What does /an/ think of domesticated foxes?

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>>2013148
bump for biology

>>2013148
They're neat pets for the dedicated owner, but I hope to god they never become popular. The average pet owner can't handle training a dog properly, and treating even a domesticated fox like a dog is a path to disaster. I've seen so many people botch owning exotic pets in my time as a shelter volunteer.

>>2013158
I know foxes have a strong inclination towards digging, but would they scent mark or be destructive?

Furry/wolfaboo shit.
There is zero reason to want one other than the fact they are cute and fluffy. They don't offer you anything that a dog or cat can't do better.

I rather people get red foxes than fennec foxes, at least.

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>>2013148
From what I've seen a lot of people here don't believe in them and think that it's impossible to domesticate an animal that fast.

I argue that this isn't the stone age. Breeding an domestication isn't just "oh look, puppies!" like it was for ancient man. Not knowing the whys of things is why domesticating ancient pets took so long. We know what we're looking for an understand selective breeding and genetics. With modern science and wisdom at our disposal we have managed to fine-tune domestication and are working on making it even better.

I think the physical differences are interesting. The shorter, thicker tails, appearance of new color patterns (like Georgian White), and different behavior like lack of musking are all signs of this becoming a new species. I'll welcome the fay that science finally catches up and makes Vulpes familiaris or something like that the official scientific name for them so people can see they're not so different from what we did with Canis familiaris.

>>2013163
> Red fox, fennec fox
Domesticated foxes are not the same as wild ones people keep as pets. These are specially bred by Russian scientists to actually want to live around humans and can't live without people to care for them. They're different genetically than wild foxes even if related. Think of it as like the difference between dogs and wolves only earlier on when they first diverged from being the same animal.

>>2013164
yeah, I like them best for the science. I agree with >>2013158 and hope they don't become super popular as pets.

they're still prohibitively expensive and and banned in most states so I think we have a long ways to go before >>2013163 curries and wolfaboos get their hands on these

>>2013165
See pic related in OP's post

>>2013158
They'll never be popular as long as they are bred by one producer and are as expensive as they are.

>>2013166
The prices aren't as bad as they used to be. I looked at domesticated foxes on a whim a couple years ago and saw neutered pups for sale starting in the 1,000-2,000 dollars range (plus shipment and quarantine from Russia, of course). That's no worse than what people pay for purebred dogs.

The problem is laws and finding a vet. Laws haven't caught up to the new species yet so they're lumped in with the similar-yet-different wild fox legally. If they are legal where you are, you also need to find a vet willing to work with foxes which can be tricky as they are still pretty new to domestication which means very few vets will be familiar with them as pets. Many people, again, don't even know they exist and aren't the same as wild foxes which doesn't help at all.

>>2013148
Saw a documentary about fox domestication and the more the foxes became domesticated the more they resembled dogs.

>>2013160
Yes. Even if you get a domesticated one, you'd need to be prepared to have an outdoor enclosure for it unless you don't mind your house being destroyed.
Another thing to consider is >>2013178 what says, legally, there is no difference and you need to find a vet that will work with them.
Plus, there is no FDA approved rabies shot for foxes. Yes, logically, the dog one works just fine, but there aren't studies to prove it. That means if your fox ever nips someone and they raise a fuss or they could just even lie about it, it will be taken from you and be put down.

>>2013180
more dog-like, in that they became more neotenous. they're still behaviorally pretty fox-like

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>>2013165
It's still a red fox, dumbass. I am well aware of the experiments and how they differ from actual wild foxes. Just because something is domesticated doesn't make it a shitty pet either.

>>2013166
No, they already have pet foxes and fur-farmers here in the USA have decided to also take on being more specific about their breeding to jump on the band wagon. I am also aware of a company/website that imports/exports russian foxes from their 'domestic' line, and there's a few Americans with them.

Pic related, art from a wolfaboo who had one of those foxes imported from Siberia.

>>2013189
link to that person? sounds like topkex

>>2013187
>in that they became more neotenous.
No not neotenous but resembling dogs and as far as acting like a canine the show did not elaborate on that.

>>2013191
foxes are canines.

and the domestic foxes are definitely behaviorally neotenous- they whine, snuggle, and paw like fox kits. I can't vouch for physical neoteny because I don't know enough about bones structure and whatever

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>>2013190
http://kayfedewa.deviantart.com/
I think she has an actual website about her fox but I don't know if she even has it anymore, this was years ago during their first popularity boom.

>>2013207
oh, I remember her. She was in the popsci article about the domestication project.

