Speculative biology

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>>2178921
Have an actual sapient dinosaur.

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It seems most other similar projects tend to speculate on elevated cleverness evolving in the Paraves clade, and this makes sense: We know some of the most intelligent extant organisms on Earth (outside of the primates) are birds, especially the crows and ravens, and certain parrots. Some of their closest extinct non-avian dinosaur relatives are the Dromaeosaurids and Troodontids, and these animals are popular points of departure for speculative evolutionists. The Maniraptoran clade (of which Dromaeosaurids, Troodontids, modern birds, and Oviraptorosaurs are all a part) has some key attributes that we share: On Earth we have only one data point for human-level intelligence so far, so it seems logical to me to look for other organisms with similar traits when speculating on potential evolution of advanced tool-using intelligence – traits like large brains, high brain to body size ratios, grasping appendages (useful for manipulating the environment), bipedal motion (to keep those grasping appendages unoccupied), living on land (as smart as dolphins are, it would be hard to use fire, smelt metals underwater), and a social structure that puts selective pressure on the ability to out-think and/or cooperate with others of your species.

Personally, I favored the Oviraptorosaurs in part to differentiate my own fiction from the rest. Oviraptorosaurian brain/body ratio may not have been quite as high as that found in the Troodontids, for example, but they do have one additional interesting trait that is similar to our own hominid forebears: probable omnivory. It seems to me that hominid and corvid intelligence may be at least partly linked to social interaction with conspecifics, but also with problem-solving to exploit different food resources. The Dromaeosaurs and Troodontids, it seems, were more likely obligate carnivores and thus would have less evolutionary pressure to develop interesting techniques for obtaining food. That, and I think Oviraptorosaurs look really cool.

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>>2178923
The carpus is the keystone,
or keyBONE.

the non-pronating semi-lunate carpal was more useful for bashing the air with feathers than bashing bones with rocks.

when you look at the ridiculously tiny differences that made all the difference you begin to seriously question Drake's equation. So many things that have to go just right...

what about Iguanodon with its opposable finger and spike? There's a better candidate.

>>2178925
>carpus
You're assuming this is the only viable method of tool manipulation.
I think the tool use of new caledonian crows show it's not the only way it can be done even if you stick only to birds.
Not even getting into more exotic forms.

>>2178926
perhaps I'm wrong but history is on my side.

mouth+foot hasn't produced in 150,000,000 years what two hands did in 2,000,000.

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What about giant insects?

>>2178929
need myelin

>>2178928
Buddy do you have any idea how many bipedal 2 handed species there were before humans came around and how far back they go?

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>>2178930
>myelin
Do arthropods not have myelin?

>>2178931
yeah, I have a pretty good idea.

how many do you suppose had a pronating wrist and opposing digit?

I know of one offhand. Iguanodon.

how many can you name?

>>2178932
no, but some have evolved analogs.

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>>2178933
But thats the thing.
2 hands didn't lead anywhere for hundreds of millions of years until our ancestors evolved a carpus and suddenly everything changed.
Whats to say the feet+mouth combo isn't just waiting for a similar adaptation?

>>2178935
>Whats to say the feet+mouth combo isn't just waiting for a similar adaptation?

150,000,000 years of failure?

If humans disappeared today I'd expect chimps to take our place.

after them it's birds, but honestly the few billion years the planet has left may not be enough for them to reach our status.

>>2178927
Is that thing supposed to be a pet?

>>2178936
>150,000,000 years of failure?
Your other example of iguanodon fits your criteria but didn't evolve into an intelligent species and lived about 150 million years ago as well.
2 hands were just a big a failure before us as mouth+feet is.

>>2178938
and that's why I suppose it's a lottery almost nobody is likely to win.

hell, cats or dogs might evolve the right tools despite being way behind chimps and birds.

or maybe rats. Or fish again.

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>>2178937
No it just a tribal intelligent dinosauroid.

>>2178939
Thats the point.
It's really to tell before the fact whats traits will allow intelligence to evolve and our sample size of one makes makes us inherently biased to anthropocentrism.

>>2178940
How does it reach his back?

>>2178941
The anthropic principle is a hell of a thing.

a sample of one doesn't allow for extrapolation.

what fucks with my mind is it took us over 4 billion years to get here and we don't have another 4 billion years on this planet before it gets eaten.

birds are more likely to rise than primates though. Just because when we start to starve we'll probably eat all the promising primates while there's no way we'll eat all the birds.

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>>2178942
With his arms silly.

>>2178943
Yeah but you got to remember most of those 4 billion years had only single celled organisms.
I'd say once you get to complex multi-celled land organisms most of the work towards forging an intelligent species is already done.
It's only been 400 million since that happened!

