So now that the dust has settled...

>>2175018
>veganism is a cult
>crafts argument for why nonveganism is a cult

>People using evolution as an argument against vegans
>By those standards we shoudnt have houses or cars, and we should run to get everywhere
Before you get all buthurt on me let me say that indeed meat might be important (not irrepleceable with the right diet) but I hate both types of people, the ones who think they are better because they like meat and the ones that think they are better because they don't.

>Why are humans any different?
Because we have the sentience and intelligence to make that choice for ourselves. Cats do not have a choice in that.

I'm not vegan or even vegetarian, but there is a huge difference between a cat eating a vegan diet and a human eating a vegan diet, and it's not really a brilliant comparison to make. Cats are obligate carnivores with a very specialised digestive tract, humans are unusually versatile omnivores that eat some extremely varied diets across the vast range of environments that we've inhabited. Trying to narrow down the one perfect diet that people are meant to eat is useless, and while your veggies, fruits, cereals, eggs and meat diet sounds fine, it's not universal by any means.

>>2175037
>>2175038
Vegan cucks BTFO
>>2175020

>>2175038
>cats not sentient
I get brought two mice a week as a reward for feeding a cat. To state that cats don't understand risk, reward and thanks is naive.

>>2175044
Don't they do this because they think you can't hunt on your own?

>>2175043
Not sure how my comment "BTFO'd" Vegans. It was an explanation as to why humans can be vegan but animals shouldn't. If anything it sort of underpins the entire OP's argument.

>>2175018
>>>/ck/

>>2175054
Hello r.eddit!!!

Science says something like a 80 percent plant based, 20 percent animal based, diet is the way to go. Also diary is absolutely bad for your digestive track, whatever you are lactose tolerant or not.

See the book "How not to die" and "the food hourglass".

Were you homeschooled or something? Cats, dogs and humans have different nutritional requirements.

>>2175070
>Science says
Science doesn't say anything definitive about diet yet except "too much of X does Y and not enough A does B." Nutritional standards change by the fucking month and we still aren't even close to understanding the role of gut flora in metabolizing what we eat.

Regarding veganism it simply isn't a sustainable model due to the only vegan source of B12 being expensive to farm and scaling poorly. The world could not sustain a vegan human population.

>>2175044
>>2175051
Its just an instinct to bring a hunt to their safe place. You are severely anthropomorphizing you stupid cunt.

>>2175123
Science doesn't say too much about diet because the studies are funded by the same companies that produce food...

>>2175128
This

>>2175132
>science that doesn't agree with me is funded by the industries that profit from the opposing view.

Science in the US is funded by taxpayers for the most part.

the only science done by food companies is about the safety of a single product they produce, not diets in general.

>>2175128
>>2175133
>>2175051
>>2175044
Cats are absolutely sentient. All mammals are. That's not a question.

The term you are looking for is sapient, as in capable of explicit reason.

Only us, chimps, dolphins, and MAYBE a few subspecies of ape are sapient.

Also crows.

>>2175132
>>2175136
Anon is right, most nutrition studies are funded by the government and carried out by public universities.

They're constantly overturning their findings because we still really know very little about nutrition.

I will grant that sugar studies and corn studies tend to be privately funded bullshit.

I've been trolling vegan facebook groups for a while now, it certainly is a cult.

if you don't anthropomorphise animals you're not a vegan in pretty much all of the groups I've cleared.

>>2175137
>All mammals are. That's not a question.
there's no evidence suggesting cats are sentient.

sentience requires consciousness, it's essentially the same as sapience.

cats aren't conscious, they're biological automatons.

and no not crows, only magpies pass the tests for it.

>>2175146
>there's no evidence suggesting cats are sentient.
wat
>sentience requires consciousness, it's essentially the same as sapience.
No, one thing being a prerequisite for another does not make them the same thing.

>cats aren't conscious, they're biological automatons.
You went full retard

>>2175137
oh hey it's that anon that doesn't know what sapience and sentience are.

you've been here a long time, dude.

>>2175149
>No
you should check the definition of what sentience is.

you can't 'feel' without being conscious.

end your miserable existence.

>>2175168
>>2175163
"Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively. Eighteenth-century philosophers used the concept to distinguish the ability to think (reason) from the ability to feel (sentience)."