Her comic's not horrible just mediocre furshit as far as I can tell

>>2013148
>What does /an/ think of domesticated foxes?
I'm not quite sure. I have doubts that they're 100% domesticated. In fact, I have doubts that even cats are properly domesticated.

I mean, would you really fall asleep next to one of these foxes? What if it attacked you? Cats and dogs are mostly fine, because you raise them yourself, and as you do that, you'll have the perfect understanding of their personalities and quirks. If your cat is a psychopath, you'll know. But foxes are just a huge question mark to me. They are related to dogs, true, but they aren't like them completely.

>>2013189
Wow, you get up in arms fast. Someone must really really hate Kay Fedwa and their little drawings. Seriously, though, that furry and their doodles have pretty much nothing to do with domesticated foxes. It's like saying all cat owners are stupid because you saw a mouthbreather post pics of her cats on facebook.

You lumped domesticated foxes in with wild breeds like fennecs. If you knew they were different, why the lumping? Don't you say it's due to taxonomy because that's like saying all canis familiaris are alike... Chihuahua, a Saint Bernard and a Collie... all alike due to being canis familiaris. It's OK if you didn't know or didn't read the post correctly. Mistakes happen.

Also one person's "crap pet" is another's "awesome". There's cat people, dog people, snake people, fish people, sugar glider people, chinchilla people, rabbit people, so why not fox people? And I'm not saying people as in the furry definition but as in regular humans who think that sort of pet is nice. Chinchillas and rabbits are hard to handle, easily scared, require special care, require enclosures and need special vets and special diets but these are perfectly fine? Well, domesticated foxes are the same way. Different pets, different requirements, different types of owners.

Get a fox , name it swipper

they're not really domesticated, just inbred and tame.

>>2013195
>foxes are canines.
You know, I never realized that I didn't know that and wanted to until now. Thank you anon

>>2013195
Child-like behavior as an adult animal is a domestication trait. Humans think it's adorable so they breed for it. It also makes them more docile in general.

Well, OP's post mentioned the floppy ears and shorter tails, but there are domesticated foxes that not only do not musk, they can't musk. The musk glands just aren't developing like in wild foxes.

>>2013249
Tameness is a sign of domestication. In fact, the tamer an animal naturally is without training, the more domesticated they are.

>>2013262
>Tameness is a sign of domestication.
no, it's really not.
>the tamer an animal naturally is without training, the more domesticated they are.
so all those stupid fucking Galapagos animals are just super domesticated

>>2013247
Did you even read it? I said that I rather people get red foxes than fennec foxes, not that they're the same thing. I mentioned Kay because she was the first one who came to mind and was possibly the first, if not one of the first furshits to get a domesticated fox.

Just check out any 'pet fox forum'. Its full of batshittery from people who have zero idea what they are doing. Granted, plenty of them did not come from the siberian lines but my point of them being shitty pets still stands.
http://www.raskbb.com/sybilsden/viewforum.php?f=6

>>2013268
Yep. As are many of the posters in this thread, I'm afraid. Very domesticated, though they probably should learn not to chew on things or bark so much.

>>2013273
> Forum full of wild type foxes
Again, still not the same thing. The idea of domesticated foxes is that they should be about as hard to care for as a dog. People are stupid about dogs all the time but nobody thinks all dog owners are stupid/crazy just because of a few morons/loons. Our own Rage thread is full of examples:
>>2006069

It's also way easier to get a mutt wild fox from a backyard breeder than a domesticated fox which leads to more crazies. Same with regular dogs.

>>2013285
Give it up. Foxes are shitty pets, whether or not they are from the siberian line. The 'idea' of them being as easy as dog is just that - an idea and until then you just have retards getting themselves into trouble with the law and having a neurotic fluffball on their hands. The domestic ones are only a smidgen better than Tiny Tracks foxes. They still are very destructive, loud and their urine is worse than cat urine(despite that you idiots keep claiming they don't. it probably does smell better than wild fox urine but its still fucking horrible). Their personalities are wishy-washy at best. Go actually read about the blogs of people with pet foxes. You can find people with siberian lines and they all same the same shit, and yes, they are all furries.

>>2013295
So they're shit pets because you hate furries. Gotcha. Stay away from dogs and cats- furries love those little guys. Also all animals can be loud, destructive and have smelly urine/feces. Cats are infamous for piss odor and dogs are infamous for destruction and being smelly in general. That dog smell permeates their entire house.

Whats the problem with furries?

>>2013299
>all animals can be loud, destructive and have smelly urine/feces
until you've kept a raccoon or a fox you really have no idea.

