Explain this shit to me please

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>>158446285
They all want to cause the Third Impact, but they all want to be personally in control of it for differing reasons, except Rei, who wants to put Shinji in charge.

They believe it can be controlled or regulated by the one who initiates it. Personally I think that is just hubris.

>>158446365
>>158446408
But doesn't Gendo's plan of merging Rei (Lilith's soul) with the Adam fetus also put Rei in control?

Seele want to become a new god, Gendo wants to take it over, Rei takes what Gendo had prepared for himself and gifts it to Shinji.

Rei can't maintain her human form anymore but at least she can make a choice, what give her some humanity back

gendo didnt get tanged he just died.

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>>158446285
We don't know what Gendo wanted (other than to presumably reunite with Yui in some way), but Rei's actions foiled it. That's why.

We don't know exactly what Seele wanted, other than what they stated which was to evolve humanity a new being. It's not clear to what extent the version of HI that Shinji started conforms to Seele's desires, although at one point in EoE they seemed pretty confident they won. However, whatever Gendo wanted was definitely foiled.

>>158446628
Rei has the power, but Gendo would use/control her to get what he wants. Rei sees this and uses the power for what she wants instead.

>>158447659
>at one point in EoE they seemed pretty confident they won
They say that, but it's immediately before they're tanged. They saw their fantasy coming to collect them like everyone did.

>>158447925
But being tanged might have been exactly their goal, we really don't know how closely Shinji's version of HIP aligns with Seele's intended version in the anime. Presumably they wouldn't have wanted the "people are allowed to leave" caveat but that's just conjecture

>>158447659
>We don't know what Gendo wanted (other than to presumably reunite with Yui in some way)
There is no "other than", that is Gendo's objective in its entirety.

Think of it like when you had to do the gameshow board game in Banjo-Kazooie. It's exactly like that.

>>158448216
holy shit

>>158448183
No, his goals were also presumably to finish Yui's goals in some way after she went into the Eva, although it's not clear if him failing was what Yui intended or Yui just adjusted her course of action last minute. But it's clear he was trying to finish Yui's work in some way because that's why Fuyutsuki was even involved

Gendo's goals were an absolute mystery. So are Yui's.

>>158448166
exactly, up until that point everything was indeed according to that plan, however after that shinji realized being tanged is not a good world, that separation and pain is necessary, and thus gave everyone the option to return back, essential making the whole "we become one" point moot as far as Seele goes

>>158448673
But we don't know for sure if Seele really cared if people left or not. We also don't know if HIP as it happened was what they wanted in the first place.

From a writing structure perspective it's implied that the events as you describe them is what happened, but there's no real evidence for that, because Seele's stated goals were so vague and they had like 4 different scenarios with which it could occur

>>158446285
>So how exactly did Rei "stand up" to Gendo here?
By not letting him have his way.

Rei doesn't want third impact in itself.

>>158448823
>Rei doesn't want third impact in itself

That's not true, Rei just realized she doesn't have to do whatever Gendo says. So she did what she wanted to do, which was ask Shinji. There's no reason to assume she gave a shit if Third impact occurred either way

>>158447731
sums it up.

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>>158448216
>it actually is exactly like that

Is the third rebuild movie any good?

>>158448900
Because there's no reason to assume Rei doesn't care, and because we've seen Rei care about humanity before, there's no reason to assume that she doesn't care.

What we know from the series is that Rei does care about returning to her original self, and that she cares about Shinji. Rei's motivation in a lot of this is precisely helping Shinji as well, and later she helps him get out of his funk and undo what he's done.

>>158448303
>>158448997
as someone who never played it, what is it about?

>>158449000
No, it's unironically the worst Evangelion movie ever made.

>>158448166
It was, just not like that. They didn't care about Gendo having Lilith or the Adam sample at all, they wanted Unit 01 and they were yanking it around from the outside. They saw what they wanted instead of that Rei had overtaken everything and it was all out of their control.

>>158449000
The only good parts of the third Rebuild are the parts money bought, like Sagisu Shiro's paycheck. Otherwise it's as if they deliberately tried to make a bad movie and then later tried to cover it up with otaku pandering so at least the hardcore fans (think asukafags, kaworufags in this particular run) would have reason to buy the merchandise and pretend its still good. As a movie it's just downright bad.

