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Herding breeds nipping

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sup /an/,

Anyone got any tips on a first time owner of a herding breed? Border collies, cattle dogs etc. I have an 8 week old kelpie pup, grew up with labradors and it's been very different so far.

My main issue is nipping, especially at heels, hands and at clothing. I've been redirecting her to a toy (ball, tug toy, kong) but it doesn't always work especially when she is hyper. When she bites me I yell out "OW" really loudly and she stops about half of the time.

I have never used physical discipline on any of my dogs, but I need to establish I'm the boss before she gets bigger. Any tips that don't involve hurting her?
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Usually in the rare cases where my dogs have bitten me, all I had to do to make them stop was give them a savage beating.
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You're already doing what you should be, but there's a few more things you can do to get her to stop:

When she nips you and you say "OW"/yelp, you should also make it clear that playtime/interaction stops when she does this.

This means that if you're playing and she gets nippy, you yelp and then leave the room and ignore her completely for a moment. It doesn't take long for them to realize that if they want playtime and attention, they can't bite.

Alternatively, she's all hyper and you are walking through the house and she's chasing after your heels and nipping at you: do the yelp/"OW" thing, then just stand still until she moves on. A moving target is fun and interesting and that's what compels her to chase and nip. If you stop moving and stand motionless and boring (again, ignoring her) it's not fun anymore. She'll eventually figure this out.

Just continue doing what you're doing, implement the above tips, and be consistent. I know it can be kind of a pain in the ass dealing with nippy puppies but she'll figure it out and grow out of her nippy stage.

Good luck with your puppy! I love herding breeds.
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Scruff them severely, force them onto their back, spray them with the smelly shit, and then put them outside

Stuff like that

You're talking about a breed that's literally been bred for hundreds of years to specifically herd livestock, which involves nipping and biting them to get in line, so good luck lol

I have one and my only problem is that he's inexhaustible, fucking thing can run for 3 hours straight a day and not be tired, so he gets really whiny about going outside even after the point a normal dog would be dead tired
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>>2020350
This literally does nothing

SJW tier advice
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>>2020350
Oh and also this doesn't address the dog nipping other dogs or other people
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>>2020351
yeah I get the sheep thing but I've met plenty of adult city kelpies and cattle dogs who don't bite people.

>I have one and my only problem is that he's inexhaustible, fucking thing can run for 3 hours straight a day
How did you go about getting him trained to walk off the lead? All my other dogs settled into it fine it but I'm afraid she's got so much energy she'll bolt on me.

>>2020350
Cheers that was the advice I got from my mate with a ACD. She sleeps most of the day but goes into turbo mode and nothing seems to get through.

>>2020353
I haven't introduced her to any other dogs yet because she's on her first shots. She's going to meet my brothers retarded puppy over christmas. Is puppy pre school actually good for socialisation? We never did it for any of my other dogs but they were definitely a lot chiller even as puppies
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>>2020359
Idk lol I'm no pro at dog training

I could never get the training down to make them chill next to me off leash while walking

Mine doesn't nip at all, but my neighbors red heeler does it to everything (their other heeler doesn't), sometimes there's nothing you can do

100% socialize it, it helps
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>>2020360
I don't mind if she fucks off, just as long as she comes back. A friend had a pair of brother and sister Kelpie Xs who used to round up swallows at the park. Fastest dogs I've ever seen, they didn't listen if you called them but they came back if you pretended you were leaving. One of them still nips (14 years old) but super gently out of affection.

anyway thanks man
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>>2020366
No problem

Post pics of pooch when you get a chance :3
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>>2020352
>>2020353
Nope, sorry. I've had herding breeds nearly my entire life and this is always effective (some puppies take a little longer to learn than others, but you just have to be patient.)

Bottom line is you don't reinforce them for the behavior. If it's not rewarding, they learn to stop doing it. That's literally just a fundamental concept of how you train any animal.

As for biting other people/dogs: Other people who will interact with the puppy should be instructed on how to handle it in the same way.

The puppy will learn not to bite other dogs when the other dogs show them it's not appreciated. Pups learn bite inhibition through interaction with mother and siblings, and other dogs while growing up.

>>2020351
Please do not do this, OP. There's no reason to abuse your dog just because she's being a normal puppy.

>>2020359
>goes into turbo mode and nothing seems to get through
Yeah, some puppies can be like this. It might try your patience but rest assured she's not untrainable. With proper training and consistency she will learn eventually, and she will also grow out of the super crazy turbo puppy stage.

