Why was the Demon King Piccolo saga so fucking good? >Piccolo

It was really good but it was still worse than every arc that came after it.

>>159757471
>Worse than the Piccolo Jr saga

No way people actually believe this

>>159757471
>>>/v/

>>159757191
>ultra sacred water

probably could have done without Krillin dying.

>>159757191
O MY SPECIAL WATER

King Piccolo is THE dragonball villain, the biggest bad of the whole series, and the only reason Jr is such an important and interesting character is the backstory of his father.

That arc is the beginning of modern Dragon Ball aka "Dragon Ball Z".

>>159757521
The 23rd Budokai was the first time characters other than Goku were allowed to be impressive. Tenshinhan vs Drum was just pathetic.

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>>159758368
So many things wrong with what you just said

>>159759034
I agree with him desu. It's definitely the first one that introduced greater threats on a DBZ scale

>>159757191
The whole thing is an undisputed classic. Even the Buu saga where Toriyama is clearly burned out. Everyone, be they Japanese or otherwise, who ever wrote anything action-oriented wishes they came up with a concept as cool as fusion. Anyone who claims Dragon Ball is overrated is full of it, it's perfectly rated. In a perfect world it had no plot holes or pacing issues, and every character you liked got to stay relevant. Everyone knows its flaws, but its charm and intensity are so potent that any detractor comes off as a joyless limp dick.

>>159757191
The Saiyan arc is better. It's good, but I prefer just about every other arc in DB part 1 other than it. Piccolo Jr is probably worse, but it has the best fight in the entire series so I don't know.

>>159757793
>not thinking it actually was just poison
>not knowing that he only got stronger because of a double zenkai boost

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>>159757471
it was better than cell and buu arc by far.
only saga that could be considered better than piccolo daimao are the saiyans arc and feezer arc . and when i say better, i mean tiny slightly better

>>159757191
So how the hell did King Piccolo manage to spit out an egg when he had a massive hole in his torso?

>>159757191
>>The first REAL threat in the franchise
Tao Pai Pai bruv
Actually kills people.

>>159757793
I headcanon this as it being just a poison and Goku benefitting due to Zenkai.

The best Sagas are the ones where everyone contributed. Frieza's saga is great for Guerilla Warfare and hilarious powergaming/minmaxing but the Saiyan Saga will always be my favorite due to how many people were involved

>Tien and Chiaotzu weakened Nappa
>Krillin killed the Saibamen
>Piccolo died to save Gohan
>Gohan was out of his element as a kid but still tried to fight
>Goku stomps Nappa and has an even fight with Vegeta
>Yajirobe (FUCKING YAJIROBE) saving the day with the tailcut
>Goku, Gohan and Krillin working together with the Spirit Bomb
>Monkey Gohan ends it all

So few shounens have this kind of teamplay and it was wonderful.

>>159764344
OP here. I enjoyed the Sayan saga but it feels way too slow. The vegeta fight goes on way too long.

I went into Z knowing this was one of the series biggest issues. Are the other Z sagas just as slow as this? It's tolerable but the amount of actual stuff happening per episode feels incredibly low

>>159766307
It's probably too late for you to go with the manga now, but its pacing is perfect.

>>159766400
I Was considering Kai but I decided it would be more worth suffering through the filler I don't like than risk missing filler I would. The manga was always an option too but by the time I was halfway through DB, when I learned about it's merits, I was in too deep to restart

>>159757471
it only went downhill after this saga

>>159757191
I still say Sayain Saga is better simply for the fight with Vegeta.
Because Vegeta brought a level of threat beyond even King Piccolo simply because of his refusal to stay down.
Goku used EVERYTHING. He pushed himself far beyond what he was supposed to with Kaio Ken X3 AND 4. He used the Spirit Bomb. He needed help from Krillin, Gohan and even Yajrobe.
Yet even then Vegeta got up and kept fighting only finally submitting to Gohan's transformation.
A villain whose determination rivals the hero is a terrifying thing, and Vegeta would not be topped in that regard in anime or manga Until Garou from OPM

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>>159767015
>>159764344
Yes.

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>>159767015
Until Garou from OPM
The whole MA arc was fantastic and a crazy ride.

>>159767015
Goku literally lost the fight.

>>159757191
The power up in this arc was the worse of any dragon ball saga. "This is the REAL super water". Boring af. That being said I did like everything else. Krillin dying gave a sense of urgency and dread, then roshi, ciaotzu and the fucking dragon right after. The dragonball hunt was still a thing at least in the beginning and the final fight was great. I remember a good filler arc where Tien had to meet someone whose leg he broke and ask for forgiveness to get a dragon ball.

>>159767594
Ciaotzus death shocked the hell out of me. Probably the most intense moment in the whole DB series. Watching Tiens plan fail after the audience has already seen it work once is so heartbreaking. Especially considering how timid and nervious Ciaotzu is in the moment.

>>159757471
Everything that is considered DBZ is awful. The original Dragonball sagas are the best.

