Honest thoughts on Abortion?

>>17866504
>Logical
There are no logical reasons either way. Only emotional/ethical reasoning either way.

>>17866511
Ethics in the Greek sense are generally at least found by reasoned argument though. That's why it was so hard to actually decide on anything.

>>17866504
Depends how you feel about having a living growing little person in your uterus. Some women, understandably feel freaked out or whatever. To the cold girls who can do abortion, i hope they dont change their mind once i cum inside them. Huge trust and respect there

>>17866526
I really was mainly asking femanons.
It seems unfair for a man to force a woman to carry a child, although I think a mans feelings should be taking into consideration when he doesn't want a kid.

>>17866523
Yeah but the average person doesn't do that

I think its disgusting, and fucked up to kill a fetus. BUT, i think its even more fucked up to decide what women can and cant do with their bodies. So im all about free choice i guess. You do you, and just dont tell me about it.

One of the basic rights in every modern country is the right to bodily autonomy. In a nutshell, bodily autonomy means that any adult in their right mind has the right to who or what uses their body, for what, and for how long. This is why it is not legal to force people to donate blood or organs, even though people die as a result. A fetus is a bodily parasite that use's women bodies for shelter, as well as stealing nutrients from them. Now, sometimes women are okay with that, but when they're not under the principle of bodily autonomy women have the right to remove them. Anti-choicers want to punish women for having sex, and say that women lose their right to bodily autonomy when they chose to have sex. This is a both a logical fallacy, as consenting to have sex does not mean someone consents to having a parasite in them, is extremely impractical(people are going to have sex), and also is found in no other cases. If someone chooses to drive drunk and gets in a car accident, we don't force them to give their liver or arm or whatever to the person they hit.

On top of that abortion has been practiced in all cultures for as long as humans have been humans. This is because being pregnant, bearing children, and raising children is extremely money, resource, and time consuming, and until recently often deadly for women(which still happens more than you think, even with modern medicine). Societies have recognized that forcing women to bear child that they can't afford or take care of is never a good thing, and is a net negative for everyone. This still applies today, and being forced to bear a child can literally ruin a womans life, even if they give it up for adoption right after it's born. Forcing a 21 year old college student into $30,000-50,000+ worth of debt, probably ending her college career and forcing her into a sub-optimal mcjob in order to pay for that debt, probably force her to rely of government assistance for prenatal care makes no sense.

Guy here. My gf had an abortion years ago. Killed me. Didn't think it would affect me at all. it did tho

>>17866504
I'm for abortion

here's a logical reason

birth control isn't 100% effective.
if your birth control fails on you, you are automatically supposed to "take responsibility"
what difference does it make when you weren't planning on the child anyway?
>take Plan B
unfortunately, Plan B stops working once a pregnancy test starts working.
Plan B works before the zygote attaches to the uterine lining
Pregnancy tests work after the zygote attaches to the uterine lining
so overall, Plan B is a shot in the dark since it becomes less effective the more time you wait
hell it doesn't even guarantee anything after a day and stops working after about 4 days.

even then, if someone is irresponsible enough to NOT tend to their birth control
why should we not let them ditch out of being a parent?
they are degenerates and probably will spawn degenerates.
if they can't be fucked to use a condom, what makes you think they can change a diaper every few hours?
yes, so irresponsible as to put on a condom, but responsible enough to raise a human to be a productive member of society

additionally, say the degenerates who can't spend a couple bucks on a condom are also poor
it's cheaper to give them an abortion than give them money for the rest of their lives

anyway,
to me the only difference between taking the pill and getting an abortion is that an abortion is a pain in the ass to go through
either way, you are potentially preventing a life from forming
that's why catholics are anti-birth control. they feel that even using a condom is potentially killing a life.

There's a really good argument against it.

All you have to do is put the baby up for adoption. It's painful but not nearly as painful as killing your kid. And your kid gets to live this way. And if you want to see them again one day, they'll most likely contact you and want to be in your life while you've still got decades left on this earth. And that will be plenty of time to foster a very close fruitful loving relationship with them.

And if you want to adopt and never see them again well it's just as simple as confronting them once about it in a single letter or painful conversation in person and they never see you again. A single painful convo is worth letting them live for 80 years.

I'm adopted. And you know what? I am so happy my mother did not abort me. And you know something else? Probably nearly ever other adopted person would tell you the same thing. So if nearly 100% of the people who weren't aborted are telling you they're really happy they weren't aborted I think that gives you an idea that abortion is a really stupid idea.

And if that doesn't convince her enough, there is a video showing a side view of the abortion tools being used on the fetus. A video that made a few abortionists quit their job. The fetus reacts in a way that is extremely obvious that it is scared and frightened by the abortion tool and when the tool starts tearing them up you can see their little mouths trying to scream. It's horrifying.

Choosing to kill your baby when there is all the reason you can let it live and be fine with letting it live is extremely stupid and unacceptable imo.

Now if this ever happens to you or a friend remember what I posted and tell them and save that babies life.

>>17866652
>All you have to do is put the baby up for adoption.
>you can see their little mouths trying to scream. It's horrifying.
>extremely stupid and unacceptable imo.
i almost pissed myself laughing
>LOGICAL REASONING
you failed buddy

also
>Probably nearly ever other adopted person would tell you the same thing.
what about the millions of unadopted kids, or the adopted kids who were abused?
bet they wish someone would spend several years and thousands of dollars to try to take in a kid who doesn't look like them
because, fact of the matter is, the vast majority of people would rather just pump out a kid who looks like them than to go through all that effort to get someone else's mistake.
how does it feel to be a privileged minority that applies their situation to everyone else, anon?