You are effectively arguing that cats do not experience qualia. This is retarded. You are retarded.

>>2175179
I notice you didn't use a dictionary definition, rather spent 15 minutes finding a quote that you think agrees with your wrong view.

are you Ausfag? why'd you drop the name?

>>2175179
try an actual dictionary not a blog next time.

People using morality as an argument trigger me.

If people choose to go vegan that's fine. Generally people eat waaaay too much meat anyway. Meat should be treated like the delicacy that it is, not to be munched day and night.

Anyway, at some point we'll be able to "grow" meat, thus changing the whole meat industry for the better.

>>2175018

>Our brains and cells require meat and animal based products to function normally.

Source?

I've been vegetarian for about the past 20 years, and my brain and body seem to be functioning relatively well.

>>2175198

>People using morality as an argument trigger me.

Why is that the case? Are you a moral nihilist?

I ask these questions with all due respect. I hope I am not, as it were, triggering you.

>>2175204
>my brain and body seem to be functioning relatively well.
is that why you're shitposting on /an/?

>>2175040
This
It's been theorized several times already that despite us being generally omnivorous, early hominids diets varied wildly. Some were fruit heavy, some based in fishing, and of course those based in meat.
That aside I think a balanced diet should consist of fruits, meats, and vegetables, but I personally don't give a shit how someone else is getting their daily intake as long as they're doing it properly and not saying outright lies

>>2175204
I believe what they may vaguely be referring to is the idea that learning to cook meat and consume it properly allowed for an increase in average brain development and usage among early humans

>>2175146
wew lad

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>>2175215
here's the dairy intake worldwide.

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>>2175223
here's iq.

>>2175223
>>2175224
I understand what you're going for here but IQ as a measurement of intelligence is a flawed concept in most contexts

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Meat is part of a healthy and balanced diet, but the way it's presetend today is pure bullshit. How could you consider meat like any other consummable when it's still something that used to be alive. How could this shit even be healthy ?

You just can't find an equelibrium between some sort of respect toward nature or any hippie bullshit like that and have THAT MUCH fresh meat everywhere, all the time. It's lost all its sense.

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>>2175224
Corelation =/= causation

There are so many other variables you omited, such as historical and geographical context, societal, etc

You could just boil it down to "first world appears to be smarter than third world", and I believe that milk is but a tiny part of the explanation

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>>2175205
Well I guess I'm a nihilist but I still have strong morals and appreciate life in all it's forms more than most people. From bacteria to to the blue wale. I don't believe life has any other purpose other than the continuation of life itself, which is what makes it so interesting for me. Death on earth isn't really death on the grand scale of life. A rabbit dies so the wolf can live, a tree dies and rots allowing thousands of insects and larvae to breed and multiply, etc. I'm often getting called a hippie for being so into the cycle of life and death.

I'm more worried about the balance of things. We as humans are on top of the food chain. While there is nothing wrong with being on top I believe it brings a certain responsibility (cliché, i know) that we treat the rest of the food chain with some sort of respect. Killing animals in humane ways, and not irreversibly offsetting the balance of nature.

dunno if this answers your question

>>2175228
IQ isn't flawed, actual intelligence is.
>>2175236
don't get too jealous of our lactose tolerance.

>>2175236
Milk is mostly a cultural habit in the Nordic countries, and we're highly educated.

>Our brains and cells require meat and animal based products to function normally.
nope
> Meat is directly responsible for our increased brain size
nope
>the dawn of Human evolution
not a thing

>>2175256
But it tastes pretty fuckin good, eh?

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>>2175256
have fun living on a vegan diet without pills.

Question:
Do anti-meaters also oppose fish meat? You know, the type of meat we should eat more than mammal meat?

>>2175262
Generally yeah, which I understand less because of the difference in understanding pain.
>>2175256
No one said anything about increasing brain size

>>2175262
the oceans are being fished unsustainably, so I don't eat fish (except for the occasional bit of wild salmon, but that's more because it's a cultural thing around here). morally I don't mind eating fish because in the words of kurt cobain, it's okay to eat fish cuz they don't have any feelings.

>>2175123
Advances have been made... This implying that we know nuthin only serves the food industry.