>>2178945
yes, a very good point.

our danger is that we'll suffer a population collapse that will kill off most multicellular life. Where I live it would only take a couple months without food for the human population to kill off the entire vertebrate population.

google bushmeat and you'll see what I mean. One little famine could set evolution back billions of years.

>>2178947
Meh lifes been through much worse and arguably came out better for it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian-Triassic_extinction_event

>>2178949
it took 1/4 billion years to get from there to us.

we don't have that many 1/4 billion years left. The odds of recovery are slim.

>>2178950
The point I'm trying to make is that the permian extinction probably accelerated the evolution of intelligent life rather then set it back.

>we don't have that many 1/4 billion years left
Correct me if I'm wrong but the end of complex multi-cellular life on earth is predicted to be 700 to 1500 million years from now yes?
Thats 3/4 to 6/4 left.
Thats even assuming that the evolution of intelligence doesn't increase or decrease the longer life has been around.

>>2178954
If it accelerated evolution then we'd never invent the internet without it because- fuck- that took a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time.

the problem is we have a bias favoring the extinction of intelligent species because they tend to be large, edible, and less populous than dumb animals.

>>2178959
Thats just your mammal bias talking.
Even then the only species with much potential are our close relatives and perhaps elephants.
No species of birds with potential are in danger of going extinct and indeed seem to be doing quite well along side humans.

>>2178961
no, I agree.
birds are probably the only sentient species that will survive human extinction.

maybe octopuses but they have some particular technological challenges.

I'm just thinking Dollo's law may mean fish are more likely to evolve into humans again before birds manage to reach our levels.

>>2178963
>maybe octopuses
They'd have to crawl out of the ocean first.
And upgrade to hemoglobin while they're at it.

>Dollo's law
How does that prevent bird intelligence?

>fish are more likely to evolve
I'd say if land life went kaput then dolphins would be the first back on land instead of fish.

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Antiarch Placoderms were early fish that had unusual properties such as armor-plated bodies and jointed, arthropod like front fins. Some species like Bothriolepis, looked like fat lampreys embedded through carapaces of lobsters. They had fairly mobile, claw-like front fins that may have enabled them to crawl through the sediment, or even onto land like mudskippers!

Suppose that the Antiarchs had beaten the later varieties of fish earlier on in the "land race" during the late Devonian.

Weird, polydactyl fish-salamanders like Acanthostega were the ancestors of every land-living vertebrate today. As the Acanthostegans crawled on their eight-finned stubs on -this- Devonian, they got a rather unpleasant surprise.

Heavily armored, predatory Antiarchs had gotten there first. As the 'Stegans quickly found out, the croc-sized, armored, pincer toting Antiarchs made short work of competitors on land. The 'Stegans reverted back to a littoral existence and for the rest of Earth's history, did not get more exciting than evolutionary footnotes.

Triumphant on land, the Antiarchs flourished. They shuffled around at first, and refined their front fins into fully functional limbs over time. Crawling, snake-like beasts were soon replaced with awkward, gangly bipeds.

Some of the bipeds folded their tails underneath for support. In time, the tail turned into a separate limb of its own. Of course by that time, the Antiarchs were as far from their boxy ancestors as lizards would have been from lungfish.

Once again, tripedal dynasties battled each other over eons, refining weapons and strategies that gave them warm blood, terrestrial reproduction, speed and intelligence. The specter of mass extinction hung over them throughout. Several times it struck, sweeping the decks clean and randomizing the survivors' chances as masters of land, or scurriers underneath.

Some tripods took back to the sea, like bony crocodiles with oars at first, smooth, sleek hunters later on.

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The book after man is one of my favorite books on the topic of speculative biology.it looks into how animals from today could evolve in the future after humanity is wiped out

>>2179525
I find the art in that book really wonky.

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Here are some plate featured I the book

I agree but I also like the thought put into it

I wish I could upload pdf's to /an/ so I could share all tomorrows with you guys.

How do you come up with this stuff?

>>2179558
try https://www.file.io/

Just read all tomorrows great book thanks for the suggestion

>>2179496
>Long leaves
>Eats mostly leaves
>Has tusks, short neck and snout used for digging and foraging

I'm triggered.

>>2179941
*Legs

>>2178921
Snaiad time

https://canopy.uc.edu/bbcswebdav/users/gibsonic/Snaiad/snduterus.html

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Anyone remember this?

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>>2179988
I have no memory of this..

What would octopus humanoids look like?

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>>2180061
A furries wet dream.

>>2179988
I found the art of this one to be particularly bad.
Dixon just seems to have problems getting a decent artist.

>>2179988
I read this as a really young kid and the fucked up art still haunts me. I wish I could find it again but I think my family sold it in a garage sale.