>>17866652
THIS. If the couple is too cowardly to take responsibility, at least have the courage to have the baby and give it up for adoption. Birth control isn't 100%, and the couple should know that and have a plan if something happens. I'd be pissed if I was aborted.

>>17866666
>66666
>3 times the 666
>I'd be pissed if I was aborted.
how does it feel to meme on 4chan, Lucifer?

>>17866665
Well the odds that an orphan gets abused and abandoned is way less than them being adopted by a loving family and living a pretty nice life. I'd take that chance any day.

>>17866675
Wowee. I guess you learn something new everyday. I gotta think some shit over.

>>17866504
Embryos are physically incapable of thinking. If you define life as "i think therefore I am" this means that there's nothing wrong with abortion. If you're a religiousfag and think it's alive cause it has a soul, then you consider abortion to be murder

>>17866682

About 1/3 of children in foster care are abused at some point, and that rate jumps to more than 2/3 when you look at things like group homes. On top of that there's roughly 100,000 children waiting to be adopted today- adoption rates have never succeeded the rate of kids that need to be adopted since the 1980s.

>>17866613
>basic rights in every modern country is the right to bodily autonomy
Irrelevant. Whether it's a right in modern countries adds nothing to your argument.
>A fetus is a bodily parasite
Redefinition of the word "fetus" that ignores a fetus is a human being.
>Anti-choicers want to punish women for having sex
Not true. We just don't want anyone murdering any fetuses.
>consenting to have sex does not mean someone consents to having a parasite in them
Missing the point. That's how your body works, and if you choose to create a life, it is on your conscience that you destroy it.
>If someone chooses to drive drunk...
False equivalency.
>Abortion has been practices in all culture
Irrelevant.
>Being pregnant, bearing children and raising children is extremely money, resource and time consuming
Finally, an argument!

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>>17866703
>a fetus is a human being.
No it's not

There's basically only two lines of reasoning:

1. An embryo/fetus is a human being and so their life deserves as much respect as a human being who's been born already.

2. An embryo/fetus is just a bunch of cells that are on their way to becoming a human, its life is less important than any reason you have to abort it.

>>17866713
Ignoring biology? Typical.

Argument a)
Each time you have your period, it is the result of your body's immune system destroying a potential life and flushing it out of your body.
If you are not constantly pregnant throughout your life, each period you have makes you a murderer.

Argument b) having an abortion, is where you destroy a potential life, either through chemical, or mechanical processes. in other words, birth control is murder, morning after pill, etc. is murder.

Argument c) none can defy the will of the divine creator. if god wants your egg to become an adult, it will become an adult, and nothing anyone can do will prevent god's will.

Argument d) It's your body, but the state should control your reproductive system, because you are a stupid woman who can't make such decisions for yourself, or what's best for society. Humanity cannot survive without wars killing bad people, and we need unwanted babies to make it to adulthood to fight those wars for us. your country thank you for your 9 months of service, you can get those stretch marks serviced at your local VA hospital when you drop off the baby at the recruiter's office.

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>>17866722
>Ignoring biology
Yes, cause a fetus can reproduce or adapt or respond to stimuli. Have fun in your "i'm so smart cause I found misrepresentations of science that sound like they show the beliefs I had before consulting science" bubble.

>>17866703

>Irrelevant. Whether it's a right in modern countries adds nothing to your argument.

It's not irrelevant. It's a right.

>Redefinition of the word "fetus" that ignores a fetus is a human being.

Whether it's a human or not is what's irrelevant. I'm a human, and if my liver goes I can't hook you up to a dialysis machine and steal your blood, even though Ill die.

>Not true. We just don't want anyone murdering any fetuses.

But you don't give a single fuck when people die from lack of organ transplants, and no anti-choice group has EVER put forth any effort to make donation mandatory.

>Missing the point. That's how your body works, and if you choose to create a life, it is on your conscience that you destroy it.

Getting pregnant is out of everyone's control.

>False equivalency

It's not. And again, there's no other time when a person's action leads them to being forced to give a part of their body to someone else.

>Irrelevant.

The actions of humans and norms of culture has not relevance in a discussion on a topic that is rooted in human actions and norms of culture?

>Finally, an argument!

There are many arguments, all of them support the right for abortion

>>17866652

>All you have to do is put the baby up for adoption

After 9 months of physical, emotional, and fiscal burden, with effects that reach far beyond that. Oh, and that's if it doesn't kill you.

> I am so happy my mother did not abort me

And? I'd be pretty fucking happy if the goverment forced someone to pay for my food, hosuing, and internet, doesn't mean they should.

> The fetus reacts in a way that is extremely obvious that it is scared and frightened by the abortion tool and when the tool starts tearing them up you can see their little mouths trying to scream

A fetus doesn't have the ability to be scared or feel pain, they don't even have eyesight to see the tools.

>>17866504
>What are some actual, logical reasons for or against?
Do whatever the fuck you want, it's your life. Another very logical argument for it is the fact that there is no fail-safe method of contraception.

Now for the biased part (as if the statement above wasn't), I'm pro-choice because you're not killing anyone as much as you're not killing anyone when you have protected sex. One could argue that it is a life form once it starts growing shit but to counter that I would say that it is 100% fine and not taboo if you kill the fetus before it develops a functioning nervous system. I don't even know when that actually happens, but it's just my personal reasoning for it. Also, I'm also inclined to think that the final say for this should always be primarily to the couple involved and ultimately to the woman, independent of any fucking *belief* or shit like that. Nobody should feel bad over others' entirely subjective feelings over something that has to do with themselves before anyone else, especially when it concerns such a delicate and important decision in someone's life.