>>159768497
>Everything that is considered DBZ is awful.
Says fucking who? the DB manga is consistently great up to at least the middle of the cell arc, and even then, it still had many great moments, although from that point onward the charm was indeed starting to dry. Art-wise though, the manga kept looking good until the very last chapter, unlike the inconsistent and frankly slow-paced anime.

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>>159757191
The Red Ribbon Army arc is the best, it balanced humor, action, and adventure perfectly. It had a nice slapstick thing going on with Goku vs Ninja Murasaki and there was still a sense of dread with Tao. Plus the worldbuilding was insane and we had some great locales like West City, Korin's Tower, and the Penguin Village cameo. General Blue was actually the first threatening villain (who Goku never beat) and yet he still retained being a goofball (perfect example is crashing his jet into a mountain and coming away completely unscathed). And it's topped off with the monster movie tournament.

Honestly it's kind of why, while I think Namek is great, I was sort of letdown with Namek. It still had great action, but man Namek wasn't explored at all. Early Dragonball's earth was more exotic and colorful than Namek.

>>159769659
Yeah this sacred cowing of Early DB is annoying. Yes it's consistently better than post 23rd Budokai Dragonball, but the saiyan arc-namek is better than King Piccolo-23rd tournament arc. Though 23rd tournament has the best fight in the entire series with Goku vs Piccolo Jr. That fight will never be topped.

>>159769914
>the Red Ribbon Army arc is the best

>>159766307

Damn, if u think the Vegeta fight goes on too long you're not gonna like the rest of DBZ. All the other arcs feel waaay longer

>>159769989
It is and quite easily too

>>159770051
Sure thing, man, you keep telling yourself that.

>>159767015

Seeing this fight was one of the most exciting things to watch on TV as a kid.

>>159770029
I shouldn't have worded it like that. It didn't feel too LONG, just too uneventful given the amount of time it covers. I can deal with 20 episodes of one fight as long as every episode brings something new to the table. The Vegeta fight actually was better about this than the Nappa fight, which it feels like every episode was "nappa attacks someone. Tune in next time"

>>159770462
>watching
You got it coming. Animated DB is fucking trash

>>159769914
I love the Red Ribbon arc it was so out of place even for Dragon Ball but I loved it.

I liked how it continued on in the android saga in Z.

>>159769914
>pretending to like the Red Ribbon arc
I absolutely love Dragon Ball, I literally love Dragon Ball more than anything else in the universe, but even I get bored reading the General Blue arc.

>>159757793
What's the problem?

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>>159770742
General blue was great, but even if you don't like him there's a ton more content than just that plus he at least dies in an embarrassing way. How could you not like the slapstick humor of that arc. Humor, action, and adventure were all balanced perfectly that arc.

I think the saiyan arc is probably next. It had the best action and everyone got to help and the final battle with vegeta was a top tier fight in the series. I just wish tien, chaotzu, and yamcha weren't so useless in the fight. I know it was to hype up the saiyans but still.

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>>159757191
Could OP explain why the Big Boy had to attack Eva-01?

>>159772221

>>159769914
Kid Goku killing normal people left and right.

>>159757191
the real truth is Majin Buu > all the other sagas

>>159757191
>Why was the Demon King Piccolo saga so fucking good?
You very wrong about that, it's the second worst arc in all of Dragon Ball, As Mr. Fusion will tell youin great detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVmHGs91sRY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVozlPCcRbIhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je-iK6izKZ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9riUUsamCY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0jmmfJbI0Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFWvmE_rHX8

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>>159771167
>Dude he stuck a pole up that guy's butt LMAO
I don't understand why people praise Toriyama's humor. He's way funnier when the jokes are secondary to the story. His gags aren't funny, and all of the action is half-assed. I still get pissed off every time I read Goku letting Taopaipai beat the shit out of him for no reason other than to show off how strong he is.

There are a few highlights like Goku going to West City, the Dodonpa, Karin's introduction and Goku meeting Gohan again, but it's still the worst arc in the whole manga.

Can you fucks keep your autism contained to one thread?

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>>159774455
I mean I love Goku, but how can anyone tolerate this level of wank?
>Look Goku's fighting against a guy who won the Tenkaichi Budokai!
>Twice!
>Wow Goku is completely pure of heart without a shred of evil in him
>And now he won without even trying
>He sure is amazing!

>>159774455
>worst arc when everything after Namek exists

Also, I don't know about you but I found toriyama hilarious when he focused more on gags. The first arc is the funniest to me, and I actually hold it in high regard. I like the adventuring and I liked how characters who didn't fight got screen time and prominence.

King Piccolo arc has it's problems especially with the holy water meme and uselessness of Tien despite him being the deurotaganist of that arc. Even Yamcha of all people showed off something in the red ribbon arc.

Namek's locale and lack of worldbuilding is my biggest complaint about it. The scenery and was incredibly boring.

>>159771147
O

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>>159774575
Remember that time when a rat was a more important character than Krillin?

>>159774617
>>worst arc when everything after Namek exists
Freeza through Buu is reason that Dragon Ball is remember to this day.

