Caterpillars have legs but pupae don't

No, you'd get a dead caterpillar.
The caterpillar basically makes a bottle and melts completely inside of it.

>>2017675
It baffles everyone. AFAIK we don't really understand exactly how it works. Theres even been a bunch of talk that maybe butterflies/etc are all parasitic animals that take over the caterpillar somehow and the two are different species. No idea if thats complete bullshit or not though.

>>2017692
>parasites
What.
Then how do you get caterpillars out of eggs that butterflies lay? Shenanigans.

It's so weird.

This fat dude has 6 pairs of legs. That's 12 legs.

He sheds his skin and what comes out is even a fatter dude WITH NO LEGS AT ALL.

Where the fuck do the legs go?

>>2017675
>>2017692
>>2017763
What the fuck is wrong with you idiots?

>>2017765
Then where do the legs go?

>>2017767
Another anon said it in the first reply. To go more in depth, it releases enzymes that dissolves and digests itself in it's chrysalis stage. Depending on how far it's into it, if you were to cut it open - liquidized caterpillar soup would just ooze out and only a group of cells called discs survive it. Later the caterpillar grows more of them which will then grow into new parts for the butterfly(discs for its eyes, discs for its wings, legs, etc). Once all the caterpillar 'goop' is gone, those discs start growing and shaping into butterfly parts.

tl;dr caterpillars melt instead their skin-shells and the leftovers grow into a butterfly

>>2017771
I didn't ask about butterflies, anon. I asked about the pupa.

Caterpillar has 12 legs. Pupa has none. The change is instance. Where do they go?

>>2017785
They walk away

>>2017771
>tl;dr caterpillars melt instead their skin-shells and the leftovers grow into a butterfly
which is a parasitoid organism almost indistinguishable from the caterpillar.

Never thought I'd have to explain this but the first three pairs of legs are the animal's actual real legs. The rest are psuedo legs.

>>2017692

>What's incomplete development

Literally autism

>>2017785

No, the caterpillar has 6 legs. All insects have 6 legs. The remaining ones are prolegs/pseudolegs.

>>2017771 This should answer your question 2bh...

So the butterfly that emerges from a chrysalis is a conpletely new organism?

If insects actually possess consciousness it will be a distinct and new 'mind'?

>>2017692
>AFAIK we don't really understand exactly how it works.
you dont know anything then

it's very well understood

>>2017692
>butterfly conspiracy theory

Didn't expect something like this to even exist.

>>2017814
>If insects actually possess consciousness it will be a distinct and new 'mind'?

No, there was a study done on this. Butterflies actually retain their caterpillar "memories". Which is even more amazing if you ask me considering they're completely disassembled and then put back together in a different fashion.

>>2017692
Fucking magnets man.

>>2017849
Here is an article on this phenomenon. http://m.livescience.com/2349-butterflies-remember-caterpillar-days.html

>>2017849
It isn't their memories, it is that the microscopic larval butterfly inside the caterpillar has been watching what it's been up to, probably. Theres not really a way to disprove that, and a to of wasp species do it.

IIRC it's thought that butterflies are just ultra specialist wasps.

File: Butterflies are parasites.jpg (12KB, 473x356px) Image search: [Google]

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>mfw this thread

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Pls, anon, I just wanted to know where the legs went.

I know the pupa liquefies into butterfly. But the changes happen over the course of weeks.

But the caterpillar simply sheds the skin and out comes the pupa, WITH NO FUCKING LEGS.

Where do the legs go? Everyone keeps fucking talking about the damn butterfly. BUT I ASKED ABOUT THE PUPA GODDAMNIT.

>>2018258

Caterpillar doesn't shed shit. The "pupa" is actually a chrysalis, which is woven from spit-silk.

>>2018261
>chrysalis
A chrysalis is a butterfly pupa. All chrysalises are pupae, but not all pupae are chrysalises.

That thing woven from silk is a cocoon. Moths make cocoon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkWr5k2H__Y

this thread made me confused

>>2018258
http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2013/05/14/3-d-scans-caterpillars-transforming-butterflies-metamorphosis/

>>2018331
Why do you do this to me, anon?

I've already said that I know how a pupa turns into a butterfly.

What I ask is HOW DOES A CATERPILLAR TURNS INTO A PUPA.

>>2017802
Guys, my sides escaped my house but I have them micro-chipped. Will they be okay?

>>2018333
>HOW DOES A CATERPILLAR TURNS INTO A PUPA.

It spits all over itself until a good layer of spitcrud is built up and hardens.

>>2018366
What you've just described is a cocoon, not a pupa.

Omg op you're so retarded

>>2018378
omg lol

>>2018035
I love you. Please keep posting, I want to know more about the parasitic butterfly menace.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pupa

>mfw everyone replying to op is retarded

Guys. It's actually a serious question.

>>2018624
Butterflies work exactly like normal parasitoid wasps, except they personally raise their own hosts. Where a normal parasitoid would just hollow out the caterpillar as it was, the cells lay dormant and cause the caterpillar to make a pupa after it fucks up it's genetic code. Kind of like a really bad weird mismolt. Once in the pupa, the wasp genes kick in and digest everything and use the nutrients to form its new body. The only thing left over is some dna of the caterpillar interwoven into the wasp/butterflies reproductive tract. The wasp then lays caterpillar eggs, with a few of the wasp cells inside waiting activation.

