Neither of them surpassed Utena though.
His work in Sailor Moon S is a classic.
Utena was a 10, setting the standard higher.
Mawaru was a masterpiece, a solid 9.
YKA was an 8, peaking at ep.4.
That's the trend. He needs lots of episodes to deliver, in my opinion.
Have a (you), you've earned it.
The only way Yuri Kuma could have been better is if Lulu survived for an eternity of lesbian threeways in bear paradise.
Utena pulls a lot from Demian, but if you really want to "get" Ikuhara, go watch a bunch of Terayama films and listen to J.A. Seazer's discography
>Improving on the greatest anime ever made.
Who would pay him to anyway? I don't remember Yurikuma doing all that well.
What are the best minor characters and why is it these guys?
Worst is Chuchu
I will. But first, come here, anon.
I don't recall this, only them winning over and over again.
But it had nice pink salmon sandwich with mayonnaise overflowing out.
Even if you could argue that there's some overlap between people who've worked with Ikuhara and also worked with Shaft (like pic related), any similarities between Meguka and Utena are superficial motifs or homages at best, much like the rest of that trainwreck of a mahou shoujo
Why would you think about this? That was exactly the point of her character until it was ruined, that you didn't need to consider stuff like this. This is one of the few shows where in the course of a couple episodes you go from loving it to feeling sick in the stomach. The only reason I even finished it and didn't drop it outright is because it's an anime classic - if an anime with similar elements were made today (it wouldn't be, certainly not three cours) and in digital, I wouldn't have continued. Not to mention the shitposting would be unbearable.
Are you joking now? Both end with the sacrifice of the protagonist with overly explicit Christian symbology.
And even before, they both draw from fairy tales the same kind of elements (witches, princesses) to narrate about the loss of innocence.
Of course Utena is a masterpiece and Madoka is dogshit, but denying they share many traits is silly.
I can agree with that.
Ikuhara's style depends on him having a ton of episodes to work with so he can flesh out all the characters individually. That and no corporate meddling.
I'm currently working on a video essay for Utena about what the color yellow symbolizes, It's about thirty minutes long. Is that something anyone would be interested in or should I make a text version instead?
And also would you guys say Utena is a critique of other shoujo shows and manga? I'm unfamiliar with the genre but it seems like it very well could be.
I could have pictures in the essay but I see your point. I find video essays more engaging anyway and I already have the audio done. Just means more work for me since I haven't edited anything before.
I'm not yet finished with it but it does seem like it wants to subvert some the common conventions of the genre, most that came all the way from the classic princess fairy tales with the "female prince" thing, the mysterious attractive older guy who sweeps the heroine off her feet, the meek and sweet girl who takes abuse with a smile on her face and never loses hope, class S stuff, etc
Though it also seems to take inspiration from some older shoujo, maybe it's just me but I guess I see some RoV influence in it?
The ending of Utena left me a bit befuddled, to be honest. I enjoyed the show and consider it very good, if not one of my personal favorites, but the ending felt very strange to me.
Obviously its open to interpretation, but it certainly looked like what happened in the end is that Utena just simply failed in her attempt to save Anthy and died as a result. To have the series end on such a dour note threw me for a loop. I've tried to ponder why this was and what the ending could really mean for some time since, though I admit I don't remember everything that happened.
From what I recall, according to Anthy, Utena didn't die and instead "escaped" or "awoke" from the reality they all were trapped in, which I suppose lines up with the earlier motivations of the Student Council to "Break the Shell of the World" but I guess I just don't really understand how exactly she accomplished this. She didn't seem to come to any sort of revelation or self-epiphany, she just refused to give up and kept fighting against impossible odds.
But she'd been doing that the whole series, more or less, overcoming the odds and overcoming each challenge with sheer grit and determination. But there at the end, it seemed all her determination was for nothing. She failed to save Anthy and then got impaled.
How does this equate to her awakening, though?
>But there at the end, it seemed all her determination was for nothing.
She made Anthy realize that she can have a choice of her own. Which, as she follows in the ending breaks the cycle of The Dueling Game, this in the end she did success in her revolution.
