APOLOGIZE

>APOLOGIZE
Fuck off with this crossboarder meme.

>>159924467
eh, a lot of people have issues, Auska saw her mom hang herself, before that she was crazy and wouldn't accept her.
Auska turned out shitty too but not a giant pussy.
The problem with him was wanting to stay in his depressed comfort zone and for people to validate it. He wouldnt help Misato when she was there trying to help him over and over again. She bent over backwards for shinji.
Shinji had a problem of only seeing his pain and not conforting others.
His problem was he takes and takes and takes, kind of like a some homeless person for change. They take the change but instead of saving it and get back in to society they spend it on more drugs and alcohol and have no intention of being part of society. That's what Shinji does with his problems, even the eva was trying to help him and all he could do is say it sucks, it's hard. He sucks away people's emotions but when they snap he doesn't help them, he feels he cant. Shinji got a raw deal for sure, but at least he had people there for him. Just pump the kid with prozac and throw him in the damn robot already!

>>159924881
Except the only people around Shinji are even more messed up than him.
Misato never had a proper childhood and so gets drunk and tries to live vicariously through him when she's not ordering him to risk his life in the giant death machine that it's made very clear he is absolutely terrified of.
Asuka is a mental wreck who is lashes out and pushes people away and only judges her self-worth by her Eva pilot training, but in the real world battles, Shinji is better at it than her.
Then he has the ice queen Rei, who never does anything she's not ordered to do until the very end.
His father most certainly doesn't want him to get better. Gendo's whole gambit is to keep Shinji mentally wrecked so that he will initiate Third Impact.

>>159924467
You seen to have missed a part of his character, that also applies to asuka, who has a rather similar situation.
Although he wasn't responsible for the event that started his depression, he is responsible for the upkeep of it.
His own bad life decisions only make him more depressed, which result in worse life decisions.
He is a coward. Not on the physical sense, as he always end up returning to the robot. He is a emotional coward.
He flees from people who arent "perfect" amd dedicated to him. He fled from rei, he fled from misato, he was about to flee from asuka then she called him on it, he fled from fucking kaworu.
He makes absolutely no effort to help his friends through emotional problems, he rather leave and try to find new people.

That is shinjis cross.

>>159924467
He refuses to even consider that he might be the problem, not others.
He constantly complains about his situation, but makes no effort to change it.
After Misato took him in and tried her best to support him, he did nothing for her in her time of need.
He abandoned his friends, Rei, and Asuka, all because he was too scared and self-centered.
He was willing to kill those same friends, all these people he's lived with and worked with these past months by shacking it up with angel boy.
He was literally seconds away from choosing the angels over all of humanity, letting them all die.
And he actually did let them all die in EoE until a deux ex machina had to force him to change his mind.

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>>159925024
>He is a emotional coward.
That's the whole fucking point.
He's an introverted child with severe depression acting like an introverted child with severe depression. Shinji runs away from his issues and so they never get resolved and just pile on top of each other.
Until the very end, when he's forced to confront his issues and himself inside instrumentality. He has nowhere to run and hide anymore.
And, whadda ya know, he comes to the epiphany that he can solve his issues when he confronts them.
It's almost like Anno is telling his audience something.

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>>159924950
>Then he has the ice queen Rei, who never does anything she's not ordered to do until the very end.
She was warming up towards him before her death.

>>159925084
Yeah, only took her a fucking year.

>>159925084
And in EoE, she fully rejects Gendo and puts the fate of humanity in Shinji's hands.
Only for Gendo's gambit to be paid off, as Shinji is so mentally and emotionally wrecked that he initiates Third Impact.
Gendo loses in the end when both Rei and Yui reject him within Instrumentality.

>>159925074
Well, im not exactly sure what your point is, if you are agreeing with me or not, but there are some kind of problems that the resolution need to come from himself.

It was always up to shinji to take the first step in the healing direction, and he never did (till eoe). No one else could do it for him. He is responsible for his own destiny.

