Thinking about getting a dog. I hear these guys are the best

>>2204390
Border collies are insanely smart and not a breed I would recommend for your first dog (you didn't say if it was or not).
You also didn't mention the fact that you need to find work for it to do, they aren't dogs you can just keep in the house all day. Walks aren't optional for any dog, but certainly not a border collie, so unless you can commit to making sure the dog gets plenty of exercise and mental stimulation, pick something else.

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I'm a first time BC owner, got mine in November at 8 weeks old. She's little under 12 months now.

Great breed. Her intelligence continues to blow my mind. Has an understanding for things that I never got out of other breeds before.
They learn very fast and are wonderful dogs for companionship.

You DO have to make quite an effort though. Not nearly as much as some weenies around here imply, but they do need lots of play and attention, especially in the early months. More than most other breeds. The herding and nipping is frustrating but pretty easy to train them out of. For mine it just sort of stopped naturally, although she still tries to grab my shoes sometimes to play. For the first couple months though, my hands looked like fucking hamburger meat thanks to them sharp puppy teeth.

Long story short: If you have the time, feel like you can make the effort, you'll end up with a dog you'll be both proud to raise and love spending time with and playing with.

Border collies come from a working line, and are NOT appropriate for people that are couch potato fat-back motherfuckers. If you're active, then they are down with any damn thing you're up to, however, if you're a lazy fuck, they'll make your life a living hell.

A typical "shit" tier border collie will engage you with a game of fetch until YOU get sick of the game. They'll literally grab the ball / whatever, drop it in front of you, and give you the look that says "throw it bitch", and when you throw it, they'll run, grab the ball, and drop it right in front of you to do it again....and again....and again, until you tap the fuck out.

They're great dogs, unless you're a couch potato.

English bulldogs are one of the breeds invented for couch potatoes....

>>2204390
Border collies are too fucking smart for their own good. My girlfriend's Border collie was great at getting attention when he wanted it. He would fake injury and illness for cuddles, refuse dog food and even dog treats so visitors would give him people food, would hide his dog toys behind the couch so we'd buy more, and he'd take all of them out and put them behind our pillows so we would be forced to 'interact' with the toys (throw them off the bed) and play with him. His worst is finding things people 'obsess' over and taking them and running with it. Keys, shoes, silverware, clothes. One day he jumped on the toilet and got to my girlfriend's birth control pills she takes every morning. Can't just let a dog eat a month of BC, so we had to chase him for an hour and he had a fucking blast.

But yeah, intelligence does not equate to easier to train or easier to handle. It just means they are more clever at fucking with you.

>>2204420
Your friend sounds like she doesn't have a clue how to train a collie, but yes you are right intelligence does not equal easier to train.

If you're looking for an easy to train dog, get a German Shepherd, fantastic first time dogs.

If you're looking for a lap dog that will still go for a walk or run whenever , cockapoo / spoodle are probably the best breed going, many don't shed hair due to poodle genes and they're absolutely mad for playing catch due to the cocker spaniel and poodles originally being working / hunting dogs.

I would make sure you really know your stuff before getting a collie, they are extremely high maintenance and I'd say if the animal isn't going to be a working dog then don't get one, they live to work, not sit in a house and be walked a few times a day.

>>2204390
I want a Border Collie so much, but I just don't have the space for them right now. Maybe I will one day, when the time is right.

>>2204449
cockapoo / spoodle are probably the best breed
>breed
>cockapoo
>spoodle
I hope you realize why you are retarded.

>>2204390
Border collies are a lot of work, not always the best as pets as they can easily get bored without enough stimulation. Very intelligent dogs though

>>2204420
I'll bet you fucking anything she did "positive only" training, dumb fucking bitch, This is EXACTLY WHY positive only training doesn't work, and EXACTLY WHY dogs, especially a highly intelligent dog like a BC, need an owner who is willing and able to be a pack leader.

"Positive only" training has got to to be the biggest crock of shit in dog training ever. It's literally destroying dogs like the BC in this post.

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Hijacking this a bit since it's loosely related to adoption.

If I just want a fatass idiot cat to sit on my lap while I do my coding and shit, would it be worth heading down to the shelter and getting an older guy to hang out with, or would the health problems end up making it not worth it?

>>2204901
Tons of cats get health issues like urinary crystals at only 3-4 years old. It's a crapshoot whether they'll live for 5 years or for 20. If it's been in the shelter for a while they'll be able to tell the general health. Either way you'll be giving an old cat a better life for a while.

