Chapter Black Saga, what went wrong?

>>161974491
the author was reading a little bit too much Stardust Crusaders at the time

>>161974597
Really?

Some of the characters introduced in the arc didn't get enough screentime. Some got plenty but then you had bland guys like the Sniper who's only memorable moments were throwing a truck at Yusuke and deciding to go beat up guys who killed a kitten. And Flavortown man to bring back fucking Elder Toguro, which itself was a wasted moment with Kurama.

I think the saving the lives of Sensui's minions hampered it too in a way. As much as I liked Doctor and thought he was one of the best characters from the arc, there is no way he should have been allowed to live.

>>161975489
One of my frustrations with the villains in general was that, like you said, people like Sniper and Gourmet barely had any characterization. It would have been nice to see their motivations for following Sensui and his plan. Also, that scene with Sniper and Doctor was hilariously awkward:

"Oh, I lost to people with ACTUAL COMBAT EXPERIENCE, and that is somehow enough indication that Sensui is going to lose. Time to jump ship and pretend nothing happened even though I am just as guilty as Sensui is for almost bringing about the end of the world"

Speaking of awkward scenes, that scene with Sniper and his sister near the end of the arc was so random. You could have removed it and lose nothing at all.

>>161974491
Sensui's character was just so shitty that it ruined the whole arc.
>having split personality disorder means each one gets their own power or some shit
Absolutely fucking retarded

Then there's all the dumb bullshit about Kuwabara's sword being able to slice through dimensions which gets forgotten about after the arc ends, and he basically gets written out of the show after that. Sacred energy was bullshit too that got written out because it was so OP

Don't even get me started on the asspull with Yusuke's resurrection at the end either.

>>161974597
Wasn't he also feeling really stressed around the time he was penning the arc? The art quality was pretty jokes when I was reading it which may explain why the arc felt pretty unfulfilling when it finished.

>>161975708
>>161975489
Togashi has these great ideas but he often shit at the end. Not the worse cop-put Togashi did

>>161976202
>and he basically gets written out of the show after that.
The problem there falls entirely into the anime team. The tournament stuff is rushed to hell in the manga, and right after that it jumps to a long epilogue where Kuwabara is around for most of the chapters.

The anime chose to expand on the tournament, making it a true arc, and remove most of the epilogue, but didn't bother attempting to create a role for Kuwabara, so he just got written out of the final arc. I guess he was the lest popular out of the protagonist, so they just didn't see the point.

>>161976272
Wasn't Yu Yu Hakusho the replacement to Saint Seiya as the fujobait with the pseudo boyband with superpowers? Kuwabara is great but he was too ugly for the fujos so obviously he was the less popular

>>161974597
How do you mean? Just in general or that Togashi was trying to imitate it?

>>161974491
Some of the ideas would have gone over well if fleshed out more. A previous anon mentions how it makes no sense for the villains to jump ship after being beaten but I think that aspect accurately reflects humanity: you'll follow the leader for your own desires until you realize you've been in over your head the whole time, at which point you kind of say "fuck it" and move on. You see this gangs, in wars and crime of all sorts. The issue was that Togashi didn't flesh the characters out enough. I like the mysterious atmosphere established during Sniper's last scene with his sister, but deeper characterization would have allowed the scene to connect better. Sensui had pretty decent characterization, its just that Togashi never developed any of his goals or the means to reach those goals like he did Toguro.


YuYu is still top 5 despite this though.

>>161974491
It was garbage because Togashi literally didn't want to write it but his editors forced him to. Anyone who pretends it was a good arc is retarded, it did basically everything wrong. No, a half ass attempt at "more tactical" battles doesn't give it merit.

>>161974491
YYH escalated like many of its ilk and reached its observable zenith with the Dark Tournament. It then followed it up with more strategic enemies who don't feel more powerful than what our heroes faced. Felt disingenuous.

>>161976423
The territory abilities are clearly inspired by Stands with the way they're focused on special effects rather than general super power.

They don't even fit well in the context of Yuyu Hakusho where (in the manga) even Kuwabara, the slowest of the group, was faster than machinegun fire even before the Dark Tournament.

>>161976272
Honestly one of the best mistakes made in anime history. YYH wouldn't be as iconic without that fucklong tournament arc.

What even happens in the epilogue?

>>161976490
It wasn't terrible, but yes the tactical shit was painfully forced.