>>159774260
This, somewhat.
Buu arc is severely underrated, somehow.

>>159769914
The Red Ribbon Army Arc literally doesn't even get good until TaoPaiPai shows up

I think it got ruined with all the sci-fi shit. Like how Piccolo is supposed to be a demon but he turns out to be an alien. And I still ask why haven't any of the saiyans grown their tails back

>>159774575
Goku is wanked to fuck in every arc m8. And I don't see how that's inconsistant really, Goku was pretty pure at the time, and came second place in the 21st tournament despite being like 12.

>>159774725
If you're a fight junkie I guess.

>>159757191
because it wasn't just "let's take turns fighting this guy". there's a lot of different things happening at the same time.

>>159774725
>Muscle Tower
>Goku in the city
>General Blue
>Dr. Slump crossover
Just delete your post and we'll just forget you ever made a fool of yourself.

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>>159774749
Goku wank only works when the guy he's fighting gets wanked too. Watching Goku repeatedly oneshot allegedly strong people while spectators praise him is just boring. Dragon Ball doesn't really start being Dragon Ball until the Tenshinhan fight.

>>159774575
And then he gets raped by his adopted dad

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>>159774907
Goku beat him the same way he beat everyone else in that arc.

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Dragon Ball is still one of the greatest battle shonen of all time. I don't understand why people always try to say it's shit, or that post-timeskip it's shit, and rate things like Bleach and Air Gear over it

>>159774863
Goku was losing against General Blue though or at least even matched (can't remember for sure). Whether or not you like that portion of the arc is a different story, but he wasn't one shotting everyone.

Saiyan Saga is still the best.

Piccolo will forever be stained by the Sacred Water out of fucking nowhere to give Goku a free power-up.

>>159775013
Dragonball when it hits all the right notes is the pinnacle of battle shounen.

>>159775013
Muh 80/90 shounen is shit because everything it did is old and boring because every modern manga has used those cliches and tropes, forget the fact that this manga is the one who originally used those cliches and tropes. I'm too retarded to realize things were different back then and things such as those were revolutionary and even brand new because I'm too stupid to judge anything with but today's standards.

i just finished watching ep 54 and i wanna know when actual threats are coming

>>159775095
I'd say that DB biggest strength is the fightan choreography. Toriyama does some god-tier panels. You can feel the movement just from seeing the panels.

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>>159775032
The Goku wank didn't start until after he trained with Karin. Blue had his bullshit eye powers that let him win every fight before it started, which was even worse.

>>159775175
That's what I meant. It's amazing how fluid and easy to read the fighting is. And stuff like Goku vs Piccolo Jr and the Saiyan arc in general are some of the best fights ever on manga.

>>159775150
Depends what you mean by "actual threats". Goku starts getting his ass kicked every once and a while after that arc, but there is nothing that is actually humanity threatening until the Piccolo saga.

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>>159775175
I haven't seen much battle shonen with fluid fights like Toriyama's

>>159775013
Why is modern Dragonball afraid to show the villain toying with the hero?

>>159775150
84

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>>159775261
Nanatsu no Taizai,OPM?

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>>159775261
For real. The art is so clean, the action is so easy to follow and the choreography is so cool.

>>159774575
He deserved it as he was fighting a ton of shit, got btfo by Tao Pai Pai, trained with a Karin all day everyday and powered up a ton.

Meanwhile the rest of "Goku's party" was doing nothing.

>Roshi doesn't train.
>Yamcha is a bum.
>Krillin isn't even wearing his gi and lost against a vampire kick boxer that Puar and some little nig beat.
>Bulma ain't a fighter.

This is what happens when some guy is leveling up and you aren't.

>>159775369
That's why I said "much". NnT's IMO the best ongoing battle shonen going on right now. OPM is a seinen though

>>159775378
>>159775261
Toriyama being lazy worked to his benefit at times. Rather than bore the reader with exposition, he uses the panels to show case the action going one. Plus heroes and villains both use basic attacks.

>>159764344
>not mentioning Yamcha having a bad presentiment and dying instead of Krillin that had already been revived with the DBs
Come on, this is the ONLY time he did something remotely relevant in DBZ and you forget it?

>>159775473
Is this why action scenes in comics suck compared to manga?

>>159767521
My friends are anime-only casuals, and it pains me that it'll be years before they understand the glory of Garou.
Everything from his transformation onward is fucking gold, and it's not just surface level coolness either. The Monster Association Arc as a whole is fantastic (I particularly love "God" and Golden Sperm), but his fight with the S-Class heroes and finally Saitama is on a whole different level.

The Vegeta fight is really fucking good too, though. Him getting up after the Spirit Bomb is probably one of the first moments to really showcase him as a character and cement him in the reader's mind.

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>>159775514
Comics are a lot less decompressed compared to manga, so their action and fights are a lot shorter, and an interview among many artists has shown that most of them don't enjoy drawing action in the first place. There's still a few stand-outs

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>>159775421
It makes sense logically but it's just so painful to watch.