>>2013303
It's unrelated to this thread, but furries are generally seen as annoying.

They are known for being drama-queens with short tempers who are also very "special snowflake". Most think they're the best artist with the best characters but most are pretty mediocre at character building and art in general. In general they hate being told they're wrong and can't stand the slightest hint they made a mistake, often going ballistic. Many of them are open fetishists as well and can be annoyingly vocal about their furriness. Some people just spazz about furries and anything remotely related to furries. The guy raving about how much Foxes suck is an example. No non-furry would know or care as much as he does about furries and what they think.

For more details (warning, NSFW) you can go here:
https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Furry

>>2013299
I keep mentioning furries because as I stated in the beginning of the thread - they seem to be the primary owners along with deviantart wolfaboos who got them because they want to be special snowflakes with a fluffy pet everyone will lust over. This cannot be disputed.

>>2013309
> Citation needed
Got a names list of every non-researcher registered domesticated fox owner? We'd love to see it.

Most furries are under 30 with little income. A real domesticated fox costs thousands of dollars. Naturally most domesticated fox owners will not be furries.
http://www.klisoura.com/ot_furrysurvey.php

I wonder if a few generations from now, foxes will be like snakes and shit were back in the day. Like our grandkids will be bored because everyone has a fox, and now they want a fucking hammerhead or some shit.

>>2013309

you do understand that life is a little bit broader than 4chan stereotypes, right? not everyone who does something you find odd is automatically a "furry" or any other trope you want to apply to things you don't particularly care for. yes, it's a little more esoteric than other alternatives, but there is nothing inherently "wrong" with anyone who feels like they'd rather spend time with a fox over a dog or a cat. trying to call anyone who wants to own a fox a furry or a "special snowflake" is pretty narrow-minded and intellectually immature.

>>2013269
The dodo was in fact.

>>2013356
I bet they will. Just 15-20 years ago chinchillas and sugar gliders were super exotic. I can buy both of them from the corner pet store right now for around the same cost as a rabbit.

It may be a little slower as they sterilize the domesticate foxes before adoption (no backyard breeders!) but if the foxes take off as a niche pet then the scientists will have more room to breed more foxes which means more pets will be born along with the "keepers". Anyone who buys a domesticated fox or donates to the science project breeding them will only help more domesticated foxes come into the world.

>>2013396
Holy shit, I remember when my friend in second grade said his uncle had a chinchilla and even the teacher told him to stop lying cause it was so outrageous. Albeit they usually are more expensive cause fur and all...

>>2013249
>just inbred and tame
An what is the definition of domesticated for you, dumb fuck?

>>2013232
I think cats are less domesticated than these foxes. They were never really bred to be improved or being domesticated. When humanity started farming cats chose to live near them because there was food.

Also dogs were never bred like this; we do only have hunting, herding or protection dogs. There are no real pet or family dogs; they are just more or less suited to be a pet.

If dog breeding was on a scientific level like it is with pigs or cows, they could be improved a lot.
I mean we live together with dogs for thousands of years but our understanding and communication skills are mostly very poor.

>start thread primarily to talk about the science of domestication

>people yelling about furries

ok

>>2013923
Yeah, it's typical 4chan crap.

On topic: Given that in North America at least foxes, coyotes, and wolves have been to successfully interbreed with each other, I'm not too surprised that they were able to breed domesticated foxes that shared the same physical changes that dogs did. It's still really fascinating though, and it's an example of how scientific research often takes a long time to generate useful and/or interesting results.

What I'm wondering is how many other canid species share these same genetic traits that lead to domestication. With cats, it's beleived they are all descended from north African wild cats; the European wild cat is nearly identical, but it's proven to be completely incapable of being domesticated, not even when raised from kittenhood, and crossbreeding it with housecats doesn't work, either.

>>2013163
>There is zero reason to want one other than the fact they are cute and fluffy.
isn't that why people get pets?

>>2013164
>that fast
it was 40+ years
a dedicated systematic approach

>>2014680
>foxes, coyotes, and wolves have been to successfully interbreed with each other
No they can't.

Wolves, coyotes, and dogs can interbreed.

Foxes cannot interbreed with any of those.

Okay, found the right video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrrfLwxApK8

Anyone see this Oreo commercial? The fox ornament is cute.

>>2013148
I remember reading the article that had this picture in a National Geographic magazine a few years ago when I was still subscribed to it.

>>2013303
They're fucking gross. Personally, they make me uncomfortable when im around them.

Furries are into bestiality

>>2013190
She wasn't too bad back in the day
despite the weird furry obsession

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>>2018201
forgot pic