Should I forgive my wife or divorce her

>>17884567
absolutely forgive your wife, did you not ever make any mistakes in your life so far ? if not then rest assured your time is coming

forgetting is a different thing entirely

divorce seems a bit harsh, you 2 were not even married when she did that ? just dating ?

yes on the counseling

otherwise idk how to deal with this but listen to her, wtf would you 2 have done with a kid in college ? drop out ? make shit $$ in shit jobs and live a shit life ?

now presumably you 2 have graduated got good jobs & can afford to raise a child

i guess

>>17884602
I don't see abortion as a mistake. God I hate counselors but I really guess I need it. Im conflicted because I understand the position we were in during college for a child. Doesn't make it right though.
Have you ever been to counseling for couples? I don't have any experience with it. But from the counseling I have had they feel so useless. Maybe marriage counseling is different.

>>17884602
Don't listen to this baby killer. In all seriousness, don't let other people tel you what your values/deal breakers should be. The issue isn't whether or not I or the others agree with abortion. To you, she killed your child, didn't give you a say, and was deceptive about it. The outcome is irrelevant, even if it made your life better. After all, you wouldn't condone her robbing a bank because it helped you pay rent.

The question is how important these values are to you. This is where you prove whether this is a firmly held principle or an excuse for you to be self-righteous. Good luck, OP

>>17884662
This sounds like something out of my own head. If it were 4 years ago I definitely would have walked away. Now everything is so confusing.

Yes she broke your values and didn't tell you, but is it also in your list of values to divorce a pregnant chick and provoce another abortion?

You should not revenge this behaviour by other bad behavior.
I have never been to a marriage counselor only to a private one and it feels great to open up and talk about what you have on your heart.

But you could probably do the same by going to a nearby bar, invite a table with older blue collar men for a few beer and talk with them about it.

Hey religionfag. If you weren't prepared for abortion, why did you have sex in the first place?

She's right, you're wrong. You can't make a woman carry to term a child she (or both of you) cannot take care of.

Divorce her so she can find a better man.

I would say the best thing you could do is reconsider your stance that you claim you "won't yield on." Now that it's your reality maybe you can see how that was irrational in the first place. Abortion is someone's personal decision and even though you may feel like it's unfair, ultimately, it's out of your control. You can either try to be empathetic (if you can't do this towards your wife then maybe you should divorce her), which it sounds like would be perfectly reasonable because who kind of fucking retard would choose to have a baby while they're in college, or go around being pissed off forever that you can't control other people to conform to your values.

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How do you keep yourself from overeating and keep exercising regularly? Like I've done it before, I lost 20 pounds a few months ago, but I need to lose more and I just STOPPED trying and I don't know how to get back into that mindset.

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>>17884708
Wrong thread buddy

>>17884704
>Abortion is someone's personal decision
I am not even really against abortion, but I hate this argument. The law needs to be changed to give men rights here, too.
>because who kind of fucking retard would choose to have a baby while they're in college
Again, there are a lot of decisions we can to make life easier for us, but it doesn't make them moral.

I think OP is entitled to feel the way he does. He'll have to search his heart to determine whether she is worthy of forgiveness based on some very deceptive actions again, because it complicates things.. If she is, he better keep her away from stairs and coat hangers.

She was wrong at the time, but she was also young and stupid. If she beared your child it's likely that both of you did a mistake with anti-conceptive methods.

Now she's older and wiser, and she expects you to to be so. That's why she trusted you with this secret. She couldn't live holding that as a secret from you, and it's probably because she wants to be by your side for the long run.

I'm not saying you should outright forgive her and get over with it, since it's clearly a big deal for you. But that's the problem in any relationship: the only real punishment for screw-ups is breaking up. There is no other penalty you can impose to her as big as her mistake. It's up to you if breaking up is an adequate punishment for this.

Her being honest to you already shows tons about her character, no matter how your views differ about abortion. Honesty, specially about something as delicate as this, should be praised.

>>17884733
>The law needs to be changed to give men rights here, too.
Rights to do what exactly? Force the girl to go through with the pregnancy and give birth?

>>17884744
Not necessarily, but I think the man deserves recompense on the civil side if she selfishly terms the pregnancy without his involvement. It takes two to tango.

Honestly, if she didn't know you were anti-abortion, this is your fault for not communicating, and just having sex with her, putting her at risk of your biggest dealbreaker. It sounds like now she knows, and wouldn't want to take the same path, knowing and respecting how you feel.

This is a point for all men and all relationships: you need to be clear about your dealbreakers very early on so there's no ambiguity here. For example, my dealbreaker is someone that wants to look through my phone or emails. I set a standard in relationships very early on that this is not acceptable, and never will be. But I've said it.

You should move on from this and raise your child.

>>17884684
Divorce isnt for revenge. Its because of the incompatibility.
>>17884700
Sex and abortion are two separate things.

>>17884704
>I would say the best thing you could do is reconsider your stance that you claim you "won't yield on."
No.

>>17884753
>This is a point for all men
Why are you excusing her for getting an abortion behind his back without even having a conversation then? Shouldn't this point be for all men and women? Even still, when a life changing event or decision presents itself and you're in a serious relationship, shouldn't you, as a rule, consult your partner instead of making a decision that will impact you both on your own (and then lying about it)? You sound like a deluded feminist
>For example, my dealbreaker is someone that wants to look through my phone or emails
Untrustworthy feminist, confirmed.

she didn't tell you she aborted your kid but it's impolite in society now to criticize her for not telling you so you get to pick between being the bad guy and being the alone guy

>>17884770

You sound like you're straight out of /pol/ already, but I'll answer you seriously to start, since I'm a dude and not a feminist.

>Why are you excusing her for getting an abortion behind his back without even having a conversation then?

I'm not, really. I think all women should bring this up to their partner or the father. But I also think that people don't always think this through - it's why I tell women before we have sex that I'd like to discuss the options regarding an abortion if she gets pregnant, and if she's 100% of the opinion that it's her choice and no one else's, I won't have sex with her. (This is for relationships, for one night stands I don't care.)

I learned this shit from a 100% "my body, my rules" feminist, who said she absolutely refuses to discuss abortion with her partners, and steadfastly refuses to have children or get her tubes tied. I learned I'd better fucking ask first and get that out of the way if I care.

>>For example, my dealbreaker is someone that wants to look through my phone or emails
>Untrustworthy feminist, confirmed.

Nah, fuck this. People get into others' private business, misinterpret something that was said, because they have NO context, it turns into a shitty fight, and just reinforces that there's no trust in the relationship. She can't look at my stuff, I won't look at hers, boom, the end.

>>17884795
>it's why I tell women before we have sex that I'd like to discuss the options regarding an abortion if she gets pregnant, and if she's 100% of the opinion that it's her choice and no one else's, I won't have sex with her.
I hope you get that in writing because it'll mean dick if she decides she wants to defy you

Also, men can be feminists

>>17884748
He doesn't though.

>>17884733
Uh fuck no. Men should have no right over a woman's body

>>17884806

Frankly I would probably support her getting an abortion. But I'd want to know and talk through where we are in the relationship and what our potential future is going to be. I don't need to get it in writing because I'm not as obsessed with it as OP is. I just want to have a rational conversation about it.

And yeah, I get that men can be feminists. I'm not a feminist, just a pragmatist.

>>17884816
Of course he does

>>17884821
No, he doesn't.

>>17884824
Yes huh

>>17884825
>It takes two to tango..unless I decide I fucked up and don't actually want a kid and then I can just legally absolve myself from having to pay child support because I feel like :^)

Your plan is retarded. Sorry not sorry.

