Abortion

What do you do? Man the absolute fuck up and raise your kid, you pathetic piece of shit. How does killing your kid or giving it up for someone else to raise even cross your mind? Your only purpose in life is to reproduce and raise a family, stop being so god damned spineless. That or fuck someone who isn't too stupid to use birth control, condoms are like $15 dipshit

Well you're fucked. See you in the next life dumbass

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>>18720199
There's always adoption.

>>18720199
I don't know if you are correct about cutting off of your potential. If your and her parents are willing to babysit, you both can finish school or keep your

>>18720237
* jobs

don't get an abortion. that's your beautiful little child. love and protect it. God bless.

>>18720199
Did you know she was against abortion going in?

How good is your relation with her?

Most people change their minds once they meet their children. Yea its not easy but you make it work.

Considering killing your spawn because it may impede your education and money earning potential. (((Op)))

>>18720251
It's a ball of cells.

As man, you have no rights in this matter -- and I'm speaking to you as a fellow man, not some feminazi.

I'm not religious, at least not anymore, but abortion bothers me too on morality grounds. It's frankly a very courageous thing to do nowadays, for your girlfriend to want to have a baby, when of all society tells women to just kill "it," as if it were nothing. Frankly, your girlfriend does sound like partner material to me.

For virtually all of human history, men knocked up their women, and then they just made it work. It's only been in the last 20-30 years, that people now say, you must have ALL of your duck's in a row (be practically in middle age) before you can even think of having kids. People have become too crazy about that, and it's not healthy to have kids when you're over 30. That's just a scientific fact.

No one is prepared to face major life events. Everything is scary. But like I said, for all of history, man has been able to make it work -- for the most part. You should man up, and accept that you're now going to start a family and this is a new chapter in your life.

P.S. many people can't even find decent partners, or they can't have kids, even if they do find one. You being able to fulfill your biological reason for existing is a positive in of itself. Probably 50% or more of the males on this website will never reproduce because they're broken (psychologically) or too "ugly" to meet someone.

>>18720209
We were very careful. The condom broke once.

I don't see it as murder if it's in the first trimester and doesn't even have a brain or feelings yet. I thought the pro-life perspective was basically a religious one?

>>18720211
Thanks for the support, I guess.

>>18720233
That's true. I feel like once the decision is made to have a baby, I would rather just move into the father role and sadly give up my personal ambitions. That has to be better than paying child support and never seeing the kid. At this point I'm just hoping it doesn't come to that.

But it definitely is a serious option I need to think about more.

>>18720237
You're right, it is possible. But it would be much harder.

If this was 3 years into a strong relationship, and I was 100% sure of our love, this would be no question. But I don't know if I want to sacrifice all this, for this person.

Am I wrong to think like this? Should I just take it like a man and spend the rest of my life with the first girl I meet?

>>18720199
Babies are cute. Careers are a meme. You will feel no greater joy than listening to your baby do a big fat fart and find her poopy diaper. Kids rock. Work sucks.

Neutral ground here - but people need to stop saying "she got pregnant". It takes two to tango here. You both contributed to the problem at hand and you both need to talk it out.

>>18720291
Dump her right now op so she knows you wont ever be a family

>>18720291
If I shoot you in the face while you're sleeping, is it not murder because you weren't conscious? It's a decision you have to make one way or another, but how the fuck can you objectionably say that abortion isn't killing a baby? That's literally what it is.

>>18720291
>Am I wrong to think like this? Should I just take it like a man and spend the rest of my life with the first girl I meet?

This is a separate issue. You don't have to be with the mother of your child, if you truly don't love her. Frankly, staying for the sake of a kid, is a rather stupid reason to stay in a marriage/relationship, if there's not a modicum of love in there somewhere. This where men/women cheat on each other, fight all the time, and even, worst case scenario, a murder happens.

You can be a 'weekend dad' just fine, if you don't like the girl. Like the other anon suggested, have your parents help out with raising the kid until both of you can get your shit together. It's really only until ages 3-4 where most of the heavy lifting/grueling parenting takes place. Once you can drop off the kiddo at a daycare/pre-school then things will get much easier and fall into a schedule.

>>18720291
>>18720321
Okay Listen op. You want to have a shitty life then have it, but you want to not be burderend for the rest of ur already broke ass life then listen.

Tell her, I want you to get an abortion. I will never be the childs father, I am not this childs father then pack your shit and get out. Don't stay with her till she's pregnant thats evidence against you in court, don't stay for 2 more weeks that's evidence against you in court. Babies cost $100,000s , do you really want that debt? Is it worth it with her? How about after you break up your fake family 6 months after the babies born and meet a girl you really love and want to start a family with but u cant cause you owe to much money to some other girl?

Okay. Leave now, and dont ever contact her again. If you get any calls say I dumped her forever ago, that baby is NOT mine.

>>18720291
If you become a vegetable or a paraplegic, am I allowed to just grab a shotgun and blow your head off? After all, you're barely conscious, especially in the first scenario.

That's my counterargument to pro-choice, fags. If you want to be edgy and end a human life, then just own it, rather try to dehumanize the fetus and say, "No. No. It's not really a human, since it's not really conscious."

Fuck off. Everyone knows that you're just doing that to rationalize your decision, and make you be able to sleep comfortably at night.

>>18720334
Ball of cells. Not a person.

There's no such thing as souls.

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>>18720345
And you're like 80% water. Still murder

>>18720345
You ARE a ball of cells. We don't have to get metaphysical about the soul crap. Again, if your brain/central nervous system sustains significant damage, to the point where you can't take care of yourself, and you're barely a 'person,' then can I come by and kill you then, so you stop wasting oxygen? I mean, it's the same line of logic used to kill fetuses. They can't take of themselves, and they're conscious, if at all. Humans don't even gain full sentience until age 4-5. Can we kill toddlers too? I mean they're not even truly conscious either, if we're going on a very strict definition.

>>18720251
>>18720277
I have to agree with the second anon. I understand the psychological significance of a woman aborting her first pregnancy. But I don't understand the logic of protecting the rights of something that is less developed than a miscarried fetus.

>>18720267
Why can't we stop this pregnancy and then choose to have a baby when we actually have a home for it to live in?

>>18720264
I did know she was anti-abortion. I fully acknowledge the mistake I made. But I feel like she shares in that responsibility too, no? Having this baby would affect both of our lives drastically, and I feel like she has the responsibility to take that into consideration.

We are pretty close, but this is my first girlfriend ever. I don't even know if I really love her. I hate to say this, but chances are I don't. That doesn't mean I don't care about her, though.

We could make it work, but having the rest of my life (and her's) just trying to "make it work" sounds miserable. It would be worth the sacrifice for someone you consider a soul mate, but I don't think that's true of us.


>>18720278
But isn't it also dangerous to see having kids as an end goal? Shouldn't it be the natural result of love, not an accident or a forced pregnancy because you feel like you have no other choice?

We could get into a whole lot of philosophy about this. It could be said that it's immoral to bring an unwanted/accident child into this world, or a child who will be burdened by poverty or the lack of a father. You could even say it's quite selfish to bring a baby into this world at all, considering all the pain that awaits it in life. Many people wish they were never born; perhaps this baby will be one of those people.

I think my conflict is coming from the idea that I still have a choice.
Do we have a choice? Or is the path already set?
It sounds like this is a big point of contention here

>>18720334
Classic false equivalence fallacy with a touch of strawman, thanks for the 2-4-1 deal bro.

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>having a kid
>when the economy is so shit and we're on the brink of civil war
>with a chick you don't even like

>>18720398
There will be no civil war. Please plan accordingly.

>>18720390
I know you probably took some Phil 101 recently, and think your hot shit now. It's not false equivalence when I'm taking the same 1-2 arguments used to terminate fetus life, and stretch them to their logical conclusion. If unconscious life can or should be terminated freely under the law, then why can't I do the same to fully developed adults, which are no longer meeting the working definitions of conscious and self-sustaining.

You obviously don't want to come to grips with that that moral quandary/double standard.

Doesn't matter whether it's 'right' or 'wrong' to have an abortion, what matters is that she's not going to. Arguing about it here isn't going to change her mind.

As for advice, man up, support her and raise your child. You knew this was a possible outcome from having sex, and you happen to be facing the worst case scenario. If you're two adults who are able to have sex, you should have been able to discuss this possibility before it happens. Life doesn't always go the way we want it to, but people keep living despite that.

>>18720405
>plan accordingly

I don't take advice from people who have unplanned pregnancies in 2000+17

>>18720380
>I think my conflict is coming from the idea that I still have a choice.
Do we have a choice? Or is the path already set?
It sounds like this is a big point of contention here

I thought I had already established that you as a male do not have a choice in the matter. Obviously, if you feel very strongly about terminating the fetus, then you will, undoubtedly, pressure your girlfriend to no end to do it.

So I'm just saying. You shouldn't be a 'dick.' I'm just trying to save your girlfriend the heartache of being badgered by some classic asshole guy, that wants to check out of a difficult situation.

I'm aware of the moral arguments that those anti-natalists make, and I think you have to be the biggest nihilist in a 100 mi radius to truly believe in them. I mean, re-read what you wrote before my quoted text. You're basically insinuating that through design you will give your kid a bad life. You're already giving up on him/her before they're even born. Talk about a self-fulfilling prophecy.

>>18720322

The problem with shooting me in the face would be that I was already a conscious being. Fetuses haven't experienced consciousness yet; they haven't even experienced experience.
It's not killing a baby. It's killing a fertilized egg before it develops into a baby.

>>18720320
Oh I agree. Just a turn of phrase. We both made a shitty choice in contraception.

>>18720321
I wish it were this simple. I do think it would make her more likely to get the abortion, though. But if she still went through with it, the child would end up fatherless. There's also child support to worry about.

>>18720323
Staying for the sake of a kid is dumb, but isn't it dumb to have the kid for the sake of the mother's abortion paranoia? I know that sounds harsh, but both options sound kind of ridiculous to me.

The problem with 'weekend dad' is that we still stand to lose a lot. I will be paying child support for twenty years, and she will have it harder finding a partner who doesn't mind fathering someone else's child. In a no-love relationship, it's a lose-lose situation. Why not nip it in the bud?

>>18720333
I appreciate the thought put into this, t\but there is one problem. This girl does not sleep around. I am her first sexual partner in years (she had major depression issues). Her family knows about me, it would be hard to avoid.

Well, you've got to at least talk about it with her. Tell her that you don't want to be a father.

You shouldn't become a father with a chick who sounds fucking nuts because you can't be bothered communicating. It will probably end the relationship, but who cares?

Early term abortions aren't a big deal btw. As much as pro-lifers talk about fingernails and shit, getting one in the first few weeks is really akin to wiping cum out of your vagina.

>>18720425
I'm not the OP, you festering shitsack.

>>18720451
No bro u dont understand how it works, if you like weren't there when the child was born and u left literally 7 months before it was born they can't get enough evidence to ge ta paternity test from you. They literally wont even try cause every lawyer will tell her you will never win this he left you way to long ago.

Dont be fucking stupid. Its not ur fault the kid is fatherless, SHE CAN GET AN ABORTION. Dont worry bro she can also find a cuck out there. you wanted advice this is what u gotta do. i can tlel you are a poor nigger u will never be able to take care of a child that is the only crime ure going to commit is to not leave this bitch right now.

She will get an abortion i guarentee it once she feels that baby weight and realizes shes all alone in the world she'll reconsider how little she ants to be a single mother


Any way op she probably cheated on u and now is trying to cuck u so fucker her theres so many reason why u shuld leave ure just to stupid ot do them but go ahead and be a fucking retard.

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This is now a dead baby thread

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>>18720373

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>>18720199
Seems like you've got a good head on your shoulders OP, ignore the extremists in this post. Is this a fear based thing for her or a moral one? If it's fear then maybe present some data about abortions, it's relatively safe, it's been done for decades etc etc. Not to mention the data on standard of living when having kids at a young age. It will impact the both of you, your lives are no longer your own and making a decent living while raising a child when not stable financially is an uphill battle. I'm sure there's data on that as well. There was a paper in the 90's about how crime decreased dramatically because abortion was legalized and it resulted in fewer kids raised in tough socio-economic circumstances. I'm not saying you're gonna raise a criminal it's just data presenting that raising a child is time consuming and costly. Can you go to her family? Maybe they can convince her.

Plot twist: it's his cousin

>>18720480
or he leaves her broken and alone forcing her to get an abortion. Nothing tells a girl to keep a baby more than comforting her you know why? They know that you're a cuck who would never leave them and baby is the perfect anchor.

terrible advice to put such a wise sage next to such horrible advice for a friend of ours makes me sick.

>>18720488
Won't necessarily force her. If she has support from her family or is just plain stubborn she can decide to go it alone. Leaving may be necessary just because he doesn't sound like he's in love but that won't stop shit. Ever heard of child support?