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Is being a terrestrial animal a necessity for attaining human-level sapience/technology?

For example, dolphins, an aquatic animal, would probably not be able to develop a written language, nor would they be able to use fire nor create metal. But would being aquatic have any advantages?

>>2179988
I remember how much BS it was full of, yes.

>>2180148
>Is being a terrestrial animal a necessity for attaining human-level sapience
No
>technology
Yes
Thats not even getting into the fact that dolphins are morphologically damned.

>>2180148
There are projects that featured aquatic sophonts developing high levels of biotech through selective breeding and gene manipulation.
It's more plausible than it might seem at first, considering that the stability of deep-ocean environments would be conducive to long-term breeding programs, but it's still not as workable as "fire and smelting"

>>2180351
Dollo's Law a bitch.
just ask birds if they can get back those fingers and toes they gave up to fly.

>>2180148

Dolphins are nearly blind outside of water, he doesn't know wtf he's doing

>>2180355
They might be able to regain them if all terrestrial life went extinct and the land had to be recolonized afterwards.
Assuming the land is still colonizable of course.

>>2180355
>get back those fingers and toes they gave up to fly.
I'm pretty sure birds have toes, anon

>>2178964
>I'd say if land life went kaput then dolphins would be the first back on land instead of fish.
I would have agreed with you if you had said sea lions or even seals. Dolphins have gone too far to turn back now.

>>2180392
>lost toes
>lost ALL toes
see, there's a difference.

>>2180749
They wouldn't have to walk, they could evolve away the dorsal fin and then roll around on land using their flippers.

>>2180749
Why?
It's not like any fish would have an easier time making the transition to land.
In fact it would probably be harder since they'd have to evolve lungs from scratch.

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Posting superior project:

http://s1.zetaboards.com/Conceptual_Evolution/topic/5724950/1/

>>2179988

Sgary

>>2181079

>multituberculates

oh neat

>>2180751
but birds didn't lose any toes for flight

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>>2181051
Mudskippers.

>>2181079
Why do so few projects on this site have any art at all?

>>2181260

Not everyone can afford commissions

>>2181079

Uh, who knew.

>>2181438
Just draw it yourself.

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>>2180355
The Hoatzin says yes.

>>2180148
I think Octopi would be a better bet. Tentacles are a pretty good finger substitute. Written language wouldn't be too hard. Write in sad or scratch into stone or other materials.

If an aquatic species got to space I imagine they'd be shit hot at space faring due to their experience in moving and thinking in 3d.

>>2179528
>>2179525
At least it's not The New Dinosaur. All they did was turn dinos into today's animals.
>>2179988
PLAGIARISM

>>2182031
This.
Even though evolution is /technically/ irreversible, changes to gross physiological traits aren't.

"de-evolving" trait loss by retracing the steps undergone to lose that trait in the first place is mathematically improbable, yes.
However, re-acquiring a trait by inhibiting the processes that cause it to be reduced in development is not only possible, but happens all the goddamned time.

If the right inhibitors were turned off, a bird could "devolve" into something resembling a non-avian dinosaur without "going backwards," evolutionarily speaking.

>>2182252
>All they did was turn dinos into today's animals.
>What is speculative biology

>>2182248
Ignoring all the other technological problems of an underwater civilization for a moment how the hell are you going to get a rocketship filled with water out into space?

>>2182261
Thats not good speculative biology

>>2182031
The Hoatzin doesn't have any more fingers or toes than any other bird.

>>2182255
that's assuming the genes that produce those traits still exist in the animal's genome.

which of course they don't in that example.

>>2182317
It has more useful fingers then any other bird though.

>>2179529
Jeez, this looks really familiar. Is it from this >>2179525 ?

>>2182313
You'd just need spacesuits filled with water

>>2182401
That just makes things worse.

>>2182406
On a more serious note, it wouldn't be too different from a regular space ship launch, just heavier than ours. If water movement and sloshing is a problem, they could freeze or have it split into oxygen and hydrogen then mix when it's needed
I'm not going to pretend to understand the maths behind launching rockets into space, but there doesn't seem to be any major hurdles

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>>2182380
claws on bird wings aren't exactly rare. Ostriches have them. A bunch of other species as well.

and 'useful' is arbitrary.
I could argue that using fingers for flying is more useful than using them to climb.

>>2182421
>just heavier than ours
A lot heavier than ours.
>they could freeze or have it split into oxygen and hydrogen then mix when it's needed
Then how are your astronauts going to be able to live in it?

>>2182451

This.

"Hotazin is spechul because wing claws" is a meme that needs to DYE

>>2182400
Yep

>>2179019
Hmm, I like this idea.