>>17884789
Society currently is fine with abortion. Their views dont matter.

>woman decides to get an abortion when the father doesn't agree
>she's a selfish whore
>woman decides to go through with a pregnancy because she doesn't believe in abortion and the father doesn't want a kid
>she's a selfish whore

wew lads

>>17884828

Not even the guy you're replying to or the OP, but...

>It takes two to tango but I'm the only one that has any input into caring for a potential living thing
>Oh and don't mind if I spend that child support at my own discretion and keep you from seeing your kid :^)

>>17884828
When can a man choose not to pay child support? Men go to jail for not paying child support all the time.

Also, that has nothing to do with the point at hand - a woman making a unilateral decision about something that a man has as much right to decide is. As a partner to the circumstances and parent the man has rights even if he is not carrying the fetus. My plan would punish irresponsible behavior and possibly prevent action without consequence.

>>17884837
I don't necessarily agree with that "it takes two to tango" shit either, but he brought it up.

If your the male in this situation it's like owning 49% of a company and the other owner has 51%. You can give your input and try to persuade all you want but at the end of the day, you just don't have the final say. And you need to deal with it.

>>17884834
I don't see a contradiction here. Anytime a woman or man makes a life-altering decision about a child while deliberately ignoring the wishes of the other parent, they are being selfish.

>>17884840

Sure, you don't have the final say, but a rational, kind woman would at least take that input and persuasion into some kind of consideration. It is a huge, important decision where life literally hangs in the balance. (Both metaphorically and literally.)

>>17884846
>deliberately ignoring = not doing exactly what I demand regardless of how you feel about the situation

wew

>>17884850
The OP's gf didn't even have the discussion, she just went and did it. Stop being obtuse.

>>17884848
Yeah and I would say most women do take what the father might want into consideration but just because they come to the opposite choice doesn't mean they didn't care about his opinion at all.

>>17884855
In this example, she did not. Why are you discussing hypotheticals that have no bearing on this situation?

>>17884869
If you don't want to discuss hypotheticals then fuck off from entire conversation where we are discussing hypotheticals? I addressed the OP and now I am talking to other anons.

idk what to tell you

>>17884649
>>17884567
Abortion is a reality of modern civilization. If it were banned and cracked down upon to the extent it was not possible 99℅of the time then there would be a massive increase in crime, drug addicts, poverty... I mean have you ever researched the effects of Roe v Wade??? I'm conservative myself, voted for Trump, but this is simply an individual/medical right, your archaic ideals are causing you and your wife pain because you think there is something noble in it... Well I encourage you to go to high crime areas of a big city, go to orphanages/foster homes etc

Anyways.. forgive her, if you don't then rest assured you gave up what is most likely a very good woman for a completely irrelevant reason. And no you don't get any sympathy for believing what you do about abortion.

>>17884567
Dude, this situation is SO far past the point of anyone forgiving anyone. It's over. Next time, look for someone who's beliefs align with yours and isn't afraid to trust you. Good luck.

>>17884704
/Thread finally someone who lives in the real world. """Pro life""" leads to shit people being born to shit parents who don't want them, they're angry and they waste resources better spent on a child who has loved ones and some shot at a future that doesn't involve some feel good "slumdog millionaire" plot

>>17884821
That's just really retarded man, you should feel bad for thinking this way. If you want to have a child and want the final say as to whether it's born... Adopt lol, at least that way you can fix the problems that arise from the way you people think

>>17884887
>Raising someone else's child
>Believing a single man would be allowed to adopt
The man doesn't deserve the final say, he deserves rights and recompense of his rights as a parent are disregarded.

>>17884853
Thus she didn't "ignore" anything. She did what she felt was right with her own body. The level of stupidity evidenced by people like you is similar to that of someone that thinks that male masturbation is "wastefully spilling the seed" and is morally wrong.

Forgive her. First and last time though. If she did not know you, and you her, fully, there is no reason to develop scorn. She has been made a different person because of you. Raise this new child, as if it were your first, your last.

>>17884890
Legally he has no rights as a parent at the point where abortion is legal, nor should he. You want a kid after your woman gets an abortion? Go find another to agrees with this sort of thinking, it's really that simple. But don't expect this kind of irrationality from normal women.

I'll reiterate here.... On most subjects I am staunchly conservative, but the effects of this type of thinking are negative and it has no place in the modern world...

>>17884892
What was "right for her body" killed another human being and denied her partner his paternal rights. I see no problem with my thinking.

Either way, you should really stop calling people who disagree with you stupid. It does nothing for your argument and outs you as the kind of smug, self-obsessed liberal that pushed Trump into office. This from someone who usually votes left by the way.

>>17884885
>"""Pro life""" leads to shit people being born to shit parents who don't want them
Pro-abortion leads to the murder of babies.

Which do you prefer?

>>17884880
You ignore how slavery, rape, torture, and murder have all been a reality of someone's modern society. Doesn't excuse the action.
I don't think you understand what it feels like to have points you would never concede on.

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>>17884930
If it can't survive outside the womb, it's not murder. #dealwithit

>>17884959
Shit argument is shit.

>>17884930

I'd rather a kid doesn't come into existence than lead a completely shit life that's a different kind of torture where no one wants them.

It'd be swell and dandy if every kid got adopted and loved, but that's not in the cards.

Same goes for kids with severe genetic defects.

>>17884968
>the poor are better off dead
This is the most infuriating comment by murders. You have no value for life. Only your own comfort.

>>17884962
Same could be said about your parochial value system based on a work of fiction

>>17884959
Should an elderly person be killed since they can't survive on their own? Someone on a ventilator? A dialysis patient?

>>17884968
Shouldn't be a decision based on that. What did the baby do to deserve to die?

>>17884974

I didn't say "the poor," I mean the unloved and hopeless. A child rotting away in an orphanage because you are stubborn makes no fucking sense and will just raise a fuckup who probably goes on to create more fuckups.

>>17885001

What did the baby do to deserve to suffer most of its life? Its parents humped and abandoned it, so it gets to live the hard knock life and be unhappy?

I know there are some perfectly pleasant adoptions, but let's not pretend that every unwanted baby goes to a happy home with loving parents.

>>17885003
So instead of giving them a chance, you kill them? Fuck, you should be roaming the streets of ghettos shooting any little fucker you see.

>>17884996
How can something that hasn't been born be alive? If abortion is such a crime, how many kids have you adopted, anon? 0? Sit the fuck down then

>>17885009

Yeah, I kill "them," because they're not yet a "them." They're a bundle of cells and nothing more than a potential life. A kid sitting in a ghetto =/= a bundle of cells that can't survive outside of the womb, as the tripfag said.

>>17885015
Actually adopted 4 kids.

It may not be alive but it is living.

>>17885016
That's not what you said. You said you abort them because they have a chance of growing up "to live the hard knock life and be unhappy". That could describe a lot of kids' lives in ghettos, or really sick kids. So kill them before they have a chance?

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>>17885019

>>17885025
Hey, I didn't mention it until he called me out on it. But it has nothing to do with the argument but he made it part of the argument.

>>17885036
Sorry... "he" being "you".

>>17885036

I didn't call you out about it, it's another Pegasus post.

>>17885023
And yes. Absolutely, abort them. If you can look at your options and realize you are completely incapable of raising a child, because you do not have the financial ability to do so, do not bring them into this world and be a burden on taxpayers while struggling to give them the basics of life. A child is not a pet or something you birth to look cute or something.

If you can come to an agreement with a surrogate family BEFORE birth, that's a different story entirely, you're doing your part to protect your child. But if you can't afford to feed them or put in the effort to know they're going to live a good life? Abort.