>>17866724

>Argument d) It's your body, but the state should control your reproductive system, because you are a stupid woman who can't make such decisions for yourself, or what's best for society. Humanity cannot survive without wars killing bad people, and we need unwanted babies to make it to adulthood to fight those wars for us. your country thank you for your 9 months of service, you can get those stretch marks serviced at your local VA hospital when you drop off the baby at the recruiter's office.

Top kek.

When I was 17, I brought my girlfriend to get an abortion. The condom broke, and I don't think we knew about Plan B at the time. It was the responsible choice for reasons I don't think I need to explain. She got pregnant again a few years later, but miscarried, which is unfortunate because we probably would've kept that one.

I'm pro-choice, because when you boil it down all anti-abortion rhetoric is just that, rhetoric. It's all 'coulda shoulda woulda', from people who, well, people who's opinion shouldn't mean jack shit to you or I.

For example, my best friend is 26 and has been dating her boyfriend for 7 years. She has a family history of mental illness and other serious hereditary complications. She's decided that if and when she wants kids, she wants to adopt. Her boyfriend is entirely on board for this. She is on regular birth control.

So what happens if she gets pregnant? Was she not supposed to have sex with her fiance? Was she supposed to use a 'better' birth control? Does her wish to not raise a sick child, but instead take adopt, not have merit?

As a person, I very much dislike people who assume my business. If you don't like abortions, don't get one. That's pretty much where I draw the line

>>17866734
>It's not irrelevant.
Yes, it's called argument ad populum. Just because a lot of people call it a right doesn't affect whether it is moral or immoral.
>But you don't give a single fuck about when people die...
Assumptions. Irrelevant. Also, for the record, I care about anyone who dies.
>Getting pregnant is out of everyone's control.
In some cases, yet. But you can't put a penis inside of a vagina and not understand the risks.

>>17866730
>a fetus can ... respond to stimuli.

cells respond to stimuli. again biology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHe7y8cy-7Y

>>17866652
Wanna know how /I/ know that /you/ don't know anything about OBGYN?

>>17866504
Imagine if you had a super retarded conjoined twin. Imagine if one day you just killed em, without their consent. That's basically abortion.

>>17866748

She was supposed to get her tubes tied.

It's fine.

>>17866749

>Yes, it's called argument ad populum. Just because a lot of people call it a right doesn't affect whether it is moral or immoral.

Perhaps, but I think the fact that multiple people from multiple cultures in multiple parts of the word have looked at the argument of bodily autonomy and decided that it makes logical sense, is moral, and should be enshrined as a right has some weight.

>Also, for the record, I care about anyone who dies.

Then go donate one kidney, one lung, some bone marrow, and become a blood donor right now. And pay for all of it. I'm even being lenient and letting you get away with donating only things that won't kill you, many women aren't so lucky.

>In some cases, yet. But you can't put a penis inside of a vagina and not understand the risks.

And there are risks you'll get into a car accident when you drive a care, doesn't mean that everyone should top driving cars unless they're willing to give their body to anyone they hurt when that accident happens.

>>17866760
And what makes you think you get to demand my friend gets elective surgery? How about you pony up the cash if you're so concerned.

>>17866760

Ha, good luck if you're under 40 and have never had a child. Doctors generally refuse to do anything for women who want to be sterilized just because they don't want kids. On top of that, what happens if she gets pregnant despite having her tubes tided? It can happen

I wouldn't feel the need to say this, but there are some retards who think this way even in this thread. There are people that to this day believe that you should always keep the baby no matter what and that is simply fucking stupid. That logic implies that if a woman definitely doesn't want to have a baby at any given moment of her life but still doesn't want to render herself infertile artificially because she might want to do just that in the future, then she simply should never have vaginal intercourse unless she wanted to reproduce because of the slim but actual chance of her getting pregnant.

>>17866760
You know you need to have 3 natural born children if you're under 40 before they'll even look at the application, right?

>>17866749
>you can't put a penis inside of a vagina and not understand the risks.

not everyone shares your faith. some cultures even today, don't know what makes babies, women just seem to randomly get pregnant around the village, with no known rhyme or reason for it. who remembers where they were or what they were doing nine months ago?
what causes pregnancy.. lol
scientifically speaking, putting a penis in a vagina does not cause pregnancy 999 times out of 1000 not very convincing evidence, if you ask me. anecdotal at best. clearly there is some higher power at work in this equation.

>>17866504
>logical reasons

successfully avoiding having ugly or deformed offspring, an example of failed abortions is china and their excess of ching chong chinks gooking all over the place with their ugliness.

>>17866689
>If you define life as "i think therefore I am"

I'm pretty sure there's a biological definition for what life is

>think it's alive cause it has a soul
>a fetus isn't alive besides muh soul
retake Biology

>>17866713
>a human fetus isn't human

another stupid animefag

>>17866504
I'm against abortion in all cases, including rape, incest, and the death of the mother. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I also support a system which helps women after the birth of an unwanted child. Forcing someone to give birth then telling them to fuck off is a dick move.

>>17867040
a fetus cannot sustain life on its own
it is completely co-dependent on the mother to live
if it were taken away from the mother prematurely, it would die because its body has not finished developing yet

this is why people use the argument that a fetus is not a human being
it is developing to become a human being
of course at the biological level, yes.
but at the developmental level, no.