Haven't seen the anime for that one either but I read the manga like more than a decade ago, so I only remember the whole campus being catty bitches, incestuous lesbians or junkie lesbians. I think they also had a exclusive rose society or some shit? I guess I can see the similarities. I also remember the "and they both died, the end"
Utena failed to rescue Anthy because you can't rescue someone from an abusive relationship by force. Ultimately all Utena could do was meet Anthy on equal ground, it was up to Anthy to leave on her own.
Utena is dejected because she couldn't be the Prince she thought she was. She thought when Anthy fell that she had failed which is why the swords attack her because she is still judging herself by the world's standards.
When everyone forgets her it implies she has left the system because everyone would hate her if she was actually impaled by the swords of hatred. When she leaves the system everyone forgets her just like Mikage in S2.
Anthy goes to find Utena at the end just like Utena went to find her Prince at the start of the show, in my view to let Utena know that she hadn't failed and that Anthy had left Akio. The bookend of leaving to find your Prince is a revolution because it puts the audience back at the beginning like the rotation of a wheel.
I love this show and the ending is 10/10 in my opinion, though I agree it's confusing.
She didn't fail. She 'died' but also ascended beyond the adolescent world of princesses and princes.
She gained the power to revolutionize the world. In the very last scenes Anthy finally left Akio to go look for Utena, breaking the manipulation Akio had over Anthy. Ohtori is not the world; it is a play world with Akio playing at a prince.
When Anthy leaves, there's no more dueling game. Akio loses his way to try to regain his "Dios" self by proxy (both through the dueling game and fucking teenagers). It's over. It may have looked like she died, but Utena wrecked Akio's shit. Akio only had 'power' because he had anthy. He no longer was Dios or had that Dios power that Utena had. He has nothing now and will probably kill himself. either that or go on fucking teenagers until he's a bitter middle aged man and ends up in prison.
It's a really symbolic way to basically represent this:
> confused teenage lesbian meets weird tortured girl and decides to protect her to serve her own ego.
> confused teenage lesbian is seduced that dude trying to relive his high school days by hanging around high school and fucking teenagers to feel young again.
> confused teenage lesbian finds out the weird best friend she's protecting is getting raped by her older brother (the older creeper) regularly.
> confused teenage lesbian eventually saves weird best friend girl and they run off somewhere away from all that shit.
The movies gets across the themes better IMO. Makes it pretty clear princesses and princes and witches are all just shit people make up to fit others into roles. The movie is called "Adolescent Apocalypse." As in, growing up and being an adult. Part of growing up is realizing fairytales are all bullshit and you can do whatever the fuck you want; the only thing stopping you is when you believe in fairytales or society's roles for you, becausing believing in it gives power over you. The prince never existed. There's no such thing.
She did fail at saving Anthy that was the whole point, if she did Utena would have just become like Akio in the long run, but she gave Anthy the inspiration to save herself, not only Anthy but everyone she met in the school was changed because of Utena's influence, she gave them the strenght to set themselves free by their own hand. There are not princesses in distress nor a prince in bright armor to save them anymore, that's her revolution.
But why did she show her egg to Micky? I thought it was about reaching maturity.
>He is the smartest guy in the school
No, he isn't, and is shown manipulated throughout.
What's strange about a period, and in what form do you show it to someone?
Sub or native Nip? Could be a mistranslation. I can't remember specifically, but I would think he's talking about openly discussing those "things".
Interesting. I didn't even think of it in terms of Anthy's significance, more details I'd forgotten.
You're right though, since Anthy was the source of Akio's power and control over his world, she was the one who had to break out of her shell in order for things to truly change. She couldn't do that on her own, but Utena inspired her to do so.
I believe I get it now.
Thank you, kind Anons.
>No, he isn't, and is shown manipulated throughout.
He was refering to smartest as in he is a know-it-all nerd
>What's strange about a period,
It is strange for a girl that knew nothing about it before.
>and in what form do you show it to someone?
It's just an allegory.