>>158449000
It's excellent. The fact that so many criticize it shows how little they ever understood about Eva or Anno's intentions

>>158449289
>It's shit. The fact that some still praise it shows how little they ever understood about Eva or Anno's intentions

FTFY

>>158449289
>It's being called out for being shit, therefore it's good!
Top contrarian mate.

>>158448166
>>158448900
I think that because Rei started to convince Shinji to abort instrumentality, she cant have wanted it to happen.

>>158449755
Rei was still doing it. She didn't lead Shinji to any conclusion, she answered him honestly and noted where he contradicted himself. He can have whatever he really wishes for but he doesn't get to deceive himself.

I have a theory about gendo's plan, and have some stuff to back it up.

Seele, at some moment (cant remember the episode / movie), upon realizing that gendo is about to betray them, say this line "We have no intention of giving up our human forms simply to enter the ark called Eva". I assume they are talking about Gendos plan (who else?)

What does it mean? Pretty simple:
>The eva they are talking about is clearly 01. Gendo wants to go back to yui in 01, and apparently he cant do it alone, and everyone else would be tanged and forced into that too, otherwise Seele wouldnt care.
>"Simply" implies it isnt enough, so they want more than that. As they are fine with using Eva 01 to trigger instrumentality in EoE, i think the thing that isnt enough is "ARK".
>"Ark" implies travel and something possibly temporary (in noah's story he they did leave it eventually). That is Yui's desire. Gendo somehow realized what Yui was doing (probably fuyutsuki realized first and told him). As Gendo is deperate, he chooses to roll with it. In one of the last episodes he looks to 01 and say "Our plan is about to be completed". Bullshit, it was always Yui's plans and he is just trying to tag along with Yui. We see it in EoE, as she "rejects" and kills him during instrumentality.
>Finally, maybe people would eventually leave 01 if it crashed in another planet, or something like that (the temporary aspect of an ark), maybe not. I strongly believe the idea of "Leaving instrumentality" wasnt in Seele's plans at all.

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>>158446365
>"no way someone would be stupid enough to mimic Shinji"
>check WikiHow
>it's an actual article
>mfw
Is this some elaborate ruse?

>>158448472
Gendo scrapped every previous goal he had when Yui disappeared. After she was gone, all he turned his sights on was reuniting with her. Fuyutsuki makes this clear by addressing Gendo's behavior after Yui's "death".

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>>158451591
Nah. Gendo disappeared for a week after the failed salvage operation, then he starts talking about the Human Instrumentality Project he's just proposed to Seele and Fuyutsuki already knows what it is.

>>158446285
Too deep for you?

>>158452566
Maybe

>>158449289
Anno never intended to make the rebuilds originaly. Besides money, we dont know what drove him to do it, because the story still incomplete.

Given how he dont seen much enthusiastic in finishing said story, i think we are in a bad spot already.

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Try making sense of this part. Fucking incongruous to everything written after it.

>>158454259
What do you have a problem understanding here?

>>158453898
>Anno never intended to make the rebuilds originaly.
He planned them back in early 2000s.

>>158447659
>We don't know what Gendo wanted
>We don't know exactly what Seele wanted, other than what they stated which was to evolve humanity a new being

I wish all Eva fans were as honest as you. Too many fail to comprehend the uncertainty that naturally falls out of the potential for so many contradictions.

>>158455229
>I don't know so it must mean everyone else doesn't
You should just try watching the show without typing playing a game on the other half of the screen next time. There's such a thing as actually paying attention to what's on screen.

>>158455417
Anon is right though, a lot of things in Eva were left ambiguous and unexplained.
For fuck's sake, Anno needed to make a video game just to clarify some of the more glaring plot holes.

>>158455778
But those things were explained in the anime. Also, the games didn't explain anything important that wasn't explained in the anime.

>>158455778
>Anno needed to make a video game
He didn't intend to make a game nor did he participate in its production. All the info in the game was taken from his interviews.

>>158455778
They used that promise to market a game. The plot isn't resolvable because it was under constant revision while in progress to create twists. The goal was making a mystery that would get attention, defying prediction was more important than coherence.

>>158451524
WikiHow seems to have turned into Amateur Comic Club

>>158456494
Now that's some major bullshit. There is a summary for Eva from two years earlier that presents a synopsis almost identical to what happened in the show. It just changes the location of the last episode and some of the names. The nature and relations between all the characters and all the supernatural elements is the same.

Stop looking for excuses. If YOU didn't get it, then that 's it. It's not that the plot is incoherent, YOU just didn't understand it.