I dont pity him, although i do want him to be happy.

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Reminder

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>nobody has said I love you
That's where you're wrong fag

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>>159924467

>>159924950
>Misato never had a proper childhood and so gets drunk and tries to live vicariously through him when she's not ordering him to risk his life in the giant death machine that it's made very clear he is absolutely terrified of.
Your point? My point is that shinji is a emotional vampire. He wants people to feel sorry for him, Misato had it worse but she bounced back, auska had it bad and she bounced back.
Shinji didn't have to get into the robot. If Shinji realized his dad was a piece of shit and turned that into a motivation for anger, shinji could have been a whole lot different. None of the others put their personal problems on shinji until near the end until they finally snapped at him.
The others have issues to but that doesn't excuse his issues either, it doesn't excuse any ones.

>>159925149
yeah well, look what happened to him.

>>159925128
those spelling errors

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>>159925121
One of the more insidious things about depression, especially in people who tend to be introverted, is that it makes you deny any responsibility for your actions or state of being; telling yourself that it's everyone else's fault and you're powerless to do anything so you won't even try. And it can instill in you that no one else can possibly understand you or your problems; you're a special snowflake and your depression is completely unique and no one ever knows what you're going through so they can't help and anything "nice" they say is just empty platitudes they dish out because they want something from you.

And in Shinji's case, he's a kid facing giant monsters in one direction, the adult world of military bureaucracy in another, his dickhead dad in yet another and scary, pushy girls in yet another direction. It's easy for him to feel overwhelmed and unable to do anything.

He's also has Misato as his closest guardian, but she wants him to pilot the Eva. Anything she says that's positive to him, in his mind, is just a cover for her as his commanding officer, ordering him onto the frontlines. He has no reason to trust and open up to her because she obviously wants something from him.

Asuka has a lot of Shinji's same issues, but she deals with them in a different way. She's an extrovert, and violent and pushy and bossy. That he finds himself attracted to her just makes her even scarier to his hormonal, teenage mind.

So you've got all this on top of typical teenage angst and alienation.
It's little wonder he only ever opens up to Kaworu, who offers him love and affection without asking anything in return. And why is breaks the Shinji when Kaworu turns out to be the enemy.

>>159925024
He fled from Toji as well, which, I think, is the worst offender.
After the Bardiel attack Toji wanted to meet him again really bad, I mean they are close friends and Toji knows Shinji never meant any harm, but Shinji couldn't bring himself to face Toji again after crippling him. Seems like a parallel to the end of episode, IIRC, 3 where Toji starts dialing Shinji's number to apologize and gives up halfway through.
That's just the saddest fucking thing, I wish Misato would have dragged him to the hospital so that Toji could talk to him.
>>159925074
Well, yes, he has all the reasons, and he does grow up in the end, but he is in fact a faulty human being, and that's what's so great about the character. Like you said, he goes through hell in NGE.
>friend 1
>crippled before your eyes, by the hands of your own robot
>friend 2
>powerlessly watch her get severely traumatised and consequentially estranged from you
>friend 3
>literally gives up on her life to save yours, then have to live with the fact that she has been replaced by someone who looks just like her but isn't
>friend 4
>crushed by your hand
I mean, fucking christ, give him a break.

>>159925301
I understand and agree. I still dont pity him. As i said, no matter how hard the situation was, it was only him who could have made a difference.

I don't hate him tho. Really dont.

>>159925322
sure I would give him a break but when the adults like Misato try to comfort him he shuts down and makes it worse, That's thing about depression you make others miserable to take away the lonelyness but it works in opposite. He wants someone to be nice to him but when they are he just thinks " They are nice to me becuase I am a pilot" You can't win with this kid. What he needed was a big brother like Kamina. YES I FUCKING SAID IT! If Shinji had a big bro like Kamina shinji would actually grow into a better person.