ITT:
>give me logical reasoning
pro-choice: OK!
anti-choice: hmmm...no.

>>17866504
If you don't want a baby what is the """""logical""""" reason to not get an abortion?

To me it's like
>I fell down the stairs and broke my leg. What are some actual, logical arguments for or against going to the hospital and putting it in a cast.

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>>17866734
>and if my liver goes I can't hook you up to a dialysis machine and steal your blood, even though Ill die.

But will a woman die if she gives birth? No, probably not. Stop with the shit argument.

>getting prego is out of our control
KEK. Is this bait?

life begins when you receive the holy spirit with your first breath.

Personally I think that having kids in general is a terrible idea. There are so many people who are depressed and hate their life, they were created without their consent and now that they're here they don't even really have the option of ending it. If you kill yourself you hurt everyone who cares about you, often quite severely.

I work a job in healthcare where I frequently have to help children with extreme birth defects that have often left them with severe mental retardation and a very poor quality of life. I have to be honest it's quite disturbed me, I can't imagine wanting to have a child when there's a chance they could end up like that.

resources are limited and the resource consumption of one human will kill someone else in the future

technically we're all murderers anyway just by existing so whats the big deal of killing a fetus now instead of letting a child starve in the future

>>17867070
LOL 10/10 PISSED MYSELF LAUGHING

I think it's a necessary evil.

Most of the people who have abortions are not people I would want reproducing anyway.

It should be available, but it should by no means be trivialised or normalised like SJWs are trying to do.

I'm in the "don't have sex with somebody you are not prepared to have a child with" camp, but I realise most people are degenerate sacks of shit with no self control so it's unrealistic to expect them to do that.

>>17867070

Genesis 2:7

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

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>>17867050
It is a human fetus, composed of genetic material from 2 humans. It is, ipso facto, A HUMAN.

>developmental level heh
So, is a baby "less" of a human than a teenager or an adult? No. You're human or you're not, making your point nonsensical

I think it mainly comes down to your concept of personhood. Persons are held with very high value, but something simply holding human DNA is not always necessarily a person. I don't consider a fetus a person, and therefore do not consider it wrong to terminate it. For me, I don't think it's any principally different than the sperm or eggs or zygotes that people pass naturally on a regular basis. And that a woman's right to choose what she does with her body trumps the value held by a non-person fetus.

I think that people who call themselves pro life and apparently therefore consider fetuses to hold personhood, but then turn around and make exceptions in the cases of incestuous pregnancy, rape, pregnancy complications that could result in physical or mental deformation, and in vitro fertilization, and who also don't give a fuck about the welfare of a child resulting from an unwanted pregnancy, are among some of the most disgusting kinds of hypocrites.

>>17867080
>Most of the people who have abortions are not people I would want reproducing anyway.

Bro, I hate to break it to you, but most of the people who have abortions ARE people who reproduce. It's very often omen who either go on to have children in later life, or are already mothers and don't want more kids. Ask your mum, chances are she had an abortion at some time but just doesn't want to admit it.

>>17866637
lmao I would love for you to find any catholic that says using a condom is equivalent to killing a life

Anyway, human life is sacred and every life is worth fighting for. Our culture is nihilistic and thinks these things don't matter in comparison to our economic comfort.They will use vacuous arguments of bodily autonomy (a fetus is not "your" body, as science confirms) and woman's health care and parasites to make killing an innocent child sound humane.

The truth is abortionist philosophy is inherently ableist. It compares the life of one human to another (the baby and the mother) and places more value on the mother because she can perform more functions which will be granted an arbitrary importance.
>the mom can think and feel and has a will while the baby is just a bundle of cells!
so what?
We judge a human's value by its essence as a human being, not what it can do at a given moment. If that were true, we might be justified in killing a person while they were in a coma and lacked "consciousness."

>>17867126
Yes, but it minimises the amount of children they have, especially at that point in their lives.

My mother had two children, miscarried a third and then dad got a vasectomy, no abortions.

>>17867135
>we might be justified in killing a person while they were in a coma and lacked "consciousness."


We are. And we do, rather often.

>>17867135
>places more value on the mother because she can perform more functions which will be granted an arbitrary importance.
it places more value on the mother because she can survive without being physically tethered to someone else's circulatory system, unlike a fetus

>>17867087
well a fetus isn't a baby
different developmental levels.
babies can breathe on their own
fetuses can't.

>>17867138
Pulling the plug is passive death and can be justified.

I'm talking about actively euthanizing someone and justifying it based on their lack of consciousness, which is immoral.

>>17867144
How is pulling the plug different than cutting the umbilical cord?

wow how unfortunate so many people in here cannot control what a woman does with her body
shame nothing you say or do will prevent a woman from aborting a mass of cells she doesn't want to shovel money into
darn free will!

>>17867143
And? Babies can't walk on their own in early stages. They still need the mother to a certain extent for breast milk. A baby can't communicate either.

Either way, I don't see how this is relevant in any way to the point. Anon, said a fetus is not human. They are human. Case closed. Different developmental stages does not make a fetus less of a human. You are or you aren't.

>>17867139
a baby can also survive if it's not forcibly removed from the womb. you're just repeating the old ableist arguments.
>but the mother can survive on her own so she's more important!
what about self sufficiency makes you more important than someone else?

>>17867153

Ad no other human has the right to another humans body. What makes fetuses so fucking special they get things that you or I don't? Fuck, by your logic I can go kill my dad for bone marrow and harvest my mom for her bile right now. I mean, they CHOSE to have sex and have me, right?