>>158456029
Yeah, right.
Go on and point me to where in the Anime they explain why only 14 year olds can pilot.

>>158456538
>only 14 year olds
They aren't piloting because of their age, they're piloting because the souls of their dead mothers are inside the Evas and they can only synchronize with their own children

>>158456572
We know that, what we don't know is why they didn't just get an adult with a dead mother to pilot it. Or even a teen.

>>158456597
>fourteen year old
>not a teen

>>158456537
I tend to agree with him. NGE was incoherent.

>>158456597

Did you managed to miss who souls were inside of each EVA?

Remember when Rei tried to pilot 01?

>>158456597
In Shinji's case his mother knew that SEELE will try to kill her so she decided to become Unit 01 herself. I don't know if she knew that only Shinji will be able to pilot it (she probably did), but that's how it is. In Asuka's case, her mother wanted to plant only a part of her soul into the Eva, but she went nuts afterwards. Asuka was actually trained to become a good pilot, so there were no problems, except for her childhood trauma, which was a coincidence. In Shinji's case, Gendo was either an idiot who put too much faith in berserk mode, or he was simply an idiot who didn't think about training a pilot. It turned out he wanted Rei to pilot Unit 01, but she was crippled n' shit.

>>158456665
They had the ability to rewrite cores dumbass.

>>158456572
People have already asnwered you, but honestly. What explanation do you have for yourself? Were you just too lazy to search for explanations or rewatch the show? Are you the kind of person that will whine every time they can't do some task and say it's impossible to do, even though others have clearly accomplished it? Were you just trolling? What is it?

>>158456722

Nope.

They override 01 because Shinji doesnt want to fight 03 and they only managed to do that once, the override no longer works.

In fact unit 03 is the oddball since its never mentioned who's soul was in(well because Toji is dead I guess).

Besides thats irrelevant in the long term as SEELE was going with the Dummy Plug system for the mass production EVA units and were meant to be unmanned.

>>158456869
Are you sure you're replying to a right post?

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>>158456537
Yeah, that's Proposal. That version of the plot had FAR as a terrestrial civilization destroyed by their Evangelion, Adam, and another race that made Longinus, the Angels, and the Dead Sea Scrolls to stop it and keep it from happening again. They were already straying away from the original premise in the first episode but didn't completely abandon it until almost the end to add the Seeds of Life premise. Eva was written the same way Lost was but had the good fortune of more artistry behind it and ending faster, you're free now.

>>158456877
You need a rewatch.
They explicitly say they can rewrite the cores. That's why everyone in Shinji's class was a potential pilot.

>>158456537
Not even the staff knew where the show was going in the middle of the run.
It was insanely incoherent, get over it.

The only fault is the bad writing and execution, not the viewer.

>>158456982
Shit, didn't Anno admit pretty freely he didn't know what Instrumentality was going to be when he included it?

>>158456956

Nope.

They try to use the dummy plug system but its not compatible for the obvious reason.

They cannot "rewrite the cores" because EVA 01-03 are literally clones of Lilith with a human soul stuck on them, they cannot change a damn thing ... they can trick then with the Dummy Plug but that doesnt go far.

Its clear you havent payed attention because a lot is just misdirection. the real truth is they are following the Dead Sea Scrolls that say how shit is supposed to go down, that is until Gendo starts to get very "creative" about it (such as 01 getting a S2 engine by eating a Angel) forcing SEELE to having to attack Geofront to get it back on track when they run out of options.

Can someone explain to me how the Evas are all like parts of the pilot's mother? I know in EoE one of Asuka's last lines hints/confirms this and Unit 1 moved on its own to protect Shinji. Is there anything else I should be looking at?

>>158456930
How does the original location of the FAR change anything? The only thing that changes here is that Adam and Lilith had originated from the same source, which stays consistent throughout the same show.
>>158456982
Nope sorry, it's the lazy viewer at fault here. Sure, if no one thought it was coherent, then something would be odd here. But the fact that most people comprehend the lore of the show and YOU don't, just means you're the problem here.

Also, how do you explain the fact that episode one has parts that were explained only in the last scenes of EoE. If there was no planning, there would be zero rewatch value to the whole thing.