>>159775514
Pretty much. Though some comic writers think winning the moral victory is way more important than a good old fashioned fist fight.

>>159775721
If you kill your enemies they win!

>>159775789
There's nothing wrong with killing an enemy in self defense, especially if the bad guy is an unrepentant criminal.

It was the weakest DB saga in my opinion. The whole 22nd Budokai up to Piccolo being defeated, actually.

Many anons already mentioned the bullshit with the water, I'd like to remember everyone how the demons spawned by Piccolo in this saga created a plot whole with the whole Namek thing later. "Mutant Namekian", yeah, right...

That said, it's still far better than most sagas after Frieza.

>>159774863
Goku lost at least 6 times in Dragon Ball, what are you talking about. For being the main character, he really loses a lot. Before losing to Tien, he lost to:
>Jackie Chun
>Tao Pai Pai
>General Blue (twice, remember Arale saved him the second time)

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Just wait until you get to Namek
>Ginyu force
>Dat Goku/Vegeta character development
>Hardest and most personal fight in entire series
It's the saga that defines dragonball

>>159775205
Goku still lost to Tambourine, King Piccolo, Raditz, Vegeta, Ginyu, Android #19, Cell, Buu, Majin Vegeta and a few others. He lost more times than won in DB Super.

Like people said, Goku really loses a lot. His only clean victory in DBZ was against Freeza. Remember that Vegeta was defeated by Krillin, Gohan and Yajirobe, not Goku.

>>159776115
Nah, with the exception of the ginyu force a little bit there aren't any gags or jokes the entire saga.
Very undragonball.

>>159776230
I'm just talking about the stretch from Taopaipai to Gohan. At the 22nd Budokai Dragon Ball started being actually good.

>>159776115
Not to mention the cool alien races and power levels. I wish the series had kept this themes for much longer. Not only humans, but everybody who isn't a Saiyan, an android or some kind of spiritual-related being is pretty much useless after the Frieza saga.

>>159776230
Goku biting Freeza's tail.

Is the ginyu force a Jojo reference

>>159776115
>Dat Goku/Vegeta character development
Goku and Vegeta don't develop for shit though in Namek. Goku doesn't change at all and Vegeta's still the same character in Saiyan saga, just with a reason to ally with the Z-fighters

>>159775939
>I'd like to remember everyone how the demons spawned by Piccolo in this saga created a plot whole with the whole Namek thing later. "Mutant Namekian", yeah, right...
That's a problem with the Freeza Saga though, not the Piccolo arc. It's also a problem that easily could have been avoided if Toriyama made the Nameks look like the demons too, rather than making all of them Piccolo clones.

>>159776375
That Vegeta was great. Vegeta as a Z fighter doesn't make sense, he's still evil, he never changed. He goes to hell when he dies.

>>159776375
Why would ever choose to be so factually incorrect? Goku and Vegeta develop a lot in the Namek arc.

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>>159776375
>Goku doesn't change at all

>>159776457
He went to hell because he killed a ton of people, both in the tournament (Buu saga) and before.
Same thing with Bardock. Let's not forget they never even pretend he's a good guy - he was mad at Freeza only because he betrayed the Saiyans, he still liked to fight and kill.

>>159776457
This, I hated Vegeta after Namek.

>>159776498
What the fuck, I thought Yamcha, Tien and Chaotzu never went to Master Kai's planet in the manga.

>>159776544
Was Bardock's wife good?

>>159776559
They went, they just didn't fight the Ginyu force there or whatever it was that the anime made filler about.

>>159776559
The part that's filler is the Ginyu guys showing up.
Remember when they're communicating with Bulma, right after Porunga teleports them to Earth, and it's Yamcha talking through King Kai?

>>159776498
Goku got mad back in King Piccolo, he was merciful in Saiyan Saga. Goku doesn't do much development after the time skip at all

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>>159776375

>>159776607
>>159776609
Oh, that's right. Hell, they could have learned something useful to keep minimally relevant.

>>159776636
I think his fight with Frieza showed was the first time we saw his vindictive side where he mocked Frieza and let him live initially so that he can suffer first hand embarrassment.

>>159776291
I think Piccolo, Krillin, and Tien all get their time to shine in the Cell saga. Krillin doesn't get a fight but he's still featured prominently and given his just due. Then everyone even jumps in at the end to help Gohan out. Even fucking Yamcha.

What's strange is that the Buu arc still has a decent ensemble focus. Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Piccolo, and Mr. Satan are all pretty important. It just feels like you're hit with frustrating disappointment after frustrating disappointment. Vegeta was the nigga you love to hate when he let Cell go Perfect, while Gotenks' stupidity makes me groan.

>>159777111
Gotenks was insufferable.

>>159777111
I don't think the humans helping Gohan with the final energy blast was really that much relevant, but it would be pretty hard to make them relevant ever again after the insane powerlevel increases that took place starting in Namek. The Saiyans had the Zenkais, Piccolo had the fusions and the humans had nothing.