Eh, gotta say that's what confused to me a little about that episode, some things seems to fit the period metaphor like when she talks to Juri and the other girls and the PMS like behavior, but other things seem to fit the teen pregnancy one like the motherly attitude, Touga's talk, her wanting to abandon the egg and then starting to regret it, so I'm not sure either way
>If his 14 y/o adopted little sister got pregnant
Doesn't he say in a later episode that they are truly blood siblings, but lied for laughs? while talking with Akio
>Sub or native Nip? Could be a mistranslation
Subs, in the ones I saw he talks about how he would never associate with a girl who laid eggs and that it's the kind of thing that brings shame to a family
>what's strange about a period
part of nanami's character is that she's very naive and child-like; which is why she hangs on to her brother like that.
> no real sex education
> doesn't get along with other girls because you treat them like your slave bitches.
> no mom because adopted you live alone at boarding school with brother
> wake up one morning and find blood is gushing from your vag
> wonder what the fuck is wrong with you and if you're dying.
basically that. she's too stuck up to ask advice about this shit from other girls because she doesn't want to out herself asthe clueless kid she really is.
>Utena just simply failed in her attempt to save Anthy
Yes and no.
Utena couldn't save Anthy on her own. Anthy had to save herself. Consider the scene in the final episode where Utena is holding out her hand but Anthy hesitates to take it. That's basically what's been going on the whole series. You can't save someone who isn't trying to save themselves.
What Utena managed to do, as >>159497522 put it, was showing Anthy that she was able to save herself, which she did at the very end by calling Akio a manchild and telling him to fuck off.
it's both. just like with animals:
unfertilized egg : eggs we eat, eggs that your uterus chucks out every month.
fertilized egg: pregnancy, baby.
When she talks to Touga, the focus shifts. It was first about her being freaked out about her first period. Then she realizes she can get pregnant, and gets freaked out that she has the ability to be a mom now. Best I can come up with on an emotional level about her regrets about abandoning her egg is teen motherhood and either aborting it or carrying to term and giving it up for adoption.
sort of how you feel when you get your first period. "oh shit, I'm going to be bleeding out my vag and feelign like shit 4-6 days a month now for the next 35 fucking years." and then... "oh shit, if I'm not careful I could get pregnant and have a fuckin baby."
>"oh shit, I'm going to be bleeding out my vag and feelign like shit 4-6 days a month now for the next 35 fucking years." and then... "oh shit, if I'm not careful I could get pregnant and have a fuckin baby."
Thank fuck I'm not a woman that shit sounds awful
Why was Saionji cooking eggs in the middle of the woods?
miki's that kid that knows a lot of random stuff because he's a nerd who reads looks of books and has a 5..0 GPA but would be horrified and shocked to learn people start fucking in the 6th grade
He wasn't all too shocked to see his whore of a sister fuck on his piano.
No, but you know who did top Utena?
yka was pretty good.
She basically "graduated" from ohtori because she stopped trying to fit a certain archetype (a prince). She gave up on trying to be a prince and instead really reached out to anthy to try and offer her help to come out of the coffin. In doing so she gave anthy the power to leave ohtori as well and she realized she didn't have to just be the rose bride forever. Utena's sacrifice is presumably the first time anyone has genuinely cared for anthy with no ulterior motive which was clearly really impactful for her.
She didn't die, she matured and didn't belong there anymore. At least that's how I see it
How new are you?
Surprise box was first used on /jp/ somewhere around 2012 to mock they way /a/ used spoilers.
If you're acting like you're hotshit for browsing /jp/ in 2012 you're positively a secondary to Touhou and were just hanging around because you thought that's where the cool kids were.
What was Chu Chu supposed to symbolize? For some reason he always reminded me of Akio.
But she did save Anthy. Don't you remember the final scenes?
I already read the manga but I'm curious to see the differences with the anime, since the manga is pretty short. The only differences I know are the ending with
Saint Just's death and Kaoru's fate
The anime was actually better. It adds in a lot of stuff that the manga didn't have, but it's to the benefit of the story and the characters are much more well-developed. Also, both of the things you spoilered turn out quite a lot different in the anime.
Wakaba is the only pure girl if you think about it.
A car ride doesn't mean anything.
Having spent the past 6 months reading a shit ton of Noh dramas, I have come to find an even greater appreciation for Utena than I already had. The guy struck genius with Utena, hard to top that.