>>158457114
- The whole flashback episode has Shinji's mother dissolving while doing an experiment on Eva 01
- Gendo often speaks to Eva 01, refering to her as Yui
- Shinji sees his mother a few times in the Eva, during the more trippy scenes, like when he was swollowed by that multi-dimensional angel.
- Eva 01 protects Shinji specifically from danger.
- In EoE Yui actually talks to Shinji and mentions her being the soul of Eva 01

>>158449055
2.22 has it beat by a small margin.

Is this video right ? or it is complete bullshit ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho07Ag6lV9g

>>158457412
Seems about right. I made a pannel recently in a convention summing up the whole story of Eva. Though I used specific evidence and got the same overall story. Though it misses some specifics, but doesn't get anything wrong.

>>158457528
just one question, why the fuck shinji jake off to asuka and why does he choke her in EoE

>>158457085
Rewriting the cores has nothing to do with the dummy plug system. Ritsuko even says in episode 24 that were going to rewrite Unit 02's core.

Only Eva unit 01 is a clone of Lilith. The others are all clones of Adam.

>Its clear you havent payed attention
You're the one that just got all this basic shit wrong. Rewatch the show.

>>158450451
Still doing what? The instrumentality process was kickstarted before, Rei only assimilated herself into to process so she could help Shinji.

>>158457259
>implying
2.22 is the best EVA movie after EoE. 3.33 is utter and complete garbage only a blind otaku could like.

>>158452566
>meaningless shit and plot holes
>hurrrr it's just 2deep4uuuuuuuuuuu!!!!!
Annofags are incorrigible

>>158457625
> why the fuck shinji jake
He was borderline mental at this point. Kaji died and Misato cut himself off him. Rei died and then came back and he found out she was a clone. Toji left after he almost killed him and then wouldn't look at him, when he tried to apologize. Kaworu offered him love and he had to kill him. The guy always tried to find some closeness. He thought Asuka might be the only one so went to her but she was obviously in a coma. He wanted to talk to her and then her breasts showed. He on the one hand did hate her, but also did find her attractive, even if just physically. So in his frustration he just jerked off to her.

I mean it's just how people will sometimes jerk off to pictures of their ex, even if they left them or are mad at them. It's a combination of frustration, seeking to relieve tension and the fact that the person is still attractive to them. It's not rational, but it is understandable.

>why does he choke her in EoE
Remember that he chokes her two times. Try rewatching that first scene, where instrumentality starts. In fact that scene itself is somewhat of a repeat of another scene from the series. But I think just watching that should be enough for you to get it.

>>158446285
It's very simple.
Everyone in Eva just wanted to get laid.

>>158457800
No one yet pointed out even one plot hole in this thread and people have given tons of explanation. The problem isn't depth, is laziness on the side of people like you, or just an irrational hatred towards anything that causes confusion in you. Of course for lots of people, idiots like you are useful. You never try to understand anything complex, so you're less of a competition for others.

>>158457950
The people in eva that did get laid, still had problems.

>>158457977
A plot hole is why did they only use 14 year old kids as pilots

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>>158457625
Who the fuck is jake?

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>>158457977
>The problem isn't depth
Are we talking about the same Evangelion?

>>158458015
Someone literally asked the same question above and got an answer.

>>158458082
No one could provide an answer.

>>158458073
What I mean, is anything is to some degree deep. But this is art, not quantom physics. With some effort, like rewatching the show you'll get it. The only reason you wouldn't be able to do that is being lazy or just getting too easily mad about anything that's confusing. That's why the problem isn't depth.

>>158458101
I see answers. But I'll summarize. Yui put her soul into Eva of her own volition. First they tried to use a clone of her but it got destroyed. They used that clone to create unit 00 and another clone that was able to pilot it. They tried it with her and eva 01 first, but there were also problems. So in the end they summoned Shinji. Asuka was specifically trained to pilot Eva 02 and it had only part of her soul in it.

>>158458228
This still doesn't explain why they didn't just use an older person and their dead mother into an Eva unit
All the other potential pilots were made 14 as well

>>158458228
>First they tried to use a clone of her but it got destroyed. They used that clone to create unit 00
Interesting. Did you just come up with it now? Because it's not represented by anything in NGE.

>>158458275
Two kids were the children of scientists who worked together. Kaworu was created as a result of the 1st impact, Rei was a clone and started being developed after the death of Yui.

Adults become independent from their parents and aren't as attached to them, neither are parents as protective of them. Younger kids would be on the other hand even less capable than teenagers.