Thats how the cycle works, and all animals that pupate or etc do something similar and are actually two fucked up species.

File: WHERE DO THE LEGS GO.jpg (906KB, 847x1914px) Image search: [Google]

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Look, anon. I don't know what is it with my question that confuses you guys so. So I made a helpful pic to illustrate what exactly it is that baffles me about the pupa.

WHAT HAPPENS TO THE LEGS???

>>2018783
they are inside the pupa. it's like a full body sleeping bag

I never stopped to think about butterflies before. After watching that metamorphosis video and reading this thread i am disgusted, shocked, and genuinely frightened that such a thing exists and ocurs on our planet. Its like a science fiction monster. Imagine being the caterpillar and going through that. This shit seems to foreign and invasive and inhumane.
As I get older ive gotten so weak. I cant even look at gore anymore. Now this stuff is making me quesy. Why? What has happened to me.

Its all interesting none the less. What other mind blowing and scary insects are there?

>>2018817
http://bogleech.com/wheelbearers.html
Not insects, but read the last bit here on DNA.

Also look into parasitoid wasps.

So a caterpillar will eat itself to turn into a butterfly?
That's fucked up

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>>2018129

>>2018890
SLAMS DAT MUFUCKIN LIKE BUTTON
LIKELIKELIKELIKE

So no one has an answer huh?

Guys when a person becomes a sleeping bag where do the legs go?

There's for legs before and no legs after? Where do they go?

>>2020488
>tfw you will never go in to a sleeping bag, dissolve, and emerge as a cute little girl

why live

>>2018817
"I can't even look at gore anymore"
Congrats, you're normal.

>>2018723
Never realised caterpillars/butterfly's could be so interesting. So this suggests there were originally caterpillars that wouldn't transform, and some form of wasp essentially hijacked their species to create a new hybrid species?

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>>2020564

>>2018815
>they are inside the pupa
But the pupa emerged OUT from inside the caterpillar? How do the legs get inside the pupa in that case?

>>2020648

Think of the caterpillar's exoskeleton like an onion.
It has layers.
And each time it molts, the new exoskeleton has been growing underneath for some time.
Then, one day, it sheds and the new skin isn't the same as the one before.

Now, all of the caterpillar's systems and organs are inside of the pupa. Here it all happens again.

A new exoskeleton and reconfigured organs begin to take shape inside of the pupa, which is pretty comparable to a human's full body cast made of one large callous.

>>2020651
oh you're no fun anymore

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>>2017692
Then how would they make baby caterpillars?

>>2020651
So during the molting this things have 6 pairs of legs at the same time?

3 pairs of its original caterpillar legs.

And 3 new ones inside the pupa? That's what you're saying?

>>2021200

Not necessarily. The ones inside the pupa aren't really legs until some time into the actual metamorphosing.

>>2021207
So it detaches its caterpillar legs?

>>2021209

Yes and no. As the caterpillar gets closer to molting, the legs actually withdraw from the old skin and sort of fuse into the abdomen while the chitin is still soft. Then the pupa pulls itself tight as the exoskeleton hardens.

A caterpillar only has six real legs. The ones in the back are just specialized nubs on the tail end of the caterpillar.

Honestly, the video above does a perfectly good job of showing you what's going on.

>>2021215
Ahhh, finally someone who knows their shit.

>the legs actually withdraw from the old skin and sort of fuse into the abdomen

So this happens after the dude has climbed up and hanged himself up-side-down, right?

>>2021217

Mhmm. That's what all the weird wriggling in the beginning is all about. Pretty neat stuff - caterpillars basically work on hydraulics.

>>2017785
They don't really "go" anywhere, they just aren't regrown in the next life stage. As the developing pupa reshapes beneath the caterpillar's skin, the leg muscles undergo cell death and the legs retract into nothing. The remaining skin of the old legs are sloughed off with the rest of the larva's skin. Hormones control certain aspects of the lep's development, turning certain things on and off at different points in its instars and life stages. When it gets to the pupa stage and beyond, the coding controlling for the expression of prolegs is hormonally inhibited and only the true legs are regrown from the imaginal discs, which are sort of like seeds from which new limbs are grown. They are not folded inside of a sleeping bag, they are basically re-absorbed into the body. This is VERY well understood and has been studied extensively.

>>2018035 >>2018723 >>2020564
They're not wasps. Completely different family. Ants and bees are specialised "wasps" or hymenopterans. Moths and butterflies are most closely related to caddisflies. Many insects undergo complete metamorphosis, including flies, the aforementioned caddisflies and you guessed it, hymenopterans (wasps, bees, ants, sawflies). Moths/butterflies are not wasps. They are are caterpillars with different parts of their genome activated/expressed and suppressed by certain hormones. That's literally it.

It's the same creature in new clothing. Just because it looks different doesn't mean it is different, guys.

>>2018261 Wrong, cocoon and pupa are not the same thing. The pupa is the animal, the cocoon is the silk casing around it. Caterpillars shed their skins and reshape as pupae. A butterfly or moth reshapes within that pupa, which is often secured and/or protected by silk.

Goddamnit, I've never hated being a moth/butterfly nerd more than while reading this thread.