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>>2182921
Yeah me too.
It's not often you see a serious attempt at a tripod that has any sort of logic behind it.

>>2183006
this is far and away the least plausible thing ITT

>>2178921
PHD geneticist here: I am monitoring this thread.

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not quite spec evo but still a great way to show how damn diverse the Ice Age was. Also why does nobody really focus on plants?

>>2183710
Probably because of the mind-boggling diversity of plants that already exist.
It's hard to come up with something nature hasn't already done somewhere at some point.

>>2182979
all tomorrows?

>>2184314
4, 6 and 11 are. The others are from various artists.

>>2182979
I hate this artist for including caucasian style hooded noses on every single fucking concept.
The human nose is a peculiar oddity that is very unlikely to be conserved with drastic body plan alterations.

>>2184331
>caucasion style
It's weird that they all have human noses, but there are several very different styles of noses there. Why call them all caucasion?

>>2184358
caucasian, even.

>>2184358
They all have human noses because they're descended from humans.

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>>2184331
Would you prefer this?

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>>2184425
Or this?

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>>2184427
This one

>>2179941

?

>>2184535
>deviantart is cancerous.jpg

>>2184590
>deviantart
This is from a previous specbio thread

>>2184535
I will say I find the format of the bau plan weird, though without other fauna to work from it might make sense. To me, it always has seemed the forelimbs will be the 'working man's limb' so to speak and will do the heavy lifting/working options whereas the midlimbs will be used for various other activities also, using your tongue is a risky way to get things done if just due to toxicity in a given environment. Still a novel Idea though.

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>>2184535

thats pretty hot

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>>2184750
Wells heres their genitalia then

>>2183841
it's especially hard to figure out extraterrestrial "plants" without it looking like it came from Earth.

>>2184597
>This is from a previous specbio thread
oh for sure man

>>2184930
Half way down the thread faggot
https://desuarchive.org/an/thread/1959853/#q1963147

>>2184924
I mean, perhaps its just the plant guy in me, but minor variances in how the plants develop can be pretty radical for appearance or hell how they photosynthesize even.

>>2178929
I wonder why no insect ever took this approach. They're pretty good at mimicking other creatures.

>>2184994
we see some but, likely because its more efficient to keep on six legs and do bug stuff. Couple that with a lack of internal skeleton and I imagine that its likely terrestrial insects just can't handle that sort of strain.

>>2182248
>Octopi

Kill yourself.

>>2185185
Oh I'm sorry. I meant Octopodes. Is that better? Is that better? Is that better?

>>2185190
Not really; the plural of octopus has been debated many times, but octopuses is commonly used. I think >>2185185
was thinking of that, which is why he called you out

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>>2185162

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>>2184932
I can recognize the posts I made in that thread

Funny I was discussing this type of thing with my cousins rabbi. I'm not Jewish myself at all but my cousin is and after a visit to the Natural History Museum in NYC with me he apparently started doodling possible evolutionary traits for various animals... and his parents got scared and sent him to his rabbi because it looked unholy or something. So he called me in, cause I'm the sane member of the family, to tell the rabbi what it was.

It was a fun talk, if I was still at my cousins place i'd grab his book and scan some of the pictures. He seems to thing that at the expense of proper arm mobility the shoulder blade area could evolve into a plate or even wings under very intense environmental changes. Could that even happen?

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>>2178921

Evolution is fake. Dinos never exsisted, aliens aren't real. Earth is flat :)

>>2185396
Not even /pol/ here but are his parents like hyper orthodox or something?

>>2185489
half of my brain is freaking out over this shit. just goddamn.

>>2183011
did this not already exist? large meat eating river otters.

>>2185396
Post scans, senpai.

>>2185522
Like you wouldn't fucking believe...

>>2185530
Can't they are all the way in NYC, I'm in Mass near the cape. I'll see If i can get him to find a way to scan it and send it my way.

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Found this on the spec evo forum

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Tried to make an alien planet where tardigrade-like creatures ruled. This is their sentient species, an octopedal centaurid.

Any thoughts on a name?

>>2184535
>>2185162
JayRock?

>>2185960
oh bio-lighting sometimes you're not really sensible.

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>>2179019
This is my attempt at drawing a humanoid placoderm skull

>>2186592
Why do placoderms have bone on their eyesockets?

>>2186600
go home khezu, you're drunk

>>2185196
Linguistically speaking, octopodes is the correct plural. Octopus originates from the Greek language, thus octopodes as the plural is only natural. Octopi assumes a Latin root, and octopuses an English one.

That being said, all three variances are acceptable and correct for modern usage. >>2185185 is a raving moron.

>>2187085
how the fuck does that thing swim?