Though I should mention it's also important to teach your dog to have an "off switch" (especially important for high-intensity working breeds.) Meaning when she's indoors and it isn't playtime, she needs to chill. Many dogs figure this out intuitively but essentially making clear boundaries about playtime (reward calm behavior; only start playing or go outside with her when she's not being obnoxious, etc.) will teach her how to be calm when she needs to be.

Also, re: socialization--it's definitely important and puppy preschool can be helpful with that. But it isn't necessary--just make sure to take her out a lot, around places she'll meet and interact with other dogs (in safe, controlled environments like a petstore, or meeting up with friends who have dogs you can trust around your puppy.) No need to overwhelm her but just don't isolate her
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>>2020374
>>2020368
she looks like this the majority of the time atm
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>>2020368
Her dad is a koolie hence the blaze and spots
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>>2020370
>Please do not do this, OP. There's no reason to abuse your dog just because she's being a normal puppy.
scruffing a dog and putting it on its back is not abuse

it's called training your fucking dog

>>2020348
this is abuse

shut the FUCK up
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>>2020375
>>2020377
cute :3
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>>2020545
No, doing those things isn't inherently abusive, but doing them when it isn't necessary or relevant is. This is one of those times.

And yes, I agree that the other anon's suggestion was abuse without question, regardless of the occasion.
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Got a 13 week old Border Collie myself.

When she's playful, I tend to go for redirection. And it usually works for a while until I show signs that I'm ready to get up and move around, in which she'll go for my feet, etc.

Then I leave the room while saying "No bite" and then stand quietly out of reach behind her gate and ignore her. When I walk back in I say it again.
I think its starting to take some effect. She seems to hesitate when I say it now, but tends to go back to attacking anyways.

Beyond that, if she reaches those hyper states where she just doesn't listen to any directions or distractions at all, just make her take a nap. Its apparently usually an indicator of a puppy being overtired or overstimulated.

If that means hopping on the couch and ignoring her, or placing her in her kennel (but with a toy and without implying its punishment unless absolutely necessary) then so be it.

Hang in there OP.
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>>2020348
This.

My dog will never EVER bite me unless i were to perhaps try and kill her.

with previous dogs - even little ones, I've had them bite me and latch on so hard that even trying to shake them off wouldn't work - and those were dog's i'd never physically disciplined before.

They are animals. I keep cattle and i kick my bulls in the nose when they get rowdy.

Similarly when the dogs are very little they learn that if they bite my hands or tear up my shoes then they are going to get whacked in the nose by a rolled up newspaper.

That being said, I'll never stop positive reenforcement - i jsut learned later on in life that corporal punishment is a handy tool - especially for strong willed or stubborn dogs.
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>ITT: A bunch of limp wristed PETA faggots debate the finer points of fellating their herding animals into submission.
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Yes, lets ignore all of the research pointing to positive reinforcement being more effective than negative reinforcement.
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>>2021051
sure, why not?

it only exists if you define "effective" to meet the criteria of the current socio-political paradigm of western culture.

>why is it more effective?
>because we decided "effective" means using positive reinforcement.
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>>2021058
>because we decided "effective" means using obeying commands instead of by being able to take a beating.
fix'd that for you.
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>>2021072
>fix'd that for you
you didn't though.
you can play pretend all day, but that doesn't mean you have a pile of studies using unbiased, objective metrics and methods.

the simple fact is neither one is effective by itself.
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>>2021058

Spoken like someone who has literally never been to a shelter and had to work with abused dogs.
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>>2021082
he look, I've not only defined negative reinforcement to mean "ineffective," I also called it "abuse."

the question is if negative reinforcement works. It undoubtedly does, otherwise shock collars wouldn't be so popular.
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>>2021086

>shock collars

You're missing the point. Yes, beating a dog MAY stop the dog from doing a certain behaviour, BUT it will cause psycological issues with the dog and make it more prone to agression/fear. It also will trust you less because of it. Whats the down side to positive reinforcement?
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>>2021089
>Whats the down side to positive reinforcement?
it doesn't work for preventing unwanted behaviors.

both are required. communication isn't all just sunshine and rainbows.
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>>2021089
>Yes, beating a dog MAY stop the dog
also, not all negative reinforcement is beating.
stop being a disingenuous fuckwad.
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>>2021086

Fucking hell, lets just look at humans. Kids from broken homes where they get beaten are more likely themselves to suffer a mass of psycological issues. Sure, a slap on the bum isn't so bad, but even that is an emptional response from the parent, not a well thought out method of punishment.
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>>2021090

It does. You can positively reinforce a dog to obey commands. My dog will completely stop whatever he's doing when I say enough. You just dont know how to train your dog properly.
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>>2021092
>Fucking hell, lets just look at humans
why, do you prefer anthropomorphizing?
>a mass of psycological issues.
or perhaps crazy parents produce crazy kids and beating kids is just one symptom of crazy.