>>17867148
Actually, the illegalization of abortion is a very real possibility, and in some regions certain legal restrictions make receiving the treatment very difficult. So, people can and have told women what they are allowed to do with their bodies, and those people with that power are politicians and the voters who give them power. It's an idea that makes me uneasy, myself, but a reality that shouldn't be denied.

>>17867157

She's a living person with an actual life and friends and family and a career and feelings and a brain and contributes to society. What makes a fetus so special? Why do fetus trump women?

>>17867147
nature has teleologically designed human beings so that they might create more humans and have them carried to term. complications arise in this process of course, but if this weren't the inherent tendency of our species I doubt we'd be around now.

Modern medical technologies have their place, but do hold an analogous role in human life.

an abortionist wants to have an occult control over these natural tendencies and to obstruct them. not only is abortion an offense against nature, it's an offense against humanity by killing literally the most innocent of all human beings.

>>17867157
>a baby can also survive if it's not forcibly removed from the womb
So what? It's inside someone else's body, connected to their circulatory system, using their blood, taking their nutrients. If it can't survive outside the womb so be it.

>what about self sufficiency makes you more important than someone else?
"important" is subjective but if you can't survive without someone else's body that you have no right to use without their consent, then you are at their mercy, which they are not obligated to give you

>>17867173

Sometimes one of those complications is a mother not wanting to harbor a fetus any longer. Abortion is natural.

Also babies aren't innocent, they are sinners and are sent to hell.

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>>17867161
>Ad no other human has the right to another humans body

By your retarded logic, a woman should have no right over a fetus either, considering that it is another human as I've already stated 10 times

>they get things you or I don't
kek, like what? You're only taking something away i.e life

>MUH BONE MARROW ARGUMENT

>they chose to have sex with me right
I mean, probably not. Your Mom probably got drunk one night and fucked up. Rather than getting an abortion, she decided to have a dumpster baby like yourself. Be thankful you're not dead, because you now have the ability to shitpost as you've already demonstrated

Either way, you're making other points to continue an argument that was lost from the beginning. You said a fetus is not human. It is. That's all I said, Now you're having a spastic attack because facts.

>>17867164
i sympathize with your intuition. in an ectopic pregnancy where the woman's life is threatened by the growth of a fetus in her fallopian tube, indeed the fetus (if not already dead) will die and take the mother down with her. In this case, the procedure to remove the fetus is not an abortion, strictly speaking, and the woman's life is saved.

In other cases, the woman's life is usually not threatened and she has the physical capability to carry the baby to term. I think you are creating a false dichotomy. It is very rare that there would be a legitimate case of "it's either the baby or the mom."

>>17867187
>a woman should have no right over a fetus either
Right. They have the right to remove a fetus from their own body.

>>17867187

>By your retarded logic, a woman should have no right over a fetus either, considering that it is another human as I've already stated 10 times

A mother take nothing from a fetus though. You're not stealing from a person when you remove their hand from YOUR pocket.

>kek, like what? You're only taking something away i.e life

The body of someone else

>I mean, probably not. Your Mom probably got drunk one night and fucked up.

So you admit I'm right?

>You said a fetus is not human.

I never said that, I've said that it doesn't matter whether a fetus is human or not because a human doesn't have the right to the body of another.

>>17867183
It certainly is a complication isn't it? That doesn't make the action of killing "natural" however.

Babies are not guilty of personal sin. The stain of original sin is another story. Also god's mercy is not bounded by the sacraments (baptism).

>>17867190

Usually, but there is always a threat. Beyond that, capacity should and does not matter. Walmart can take a the hit if I decide to steal from them, but that doesn't give me the right to steal from Walmart.

>>17867173
I believe that humanity has reached a point where producing as many offspring as possible just for the sake of it is no longer beneficial to the greater good. In the animal kingdom, naturally induced miscarriages occur in conditions that are not optimal for the benefit of certain species. Humans use technology to serve this purpose. Also, I do not consider fetuses persons, and therefore not "the most innocent of human beings."

Logic? Fuck off.

>>17867201
Do you know why baptism even exists? It's a ritual created to accept new people into a community, because at the time of its conception, infant mortality rate and miscarriage rates were so high that marking a person's entrance into life at the point of birth didn't even cut it. People lost babies that were too young to even be named or baptised left and right and they just had to carry on like it wasn't a big deal because it was so damn common. We now have modern medical advancements that allow us to push back that worldview and mark our perceived person's entrance into life and as a member of the community right at the time they exit the womb. But nothing is less natural or less conforming to our cultural history than considering a fetus to be a person. It is actually an entirely (relatively) new concept that there is no cultural precedent for.

>>17867194
>They have the right to remove a fetus from their own body.
Which would effectively mean killing it and destroying its body. The act of removing a fetus places the life of the fetus in the mother's hands, so the mother essentially DOES have control over another life without any consent from the fetus but hers. The fetus in that way has no rights, which would make the whole "EVERY HUMAN has a right to their OWN body" statement dumb when you are for abortion, considering that aborted fetus or just tossed or put in labs with zero consent. How does a statement like that make ANY sense in this context?

>>17867196
>when you remove their hand from YOUR pocket
Who put the "thief's" hand in the pocket in the first place? And a mother can take everything from a fetus when you consider that it can be easily killed.

This is like giving money to a homeless person and then kicking them in the face. The mother's actions more often than not put the fetus there in the first place. Now the fetus is stealing?