>>2186780

because it was the plesiomorphic condition

>>2178964

> They'd have to crawl out of the ocean first

the ocean is rising anon, they might not have to crawl anywhere at all

just cruise around all our deserted human shit and open all our jars

>>2187203
Do you have any idea how fast human shit degrades underwater?
Just look at the state the titanic is in and thats only been 100 years or so.

Post your face when phages become sentient, reverse engineer horizontal gene transfer from bacteria and turn into the Borg

>>2178931
>Buddy do you have any idea how many bipedal 2 handed species there were before humans came around and how far back they go
And just how many of those bipeds "hands" could manipulate objects.

>>2181079

Ask your hewp

>>2179988
Vastly preferred All Tomorrows

>>2182248
Don't adult Octopi die after reproducing?

>>2187461
Loads.
Hell even bears can manipulate objects with their paws and they're not even bipedal nor do they have opposable thumbs.

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Okay, since this is a speculative biology thread, I've got a question(s)

What would a creature need to survive in the vacuum of space, assuming it could?

>>2187650
Well the main problem I see is that for all life we've observed there's a continual using and discarding of matter, through food or air or such.

So this organism would have to survive in homeostasis within itself, possibly living off of solar rays? Not to mention be able to withstand the extreme cold and pressure differentials; all the liquids in the organism would go out and/or freeze in conventional organisms.

Best I can see happening is a creature surviving space but it can't possibly live in it, it'd have to be in hibernation of sorts. And I think some bacteria and microorganisms can do this but don't remember any off the top of my head.

>>2187650
It would also need systems in place to protect its DNA from degrading from solar radiation unfiltered by an atmosphere.

Try looking up tardigrades. They've survived in space, they're practically unkillable.

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150313-the-toughest-animals-on-earth

>>2187655
>survive in homeostasis within itself
Not all the time.
It could live out in the asteroid bet and jettison from asteroid to asteroid and just go into hibernation for the trip.

>>2185489

NOPE ANTIMATTER IT FROM OUTER GALACTIC ORBIT

>>2185489
Is that a drawing or a model floating in water?
Seems very realistic.

>>2181109
God do Mudskippers weird me out. I once had a dream where I was climbing up some muddy slope and sheep-sized versions of these fuckers kept leaping out of bushes...

>>2185513
An avian-dinosaur version of a sairopod. I like it.

It is possible, but require the circumstance of the niche being available for millions of years in an environment in which sustains it and the traits being advantageous.

>>2189222
>>2188726
>>2188495
Too much of this stuff has rough counterparts on earth. Where's all the outlandish, alien stuff?

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>>2189485
Personal preference but I'm just not fussy on that kind of stuff.

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>>2189485

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Anyone have pictures of the "After Man" exhibit they had back in the 80s? I found a few, but they were for some Islamic creationist site.
Sahte means "false" in Turkish.

>>2189534
Whats this from?

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>>2189835
Greenworld, a two-volume series about the colonization and eventual destruction of an alien world. All the creatures decpicted were, in one form or another, used by humans for humans. Unfortunately, it only exists in Japanese, save for the one English version written by Dougal Dixon himself.

>>2186780
As mammals we're weird for not having bones in our eye sockets. Fish, reptiles, and birds usually have a ring of bones (the sclerotic ring) to support the iris of the eye. Helpful for determining eye size in fossils, but they rarely fossilize due to their fragility.

>>2189892
>>2189953
Is there no scans online?
What a shame.

>>2189953
Too many of these are just silly. More fantasy than Spec-bio would usually allow. Still neat.

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>>2178921

>>2190260
That neck is fucked up

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>>2189953
Also this.

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Didnt knew such thread exist.
Reminds me of
>>>/qst/465398
An evolution quest.
Rulers are just grab a drawing programm and just evolve some animals.

Pic is kinda old, i think they already evolved further.

>>2186592
So is it using it's pectoral fins as an additional jaw, or what?

>>2190274
I remember the documentary version of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5Woe5VgLjc

>>2190119
Yeah they seriously look like RPG enemies.

>>2178922
*sentient

>>2182031
GUYS

>>2187167
it sails

>>2189485
>Too much of this stuff has rough counterparts on earth
this should be expected

>>2190799
Especially if they're just alternate earth timelines.

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Skyjellies are an evolutionary oddity among cnidaria. Their expandable hydrogen sac keeps them afloat to altitudes ranging from near ground all the way up to the stratosphere where air currents disperse them around much of the world. Consisting on a diet of airborne yeasts and bacteria, species from the bioluminescence variety are sometimes mistaken for UFOs at night.

>>2189544
>Turkish Islamist creationist

Let me guess, Harum Yahya?

>>2186511
to be fair, it could be a mating thing. or warning coloration.

