why their dog is fearful or aggressive towards strangers.
General behaviour training should be started immediately. Boundaries must be set from the beginning, such as not getting on furniture, not jumping on people and no begging for food scraps.
Tricks and housebreaking really depend on the dog. Some dogs will understand the concept quickly, others will take months. These things can be taught at any age though. Honestly I found teaching adult dogs tricks + housebreaking to be easier than puppies.

There are some important things you can get started with right from the beginning, even before what people generally consider to be "training".

For example an important one is regularly rub down the puppy's entire body, gently and with a lot of praise. Teaching a dog not to freak out when a human handles (and holds) their paws will make adult nail care much easier.

>>2302807
>I will make an annoying or interesting sound right behind their head to see if their ears move or if they turn to look at it.
That's what makes me wonder if she is having trouble hearing because she does react within a certain distance, whether it's in the house where she isn't distracted or outside. Not exactly sure how well a dogs hearing is but I'm not sure if vibration of my voice has anything to do with it. I tried some testing in the yard but she knows I'm up to something no matter how I go about it(pretending I'm leaving her, sneaking around from the front yard). Aside from this hearing thing she's very attentive. She won't even eat unless I tell her too and seems to wait to be told to do anything. Since there's snow everywhere and nothing makes her happier than snow maybe she is too preoccupied with it.
I'll ask the vet since her shots are due soon.

Last question since I think all I can do now is get her checked by a vet but
Why is a vibration collar controversial? Like people comparing it to shock collars or just about the effectiveness?

>>2302809
>>2302807
>>2302768
Thanks for the response, I'm looking mainly on how to keep it from fighting other dogs, shit whenever I take it out, not pulling from the collar when talking a walk and come at me at command.

Is there any other command a dog must know?
I've read a few articles and videos online, it seems most people think positive reinforcement is the best way to train a dog, except when they're too aggressive towards other people or dog, it seems most people seem to prefer negative reinforcement training.

>>2302837
They are basically the same thing. If you set the vibration high enough, it shocks the dog. On a low setting, it's a vibration. It's controversial because it can hurt the dog, it can be misused and create a neurotic or nervous dog, and it creates a dependency on the collar. For example, if someone needs a vibration collar to keep their dog from chewing things, and the dog won't chew things because of the collar. But when you take the collar off, you now have now way to stop the dog chewing, and some dogs will recognize that the collar is the source of the vibration and start being a dick when it's off. However, if your dog is deaf, that's a handicap that you will need some sort of crutch one way or another. If your dog does turn to be deaf, you already rely on visual communication now instead of verbal.

tl;dr both reasons you stated make it controversial

>>2302836
This this this. Makes shit easier in the future.

>>2302890
>>2302890
Drop it is so fucking important. Got a chicken bone? Drop it. Have the neighbor's cat? Drop it. Got a kid's arm? Drop it. And very few dogs actually know this command. Other important ones would be recall (coming back to a command or hearing it's name), and stay. Basics would be like sit and down.

I have this radical idea that every quadrant of operant conditioning is fair game for training. However, I do highly recommend for the first two weeks or so (may be more depending on the dog) to only use positive reinforcement while the dog is building a relationship with you. This includes puppies too. You don't want to break a dog's trust when it isn't comfortable with you yet. Anyway, + reinforcement trainers actually tend to use negative punishment and negative reinforcement too and don't realize it. You ever heard the method positive trainers use with walking, how they stop when the dog pulls to teach it that it doesn't get to go where it wants when it pulls? That's taking something away (negative) that the dog likes (punishment) to get a behavior. Negative punishment.

>>2302890
>>2302907
Continued

As far aggressive animals go, I don't like to react to it with physical force which most people seem to do. Adding aggression to aggression only creates more aggression. I don't like how many trainers react to dog aggression and stranger aggression. People throw the dogs down, pin them, force their mouths closed, etc. Other trainers will sometimes say that's how the dog is and will always be, which isn't helpful and just admitting defeat. I really like how Tyler Muto handles it; look up his videos for reference. But once you get a dog aggressive dog, unless you know dog behavior very well and have acess to several well trained dogs, you are going to need a trainer specialized in dog training. If you're getting a puppy, start out with socialization with dogs YOU KNOW are good dogs to establish a good connection, but look into puppy ;fear' periods and limit dog interactions during those times. If you have an adult dog that isn't aggressive, just keep socializing him with dogs frequently. If your dog is dog aggressive, you need to get help from a professional.

>>2302907
>>2302908

Pretty much every website says how the first two weeks with the new dog should be an exciting-less period, like no shouts, no travels, no change in diet, etc, I was planing on waiting at least that much before initiating training, specially so that I can get used to the dog's routine and he gets used to mine.

What are your favorite treats used in dog training?
Also, castration of females, is it a must?