>>18720504
Yeha i have and if you dont know the way it works if you leave the girl when shes barely pregnant they wont be able to get him for it. They wont have enough evience against him to get a paternity test because there'd be literally 0 proof of him being the father.

Also, it's sitll his best chance. He family doesnt hold her at night and comfort her like a man does so.

>>18720417
>what matters is that she's not going to
That's not necessarily true. She has already shown signs of accepting my view. The question now is how hard can I push before it becomes morally dubious?
Like I said before, I would feel terrible if I manipulated her into a choice she might later regret. But at the same time, I think her current view is based on pressure and thinking that she has no choice.

I knew it was a possible outcome, but so did she. Shouldn't she also "man up" and consider ending a pregnancy to save both our lives, when she was just as responsible for the mistake as I was? It's not like she wants the actual baby, she just wants to avoid the repercussions.

>Life doesn't always go the way we want it to
You're assuming we don't still have a choice?

>>18720446
She actually respects me, and I'm semi-confident that we will make a decision together, as a couple. The problem, like you said, is I don't want to be a dick.

But where is the line? If she doesn't want to have the baby because of misconceptions about health, don't I have a responsibility to show her that, actually, abortion is a safe possibility? It's not as black and white as you may think.

It's true though, a part of me is afraid that I am checking out just because it's easier.

>You're basically insinuating that through design you will give your kid a bad life.
I don't know where you're getting this idea. If worst comes to worst, and she has the baby, I will most likely continue the relationship and be the father as best I can.Hiding my regret for the rest of my life.

My dilemma is that I can possibly still get out of this, so I may not have to give up. We might even choose to have a baby again under better circumstances, if the relationship turns out well. No dreams need to be broken, we can have careers, travel, buy a home, try out that business venture we're so passionate about, and then have a baby that's not just an accident.

>>18720513
No the line is not being dick is what got you ino this mess you fucking idiot.

You're probably a great guy, don't let that ruin you. She would not keep the baby if she didn't think you were a great guy, all the religious crap is BS literally BS.

You have to be a complete asshole to her and leave OP if I actually saw you right now I would kick ur fucking ass literally. You are so stupid. STOP POSTING, TELL THIS BITCH YOU CARE ABOUT HER AND THIS IS WHY U WANT HER TO GET AN ABORTION, THEN LEAVE>

Clearly if she WANTS a baby and you DONT want a baby. You are at 2 totally steps in this relationship. It is not cool AT ALL for her to try to force a baby on you that you dont want. She's the fucking asshole.


Also where do you live?

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>>18720511
You're talking out of your ass. Social media, testimony from friends. This is called evidence, enough to get a paternity test. Which maybe he should get anyway. A one time broken condom sounds like awful bad luck to me.

OP if you and your girlfriend want actual advice instead of a bunch of virgins bitching about pro-life, I would recommend some places on reddit like /r/twoxchromosomes. Actual women who have gone thru with the procedure tell their side of the story. Not horror stories of what could go wrong or men faking stories about keeping a child they will never raise.

I get that 4chan hates Reddit, but you need some legitimate perspective on this. Think about your audience.

>>18720526
Actually im not saying it's impossible but are all those people really going to get together take time off work all that shit to accuse of op of being the father when they havent even seen him in 7 months? How the fuck would they know?

still whats his other option? Oh hes sitll cucked. Im not telling a fool proof plan theres no such thing im just tellig him the thing that gives him the highest probability of success and what i've said certainly is that.


>>18720526
You're dumber than this cuck. Literally 2x chromosome is the worst most cucked /r/ to ever go to. Secondly, this bitch isn't a friend of an abortion. She's just trying to lock down a good ass dude like OP, just think about how nice of guy he is by reading what he's said. He's too nice thats the issue it all makes sense. She's not gonna get an abortion, BECAUSE SHE HAS OP BY THE BALLS.
He needs to leave.
>>18720480

\I ment>>18720531
for >>18720519

>>18720513
You haven't given any real background on yourself or family. First of all, how old are you? I'm asking so I can have a more honest perspective on you. If you're some 18 year old kid, then I'll be better able to sympathize with the abort option.

Here is what is coloring my perspective: I myself am 25 and I'm basically ready for a baby at this point. I mean, it's not like I'm looking to knock up any random chick I meet, but having a baby wouldn't be the worst thing that could happen to me. I've lived for myself for a quarter century. I've dicked around in my early twenties, am about to finish college (late bloomer). I've dealt with suicidal ideation earlier. And so, I feel like starting a family would anchor me to this world, and would make me a more whole person.

So that's where I'm coming from. I was never truly religious; I'm a cultural Christian-Atheist. I'm not preaching to you dogma that I heard from a pulpit. I wouldn't consider you or your girlfriend murderers if you killed the fetus. I'd still stay you're killers though, I mean that in a very literal definition of the word, but we're getting into semantics.

I guess, what I'm trying to get at--I'm not trying to shame you into becoming a father if you don't want to be one. I'm trying to argue that the moral and mature thing to do in this situation, is to have the kid--regardless of you wanting to be a father. Although you may consider your present situation, a nightmare scenario, if you have the kid, in a year's time, you may think 'Wow. How could I have ever thought about aborting.' You can fall in love gradually with the idea. This is very common.

>>18720526
/r/twoxchromosomes is almost universally regarded by the male non-feminist community, both inside and outside of reddit, as being the worst subreddit.

Don't go there seeking wisdom. It's just an echo chamber of feminazis and psychologically damaged women that like to tell others how to live their lives. If you're looking for an unbiased perspective, you're not going to find it there. It's everything, but unbiased.

>>18720533
>>18720526
>>18720480
terrible advice and you know how I know that? because it's not about religion, if it was about religion his girlfriend never woulda put herself in this spot

In christianity youre not supposed ot have sex until marriage it's a sin. LIKE ACTUALLY A SIN. the bible doesnt say anything about abortion.

So the reason she doesnt want to give up the baby is because she things OP is a great guy and is trying to anchor him down. If you're to dumb to see that u shuld probably never give advice again

>>18720461
This is pretty much my line of thought. I will feel like a total asshole, but maybe it just has to be done.
Thanks for the perspective on abortions, I am still totally clueless about them.

>>18720466
I did not know that, thanks man. It seems like a risky option, but at least it's an option. I plan to try and change her mind first, so hopefully things won't get so drastic.

>>18720480
Thanks. I think it's half morality, half fear.
I definitely aim to do more research. The thing is, she's anti-fluoride, anti-vaxxer etc. I don't know how much certain facts will help. But it's worth a shot for sure.

>>18720516
I'm in Australia, not sure about paternal laws here. We definitely have child support at least.

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>>18720537
Didn't say it was about religion, i asked if it was a moral decision. Worlds apart in my book. I'm not going to argue with you because there's no point, you're too conditioned.

>>18720526
"or men faking stories about keeping a child they will never raise."

Wew. You literally sound like a parody of a typical xxchromosomes poster, except I think you're actually the real deal. Yeah... you are definitely not anti-male and not being bigoted at all.... So no man is capable of adopting a morally righteous position, and wanting to raise a kid out of their volition? I guess only womyn can be of good moral character.

dat feminazi logic.

>>18720531
Time off work? All it takes is a statement from the girlfriend, access to her social media and if necessary an interview over the phone to one of her friends or family members. A couple of hours from a desk jockey cop, max. This isn't a one time fling. They're in a 5 month relationship. Paternity test is all but inevitable if he runs. Still may be a better choice if she's an anti-vaxxer.

>>18720550
>Australia

Aren't you guys famous for free health care, high standards of living, and a strong safety net? There are worse places to be a father... cough... the US of A.

Well OP, I'm growing tired and hungry... I will now depart for your thread. Do as you wish. It's your life. I don't know if your girlfriend wants to keep the baby for the 'wrong reasons,' it does sound like she's bit nutty about some things. You can always straighten her out though. That's what men are here to do.

Just remember something. Never got your age, but I'll assume you're very young. You will face challenges and adversity equal or greater to this throughout life. I don't know if I've had a tougher life than the 'average' guy, and that's why I don't sound the alarm bells at an unplanned pregnancy, as if it were the end of the world--it's not.

When other (unplanned) tough events happen in your life, do you just plan to run away from them too? You're in for a big shock, when you won't be able to just check out of hard situations, later in life. At a certain point, you're going to have to grow up and learn to confront your ordeals. There is no running from this.

>>18720566
>cops
>paternity test

Do you actually know anything?

>>18720586
Do you? You know cops can force a paternity test right? Legally may take a while but that shit's retroactive. Sorry i know you don't like big words, that means the past can still bite you in the ass.

>>18720526
Makes sense, I'll give it a go. I mainly chose 4chan because I relate to you guys more than anyone, but I need all the perspectives I can get.

>>18720579
Okay man, thanks for your input. To quickly answer your question, I'm in my late 20s. Yes, I should've mentioned that.
In our country we have good medicare, but we still have a very female-centric family court a la thew US. Paying child support for the next 20 years is a real possibility.
In understand some things you can't run from. But some things you can. I guess the hard part is sorting between the two.

If you can come back to the thread later, please do. I will try to answer in more detail.

>>18720533
I get that having a kid would make you feel more grounded, sure. But what about being forced to have a kid with someone you don't love?

I'm also a late bloomer, and I feel like I never got the chance to dick around like you may have. This is the first girl I've ever been involved with, and I feel like I'm settling too early, to be honest.

>>18720550
Op listen to me. I'm only going to try this one more time. But I want you to really read what I'm about to say and I mean all of this I wouldnt say it if it wasn't true I really wouldn't and if I don't hit the nail on the head just ignore me. But please, you know this is right, and you have to listen to me. It's your only option...


I know you probably think this girl is a great girl, a real great girl. You probably think everything was going great heck maybe you even think about it in your head like this could've been the case anyway, JUST NOT RIGHT NOW. That's the key right there op, just not right now. Change the issue from being a baby. You two are at two totally and fundamentally different points in a relationship. What if she said I want to move in with you and you didnt want it? You would say no, and probably she would dump. She's giving you the ultimatum, be with me under these circumstances or don't. You have to accept it, or leave now. My suggestion is, you leave now because you said "i don't want a baby." That's all you can say. If it was "i dont want to say I love you too" or "i dont want to ge ta place with her " or "i dont want her staying the night " you'd leave. If you can't accept the terms she's set forth you have to break up with her right now.

If she keeps the baby, maybe you'll be liable okay. That's not what she'll do though. The baby is a part of YOUR RELATIONSHIP. If there is no relationship, there is no baby. Easy as that. You just have to dump her. I'm sure she's a great girl, but honestly it's pretty clear you're not THAT into her.

>>18720603
You definitely make a strong point. I promise I'll seriously consider this. I would feel like a total asshole and like I'm betraying her trust, but maybe this is the first hard lesson I learn in life.

Also, your probably right that I'm not that into her. Maybe this is the core of the problem. I need to really ask myself if I love her, and if our relationship is worth the sacrifice. If I am honest with myself, the answer is probably no.

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>>18720199
No joke, watch Juno, a legitimately good movie for exactly your situation.

Should have worn 2 condoms my man.

>>18720199
She's fucking retarded, there are 100x more health risks in pregnancy and birth than abortion. Tell her to do more research.

>>18720642
>I would feel like a total asshole and like I'm betraying her trust, but maybe this is the first hard lesson I learn in life.

You already did that by engaging in a sexual act with her that had the possibility, no matter how remote, of having this outcome.

You sound like youre trying to make yourself out as mature and reasonable, but the things you say clearly indicate you are very self centered. It also sounds like you haven't acknowledged your own selfishness and are trying to hang on to some 'good guy' label in this mess.

You need to understand you are not a good guy. And you need to own it and decide what to do with that knowledge.

The facts here are; you had sex with a girl without being mature enough to recognise the possibilities of the outcome of that act and the forces it could exert on your life, or the changes it could cause. You got her pregnant and now this girl (through similarly dumb thought process) is now in a position that most girls live in terror of 2nd only to rape, an unwanted pregnancy. And your influence in this decision is deeply motivated by how much you feel your personal freedom being hampered, no matter how much you try and front-load it with 'i know this would be hard for her' bullshit.

>Also, your probably right that I'm not that into her. Maybe this is the core of the problem. I need to really ask myself if I love her, and if our relationship is worth the sacrifice. If I am honest with myself, the answer is probably no.

Then you have to also accept that you are a person willing to engage in sexual acts with people you find little attachment with, despite the outcome of such an act being new life, the ultimate attachment....

....So, your choices are that she gets an abortion, and you both just move on with the knowledge that you both ended new life at your convenience; that she not get an abortion and you just run away from any responsibility; or you stay with her and change your life focus to improve the relationship with her in preparation to become a father.