Ikuhara's problem is that he always goes off the rails and makes a bullshit confusing second half/ending. It was a minor problem in Utena, but he had more freedom in his later works and it ended up killing penguindrum and yurikuma. It's like watching a supergenius piano auteur go freestyle, make masterpieces fly from their fingertips, but then they start getting too into it and begin mashing random keys and everyone is too afraid to stop them.
Unlikely. It did, however, give me a whole new understanding of the structure of the duels and the influences behind the ritualistic, supernatural presentation of them.
Thats what makes it a 10/10 for me. Years later there are still images and scenes that have stuck with me that I didn't fully understand, and have only come to understand with more time. In this way its like I get to enjoy the series anew despite having seen it so many times, which is pretty amazing. Thats some dank fucking art to be able to do that.
>hop on utena thread to shitpost
>motherfucking new album
>one episode in and I'm already absolutely hooked
this. enokido is a mess without ikuhara. ikuhara is also a mess without enokido. dunno about chiho saito but she had terrible ideas and got shut down by ikuni a lot. don't care about the other guys.
You have so much wonderful, heart crushing shit in front of you. I'm jealous. i wish I was 14 and watching this again for the first time.
growing up and becoming an adult while holding on to the ideals and people that really matter to you. It's when you stop letting society and other people define you and you choose for yourself your own way of living and tell everyone else to fuck off. Realizing that other people and authority structures only have power over you if you let them have it.
It's different for every person, and you get a sense most the characters grow up towards the end of the series.
For Saionji it means being friends with Touga again and no longer thinking he has to compete with him.
For Miki it means to stop living in nostalgia / the past and embrace growing up and new experiences.
For Jury, it means accepting that she's not a sick person for being gay, but that Shiori is not the one for her.
For Touga, it happened when he fell in love with Utena for real. All the other girls were just chicks he banged for fun. He realizes acheiving things just for the sake of achieving them is hollow and people matter more to him than he thought.
For Anthy, it's refusing to allow past guilt force her into being her brother's slave and fuck toy.
For Utena, it's being a true friend/lover, more honest with herself and that she can be a good person without idolizing childish things like princes.
Saito is trash. She made Juri be in love with Touga and really tried to scale back the yuri elements. Ikuhara just needed her to make some pretty shoujo character designs really
I still wonder what Utena did to piss off my friend. I mean, look at those ratings.
Me too. Ikuhara made Sailor Moon what it was. He made Utena what it was. Then he made Penguin Drum and Yuri Kuma.
What the fuck did Saito ever do? Shitty incest shoujo manga?
best ops and eds, yeah easy. but duel songs * YKA's bgm were better than Penguindrum's BGM
But that's Saionji
Completely agree with you on. That is why I didn't like YKA (aside the massive lesbo sex which turned me off slightly)
Ikuhara shines with long series where he can build the world and expand the personality of the characters while also building a repeating structure to be played with.
Get new VA's. I mean, voice actors can be changed. Famous characters like Guts and Griffith are played by different people in every anime version and actors who died have been replaced before (like Yang Wenli from Logh). Honestly, I would be okay with any type of new Utena content, even a hidden camera show about the Akio car.
That episode Is basically Nanami's first period.
She finds something new her body can do, and is terrified over it. "am I an alien?"
Both from having something bizarre happening to her and not being sure if it's the same with everyone else.
She was scared that either everyone reject her for laying eggs or everyone will think she is dumb and her body is slow.
Utena failed at being a noble prince, she succeeded at being an amazing friend.
Anthy is the humanization of everyone's wishes and what make them stuck: For Utena it's her wish to be a prince, for that she needs a damsel in distress.
Utena faild because of that (or rather, she got stabbed because she stop being noble by having sex with a taken man, and fails to rescue Anthy because she can't)
BUT! Because throughout the show Utena became an actual friend, Anthy was able to help herself and break out of the world's shell.
>(aside the massive lesbo sex which turned me off slightly)
Wow, so /a/ indeed have gay people posting.
YKA only plus was the lesbian bear sex and how that was bound with the subtext vs real yuri discussion theme playing in the whole show.