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>>159925301
And from a depression standpoint, Shinji actually gets better throughout the run of the show. Despite the life-and-death battles that will end all human life if he loses, despite the isolation and fear he feels in his daily life, he still gets better. He makes friends with Toji and Kensuke. He starts to open up and be more normal and outgoing.
He has rough patches and ups and downs. But he does steadily get better. Only to take a nosedive as life decides to start shitting on him hard >>159925322
>friend 1
>crippled before your eyes, by the hands of your own robot
>friend 2
>powerlessly watch her get severely traumatised and consequentially estranged from you
>friend 3
>literally gives up on her life to save yours, then have to live with the fact that she has been replaced by someone who looks just like her but isn't
>friend 4
>crushed by your hand
Kinda hard to keep a positive mind when you see the light of normalcy, only to have the rug yanked out from under you and get kicked in the balls so much.

>>159925434
that's the thing about nose dives people get back up.
Shinji still has had other choices how to act but he goes back to his routine. That's the point of growth is to move from your routine. Shinji is what you call an architypal tradgic hero, in the end he causes his own downfall.

>>159925411
I get where you are going.
Shinji WANTS someone to validate him. To tell him he is perfect and loved.
What he actually NEEDS though is someone willing to say he can improve. That he is capable of overcoming his own problems by his own power.

Not even kaworu did something like it. Kaworu criticized a little, but never actually asked for improvement

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>>159925322
Even after episode 4 Misato still thought of Shinji as the earnest boy she guiltily manipulated into performing miracles for her revenge. She wouldn't be comfortable making him do anything until EoE and getting in the robot was the only possible way for him to even escape.

>>159925503
Well considering the last blow would be Kaworu's death he does get better fairly quickly.
And then Asuka gets gored and it all goes down the drain again.

>>159925503
He would have gotten up. Given time.
It's just that he his absolute rock bottom after Kaworu and it's immediately after that when Instrumentality rolls around. Before he could pick himself up and even dust himself off.

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>>159925552
>but never actually asked for improvement
And that's the crux of the issue with Kaworu. He offers Shinji love and affection and asks absolutely nothing in return. He'll love Shinji as the emotional wreck that he is. And while it makes Shinji feel better, it's ultimately unhealthy because there's no impetus for him to actually GET better.
Kaworu is just a dealer offering Shinji hits to keep him in his rut; just happily in his rut.

>>159925558
but you think his testosterone would have kicked in when shit hit the fan. >>159925552
Yes, that's why he needs a Kamina, some one to run up to him and scream "SHINJI GRIT YOUR TEETH!" THEN POW!
The thing is he didn't have a male to look up to Kaji was not the role model he needed, he needed was a big bro to show him the ropes. All females seem like a paradise but with out a dude to teach how to use your dick it's no wonder he was a bumbling sad sack of misery.

>>159925648
Shinji wouldn't be the kind to take well to physical abuse. /m/ likes to meme about "Brightslap," but those are only people who haven't actually watched 0079 because every time Bright would slap Amuro, he would just make the situation, and Amuro's mental state, even worse. Like the time Amuro ran away and took the fucking robot with him.
Shinji would curl up and get even more emotionally defensive. Hedgehog, remember?

He DID need a Kamina to tell him to not believe in himself, but to believe in the Kamina that believes in him. This is asking Shinji to lean on him. Lean on him and lay your burden on this Kamina, who will bear your burden for you because he believes in you and will hold you up when you're not strong.

He got that, briefly, in Kaworu. And we know how that ended.
Even Simon took more than one episode to get over Kamina's death. Shinji didn't even get a whole episode before the world went to shit.

Anyone remember how Shinji came to the conclusion in EoE that humanity is pretty scummy and should be wiped out, so he continues third impact and everyone turns to tang? That was pretty funny

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>>159925614
And if you think about it, in the end, Kaworu's affection brought nothing to Shinji.
The other 3 children were people he actually connected and got to know well, going through hardships and misunderstandings with all of them.
Rei, Asuka and Toji clashed with Shinji before bonding and creating affection for him, same goes for Misato, it was through then Shinji picked himself up and grew so much during the first 16 episodes, while also learning how to deal with people and diminishing the Hedgehog's dilemma.
Kaworu offered pure affection from the start, which was what he wanted the most, but it was ultimately deleterious, since it caused Shinji to dive head in Kaworu for all of his emotional needs. Kaworu feels like quite the asshole thinking about it this way.
What do you think about him? Was Kaworu being insincere? Did he genuinely like Shinji?