>I never said a fetus is not human

>>17867050
>this is why people use the argument that a fetus is not a human being
>it is developing INTO a human
'Into' would imply it is not even a 'real' human yet

This is what you said. And as I said, you cannot develop into a human. You are or you aren't. A fetus is a human

Person hood and consciousness is another argument that is completely subjective and almost philosophical if that's what you were on about.

>a person doesn't have rights over another body
See above

>>17867263
The fetus has control over its own body. It can beat it's own blood with it's own heart and maintain its life if it wants to and there's nothing the mother can do to stop it. It has exactly the same right as she does. If it can't do those necessary processes for life outside the womb, that's it's problem, not the mother's.

>>17867280
>if it wants
Jesus christ. Are you saying I choose to have my heart beat, that I choose to let blood flow through my body? You talk as if it's some choice humans make. It's an automatic function that the fetus has zero control over. It didn't even have control being there in the first place. It just exists.

And as I said, the earlier statement makes zero fucking sense when you think about it. Pro-abortion people are all about "Right to the body," yet the fetus has zero right to its body as soon as it pops out. It's not coherent. You can't say humans have right to their body, then actively deny those rights to a fetus

But then again, both sides don't make full logical sense and this is more of an emotional argument, which is why these threads always get so much shit

>>17866504
Since there's no way to prove it one way or another, it should definitely be legal, in order to let people make the decision for themselves.

Okay, so as OP I take it there is no consensus. I guess I'll just hope my birth control never fails.

>What are some actual, logical reasons for or against?

There is only one truly logical thought when it comes to abortion, either for or against, and that's that if the pregnancy is so bad that it might kill the mother, you should get the abortion. There's no guarantee that the fetus will be a viable baby, so the risk outweighs the reward.

Don't ask for logic on a philosophical, moral, or spiritual matter. :'D

>>17867480
Philosophy in the Greek tradition relies upon logic though? They practically invented reasoning.

Knowledge is Belief, truth and justification according to Plato.

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>>17867502
>Calling me out when I was trying to sound philosophical

Really, though, abortion debates are still no place for logic. Other than what I already mentioned, nothing else said for or against is anything more than personal FEELINGS not logical reasoning.

>>17867510
Guess I just hope it never comes down to it. I have an IUD (hormonal stuff fucks with my mind) and mostly use condoms.

>>17867511
I wouldn't worry too much about it. If the time ever comes when you need to decide on having an abortion or not, past thinking won't really matter anyway. It's the same concept as a dude that doesn't want kids thinking that accidental child is the best thing that ever happened to him, or if someone pulled a gun on you you would do this and that; nobody actually knows what they'll do or how they'll feel about something until they actually experience the thing, everything before that is pointless.

Mistake 1: Assuming her current mindset won't be changed by induced hormonal changes.
Mistake 2: Assuming her mindset won't change the minute she sees child out of the womb.

.>>17867036
>biological definition
Yes, there is one. According to it, kids before puberty and infertile women aren't.

Biology, and science in general, doesn't concern itself with questions like that.

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>>17867502
>Philosophy in the Greek tradition relies upon logic though?
It's shit tho

i don't understand anti-choicers. a woman getting an abortion isn't going to affect you in any way at all. if you don't want to get an abortion, then don't, but it doesn't mean other people who want/need one shouldn't.

>>17866504

Putting aside the moral questions for a second abortion can cause scarring in the uterus which can have pretty big health complications if you decide to have babies later on.

>>17866713
Agreed

>>17867683
Um.....u wrong

>>17866772
Boom, got him

>>17866730

>Yes, cause a fetus can reproduce

So humans aren't human until they hit puberty?

>>17867153
"They are human, case closed."
Solid argument champ, no way they can refute that.

>>17867047
So if a 12 year old girl got pregnant to her rapist father, you would force her to have the child ( even if it kills her in the process) and if the both live the baby will end up in state care where the child has a extremely high rate of being sexually abused as well. What the fuck is wrong with you! Why would you be okay with that!!!

>>17866504
Killing an undeveloped fetus is like killing a fungus in one sense, it has no emotions, it feels no pain, it thinks no thoughts, it does not care or know if you kill it. Outside the womb, a mother is a feeling, thinking and caring person who is nearly incapacitated during the later months of pregnancy. She may decide that her, her partner and her environment are all unfit for raising children. She may decide that the long term investment needed for both pregnancy and child birth are at odds with her goals and lifestyle. Her body itself may be at odds with pregnancy and child birth and the risk of dangerous complications or even death are still present in modern society. Adoption, while an option,, first off, requires complete and total devotion to a healthy pregnancy for 9 months and aside from the emotional and physical pain associated with that certain places have notoriously unfit orphanages and other such establishments. Lastly, while the argument is often made that abortions can lead to the premature death of a potentially great person there's many obvious variables that can make that improbable and others that make the opposite, premature death of a potentially evil person, just as, if not more, likely.

Abortion makes sense in many cases and I see no reason to be universally against it but just as giving away a child to adoption or raising a child in a bad situation is emotionally painful so is having to terminate a pregnancy from what I've gathered.

I personally would never force a woman to have an abortion as I'm comfortable with taking responsibility for my fuckups and generally like kids but I can see why other people feel different.

>>17866504
An embryo is a life, a human and a different individual from the mother.

But an embryo isn't a person as we mean it. It is not conscious of itself, it is not conscious of anything that surrounds it, it cannot feel anything (either emotions or physical sensations such as pain), it has no memory. It has no personal rights because it is not a person, and these include the right to live.
For the same reason it has no right to decide about its body - not even a child can take decisions about its body!
On the other hand the mother is a person. She has the right to do whatever she wants with her body, and the right to decide if being pregnant or not. It'd be unfair to force a person to go through 9 months of unwanted pregnancy to have a baby if she doesn't want to. She has every right to cease it if she desires to.

