manta rays ready to join the self-aware bunch

Tangled manta ray swims to divers for help, swims away once free:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLww3kCEgrI

how the hell would a mark test even work for a manta ray?

>>2264958
I dont think it would work at all. They visit cleaning sites to temove parasites and often have those fishes with the sucker head attached to them so they probably wouldn't care about marks.

Are manta rays even capable of seeing their own reflections in mirrors? Do they even have the right kind of eyes for that?

I mean obviously they must have some kind of sight, but is it any more complex than being able to differentiate between lightness and darkness?

How do scientists know that the manta rays are seeing light waves, and not using their electrical thingies to sense the metal underneath the glass that gives mirrors their reflective properties? The same way most fish use their electrical thingies to sense each other and north/south while navigating?

>>2265024
nice try, manta ray. we know about you.

>>2265024
Because manta rays are large visually based vertebrates?

They use their eyes to identify predators, so they probably see decent.

>>2264938

oh boy here come the manta rights campaigners

>>2264938
This is ridiculous cartilage fish are too primitive for cognitive self awareness.

>>2265132
Remember the Octopus, or perhaps the jumping spider? Surprising intelligence can crop up in the most unusual of places.

>>2265132
>primitive means dumb
>paradgims are immutable
That's not how it works, champ.

>>2265132
They have the largest brain of any fish and surprisingly many glia cells.

>>2265101
Fuck off. They are endangered and since they breed so slowly they are very vulnerable to overfishing.

Its amazing that an animal like a Manta Ray could display intelligence or awareness; they don't really seem like the type that could when you look at them. Why would such an obscure filter feeder be intelligent?

File: a1047112b001c16a9af6c001fef50523[1].jpg (33KB, 260x220px) Image search: [Google]

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>>2265183
we just don't know

what does it matter if they are able to recognize themselves in a mirror? why is that significant?

>>2265240
Sentience is a key component to Sapience.
Understanding the idea of Self means you can understand more abstract thoughts.

>>2264938
>they blow bubbles
how?

>>2265248
Through their gills, you can see it in one of the videos.

>>2265171
Well, they've been bred and reared in captivity, so we're getting there.

>>2265286
Good.

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>mirror test
pic related

>>2265170
Don't they also give birth to live young?

How the hell do fish even do that? I know that at least one shark species gives birth to live young, as well as at least one snake species. But that's more about the eggs being so soft of shell that they basically hatch while still inside their mothers. And in the case of the shark, the first to hatch cannibalizes the rest of the brood. Which is fucking horrifying when you think about it. The shark is born from from a literal graveyard inside of it's mother comprised of half eaten corpses of it's own siblings.

Please tell me manta rays aren't that gruesome. They're too adorable to be that macabre.

>>2265393
>adorable
bro i dont think we're looking at the same animal

>>2265395
You don't think manta rays are adorable? They are giant swimming sea pancakes! How is that not adorable?

>>2265395
I know they're weird but they're kinda cute m8

>>2265240
If you start asking why it's important for us to know stuff we would stop making progress. Great achievements are made up of many many small pieces of information

Im skeptical that you can apply the mirror test to rays but it wouldn't surprise me that they were fairly intelligent. I spend a lot of time spearfishing and the most behaviourally complex animals besides seals and octopodes ive seen are shorttail stingrays. They look like spaceships but they appear curious, investigating anything unusual they see. They will also interact with you in a way a normal fish wont, you can pet them and feed them fish. Anecdotal evidence maybe, but you would definitely have to say theyre way above the level of most fish

>>2265393
They do live birth the same way, but without the eating each other thing. They're filter feeders.

WOW, VERY COOL!

>>2264938
>manta rays ready to join the self-aware bunch
>haven't actually passed a mirror test
>any minute though, let's jump the gun