Utena of course was more complex but then how many repetitive and boring episode it had which could be simply discarded and nothing of value would be lost? Around 10 easily. And it would still have 27 episodes to tell it story.
If anything Ikuhara should make Utena Remake fit to current times than the 90s where yuri was just absolute Class S niche.
I actually thought it was more a development of the symbol. As in:
>Laying eggs is a metaphor for periods
>Nanami is insecure about what does it means about her
>everyone's comment on the eggs is about an actual egg and not about the metaphor.
Remember that it's a fictional anime, an object can be both real and a metaphor at the same time.
I find that Ikuhara plays a lot with that aspect of real vs fiction.
(its the same as the children's broiler being an actual place that kids are actually collected to in Mawaru)
This is just my opinion though
The car isn't about sex. It's about leading(seducing) the characters to their destination.
This is why the final act is Akio jumping out of the driver sit and enjoying the view.
And is why the cars crush when Utena wins the duel.
>Utena is popular with the gay crowd
>only gay characters are Juri and Touga's dad
Can't they stick with Sakura Trick or something?
To me the egg stands in for different things throughout the episode. The clear comparison is a period, but Nanami's motherly way of treating it makes me think teenage pregnancy, and her conversation with Touga seems to be about shaming female sexuality.
I would say that both Penguindrum and YKA are too short for their own good and that's the biggest reason they aren't quite as excellent as Utena. Ikuhara works better with a long time to develop characters and let arcs play out slowly.
Penguindrum > Utena > Yuri Kuma
Mostly headcanon, and as someone pointed out, that includes what actually happens and what is just metaphor. If you take everything literally or at face-value, it won't make any sense.
A lot of good essays on specific topics at that one utena fan site, though
Ikuhara is intentionally vague about the show. There is a commentary which explains some of his thoughts, but there are also things like Miki's stopwatch that he refuses to answer questions about.
I don't know why it went so under everyone's radar. Maybe it was because of the unconventional release schedule, or some people got turned off by the CG. Many seemed to have completely misunderstood what it was about, despite it being fairly simple.
But so far it's been the best new release of 2017.
Give it a few episodes. The concrete details of Utena's plot are much clearer than Penguindrum's, but it's still full of the Ikuhara-ness that probably made Penguindrum feel pretentious to you.
If you watch the conversation where Miki use the stop watch, and then go back in time (Video time, don't actually try to go back in time, shit will get fucked up)
you will notice that something interesting is happening.
>Is Utena movie a sequel to the tv show? Like another loop, where they actually get a happy ending?
Not really, it's just retelling with few things changed to appeal more to LGBT audience than original anime could. Due to Chiwa Saito meddling and not accepting Utena x Anthy as romantic pairing and stopping Ikuhara from making them kiss in the anime at the end, in movie Ikuhara had full control over the project, so no Akio fucking Utena and Utena kissing Anthy result.
- Utena Chiwa Saito manga - non-yuri related project where the girls are straight from the shoujo cliche perspective
- Utena anime - there's yuri subtext but if there's something more between two main girls we only learn about it from after the show Ikuhara commentary that they had romantic relationship, basically Class S reasoning
- Utena movie - yuri title where the author wasn't censored by anyone to show his true vision, so lesbian car result, full yuri ride
I actually liked the platonic love between Utena and Anthy more then the romantic one. It felt more Naive which fits Utena's personality more imo
(Juri without yuri is plain retarded though)
Why did Juri hit on Miki during this scene?
what's your favorite track from the OST?
I also agree with this. I doubt Ikuhara would sell out like Anno did with NGE.
A spin off might be night though, but I think every character in Utena had their story told, so there's really no need.
A bit late, but don't forget to watch the movie after you're done with the series.
A spin off with a new cast of characters showing what happened to Ohtori after the events of the series is the only thing I could see working out. And even then that poses the risk of destroying the sense of mystery that te original series established.
Not him but I watched the series so long ago, and rewatched it this year,
but still haven't watched the film.
I probably should, but I thought the original series was perfect as is.
>tfw I saw that interview with her when she said that she thought she fucked the audition up because she portrayed Utena as naive rather than tomboyish
She was too pure for this world.