or perhaps there's a sampling bias because you're not aware of all the beaten kids that don't have psychological issues.

or perhaps everyone now meets the definition of having psychological issues whether beaten or not.

the fact remains though, dogs aren't humans and negative reinforcement doesn't mean beating.
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>>2021096

No the fact is that negative reinforcement is a lazy mans way of training a dog. Funny how its always sprouted by men as being an effective method.
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>>2021094
>My dog will completely stop whatever he's doing when I say enough
yes, you haven't trained him to avoid unwanted behaviors when you aren't around.

you've just trained him to freeze when you're there to give the command.
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>>2021097
>No the fact is that negative reinforcement is a lazy mans way of training a dog
it's the lazy man's way because it works better.

and yes, I know you're a woman. You still think and argue like a woman. You don't have to announce it, your penchant for false dichotomy and inability to understand abstract concepts is a dead giveaway.
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>>2021101

>it works better

How exactly do you train a dog to sit using negative reinforcment? Or house train a dog?
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>>2021102
sorry, I bought into your false dichotomy.
it is equally necessary, not better.

it works better for stopping unwanted behaviors.

you can't train a dog to sit with negative reinforcement.

house training is much faster and easier using negative reinforcement. You just apply your punishment when they make a mess and then toss them outside. They learn pretty quickly.
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>>2021101
>yes, I know you're a woman.

Who cares? Quit bringing bullshit gender politics into shit where it doesn't belong.
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>>2021103

>trying to pretend to be smart

The only way to train a dog is positive reinforcement. Fact.

Physical punishment is one way to stop unwanted behaviours, not even an effective one.

>best way to house train a dog is to beat it

In your opinion as a moron.
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>>2021104
she brought it up.
learn to read.
>>2021105
>still equating negative reinforcement with beating

I'll just assume you're trolling, ausfag.
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>>2021107

Heres a fun fact for you. A puppy thats well socialized and positively reinforced into wanted behaviours doesnt need to be negatovely punished at all. My dog listens to what I say not out of fear but because he's been trained to...
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>>2021109
>Heres a fun fact for you.
your personal experiences aren't necessarily universal facts.

that's a fact.
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>>2021040
>She seems to hesitate when I say it now, but tends to go back to attacking anyways.
Yeah this is my main problem. We don't have a gate, her area which we close off is the back of the house (living room/kitchen that leads to the porch and backyard).

If I close the door on her outside she can see me through the glass and goes mental at the door crying and scratching. Started doing "time out" in the laundry if she bites hard and doesn't stop tugging on clothes after 30 seconds of standing there ignoring her. Leave her in there for three minutes and only open the door if she's not whining. When I try to praise her for being relaxed it backfires because she gets excited I'm giving her attention and it winds her up.

She slept in the living room fine the first 4 nights (I slept on the couch for the first 2 nights) but the last 2 nights she figured out that she can walk up the stairs to my bedroom and comes in. Should I crate her? I don't want her in my bed to be honest and it's turning into a bad habit (jumping up on the couches too). She's only 8 weeks so we've been conscious she's a baby and wants to be close to us.

Our labrador only got up onto the couches/bed when she was invited never by herself. I can't even remember how we trained her to do that, she was super chill though.
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My little girl is 1/4 herding and 3/4 various types of hunting dog, she still nips on occasion, but is getting better. I know an will hate you for saying it, but you have to hit your dog, don't abuse the fuck out of it, but when she bites you, smack her a good one. I used to have a biting problem, but after just two days of getting smacked every time she bit me she stopped.


The rest of it is just age related, given time they will mellow down.
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>>2021980

I would definitely recommend getting a crate for bedtimes and "naptimes" (for when she's gone completely mental, just try not to associate it as punishment too much).

My BC sleeps from about 10pm to 6am only waking me up once in the middle of the night at most.

I keep her cage facing me next to the bed. She doesn't whine or anything unless she has to go.
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>>2021980
>Our labrador only got up onto the couches/bed when she was invited never by herself. I can't even remember how we trained her to do that
My dogs are similar. The way I trained them to do this was by teaching them how to jump up onto the couch on command. This way you put a clear structure to when the dog is supposed to come up. So you teach them to do it on command which gives control to the behavior. And if they jump up without being asked, tell them no and push them off. They'll figure it out.

>>2022020
Cute pup, but I disagree about the hitting thing. You don't "have to" hit your dog. There are better ways of training them. All my working/herding breed pups were trained out of nipping without smacking them.