I wouldn't mind a reboot where the Sensui arc is repurposed and the tactical shit made to be an actual threat. Followed by a proper, not rushed, ending.

>>161976539
>YYH wouldn't be as iconic without that fucklong tournament arc.
I meant the 2nd tournament in the demon world, not the Dark Tournament with Toguro and such. The Dark Tournament was in the manga and it was mostly the same as the anime version, aside from some Koenma filler stuff that anime added.

>What even happens in the epilogue?
A bunch of random chapters with the context of demons mingling more into the human world, like Yusuke investigating a supposed demon crime, only to learn a human was behind it; a bunch of backstory to various characters, like Yusuke's human father being introduced, and Yukina moving into Kuwabara's home (Kuwabara's father also appears briefly). Mukuro's backstory was actually given in the epilogue in the manga, but they moved it to the build up to the tournament in the anime. Then there's a quick one chapter final mission as a spirit detective against some rebels from the spirit world that take over a cannon that could blow up Earth, and then it's the beach scene that was in the anime.

>>161976659
It was terrible because the execution and timing within the story was awful. It could have made a good second arc, not a good post Toguro arc. There was one good part of that entire arc and they managed to ruin it a few minutes later by backing out.

>>161976659
I think the worse part is how the final fight with Sensui was not a tactical fight and furthermore the tactical element did not carry into the next arc either. If Togashi stuck to his guns and made Sensui not stronger than our heroes but rather a strategic and tactical challenge then the arc would have succeeded. If the following arc was tactical in the same way that the Dark Tournament was about escalation then the series would have been even better, possibly perfect.

I think for me, the fact that the very random reveal concerning Yusuke's origins was used as the method to defeat Sensui, who seemed unbeatable at the time, what with being able to keep Kuwabara, Kurama and Hiei at their peaks at bay, and on top of that, used as a springboard for a half-assed arc that was cheaply scraped about from the anime team was what offended me the most when it comes to the last two arcs.

>>161976795
>Yusuke's human father being introduced, and Yukina moving into Kuwabara's home (Kuwabara's father also appears briefly).

WOAH wait what? This shit sounds intriguing. Sounds like what could have been the perfect padding between Sensui arc and Demon Tournament arc.

>>161976872

Hmmm....gotta agree here. I thought there were good parts--I personally enjoyed Hiei vs Sniper and the hospital thing, but you're absolutely right regarding the tactical cop out. They tried to emphasize territories with the gay dude during the Sensui fight but had Kuwabara's sword asspull fuck that up. Not to mention the multiple personality thing could have been cool if fleshed out, but that was even random as fuck. I don't necessarily think that the final arc needed to revolve around tactics though.

>>161976862
> It could have made a good second arc, not a good post Toguro arc

Wow, never seen it like this. That would have been perfect actually.

>>161976862
>>161977118
>It could have made a good second arc, not a good post Toguro arc

I'll have to disagree on that one, for instance, the reveal that Sensui being a former Spirit Detective would not have 'stung' as much had Yusuke was still learning the ropes of the role thrust onto him. The placement of the arc is fine (at least in that regard) under that context as the time and experience Yusuke has accumulated as a Spirit Detective by that time makes the reveal much more significant.

On that note, it also would have been nice if the arc included flashbacks with Sensui and Koenma, it would have made their interaction/confrontation in the cave more meaningful.

And I keep forgetting about this, but what the hell was the purpose of the Chapter Black tape? You know, the thing that the entire arc was named after right?

>>161977524
Well yeah, that particular plot point, about Sensui being a former detective, definitely resonates better with the arc being after the Dark Tournament. However, I'd sacrifice the omission of that detail to have the anime flow better thematically, because the fact that the Sensui characters seem laughably harmless compared to the ones introduced during the tournament is a much more pertinent concern than the impact of Sensui's former title.

And the Chapter Black Tape is what made him flip. He realized that he'd internalized demons as inhenrently bad when they were in truth being tortured at the pleasure of corporate behemoths.

Its actually a pretty damn interesting concept, just that execution man.

>>161977524
>Fighting a former spirit detective and learning to deal with annoying situational powers should come after fighting your master's old partner who's the only person alive that can kill her and the person your boss fears most
No, it made absolutely no sense and carried no thematic weight. Yusuke's role as a detective was all but forgotten by the dark tournament, so if they wanted to make a big deal out of another detective it should have been when that job title was still taken seriously. Sensui and his arc were shit.