The movie is worth watching for the visuals and animation alone. It's absolutely gorgeous.
Please go away
Yes. When he makes an Anime with Anno.
Call me a faggot but the dance sequence is one of my favourite scenes, it's so beautifully done.
If nothing else though Utena has the greatest soundtrack anime has ever known.
>background characters aren't very detailed
Are you okay?
Not criticizing, just think it's funny that most anime would show the eyes and mouth, but for the utena style, it has to be the nose
I realise it would've been impossible, but it's shame we didn't get the movie's crazy architecture for the series.
Yeah I could jerk off to some of the movie's backgrounds.
So Nanami turning into a cow was a metaphor of the body changes caused by puberty, right?
Wasn't it more about blindly following trends?
The bigger question is what grand secrets we can divine from Touga punching a kangaroo.
Because miracles really do exist.
>the greatest soundtrack anime has ever known
>released on 9 CDs plus an extra CD with dance club remixes
Truly we are blessed
Actually Juri turns you down in the game, turning you into a locket-carrying perma-virgin like her.
I raise your Utena and Oniisama e.. with Ideeon
You're retarded, and are a pushover with no sense of dignity. The natural reaction normal people had to that imagery was >>159481441
And I raise your ideon with Joe
I raise you with a COBRA
Eva is a better show than Utena.
>lacks the depth of Utena
Can you argument this besides a blanket statement? Sure certain elements of Eva are presented at face value (e.g. a lot of the emotional turmoil is simply given as-is), but nonetheless there's plenty of "depth" for the viewer to contemplate throughout. And just because Utena has hidden meaning in many elements and scenes doesn't mean it constitutes "depth"; a metaphor or allegory isn't inherently "deep", and shrouding narrative like so doesn't necessarily add to the show's merits. Really, the scope of Eva is in fact far greater than Utena, both in terms of narrative and themes. Utena is in a way just petty teenage melodrama, albeit done well, where the characters revolve around the narrative, wheres in Eva, the narrative revolves around the characters (this is demonstrated in Shinji helplessness, etc), and any melodrama runs parallel rather being the main focus. As such, Eva can be said to have more depth than Utena.
And on the animation side, Eva is superior. Utena had budget constraints in regards to its three-cour length, and they utilized some (clever) repetition in the narrative to pad it, as well as having partial recap episodes. Such reuse isn't as apparent (if any) in Eva save for the last few episodes.
They're on /a/'s "Holy list", amongst others like Lain, etc. And it was in response to the false connotation that Anno is some kind of sub-par hack.
And I raise Black Jack but you got me. My favorite anime are Rose of Versaillse, Space Cobra and Ashita no Joe 2 and Black Jack OVA.
>Miki's stopwatch that he refuses to answer questions about.
It's because its symbolism is quite blatant: it's meant to remind you the time you're wasting watching such a shitty show.
I'll take that comment with a grain of salt.
No. Penguindrum is pretentious, but at least is enjoyable. Utena is pretentious and nothing more. YuriKuma is the best because other than being pretentious is enjoyable, and fappable too.
>My favorite anime are Rose of Versaillse, Space Cobra and Ashita no Joe 2 and Black Jack OVA.
You have good taste, but alas, my favorite Dezaki will always be
Ace wo Nerae
The one based on the fairy tale? I have it in my backlog but I had no idea it was a Dezaki anime, will get round to watching it sometime this summer.
How was his Clannad movie and Takarajima? Actually just finished reading the novel Treasure Island since I know it is based upon it.
Soon, some anon has declared his most benevolent intention to bless us with the BD, along with soft-subs translated from French into English
That's exciting, I just hope I will live long enough to see S2 get subbed completely and possibly even for Shin to get a BD rip.
Utena has the best texts from last night.
I'd be satisfied with even just a better encode, to be honest.
Utena and TFLN are just made for each other.
Where the hell do I get this bumper sticker?
By the way, what the hell with Penguindrum manga? No scans, no translations, no discussions. I'm totally confused why it's abosulutely ignored. More than half a year since it's released.
got the new album download and a bumper sticker in this thread. utena bros truly delivering