>>2302913
If a dog will eat carrots, I'll give them carrots. Otherwise whatever they will eat. Keep in mind for training like drop it, you need to find a high value reward to give the dog insentive. Some dogs aren't into treats, and that's ok too. You can find whatever it is they do like, like a ball or rope. I had a dog that was perfectly fine with attention as a reward, she was a little attention whore. Because of that she was actually extremely easy to train.

You have to be honest with yourself on what you can handle. If you don't think you are in a situation to make sure your dog does not get lose or does not meet other dogs, then I recommend spaying as soon as possible. If you believe you are capable of keeping her away from intact males, then I recommend waiting until she is fully grown, which depends on how big of a dog she is. Getting pregnant too early is more life threatening to the dog and her puppies than a pediatric spay. It's not necessarily a must, but having an intact dog severely limits you currently. Fixed and unfixed dogs (regardless of sex) tend to challenge each other more. Many places that allow dogs will only allow fixed dogs. So it's something to consider.

When zinc sterilization becomes more fine tuned and widely used it may be different but that wont happen for a while.

>>2302890
This is actually a common misconception. Aggression problems are actually best fixed by positive reinforcement too. Of course, this training is very nuanced and requires an experienced trainer-if you are struggling with aggression problems, I wouldn't recommend tackling it by yourself. But punishing aggression with more aggression (the Cesar Milan way: pinning, alpha rolls, hitting, intimidation, etc.) actually exacerbates the problem and usually makes the aggression much, much worse.

Thankfully you have a new pupper and preventing aggression in the first place is about 100000 times easier than untraining it. You are in a good position!

>>2302907
I get what you're saying but I have 2 disagreements with your critique of positive reinforcement trainers.
First, that method of loose leash training isn't what positive reinforcement trainers recommend. It's starting in the home and reinforcing the dog for being next to you on a loose leash, before raising criteria to outside and working on loose leash walking there. All +r.
Second let's be honest people's perception of the quadrants of operant conditioning are way, way different than the technical terms. People hear "negative reinforcement" and are thinking of positive punishment. One anon did this in the thread already. For most trainers saying "I use positive reinforcement only" is way simpler and easier than trying to explain the quadrants and why negative reinforcement doesn't involve hitting your dog. But really, a positive reinforcement trainer is using much more actual positive reinforcement than you think; even an LRS, which even very experienced trainers think is the same as a "mini time out," is actually positive reinforcement.

Who are your favorite famous animal trainers? On YouTube, books, etc.

I recently read a book by Dr. Grey Stafford called Zoomility which I really, really enjoyed. He is a famous dolphin trainer.

>>2303888
I like Tyler Muto, and kikopup is good for absolute beginners. Stay away from any trainer that gets into drama. If they have the time to get into little petty internet fights, then obviously their real life dog training job isn't doing well

>>2304040
That's a really good tip, thanks. I will check him out.

Have been training horses for 12 years. It's amazing what you can accomplish just by not being a dick to them.

>>2304179
That's awesome. What training methods do you use?

I'd love to work with horses, I was very involved as a teenager but was basically given an ultimatum in my horseback riding career: either buy my own horse or never be able to move on to a competitive level. Couldn't afford a horse so that's where my horse career ended. The girl I had been riding with my whole life (we were about the same level and progressed together) ended up going to the olympics...

>>2304192
Unfortunately it's not something I'm able to make a career out of, I do it in my spare time. I don't train show horses or any kind of sport/competition horses. I specialize in rescue/rehab situations and horses with serious behavioral problems as a result of abuse/neglect/improper training. My training focuses on turning a fearful/dangerous animal into a confident, trusting mount that can then go on to do bigger and better things with more specialized training in whatever career they end up in for their new owners.

I don't use gimmicky methods and honestly haven't really studied any of the big name trainers or their methods - so I can't really comment on them, I just prefer to do things my own way. Everything I do has come from years of observing horses interact with each other both in the wild and in domestic herds. As cliche or corny as it might sound, you really have to know how to speak their language to communicate effectively with them - bullying a horse into anything is generally a really bad idea, and why I don't have much respect for the average trainer that relies on force. As for specific methods, it varies quite a bit depending on what I'm trying to do with a horse, too much to really go into with broad strokes, but I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about specific situations where you'd be interested in my input.

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Looking for some advice on training my dog. His mom was a full blooded husky and his dad was a German Shepard/coonhound mix. He is 1 year old and has the husky personality, but he is a very stubborn dog. He knows basic tricks like sit, speak, shake, lie down. The only trouble I'm having with him is that he does not want to listen to any commands besides those 4. I'd like to be able to train him so I could take him on hikes with me in the mountain, but I'm very afraid he will just run off. I could always just use a leash but I've always been around dogs that listen so well you don't need one (I live in a remote area so him getting hit by a car, etc. isn't really an issue). I could get a professional to train him, but I have the time to do it and would prefer to do it myself. Pic related, him as a puppy