In the extreme, logic like yours goes like this:
>hmmm there seems to be no consensus on the science of nutrition
>must mean nutrition is wrong and I can eat my burgers, soda and fries without getting cancer

>>2175146
Your idiocy never ceases to amaze me. Ga weg.

>>2175279
>it's okay to eat fish cuz they don't have any feelings.
the same can be said for cows, pigs, sheep, chickens, deer, elk, and pretty much anything else people eat.

also dead things don't have feelings so your complaint doesn't work on any level.

>>2175329
A tree lacks feelings.

A rock lacks feelings.

A cow lacks self-awareness and reason.

I fucking love my steak, but I recognize that there is a difference. My meal felt pain and I'm ok with that.

I'm tired of having idiots with zero notions in ethology to spout bullshit about how animals don't have feelings or any form of self awareness. They do. The mere fact that most of our cattle live as a pack with some sort of hierarchy imply the existence of a certain self awareness due to the knowledge of who's dominated/dominate.


Even just basic survival instincts imply some kind of self awareness. Get ur factd str8 fellas. What they lack is the ability to reason and theorize what's happening to them, but they sure as fuck feel the pain and misery we inflinct upon them.

>>2175588
No, self awareness is a specific set of skills that cows lack. Self preservation is instinct amd does not require self awareness.

>>2175198
No we won't

Yeah it might be possible to trick cells into a steak shape but the whole animal itself already allocates the fat and protein into a functional mechanical body complete with bones, this is all good for texture and flavor

>>2175223
Milk really isn't a factor in the race debate

China is on the low side of dairy yet they're the highest in IQ while the Nordics have high dairy and still maintain a high IQ and Africa is just shit across the board

>>2175229
Like how I eat bananas

Bananas rot and die, trust me, I've had my days with bad bananas

Meat is basically using animals as the next step in processing, we feed them grains or grass and protein, they have systems that make much more protein and fat than the grains we gave them

That fat and protein is very filling and tasty

>>2175279
I was gonna call you out on the sustainable meme but they're making great progress on that

well HERE at least, you can't blame Asia for it, they need to eat SOMETHING

>>2177152
>sustainable meme
not everything is a meme friendo.

I can't believe you guys are talking about IQ on here. IQ is not a very good indicator of intelligence you turbotards.

asia is a whole continent

>>2175018
Would you change your mind if you met someone that has been living off plants for several decades with no notable health deficiency?

Humans aren't omnivores or carnivores. This is shown in our physiology. The length of or intestines relative to our torso. The shape of our teeth (our canines are for hard fruits, like apples and other herbivores have them too such as panda bears and gorillas), our nails, etc. Also, put a baby in a crib with an apple and aa live rabbit. If they eat the rabbit and play wwith the apple hmu. But they won't because we have no omnivorus instincts.

>>2177299
>Human aren't omnivores
We can eat meat and we can eat veg, so I'd say you're a fucking retard m8

We physically can but it does not mean we should. Just like we physically can murder someone, but you probably should't do that either. I'm simply trying to say that our bodies aren't designed to eat the flesh from dead animals, chicken periods or cow tittie juice. Talk about gross.

>>2177500
>our bodies aren't designed to eat the flesh from dead animals
I don't know.
it seems like if we were meant to eat plants we'd be able to actually digest them. You know, like digesting cellulose.

also there's the fact that humans can't survive on just plants without agriculture, meaning we ate meat during essentially our entire evolution.

I think it's worth pointing out that we can't digest raw meat without getting sick. And by plants I mean fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, actual foods that come from plant sources. When is the last time you went out on your own without any tools and chased down an animal? Then devoured it to the bone, fur, anus, inner organs, brain- like a true omnivore. Or carnivore...

>>2177512
very few animals can digest cellulose.

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>>2175018
Au contraire, my sweet summer child. The dust has settled on all anti-vegan arguments and the victory response can be summed up thusly. Humans are the only species capable of using science to create a diet for themselves which is both nutritionally complete AND vegan. If you choose to be a carnist in spite of your capability to be vegan, then YOU sir , are the mindless cultee.

ps. vegan burritos blow carnist burritos out of the water. even my cat likes 'em :3

>>2177563
Why do you feel the need to kill plants? What a fucking bigot, if you really cared about living things you'd fill your dietary requirements from natural mineral deposits and human waste byproducts.