>>159925744
Depends on how and when you use the Brightslap.
When Shinji is running away or when he gets in his head of how he is worthless that's when he Brightslaps him.
If Kamina were there he would tell Gendo to fuck off, he would be the only guy who would stand up to Gendo and defend shinji, while others would just stand there and watch because of rank.

>>159925785
he had a pretty shit life up until then, and lots of people had let him down and pushed him away

anyone who has never had actual clinical depression simply can't relate to Shinji, this is why things like the shit webcomics exist where they all talk about how awesome that life would be, but they just don't understand his perspective on it and why it all terrifies him, even the good things scare him a bit because he is perpetually worried about them going wrong (and 90% of the time, he's right)

>>159925785
A lot of people would have done the exact same thing. At least, I would have.

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>>159925744
>Shinji wouldn't be the kind to take well to physical abuse.
He just doesn't give a shit. He only knew a kid for punching him and burned his hands up to not kill the guy right after.

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>>159925815
That he gave himself up and allowed himself to die to save Shinji's life shows that he really did care. He really did want to give Shinji everything Shinji wanted.
But as an angel, he could never fully comprehend what Shinji NEEDED. He would have shown him affection and kindness. But could never give him the love and support to improve upon himself.
Shinji throwing himself onto Kaworu was on Shinji. He had lost all the bonds he had so painstakingly formed with all people around him and was desperate for any sort of kindness. So when he got just a small sample of Kaworu's affection, he threw himself in, head over heels.
I'm not faulting Shinji for his decision. Just saying it was his decision for invest himself so fully in this pale stranger offering what are, in the end, just shallow comforts.

oh shit I'm sorry.

>>159925895
I actually am, and I'm the guy who wrote the first wall of text, I know what it's like, how crippling it is, but when you see it in others you start seeing solutions.
The thing is shinji doesn't want to change because he is afraid of getting hurt so he stays in a place that gives him the least amount of pain.
Some one like Kamina, would be able to fix that because he would be a shield for the new shinji to emerge.

i think the fans look more in depth to the characters than the person who wrote these fucking characters

>>159926011
that we do
that we do

>>159925063
>He was literally seconds away from choosing the angels over all of humanity, letting them all die.
Not seeing the problem here.

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>>159925964
Yeah but that was still Shinji the Hedgehog. He had retreated into his shell of doing only the bare minimum asked of him and nothing more.
Toji wasn't an authority figure to him, at the time, he was just some asshole from school. Nothing worth getting upset about.

In the Shamhel fight, he finally snaps and got sick of the conflicting messages and being told not to run away, now being told to run away that he snaps and has a good old temper tantrum, releasing his pent-up frustration on the dumbass angel who just happened to be in the way.

>>159926057
typical teenager doing the oposite was what he's told.

>>159926104
He finally takes initiative for once in his life and Misato bitches him out for it.

>>159926135
instead of saying that, he says, "I'm sorry..." "I'll do what you tell me too do"

Every single person on this board would do the exact same thing as Shinji in every single situation, especially as their 14 year old self.

>>159926170
He retreats back into his shell where he feels safest.

>>159926187
that was his problem
he does come out again after Toji but then again

>>159924467
kamille > shinji

>>159924467
>>>/sp/

>>159926175
Nu-nuh-uh!
I would TOTALLY have told my dad to go fuck hisself and and got in the robot and kicked all the angels in the dick. In a row. Because I'm awesome like that and totally know how to handle a strange piece of military hardware I've never seen before in a combat situation with no training.
Then I would go home and fuck Misato, Asuka and Rei all at the same time and would totally make each of them cum 19 times a night because I'm just that good in bed even though I've never had sex before I'd totally smash their clitorises.