I want to feel more empathetic for you, and her, but I don't. But if you leave her, and she keeps this kid, then you are part of the problem with the modern 1st world. You expose a child to one of the surest things that result in poverty, diminished mental faculties, high likelyhood of crime and drug abuse, and high likelyhood of themselves becoming a single parent, and thats being raised by single parents. All the studies of the last 50 years bear this out, you can find them easily.

but one other thing fucks with my empathy for you.

>I have tried to imagine life with her and the child, and it's not the worst thing in the world. But cutting off all our potential, all for such a brief relationship, seems wrong to me.

Cutting off all your potential? Fuuuuck you. If you are 18~24, the only way either of you are cutting off all your potential to raise a kid is if either of you were on an elite vector in life. By elite, I mean top 5% in the whole world at something, like athletics, racecar driving, full ride prestigious academic scholarship of some kind. Those are the only instances where your youth is a requirement to advance your potential. If you are not one of those elites, you lose nothing by resuming your previous life course after a decade.

This is a bullshit reason, and a selfish excuse that doesn't hold up.

>>18720750
>>18720753
No matter what I say next, remember that I appreciate your post. But there are a few things I need to tend to...

Most of all, your entire anger towards me is predicated on the presumption that abortion is a massive deal. Is it? Unless you're religious, I don't see how a 2 week pregnancy (e.g. an egg that's slightly bigger than normal) is worth fucking over the lives of two living, actual people.

I agree that I am very self-centred, and I feel guilty about that. I mentioned both views because I literally have those two conflicting viewpoints in my mind at the same time. None of them is a "good guy" choice or a "bad guy" choice, they are just choices.

>Then you have to also accept that you are a person willing to engage in sexual acts with people you find little attachment with
Like 95% of sexual activity in the real world? You sound like a very conservative guy. Not saying you're wrong, just unrealistic.

How is it running away from responsibility if we both come to that decision as a couple? Sure, I'm scared of exerting too much influence over her, but at least I am trying to create an open dialogue about our needs and values. If anything, I think it's taking up the responsibility to make a hard and logical decision, over an emotional decision that feels right in the moment but will have negative consequences.
Have you ever considered how many parents regret their decision? Despite the taboo, it’s quite a big number - you should look into it.

I'm not planning to leave the kid fatherless. If worst comes to worst, I will become a father and try to learn to love someone I am forced to love. Right now I am considering my options that may prevent that, because it sounds like a life full of fakeness and regret for everyone involved.

I think a bigger problem in the world is young parents who are forced into having children because they feel they have no choice, damning the family to poverty and creating a cycle that can last for generations.

>>18720818
Not him by the way.

>Most of all, your entire anger towards me is predicated on the presumption that abortion is a massive deal. Is it? Unless you're religious, I don't see how a 2 week pregnancy (e.g. an egg that's slightly bigger than normal) is worth fucking over the lives of two living, actual people.

Without rehashing the abortion debate. You should understand that there is a cultural difference with regards to this question. Most of the anti-abortion sentiment was probably coming from Americans. We very much look down upon using abortion as a form of contraception. I don't know how the situation is over in Australia, but in the States, in stark contrast to the rest of the industrialized world, abortion is very taboo and a wedge topic. I think public opinion polls are virtually 50-50 on party lines. Getting into our political system for a minute. Because most of our State governments are controlled by Republicans (the pro-life party) and they now have control in all three branches of the federal government, there is a very strong likelihood that abortion will be made illegal at the federal level within a few years. This doesn't mean, that we're going to ban it, but it will be a devolution, meaning that local authorities will decide.

Well, that's all irrelevant to you, since you're safely in the confines of some ultra liberal Western country -- which the U.S. is not.

>I'm not planning to leave the kid fatherless. If worst comes to worst, I will become a father and try to learn to love someone I am forced to love. Right now I am considering my options that may prevent that, because it sounds like a life full of fakeness and regret for everyone involved.

Like another anon told you... you don't have to stick around for the child. The question of having a child, and sticking around with the mother of your child are two separate issues all together. You can arrive at different conclusions later as you get to know the mother, it's too early for that.

>>18720808
>I think a bigger problem in the world is young parents who are forced into having children because they feel they have no choice, damning the family to poverty and creating a cycle that can last for generations.

the statistics and studies do not support this fantasy.

Single parents earn only 80% as much as each individual parent in a married family on average in one of the less harsh studies out there.

If you eliminate the variable of children, the range of single people income vs married people income drops to around 5% difference

That is a bullshit reason without substantiation given by people i've found to be more interested in their own personal emancipation.

>>18720818
>I think a bigger problem in the world is young parents who are forced into having children because they feel they have no choice, damning the family to poverty and creating a cycle that can last for generations.

That is true in developing countries. In Western countries, everyone has vast upward economic mobility potential. You're not going to 'ruin' your life right now, if you have an unplanned baby. You have a strong safety net, if you can't afford to take care of it. Once you finish your education/training, then you will have a decent job. I hear that in Australia, even tradesmen make bank. I've heard crazy anecdotes of welders and miners making 150k or something crazy like that. Unless you're headed towards a career with very low wages, then you shouldn't really be so dramatic about 'ruining your lives.'

If your parents are sensible then they should be able to help you out while you get yourself on your feet. If you're a NEET loser with no hopes of doing anything, and you've been witholding this, then that changes the tenor of the conversation. Tell your girlfriend as much, and let her make the decision.

I don't know what else to tell you, other then, having a baby will not ruin your life. If introducing a baby to your life puts you on a trajectory course towards ruin, then you were probably already headed there by yourself. Don't blame an unborn child because you're a failure.

>>18720854

ignore this anon's soapbox.

Being in control of state governments has dick all to do with federal authority, no matter what koolaid this alarmist is drinking. The state governments in the US do not form a direct hierarchy to reach the federal government, anyways.

>>18720808
>Most of all, your entire anger towards me is predicated on the presumption that abortion is a massive deal. Is it? Unless you're religious, I don't see how a 2 week pregnancy (e.g. an egg that's slighlty bigger than normal) is worth fucking over the lives of two living, actual people.

If that is your proposition, then why bother with anything you said from your original post? Why should it be incredibly difficult move for anyone?

If you believe abortion to not be a massive deal, then why worry about any moral reservation on her feelings? In your view, this isn't a big deal, and therefore she is just wrong in your mind. And not just wrong, but unreasonably wrong and holding a position not deserving of empathy. So you should not be hesitating to exert maximum pressure on her to get an abortion so you have the best chance of maintaining your own personal status quo. Its as simple as that.

Its either killing babies for your convenience or its not killing babies. And if its not killing babies, then nothing in OP holds any merit.

Your problem is that you have mistakenly bought into the idea before now that someone must be religious, deeply so, to find abortion morally wrong. And you're probably someone who sees religious people as silly people at best, and repugnant and avoidable people at worst so you projected a negative image about them. Then, you had a category error when you found out she wasn't religious but still against abortion, which is what OP seems to suggest the way its worded.

>>18720932
It's not alarmism. Republicans are openly saying they want Roe v. Wade overturned. Something like 35 out of 50 states are red. They want to ban it, but they can't because of federal law. Well, 2-3 more Justices of the Supreme Court are due to retire within Trumps term. All the political scientists are saying that the pro-life movement will make their move once Trump fills up the Court with pro-life Justices. I don't know if you're one of those feminists who's ultra butthurt about this, but it's done. One of the main reasons people voted in Trump was because he promised to deliver the Supreme Court vacancies to team red.

Leave her immediately and she'll abort no problem. Many become too intimidated by single motherhood to go thorugh with it, and those with "trap the guy" intentions don't want the kid of a failed relationship blocking the room in their womb.

And in case she doesn't - always always ALWAYS demand a paternity test. Always. Got that?

>>18720291
>We were very careful. The condom broke once.

How were you "very careful"?

Why was she not on birth control? You were dating for five months.

I've had a condom break twice, and both times I knew right away it had happened. And if you knew the condom broke, why didn't you get the morning after pill?

You have two options, really:
1. Pay child support for the rest of your life
2. Abort & dump

The relationship just won't survive this. Any child you have will be raised in a bitter and spiteful environment. If you don't have a 9-5 job yet, enjoy working in hospitality/minwage forever. It's purgatory for those whose condoms broke.

My advice is to stop to pondering the novelty of being a father. It's not a choice you want to make. The only real path here is to convince/manipulate your gf to abort, and then dump her. No relationship will survive the pain of an abortion either. Not one where you can't even admit to loving her.

>>18720199
Your a faggot who decided to have sex while you weren't ready to have kids. On top of that you have no idea how to put on a condom. Accept the consequences.

>>18720278
>Courageous
You mean cowardly, courageous would be keeping the baby.

>>18720199
Murdering a child is not "ultimately the best thing". You must raise the child. It doesn't mean that you have to sacrifice a potential career, just don't be lazy and work harder, people have done it before and they'll keep doing it.

>>18720958
Got it.

>>18720854

I understand cultural differences, but why should I care about society's expectations? I only care about the wellbeing of me and my partner.

I know that I don't have to stick around. But I do have to pay child support, so I may as well get something out of it and help the child by hanging around.

>>18720860
I just mentioned that because the other poster brought up how fatherless children are more likely to turn to crime, etc. But isn't that an argument FOR abortion?

>>18720931
Okay, it's not technically going to ruin my life. But it will put me $750,000 in debt, not including time/energy. That's how much it costs to bring up a child from 0-18 here.

I'm not exactly a NEET, but I'm a minimum wage retail worker, and a child would basically doom me to retail for the next 2 decades, as we scrounge for income week-to-week.

Either way, it's a massive life handicap. And I'd be doing it all basically to not hurt the feelings of a girl I met earlier this year. Sorry to be harsh, but it is what it is.

>>18721216
>I'm not exactly a NEET, but I'm a minimum wage retail worker, and a child would basically doom me to retail for the next 2 decades, as we scrounge for income week-to-week.

What are your goals? Any chance you fast track into a higher paying job? Most trade apprenticeships take only a year to complete. I don't know about Oz, but the US is in need of all types of tradesmen. If you're working in retail, then surely you're not above training to be a welder, plumber, electrician, etc. If you hustle, by the time the babby arrives, you should be starting a job that should sustain a family.

Also, that 750k figure is bullshit. Send your kid to public school, you're already not paying for health care, and you don't have to get them fancy clothes. They only need a 'Sunday best.' Stick to the discount stores for clothing. Tell your girlfriend to learn how to cook if she doesn't know how. Get her cookbooks now. Your only real concerns are figuring out how to get a better job, and what your living arrangement will be. Rent/mortgages are understandably expensive. No shame in sticking it out in your parents' houses until you get more money.

>it's a massive life handicap

Only if money is your paramount concern. Money doesn't buy happiness. Holding a newborn child in your arms, and having precious tender moments with him or her as they grow up -- will give your life meaning. That is something priceless.

I mean, all I'm saying is: this can be done. You're going to have to grow up quickly to become a dad. But it'll probably be worth it in the end. If it doesn't work out with the mom, then fine. Just focus on the child support and being apart of your kid's life, whenever you can.

Finally, and this is truly degenerate, but if you just want to escape child support, then try to talk to the mom, and tell her not to put you on the birth certificate. All she has to say is, she doesn't know who the father is. She can get welfare, and maybe you can help contribute privately

You made a dumb decision and these are the consequences.

Try talking to her about it, but remember you always have a choice. As shitty as it sounds, you could actually just pack your shit and run from this. There ain't nothing stopping you.

Think things out and try to come to the best solution.

>>18720934
>If that is your proposition, then why bother with anything you said from your original post? Why should it be incredibly difficult move for anyone?
Because aborting your first ever child is a psychologically significant effect? People's feelings defy logic all the time. Even if she agrees that the abortion should go ahead, she will probably have incredible emotional turmoil driven by her biological instincts and hormones, and expectations and peer pressure. Humans can be both very logical and very emotional, if you haven't noticed.

>If you believe abortion to not be a massive deal, then why worry about any moral reservation on her feelings?
What I believe is irrelevant. If she is emotionally and psychologically attached to this fetus, she will probably suffer deep pain and regret for killing it. This might sound crazy, but I actually care for her wellbeing. Not to mention, it would probably end the relationship.

>Its either killing babies for your convenience or its not killing babies.
Your thinking is so black-and-white. Can you accept that an egg is not a baby? Can you except that a sperm is not a baby? So why can't you accept that an egg with a sperm in it, that has barely developed to the complexity of even a jellyfish, is also not a baby?

The whole moral dilemma, if you are not religious, is that it is ending a conscious lifeform. Well, a fetus is continuously developing, and consciousness doesn't become a factor until at least the brain and nervous system have developed somewhat. This process takes months.
To say that an fertilized egg should have human rights is utter nonsense.

>you're probably someone who sees religious people as silly people at best, and repugnant and avoidable people
Again, incredibly black-and-white. Are you projecting? I have no particular view of religious people, I just find it hard to understand why a person who doesn't believe in a soul still believes that a fertilized egg should be treated as a person.