You kill more plants when you eat animals. They eat plant foods too. Also, plants aren't sentient. They don't feel anything and they aren't conscious. Think about it, people in hospitals who are brain dead are called.... vegetables.

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>>2177575
*doing her best David Attenborough impression*
And here, amongst civilized debate, we have the carnist. At a lack of ideas to form a valid reply to the vegan, note how he defensively resorts to using sarcastic ridicule and profanity, reminiscent of the type of speech often heard on elementary school playgrounds.
*ahem*

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>>2177642
>pointing out to everyone you're a female
kek
>instead of justifying selfishly killing organisms, goes on an unfunny vegan tirade in the voice of a man who is openly a meat-eater and justifies it with logic and nature
This wonderful chap would cook vegan queers like you in a pot, seasoned with veggies and tumblr tears just like the ol' Papuan tribes taught him

Nah, Veganism is the new Communism. Let's unemploy half the world and force totalitarianism guys! Harassing people on a minute-wise basis while showing them biased info like it came from Karl Marx, putting up stickers on public property while not caring how much they litter and being completely incapable of even considering they might be wrong.

Thankfully I found a solution, you just tell them to fuck off.

I ccould be reading this wrong but it seems like you might be condoning cannibalism. There is most likely another board for that, kindly take yourself over there. Thanks.

>>2177690

Ah yes...individuals who make a living slitting the throats of animals will be out of the job. Serial killer must need at least a bachelors right?

Also, according to your logic vegan food is magical and just appears on peoples plates in front of them.

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>>2177696
If vegans insist on all animals being equal in life value, then I wouldn't be at all surprised if, in a hypothetical post-apocalyptic scenario, people actually took you all up on that proposal and added you to their diet

Well. In a *hypothetical * post apocalyptic scenario, food that you can grow in your back yard is going to be more sustainable.

>>2177777
"Post apocalyptic"
They're already putting bleach in the water to kill any notion of self sustenance like growing plants. Good luck.

Anyone have dead plants from garden hose watering this year? I'm curious.

>>2177777
I'll ignore the suggestion that you'll be able to survive on a vegan diet in desperate times. What do you currently grow in your backyard? (Also learn how to reply newfag)

This ones for all of you shit heads. Why in the fuck are you using hypothetical simulations in an attempt to justify yourself? Have you got nothing else to go on?

Come out of fantasy land for a minute. You literally eat the dismembered corpses of animals. You eat chicken periods and you drink cows breast milk. Which has puss in it. Well, the dairy industry calls it by it's scientific name. Somatic cell count, look it up I encourage it.
And vegans are weird because we eat plant based foods?

Mindlessly shoving it in your face isn't going to help you at all. Because as pointed out above, the human body isn't designed for an omnivorous diet. There's no biast information, that's just comparing our physical traits to other animals.

>>2177836
You mean like our closest relatives the chimps and bonobos never eat meat?

>>2177836
>the human body isn't designed for an omnivorous diet
Confirmed shitposter, move along boys

>>2177843
My jaw dropped when I read that line but then I checked the URL in my browser and was like "oh."

>>2177836
>that's just comparing our physical traits to other animals.
like our inability to digest cellulose, which is found in virtually every plant on earth?

Allow me to elaborate. For all of you. Even though it's already been said.

1) Our teeth are broad and flat. Our canines are blunted and for hard fruits. Other herbivores have them. Examples include gorillas, hippos and pandas.
2) Our nails. Omnivores and carnivores have claws. Obviously.
3) Our mouth moves in a grinding motion when we chew. Omnivores and carnivores mouths can only snap open and shut, rip and swallow.
4) Our saliva has carbohydrate digesting enzymes that are exclusive to herbivores.
5) The length of our small intestine is 10-11x our body leingth. On par with other herbivores. Carnivores and omnivores have a shorter small intestine (3-6x our body length) so that they can quickly digest decaying flesh. That's why it's impossible for any real carnivore and omnivore to gain weight or health issues from their diet.

>>2177881
the problem is that adaptations to herbivory don't exclude omnivory.

we clearly aren't carnivores, but that doesn't mean we can't eat meat or didn't evolve to eat it.

also number 4 is misleading since carnivores have those same enzymes in the gut rather than just the saliva.