>>161976519
You're retarded

>>161975192
Don't believe everything you see on /a/

>>161975708
Fuck you're opinions are giving me cancer

>>161977902
>You're retarded

Nah, if you had a point you wouldn't need to throw meaningless words around.

It's the best arc until the demon ancestor bullshit. It had a real intensity to it and lots of world building that showed promise for cool things down the road if Togashi hadn't gotten burnt out.

You can really see the early signs off Togashi wanting to break Shonen standards which he would later use in the Chimera Ant arc.

>>161978213
>CB
>Best arc
Objectively wrong.

I don't have many complaints until the Sensui fight, everything before that was pretty exciting. Even the fight itself wasn't terrible, its just the split personalities felt unecessary and killing characters just to revive them in the next episode was very tired by this point. Even if it wasn't a great end to the arc, it was a very good setup for the next one....if only they didn't go with another tournament to settle the story.

>>161978213
>>161978271
Best arc in terms of execution? Definitely not, but in terms of trying out new things and breaking away from the typical shounen mold, it could have been the best, but at the least, the arc is something of a 'black sheep' in with regards to the arc's aspects and that's something I appreciate.

>>161978556
>It's good because it wasn't powerlevels and tried "tactical" fights!
No. Execution>all
Any other line of thinking is childish and stupid.

>>161978653
>using the essentialization "childish and stupid"
>somehow expecting us to believe you are anything but

I don't even agree with him but you're being a fool.

File: lewd.png (484KB, 475x750px) Image search: [Google]

484KB, 475x750px

>>161974491
The fight with Sensui in the caves was at least a billion times better than the generic dick measuring contest that was Toguro.

Then Yusuke and Sensui fought again with DBZ powers and it all went to shit.

>>161974491
>nigger saga
>dark tournament
Togashi shouldn't have used words to trigged the minority of his fanbase.

I though there was nothing wrong with Chapter Black and everything post-war tournament. Though I only read the manga, I haven't seen the anime. I don't get why it gets hated on here all the time, I though the ending was pretty much perfect.

>>161980094
*post dark tournament

>>161980094
>He actually likes Chapter Black and the Three Kings arcs
>The arcs where Togashi clearly half assed due to stress
>Only read the manga

Assuming you're not trolling, then you'll definitely like the anime adaptation of not only those arcs, but the anime in general, although the anime does cut a few things from the manga unfortunately.

As for why people dislike Chapter Black, there are plenty of legitimate reasons:

>Not enough fights that utilized humans' unique powers
>Sensui and some of his subordinates not receiving enough characterization
>Not playing off the 'Red Oni, Blue Oni' dynamic that was going on between Yusuke and Sensui enough
>Sudden reveals and asspulls such as Sensui's other personalities and Yusuke's ancestor awakening within him
>Kuwabara receiving a (plot relevant) power up out of nowhere and then being forgotten afterwards
>This arc suddenly being used to setup the Three King's arc

File: 1500010695845.png (309KB, 692x720px) Image search: [Google]

309KB, 692x720px

Wanting 'deep and tactical' fights from a SHOUNEN series sounds like a pretentious and 'Reddit' thing to do

>>161979214
>Things that are childish and stupid can't be described as childish and stupid
You're an idiot.

>>161979355
>Trying to be different is automatically better even if execution it shit
>Setting up an imposing enemy that is literally the antithesis of the MC's growth is bad because he was strong and they didn't try to be "creative" with the fight
Why are Sensuifags so stupid?

>>161980521
Maybe it's different in the manga then, I thought Chapter Black was well-thought out, I don't see how your criticisms don't apply to other arcs as well. I don't read Shonen series in order to point out plot holes and Yu Yu Hakusho did everything a Shonen series should do perfectly, entertaining fights, lovable characters, exciting plot. Just because Togashi was stressed out doesn't mean the quality wasn't still good. And I thought the Three Kings arc and everything that came after was great, YYH has probably my favorite ending of any series, the last few chapters are so cozy.

>Chapter Black Saga, what went wrong?
Oh boy, just wait until you get to the next saga.

>>161974491
Filler

>>161979619
That was horrible. Here's a pity (You).

>>161974491
Everything about it, like the image you posted, screams battle shounen. I have no idea how you managed to delude yourself for so long.

>>161980977
No. We're saying that if a shounen series wants to do that then it should not half-ass it nor drop it later.