On a more practical level, it'd be better in my opinion to not have an unwanted baby than have a child without having the willingness or the resources to raise them well. You cannot be a good parent if you didn't want to be a parent.

I do agree on the other hand that we should have stricter rules for abortion - for example, I don't think that allowing abortion up to 6 months is fair, you're killing a fetus that can feel pain. 3 months is usually a good limitation unless there are life-or-death medical risks for the mother or the baby.

I also think that we should limit abortions as much as possible. We can do it by enforcing better SexEd programs and free/low cost birth control methods. We should also make life easier for pregnant women (free medical assistance, for example), help newborns financially and make adoption easier.

>>17866504
okay this may seem like a contradiction, but hear me out
people say abortion is evil because life is created by a deity and to abort a baby is to play god
>however when you say abortion is bad you actually create this whole "bad" thing as in killing a living thing is bad to be a universal or cosmic rule of everything
>so people (a puny "living" thing on one out of INFINITE planets) think their rules are the truth
>little do these people know that by stating those rules, they practically place themselves above their god, since people came up with the rules, not their god
>so now these people place humans above all else, even above nature, by saying killing babies is bad
>all the while nature favors no one, and that is why nature is the one to make the rules
and since I've never seen a rule by nature stating abortion is bad, I can say abortion is not a bad thing.
>if nature would have such a rule, abortion would be either impossible or would leave devastating marks or damage to the mother to make it impossible to actually have an abortion.

>>17867802
and yes by my logic you can say murderers are not a criminal, but because our society needs rules to function we have to put these rules in place.
However for personal matters like abortion, I believe the individual should make up their own rules.

My gf had one.. two years ago.. i regret it since...it hindered our relationship, honestly was not worth it despite our situation at the moment.. i cant see a kid or baby now with out thinking what it and it makes me sad.

>>17867813
Get the fuck over yourself, you didn't kill a kid, it was an unfeeling, unthinking piece of flesh that looked like any unborn primate.

>>17867737
Did you ever think that maybe biologists aren't philosophers and are looking for practical results instead of trying to define things in a universally morally correct way? Will you now stop trying to use scientific definitions as a basis for morality? You're supposed to only look at their results, not definitions

>>17867835

Ummm, are you sure you are replying to the right person?

>>17867839
Yes. Why?

>>17867845

Okay just wasn't sure if that was supposed to be direct towards someone else.

>>17866730 was the one that brought up reproduction as a requirement for life I was just countering his point. I'm not the one that says you need to be able to reproduce to be considered human that is what he was saying and I was pointing out the absurdity of his point.

>>17867855
Read the post that >>17866730 replies to. It's not a defense of being able to reproduce as a requirement for life, but a rebuttal of the "ignoring biology" point in the previous post that suggests the biological definition should be taken, and that definition states ridiculous stuff like "humans aren't human untill they hit puberty"

>>17867795
You probably won't get any replies, but I wanted to let you know that you're 100% correct

>>17867832
What a big guy

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>>17867866

>>17867859
Thanks! I didn't really expect to get replies, it was super nice to read this.

>>17867672
>According to it, kids before puberty and infertile women aren't.

just stop posting

>>17867701
>isn't going to affect you in any way at all

Well, it doesn't have to. People are just talking about whether it's morally wrong or justifiable.

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>>17867738
Wow, solid argument champ. No way I can refute that. You just repeated what I said, amazing

It's everyone's personal decision.

You have to ask yourself if you consider it as murder or a fallback option for birth control.

Logical arguments would be:
avoiding financial or health risks, beeing able to finish your education, no partner to support you, you drank/smoked/ didnt look after your nutrition and therefore dont want to risk putting the kid in a bad spot from the start, if it has a disability

or

maybe your last chance to get a child, you have enough resources to nurture it alone, you have the right partner and you have been together long enough (at least a few years)

>>17867470
Wait, did you really think that we'd all feel just one way or the other and that just going with what we say is right would be best for you?

It's actually kind of nice that for once we got a thread where we see both sides of an argument.

>>17866652
>he thinks the foster/adoption system is anywhere near tolerable

have you ever talked to a ward of the state, nigger? how about a child that found out s/he is adopted? that fucks with the core belief of identity in a child

>>17866504
>for
You cant force other ppl what to do. If she wants to kill her own baby thats somthing she has to live with not you.

>against

We have laws against murder, this is no different.


The reason why this is a debate is becuase the root cause is not being addressed.

>>17869545
Adoption can be a fine option. I was adopted and my adoptive parents always presented it as "Every one else just gets what they get, but we chose you." I always knew I was adopted, as in, it was just part of the story of our family. no problem, its only weird if yu make it weird. Or if the adoptive parents fucking suck, but there are sucky parents everywhere.

Al that said, I dont have a problem with abortion.at least up until 27 weeks or so. On the one hand, if the child s not viable on its on, then the mother decides.

Also, it doesnt really matter anyhow. We are all just carbon based life forms living off of star dust and photons. The universe goes on forever with or without us.

>>17869549
It is not a baby until it is viable outside the womb.
if its nt a baby, it is not human and if its not human, it is not murder.

>>17867470
Tbh the arguments in this thread should be enough for you to understand the issue and decide what your personal opinion is

>>17869549
>this is no different.
It is though, because fetuses aren't developed enough to be considered persons

>>17866539
But men must pay for children they do not want and can't stop the termination of children they do want. It's the worst type of having it both ways for women.