>>2177881
>>2177884
and for additional examples- dogs, bears, and pigs all produce salivary amylase, and all are clearly capable of eating meat.

>>2177881
>5) The length of our small intestine is 10-11x our body leingth. On par with other herbivores
you should also probably be aware that in other animals body length is measured from the nose to the asshole.

in humans it's a different measurement. At least according to vegan propaganda.

>>2177886
Well dogs and bears are omnivores. Not sure about pigs though, is that accurate? Or do you mean boars?

>>2177890
>>2177890
>Or do you mean boars?
both.

actually true of wolves too, iirc. Domestic dogs have far more genes expressing salivary amylase than wolves, but that doesn't mean wolves lack them entirely.

afaik both wild and domestic pigs express salivary amylase. I'm not sure if one has more than the other though it wouldn't be surprising.

>Well dogs and bears are omnivores
yes, that's my point.
humans are omnivores based on that list, not herbivores. Probably with a strong background eating fruits and nuts.

>>2177889

I figured it was more to do with proportion

>>2177896
>Probably with a strong background eating nuts.
Speak for yourself, gaylord.

Side note, no one has mentioned anything against animals not getting health problems from their meat diet. Surely because rhey are better adapted? I've never seen a fat wolf or lion. Only fat humans and house pets raised by humans. Could be worth noting.

>>2177908
Wolves and lions don't get to shitpost on 4chan all day long with their only exercise being a quick fap between shitposts.

>>2177902
it is a proportion.

I'm saying in most tetrapods body length doesn't count the legs or feet.

so when someone compares body length between an elephant and a basketball player they need to be very clear on whether or not they're confusing length with height.

>>2177908
Are you suggesting humans must be natural herbivores because we're suddenly the only thing that can get fat? And it has nothing to do with modern sedentary lifestyles and highly-processed diets and overeating? And how come so many vegetarians and vegans are landwhales, surely that alone breaks down your weird theory?

>>2177908
animals in the wild live about half as long as captive ones.

presumably diet has a lot to do with their early death. Usually because of a lack of food though, not because of an excess.

most wild animals are starving, not overeating.

Moving on from the USA's obesity crisis. Has anyone here seen footage from a slaughter house? They are pretty graphic. Id recommend Farm to Fridge, or maybe Earthlings. If you fight vegans and to a degree vegetarians you say it's okay. Bottom line is I think it's not okay.

>>2177931
I've been in one.
Was brutal, but efficient. The stress of transport and being packed in a tiny area was way worse on the animals than the actual slaughter.

>>2177931
>USA
See, this is the thing with you vegans. Not only are you dodging all questions and discussion not served directly by you, but you can't even think of things on a large scale - for a start you're not even aware obesity is now a worldwide issue. It's pretty indicative that veganism is a recent trend for the incredibly sheltered, who have little awareness of the needs and lives of anyone outside their direct surroundings. Try going to Argentina and telling them to put down their steaks, or tell Madagascans they can't hunt lemurs anymore but must live off of imported expensive meat substitutes which they have no understanding of. Whilst there are clearly noble intentions from many involved in your movement, it's simply delusional. I hope you get out into the world and meet actual people who don't rely on virtue signalling with fad diets and sociopolitical labels.

>>2175018
Vegans obviously hate humanity and civilization and crave nothing more than to go back a couple steps in the evolutionary chain living in huts and raping each other before dieing at 30

>>2177836
>Killing animals is wrong
>Killing 5 month old baby's is ok
Vegan logic everyone

>>2177836
Your momma puss puss is nasty as all hell, it has puss, it smells like rotting fish and I don't want to know what kind of nasty shit has been inside
But when it's late night and your dad is drunk enough it still makes a fine dining experience.
We aren't wired out by you eating vegetables, we are grossed by the artificial shit that would put doctor Frankenstein to shame with more ingredients than colours on a Ness you shove in your mouth on a regular basis.
I'm pretty sure plutonium is more healthy for me than fake fake c vegan cheese and I'm sure as hell not supposed to eat that

>>2178038
I'm vegan and I've never had vegan cheese.