>>158457792
>ruined characterization
>ruined angel fight (Unit-03 specifically)
>absolutely retarded ending that goes completely against what NGE was all about
>the awful attempts at shock by having the singing during the gore
It's the worst single thing out of NGE and the Rebuilds.

>>158458448
You didn't see the scene were Rei was strangled to death? I recommend actually watching the show next time.

>>158458549

I am trying to remember, that was Rei-1 since that was the first one right?

>>158458275
Asuka's mom was an accident. Yui being absorbed into unit 01 was part of her plan (whatever her plan was), hence Shinji and Asuka wound up being the only viable options. I'm sure you can come up with some Freudian reasons as to why they needed teenagers specifically if you wanted to.

That being said, the real reason they're 14 is because they were using the trope of teenagers piloting robots deliberately. You might be forgetting amidst the memeification of the word "deconstruction," but there was a genuine attempt to do to mecha what Watchmen did to superheros (take the tropes and expose them to reality - whether that really counts as deconstruction is debatable). That could've been integrated into the story better. Another flaw along similar lines is that they had no reason to wait for the last minute to call Shinji. They knew for a decade that he would be a potential Eva pilot, and they didn't send him through any training or anything, even if as only a backup plan

>>158458549
I remember that, but no idea where you got any of that from Naoko seeing a Rei for the first time in 2010, 6 years after Yui died.

>>158458591

I dont think that was a " backup plan", it was deliberate to make Yui awake by putting him in danger.

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>>158458639
What are you talking about? When you strangle people to death, they aren't alive. I don't think the show really needed to elaborate on that.
>>158458575
Yup, her soul was then used in Eva 00.

>>158458653
No, Shinji was kind of option 2 after Lilith didn't really work out

>>158458696
>her soul was then used in Eva 00

Half

>>158458591
Any evidence for Eva trying to be a deconstruction? It's a dark mecha show, like many that came before. It's just more remembered because it was more consistent and had more artistry and craft behind it than something like Ideon, Guyver, Gundam or Votoms.

Also, the reason they are teenagers is that they are old enough to be functional pilots, but still young enough to be highly attached to their mothers. Thing how attached a 14 year old is to their parents compared to a 30 year old who meets them a lot less by them, is independent from them and might even have his own family.

>>158446365
>Do not watch or read Evangelion if you are under 16. It is a series meant for older audiences, depicting violence and adult content
>older audiences
This shit's hilarious.

>>158457141
>But the fact that most people comprehend the lore of the show

Only on a very vague high level. The specifics of the characters and their knowledge and motivations are suspect on multiple levels. It's really not simple at all to pin this shit down given the vagueness of the viewer's knowledge on why shit is the way it is and their willingness to accept any given statement at face value as opposed to considering it suspect in context.

>>158446285
Bad writing.

>>158458925
Gendo wanted to revive Yui

SEELE claimed they wanted a world without pain and suffering. We know Keel wanted immortality, he's been prolonging his life with cybernetics.

Each wanted to be in control of instumentality.

Rei opposed Gendo and gave Shinji the ability to control instrumentality.

I mean you can have other theories, but this is what we know from the show.

Why was Kaji killed?

>>158458805
The fact that it's dark is not why I say it's a deconstruction, just that it takes the specific tropes and tries to expose them to how they wouldn't work in reality (same way Watchmen did). Calling your son for the first time in years to demand him to pilot some dangerous creepy robot thing? Maybe he doesn't want to. Gung-ho, courageous teenagers ready to save the world? No, real teenagers are more whiny and selfish. Putting teenagers together in the same tiny apartment for training purposes? Maybe they don't develop the healthiest of relationships. And it also minorly explores the sociopolitical effects a bioweapon program might have, like Watchmen explores the sociopolitical effects a vigilante justice program might.

Again, I don't think "deconstruction" is the right word, but the way it goes about examining different tropes and creating a universe by taking these tropes to the extreme is what Watchmen did. It's the only anime that does this I think, certainly other stuff being termed "deconstructionist" like HxH or Madoka does not. It doesn't have any to do with the darkness

>>158459030
Gendo did not want to revive Yui, it's just that whatever his plan was involved reuniting with her in some way. I mean, you can't revive her when she's not dead. That's all we know for sure about Gendo's plan - it's not clear whether he was acting as a free agent or being manipulated by Yui. Yui's plan is an absolute mystery, it's possible everything that happened was part of her design, or none of it was

Seele actually gave us more specific information than that, they stated they wanted to evolve humanity to the next level. Whether what happens conformed to their expectations in the anime is unknowable

The fact is, a lot of Eva lore is incredibly vague, especially regarding characters' intentions regarding the TI. There were several different versions of instrumentality and several different ways to trigger it, and we don't know exactly how any of them would've worked other than the version that happened. It's not even clear if Gendo's plan would've triggered a third impact scenario

>>158459030
Yes, and I don't oppose any of this. The point is that we've basically established in this thread that there are significant unknowns that people have fundamentally different interpretations of where there's no simple way to determine what is actually the case, and there's a lot more of this.