The Buu arc seemed to me like a very poor attempt to reincorporated the kind of humor from early DB. There was some cool stuff like the fusions, but it was a pretty bad saga overall.

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>>159777185
His moves were great though

>>159777185
I get that it was intentional but they may have gone too far in a few places. Buu just felt like a weird place to end on compared to Cell. I'm not sure where the sense of finality was.
>Krillin was already retired
>Tien barely showed up
>Yamcha was basically gone entirely
>Piccolo's arc was over
>Trunks and Goten are introduced but unlike Gohan they're not particularly endearing. Goten is basically young Goku without the benefit of being the protagonist so he's just his most annoying traits condensed.
>Gohan has the rug pulled out from under him

It has two points in its favor.
>Showing us the end of Vegeta's arc and having him fully embrace his role as a hero. Though I posit that Cell already rounded this out pretty well. With him being a dad, setting aside his pride to help Gohan, and having to swallow the biggest slice of humble pie for letting Cell go Perfect. Buu literally starts with him in the same position he's in at the end of the arc, it just causes him to relapse into villainy for the story.
>Developing Mr. Satan

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>>159778219
The series would've had the perfect ending if it ended at the Tenkaichi without the Supreme Kai or any Buu shenanigans

>>159775939
>it's still far better than most sagas after Frieza.
The most boring opinion ever.

>>159778436
It doesn't make it less true.

>>159778396
>Not resolving Vegeta's or Mr. Satan's character arcs

>>159778506
Truth is relative.

>>159778219
Now, compare Cell, which is far from a perfect arc itself. Constantly changing villains and the final villain himself becoming less interesting don't detract as much as I remember though.

>Krillin gets a waifu
>The torch is passed to Gohan
>A returning villain from Goku's past sets the plot in motion
>Kami and Piccolo fully reconcile and combine
>Yamcha gets a hole in the chest
>Vegeta settles down
These aspects make the arc feel a lot more deliberate as an ending. If they were going to continue, they shouldn't have half-and-halfed with the torch-passing. The next generation all proved to be fuckups with Goku bailing everyone out at the end. Should have been Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Videl leading, with Piccolo and Vegeta to the side. Now, Goku's the OG so obviously he wouldn't be gone for the whole arc, but he shouldn't have hijacked the whole thing. As soon as Goku came back it turned into a waiting game for everyone else to mess things up.

Also, fuck Super Saiyan 3 for retroactively ruining the Goku vs Vegeta fight, which was the best part of the whole arc.

>>159778743
I'd still say Buu himself is a far more interesting character than Cell ever was. The various forms being completely different characters who all basically hate each other, Satan turning Buu good, Goku vs Vegeta, Vegeta's sacrifice, Buu looking like a complete moron but being much smarter and always managing to turn the tide of the battle in his own favour, the development of Goku vs Vegeta finally coming to an end, Kid Buu was a very fun villain. The ending with the Spirit Bomb I'd say manages to be an even better ending than King Piccolo or Cell.

>>159767015
>Until Garou from OPM

Gay. When you realize Saitama can just one punch people the manga loses any and all sense of danger.

>>159778991
You're missing the point of that fight. There's never supposed to be any sense of danger because Garou is not actually a monster in spite of his claims, and doesn't have it in him to be a killer. Garou takes on all of those S-Class heroes while taking his time and threatening to kill the kid not because he intends to carry through, but because deep down he wants a hero to be able to stop him. When Saitama shows up and smacks him down first physically and then verbally, Garou realizes that he abandoned his ideals just as Saitama said. Saitama winning was always a foregone conclusion, but not just because of his strength; Garou had already lost the instant he gave up on trying to become a hero.

>>159771167
I agree with you 100%, the RR Army Arc is so perfectly paced, has hilarious moments (gay general blue, bulma picking up mr. briefs capsule, goku's first trip to the city)
the action is great, the whole underwater pirate base section was so cool to read as a kid. The whole arc feels like Jackie Chan meets Tintin.

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>>159778743
Goku didn't defeat Buu by himself. Without Vegeta, Kaio, Mr. Satan, Mr. Buu, and Porunga he would have lost. Not to mention the energy from everyone on Earth, Namek and Otherworld. Buu was such a great villain because it took everything the good guys had to beat him, and they still only barely won.

>>159757793
It was the fucking TRAINING you brainlets, taking the water from him was a form of training, that's why Tao didn't get a power boost when he drank it.

>>159780139
When did Tao drink this? And he drank the sacred water in the king piccolo arc, it was against Tao where the training mattered.

>>159771167
Goku was acting a bit out of character with all that sadism during the fight with ninja Lila. But I second everything you say anyway.

>>159780139
He meant the second water, the name is wrong however, the sacred water was the regular useless one, the ultra divine water was the poison, that probably was just poison (that's why everyone before died) and Goku just got a zenkai out of it.

Also Tao Pai Pai never drank the sacred water, it was filler.

>>159780276
>When did Tao drink this?
Anime filler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1lkHCrV_zo
>>159780139
1st time Goku went there he drank plain water, and the second time he got the real deal.