>>18720535
Yes you should stay on 4chan /adv/, where instead of psychologically damaged women telling you how to live your life, you have psychologically damaged men telling you how to live your life.

>>18720209
Now you might be some sort of lowly animal who can't see past its biological purpose, and I'm truly sorry for you, but a normal human being can and should decide for itself. If you were born just to procreate then I can't see you as anything but a harmless mongrel and I'd advise you to never give any advice to anyone.
Also, birth control is not 100% effective.

>>18720199
OP, you have already made your decision, whether you realize it or not. You do not want that child, and such if there's no other option (abortion) you must leave her behind. You'll tank yourself down the road. Don't waste your potential on a mistake. Cut all contact and go on with your life.
There's nothing shameful in that, the foolish will try to stop you but life is more complex than a moral system created by humans.

>>18720535
Also
>unbiased

Woman cheat man thread:
>All women r whores >:(>:(!!!!!
Man cheat woman thread:
>That man dindu nuffin, men literally aren't built for monogamy. Roasties should know this by now

ITT: niggers giving advice

>>18721285
this.
I browse /adv/ and try to help some people out but despite some good folk being here this place is full of scum, nutjobs and damaged robots.
r/twoxchromosomes is still shittier though, don't go there.

>>18720199
You are a human being. Realize that nothing you do has an objective meaning and learn to decide for yourself. Your problem is black and white, you either dump her and cut all contact, preferably leaving the city or even country. Or you raise that kid. It doesn't matter in the end.

>>18720278
>>18720264
>>18720251
>>18720209
>>18720322
>>18720294
Kys my dudes. How autistic do you have to be to think that you don't have a choice? Humans are the ultimate beings on this planet and so you'd need a couple of extra chromosomes to limit yourself willingly. There's no right or wrong, everything is subjective, you morons. I'm surprised you even made it to adulthood.

>>18720209
>your only purpose in life
When will this meme end
Life has no purpose, you only exist to experience things for a brief time before going back into the unknown

>>18721274
the only posts you reply positively to is stuff like
>lmao you will not have to pay child support run away xD
>pressure and guilt trip the bitch into abortion
>don't be with her even if she decides to keep it
you seem like a considerate sort of guy
>>18721287
this guy is right, you've already made your decision, you don't want to listen to anons who advise you to at least consider keeping the baby and dismiss them as religious freaks and pull strawmen out of your ass like
>To say that an fertilized egg should have human rights is utter nonsense.
>I just find it hard to understand why a person who doesn't believe in a soul still believes that a fertilized egg should be treated as a person.
>>18721314
>>18721325
how do you find the latest episode of rick and morty?

>>18721332
Nah. You didnt notice yet. But he indeed already decided.

-he doesnt want to be a dick to his girlfriend.
-he is ready to accept being a father and has too much to lose (late 20's) to actually leave.

He is a late bloomer, and just when ge was able to live life, this happens. Thats rough man. But being a late bloomer you also know that life as an adult can be great, if you keep it above average at the least. Asking to much of this world is what beats you down.

I dont know what i would do. But you are making it clear already

File: Tea AB.png (863KB, 1284x1510px) Image search: [Google]

863KB, 1284x1510px

>>18720199
Here you go anon, consider this:

>assuming you're not a moral fag

>>18721569
if OP visits this thread again, tell me if you would actually consider this, I won't judge.

>>18721305
Wow, a lot of hate for that place

>people getting this uppity about abortion on fucking /adv/

Can't tell if ya'll trolling.
OP, we're overpopulated. Who gives a flying fuck about a fetus? If it's going to ruin your lives, don't have it. If your girlfriend is too selfish to wait to actually have the kid when you're ready, you're going to be miserable for the rest of your damn life.

People saying having a baby gives your life meaning.
They're idiots. Children will only give your life meaning if they're wanted.

>>18720967
She isn't a typical girl. She doesn't go out clubbing or sleep around. She doesn't even have many friends. It has to be mine.

>>18720986
We used condoms, and also took her period cycles into account.
She isn't on birth control because she believes it's harmful to the body.
She sees the morning after pill the same way.

>The relationship just won't survive this. Any child you have will be raised in a bitter and spiteful environment. If you don't have a 9-5 job yet, enjoy working in hospitality/minwage forever. It's purgatory for those whose condoms broke.
This is basically my worst fear.

Thanks for the advice. I'm not crazy in love with her, but I do care about her. I've heard that couples in arranged marriages can learn to love each other even more than normal marriages, maybe this is the case for me?

>>18721167
Pretty sure most people have sex without intent of having a child.

>>18721195
I can see how you would believe this if you see abortion as murder.
However, I don't see it as murder, I see it as getting rid of a fertilized egg before it becomes a baby.

>>18721250
Sure, I could fast track a trade apprenticeship and be stuck doing that for the rest of my life. I just thought I wanted to try different things and find my passion, and leave a mark on the world. Don't you think that's a massive sacrifice for a girl I didn't even know until this April?

As for costs, you are forgetting medical costs, transport, electricity, caretaking, holidays, gifts, parties, rent, etc.

>Holding a newborn child in your arms
Even if it's the child of a loveless relationship; an eternal reminder of your mistake and who you could have been?

I agree, it can be done. But should it? Obviously, the pro-lifers are going to say yes no matter what. I need advice specific to my situation, not to whatever beliefs people hold on here. Thanks for articulating your view instead of just calling me a murderer. I'm not sure that the birth certificate thing would hold up in court

>>18721256
It does sound shitty, doesn't it? I guess drastic circumstances call for drastic measures. I really hope it doesn't come to that, but it might.

>>18721287
Thanks for your reasoned perspective. You're right, but even though I can ignore the moral arguments, I can't ignore the psychological pain it will cause me and the mother. I think this is my main sticking point now.

>>18721314
It doesn't seem that simple, but maybe it is. I keep hoping that somehow we could come to a decision as a couple, and the abortion would come and go. But I guess it's true, that we won't be able to stay together.

>>18721332
>the only posts you reply positively to is stuff like

That's because they give well-reasoned arguments for their advice.

I keep asking the pro-lifers to give me an objective reason why abortion is morally wrong, but they just won't give me anything.

I have nothing against religious people, in fact, it's the opposite. I understand them more than the other pro-lifers, because killing something with a soul WOULD be murder.

What I don't understand is these people who say they aren't religious, but believe that killing a fertilized egg is wrong. I genuinely don't understand this view. You need to give me SOME reason why I should believe this, because it just seems illogical to me.

>>18720199
>cutting off all of our potential in life for some brief relationship

a. if she has the child it's not going to be a brief relationship

b. you can't be a rockstar now (unless you abandon your child) but you can still be successful and appreciate the small things in life

testing

>>18721438
I'm genuinely 50/50 here. I can see surviving as a father, but I don't really want to go through life just surviving. Being an unloving father is terrible for everyone, and I just can't pretend to love the mother/baby for 20+ years. I just can't. I am a regretful kind of person, and I cna't imagine the kind of regret that comes with willingly throwing away decades of your life. I will be 50+ years old when I have my freedom back. That's just too big of a sacrifice, I feel.
I guess you're right, I have decided how I feel. But I haven't decided what I will do. Leaving a child fatherless is beyond heartless. So is manipulating a girl into killing her first unborn baby.

>>18722511
>People saying having a baby gives your life meaning.
>They're idiots. Children will only give your life meaning if they're wanted.
Yeah, I'm worried that a lot of this advice is just people parroting platidues that our culture has handed down to them.
No one seems to want to talk about all those parents that deeply regret having children. I bet a good percentage of suicides come from that grief.


>>18722640
Maybe brief wasn't the right word. Shallow, young, unrequited. I probably didn't want to admit it, but I'm not deeply in love with this girl.
It's really hard for me to want to reduce my life to just appreciating "small things" for someone I barely feel a connection with.

>>18720199
i'm 20 now and had an abortion at 19. i was on the pill religiously, but it failed.

my boyfriend and i were only together a couple months when it happened and decided to go with the abortion because we were both in college and he was in med school and me studying to be a pharmacist.

it was heartbreaking for both of us, but we knew we had to do it because the life of the kid would be shit and we didn't want to sacrifice our careers.

we're still together and it's been about a year now

tell her that the life of the kid would be subpar and it's better to abort early

>>18722573
>She isn't on birth control because she believes it's harmful to the body.
>She sees the morning after pill the same way.

Ok, so she's an idiot. I'm not even trying to be mean, she sounds like a complete nutter. You don't want to give away your life for this person. You really should have dumped her as soon as her spaz fucking idealogy revealed itself.

When I had a pregnancy scare with my gf, who I love deeply and consider 10/10 wife material, even I could hear the death knell for our relationship, and my future, sounding.

It won't be like an arranged marriage, because in arranged marriages there's a definite sense of purpose in why its happening and strong familial ties. This isn't that. It is a mistake that you will both be bitter about forever.

Also don't listen to >>18721250.
>Money doesn't buy happiness. Holding a newborn child in your arms, and having precious tender moments with him or her as they grow up -- will give your life meaning. That is something priceless.

just lol. bruh, I've worked in minwage for a long time (lucky for me, just a side gig while I study for a real career) these people are TRAPPED and miserable. You wonder why they don't improve their lot in life, and then you figure it out: they've got an unwanted kid who swallows up 95% of their paycheck and 95% of their time. There is a caste of desperate, cornered people in our society you don't even know about. You don't want to join their ranks.

>>18723338
Thank you for sharing your story. It means a lot to me. I'm glad to hear that you were able to make your peace with the abortion and weren't overcome with guilt or regret. That is what I fear most for me and my partner.

We are in a similar position, but the biggest difference is our ages. I'm 29, she is 21. She has a bachelor's degree and no job, I have a part-time retail job. Do you think this changes the situation?

>>18723352
Oh, but I should add. If you do keep the kid, absolutely do a trade. You can make decent money being an electrician. I would strongly suggest you start looking into that now, because you will have no time/money/agency when(if) the kid is born.

>>18722632
>That's because they give well-reasoned arguments for their advice.

Or you simply have confirmation bias, and you are gravitating to the posts with similar thinking anons, that are egging you on to go ahead with the amoral and self-serving decision to terminate the pregnancy.

I don't see much wisdom in their posts. Simply stating the obvious, that you should look after your own self-interests, live a selfish life, and ditch out of responsibilities when the going gets tough -- is a very infantile way of dealing with reality. I'm one of the pro-life anons from yesterday by the way. I don't want to rehash old territory.

I'm arguing that you should accept responsibility for your actions, because that's what a mature man would do. I lived my teens/very early twenties in a very selfish manner. It was nothing but debachery and hedonism. Getting smashed every weekend, smoking pot, going to strip clubs/bars. Going to red light district near me...

I held a very nihilist point of view. Everything was about me. Nothing else mattered in this world. I was a dick to everyone. Then personal things happened. I had brushes with death. Health crisies. A complete breakdown in my relationships with friends and family. A couple of years of solitude and being a NEET followed, in whch I reflected on my hollow and pitiful exisitence.

I decided to stop being a gross and disgusting NEET. I hit the gym, and I decided to head to college to major in education (most of my family are educators). Slowly, as I clocked in hours in classrooms for my practicum, I started to warm up to kids, and this empathic side of me just washed away my nihilist edgy former self. Throughout this period, I listened more and more to conservative viewpoints, in regards to marriage, the family unit, and accepting responsibility for one's own actions, and it resonated with me.

I'll continue with another post blog post. I'm just doing this to give you my perspective and slice of life story.

>>18720199
>She is passionately against abortion.
>but the morality does bother her.
>scared of the health consequences
>the (small) chance that it could affect her future fertility.
She should morally fuck off before her kid becomes conceived in her grimy hands. What difference does it make killing a bunch of micro organisms that feel nothing compared to an early fetus?

>we will both have to sacrifice our careers and dreams to focus on this child for the next 20 years.
Tell her the child would suffer even more in poverty. Don't let the fucking kid look like a stray orphan on the streets.

>I don't want to force anything on her. - that could be very traumatic
>leave us both in deep regret/resentment for the rest of our lives.
>I would feel very guilty about the whole situation
>I feel like this ultimately the best thing for both of us, and the only logical solution.
Trust thyself. You both are clearly not in the state of comfort, you'll never be in that state of comfort again with a child.

>I have tried to imagine life with her and the child, and it's not the worst thing in the world. But cutting off all our potential, all for such a brief relationship, seems wrong to me.
Don't think like that. You won't see the full picture by imagining things.

>>18723311
If you impregnate this woman and the weasel out of being the father you're an animal to me and hopefully many others. No, you don't need to marry this woman, but not nurturing the life that YOU brought into this world is extremely fucked up, irredeemable in most cases.

I wouldn't be able to live with myself. I couldn't convince myself that my bullshit was more important than being responsible for the human life I created.