>>17884567
So here's how I view it. Taking into account the emotional connection you have with your wife it will be hard to seperate from her.

But she kept something from you that's rather fucking huge. Imagine what else she's keeping from you. A very long process she kept hidden from you. And you weren't even aware of this, do you even know if it was your kid that she aborted?

Do you even know if it's your kid now?

To me for her to put that much doubt into a relationship without even going any deeper than that would be enough to end it. Not saying it would be difficult.

But there's even more to it than that.

>>17885036
1 - I don't believe you've adopted 4 children. Having 4 kids alone would make you a statistical anomaly, and all of them being adopted even more so.
2 - It is germane to the argument because you're expecting someone to take on a serious financial obligation that you're in no part willing to mitigate, all based on "muh morals"

>>17884704
>Abortion is someone's personal decision
it should have been his decision too.

>>17885056
Leaving for the long commute home, but...

1 - I can't prove that I adopted 4 kids but I did. And I don't know about a statistical anomaly since I had six siblings, by brothers have 3-4 kids each. My wife and I couldn't have kids so we adopted.

2 - I'm expecting people to take on financial obligations for something THEY did, and not kill a baby that is innocent in the whole scheme of things. I expect people to take care of their elderly parents, their disabled kids, their sick spouses because not doing so... allowing them to die... is no better than if you put a gun to their heads. Sorry it's going to cost you money. Life sucks sometimes.

Merry Christmas to you all. I'm out of here!

>>17885072

Then put a gun to their heads. Merry Christmas!

>>17884567
I think you're overreacting too much, over a quick exit decision she made at young age. I understand that it was wrong not to tell you, but it seriously surprises me that you would divorce a woman you love, a woman you have been with for so long, just because she didn't want a child being so young.

Also, how does her being pregnant make this any worse? There isn't any correlation to this. You might aswell be happy now that you actually know about her being pregnant and you can talk to her about it.

Do a cost benefit analysis. What do you expect to gain from staying in the relationship? What do you expect to lose? What do you expect to gain from leaving her? What do you expect to lose.

Do your best to quantify it. The hard decision becomes simple if you are confident in the steps that got you there.

I'm sorry you're having a difficult time in your life, OP. I hope you find a way to enjoy the holidays despite it.

>>17884944
The difference here is that abortion cuts down on those whereas they all compound each other.

Different anon here, look I'm not rying to convince you to support abortion. My girlfriend and I can't stand the thought of it and only would in severe corcumstances.

She's your wife man. Wives are meant to support their husbands and husbands are meant to protect their wives.as long as you two are on the same page now that's what matters. You can't do anything to change the past.

let there be no mistake, fetuses are human.
the fact that someone who kills a pregnant woman get double homicide charges, and that women get depressed after a miscarriage agrees with this.
the fact of the matter is that killing the unwanted or genetically undesirable babies makes life for humanity as a whole better, that is why it is justifiable.
anyone who claims that they are the aren't human is just to afraid to admit support of utilitarianism.
in my opinion the people who claim they are the deciders in whether this lump of cells is human are not are complete psychopaths.

>>17884880

Are you seriously suggesting his child would have been a criminal and drug addict just because they were in college? She literally murdered his child

Can you trust her not to do it again?

>>17884753
>if a man doesn't say he wouldn't want his child to be murdered in the womb, it's bad communication
>if a woman doesn't talk about having an abortion to terminate her partner's offspring it's not bad communication - it's just none of his business

:^)

>>17885202
It is the right thing to do, OP imagine your shit life if you had to work to take care of a baby in college. Or if you had to drop out of college. Or you were a beta and made your parents take care of the baby. The only thing that is unfortunate is that your girlfriend did not discuss it with you. I think though, you should forgive her and make new babies if you see fit.

>>17885173
>in my opinion the people who claim they are the deciders in whether this lump of cells is human are not are complete psychopaths
>let there be no mistake, fetuses are human.

I'm actually impressed with how deep into the rabbit hole you've gone. I hope you can find your way out again, friend.

>>17885244

He probably means "whether they are persons".

>>17885249
I think the point was that he inadvertently called himself a complete psychopath.

>>17884744
Why the fuck would that be unreasonable to ask?

Both the man and woman willingly had sex.

Both the man and womans genetic code came together and is forming a human.

Only the woman gets to make the decision about what happens with my potential child because humans evolved to require her body grow the child? Fuck that.

Its not like the father has a choice where the baby grows. It isn't HER child, it's OUR child. It's half my fucking creation. She gets to just flush it away for literally any reason she wants? Fuck that. You white knight cuck. Who the fuck really thinks the man should have no say in a child they may want? The only time I can see it being 100% in the womans hands is if the father passed away, is in prison, was a rapist, or if the birth would endanger her life. I think abortion should be legal everywhere, but the woman shouldn't just get to end OUR creation because she's worried it'll affect her modeling career or what the fuck ever.

It's mentality like this that makes men afraid to be emotional and open up to loving the world. Why love a concept if a woman has 100% decision to kill it and erase it from the world.

>>17885244
>>17885258
nah, having a different opinion on whether fetuses are human is fine, as long as it is one solid unchanging opinion.
it gets fucked up when you say "this fetus isn't human, so i can kill it" but then say "this fetus is wanted, so if it gets miscarried it's a tragedy".

on an objective level though, fetuses are indeed human AND a clump of cells.
ALL humans are, just like every other piece of biological life.

>>17885266
>Only the woman gets to make the decision about what happens with my potential child because humans evolved to require her body grow the child? Fuck that.

lmao

this post is gold

>>17885275
Wow great argument. You really convinced me to see things your way with all those hot counterpoints.

>>17885287
I loved your post
Take the compliment retard lmao

>>17885292
Oh, I thought you were the other guy I disagreed and were just laighing because you couldn't argue back. My bad

>>17885302
I am the other guy. I can't argue back. Or rather, I can't muster a fuck to give. Your post is amusing, that's all

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>>17884744
>>17884816
>>17884818
Fuck this. If I ever get a woman pregnant and she wants to keep it and force me to pay child support then I'm going to exercise my natural right to punch her as hard as I can in the belly. She's not shitting out any kids unless my fist consents.

Why is everyone defending her? I know people fuck up but the baby was his as much as hers, an abortion is a choice both parents should have.

Either way OP counseling is definitely the best option right now, but she needs to acknowledge the massive fuck up of hiding this from you so you can have a form of closure.

Fuck off you unwashed asshole

>>17884700
You also can't force him to stick around you fucking neck beard cuck #feminist

>>17884744
He didn't even know that she got the abortion that seems kind of fucked

>>17884795
>Discusses abortion at first sexual encounter with woman
Wow you must be fun at parties anon
I bet you also ask people if they're insured and to see their drivers licenses every time someone offers you a ride


>>17885173
This is where I stand. Op, if I was in this position I would most likely divorce her if the new child wasn't in the picture. If the new child is in the picture I would have to think about this a lot more. I don't know if I could forgive what she had done- and maybe not be happy in the relationship as a result. This is literally the plot of the movie Nocturnal Animals. On the other hand there is the welfare of the kid.

I honestly cannot see eye to eye with these other anons that are saying it wasn't a big deal.

Side note: lmao at people saying she wasn't mature at 21 but is suddenly mature at 27. You would need to know more than just age to make that claim. There are plenty of mature 21 year olds and plenty of immature 27 year olds.