>>159926175
I dunno I would have already panicked with the LCL part.

>>159924543
Shut the fuck up, boardculturefag

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>>159925966
Dumb faggy teenagers. Kaworu was just as flawed as any of the others, his is not being human, the guy is literally to good for this world.
Do him and Rei get to come back from instrumentality?
>>159926057
And it's because of this one moment where Shinji acted on his own that he was able to make friends, since Toji, and Kensuke, even if it seems it didn't go through his head, sees how hard it is to do what he's doing and how Shinji is amazing for piloting the EVA considering how much he has on his back while doing so, and how much of a jackass he was for punching Shinji.

Is it just me, or did the ending seem to send the exact opposite message Anno wanted to show?

Everyone says it was all about shinji accepting other people and shit, but wasn't it the opposite? He was so scared of being close with people he chose to remain in the real world instead of merging with everyone else. He kept those final physical barriers between him and all the remaining people.

>>159926295
>And it's because of this one moment where Shinji acted on his own that he was able to make friends, since Toji, and Kensuke, even if it seems it didn't go through his head, sees how hard it is to do what he's doing and how Shinji is amazing for piloting the EVA considering how much he has on his back while doing so, and how much of a jackass he was for punching Shinji.
This is very true. He gets the message from the adult world to never do what he's not told to do. To follow orders and be a good little soldier.
And he gets the message from the kids' world that acting on his own is good for him. Making his own decision makes him friends.

It's easy to see why he'd get confused.

>>159924467
Gomenasai, Shinji-kun...watashi no shinpo wa anata no okaa-san no naka ni deshita

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>>159926239
oh look, it's that stupid fucking webcomic

Just thought of something, you know when kinsuke says he doesn't have a mom, and Toji and class president mention their families minus the moms. And you know that to have a pilot control an eva a mom's soul was needed in the core? Now I don't know about Toji's mom with eva 4, but you the the MP evas all had souls of mothers?

>>159926378
where is that other one where if Shinji had balls.

>>159926319
He chooses the harsh pain of reality because it's real rather than living a comfortable and painless dream. Because that's all instrumentality is. A dream world. It's the Matrix.
A state of being that, like Kaworu, gives you everything you think you want, without giving you a reason to make yourself better.

Anno's message is to the basement-dwellers and introverts like himself that the real world isn't painless. It's not all fluffy and kawaii anime physics everywhere. To interact with people is painful, but ultimately worth it because that's the only way you will grow and advance as a human being. By being forced to face and overcome challenges.
You'll never be a pro bowler if you always leave the bumpers out. You'll never be a BMX biker if you don't take off the training wheels. You'll never play in the big leagues unless you learn to hit the ball when it's not sitting on the tee.

>>159925301
>you deny any responsibility for your actions or state of being
Well aside from the actions it's not like it's a choice.

>it can instill in you that no one else can possibly understand you or your problems
Most normal and well adjusted people can't really. Though I guess that doesn't really apply to the people around Shinji, but then again they have their own problems that they are entirely failing to deal with, so they probably wouldn't be the best people to turn to for help.

>anything "nice" they say is just empty platitudes they dish out because they want something from you.
That's more or less how the world works.

>>159926175
>Implying I wouldn't just have fucked everything up

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>>159926398
This one?

>>159926433
>He chooses the harsh pain of reality because it's real rather than living a comfortable and painless dream. Because that's all instrumentality is. A dream world. It's the Matrix.
>A state of being that, like Kaworu, gives you everything you think you want, without giving you a reason to make yourself better.
kinda, it was a world with out pain, but it took away the meaning to live, to contrast between joy and pain. It was very real however, but they weren't alive as individuals.