As a Border Collie owner, let me tell you not to believe all the horror stories about them needing constant attention and exercise, that these guys are trying to press on you.

I've had Maverick for 4 years now. I don't work hard caring for him, and he's fine He's healthy and happy.

Yes. They do need a good amount of exercise, but as long as you've got land for them to explore, or you play with them regularly, and provide them with some good mental stimuli when you aren't playing, they should be fine. They just have a lot of energy. There are was of helping them burn off that energy without needing kill yourself doing it.

As others have stated, they are smart as fuck and will figure out ways around whatever obstacles you put in front of them. Maverick has gotten to the point where he knows exactly what time I get up in the morning and will bark loudly and pull the covers off of me when it's time for me to wake up. The first thing I do when I wake up in the morning is turn on my computer. Maverick learned to press the power button.

Yes, his coat is a pain to deal with.

>>2204901
As the other guy said, total crap shoot. Your cat could explode in a UTI at 4, or i5 could die at 18 years old with only going to a vet for a yearly check up.

Don't get an ancient cat. Get a cat around 4 to 8 years old. They have more than half their life ahead of them, and are at the age they'll be relaxed and established, but not hyperactive. Well, as a general rule of thumb. My girlie is 7, and she is a hyperactive little fuck. Every cat is different!

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>>2204420
>outsmarted by a dog

Can't make this shit up

>>2204938
18? There's plenty of outdoor cats fed the nastiest kibbles and never taken to the vet making it 20+. You never know.

*DISCLAIMER* anecodotal evidence is not a good reason to take poor care of a cat!

>>2204929
Your dog sounds based.

>>2205029
Maverick can be an asshole at times. I have to lock him outside whenever me and my gf are about to fuck, because he instinctively knows when we are fucking and would stand outside of my bedroom door and howl loudly. This is the only fucking time when he does that! I could just be in my room with the door closed for ANY other reason and he won't do this. Immediately after I let him back in he'll go up and try to sniff her pussy and then look at me like I'm a dumbass.

He tries to herd other dogs at the park, like he's the leader, and they all fucking listen to him.

He tried to hide my PS4 controller on multiple occasions. He even put it in the trash once. He puts other things in or near the trash that he sees me using.

If I yell at people over the mic, he will bark at the TV.

He'll leave his leash in front of the door, even if I put it somewhere else, like we should always be ready to go for a walk.

If there is no water in his bowl, he will try to get it himself, by climbing up on the sink.

Yeah he's a pain in the ass at times, but I love him.

>>2204880
She follows Caesar Milan's teaching and the alpha pack theory. I don't agree with it but it's not my dog and i don't take care of it.

>>2204880

People like you are so dumb. I'd like to know what "negative training" consists of it because Ive kept dogs my whole life and never once had to use force to get them to do what I want. Anyone can do it who's not a moron.

>>2204420
>>2205052

Got a good laugh out of these. Thanks guys.


My dog's (pit/golden retriever cross) best friend is a border collie and she comes over every summer for a couple of weeks while her owners are on holiday. The BC isn't that high maintenance, she's pretty content with going to the park and playing fetch (she's obsessed with balls) whereas my dog gets bored after 10 minutes and prefers to go for actual walks where she can sniff and explore. The BC learns fast though, she learned how to "speak" just by watching my dog do it and is generally a good girl although she does get a bit anxious sometimes. She's also quite submissive but does growl when my dog is fucking about too much and won't stop booping her ears with her nose - which is what she does when she wants to play with another dog. We haven't seen her in about two months now, really miss seeing them play together!

>>2204968
One of mine lived to be 24, suppposedly (we adopted her and were told she was 18). No teeth, couldn't jump because of a bad hip but absolutely loved to bully the shit out of her son.

She finally passed away after howling loudly and taking a long, liquid shit on the kitchen floor. Her son couldn't have been happier and crapped on the grave as soon as we buried her, probably because the soil was freshly dug but I like to think he knew what he was doing.

>>2205197
Pack Leader Theory has nothing to do withe negative training, you fucking cretin. It has to do with being a pack leader to your dog. Your dog knows the boundaries, knows what it can and cannot do, knows it cannot question you, and knows there will be consequences to your actions if it disobeys.

>>2205331

You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Stay wrong, kiddo.