>>17885230
>>17885244
>>17885275
>Casualties of the "me" generation
>#valuingmoneyandselfiesoverlife

>>17884831
lol that's why it's bad to criticize her. the cards are stacked against someone who feels the way of the op is the point

>>17885416
>looking out for #1 is bad

look at this cuck

>>17885416
lol, I'm curious. Did you bother to read the posts you quoted, or did you just click three at random? I'm interested in how you think your criticism applies to each one if you actually read them.

I'm not a fan of abortion either. I think it's fucked, and I think people who normalize it are screwing up society in a big way.

That being said, it's clear she feels differently about it now than when it happened, or else she wouldn't tell you. So perhaps you've influenced her to where now she also thinks abortion is fucked up. IF this is the case, that means she used to be someone she has come to hate. That's a very tough thing, and punishment enough imo.

If she acts like it wasn't a big deal, then maybe she hasn't changed, and it's clear you have a morality clash, but if it's obvious that it eats her up, then you've influenced her, and she's not the same as she was before.

Forget the abortion. The fact is she didn't tell you. You had every right to know and she kept it from you. You obviously love this woman so the question is; why did she do it?

>Was she scared of what you would say/do?
Forgive her and stay
>Was it an action motivated by financial concern? Inconvenient to her? Was she not "ready"?

The fact that she aborted does not matter. What's done is done plus you both have different opinions about it, and it's an unresolved ethical issue atm.

But what does matter is if she did it for selfish reasons. If it was financial then why didn't she ask you first? Aren't relationships about trust?

It's a red flag and you should leave in my opinion did it for petty reasons. Don't get me wrong this isn't about abortion. This is the motive behind the action.

Finally, forgive her. You will never ever find out what your child would have been if he had been born. No use thinking about it. It's happened to millions of men no doubt. Just sit and think what type of person she is and act accordingly. Revenge and bitterness will not unabort your child.

>>17885419
>>17885431
>Triggered numales in the wild

>>17884761
>Its because of the incompatibility.
You think it's likely that she'll have another abortion or something in the future? Or is the "she doesn't think abortions area always wrong" the incompatibility? Because in that case it is something you should have known for a long time

>>17884839
>as much right
Because he will also have to spend 9 months with it and possibly lose their job if it's one that can't just be left for a month or two around the time to give birth? Be real, it's not the same at all. Women have all the say because that's how it should be

>>17884567
The only thing she did wrong was that she married an idiot.

You should apologize for knocking her up and not realizing how hard it was for her. Women don't do abortion for fun. And it's not only on her, take responsibility.

>>17885274
>this fetus is wanted, so if it gets miscarried it's a tragedy
There are tragedies that aren't caused by someone's death. It's a tragedy because it destroys the woman who was pregnant emotionally. I know it's a difficult concept but try to consider it.

>>17885459
What are these questions even... You accidentally get pregnant while you're a student, are you supposed to drop out because of that or what?

>>17885683
And be underpaid during the rest of their lives.

>>17885173
>let there be no mistake, fetuses are human.
Nice baseless affirmation.

>>17885703
>And be underpaid during the rest of their lives.
Source to back up the claim please.

>>17885706
if it isn't human than what the fuck is it?
humans are only clumps of cells, formed by atoms, behaving in a way that completely aligns with how they would always behave given the same circumstances.

>>17885710
https://www.oecd.org/gender/data/genderwagegap.htm
In case you're genuinely interested, google gender pay gap, there's plenty of research on this.

>>17885801
>https://www.oecd.org/gender/data/genderwagegap.htm
What a shit source. Try something reputable next time. Like female logic, the gender wage gap is a myth perpetuated by butthurt feminists who want to work less than their male counterparts and make just as much.

>>17885809
Do you have a better source?
Oh, you don't, you just like talking out of your ass.
You forgot to talk crap about my spelling, that's another thing that your kind likes to spit out when they're wrong.

>>17884733
>The law needs to be changed to give men rights here, too.


Not really
There's no moral way to give men rights on this topic
When it comes to reproduction men have very little say just out of the nature of things

>>17885788
If your definition of human is "clump of cella formed by atoms" then literally every living thing is a human
A fetus isn't a human just like a tadpole isn't a frog and an acorn isn't a tree
It'll be if you give it time and the right conditions
But it isn't yet

>>17885821
Here's an article describing specifically why you're wrong...written by a woman
http://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#43a7fe5d4766
Here's a good summation:

"The official Bureau of Labor Department statistics show that the median earnings of full-time female workers is 77 percent of the median earnings of full-time male workers. But that is very different than “77 cents on the dollar for doing the same work as men.” The latter gives the impression that a man and a woman standing next to each other doing the same job for the same number of hours get paid different salaries. That’s not at all the case. “Full time” officially means 35 hours, but men work more hours than women. That’s the first problem: We could be comparing men working 40 hours to women working 35."

>>17885801
Hun, you're wrong. Men have the best AND the worst jobs, going from sewer dweller, miner etc to CEO and the likes.

Women are in the middle of those jobs. Not the shittiest, not the best.

You are FAR BETTER than men at some stuff, and you should cherish it and develop it further, rather than saying "its sexist to say that women make for better nurses!" because women are for one better at taking care of people, just like men take greater financial risks. The list goes on, and there is no equality, only stuff you're better and worse at. Men need you, and you need men.

Very welcome to spread feminism in countries that really need it, though. Instead of victimizing yourself on a Taiwaneese embrodiment caligraphy board.

>>17885837
Of course there are. Much like consent laws that are coming into focus for men where signed contracts are pretty much needed to have casual sex, there should be a clause that acknowledges that should the female defy the man's wishes on the pregnancy and go through with it, she assumes all responsibility for the child should it be born - financially and otherwise. If she aborts and the man wants the child, he should be allow to sue for pain and suffering and the withholding of an heir.

>>17885862
>says female logic is a myth
>post an article that agrees with his opinion
>implies it's credible because it was written by a woman

fucking KEK i love retards like this

>>17885848
>a tadpole isn't a frog and an acorn isn't a tree

they are both members of their respective species.
both a white oak and it's acorns are members of the species Quercus Alba,
just like a fetus and an adult are member of the species Homo Sapiens.
there is nothing truly special about adult humans that separates them distinctly from an infant.

>>17885862
I jist disappeared laughing, cause some random idiot on the internet says OECD is wrong, Forbes has the truth. Cannot argue with Hearst. lol

>>17885863
How is your comment to relevant to what I wrote?
Note that my original point was: it's not cool to expect a student to keep their baby. (I mean they should know better how to prevent pregnancy, but still.) They're basically fucked for the rest of their lived if they cannot continue with school.

>>17885884
I just figured your distorted view of the world would be better challenged through hearing it from someone of the supposed oppressed sex. The pay gap is a false narrative the same as the claim that people are fat because of "muh genetics". You are simply failing to account for reality.

>>17885932
You're not going to win someone over who brought facts to the table with an appeal to authority, retard

seriously lmao this lack of self awareness

>>17885937
>facts
Your statistic means nothing as it does not account for the variables as to why women make less. Hint, it's not due to discrimination. Looking forward to the next world war when people like you get wrecked.

>>17885923
It is cool to expect people to be held accountable for their poor decision-making, especially if the latter means the murder of a child. Sorry their life is slightly less convenient, but them's the breaks.

>>17885947
>latter
*alternative

>>17885947
"murder of a child"
give us a break and settle down in poland

>>17885693
>And it's not only on her, take responsibility.
Women have all the rights, they get all the responsibility. Get fucked.