We know Gendo wanted to revive Yui, but it's hard to pin down what level of keikaku he's actually playing on when you look at all the shit he says and does throughout the series. Can we even tell if he's really a scared, negligent father or if he's deliberately putting his son in these situation unprepared for the sake of an ulterior motive and pretending otherwise? This is really basic shit I've seen no clear explanation of.

>Rei opposed Gendo and gave Shinji the ability to control instrumentality.

But we don't know what she knows about Gendo, or to what extend she specifically opposes what he wants or how or why or to what extend she'd comprehend the outcome of this. We have only the vaguest notion of what's going on in her head, and as far as I can tell this is deliberate.

>I mean you can have other theories

That's a bit of a fucking understatement. Basic aspects of why shit happens the way it does are up in the air and you're just describing a skeleton of things we can actually reasonably be sure of despite all the ambiguity surrounding them.

>>158458520
This. Only waifufags think 2.22 was a good movie.

>>158459127
Eva was not originally in the slighest.
Everything it did was done many times by Anime before it.

>>158459472
>Can we even tell if he's really a scared, negligent father
He practically confirms this in his death scene in EoE

>>158459577
what anime did 25+26 before EVA?

>>158459591
Gendo is effectively what Shinji would've turned into if he didn't have the whole Eva and HIP experience

>>158459679
You don't know if Shinji would've had a dead wife

But really, Gendo didn't have a plan. He thought had had, but he was just following Yui's blueprint. Instrumentality didn't have any meaning for him other than "reuniting", it only had meaning for Yui (who was a psychopath).

When Rei rejects him in EoE she leaves him out of Instrumentality and ends his chances of getting back with Yui. That's it.

>>158459736
Huh? I just meant personality-wise Shinji would've turned into Gendo if he didn't learn to change during the events of the story. Eventually not caring about connecting with people at all, just getting used to being disliked, treating his own son the same way he was treated probably.

>>158459127
Watchmen is different, Alan Moore specifically mentioned what his goal was. With Anno it wasn't the same case, since mecha wasn't as restricted of a genre. Gundam, Ideon, Guyver, Votoms, Zambot and other shows before had characters and mainly treenagers being traumatized through mecha fights. Barely any mecha by the time of Eva, had a plot about saving the world. In fact before it, there was a series called "King of Braves" which actually tried to bring the tropes you mentioned back, since they were dead for over fifteen years by then.
>>158459239
Semantics, he wated to be together with her. I didn't use the word "revive" to signify the specificality of the relationship he wanted with her. He did want to be together with her, and he wasn't content with it being through a purple can.

It's not vague in the sense that we don't know what's going on. It's just that it tends to hold off exposition and not produce it in huge doses, like most anime tends to do. But we can create a pretty clear view of what happened and the relationship between all the supernatural elements.
>>158459472
Gendo explains his relationship with Shinji to the degree he understands himself. He's still just a fuckin human, no real life human can be 100% precise in elaborating their whole psyche. This doesn't happen in almost any other show either, unless it's super tropish and aimed at kids.

We still know more about the Eva characters, their motivations and psychology more than just about any characters from any other visual media of that length.

>>158459577
What had the visualized, surreal introspective scenes like in Eva? I mean like the ones where angels penetrate the psyche of their characters? What had the same kind of frantic editing as it?

>>158459836
>We still know more about the Eva characters, their motivations and psychology
Yeah because they fucking spoonfeed it to you in the last two episodes like we're some kind of retards who can't figure it out for ourselves.
Eva had really shitty writing.

>>158459836
don't the good guys always end up winning in those shows?
>Ideon
in Ideon the tanging is treated as a good thing and the end-goal.

Why was I supposed to be sad over Nagisa's death?

>>158459883
MTV.

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>>158459910

>>158459910
It's not about what you felt, it's about what Shinji felt.