>>2205332
No. You aren't. Dogs need leaders. They just do. If you sit around and treat your dog like an equal and don't give it the leadership it craves, it will take that leadership itself, which will cause all kinds of behavioral issues.

I hope you don't own dogs. I really do.

>>2205333

Perhaps you should stop getting all your information from Discovery and Animal Planet.

I really hope you dont own dogs, kiddo. If you do they must be pretty miserable.

>>2205144
>the alpha pack theory. I don't agree with it

Do you think there's no social hierarchy in dogs?

>>2205197
>Ive kept dogs my whole life and never once had to use force to get them to do what I want.

Bullshit.

So you've never had your dogs ignore you, requiring you to physically go to them, and say, pull them off furniture, or take away something they've been chewing on, or whatever? You've never used your body to block the dog from something, like escaping out of a room, or door, or to prevent it from grabbing something?

That's using force.

>>2205466
He is probably a dumb cuck who thinks his dog is his equal. So long if it is disobeying him, he doesn't care. The cancer that is positive dog training teaches there is no consequence to disobeying

>>2205335
Do you think dogs don't need leaders?

Like 90% of all behavioral problems with pet dogs comes from a failure to establish pack structure and leadership in the home.

>>2205476
>The cancer that is positive dog training teaches there is no consequence to disobeying

What's funny is that some of the "positive only" trainers like to point to marine mammals as an example of how effective "positive only" training can be, and how punishment is never used in their training.....which is 100% bullshit. I've seen interviews where some mewing woman says some stupid shit like "...you can't punish a dolphin or a 3000 pound whale."

WRONG.

They punish the FUCK out of any marine mammal that refuses to cooperate.

How?

They starve that motherfucker into submission. When flipper the dolphin doesn't want to work for fish, they just stop feeding that motherfucker until he gets hungry enough.

Still don't want to cooperate?

Fine. They've got something for that ass. It's called solitary confinement. Most marine mammals are social creatures, which means, like us, they don't like isolation. Non-compliant animals are simply locked the fuck up in isolation with ZERO stimulation until they finally decide that interacting with a trainer for fish is more pleasant than staring at 4 walls for hours, or days, at a time.

Positive punishment may not be practical for marine mammals, but you can punish the shit out of those fuckers using NEGATIVE punishment, and that's exactly what the fuck they do. If you starve something long enough, it will be willing to work for food, and likewise, if you isolate a social creature long enough, it'll be willing to interact with damn near ANY other living creature.

I wonder why the "positive only" people never mention this when they're talking shit about the "positive only" approach to training marine mammals?

>>2205476
>cuck
/pol/ please leave

>>2205488
It's hilarious how fucking I'll informed these positivetards are. They literally don't understand a single thing about the world, let alone dog training.

>>2205491
Nope.

But it's easier to sell people the pleasant lie they want to hear, instead of the unpleasant truth they want to ignore.

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lol @ this thread
how anybody could ever have taken this quack seriously is beyond me
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihXq_WwiWM

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>>2205497
Mexican dude has a far greater understanding of dog behavior and hierarchy than any "positive only" trainer that's ever existed.

Dog behavior and communication is based largely on an escalation of force concept that starts in the litter and goes: Body language, vocalizations, physical contact.

The more assertive a dog is, the more willing it is to escalate any given confrontation.

Mexican dude understands this and uses the same basic forms of communication with the dogs to get their respect and obedience.

As for getting bit? If you work with aggressive dogs long enough, you're going to make a mistake eventually, and the dog's going to make sure you never forget that mistake.

for a first dog no.
>>2204395
this basically. if they don't get stimulation they go fucking crazy in the head, they're too smart for their own good.

>>2205489
unfortunately, cuck is pretty much mainstream these days thanks to kikebart. Even fucking reddit uses cuck now.

>>2205497
This guy is a joke. And unfortunately my sister believes his bullshit and treats her dog like shit. I always spoil the shit out of it when she's not around

>>2204390
Well I don't really have anything to add, so I'll talk about our dog... We lucked out with a BC that's just as happy to nap than to play/walk/go for a ride in a car. She loves cuddles and wants to be petted nonstop, all the damn time. If someone stops petting her she will go to the next person and beg for attention. I suspect that she'd love nothing else to be a lap dog if she was smaller.

She also sheds a metric fuckton. Kinda resigned to a life full of dog hair now.