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>>2191204
Correct. I don't know where he got them from, but I'm curious.
Also, I found this a while back. Quite a long read from what I've heard, but it's worth it. All kinds of speculative goodies are hidden inside.

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>>2191169

>>2185489
this is scary as fuck, i'm keeping this for the future deep water threads.

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>>2185524
>>2188048
>>2188118
>>2191931
It's a toy. The little silver sticker covers up his glans.

>>2191229
Rainbow Lorikeet?

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>>2178935
>>2178934
>>2178933
>>2178928
>>2178925
I love you chaps so much right now. You need to live on and fill the world with your progeny.

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>>2178921
>>2178923
>>2178927
>>2178935
man evolved to be good at throwing.
Any sapient dinosaur would probably need an anotomy that allows powerful and accurate throwing

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Sheather's stuff is amazing

>>2192337
I assume the implication you're making is that the human way is the only way to do it.
I'd even argue that throwing isn't necessary to intelligence but lets play with all the non-human throwing.
If you happen to be able to fly like a bird then you could just divebomb you prey with spears.
If you have tentacles then you can coil spring your spears.
Besides even if you're not optimally suited to throwing humans have made tools to make throwing easier/better.
Why can't sapient dinosaurs do the same?

>>2192438
>Furry shark with legs
>amazing
What the shit is this garbage?
For one, that bodyplan would be completely useless with BIG-ASS LEGS hanging off of it.

For another, assuming that's supposed to be a mammal, there's a reason why mammals use dorsoventral oscillation ("up-and-down wiggling") instead of lateral oscillation ("side-to-side wiggling") for high-energy locomotion.
For locomotion in a terrestrial context, side-to-side movements compress the lungs and interfere with movements of the diaphragm. Up-and-down movements of the spine, however, actually assist breathing. During the shift to aquatic locomotion, the up-and-down movements in locomotion are preserved (because all the mechanisms for it are already in place and don't compress the lungs, which is important if you're holding your breath).

Basically, this thing triggers the shit out of me and is just bad speculative science.

The hesperornis-possum isn't half bad though.

>>2192603
>assuming that's supposed to be a mammal
It's not.
It's a group of land vertebrates evolved from cartilaginous fish like sharks and manta rays.
Unless it was still very early in their evolution they probably wouldn't retain the tails for long.

>>2192509
>Besides even if you're not optimally suited to throwing humans have made tools to make throwing easier/better.
you would need to survive for a few million years first until you come up with an invetion as complicated as as a bow or a sling

>If you happen to be able to fly like a bird then you could just divebomb you prey with spears.
pretty energy-inefficient

>If you have tentacles then you can coil spring your spears.
then you only use muscles of one tentacle for throwing. human uses the muscles of his whole body when he throws

>>2192633
>It's a group of land vertebrates evolved from cartilaginous fish

I'm really glad I read the artist's DA before replying to this because they're apparently stem-mammal synapsids, and cartilaginous fish evolving limbs and fur when mammals exist is the stupidest fucking thing imaginable.

>>2192268
Why do people have a problem with machismo?

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>>2192643
>you would need to survive for a few million years first until you come up with an invetion as complicated as as a bow or a sling
Not even that complicated.
Just need a stick with a notch in it.
Pic related
>pretty energy-inefficient
You know real life birds do this right?
Just without spears.
>then you only use muscles of one tentacle for throwing
If thats all you need I don't see the problem.

>>2192746
People that have neither strength or intelligence have a hard time excepting that the two aren't mutually exclusive.

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>>2193608

How the fuck can a 600 foot tall biped exist, even on a planet with weak gravity?

>>2194668
Different molecular structure, man. Less density equals a larger being.

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Most underrated aspect of this particular show IMO.

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>>2182317
Genes for claws aren't missing from birds, most can be reactivated by stimulating their expression early in embryonic development.

Same goes for teeth.

Genetic triggers are what determines the loss of a trait, and many can be flipped like a switch by spontaneous mutation. Another example of this involved stick-bugs from a wingless class being discovered having wings again.

Loss of a trait because it isn't necessary for survival in one environment doesn't immediately remove it's resurgence of factors in habitat change.

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This is one of my favs

>>2192337
I saw some piece that speculated on sapient dinosaur hand to hand combat and it revolved around grappling the opponent from behind and thrusting a reverse-gripped knife into their ribcage. I think they based it on dino arm musculature making for a stronger pulling back motion than a forward thrust motion.

>>2194701
Filter feeders?

>>2184331
It's because these evolutions came from third party intervention, not nature.

>>2194701
Isn't that a blue oyster cult album cover

>>2194734
yup, Cultusaurus Erectus if I got the spelling right.