>>17885956
Enjoy your muslim overlords

>>17884602

>murder a child
>if you can't handle me at my worst xD

kys

>>17885837

Financial abortion should be a thing. One way to swing some equality back into a relationship

Forgive your wife, this fucking god awful culture has taught her that you don't have any rights to your own fucking kid. Its legitimately not her fault since shes been raised to believe she doesn't need your approval on anything involving kids. If you wife really is sorry about it then why the fuck can you hold it against her?

Also she should go to church and repent.

>>17884704
>I would say the best thing you could do is reconsider your stance that you claim you "won't yield on.
Don't listen to this cunt, that fucking baby was just as much yours as it was hers.

>>17885678
I can't support abortion in any way. And supporting my wife feels as though Im contradicting the values I hold. There's disagreeing about a topic, then theres acting in a disagreeable manner on said topic. I can't accept it. I just can't.
>>17885084
If she is pregnant, it makes it harder to walk away from the marriage. I don't want to create a broken family. And you are simplifying abortion too much.
>>17885055
I do not doubt if my wife has been faithful. Having 100% certainty wouldn't change the way I feel about the abortion itself.

>>17884567
I'm probably far more conservative ideologically speaking, but I absolutely would forgive her. She was scared and probably didn't share the same values regarding abortion.

Get over it if it was that big of a deal you should have pulled out dummy. Congrats on becoming a dad lol.

>>17886118
Abortion isnt about my rights, its about the childs.

>>17885703
>What are these questions even... You accidentally get pregnant while you're a student, are you supposed to drop out because of that or what?

you didn't even try to understand me. The fact is she didn't tell him. Therefore OP has every right to leave. And should.

>>17886133
>Abortion isnt about my rights, its about the childs.
The child has no rights until its cognitive and rational, around 16 imo.

>>17884567
Drop her.
If you guys were together and she didn't even consult you about aborting the child, she honestly doesn't respect your opinion in the first place.

>But her body her
True, but if I want to get a full-body Pepe tattoo, it'd be common courtesy to at least bring it up with the wife before doing it.

You'll only regret it later if you stay with her. Divorce and don't look back.

>>17884744
Right to not pay child support if they ditch the mother and child. It's literally the most "fair" you can get for men on the abortion debate but women and white knights vehemently oppose it.

>>17886582
It's not fair to the kid or the taxpayers who would have to pick up the slack of the deadbeat dad. You're literally arguing for you to have to pay more to raise other guys kids because they decided they shouldn't have to pay for their own spawn to live. If that isn't cucked I don't know what the fuck is

>>17886543
This is why abortion is inhumane

>>17886596
The government shouldn't be subsidizing it either.

I'm arguing that the safety net should be removed entirely. Nobody said childrearing should have easy-outs. If abortion is going to be legal, there's literally no reason to also have safety nets for women that have children they cannot afford.

>>17886605
Get rid of all the impediments imposed on people trying to get abortions and we'll have a deal

But that's never going to happen either

>>17886610
I'd actually be completely fine with that. No-questions-asked hassle free abortions with the abolition of child support and welfare.

In fact, I bet if that was brought up in a political forum, you'd have more people against abortion agree to those terms than people for it.

>>17884567
The answer is always "cheese it" desu
Run from your whore of a wife

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>>17884567
>gf had an abortion 2 or 3 years before we met
>told me after we'd been dating for a few months
>didnt give a fuck then and dont give a fuck now
Get over it OP.

>>17884567
>She didnt tell me for several excuses she gave and said that at the time she didnt know how anti abortion I was.
If she didnt know this, she wouldnt have hid it from you all those years, don't you think?
If shes pregnant, forgive, if not gtfo man

>>17884567
You both graduated and you love each other. If you're both ready for a child, it's a beautiful thing and I hope it goes smoothly.

I'm not going to lecture you about my views on abortion being that her life/health/quality of life/mental health>potential life and how much I probably disagree with you but I do think that you should put this behind you and move on WITH her.

Neither of you were careful or responsible the first time and abortion is a tragic thing but please don't throw away what you have now over a mistake that you both made years ago.

Pregnant or not, she's your wife and your life sounds pretty sweet right now. You're at a good place together and if I knew you, I'd be happy for you and what you have.

Abortions are tragic and it must've been very difficult for her. If you love her, don't make her feel even more guilty than she does right now. Forgive and cherish her and what's to come for the two of you, possibly three. It's different now and if she is pregnant I hope it's a smooth and healthy pregnancy.

Appreciate what you have. You've achieved so much together and you're voicing your doubts on a website full of teenagers, trolls and gamers.

>>17886705
>she wouldnt have hid it
It's not like this is a daily discussion subject.

It was startling to learn of all the miscarriages in my family when my sister wound up a miscarriage. It was mostly an unknown, unannounced thing by most of my relatives till my sister was bawling her eyes out about it for a week. Something that didn't become a kid isn't some celebratory event to be talked about years to come.

>>17886898
She literally did not tell OP she was pregnant when they were together in college and that she was and did abort their child, this isn't the same as her getting an abortion and not telling uncle Bob and grandma Susan at brunch

>>17885865
I agree with the having no financial responsibility to a child you don't want but forcing someone to have a baby for 9 months and giving birth and bringing a kid into the world out of fear of being sued seems a bit much

>>17886597
>This is why abortion is inhumane
"Human rights" are fucking fluffy and stupid, the person with the spear and the house decides what your rights are.

>>17884828
>It takes two to tango..unless I decide I fucked up and don't actually want a kid and then I can just legally absolve myself from having to pay child support because I feel like :^)
Bitch what fucking fantasy land do you live in? If you're not getting paid child support you're just too much of a pussy to put him in jail.

>>17886928
>I agree with the having no financial responsibility to a child you don't want but forcing someone to have a baby for 9 months and giving birth and bringing a kid into the world out of fear of being sued seems a bit much
>You are FORCED to not wear protection and get came inside

>>17887430
>Bitch what fucking fantasy land do you live in? If you're not getting paid child support you're just too much of a pussy to put him in jail.

Try again with reading comprehension this time, shithead. We were talking about if hypothetically, "financial abortions" became a thing.

>>17884567
there are only two reasons she would abort and not tell OP

1. she knew or suspected OP's view on abortion and that he would fight her and she wasn't ready to be a mother or not sure where the relationship was going and did not want a child at that point of her life

2. more likely and one of the number one reasons for abortion is the child was not OP's. many women in relationships that become pregnant by another man will terminate if they want to stay with their relationship

Stay with her but treat her very badly for a few years as punishment.

>>17887442
>We were talking about if hypothetically, "financial abortions" became a thing.
desu we should just deport all third worlders and give blacks their own ethnostate then make abortion illegal in all other states but that one.

I didnt expect this thread to still be here. I talked with my wife a bit. She doesnt get it. Id rant now but Im tired from staying up all night from a project. Maybe ill do it when I come back.

>>17885900
if you enjoy puzzle games, I would recommend The Talos Principle.

>>17885801
That's not a real source. It just says "the wage gap is this much in those countries" and the institution making the claim isn't even specifically reputable. Please link a scientific article that clearly states its methods and results

>>17887431
>You are FORCED to not wear protection and get came inside
Retards still think there's such thing as a never-failing method of protection

>>17886125
>And supporting my wife feels as though Im contradicting the values I hold.
Unless you think she's likely to get an abortion somewhere in the future, this is silly.

>>17886619
Except that's not equivalent to what happened.

She got knocked up in their relationship, not before they even met. She decided to have an abortion because she knew he would leave her, let's be honest. Even though the right to have an abortion is her decision, it was at a bare minimum incredibly shitty to hide something like that. Even pro choice people will generally agree with that.