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>>159926378
I was more mocking /m/. I try to forget about that stupid fucking comic. And the followups the guy made to troll for clicks.
But /m/ loves to gush how piloting a mech is their dream come true and refuse to acknowledge that combat is a terrifying affair. Especially being dumped in the cockpit of a mech you have zero knowledge or experience or training with.

I like to use this, a cockpit of a real world fighter. Let's see those cocky shits hop inside this and be told they have to fight monsters from outer space.
No training.
No manual.
No flightsuit.
Get to it, faggot.

>>159926464
ah-yup

>>159926565
Easy. Reading a navball isn't hard the center console is another fancier navball, a few moments of pitching up and down and you can now read the VSI, airspeed is pretty self explanatory, the radar altimeter is pretty self explanatory, you already know your bearing from the navball, but whatever, that's self explanatory too.

You see dude, engineers have to make machines that people can use. These 'millions of gauges and switches' all have a rational purpose and aren't there to confuse people.
If you let an engineer have his own way....
...then you wouldn't understand what the fuck you're looking at. Those millions of switches become trillions, you have readouts for EVERYTHING and your plane now weighs an extra quarter ton.

>>159926433
None of that is similar to Kaworu. You wouldn't be doing much of anything with him, even unskillfully, after being freed from your pointless, suffering-based existence.

>>159925093
Yeah, what a shock. A girl with severe mental trauma, and an introverted personality anyway, and also remembers dying the last time she spoke up, takes a little time to warm up to her crush. Who would have guessed?!

>>159926433
>Reality is real
As a skeptic I object to that claim.

> a comfortable and painless dream
Perhaps, but is a utopia so bad? A world where understanding between everyone exists and suffering is gone? Is it really worth giving that up just to suffer, quite possibly pointlessly?

> ultimately worth it because that's the only way you will grow and advance as a human being. By being forced to face and overcome challenges.
Maybe, but what is the end goal of growing? If it is just to face more and more trials, until you eventually meet your match, the question is what for? What does it accomplish in the end that is so worth it?

>>159926741
>>>/tumblr/

>>159926754
>Perhaps, but is a utopia so bad? A world where understanding between everyone exists and suffering is gone? Is it really worth giving that up just to suffer, quite possibly pointlessly?
true, that utopia isn't a bad thing at all, but at the same time you begin to lose your individualism. In the end it depends on what your preference is, individuality that comes with pain or being one with everyone and no more pain.

>>159926754
>What does it accomplish in the end that is so worth it?
the answer to the previous trial, to find answers that are bigger than us. If it's too big now, hopefully someone else can take on the too big task and succeed.

>>159926565
>combat is a terrifying affair.
Eh, I don't know. Admittedly I've never been in actual combat but almost killed myself horribly doing stupid shit before, it's not really that bad when you have adrenaline going and shit. You'd be surprised how the human mind springs into action when the only choice is fight or die.

>Especially being dumped in the cockpit of a mech you have zero knowledge or experience or training with.
Not a bad point, but in the case of EVAs there's that whole psychic link sort of thing going on, it's not entirely analogous to being dumped into a fighter jet cockpit with no training at all.

>>159926877
Psychic link is sorta worse since your own normal reflexes would then be jerking around a much more massive body. With its own brain that can backwash into yours if you think at it wrong.

>>159926957
Fair enough.

>>159926957
that's why they had all those devices to make sure that wouldn't happen. They kept saying they had safe gaurds against that but the human mind isn't easily superseded

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>>159927333
Yeah, basically nothing in place to protect the pilot's mind ever functioned.

>>159927451
I wonder why Seele wanted this, they could have had to have known that if they won; Their egos would have been eaten up to create another all powerful ego. they never had control to begin with.

>>159927494
it doesn't make sense if you try and consider some sort of ulterior motive

SEELE were people who had lived long enough and seen enough suffering in the world and said "we're stopping this at any cost"

do you never look at the amount of conflict and evil in the world, and just wish there was a way to stop it all?

>>159927540
but these were men who created these conflicts after the mideival ages. They are the illuminati. They alreday play the god With their weak functions.