>>159764344
Vegeta fight was never even. Vegeta was way above goku.

>>159779916
Yeah, it's really great. One thing that bothered me about DB is how the world got more and more generic as the series went on. i.e. the removal of anthropomorphic characters. And it just had this certain uniqueness to it, like How Roshi had some sort of fan that can blow tornadoes but he threw it away cause he spilled sauce on it, or King Piccolo getting trapped in an electric rice cooker. Hell even characters like Launch existing as they are without being questioned (I know she's a gag but still), and Goku turning into an oozaru really made the world feel so foreign. It kind of shrank once Z came into the picture and we find out Goku's an alien, the animal people vanish, and namek isn't even that exotic.

>>159757191
Don't watch the buu saga.The feeling of that DBZ gives you just changes when you get in that saga.Also don't watch DBS its just about Power levels and ki blast and it just sucks

>>159780457
You forgot to include GT in the "don't watch" list.

>>159780499
True.I like the opening of GT tho

>>159780416
Yeah it they were even then Vegeta would have been fucked.

Goku even did a Kaioken x4 in that fight, if he was at 18.000 base that shit would put him at 72.000, just a little bit less than his power when he arrived on namek later on.

Vegeta would have been one shotted with just the regular kaioken and even if he went oozaru Goku could probably take him on anyway.

>>159780457
The buu villain is good also the first half of the saga is good but after that it becomes boring

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>>159757191
>being a kid watching the Buu saga
>Dabura introduces himself as the Demon King and I think he's going fight with Piccolo at some point because of his demonic past
>everyone at school is convinced Piccolo will fuse with Dabura and get a new form
>tfw Piccolo does nothing the entire arc then gets turned to stone
>tfw Piccolo does nothing in GT then dies
>tfw Piccolo is a baby-sitter in Super and probably isn't stronger than Perfect Cell still

why do I still watch this shit?

>>159780627
I remember the rumor floating around about Piccolo was originally supposed to go Majin instead of Vegeta. That would've been interesting, especially if he fights Gohan.

>>159780627
The only good thing that came out of it was hit

>>159780627
Piccolo in Super straight up beat SS2 Gohan in a fight so it's safe to say he's easily above Super Perfect Cell.

>>159780684
I always wanted this, power up Piccolo a shit ton and we would also have a extra babidi enemy for Piccolo to rape.

But Piccolo was already pure good so it doesn't make any sense that he would go Majin.

Vegeta was the only fit, and even he did it on purpose for the power to match Goku.

>>159776553
>Vegeta is super smart and underhanded in Namek saga
>beats opponents that are out of his league by outwitting them
>becomes a retard in the Cell saga due to MUH PRIDE

>>159780432
Dragon Ball worked best as a Kung Fu adventure. When it went Z it lost it's mystical and fun vibe. The whole series is great, but the adventure parts are always the highlights. Namek brought that feeling back a little bit, but not as good as the earlier stuff. I think Goku growing up was not the best idea.

>>159780627
>complaining about Piccolo
Dude, Yamcha was my favorite character as a kid. And I started watching it from the very beginning, I didn't have the slightest idea of how much he would suck.

>>159780684
Vegeta and Piccolo basically shared the same role as antiheroes, not much would change except if there was a master versus disciple fight bewteen Piccolo and Gohan, indeed.

>>159775013
Man, looking back, freeze transformations were so unnecessary, they were there just to hype people.

I mean, he doesn't even go back to other forms anymore

>>159780826
Well it had to change at one point look at naruto it went from ninjas to space aliens beast etc

Does anyone else agrees that the buu saga is a bit sucky

>>159780967
Only faggots who like freeza and cell

>>159780457
>DBS is just about Power levels
Out of all the faults in the show why are you complaining about something that's just not true. DBS is anti-PL.

>>159780826
No, Dragon Ball worked best as a kung fu Superman battle series. If Dragon Ball ended before the 22nd Budokai then it would just been some mediocre obscure manga which most definitely would have been long forgotten 30 years later. When is the last time you saw a Dr. Slump thread on /a/?

>>159780826
Both early DB and DBZ are great IMO, DB being slightly better. Early DB is comfy as fuck, it's really delightful to merge into the universe. It went down in quality when it became too serious and only focused on the fights.

In early DBZ it feels like Akira got a better grip of epic fights and whatnot, the Saiyan saga is great and Frieza had everything to be the ultimate villain of the series, as much as a cliche that may sound. Then a shitload of things that don't make sense followed by a shitload of characters being dropped pretty much reduced the series in quality permanently, as much as the latter sagas had their merits and high points.

>>159780915
Naruto became trash as soon as Sasuke went into barrel, it's irredeemabke shit now

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>>159781161
Saying that Dragon Ball went downhill when it started focusing on the fights is seriously one of the most ridiculous opinions you can have about anything. I know you're just some stupid anime-watcher who doesn't know what he's talking about but it still pisses me off.

>>159781161
Agreed with everything you said, especially with it going down in quality when it became too serious. It's why the android-cell arc is the nadir of the series.