>>158459910
You aren't, you're supposed to empathize with Shinji even when he's being stupid.

>>158459591
And I'm not willing to just take that at face value and assuming he's being totally honest considering all the other shit I don't know about him. I've seen plenty of people claim otherwise and support their positions.

>>158459836
I don't care about "100% elaboration", I just have little reason to believe that an apparent mastermind of his caliber would flat out completely neglect his own son's welfare, be so cold to him and accept the risk this means for his own project for no reason other than being a failure of a pussy like that.

>>158459817
His actions everywhere else suggest a combination of deliberate malice and competence in a way that someone who basically cares about human life, like Shinji, would be extremely unlikely to act out.

>>158459836
>Alan Moore specifically mentioned what his goal

Anno has also spoken extensively about his goals and how he sees his fanbase, and it's very similar to stuff Moore has said. The only significant difference between the two is that Watchmen focused on the societal effects where as NGE focused on the individual psychological effects, which you can also see reflected in what the authors said in real life. Anno clearly made NGE to criticize the mindset of the otaku, just like Moore made Watchmen to satirize the mindset of the comic book nerd.

And (I haven't seen all of them) but Gundam, Ideon, and VOTOMS don't do what NGE did, at all. It isn't just that it's dark or that the characters are traumatized, it's that NGE specifically went through the list of tropes one by one and exposed the hypocrisies inherent in them and showed how they don't hold up to reality (mostly by examining the psychological effects), and then used these hypocrisies to craft the universe (like Watchmen). Also, saying those shows have characterized traumatized to the same degree as Eva is really an overstatement

>>158460174
>And I'm not willing to just take that at face value
You should. It's both true in real life and even truer in fiction that people on their deathbed are completely honest; it's especially a typical trope for characters like Gendo who are otherwise facetious, secretive or enigmatic. He's also (thinking he is) talking to Yui in that scene, and he has no reason to talk with second intentions to her.

>>158459836
>We still know more about the Eva characters, their motivations and psychology more than just about any characters from any other visual media of that length.

Ikuhara's animes destroy Anno's in terms of actually elaborating on the subtleties of their characters' psychology and motives along with their use of symbolism ad writing to develop something thematically coherent.

>>158460237
>He's also (thinking he is) talking to Yui in that scene, and he has no reason to talk with second intentions to her.

That's exactly what I do suspect though, that Yui is the one person who he wants to think well of him more than anything else and who he'd be terrified of understanding the truth and knowing that for eternity. I'd believe that he's sociopath enough to think like that. You can disagree, but don't act with such certainty.

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Why didn't he just speak up?

>>158459884
Only the first of those episodes does it. It's basically a recap or a shorter Death and Rebirth. That's why we got End of Evangelion
>>158459896
You're just talking about a pessimistic ending? Devilman had it far worse then, Eva is actually positive in that Shinji and Asuka are alive and free from their previous problems.
>>158459922
Didn't The Maxx air the same year? I was talking about anime anyhow, if we're talking in general, lots of live-action films had that.
>>158460197
A critque of the otaku maybe, but not of the genre. I also don't see how it's an understatment? In Devilman the character sees his girlfiend being beheaded and put on a stake. He also actually loses and his friend who becomes the evil guy wins. How is Eva worse than that?

Eva just had more introspective scenes, tighter direction and writing but that's it. None of the ideas were fundamentally different from anything that appeared before. The only common thing to the mecha genre is that it all featured robots. That's litereally it, they weren't even all big and all piloted from inside or all in-organic. When it came to the characters and stories, there were absolutely no rules and several trends.

>>158460240
Nah, in Utena we find out about most characters inner thoughts. But we don't get into the backgrounds behind the characters, besides three of them. We also don't see the how similar traumas manifest in parents as in their children. Utena is a masterpiece but Eva went just a few levels deeper. It also didn't have to rely on so much repetition. I know it's justified in Utena, but if it wasn't there at all, it wouldn't even need to be justified.

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Even Anno and the staff said Evangelion is just a ripoff of the Anime before it.
It did nothing new with the tropes or execution.

>>158460585
With the tropes it didn't with the execution it definitely did.