>>17888218
I'm pro-choice and I don't necessarily agree it was shitty. He said it was when they were dating. We don't know how invested either of them were in each other at the point it happened. If you were dating a guy for a few months and he knocked you up I don't see the argument for a) keeping the baby or b) even telling him in the first place if you know there's no way you want to keep the baby and you're not even sure if the relationship is going to last. Basically even though you've fucked you are pretty much still strangers at that point.

She was a scared young woman, who had very valid concerns about the impact a baby would have had in her life and made the best choice she thought she could make the time. She will carry the guilt over what she did forever. There's no such a thing as having an abortion for fun, or forgetting about it and doing it again.
At the time, she felt like you wouldn't have supported her had she had the baby. She probably thought you'd leave. And what she tried to avoid, came back to haunt her.

OP needs to recognize his wife meant to ill towards him, she did the best she thought she could, even if it was a horrible thing.

As long as he understands this, he has the right to feel however he feels about it. Maybe the knowledge of this fact will never allow the relationship to be the same. Holding on for kids isn't worth it, you'll only harm their psych growing up with parents who can't stand each other.

Take a break, OP, take time for yourself, leave the house for a wek or so, to examine how you feel. This is the only advice you should take until you understand for sure what's in your head and your heart.

>>17884567
>The catch here is my wife had an abortion with our child when we were in junior year of college.
Nigger do you know how much a child requires in money,care,attention,time,love etc.
You should be thankful that she did not have a child at FUCKING JUNIOR YEAR IN COLLEGE (How old were you 19/20?)
Had you two had a child then you would have had to quit college and get a job so you can have money to raise your child,and in this day and age it is hard to get a job WITH a diploma,let alone without one.
*Now this row of text will be based on a presumption,but...Seeing as how you're quite conservative I'm going to jump to the conclusion that your parents are too.And if that is true i seriously doubt that they would have been supportive of having a child at the fine age of 19-22 or however you're old (If I am wrong about this conclusion ignore this row of text)*
A Child is not a job you can half-ass around (or you can and end up raising a fucking disgrace that,chances are,will hate you),and with the economy as is in these times,is NOT a smart idea to have had when you were in Junior year in FUCKING COLLEGE.
Here's a thing you SHOULD do.
1)Not ask Anonymous strangers on a board primarily visited by jaded outcasts/edgy teens/literal mentally damaged people
2)Talk to your wife,tell her about your feelings and how she managed to hurt you
3)Remember that to have a child both parents must consent.Raising a child while knowing that the other parent did NOT want it is not a smart idea (hell it's fucking retarded).
And from what I have gathered you seem to be indifferent towards having a child,but are pissy because you're anti-abortion.Being anti-abortion is no ground to have/keep a child.
Think hard before you decide to have a fucking child,because once you do,there is no going back.
That is,unless you wanna be a dead-beat dad or a runaway father (And I doubt you want to)

>>17888201
How is it silly. If you found out your spouse used to rape kids when you first met them would you just let it go as long as they didnt do it again.

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>>17888196
It's called not having sex and it's worked well for me.

>>17888236
>He said it was when they were dating. We don't know how invested either of them were in each other at the point it happened.

This is her hiding a dealbreaker from a guy because she knew he would dump her. She waited until marriage to tell him, this is not something you can just pretend is normal. Waiting a bit I could understand, when you guys are official and serious and long term. But they've been married for four years now, plus however long it was that they were dating.

I would bet money the only reason she told him is because she thought he was at a point he would no longer leave her over it.

>>17888196
Technically there always has been and it's called abstinence. The issue is when people don't bother educate about sex because the ONLY push abstinence. When in doubt, close that trout.

Of course, even on /adv/ that option gets insta-dismissed. Oh, well.

>>17889275
Also this. She wasn't just scared, she was intentionally hiding major shit from him and only felt okay to bring it up now because she's secure in a married relationship with a dude that makes some money. Fuck her.

>>17889240
>used to rape kids
It's different because>>17886125
>There's disagreeing about a topic, then theres acting in a disagreeable manner on said topic
Meaning, you cannot expect her to have the exact same views as you, and her making that decision when you weren't married (and probably weren't even dating for that long) is something you disagree with, but also something you should be able to live with. However, now that you're married and she knows just how much anti-abortion you are, doing so in the future would be grossly insensitive, if not even malicious.

>>17889576
You didn't point out a difference.

>>17889600
In one case there are two possible valid opinions, and in the other not.

>>17889624
Explain further

>>17889634
You can be pro-choice or pro-life depending on your definition of person, and both are valid opinions. If you hold one of the two, you might be unwilling to change it under any circumstances, and that is understandable. However, raping a kid is not acceptable under any moral code that allows you to live in a society. If you have done it, either you knew it was immoral at the time, you need psychological help, or your true calling is to live alone in the forest.

>>17884567
>getting married
Found your problem.

Youre well and truly fucked. If you divorce her youre fucked because the courts will gut you and youll have to pay child support. If you dont, youre married to a woman that killed your kid and doesnt respect you and could still at some point leave and take your kid and half of everything youve ever worked for. Good luck

>>17889780
>both are valid opinions
This is where we disagree. I see abortion as a form of murder.

>>17889275
>This is her hiding a dealbreaker from a guy because she knew he would dump her.
This is your fantasy. We don't know the motivations for why she didn't tell him.

>>17884567
Yes you ugly fucks deserve eachother.

>>17884567

She HAD to ask for your permission, because he was your child too..

Basically, your wife lied to you and once a liar always a liar. Who knows what else she has been hiding from you.

You don't have to divorce her, but be really careful with her (and with your belongings)

>>17884602

>forgive your wife about murdering your kid without telling you.

>>17889856
And she doesn't (or at least didn't) consider fetuses to be humans. She isn't someone who thinks it's ok to murder, she isn't someone who would murder knowing it's a bad thing to make her life easier either, and now that she's with you she will also avoid things you consider murder. If that's not good enough for you, I suggest you should be more open to different opinions

>>17889912
Just because you dont think something is murder doesnt change the fact that it is and that doing it means that you have killed a child. Thats not just an opinion.

>>17889914
A fetus is not a child though.

>>17889962
Not that anon, but do any legalfags know at what point someone would be charged with double homicide if they killed a pregnant woman? What's the precedent? Two days, two weeks, two months? I'd find it interesting if it conflicted with the definition of a "child" when it comes to abortion.

>>17889962
Im sure you believe that. Doesnt change the fact thats its murder.

If you were so traditional, WHY DID YOU IMPREGNATE HER OUTSIDE OF WEDLOCK?

Did you think it was a good idea to have unprotected sex then, mr. oh-so-conservative?

The fucking hypocrisy of you /pol/ smoking retards astound me to no end, and I'M CONSERVATIVE. Her father should've beat your sorry ass.

>>17889914
You're way beyond not changing your position on things. You completely refuse to even acknowledge the possibility of a different opinion. I still think you shouldn't divorce her over something like that, but I personally would prefer if you did, simply because if you were to raise children they would likely also be insufferable about their views

>>17890056
Would you be open to the opinion that rape isn't wrong.

>>17890102
No, and I already explained why. It is simply incompatible with living in a society.

By the way, if you are this adamant on those things and you knew she didn't see abortion as murder, why did you marry her in the first place?

>>17890125
How it's murder not incompatible?

>>17890207
Are you fucking retarded? Thinking that fetuses aren't persons is the thing that's not incompatible. Even triggered SJWs aren't as closed-minded as you

>>17890422
I'm sure you don't think it's murder. Doesn't change that it is.