Smacking them may work but it also comes with its own issues, for example creating a dog who's hand-shy.
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>>2022078
>So you teach them to do it on command which gives control to the behavior. And if they jump up without being asked, tell them no and push them off. They'll figure it out.
she's only 8 weeks old, should I just push her off every time she tries to get up? She's sleeping in my bed next to me right now I feel like an abysmal failure I'm just too sleep deprived to go through the motion of putting her back in bed all night and I have shit to do tomorrow.
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>>2020342
Don't have much advice that hasn't been posted already, but congrats on the Kelpie OP! Best dogs, I want to get another when I've got more time and money. Your girl is gorgeous, you should definetly post some pictures of her when she's grown up.
Pic mostly related, my kelpie (cross, anyway). She's such a little shit but I can't help but like her anyway. (she sits herself in weird positions like this because why the fuck not, apparently)
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>>2022115
If the bed is low enough to the ground that she can jump up there by herself, gently pushing her off won't hurt her. If you're worried, pick her up and put her on the ground.

I know it's a pain when you're tired, but if you can't be consistent, she won't learn. Teach her good habits while she's young so you don't have a grown dog with bad habits.

What do you mean by "putting her back in bed"? Does she have a specific spot she's supposed to sleep? If so, you can't really expect the pup to know this. If you don't want her jumping into your bed at night or wandering around the house, first off close your bedroom door, but more effectively crate her at night (or use a small playpen with her bed in it.)

If she cries while crated, don't go to her. You don't want to reward her for crying or she will learn that it's how to get attention from you. Only go to her/let her out on your terms, not hers.
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I know you dont want to hurt your dog, but nipping is serious. My friend had a rottweiler that used to bite the back of my ankles when I was not wearing shoes, it really hurt like hell. You may have to hit them to get them to stop, otherwise other people will be hurting. Its not nice but thats animals for you.
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>>2021101
Lol yeah you are a special kind of person aren't you. If the macho 'beat dog, get results quick' didn't give it away, it was the stupid comment about women. You lost this argument before it even started.
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>>2021110
Doesn't take away from the fact he is. Right. Fact.
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>>2022734
>'beat dog, get results quick'
oddly enough you bitches are the only ones equating negative reinforcement with beating.

and I didn't mention women until the stupid cunt said something about men.

just like you.
you can't bring any citations to support your opinion so you bash men. That's why science is 90% male.
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>>2022738
Lol triggered. Im male brah. Does it make you angrier that I've served thr country several times overseas. Must be hard hearing it come from a 'real man'.

Also equating a women to a dog and also calling them in a cunt isn't helping your 'reasonable' image you think you are portraying.

And stop getting so emotional and losing it so quick.... Sounds like a girl I once knew.
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>>2021086
Lol people use shock collars? That teaches a dog nothing but 'that area there shocks me, better not go there.... I'll just wait until I'm on a walk'.

Yuppy training 101
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>>2022743
When I was a kid, we had a dog that had the strongest electrodes available and they were put in several places his body. He'd still stand right in the shocky area as long as he wanted. Never stopped him.
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>>2022766
Yeah dogs are smart and all, but alot just don't get the shock collar thing, same with those sprays for barking. It feels as though it's like curing a hang over by getting drunk again, doesn't fix the problem.
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>>2022739
>What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.
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>>2022706
No I have to pull her up it's a high bed. She has two dog beds on the ground, she sleeps on them during they day she knows they're hers. When I realised she was going to keep coming up I moved one up to my room and she sleeps there or downstairs half the night. The main problem is I have to wake her up to take her out to pee around 3am, after that she won't settle. She just sits there in the dark barking at me so I pull her into bed (and she goes to sleep right away).

I think it's going to be okay. She is a nutcase, but I've heard that's pretty normal for kelpie puppies. It's been a week and shes only peed in the house once when it was raining outside and has done well with training (sit, drop, shake and most importantly "OFF!") so that's promising.
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>>2023275
Well no wonder she keeps barking then! If you want her to stop coming into your bed you have to stop bringing her into your bed.

Because every time she keeps barking at you, you pull her into bed, you teach her that if she wants to get into bed with you, she should bark. You're reinforcing her barking behavior by teaching her that it gets her what she wants.

If you don't want her in your bed you really need to be patient and CONSISTENT. It will be hard now that you've essentially taught her how to harass you into giving in. But if you want to curb this behavior you NEED to ignore her until she tires out and stops barking at you. It might be that she barks for a long time because she'll wonder if she just needs to bark a little longer to get the desired response. But she WILL eventually give up when she realizes it's not working.

Yes, you might lose some sleep. Yes, it'll be annoying as heck. But this is part of raising a puppy. You've started giving her bad habits and now you need to fix them.
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