>>18723365
Responsibility is making the best decision for everyone, no matter how hard that decision is.'
Yes, this applies to continuing an unplanned pregnancy. It also applies to ending an unplanned pregnancy.
In some situations, it is better for the mother, father, and child, to end the pregnancy. Even though it's hard. That is taking responsibility.

You are assuming that family life is the end goal of life/happiness/responsibility. This is a big assumption, and I don't share your values here. SOme of my biggest heroes never had children, out of choice. And some of the worst people I know have children.
Family isn't the be-all, end-all of life. And that's not even this discussion. I am happy to have a family someday. Just not now, rather, when I have a home for the child, a loving mother, a supporting environment, and a stable income to provide. To me, that is responsibility. Not simply choosing to carry through an unwanted pregnancy because the emotions feel nice.

>>18723401
just to clarify this is coming from the perspective that you a.) don't have a responsibility to be in a monogamous relationship with this woman, and b.) she is allowed to do an abortion if she pleases.

I'm just saying you had better not skip out on the child once it is born. that's no platitude.

>>18723365
(my second post).

I don't know if I want to get this personal. But I suppose I should just come out clean so you understand where I'm coming from.

The reason why I'm pro-life is because I discovered that my biological father didn't want to have me, when I was in my teens, and he decided to ditch out on his responsibilities. This really fucked with me for years. I always thought that my mom left him because of x-y-z, but I discovered that my family wanted to protect me from the ugly truth.

So anon, when I heard your perspective, it very much reminded me of my own father, and it struck a chord with me.

I'm pro-life because if my mom didn't subscribe to that position also, then I wouldn't be here today. That is the biggest mindfuck on the planet.

So I can't articulate a scientific and logical reason why the pro-life position is right. You either think a fetus is jello and that personhood arrives later at some undetermined date, and aborting that 'jello' is akin to squashing a bug. Or you accept that if you don't terminate that human life, then it will develop consciousness, and will become a person with a full range of emotions -- and that person will eventually be thankful to be alive as I am today.

Coincidentally, today I'm celebrating my 25th birthday. Welp, I'm gonna eat some cake now. I won't interject any more. Don't know why I'm spending my birthday here.

Do what you want. It's your life. But ending someone else's life before it has even begun is deep disturbing. Food for thought. ;)

>>18720209
fuck you god boy

>>18723439
he's right about everything but his higher philosophy. it doesn't take a higher philosophy to not be a rat who knocks a girl up and runs out.

>>18720323

>Frankly, staying for the sake of a kid, is a rather stupid reason to stay in a marriage/relationship, if there's not a modicum of love in there somewhere. This where men/women cheat on each other, fight all the time, and even, worst case scenario, a murder happens.

You and the many people that think like you are complete fucking retards. Producing and raising healthy offspring is the entire point of relationships. "Love" is nothing more than a chemical reaction in the brain intended to make relationships easier. Arguing that a relationship without love is pointless is like arguing that sex without lubricant is pointless.

The reason why so many relationships go to shit is precisely because most of them are based on love/lust without any thought to the relationship's ability to yield functional children.

>>18722511
>we're overpopulated
western nations have a collectively reclining birthrate, in a few hundred years there will be nothing but second and third world countries because the ones responsible for overpopulation are the poor countries and I somehow don't believe that they're capable of running a working state

>>18723421
>So I can't articulate a scientific and logical reason why the pro-life position is right. You either think a fetus is jello and that personhood arrives later at some undetermined date, and aborting that 'jello' is akin to squashing a bug. Or you accept that if you don't terminate that human life, then it will develop consciousness, and will become a person with a full range of emotions -- and that person will eventually be thankful to be alive as I am today.
Ultimately, this is the issue, yes. Nature tends to not be exact, and humans tend to want everything to be exact. Hence the idea that an egg is a person as soon as a sperm enters it. To me, this is a logical human fallacy. To others, this is an unshakeable truth. I respect your view, but I cannot agree with it. This is a debate where emotions and logic get very messy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyKwybSueDE

>>18723357
>I'm 29, she is 21. She has a bachelor's degree and no job, I have a part-time retail job. Do you think this changes the situation?

I can't believe no one has picked up on this yet. Op is no spring chicken. He's freakin' 29 years old, still working retail and couldn't figure out how to work out contraceptives. And like others correctly pointed out, now you want to weasel out of a situation of your own making.

This whole time I thought you and the girl were like 18-20 years old. Well the girl is still young at 21, but you being almost 30 certainly changes the optics. Your life is going nowhere, you're not responsible, and now when a situation arises that demands you be responsible for a minute, now you want to go back to being a kid? Bro, you're 29. Frankly, you need to have a kid so you can stop being some neet lose and grow up. Also the fact that the girl is young is a positive. Sounds like a good catch. 30 year old women are all used up and looking past their prime.

Just stop pretending to be a kid. It's time to grow up. It's something we must all do. At 30, it's now or never.

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>>18723659
Thinking a baby is going to make someone "Grow up" is the dumbest thing ever. YOURE SO STUPID BRO. ITS A FUCKING ANCHOR BABY. OP is stil lgoing to get his ass dumped, it's not time to "grow up" hes a grown ass nigga u dumb fuck. Grown people dont make terrible terrible decisions and ge tfucked over by a chick with no job lol
MY GOD

OP NEEDS TO LEAVE THAT GIRL

>>18720199
Give it up for adoption. If you and the gf don't feel like you'll be good parents right now, it'll be better off at least having a chance instead of none at all.

>>18723689
You speak like a fucking nigger. Makes sense why you and Op are on the same page.

>>18723659
You think giving into social and peer pressures is the grown up thing to do?
How about taking a step back and looking at things logically?
Raising the child of an anti-vaccine nutter who you met 5 months ago when neither of you have jobs is fucking retrded.
If you care about the girl, abort and have a baby when you can actually afford one. If you don't care about the girl, abort and leave her. That's the grown up thing to do.

>>18723365
I hate to be a dick, because I respect your principles, but the reality is your conclusions and reflections on life are just way too feeble and naive for the problem at hand. OP is going through a legitimate life crisis, your advice, which has been built entirely in a massive, cushioned bubble, not really challenged, weathered or shaken in any genuine way (muh depression doesn't cut it), just is of no use here.

"I was a nihilist, but I saw the light!": you are only doing the OP a disservice by trying to weigh in on what should be a highly adult decision made carefully and pragmatically with your video-game tier philosophy.

>>18723659
>Op is no spring chicken. He's freakin' 29 years old,

Yeah, this sort of changes the way I'm looking at this. If you're literally almost 30, why not just keep it, and try and have a family? You're not 18, and if this is where you are in life at ---thirty--- then it's not like you're throwing anything away by having an accidental kid.

>>18720504
>Ever heard of child support?
If any girl ever tried that on me I'd quit my job immediately and go homeless.

>>18724237
>You're not 18, and if this is where you are in life at ---thirty--- then it's not like you're throwing anything away by having an accidental kid.

Op, led everyone to believe that he was a naive young kid. It's probably why he left out his age in the original post, and only revealed it until much later.

It's must feel incredibly embarrassing to be him, to be 29 years old, probably still live with his parents, and be working a dead end job. He never mentioned that he completed any college, but his girlfriend already has a BA at 21. He tries to portray her as ignorant for holding some retarded views about vaccines, but he's the one pushing 30 with no life experience, or the wherewithal to pull out, or use some real birth control with his girlfriend.

The notion that a kid is going to ruin his life, because he's not "ready yet" at 29 is so palpably stupid. I get no pleasure out of savaging the man, since you're right, it's hard to picture what he's going through, if you haven't been there yourself. But what I do know is that if "ruining my life" in his case means, he won't be able to play vidya all day and hit clubs on the weekends, then he is indeed very immature. I stand by my post of chiding him for his immature attitude. I think having this kid would be the push he needs to advance in his life. He got some legit advice about going into trade work, in order to escape retail slavery. He's not going to take his life seriously unless some external force demands it, and this is it.

Op if you're still checking this thread, then I'm saying this for your own fucking good. You're right. No one who hasn't gone through an unplanned pregnancy can truly relate to you. But through the information you provided, you're not reaching real milestones in life, and you need a jolt. I wish that you can see this perspective. It's time to be become a normie, lest you're content with being some "Chris-Chan" Neet loser guy all your life.

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>>18720199
Man up. Do the deed and now you've got a mouth to feed. This is life.

You're 29. You should be a man by now. What does a man do? A man provides.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-doKUDCXGTU

>>18720199

FALCON PUNCH.

j/k you're lucky you're with a woman who wants to go through pregnancy with you after 5 months.

>>18723311
Are you still here?

Are you afraid that you would be an unloving father because you think you will be uninterested and regretful after a while?

I dont see thise things connected that much. But people differ.

Abortion is wrong. Try and justify snuffing out a human life all you want to though.

>>18720199
I doubt this'll get washed out by all the people calling you a retard, I'd put it up for adoption, especially if your babe doesn't want health consequences from abortion.

>>18720199

Adopt, or raise it. Abortion is... the nuclear option, do not use unless you are dead sure you do not want to raise a kid with her. She'll probably resent you.

>>18724253
>If any girl ever tried that on me I'd quit my job immediately and go homeless.
Yeah man, you show her!

>>18724656
>>18724627
The most reasonable solution

>>18720199
Do not stay together for the kid. Tell her that you'll be there and try hard, but if your relationship doesn't work out, it just doesn't and you won't force that. What you won't bail on ever is being a good fucking dad. You will love that child whether you want to or not, it will claw its way into your heart unexpectedly. Do not doubt this.

That being said, let her know your position and that you would not be opposed to an abortion.

Abortion is not wrong. You are killing a significant part of your life because of this child (or it can motivate you to be better in life). Who knows. Have fun OP don't stress.

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>>18720199

OP, just start a life with her. If she was good enough to have sex with, she's good enough. Both of you don't need to give up your jobs if you're lucky; go ask your parents. Beg. Be nice to them. Offer them money later on at life. If worst comes to worst you can divorce. I guarantee you, anything is better than abortion unless you were a girl who was raped by an asshole. And if your parents don't agree, one of you take care of the kid. Having a kid is a dream for many people, maybe you will one day be glad you raised a kid.

Another suggestion: Move to Canada, or any socialist country. They need people, and they love children. You get benefits and healthcare. If everyone hates you, become a Canadafag and set up a new life. Trust me, its great here.

>>18726217
No man, child support is hell in socialist countries.

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/kids/ruined-by-child-support-my-one-night-stand-is-still-costing-me/news-story/833a420c74ec13b74680d998d7b848cf

>There are over 20 men every week suiciding — and the government doesn’t think this is a national emergency? You’ve got to be kidding.
>The CSA is costing people their houses, their jobs, their lives. It’s a complete farce.
>I’ve given up.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/corrine-barraclough-blood-on-agencys-hands/news-story/24d0a330e1bad282cdc51adf19a92845


>We have members whose calculations have been over-estimated. They can’t afford to feed themselves and they’re told to get a food pack from the Salvos


So fucked up.
The only real option is to run.

>>18726292
Are you the OP?

Are you fucking retarded? If you skip out on child support, then they'll issue a warrant for your arrest and rescind your passport/flying privilege.

You can't run away from this, like a little kid running away from home, because his parents didn't indulge his every whim.

>>18723352
>I'm not even trying to be mean, she sounds like a complete nutter. You don't want to give away your life for this person.
This is the problem. I'm giving away my life, and the life of my baby, to a crazy person. The baby won't get vaccines, won't get a real education, will be brainwashed. And I can't do anything. I'm heartbroken.

>It is a mistake that you will both be bitter about forever.
>these people are TRAPPED and miserable

I still can't believe this is where the rest of my life is headed.

>>18723365
>>18723421
The thing is, I never got to experience those years of freedom and partying. I've only just started beating my depression, and as soon as I have a taste, the first girl I meet locks me down for the rest of my life.

>>18723381
>Tell her the child would suffer even more in poverty. Don't let the fucking kid look like a stray orphan on the streets.
She doesn't care. She thinks government handouts will take care of everything. Yes she's dumb, but she gets to choose the course of the rest of our lives.

>but not nurturing the life that YOU brought into this world is extremely fucked up, irredeemable in most cases.
I am not planning to leave the child fatherless, just hoping for a way to prevent it from being needed in the first place. I will be absolutely miserable being chained to this woman I don't love until I am 50 years old, but I guess that is the right thing to do.

>>18723585
>The reason why so many relationships go to shit is precisely because most of them are based on love/lust without any thought to the relationship's ability to yield functional children.
That's exactly why I want an abortion; this relationship will not yield functional children.

>>18723695
I would if I could. I have no say though.