>>2177836
Primarily, SCC is composed of leukocytes, or white blood cells, that are produced by the cow's immune system to fight an inflammation in the mammary gland, or mastitis.
Big deal.

>>2178039
I guess even if it has the name of something that's not vegan it's evil enough for you to pass huh?

>>2178042
no, it just sounds gross.

>>2178039
So what do you personally eat?

>>2178181
uh. real food? I don't buy weird "cheese" and "meat". I eat a lot of homemade thai food, curries, and stews.

you don't really think that every vegan lives off bocca burgers and $8 fake cheeses right?

>>2178038
Are you really saying that your diet is 100% chemical free? That there are no processed animal based foods? Uhm, McDonalds?? Twinkies? Most ingredients in twinkies aren't really considered food...they ain't vegan buddy, and like fake cheese not every meat eater eats or even likes them.

>>2178397
I assume you grow all the veggies and spices in your backyard then? You wouldn't support destructive agricultural practices, huge volumes of emissions from air cargo, the pesticide industry and industrial-scale habitat destruction for crops, would you?

>>2178564
>'owning' land
>ethical

that's not his back yard. It belongs to all living citizens of gaia. Anything that grows there is to be shared for the benefit of all living creatures. But not killed. He may share and partake only of the parts of things that fall dead of their own accord.

>>2178579
But only after crows, ants, caterpillars etc. have had their fill, because all animals on this planet are equal. Can't go using that human privilege to steal shared supplies.

>>2178586
this person gets it. no more of that selfish anthropocentrism. If you can't survive on soil, fingernail clippings, and dead leaves you don't deserve to live.

>>2178518
compared to yours? yes, your average snack would put breaking bad to shame

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Reminder that is ok if it's free

>>2178564
what are you talking about? I didn't mention agriculture or pesticides in any of my posts. why are you so offended that I don't eat weird, expensive substitutes for meat and cheese?

>>2178729
haha, I actually follow that rule.

>>2178736
>It's not a cult no sir

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>>2178738
Forgot pic

>>2178740
that's an awful, negative thing and they should be ashamed of themselves.

anyways plz stahp. you aren't even attacking me, you're just attacking this caricature of a vegan that lives in your head.

>>2178743
You where init weren't you?

>>2175018
Listen man, i'm going to be blunt with you on veganism. I don't fucking care what you eat, and it's retarded that anyone else does. You could sit in your basement and eat a sack of raw potatoes for all i fucking care. The fact that anyone cares about the fact some people don't like to eat meat boggles my fucking mind. If someone wants to eat a [spoiler]disgusting[/spoiler]tomato instead of some beef jerky that's their decision.

Is it good to eat only fruit and vegetables? I don't know, and i bet you could find studies and papers that say it's good and that it's bad.

>But they are annoying and constantly say they are a vegan!

No shit. They are a vegan, it would be awkward as fuck to go to a restaurant or a friends house to sit down to eat, only to see you can't eat 3/4ths of the meal. Do they mention it too much? Yeah, kind of. But to be fair people are retarded and have to be reminded of the simplest shit.

But that's the fun thing about humans. We can basically do whatever we want. Want to only eat meat and be a body builder? Go for it. You want to do nothing but eat eggplant and become morbidly obese? Have fun. Want to learn how to draw? Go for it. Want to write a book? Easier than ever. Want to become a millionaire? Eh... you can try.

Is Veganism a cult? Not really. More like a choice that someone made for some reason or another. Maybe they wanted to see if it was possible to actually be a vegan, or maybe they are doing it out of some soft of [spoiler]ineffective[/spoiler] protest against farms.

Human's are pretty resilient, and we can survive off of some awful garbage. And last time i checked vegetables and fruit are good for you, so the bar is already in their favor. People have been doing this shit for ages, and have basically mastered how to combine stuff together so it can keep them healthy.


This is probably shoddy as fuck and makes no sense, but i felt like venting.

>>2178753
Lost of vegans have unhealthy as fuck dietbecause hetehere is the little secret they don't want you to realize. Those great dithrythey eat? You can eat them too with the added benefit of also eating meat.
Veganism isnt an alternative it's self sabotage and i personally choose not to take them seriously

>>2178770
you seem mentally unwell.

>>2175018

Stop hate-baiting.

There is nothing cult-like about not eating meat or animal products.