If legal paternal surrender was a thing, the grey area would be reduced a little, but people argue it's either anti-woman or anti-family, as if abortions aren't anti-family.

Anyway, you wanted some logical reasons for abortion being either good or bad.

Good: It is an effective means of eugenics to provide abortions in a safe and accessible manner. In the state of New York, more African Americans are aborted than born. That is a huge relief for crime rates and welfare statistics.

Bad: It begins the moral reletavism that comes with dehumanizing persons on the idea that, if you kill them before birth, they must not really be a person. This degrades the sense of family.

Good: Abortion allows women who would otherwise be in hard pressed situations or victims of crime to opt out of the danger that is motherhood and the financial disadvantages that come with it (in a society without such a massive welfare system).

Bad: It isn't always efficiently used. If a woman rapes a man and is impregnated, not only is there no legal precident to force the termination of a pregnancy (It's unconstitutional even), but the woman is eligible for child support even if convicted of the rape that creates the aforementioned life.

So Abortion is statistically good if you want to kill off or prevent as many black people from being born as possible, but also laxes societal standards for sex and child rearing.

>>17866504
Abortion is something you can only decide for yourself, and opinions may vary according to how your life is at the moment. We just cannot decide that ALL women can't abort, or that ALL women should abort. But we need to guarantee that the women who think this is their best choice for whatever reason (and these can vary from health complications to simply not wanting to) can make this decision safely.
Most commonly people get stuck in the "is the fetus a person or not?" but I think it's pointless when we don't have a system able to take appropriate care of unwanted children.

>>17869703
well said...we may now 404 the thread.

>>17869607
>a fetus isn't human

Why is it called a 'human' fetus then you retard?

>>17866539
This is like saying that it is unfair for a woman to make a man pay child support.
This argument is fucking retarded.

>>17866652
Over 95% of abortions are chemical abortions, it's a fucking pill you goddamn Bible thumper. Don't use scare tactics to convince people, the kinds of abortions you're talking about are not only use very sparingly but many doctors refuse to do them.

>>17869676
>muh eugenics

Abortion is the best bad thing for society. No one likes abortions, or is pro-abortion, but if we outlaw it it's just going to return to back alleys or something only the rich can safely do.

Fact of the matter is it's cheaper, leads to healthier family's when they can plan their parenthood, and is the responsible thing to do. You could give it up for adoption which respectable, isn't a guarantee at all for a happy healthy life for said kid. Depending on where they are given up for adoption it could be a good life or a miserable one which leads to shitty adults.

I've noticed a lot of pro-lifers aren't interested in the kids life once they are born, bemoan the welfare that has to go to the kid, and shame woman who have birth out of wedlock. Not saying they are all like that but it is what it is, these people are pro-birthers, not pro-life.

If you are seriously against abortion consider spending your time and energy getting your legislator to fund education safe sex and handing out birth control like it's going out of style. Abstinence while obviously works isn't followed so should be taught alongside of all the above methods.

I have no qualms about abortion, I don't like it, but humanity has declared time and time again that human life is cheap so I'm not going to boo-hoo about something being snuffed out before it can suffer versus people getting their limbs hacked off or starving to death in a shithole.

>>17869979
I guess they're less pro-birthers and more prudes or pro-stop-having-sex-if-you-aren't-prepared-and-willing-to-raise-a-child-in-the-event-birth-control-fails-ers.

But everyone calls them prudes, then they advocate to not kill the child, only to get the retort "well why don't you take care of it!" To which the clear response is "it's not my responsibility"

And then the argument is "well I'm not going to take responsibility for a child I created, and you aren't going to take responsibility for a child I created, and I'm not going to just become responsible with sex in a manner that doesn't require aborting, so nothing personnel kid."

>>17869999
It's not a good argument, but a lot of humans aren't rational. It's why roads are designed bigger than they need to be, or why theirs warnings on dangerous products to not be used in ways what should be obvious. But these have to be done.

People are going to have sex and do everything right and still lead to a pregnancy. Idiots can too.

We can either bury our hands in the sand and just think everyone is going to do the right thing (which not everyone obviously will) or as a society do the right thing and educate everyone and make the tools to prevent contraceptive easily available. That's how reduce the number of abortions. Telling people to pray to Jesus isn't going to stop people from fucking.

>>17870016
I didn't mention Jesus at all. People don't care if you have sex, the argument is so it when you are stable and capable to care for a child just in case. If a bunch of employed 20-somethings fuck like nympho rabbits I couldn't care less. It's when people ask how we can get rid of this huge grey area (because perfect accidental pregnancies and rape don't count) and then plug their ears when the most logical choice without hurting anyone is offered up.

>>17870043
Shitty people being forced to carry a kid to term does hurt people though. It's a drain on society. There's a good chance that person will grow up to to do crime or just repeat the cycle.

I've explained the logical choice. Education and subsidize contraceptives. That's proven to work and it's substantially cheaper.

If people were aware of and cared about consequences well people wouldn't be fucking up all the time. We can't rely on people making logical choices because they often don't make the logical choice. That choice being not getting knocked up/knocking someone up.

Mortality rate associated with birth is high as fuck compared to ones caused by abortion (and most of cases of death in result of abortion include lack of assistance when needed = not following medical protocols, shit I won't get in my decent country anyway). Also post-pregnancy health complications are way too unpleasant. So nope, dear pro-life anons, you won't force me into childbirth with banning abortions. Not this century.