>>18723659
>>18724237
>>18724264

I understand why you would judge me based on my age, my life definitely hasn't been normal. But I ask for your empathy. I have been dealing with autism and depression my whole life. My 20s were hell. I felt alone, and unlovable, and directionless.
And then I dug myself out. I decided what needed to be done, and I fought for it. This year has been incredible for me, I've learned a lot about who I am and what I want to do. I overcame roadblocks that I never thought possible, and finally had a life plan in motion. And then this happens.
This girl was a part of that. I had never had a girlfriend before this year. I was a 29 year old virgin. But I went from losing my virginity, to first relationship, to now apparent fatherhood in the span of maybe 7 months.
I know I made a mistake, but this seems so unfair to me, when I finally thought my life was starting.

>>18724611
Yeah, I'm scared of being an unloving father, and a terrible partner. I'm scared of living with regret. I'm scared all three of our lives will be worse for it. I'm scared of all the child support horror stories. Apparently it's the reason Robin WIlliams killed himself. Even the rich and famous can't escape.

>>18726414
>This is the problem. I'm giving away my life, and the life of my baby, to a crazy person. The baby won't get vaccines, won't get a real education, will be brainwashed. And I can't do anything. I'm heartbroken.

Is she legitimately crazy, or just ignorant? Is her family crazy too? You can usually gather tremendous insight by hanging out with the family, since that's where she comes from.

I mean, do you have grounds to believe she is indeed crazy, or is this just you dragging her character through the dirt in order to fit your narrative? I find it hard to believe that you can't reason with her, and have adult conversations on these topics. I understand you're autistic, but usually women will cave to men whom they respect.... I gather you can't command any respect right, because of "muh autism"?

>The thing is, I never got to experience those years of freedom and partying. I've only just started beating my depression, and as soon as I have a taste, the first girl I meet locks me down for the rest of my life.

That's not such a bad thing, if she has redeeming qualities. She doesn't have to be attractive. Physical beauty fades with time. Most women your age (early 30s) lose their beauty, and they go practically insane. It's why most of them try to pregnancy trap the first man they can get their claws into--because they no longer have any currency on the relationship market.

To have a BA at 21 means that, despite her misconceptions about some things in life, she can't be all that stupid. I've gone through college and can tell you that doing a bachelor's degree is a LOT of work. I've probably had to spend hundreds of hours doing research, editing my papers, and at least that amount studying for exams. Your girlfriend has proven herself as someone who is capable of being industrious and capable of critical thinking (you cannot write papers without critical thinking: logos, pathos, ethos).

So stop dragging your girlfriend's character through the mud.

>>18726478
>This girl was a part of that. I had never had a girlfriend before this year. I was a 29 year old virgin. But I went from losing my virginity, to first relationship, to now apparent fatherhood in the span of maybe 7 months.

Again, is your girlfriend an ogre? How can she be so unattractive to you, that you want to ditch her the first chance you get? Dude. You're turning 30 soon, you claim to have autism, you do not have major achievements (you would've mentioned them by now), and most women your age want a man with said achievements. I've already discussed this. But women, by their 30s, want a man that just provides. They're usually all used up and damaged from riding the cock carousel for 15 years. Your girlfriend is 21, unless she was a huge whore in her teens, she's basically barely used (sorry to make a crude analogy to cars).

You know how many guys would give their left nut to get a girl like that? She's honestly more than you deserve, again, from your own self provided information, which is still missing some gaps, but is enough to fill out a picture here. And this picture of you doesn't look good, my friend.

>I'm scared of all the child support horror stories. Apparently it's the reason Robin WIlliams killed himself. Even the rich and famous can't escape.

Robin Williams killed himself because he lived a hollow and pitiful life. He never found true love. He had immense guilt/an inferiority complex because he was lacking in his stand-up career (he was known for stealing jokes). Finally, in his last years of his life, he developed Parkinson's disease and was on all types of crazy meds/anti-depressants. His wife couldn't deal with it anymore, divorced him, and he wasn't good with his money. So instead of figuring out solutions, he just hung a rope around his neck and checked out.

You shouldn't compare yourself to some washed out actor with deep seeded issues and several diseases.

>>18726292
>tfw when you realize 9/10 times you meet an australian immigrant it's a guy.

Test

>>18726531
She's not schizo crazy. Just anti-vaccine, anti-fluoride, jews run the world, kill all blacks, crazy.

Everything I've said about her is true.

>women will cave to men whom they respect.
Once women have the baby, the power dynamic changes. She doesn't need the man anymore, the government can provide just fine.

Maybe you're right though, maybe I haven't stated my needs harshly enough?
I am still figuring out how women work desu

>That's not such a bad thing, if she has redeeming qualities
I guess she is studious. Old-fashioned. Not much else. I'm not physically attracted to her, and we have no values in common. I was actually thinking about breaking up with her soon.
I also have an honours degree. It doesn't really mean much. Plenty of dumb people with PhDs.

>>18726554
I don't want to ditch her first chance I get, that's why I'm still with her despite all her flaws. But I also don't want to be chained to her for the rest of my life.

I have an honours degree and I have been planning to go for my Masters. Not anymore. I realize I am an extreme late bloomer, but things have been moving fast and I was building towards future achievements.
Also, there's always younger girls who aren't so achievement-focused.

>Robin Williams killed himself because he lived a hollow and pitiful life
A big part of that was having to pay millions to the woman who dumped him after decades of marriage. That's why he was just taking every shitty role he could and ruined his reputation; trying to pay off the child support/alimony.

That's just one example, see >>18726292
for more

>>18720199
>she is passionately against abortion

motherfucker then why are you having vaginal sex with her?

>>18726653
Because I'm dumb and inexperienced with sex? Because I thought no one would ever love me?
So do I just sit and take the 18 year sentence then? Must I atone for my terrible crime?

>>18726292
>>18726413
I have a dual-citizenship. Perhaps I could just leave the country? It would be hard to never come back though.

>>18726217
>If worst comes to worst you can divorce.
And then 90% of my paycheck goes to her and I live off of scraps until I'm an old man.
Doesn't really sound like a choice.

>>18725690
>You are killing a significant part of your life
>Have fun
kek

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>>18726635
>She's not schizo crazy. Just anti-vaccine, anti-fluoride, jews run the world, kill all blacks, crazy.

Honestly, you should send her my way. I'm a /pol/ guy, not hardcore, but it's where I spend most of my time on 4chin. I agree with her positions on jews and blacks. I'm agnostic on the fluoride controversy, and too much of a hypochondriac to be anti-vaccine. I freak out when I forget to get my year's flu vaccine.

It sounds to me like you mostly have political disagreements. If you can get her to change her mind on vaccines--the only thing of consequence--then everything else is fine. If you're a liberal, then she'll eventually moderate her positions.

>Once women have the baby, the power dynamic changes. She doesn't need the man anymore, the government can provide just fine.

A woman will always need a man. And a man will always need a woman. You need each other. This is a red pill that you should swallow.

Yes. She will respect you, once you start taking the reigns in this relationship, and showing 'manliness.' Most women, especially the poorly educated ones, behave like children. You need to start correcting her, and treating/scolding her like her father would. That IS how women work. Sorry to get all Freud on you, but they're really just looking for a replacement for their dad. Also, because you're autistic, you have to really be considerate of her feelings. You need to work on your empathy skills, and know when to just listen and nod.

>I don't want to ditch her first chance I get, that's why I'm still with her despite all her flaws.

You can fall in love. Eventually, you two will find common ground. Maybe you'll start to see a side of her that you hadn't noticed before. If you always have this preconceived notion of her, then you're basically blind in one eye. You need to really look at her now. I don't mean physically. but the whole package. Does she behave a certain way just with you?

>>18726683
>Yes. She will respect you, once you start taking the reigns in this relationship, and showing 'manliness.' Most women, especially the poorly educated ones, behave like children. You need to start correcting her, and treating/scolding her like her father would. That IS how women work. Sorry to get all Freud on you, but they're really just looking for a replacement for their dad. Also, because you're autistic, you have to really be considerate of her feelings. You need to work on your empathy skills, and know when to just listen and nod.
So do you think I could still talk her into abortion, by talking with authority?
Or should I play nice now so she doesn't fuck me over with the child support in the future?
I have been scared to push her too much past her values, I admit.
These are the kind of things I'm still learning as an autist.

>>18726635
>I have an honours degree and I have been planning to go for my Masters. Not anymore. I realize I am an extreme late bloomer, but things have been moving fast and I was building towards future achievements.

Why are you working retail then, if you're college educated? What's your degree in? Have you tried looking for jobs related to your field of study?

I realize some liberal arts people have a hard time, but fuck. Can you go into teaching? Are you passionate about something, like history? I don't know about Oz, but they're always looking for male teachers in the US.

Really, I think you're just miserable because of the totality of your life's circumstances/decisions. This pregnancy might be the straw that broke the camel's back. But obviously you weren't doing so good before you met the girl. Didn't you admit, that she was basically the first good thing to ever happen to you? You should be appreciative of what the universe sends your way. And rather than, whine, whine, whine, and cry. You should take stock in your life, and figure out how to make a decent living. I think you would feel much happier if you got out of that retail job, and found something more fulfilling and higher paying to do.

>>18726695
If she's passionate about being pro-life, and she's demonstrated this to you through conversation several times, then I don't think you can talk her out of it. I know that I can't be talked out of positions in which I have serious convictions in.

You risk outing yourself as the worst type of guy, by pressing her on the abortion. If she has the kid, then one day she'll tell the kid that his/her dad wanted them aborted. Does she have contact with your family and friends? She might tell everyone too about your cowardly behavior, and then your personality will be dragged through the dirt.

>Or should I play nice now so she doesn't fuck me over with the child support in the future?

You definitely do not want to piss her off. That is always good advice in a relationship. In the situation you're in now, you want to keep things amicable. If she's going to pursue child support, then she's going to do it regardless. Just don't let her have a chip on her shoulder when she decides to go 'scorched earth' on your ass. You seem rather worthless to take to court for child support. In situations like yours/hers, it's often better to seek government assistance than child support through a worthless father. Maybe you can (wink wink) nudge her in that direction?

>These are the kind of things I'm still learning as an autist.

Better learn quickly. And again, treat girls with kindness and patience, even if you have to be a hypocrite. Don't talk to her like if she were a guy, don't be crass or vulgar. Women and men have different 'buttons.' If you press them on a man, you get one reaction, and on a woman an entirely different reaction.

>>18726698
It's a long story, but basically it took me a long time to get over my psychological issues. Thst's why I have been slowly chugging along so far.
I've found a passion for travel, but I think that's out the window now. I also am into art, but that will require years of classes.

It's true, maybe all my fear is simply because I fear losing options. I had such a sense of freedom this last year, of many potentials, of new experiences, and now it feels like I've lost all that.
And the way I lost it, is quite depressing.
Maybe I was just lucky. But I have been turning down women since, so I think it's more me finally getting the hang of things. A bit too late, though.
>>18726729
Thank you for this advice, it's incredibly useful to me.

I was going to play the sympathetic/vulnerable angle, but maybe this would make me less manly?
It sounds like learning when to push and when to listen is a bit of a skill

Yeah she extremely passionate. Which I don't really get, since she is also anti-religious. But maybe I shouldn't question her on it.

OP, you're child killing scum. You have no sense of empathy or responsibility and you're a legitimately terrible person. We have good people dying from starvation and in intense poverty and here you are crying that your own actions caught up to you and that you might have to take responsibility as a nearly 30 year old manchild.

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>>18726770
Ok. Can you explain why?

Why is pic related equal to the suffering of millions of living, breathing, conscious human beings.

I genuinely want to understand. From a scientific view, it is nowhere near conscious. It can't even experience pain until 20 weeks. My girl is in week 2.

>>18726793
>is inseminated and would become a person
>actively decide stop that person from living
Pretty simple m8.

>>18726793
The moment the two gametes fused into a zygote, is the moment when the a unique life form has been created. That zygote, despite being the size of a pea and not resembling anything human, has a completely unique/new human genome--the same as you.

That's probably one of the main arguments for personhood at conception.

>>18726803
The sperm from your daily jackoff sessions could become people too. Are you a mass murderer?

Potential is semantics with no basis in science.

>>18726818
>The sperm from your daily jackoff sessions could become people too.
Terrible "argument". When you jack off, that sperm is not inseminating an egg.

Once a sperm has inseminated an egg, it will become a person unless something goes terribly wrong. That inseminated egg is *becoming* a person and if you abort, then you have actively stopping it from being.

You say that whacking off is the same as killing a fertilized egg, but obviously you don't freak out and making an /adv/ thread when you ejaculate but here you are freaking out about your pregnant girlfriend. Obviously it has to be something of a different scenario.

>>18726818
False equivalence. Sperm and eggs are just gametes, each containing half the recipe for 'life.' Once fused together, they ARE a new and separate life. Leave the zygote/embryo to develop unmolested, and it will become a viable human life in 6-7 months. That's not potential, that's a fact.

>>18726810
>a unique life form has been created
Not exactly. It's still a part of the mother's nervous system and would die without her.

As with much of nature, it's in a middleground. No black and white. Consciousness develops, not suddenly appears. The whole idea of "moment of conception"= soul is a magical one.