Killing your baby without telling you is pretty unforgivable in my opinion. She didn't even respect you enough to discuss it with you or ask your opinion. Do you really want to be with someone who makes HUGE decisions about your life without your knowledge, advice, or concent? Fuck, dude.

>>17885009
If you really love your child, you would give them the best life that you could provide them instead of throwing them out in the jungle. Be honest with yourself, you don't give a fuck about the child, you just care about yourself. Would want your parents to do the same to you?

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lol OP, don't have any advice for you but a marriage with a woman like that is gonna be a ride. there is no excuse, and you know it. pic is you in 10 years.

>>17889965
it's not even considered a proper pregnancy before two weeks. only 50% of embryos survive the first trimester!
google it, most women don't even know they're pregnant in the first month, you don't even realize you had a miscarriage in a lot of cases.

lol at the responses here. fuck everyone who says he doesn't deserve to know about the abortion. how can you trust her at all now op? I even think she's ok for getting the abortion, but I also think he deserves to know. that's just being reasonable.

>>17889861
>We don't know the motivations for why she didn't tell him.
Please. She knew it was extremely important to him, and we know she waited over 4 years to tell him. I'm working with what's reasonable, and I'm not seeing any other reasonable suggestions why she would actively hide something like this from him.

>>17890567
Didn't answer my question

>>17884567
>should I forgive
yes
>morals of the action
not even touching that

however, not giving you a choice at all, and not telling you beforehand, and not even telling afterwards until years had passed, that's some really unkind shit

>>17888236
it doesn't matter what the relationship was

>>17884567
>having kids in college
You are the irresponsible one for opposing the abortion.

Get a grip. Her body, her choice. Stop being such a narcissistic faggot and try to understand things her perspective.

>>17884567
yeah forgive her.

everyone makes mistakes. especially when in collage.
dumping her is really harsh. you can just talk to her about it. she probably didnt tell you because she didnt know if she would stay with you or what kinda guy you were.

it sounds like she didnt know how anti abortion you are

and remember there is a lot further you can fall. dont throw away your life for something this small.

you really will regret it

>>17891080
Fuck you. It was his child she murdered and didn't tell him about.

>>17884909
its not ANOTHER FUCKING HUMAN BEING YOU DIMWIT IT WAS A FUCKING FETUS. God..

This thread is so fucking stupid. You selfish conservative cunt OP, leave her so she can find someone better.

Just saying, but arguing over abortion won't bring this speficic baby back and it won't help OP either.
Having an opinion with and without experience on the matter are very different things. Having a very personal experience with the issue might entirely change a person's perpective. So quit arguing right and wrong, morality and what not unless you have been in OP's shoes.

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>>17892054
This.

She knows your beliefs now. You've seen her at her worst. What is HER opinion now? Today? Does she regret it? If so, why? Because it hurt you, or because it hurt her, you and your marriage? That's an important distinction.

For my part, I'm a traditionalist- I expect my wife to adhere to my beliefs for the most part. It's a partnership, after all. But, then again, I didn't marry a murderer, and made sure we were on the same page before I thought about marrying her.

Still, you can't unfuck a pregnant woman or unsay harsh words. You'll have to decide what happens. Secular laws are mostly on her side- you have little agency under secular law; however, morally, you have the high ground, and you took on the mantle of husband. It's probably time to act like it. Taking a moral stand is fine. Forgiveness is good if she's repented and if abortion is forever off the table now. Has she grown into a moral wife who keeps the marriage sacred and your best interest as a family in mind at all times?
If so, she's worth keeping, IMO, but ultimately, you'll have to make that decision, too.

Lots of women end up divorced because they're given a free hand to rule the marriage. That's a man's job, and what we're best at.

>>17892051
Theres nothing small about an abortion

You should break up with her op. There's no way a relationship could ever work between a rational person, and a fetus-worshiping-fanatic.
Trying to make things work is futile. One day you'll see her eating a hotdog, and as ketchup drips down on her blouse, your warped brain will imaging she's eating a fetus, and you'll flip-out and they'll have to institutionalize you.
Don't put yourself in that position op, go meet some fellow fetus lover and find true happiness protesting together, and sharing your feels about eggs and sperms.

>>17892077
Do you know why the Jews were put into concentration camps? Do you know why they were treated the way they were?

People were brainwashed into believing that the Jews were the cause of everyone's hardships. In fact you still see that on a few boards today.

What am I getting at? You dehumanize a a particular category of human being and it doesn't really matter so much as to what is done to them. You think Germans cared about the Jews? Most saw it as Jews getting their just deserves.

When you devalue a fetus - a human being, murder doesn't seem all that bad.

You have been brainwashed into thinking that murdering a human being in the womb can ever be justified.

>A fetus is not a human being
Let me ask you a question.

What is a fetus?

I dunno OP..this is a pretty controversial thing as of late. It was wrong for her to not talk to you about it. But let's say she did and she DID want the abortion. What're you gonna do lol, force her to have a baby?
If it was me in her shoes I'd go through with it. You're in college for God's sake, why would you fuck up your lives before they even truly begun. Children are expensive as fuck and as far as
I can guess you haven't paid for your college stuff yet? Everyone's arguing that women have 100% rights to their own body and I agree, however it should still be discussed with the other adult in involved. But like I said before if she doesn't see herself ready for children now(or ever?) what can you really do? You can't force someone to have a kid, that's just fucking crazy lol. I'm surprised some of these anons want kids so bad. They're a lot of fucking work.

>>17892618
Its not about forcing someone to have a kid. Its about murdering a child.

>>17892631
It's not a child. It's a thing. A fucking extension of her being. It could eventually become a child, but it wasn't.

Jesus Christ, you fuckers sounds like Muslims, which you probably are.

>>17892696
Just excuses for murder

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>>17892726
>muh murder
You guys are impossible to talk to. Maybe one day you'll reconsider your views, but this clearly not here and now.

>>17892730
>reconsider you views that everyone has right to life
Im not a murderer, so no.

A potential child, a potential baby that isn't at least a fetus is no child. It's not anyone's child. It's a lump of cells, part of a female body that may have turned into a child at some point.

You talk about principles, beliefs and values, but what you actually lack is knowledge of some basic biology facts.

why do prolife retards always misuse the word murder?

do you think your transparent attempt to impose your morals is actually going to give you any kind of credibility?

murder is, by definition, illegal killing. abortion is legal, therefore not murder.

>>17892832
Thanks for the laugh. Yes, if you use the legal definition of murder, the legality matters.

>>17892784
Lol
>basic biology facts
Its inside of her body, not part of it. If her immune system had the chance it would annihilate every single cell of the fetus. From the moment of conception the fetus is genetically unique from both parents, a combination of both of their DNA, the fetus is genetically distinct and their are various conditions where the mother regrcts the fetus based on immune response. Don't fucking try to use science to justify your point of view. Get fucked.

regardless of your personal views on abortion, do none of the other pro choice people have a problem with her hiding this? its clearly an intentional omission to hide information which basically anyone in a relationship would like to know. I'm pro choice and still think this is completely fucked

>>17892851
yes. the only distinction between "murdered" and "killed" is if it was legal or not. there is no "other definition" except the one you made up. everyone knows what you're doing and I just explained why it isn't effective.

the laugh is you not realizing you fucking retarded you are

>>17892860
I don't have a problem with it and I explained here >>17888236

>>17892851
abortion isn't murder anywhere except in the minds of pro-life fanatics and some muslim countries i guess.

all it does is convey how detached from reality you are

>>17892862
>the only distinction between "murdered" and "killed" is if it was legal or not
Keep the laughs coming. You dont even know the difference between when a human kills something vs some natural disaster.