Religions are a cult. But not because they drink wine on Sundays. That's not what makes them a cult. It's the other creepy stuff. If you take away the wine, they're still creepy. If you let vegans eat meat, all the sudden they're pretty much normal. So not a cult.

>>2178773
What, because anon cares about the physical well-being of others? Come on.
>>2178736
Because vegans seem to consider themselves pillars of morality, and the whole movement is about causing less pain to animals and the environment isn't it? Well if you buy commercially-grown crops you're a complete hypocrite and you're fucking up the planet only a fraction less than meat-eaters. And I never mentioned meat/cheese substitutes, but if they use soya they're still terrible for the environment anyway. So I hope you grow all of your food yourself, or you're simply as bad as everyone else.

Vegans are perfectly aware that as long as you are alive you have a carbon footprint. There's no debate in that.

Veganism is about causing the least amount of damage you can to the environment (for some people, not all vegans are the hippy type.)

Some people do it for ethics, some for health, some for all of the above.

Vegans aren't ALL about shoving veganism down peoples throats. Many celebrities are or have been involved with veganism. I say this not to be like "oh celebrities are vegan you should be too" I say it to help sterilize stereotypes. Ellen DeGeneres? Vegan. Tobey Maguire, vegan. Jenifer Lopez, is vegan. Jay-Z and Beyoncé apparently went plant based for a duration.

So nah, not ALL vegans are like Freelee the Banana girl or Sorsha Morava. That's unfair.

>>2177910
t. bearwolf

>>2178993
However it isn't healthier being on a vegan diet (especially if you're not rich or don't use supplements), and it simply shifts the damage caused by the meat industry into even more agricultural damage. It DOESN'T help your body, it DOESN'T help the environment, it certainly doesn't help animals, so why bother? (and celebrity examples are absurd and unrelatable, multi-millionaires can source their food from anywhere regardless of cost)

>>2179009
Your argument doesn't make sense at all

>>2179009

It is healthier. Growing crops takes less resources than growing and feeding billions of animals, who btw ALSO EAT CROP FOODS.

According to the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), the runoff from factory farms pollutes our rivers and lakes more than all other industries combined. In the U.S. alone, animals raised for food produce 130 times more excrement than the entire human population—86,000 pounds per second. A typical pig factory farm generates as much raw waste as a city of 50,000 people. Chicken, pig, and cow excrement have polluted over 35,000 miles of rivers in at least 22 states and contaminated groundwater in at least 17 states. I could go on.

>>2175018
That's because cats are hypercarnivores so of course you can't feed them a vegan diet

Plenty of vegans are fucking crazy and act like the meat industry is the same as lynching black people or the Holocaust or act like people who eat meat are the scum of the Earth who can't possibly care about animals, but there's nothing wrong with not eating animal products in itself

>>2177295
no because i don't feel like sustaining myself on pills

>>2177525
that's because of the widespreading of cooked meats lead to the immunities we developed not being prominent anymore

>>2178974
no, because they seem unable to make a coherent sentence. not even talking about their argument.
>>2178974
I feel good if I am doing a fraction less harm. I'll continue to try and amend my diet and my lifestyle to do another fraction less.

soy is nitrogen fixing, btw. this makes it a very useful crop. growing crops takes far less resources than raising animals. the agricultural industry is still very wasteful but the technology is there for far more efficient farms.

A point about vegans and supplements?

The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition reports that 39% of Americans have low levels of B12. If only 1% of Americans are vegan, how can a B12 deficiency be a vegan issue?

First, health cannot be found in a bottle. It doesn't come in pill form. And it certainly isn't found in steaks, fish tacos, grilled cheese sandwiches, bacon omelets and glasses of milk. Diseases arise from the consumption of animal protein, casein, sugar, the excessive amount of fat found in all animal products and oils, artificial additives, the 2-9 percent of naturally-occurring trans-fatty acids found in meat and dairy, human-made trans fatty acids found in junk food, and an excessive amount of refined carbohydrates found in white rice, white bread, and pasta. Non-dietary factors affect health, too. Stress, a lack of sleep, smoking tobacco, chemical pollution, and a lack of exercise can wreak havoc on the body.

>>2179299
You made me hungry anon, I'm going to make a salad with bacon and chicken now