>>18726827
>When you jack off, that sperm is not inseminating an egg
So? We are talking potential.
You could have ejaculated in your gf and created a person, but you chose not to. You ended a potential life.

Stopping potential can never be equal to murder.

>all these mental gymnastics to avoid taking responsibility for knocking up a chick
Absolute fucking scum.

>>18726835
>So? We are talking potential.
No, we aren't. When an egg is inseminated, it's a life in formation. Your pathetic attempt at semantics do not bolster your position.

>>18720199
Yes, abortion is the most logical move at this point. It's a cluster of cells. Sure, you're cutting off some "future life path" or some shit, but you literally do that every day in ways you can't even imagine, just by interacting with causality. If you can convince her that this is the correct course of action, then do so.

However, if and when she is resistant to logic, and it becomes clear that this is a fundamentally irrational choice she is making, then be absofuckinglutely clear about one thing: you'll do your best to help if you can, but since she refused to abort it, it is now *her* fucking child. You stated your case, and you made it clear that you have no intention of committing to the vast and inhuman amounts of emotional and financial support required to raise a child, and if she wants to do it, then more power to it - but she's gonna be doing it essentially alone.

You do not need to accept the fiction that you are "equally responsible." You aren't. You tried to abort the thing; that was your attempt at being responsible, and if she insists on maintaining the quixotic fantasy of being able to live the life she wants while raising a child at however young you are for this to be a problem (I'm 40 and would take the same stance if I knocked someone up, so take that however), then it's on her.

That. Is. On. Her.

Hope this helps, dude.

>>18726838
Well, OP is autistic. So maybe we should use a different standard. Supposedly autists are lower on empathy, which would explain a lot, actually.

>it doesn't have consciousness so it's okay to kill it!

Babies below 5 months don't have consciousness either. Wow, I guess it's okay to kill babies. Let's go rip some babies apart with pliers.

>>18720199
Abortions wont cause health consequences. Theyre (at LEAST!) safer than carrying a child to term. That has many more complications than a simple abortion. I had an abortion once and it was the best decision I ever made. I absolutely was not ready for that kind of responsibility nor would I want to be connected to that person (father) for the entirety of a child's life.

People make mistakes. Dont make a child if youre not ready. Abortions are not emotionally or physically crippling- thats just he bullshit religious establishments tell you to try to push their agenda. I do volunteer work for planned parenthood, community outreach and patient escorting to protect them from those nutcase protesters. I am so thankful I had the ability to have that abortion. Never regretted it once. NOT. ONCE.

>>18726838
Sounds like you are a bit invested in society's definition of responsibility. You know, it only exists as a tool to pressure men into doing their job as a parent? Useful in the past, but in a country where the woman is happy to let the government raise the kid, not really about morality anymore. Just look at all the men that get dragged through family court, including many many innocent ones. To reinforce this system is to reinforce a system that takes advantage of your fellow man. If anything, you are the one who is immoral.
And maybe if you cared about existing people before you bring up nonexistent potential people, society wouldn't be so shit.

>>18726848
>Babies below 5 months don't have consciousness either
Da fuck? It's arguably wrong to kill anything that feels pain.

>>18726862
>Sounds like you are a bit invested in society's definition of responsibility. You know, it only exists as a tool to pressure men into doing their job as a parent?

Man, grow up. You got a girl pregnant, now do your part. You sound like a pseudo intellectual teenager. Hominids raise children with their partner, and I assume that you're a human.

>>18726865
It feels pain the same way that a roach or other lower lifeforms do. Might as well just kill it, right?

>>18726831
There's not an exact moment that science can point to when personhood and sentience develop in humans. The average age range for full personhood to be achieved is roughly 4-5 years old. Yes. 4-5 years AFTER exiting the womb. I took a developmental psychology class.

You have to concede that this is a gray issue, because there is not a consensus on what is the start date for consciousness. We know the finish date: 4-5 years, but not the start date. Everyone who draws the first line in the sand is just drawing the line based on their own beliefs and arbitrary reasoning.

I personally believe that the 'begin date' for consciousness is shortly after conception. Once the genetic material fuses, and a unique human genome is developed, then that's a very objective start date.

>It's still a part of the mother's nervous system

No. Just no. Embryos are separate from the rest of the mother's body. They rest in a type of cocoon i.e. placenta. The mother's role is simply providing a feeding tube to the developing baby. That's why, in just a decade, two at the most, we'll be able to grow children in artificial wombs completely outside of women.

>>18726867
Mate, there is thing called abortion. If you don't want to use it, that's your right. But it certainly isn't irresponsible to weigh the options of what would be best for the family. Sometimes, abortion can actually be the harder, and more responsible, choice.

Making choices based on social pressures and current political climates is irresponsible.

>>18726871
>You have to concede that this is a gray issue
I do concede. It's the
>Abortion is murder no matter what!
Prolife activists that refuse to concede the gray area

>>18726884
>what would be best for the family
Absolute bunk.

>Well son, it would be best for the family (by family, I mean your immature dad) if you simply didn't exist
>I'm doing this for the family

You keep pushing this narrative of how I'm arguing from the point of societal standards, but that's simply untrue and is just a fictitious narrative being pushed by you. I'm arguing from the point of being a decent, responsible person who has a normal level of empathy.

>>18726891
This.

OP, I've been trying really hard to level with you and be sympathetic, but I'm exhausting my own patience. Your lack of normal human empathy, and contempt for societal norms, is making me wonder if you're a sociopath. You're meeting the diagnostic criteria for ASPD.

but if OP lets the kid live, he might have to get a job and pay a few hundred a month for 18 years

don't you feel sorry for him

Dehumanizing people, and killing them simply because it's convenient to you--is literally the act of tyrants and mass murderers. That is literally one of the definitions of evil.

>>18726914
I know right.... The world's smallest violins are playing for OP right now.

>>18726904
>lack of normal human empathy
So all those Planned Parenthood organizations, most of the left, feminists, etc are all mass murderers? Planned Parenthood is basically Auschwitz? How has this become government sanctioned?

Sounds to me more that 4chan is the crazy minority here .

File: dogespin.gif (25KB, 380x220px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 380x220px

>>18726924
Are you claiming that abortion is tantamount to "dehumanizing people"? Because it's not. In most cases, the foetus is barely humanoid int he first place - dehumanization is not a factor. It's entire existence is comprised of exchanging fluids with its host. You have had more meaningful relationships with the daddy-longlegs you let live in your bathroom because you remember that they have poisonous teeth, but they can't open them wide enough to pierce human flesh than you have with the glob of barely-biological proto-humanoid you're trying so hard to protect. You're literally imagining everything you think this "person" is. Just stop. There will be time, when it's right. That isn't now. It's okay to plan things and wait until you're ready; it's not god telling you to have a child - it's your sperm popping out of your meatus. That's all it is. Nothing magical; it's happened as many times as there are visible stars in the universe (astronomers, please check that comparison). So get over it. Trust something bigger than your ego.

>>18726963
I'm a liberal who voted for Sanders in the primaries and while I think abortion is a legal right, it still makes you a terrible person unless it is done for medical reasons.

>>18726963
http://news.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx

50% support it only under certain circumstances i.e. underage, rape, incest, or threat to the mother's health. Another 18% want it illegal for all situations.

We're not such a minority. Planned Parenthood will stop receiving federal funds any month now, and Roe v. Wade will be overturned once we get one or two more conservative justices. I'm looking forward to that day. Morality and personal responsibility will win the end. I have hope for the future.

>>18726982
Oh so you're a right wing nut, so you have a vested interest in making this political rather than judging it on the individual level. Sounds like there's a lot of you around here.

>>18726989
If you are the OP, then you offered no compelling reasons why you needed an abortion. Quite the contrary, with every post you made, you outed yourself as 29 year old nihilst manchild with possible sociopathy. Ironically, I wish that you wouldn't have the ability to spread your genes, since obviously you're an awful person, but aborting the fetus is wrong, so I have to digress.

It's unfortunate that the mother doesn't know the type of piece of shit you really are. I wish I could show this conversation, and tell her to leave you, because you're the worst type of vermin on the planet. You're worse than apes, they at least take care of their offspring.

Good day. Mr. Edgy-I-want-to-be-15-forever-asshole.

>>18726829
>viable human life in 6-7 months. That's not potential, that's a fact.
No it's not fact, it's semantics. Just like the concept of free will; a result of our language, not scientific enquiry.

Science can NEVER say something is wrong. Only philosophy can, and philosophy is debatable. To argue that you have the one true morality is absolutely ignorant.

>>18727000
>Abortion = nihilism.
Mainstream media would laugh at you.
Your redneck philosophy will never be what most people believe.

>>18727006
>No it's not fact, it's semantics
Uhmmmm no
that's a biological fact

>>18727000
Dumping a piece of DNA smaller than a miscarriage is sociopathic?

No mate, sacrificing the quality of life of a mother, father, and child, just so you can maintain your extremist moral ideals is sociopathic.

>>18727016
Depends in what you mean by viable.
Depends on what you mean by human.
Depends on what you mean by life.

My toenail clipping has human DNA, is that human?
A fertilized egg can't exist outside the uterus, is that viable?
Etc

The truth is, you are using an emotional argument.

I don't blame you, but most philosophy has learnt this weakness. You should consider it too. It is the hallmark of religious thinking.

>>18727034
>Depends in what you mean by viable.
No.
>Depends on what you mean by human.
No.
>Depends on what you mean by life.
No.

An inseminated egg is the creation of a person and the beginning of death for that burgeoning individual. Your community college philosophy 101 class will not save you from what you've done.

>>18727024
Man. You're such a huge cunt. I wish I was in front of you right now, so I could smash you across the face. This is the only to deal with cunts. There's no reasoning with you.

>>18726982
What about the other 38% of people? Almost 3 billion people are MASS MURDERERS?

That's ridiculous.

>>18727044
Nope, the sperm meeting the egg is the start of human life and the beginning of death. Without that, there is no life.
No wait, the ejaculation is the start.
No wait, penetration is the start.
No wait, it's when the woman and man first meet, that's where it starts.

Completely arbitrary. The whole idea of there being a concrete, set beginning is a human invention.

>>18727070
Retard, we don't have to philosophize here. In biology 101 class, they should've taught you that when the two gametes meet, they combine to form a completely new (human) genetic code. A two week fetus has a unique genetic code, the same as you. That's the start of a new life. This is not arbitrary. This is the one scientific fact that that pro-life and intellectually honest pro-choice people can agree upon.

>>18727081
Do they also teach that you should treat those gametes like you would treat a person?

Or did you make that up to make your ego feel better?

Retard.

>>18727070
Those are all false equivalencies. A sperm and egg combined is what creates a person. The sperm or the egg alone cannot do that and each unique combination of an individual sperm and individual egg is an entirely different person. Once a sperm has inseminated an egg, that unique person has begun their life.

It comes down to two moral considerations:
1. Do you respect the right of a being to exist?
2. Do you take responsibility for your actions?

Right now, there is an individual within your girlfriend that you helped create. It will develop into a fully realized person within a year. You can argue create semantics all you like, but this is a decision that will define who you are as a person.

Even if you were a completely deadbeat father, this child's life would still be worth living. It's a child that would still be able to live in a first world country and enjoy the ability to do something with its time on Earth. Would you want to live?

>>18726891
>point of being a decent, responsible person
Because that a totally objective touchstone

Stop trying to claim moral superiority. Your beliefs are a result of the culture you grew up in, not science, not philosophy, not any higher ground. You are not morally superior to everyone. You're probably a fat American neckbeard with a fragile ego

>>18727106
yeah bro everything is grey let's go murder people but oh wait we're still decent, moral people :^) everything is subjective and there are no inherent truths based on our form of existence and biologically driven social behavior as hominids

>>18727120
Yeah bro everything is black and white, you are either good or evil with no inbetween, terminating a foetus is exactly the same as shooting a person in the face, oh and everyone is wrong except me.

>>18727149
If you got into a car accident today: you went into a coma, required life support and a feeding tube. would it be morally acceptable for me to end your life in that scenario?

I don't see the moral difference between that and ending an unborn life.

I mean, we're living in shades of grey; objective morality doesn't exist. Life isn't inherently precious and valuable.

>>18727120
>no inherent truths based on our form of existence and biologically driven social behavior as hominids
Wow. Rape has been acceptable for 99% of humanity's 2 million year existence. I guess rape is an inherent truth and the moral thing to do, right?

>>18720199

Thank god I'm gay

>>18727167
God hates you.

>>18727152
>If you got into a car accident today: you went into a coma, required life support and a feeding tube. would it be morally acceptable for me to end your life in that scenario?

Depends on the situation. There's no magical moral bullet.

>I don't see the moral difference between that and ending an unborn life.
Let me lay out the difference for you, Ok?