>>2185780
l-lewd

>>2192973
>excepting

>>2194701
Oh shit, Cultösaurus Erectus!

>>2195869
>four legs and wings

okay lol

>>2178921
octopuses and cuttlefish become so intelligent they surpass humans at some point in their evolution, octopus civilization beneath the seas once we're gone essentially.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH50LSrMazQ

>>2192603
> don't compress the lungs, which is important if you're holding your breath

You know that during dives the lungs of marine mammals are actually compressed to avoid nitrogen poisoning right?

>>2195970
>civilization beneath the seas
Not going to happen for loads of reasons.

>>2196018
I could see squid or octopi easily having the starts of a tool using culture, things such as production sites and some sort of basic agricultural tradition isn't that far a stretch even underwater. Hell it wouldn't shock me that there'd even be a transference of historical data through artifacts such as monuments. it'd never get very far past basic use of stone tools don't get me wrong but I can easily picture there being aquatic sophonts with something like landwelling cultures.

I remember as a kid I used to watch this show on Discovery Kids. One episode showed what dinosaurs would look like if they had evolved like humans. It was some creepy alien thing. It was horrific,

>>2196039
Exactly. They already are able to use tools and can solve complex problems. If they were social animals and could pass knowledge to the following generation, they could archive greatness

>>2192603
The side to side shark is kinda weird to have full out shark fins but eh. Crocodiles move that way. Unless there is a description somewhere it doesn't say anything about them being deep divers. Plenty of sharks(if not most) prefer warm shallow waters and its not much of an issue if they dwell near the surface even when/if they migrate.

There is a fine line between realism and fiction. Most artists I see do it for fun, which includes heavily feathered dinos that have the same markings as say, cassowaries or bearded vultures.

Anyone here read the Ratha's Creatures books? It's basically about a sapient tribe of prehistoric cats who herd prehistoric horses and deer. One of them, Ratha, learns how to tame fire (her 'creature' since she thinks it's a living thing).

>>2196059
It's a mammal.

>>2195975
That's compression by water pressure, not uneven compression by lateral movement.
At any rate, lung collapsing is only used by critters that swim at extreme depth, not ones that need to constantly transition from water to land.

What do you guys think of The Future Is Wild? I loved that documentary as a kid. I wish AP still did stuff like that. The dragon documentary was good too (I even own it on dvd) but the mermaid one was severely lacking, though I admit I love their depiction of merpeople.

>>2196084
I thought it was interesting. Especially liked what they did with the octopodes

>>2189502

I don't like weird alien stuff either. I prefer realistic looking, preferably mammilian, animals.

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>>2196137
>I don't like weird alien stuff either
I-its OK, anon. T-there are many o-others who like me exactly how I am

>>2196039
>basic agricultural tradition
Underwater?
Not going to happen.
Herding fish more likely.

>>2196288
what would you call herding and encouraging certain species of fish to thrive so that another species can eat them? I could easily see octopi working reefs or ocean bottoms to encourage the growth of favored mollusk species. Just because they're not growing corn doesnt mean its not agriculture.

>>2194393
sauce?

>>2196516
It's called nomadic herding.
Humans do it too.
It's not the same as farming.

>>2196720
its still a form of husbandry and agriculture one could easily see a similar form of sedentary raising of shellfish or similar prey species. Also, even nomadic herding requires a hell of a brain to do properly and would point towards something like culture. Quit nitpicking and enjoy the idea of octopi herding schools of tuna.

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Had t-rex survived and evolved for the next 65my

>>2185489
>/d/

>>2192746
they are presented as mutually exclusive opposites in most media, and media is what gives most people their worldview
burly jock contrasted with willowy nerd
you can totally be both, just takes more work

>>2196078
I think even pinnipeds use it at some extent. And even if they didn't, they barely need to hold their breath because most of the oxygen they take is stored in hemoglobin or muscle unlike in humans for instance.

>>2197033
What you're thinking of is "myoglobin" and that's pretty much just for padding out long dives. They DEFINITELY need air.

And no, pinnipeds never "side-to-side wiggle" for sustained locomotion like the creature in >>2192438 would need to.

At any rate, the respiratory issues are only secondary to the fact that it would be WAY more efficient for an amphibious mammal to use dorsoventral movements than evolve to use lateral ones. The infrastructure is already there.

what are the odds that a vertebrae could evolve to have more than four functioning limbs (on this planet)?

>>2196726
I wasn't arguing they couldn't become sapient.
Just that forming any sort of civilization underwater isn't going to happen.

>>2197355
You mean vertebrate tetrapods evolving more limbs?
Well considering we have absolutely no examples of this happening but plenty of examples of tetrapods losing limbs I'm going to say it's extraordinarily unlikely bordering on impossible.