>>17892891
Obviously I'm talking about in the context of one person killing another.

Keep the idiocy coming.

>>17892878
You could apply this logic to anything you wanted to get away with. I expect no less for someone who advocates for murder though.

>>17892896
You couldn't actually.

For example, if you actually murdered someone, you could not apply this logic. Hope that helps.

>>17892892
Nah youre just flailing around without any idea of what you are talking about.

>>17892897
You just applied it to murder though. Please stay consistent.

>>17892898
Nah, you do a good job of describing what you're doing.

>>17892901
I am consistent. Abortion isn't murder. Please try again with reading comprehension next time.

>>17892904
>Abortion isn't murder
Yes, because you applied >>17892878 to it. Which you can do for anything you want to get away with.

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>>17884733
>he better keep her away from stair and coat hangers

>>17892913
Abortion isn't murder because I say so, it's not murder because it FACTUALLY is not.


Like what the fuck do you even think the word murder even means? Here's a hint: it's not killing that offends your christfag sensibilities

>>17892920
>christfag sensibilities
it's funny because abortion is even advocated in the bible lol

i really don't understand where this asshurt about abortion comes from

>>17892920
> it's not murder because it FACTUALLY is not.

>murder
>verb (used with object)
Law. to kill by an act constituting murder.

to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.

to spoil or mar by bad performance, representation, pronunciation, etc.

>>17892936
>Law. to kill by an act constituting murder.
which abortion does not.

glad you learned something today

>to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.
by what standard? your fee fees?

>>17892942
>picking the legal definition
Just someone desperate to get away with anything.

>>17892962
I invited you to tell me the standard you're using to determine
>slaughtered inhumanly or barbarously.

Looks like you don't have anything except what you would pull out of your bleeding ass. Just like I thought. So we're done.

>>17892975
>you don't have anything except what you would pull out of your bleeding ass
don't you see he can't. that would be abortion

>>17892975
No youve already proven you with to ignore definitions in your desperation. That was more than enough to prove my point.

>>17892985
>No youve already proven you with to ignore definitions in your desperation
>i-i have an a-answer I j-just don't want to say it because y-you're mean

classic

>>17892986
The conversation ended when you proved my point. Anything more is just pathetic.

>>17892989
You didn't prove your point, you exited the discourse after you just copy-pasted some shit from dictionary.com and then I called you on it.
>Anything more is just pathetic.
You admit this yet you continue to post. This is what I mean about prolifetards not having any self-awareness.

>>17892996
Nice strawman. This is why I called you pathetic.

>>17892999
Feel free any time to explain what "inhumanly or barbarously" means to you. Or just keep calling names without addressing the argument and continuing to post after you inadvertently called yourself pathetic. Either is amusing to me.

>ITT: cucks

>>17890422
aren't persons

Whew lad I wish Christianity didn't shit the bed with Protestantism. Seeing people go through the grieving process after miscarriages has sort of molded my opinion on the personhood of fetuses; I'll always veer on the side of a fetus being a person and its loss, naturally or otherwise, being an unfortunate occurrence than saying personhood depends on how much your mother wants you. What a shitty grey area.

I know by the note of the law they aren't, but your beliefs aren't dictated by legislation.

I find the increasing dehumanization of our offspring worrying, honestly, though that is an issue that stems beyond abortion itself or OP's issue.

>>17884959
>Semantics, the post
Not an argument. The strong man defines what words mean, and he is on deck right now. #dealwithit

>>17884959
>Unfertilized egg
Correct. It's a chicken egg, but not biologically a chicken.
>Acorn
Incorrect. It is, by all measures, an oak. Is it a tree? No, but the word "tree" is the term for an adult oak. It's less akin to saying a fetus isn't a person and more like saying a toddler isn't a man.
>Silkworm
Are you retarded? A dress is so far removed from determining the status of a silkworm that it's laughable. The you could consider a silkworm in its cocoon to be either a moth or a larva, but it's still a silkworm (or bombyx mori) all the while. That image is like showing a man with some wood and saying "THIS IS NOT A CABIN".
>Egg and sperm
You are correct! Didn't see that coming from the rest of my post, perhaps.
But only because that's not a picture of a zygote. It takes several hours after the introduction of the sperm to the egg before the two have successfully created a zygote with the full genetic requirements to be a unique human and not haploid cells. At which point, yes, it's a human.

>>17884567
she doesnt give a shit about your opinion, she just doesnt want to be embarassed by having a pregnancy and doesnt feel ready yet. (im a woman)

>>17893572
It's their child, though. Talking through it and hitting a disagreement I can at least kind of see. Doing it without telling him is relationship-ending material. I'd honestly rather get cucked than have my kid aborted behind my back.

>>17893382
>personhood depends on how much your mother wants you.
It does not. It depends on whether your brain is developed enough to allow thought. People can lament the loss of something that would have been a person given some time, that doesn't mean they thought it was a person. People grieve when they are sad - this does not imply a death happened.

Of course, you consider them persons, and that is a perfectly reasonable belief. Just stop trying to insist that everyone must agree with you.

>>17893684
The human brain is developed to the point of natal thought capacity around two months before birth. The physical components of the brain responsible can be present at 24 weeks.

Granted, abortions don't typically happen that late.
But birth alone, even by your presented litmus for personhood, is an insufficient metric.

>>17893886
Literally no law allows abortion right up till childbirth. It's always forbidden in the last trimester, yet alone the last two months. As it turns out, the laws are actually consistent with the logical scientific interpretation of what a person is. Surprised?

WELL gandu if you are so anti abortion you shouldn't have fucked her without protection.

>>17894891

using protection is murder. sperms have rights
if sperm could vote hillary would be in jail where she belongs

>>17894023
And yet there's not only an ongoing effort to remove those restrictions, but the grey area isn't absolved by it. Aborting something before time X so it doesn't have the opportunity to think so it doesn't count isn't any better.

>>17894891
sex and murder are two separate things

Is OP coming back? I wanna know what he and his wife talked

>>17884962
Where're yours?

>>17884996
Are you seriously comparing full grown, living human beings with a lump of cells which might lead to potential life?

>>17884674
Talk to your Priest.

>>17895475
>time X
Yes, fixing a time X would be so wrong. Clearly the only way to ind a universal solution is if time X was fixed conception.

Also I've literally never seen anyone even suggest abortion in the last trimester. I'm calling bullshit on this unless you can source it

>>17897025
I think it's recommended when either there are complications where the mother could die or something like, the baby doesn't have a brain or something and would die anyway.

>>17885266
It's more hers than it is yours senpai.
Your body did literally 10% of the work. Do you have any idea how pregnancy fucks up a humans body? Not to mention the emotional state of the person having to go through it.

As for you OP I think counselling would be the right thing to do. I'm telling you right here and now that " I have certain points that I would never yield on" is a cancerous state of mind that has no business in a marriage. You have obliged yourself to share your life with another person forever. This won't happen if you aren't willing to negotiate and be flexible.
I mean the same thing can apply to your wife.
What if her point that she would never yield on was to have a child in collage and fuck up her life?
It's not nice of you to go on about your viewpoint and feelings about this and not taking into consideration hers at all. Tbh you sound like a shit husband right from the start. Either go conseling maybe it will help you get ride of your cancer attitude or just divorce her, she deserves a happy life with a man who actually cares about her more than a cluster of cells. You'd rly throw everything you had away for a cell cluster? GG

>>17898252
Its both parents child equally.

>>17897035
That's not even an abortion thing, that's doctors recommending to let someone in a critical condition die to ensure they keep someone else alive