On one hand, you have a human being with thoughts, dreams, experiences, desires, free will, and a right to use that free will.

On the other hand, we have a sack of skin cells with no thoughts, no dreams, no experiences, no desires, no free will.

Can you spot the difference?

If you're saying both these situations deserve the same exact rights, you are small minded, and letting magical thinking get in the way of providing practical improvements to quality of life.

>>18727171

Your deity's love is unconditional, especially towards the artistically superior ones that prevent Earth from overpopulating.

>>18727161
>Rape has been acceptable for 99% of humanity's 2 million year existence.
Prove it.

>>18727105
>The sperm or the egg alone cannot do that
A fertilized egg can't live without the uterus. Should we treat the uterus the same way?

The whole idea that it deserves rights because it has DNA is not objective.

>who you are as a person
>deadbeat father
>time on earth
And you say I'M the one arguing semantics?
These are all very cultural concepts.

>>18727185
>On one hand, you have a human being with thoughts, dreams, experiences, desires, free will, and a right to use that free will.

>On the other hand, we have a sack of skin cells with no thoughts, no dreams, no experiences, no desires, no free will.

Which is what you will return to, once your mind goes into a coma and your life supporting systems begin to shut down.

You have the potential, through the magic of medical science, to come back and join the ranks of conscious and self-sustaining life, but until then you're just a ball of cells "with no thoughts, dreams, experiences, desires, or free will."

Why can't I snuff you out of existence? A potential to come back in proper human working condition, by your own word, is not good enough.

It's an outrage that we would expend hospital resources and thousands of dollars on you, in that scenario. In the absence of moral truths, and an inherent belief in the sacredness of human life, then I propose we just pull the plugs, on people on life support/in comas.

I won't lose sleep at night. You were just a ball of cells, you see. You might've resembled a human, but that was just an illusion.

Just using your same logic and arbitrary beliefs, mate. ;)

Abandon ship, delete your social media and move to another country.

>>18727224
>Should we treat the uterus the same way?
Treat the uterus the same way as what? Huh? But yes, women are considered people too.
>The whole idea that it deserves rights because it has DNA is not objective.
Your sperm has DNA. An fertilized egg is a growing individual.
>These are all very cultural concepts.
No, it's English. A deadbeat father is someone who is not involved in their child's life. It's a description of a behavior. "Who you are as a person" is more English that means major decisions that help define your behaviors. "Time on Earth" means the lifespan of a creature.

I mean, if you want to argue that using English to communicate is a cultural concept and that I should keep it out of this discussion, then I guess we should all start trying to psychically communicate instead of using /adv/.

>And you say I'M the one arguing semantics?
Uh yeah. Because that's exactly what you're doing when you sperg out about common phrases used in English to describe certain behavioral patterns.

>>18727208
Ethnographic analogy, archaeological and written histories, biology (how our penis is designed to scoop out rival sperm), evidence in DNA, etc.

The specific statement is irrelevant to the point. There are many moral systems that were normalized at one point or another. Does not count towards moral superiority, sorry.

>>18727237
You were the one USING those concepts as a fucking BASIS FOR YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM.
Bringing up the flaws in your argument doesn't make me the one relying on semantics.

>>18727237
So women have rights? How do you balance the rights of a woman with the rights of a foetus objectively?

>>18727266
No, I told you what the two basic considerations for the situations is: Do you respect the natural right of the baby inside your girlfriend to live or will you artificially end it? Do you take responsibility for impregnating your girlfriend or will you try to end the situation?
However you answer that is your legal right.

>>18727227
>Which is what you will return to, once your mind goes into a coma and your life supporting systems begin to shut down.
The difference being, you were an already existing human. You still have memories and all those things onmentioned. Killing the coma patient would be deleting all those things forever.

Killing a foetus would not be deleting anything because it has no memories etc to delete.

Pretty simple, really

>>18727282
Oh so we're just debating legal rights? I thought it's pretty obvious whatbif legal.

Bullshit. You were losing your moral argument so you switched to law.

1. I respect the right of conscious beings to continue being conscious.
2. I take responsibility for my actions, and use all tools available to ensure the vest quality of life for aforementioned conscious beings (e.g. abortion).
Basically least suffering possible.

>>18727292
Everyone dies, and with them, their memories. Therefore 'memories' hold no objective value. The unborn child has objective value, however. Their value lies in their future contribution to society. Also, the coma patient doesn't inherently hold more value than the unborn child.

Society has a vested interest in the production of the next generation to replace the outgoing ones. It's why the government gives welfare to single mothers--so the baby doesn't starve.

>>18727308
>Bullshit. You were losing your moral argument so you switched to law.
I told you the same thing as I did in >>18727105
You've got two moral considerations to make. You can try to twist things around like
>oh I respect life
>but I aborted a baby because I didn't want to raise it
>oh I responsibility for my actions
>but I told my gf to end the child because it was an accident
>oh I'm totally doing this for the baby's own good, because I'm not super rich so it would never have a life worth living despite the fact that it would be born into one of the most prosperous civilizations in history that has social welfare benefits
Face it. You just don't want to be a dad because it would mean changing your lifestyle.

>>18727316
>Everyone dies, and with them, their memories. Therefore 'memories' hold no objective value
A bit of jump there bro. Also implies that babies are ultimately worthless too. Good effort!

And if you're using social productivity as a basis to decide morally who lives and who dies, isn't it moral to abort fetuses who will not be productive? So murder is okay, sometimes?

>>18727320
>baby's own good
>fetus = baby
>life worth living
>a dad wanting to keep his lifestyle is bad

Fucking hell, so many moral assumptions. So objective!

And who decides the worth of a life? Let me guess, You?

Your moral absolutism is incredibly simplistic.

Face it, everything you say relies on the assumed knowledge of a potential yet-to-exist person's right. Without that, your entire argument falls apart.

>>18727336
I probably should've finished my thought before trying to offer a rebuttal. Memories hold subjective value, however. And since they can be passed on--.that's an argument for unborn children. You can pass on your memories, both in your DNA (DNA contains memories), and the memories you accrued through your lifetime, in your mind, through our spoken language, and recent technology to your progeny. Having progeny in order to pass down your legacy is the only true way to conserve your memories. No one will ever care as much about your memories as your children will. Not strangers. No one.

So then. If you truly care about conserving your memories, then you would value the unborn life of your progeny. But since you don't, you're either very confused on this, or are in fact, hypocritical.

>>18727354
>it doesn't exist
>but it's in my girlfriend and I want to end it because it's going to ruin my life
uh huh.

>>18727320
You're the one twisting things. I will repeat myself:

1. I respect the right of conscious beings to continue being conscious.
2. I take responsibility for my actions, and use all tools available to ensure the vest quality of life for aforementioned conscious beings (e.g. abortion).
Basically least suffering possible

That is my moral code. Is there anything wrong with it.

Technically, bringing a new life is actually introducing more suffering.

>>18727363
A foetus exists in her. No dreams. No memoties. No desires. No free will. No want to be alive.

You are conflating an undeveloped human that can't experience anything with a more developed human that can. This is a false equivalency.

>>18727371
It's debatable whether we have free will... The fetus contains memories through their DNA, and in short order will have the other things as it continues to gestate. I think there's growing evidence to suggest that fetuses have desires that they pass through their mothers in the form of cravings. And them kicking, is their programming to survive and leave the womb.


Welp, I've spent too much time debating some autist that believes a fetus equivalent to snot. Aborting this fetus wouldn't make your life any better. It sounds like your're just an awful person, with limited capacity for empathy, and flawed reasoning skills. Most humans, at the age of 29, would be rejoiced at the thought of having a kid. But obviously something went wrong with you. I don't care to speculate. Just tell the mother you're going to be a deadbeat dad because you don't want to let a kid cramp your awesome lifestyle and future prospects. You gotta have time to make your awesome memories. I wonder who you'll leave them to, if you succeed in convincing her to abort? Welp, not my problem.

>>18727359
I don't care about memories, that was you. I care about the entire gestalt that is a signature of an continuous, nonimaginary consciousness.
A foetus has no continuity of experience.

Also, DNA memory isn't literal memory. Do you get all your philosophy from video games?

>>18727400
>The fetus contains memories through their DNA
Again, not literal memory. Memory like a rubber band has memory.
>and in short order will have the other things as it continues to gestate
Key word "will". It doesn't have a beginning to consciousness yet. You can stop it from beginning.

Cravings and programming and DNA memory are not sign of a conscious entity. Everything from insects upwards have those.

If you have to attack my character instead of my logic, it sounds like you have run out of excuses for your fetus=person theory.

>>18727400
>would be rejoiced at the thought of having a kid
Really?
You'd rejoice at have a kid with someone you just met, who you don't really like, who you will be attached to for decades and sacrifice your best years, along with having a child with someone you love and could give a good home to, all so that you might not hurt her feelings?

What an absolute cuck.

>>18727405
I don't play video games. What video games contain philosophizing characters? I've been meaning to get back into vidya... it's just that I rarely have time for it.

Obviously, DNA memories isn't literal memory, I think I tried to make that distinction. If you took a biology class, then you should know exactly what I'm talking about. It refers to the genetic mutations/differences that you and your ancestors have passed down for millennia. It's your contribution to the human gene pool. Going back to history, something like 50% of males never got to pass on their DNA for whatever reason. You should feel privileged to pass down yours, just in a purely biological sense. The fact that all of your ancestors did it...means that you are here today.

>>18727430
What does that have to do with the memories of a conscious being?

I guess you are trying to bring in biological evolution as a moral reason to keep a fetus? But if you abort a fetus, hasn't it failed evolution and therefore not fit to survive? And cant you just make more fetuses to pass on your DNA?
Kind of a weak foundation for morals, and not very individualistic. Anyway, that's a whole other argument.

>>18720277
So are you.

>>18727424
I've tried debating the issue with you for a few hours now. We've both agreed that the issue is gray and everyone has the right to his or her own decision (under the law) and position on it.

I've argued that the decision to willfully terminate a fetus life without just cause is amoral and unreasonable in a Western society.. I've presented personal reasons, scientific ones, and societal ones. You reject them and say I'm ultimately some religious loon.

You started this thread under false pretenses--already with a preconceived idea in mind. You were not truly looking for advice. You were seeking validation/affirmation for your position. You were looking for a way to give you some psychological 'magic code' to say to your girlfriend, so you could convince her to abort. You were looking for a legal way out. You were looking for a way out. That's what you were here for.

Then me, and several anons (hard to say how many, since there's no ID tag), tore you an asshole, and rightfully held your fire to the fire, when we questioned you on your desired course of action. This was exactly not what you wanted to hear.

Me getting 'personal' on you is the result of reaching my limit with you. You're not really having a discussion--as far as I know--in good faith. You just want to 'win' and make the 'other side lose.' If you get to convince your girlfriend to abort, then you obviously want to be able to sleep soundly at night and that's why you want to be so sure and self-righteous on your position. You're totally on the side of science, bro. Oh, and you're doing society and the world a moral favor, by ending an 'unwanted' unborn life. So really, you care so much about this, that you're moral than the pro-life side. That is literally how you're presenting yourself.

Whelp, fucko. I'll refer back to one of the early posts. The lady gets to decide if she'll carry the baby to term. If she has the courage of her convictions, then there's nothing you can do.

>>18720199
I'd say you should just have a completely frank face-to-face meeting where you explain all of this. You should not allow yourself to be forced into a life you do not want.

>>18727461
No one forced him to have unsafe sex with a girl that was not using proper birth control. Word of advice for people reading this: condoms sex is not safe sex. Condoms break all the fucking time.

The girl has the final say on what she wants to do with a fetus that is now gestating in her body. If OP, wants to be a deadbeat, then he can eloquently tell the girl as much. And her will be her decision to pursue child support or not. Again, none of this is in OP's hands, and I'm sure that's why it's so infuriating to him.

He's probably felt in control of his life until now, then he made a grave miscalculation, and now he's lost control. His brain literally cannot make sense of the present situation--I'm sure his autism isn't helping. There are cogs breaking in there, and sparking flying.

The major point of disagreement here. Is that regardless of him having that discussion, a new life already exists in that girl's womb, and so, that event has already 'begun.' And he wants to put an end to it. Oh, but he can't take it, when we're calling him an amoral/nhilist/sociopath for ending that life, and hurting that girl's feelings. As far is he is concerned, it's like killing snot, or his preferred analogy, "killing sperm."

Fucking autists, man. I'm going to have a drink now.

>>18727429
>best years
>29 years old
????????????????????????????

Nigger, at that point, your life is already basically over. Everything is down hill from there. If you haven't done anything with your life by that point, you're already fucked. Having a kid is one of the few worthwhile things you could still do.

>>18720199
Life is so much more than a career or posessions. This child could be the best thing that ever happened to both of you. Also there is no guarantee your career is going to be over. I have friends who toughed it out and are doing just what the want to do even with a child. Don't underestimate what you can do with determination