>>2197397
I'll give you a technological civilization but should there be a form of animal husbandry, rudimentary tool use and the leaving of artifacts to pass on historical and relevant data, I would argue that's a civilization. It might be as far as they get but still.

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>>2197171
What I meant with the myoglobin and hemoglobin thing is that (while diving) the air on their lungs becomes useless because they have way more oxygen stored in other places and even detrimental as it makes them float (and the nitrogen poisoning).Thus there isn't such problem.

Also I don't think sea sneks, ictiosaurs and mossasaurs had dorsoventral moves and they still did fine.
Otherwise it's true. A mammal reverting to dorsolateral moves would be pretty pointless if not impossible.

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>>2196811

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Domesticated antelope, fyi.

>>2190283
Yup, we're at our 2nd extinction event, we have flying creatures with parasitic plants attatched to their nervous systems, and the current apex predator on land is an omnivorous boulder with a trunk.

>>2194701
Eh, more surreal fantasy, less hard sci-fi. Still a nice album cover.

>>2197961
Oh shit, if I remember this planet has modular animals.

>>2178921
HAWWW, HEEEEY, HOOLLLO, CAWWWW, GRRRR, DERP, HERP, HERPDERP

>>2198864
>>2198876
>>2198878
Neat!

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So this guy lives 50 million years in the future where half of the northern hemisphere is covered in glacial ice. He's [spoiler]150 meters long and 6000 tonnes[/spoiler] and uses his armored, axe-shaped head to ram through the ice to surface for air and ambush prey walking on the ice. Smaller sea mammals and birds depend on him to provide access to the water's surface.

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>>2199761

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>>2199762

>>2199761
>>2199762
>>2199771
What would they use the claws for and how?
I'm thinking mating.

>>2200236
The atrophied rear limbs would probably be retained as mating aides, sure, but the frontal claws might be kept just because they have little to no -negative- impact on the animal's fitness.

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http://speculativeevolution.wikia.com/wiki/Zarander

>>2200501
so an okapi and an elephant fuse and you call that evolution

>>2200537
It evolved from pigs

>>2192603

Actually it's a highly derived cynodont, not a shark.

>>2183055
Not really we got praying mantises that have flower appendages and colour

Or do you mean a mammal couldn't ever evolved this

>>2185489
I can actually feel myself going mad staring at this shit

Is this real?

The appendages seem like tentacles with extra muscle mass they are toned and well defined which is creepy

>>2187261
We only need 5 years fleshba- I mean anon

>>2200759
1. That's a bird.
2. That Anon knows that the creature does not look like a bird that had adapted a flower like mouth. It looks like a flower has fused with it's mouth thus making it seem more mythical and too fantastic for a Spec Evo thread.
>>2200760
It's the body-hugger toy from Prometheus, hell you can clearly see the holes in the appendages that most wire bending toys have.

You people are dense.

>>2185235
Protip: Any version of the cancerous image you posted or that stupid anime slut holding her face and drooling prove 100% that the poster has a double-digit IQ. FACT.

>>2183710
>Only labels sporadically
What a faggot.

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The designation of skyward as "up" and groundward as "down" seems arbitrary. Are there any real animals or speculative creatures, where the perception of up and down is reversed?

Gif as example.

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Considering chicken is a common food source to virtually all humans around the globe and can survive well on their own off what is on the ground, they seem to almost certainly survive and diversify if humans went extinct.

>>2201146
>gravity is a social construct

>>2201234
What about dogs and domestic cats? They too can be found with humans globally due to being the most common pets and ones that can be useful.

>>2201348
I can't imagine them changing much, considering they are already developmentally secured for surviving in their expected niches; cats hunting small prey and dogs eating whatever they can depending on their size and numbers.

But there could be more extreme developments over time, depending on the environment.

>>2201234
All domesticated cattle will die off as soon as humans are not there to protect them from predators and feed them. Pigs and certain archaic breeds might have a shot, but domestic chickens are going to be genocided by the first couple of foxes and martens on day one.

>>2201883
Aren't North American boars really just feral Spanish pigs that reverted traits like shaggy fur/hair?

>>2201352
I like the one program's idea on History Channel. The one about cats living in rundown skyscrapers and developing a gliding squirrel like schute.

>>2201883
M8 there exists wild chickens all over the world and they're doing just fine.
Don't know of any wild cattle populations though.

new thread >>2202779

>>2202775
Wild fowl is pretty different from the domesticated ones. And none of them turned into a cassowary with shopped rooster head and tail.

>>2202851
I talking about wild chickens directly descended from domesticated chickens.
Theres tons of different lineages of these un-domesticated chickens around the world.