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cant go wrong with goldens

>>2204405
How many hours a day have you been dedicating to her?

>>2205461
I don't think dogs think people are dogs.

>>2205488
Okay, what do if a dog disobeys?

>>2204929
How much land is that? How many acres?
And how much time do you play with him?
I'm asking because I'm absolutely clueless as to what it is like...

>>2204390
BC owner here.
I also volunteer at a local BC rescue.

I would say that in general, yes, they are great companions. Most will always want to be with you, and interested in what you are doing. You can expect them to always be in whatever room you are in.They are very much "Velcro dogs", Doberman level even.

Temperament, now that's a bit of a crapshoot. While it's true that they should be very friendly, biddable, and love working with people, these dogs are very easy to fuck up. If not socialized properly, they are prone to reactive and fear based aggressive behavior, and coupled with their instincts to stare, stalk and nip at things, can cause scary problems for you, other dogs, and children.

Obedience, yes, they can be very obedient. You need to know what you are doing, though, as they can be too smart for their own good and can just as easily learn bad behaviors as well as good. Generalizing seems to be a bit of a problem for them too, as they tend to be very specific about cues and situations (for example, "hey waitiaminute you just said sit but with a .023 second longer intonation on the i, so this might be a completely new command!").

Coat is no big deal really, all you have to do is learn to brush if you have a rough coat. They do shed all year round though.

I'm a bit biased, but if you are seriously interested, find a local BC rescue and just talk to them about wanting to know about the breed. We see the absolute worst of these guys, so they can steer you in the right direction if you just tell them what EXACTLY you are looking in a BC. They come in as many temperaments, energy levels and personalities as they do in coats and sizes.

Failing that, see if you can find local herding trials, and speak to some of the handlers. They may look crazy, but they love talking about their dogs.

>>2206053
I dont think they can think outside of their intrinsic social model.

>>2206069
And that's fine, but dogs =/= people.
Unless you are suggesting dogs have a pack theory with everything that interacts with them.
In which case you are still wrong.

>>2206096
>Unless you are suggesting dogs have a pack theory with everything that interacts with them.
Not exactly, not just with everything. My take is that it only applies to situations when cooperation is involved. That is, they don't collaborate with feral cats (and rarely do with random people), but they do collaborate with their keepers and creatures like domestic cats. I understand this "collaboration" as socializing.

In short, I guess they have a pack theory with everything that they socialize with.

>>2206111
Can you explain what exactly pack socialization is in domestic dogs? Their behaviors?

This study goes over not only the social behavior of wild wolves, but of captive wolves, domestic dogs and feral dogs. The conclusion being that the pack theory Caesar Millan and many other dog owners rely on, isn't quite what they have been told
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.523.3931&rep=rep1&type=pdf

>>2206053
>I don't think dogs think people are dogs.

Of course not.

But they can sure as hell understand body language, vocalization tones, physical contact, and priority for access to resources.

>>2206055
>what do if a dog disobeys?

It all depends on the situation, and whether or not the dog understood what you asked it to do.

Asking a dog to sit in your distraction free living room is different from asking it to sit on a busy street corner with distractions all over the place, so punishing it wouldn't be fair to the dog. However, after the dog has proven that it knows what is expected of it, even under heavy distraction, then it should be corrected for disobedience.

Corrections can range from something simple like a voice correction for dogs with soft temperaments, to physical contact, like leash corrections, pokes, or a scruff grab. The bottom line is that there must be an application of consequences that the dog finds unpleasant so that the punished behavior becomes associated with unpleasant consequences that the dog will want to avoid in the future.

Ideally, you want to use one word for discipline, like "no", or whatever, and pair it with something unpleasant, like a leash correction, and ONLY use that word for discipline issues. By associating the discipline word with an unpleasant consequence, using the word can become just as effective as the unpleasant consequence itself, and if it ignores the word, then you follow up with the physical contact or whatever you paired it with. This is EXACTLY what mother dogs do to their pups by pairing a growl with a bite when the pups need discipline.

>>2206125
Dogs establish a hierarchy based on dominance. "Dominance" is a combination of assertiveness, and the ability to back up that assertiveness by fighting, if necessary, when challenged. Dominant dogs get access to resources, like food, bitches, whatever, before less dominant dogs. The rules of the pack are established by, and enforced by, the dominant dogs.

What's so hard to understand about that?

>>2204880
>this troll again