>>159781262
He's obviously talking about the cell arc. Everyone likes the saiyan arc.

>>159781161
> In early DBZ it feels like Toriyama got a better grip of epic fights and whatnot

No he didn't, DBZ's fights were much worse than DB's. DBZ's lose a lot of tension because even more of the fight is dedicated to characters spouting "は、早い！", resurrection garbage, and the Saiyan race as a concept being stretched as far as it can go. Vegeta abusing the "coming back stronger from death" feature multiple times through Namek like a videogame was embarrassing.

Dragon Ball was a true adventure, with every saga expanding the world in interesting ways. DBZ was just powerlevels, and even then should've ended with Freeza.

You might like the fights in Cell and Buu, but they just don't make as much sense as earlier sagas. Sure the author can shit out whatever he wants, but suddenly adding new elements as the plot demands is tacky.

>>159781267
Cell was utter shit. Only Gohan-centered Americans adore it for some reason.

>>159781262
The Saiyan and Frieza sagas were excellent even though they are like that. But everything from the point Tien was introduced to Piccolo was inferior to early DB IMO.

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>>159781318
There is literally nothing wrong with the Cell Arc

>>159781367
Really?
Show me these great fights from DB. You fake ass wanabe DB fan.
I'll wait.

If you don't post any pages that can out do the saiyajin or frieza saga battle then you're a hipster.

>>159781370
Remember, GT? It gave people like you your adventure and db like battles.
It was outright loathed by fucking EVERYONE.

>>159781540
GT was dumb because it was inconsistent as fuck, not because it had or didn't have adventure.

>>159781540
Kuririn vs Jacky Jun alone is better than whole Cell arc.

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>>159780627
pic related

>>159780767
yet he still got his ass beat by Tagoma

>>159781603
Everything prior to the Androids/Cell arc is better than it. The same goes for Buu and GT.

>>159781603
>I am a hipster.

>>159767015
>>159767521
i don't see how OPM tops anything at all in terms of stakes or fighting in general. aside from side-characters fights have 0 tension and any illusion of such is either for laughs or meaningless.

the difference here is that Vegeta was a threat on a level where the strongest hero got beaten to a pulp even after going past his limits, and even after that and a super attack, the villain still got up again. non-ironically Madara from Naruto was basically like this as well, where he got to such a level you couldn't really see how they'd beat him. the difference is Madara's OP bullshit was due to bad writting whereas in the context of the sayan saga Vegeta stomping goku and everyone else was coherent.

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>>159781603
DUDE BOOGERS LMAO

>>159781662
How can you be so damn boring?

>>159781388
You mean the ones that unironically like the IN THE END dbz amvs or the LET THE BODIES HIT THE FLOOR ones yeah.

>>159781430
It had its moments, such as 17 vs Piccolo and the introduction of Cell. That was actually perfectly done and it almost felt like a horror flick.

Sorry meant >>159781747 for >>159781382

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>>159781633
>yet he still got his ass beat by Tagoma
True but he's much stronger than in the Cell or Buu saga that's for sure.

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>>159781747
It had nothing but moments from beginning to end.

>>159781037
Yeah im a faggot sorry

>>159781729
You probably find this opinion boring because it's common and has been repeated a lot, but what can I do. I still hold to it, as much as I try to find good points about the final sagas.

>>159781540
Not him but Jackie Chun vs Goku was a top tier fight. and Piccolo jr vs Goku was also easily on par with vegeta vs goku and Frieza vs goku.

>>159781040
But it is my friend and also all the side characters are more useless then a use condom

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>>159781798
Seriously, if you don't like the Android Saga then you don't like Dragon Ball

Pilaf was the best saga.

The part where they first meet Yamcha is a masterpiece.

>>159781161
Yeah the buu saga was mediocre at best.The android saga was the best in my opinion

I'd still say Buu arc was definitely a step up from Cell. Buu was a far more interesting villain. and him managing to stop the protags despite all the stuff they come up with was perfect. The ending was the greatest ending in shonen history.

>>159781430
The buu saga was the sucky one so much hope for gohan just to do nothing and the ssj3 sucks

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>>159781887
I love the pilaf arc, it was hilarious.

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>>159781857
When I see someone say they don't like the Android Saga I just assume they don't remember anything that happened in it.

>>159781662
I don't know any gt manga.

But Buu is best arc.

>>159781633
RoF arc is the worst and the most inconsistent DB arc ever, on par with Super 17. It's best to ignore it and Jelly Vegeta.

>>159781925
The only things the Buu arc has over the Cell arc is that a ancient powerful demon being stronger than Frieza makes a lot more sense than an android built by a Red Ribbon soldier being so. Also, Vegito was cool, but he being transformed in candy and keeping fighting was absolutely ridiculous.

>>159782006
It sucks in my opinion the only thing good about it is the relentionship of mr.satan and fat buu.

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>>159781967
The Buu Saga was fantastic too

>>159782006
GT doesn't have one.

>>159781987

This art is so refreshing. It's like eating watermelon with salt on it on a hot day.

>>159782040
Yeah that always got me about androids being stronger than Frieza. I think the arc would've benefitted being pre frieza.

>>159781798
> Cheapening Frieza's death by bringing him back
> Cheapening Goku's struggle to become a Super Saiyan when this nobody does it without a sweat
> Cheapening the entire cast by oneshotting Frieza

wow, what a great moment.

>>159782076
Still nothing compare to the androids and freiza saga.It felt very rush.

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>>159782101
I think you're missing the point.

>>159782134
What, cell arc with its villains changing every volume because editor hated them?

>>159781540
the difference is GT had an entire background to it, whereas DB at best had old stories/myths.

and look at what it did to said background:
>gohan is useless even though he was able to stand on par with Goku
>Goku gets turned into a child because plot
>being honest here, did anyone actually ask for Pan?
>Vegeta is evil AGAIN, except this time it's brain-washing
>trunks is ok but he ain't future trunks
>after goku unlocks SS3 again all fights go back to powerleves and it becomes even worse by ss4.

etc. pretty sure this kind of shit is why people disliked GT.

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Yaay

>>159782101
Not the guy you quoted, and I kinda agree, but this "someone appearing and single-handedly defeating a powerful enemy that was hell for anyone to match earlier" thing must be the most recurrent DB cliche.

General Blue, Nappa and the Ginyu force are some I can remember know, but I'm sure there are more like that.

>>159775175
>>159775231
When it comes to Jump Authors, who exactly is the best of the best at what they do?

I've seen people say Toriyama is the undisputed master at fight choreography and fluid panels, but what other things are there to master when it comes to comics/manga that other people are masters of?

>>159782080
So how it relevant then?

>>159782161
Who gave a flying fuck about Cold? After listening to Frieza go on and on about how his power was sealed up for his own good do you really think anyone thought Cold was a serious threat?

>>159780598
Ozaru Vegeta was like 100,000 dude.

>>159757191
Why do people call Dragon Ball arcs Sagas?

They aren't even sagas, they're arcs.

>>159782232
All the androids were interest character and had personality to them

>>159782354
Because that's what they're officially called in vidya games and the series and wiki's and shit.

>>159782354
Arc=saga try harder

>>159782354
Because they are called sagas in my native language.

>>159782354
Funimation called them Sagas and it stuck

>>159782401
Is that what they're called in Japan?

I always figured it was localization calling them that thanks to Funi fucking up.

>>159782435
All I know is that in all the vidya they call them sagas

>>159782302
I think Tao Pai Pai is the first one beating Blue with his tongue.

Even Goku himself has been this cliche multiple times (vs Tao Pai Pai, vs Drum, vs Nappa, vs Ginyu, vs Fat Buu).

>>159780910
Because his base form is actually his final form.

>>159782345
So? Goku did not get destroyed instantly and could have beaten him with the Genki Dama and that was at 24.000 or even lower since he was dead tired, he could certainly handle him at 70K besides one hit to Vegeta with that kind of power would have dropped his ki a shit ton, and Vegeta has to make his energy ball that drops his power even lower to go Oozaru.

He would had him, that's why Vegeta was way higher, else it's no contest.

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>>159776071
>skipping Yamcha

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>>159782949
He never lost, it was a tie, Bulma saved Goku sure, but also he was hungry, Yamcha got raped the next time.

Where can I read the manga online from chapter 370? I've been reading it at kissmanga but the scans got reeeeaaally shitty and don't get better until chapter 420

>>159781041
Dragon Ball was always better than Slump so that doesn't mean anything, and it wouldn't be as iconic for sure I agree, but DB was still better than Z.

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>>159780895
Yamcha is unironically one of my favorite characters in the series. He's always been a jobber but the way Super so blatantly disrespects him and makes him a meme triggered me hard, along with the way they flanderized Goku and other characters. But yeah I loved the sense of family early DB characters had with each other. I wonder what the series would've been like if characters like Puar and Oolong still remained relevant to this day.

>>159781262
Dragon Ball didn't go downhill when it focused on fights, that page you posted in particular is one of my favorites in the manga, that whole section of the fight has amazing choreography and art.
I just think the lack of focus on adventure and the "mystical" world hurt the series. Goku becomes this stoic guy. It's just not as good to me.

>>159782986
it still was technically a loss, had Bulma not been there

>>159783226
your are too pure anon

>>159783226
They spent years not talking to each other.

>>159783157
>but DB was still better than Z.
They are both the same fucking manga, you idiot.

>>159783337
You're a fucking idiot. Lemme spell it out for you, stupid fuck. The "Z" era is not as good as the "Kid Goku" era. Happy?

>>159783848
The 2nd half is not as good as the first half.

>>159784101
except it's not half and half so no

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DRAGONBALL BEST ARC POWER RANKINGS 2017

1. Saiyan Saga
2. King Piccolo & Piccolo Jr. Saga
3. Frieza Saga
4. Cell Saga
5. Red Ribbon Army Saga

>>159784830
lol fuck no at all