>>158460465
>A critque of the otaku maybe, but not of the genre

Criticizing the mindset of the people who consume the genre is the same as criticizing the genre, since it's their mindset that determines what ideas and themes are reflected in the genre

>I also don't see how it's an understatment

It's because you're too focused on some concept of darkness or edginess, which has nothing to do with the extent to which the characters are psychologically hung up, which EVA clearly far surpasses Devilman in and just about anything else

>Eva just had more introspective scenes

You hand wave that off when that's like 90% of the point (the other 10% being the small amount of social realism injected into Eva). You're being deliberately obstinate at this point. Ideon and Devilman don't construct a universe using the hypocrisies inherent in classic mecha tropes like Eva did.

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>>158460650
Nope.

>>158460748
>Similar shots in one scene = same execution
You are either trolling or dont know what execution means. Execution includes pacing, animation quality, sound design, and so much more.

>>158460237
Yui's talking to him, but Gendo's staring dead ahead and there isn't anybody there when he starts. I read it as EVA-01 was what he was seeing the whole time and he's being real, confessing his sins.

Eva is about interpersonal relationships. The characters even mention it several time. It's the Hedgehog's Dilemma.

That's it.

>>158461121
Thats not the point of the thread, moron. Everyone know what it "is about", it doesn't mean the world building parts are neglegible.

Im gonna bump my explanation of gendos plan: >>158451436

>>158460748
Then show me one anime, with visualized introspective scenes? Usually thoughts were just shown by having a stillshot and closup on the characters face with a voice over of what they are thinking. It was never visualized in a stream of consciousness like manner.

>>158459679
>this meme again
So retarded.

>>158461056
Which were all things Eva sucked at. Except the sound design.

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>>158461240
>thoughts were just shown by having a stillshot and closup on the characters face with a voice over of what they are thinking
That's exactly what they did in 25/26.

And I just showed you one of those scenes.

>>158449336
>>158449445
He probably read that pasta about how Anno is giving his fans the middle finger but as >>158453898 mentioned he hasn't felt like doing that lately.

Although getting to direct Godzilla was a chance I don't think he'd pass up even if it was confirmed rebuild was to spite people.

>>158462809
Most of what Anno does is simply just an exercise in self-service. Never forget that Anno is at heart, a giant manchild. Anno does give fans the middle finger, but only fans that upset him. He doesn't like Rei or Rei fans because they made Rei more popular than his favorite, Asuka. It explains why every one of his works drops serious portrayal of the characters and instead focuses on rewriting EVA to better suit Asuka and his other favorites, whilst denigrating Rei and her role in the story.

This is one way of giving fans "the middle finger", Anno's passive-aggressiveness which is a stable of not just otaku, but the japanese.

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>>158463010
Reifags are the biggest manchildren. They deserve everything that happens to them.

>>158463181
...said the crazy Asuka fan. I think that people such as you get so angry and jealous over other liking a character different from your favorite, is the only crime here. Besides, whatever you think isn't relevant.

https://web.archive.org/web/20021224003127/http://www.animedorks.com/issues/10/evae.html

>>158460465
>his friend who becomes the evil guy wins
>wins
nah, he also loses.

but devilman is THE main inspiration for EVA, the other guy was talking about tominocrap

They all wanted to be in control of what happens, Rei wants Shinji. Shinji does what Seele wants, but then reneges it to some kind of compromise, where people who want to come back, come back.

>>158463456
I wont read it all right now but im already pissed.
He said that a bunch of nip directors criticized 25 and 26 for glorifying otaku and hikiness.

What the fuck. How dense do you need to be to misunderstand the ending that hard? How can you get a career in entertainment and become a director being this dumb?

Did people had THAT much trouble understanding eva back then during release?

>>158463456
>>158463761
It's a shitpost posted on animedorks. People were dumb back then too. Just as dumb as this guy >>158463181

Things were bad then too.

Shinji was the first person to treat her like a human being rather than a science experiment. Even Gendo never truly cared about her, rather he showed varying concern for her well-being as a result of her connection to Yui.

>>158463936
*pressed Enter too soon

When asked to entrust a single person with the fate of humanity, it is only natural that she would choose someone who she perceived as being humanity at its best, rather than at its most cynical.

For all his failings, Shinji was always pure in his intentions.

>>158463936
>>158464036
There's also how Rei has by that point become completely disenchanted with Gendo. Same goes for Shinji, who has long since lost the interest in his father's approval.

>>158449000
Well my verdict on it will depend on 3.0+1.0.
Since so many things that happened during the ellipse aren't explained, there are plotholes everywhere. It feels more like a setup for 3.0+1.0
than one of the Rebuild Of Evangelion movies in and of itself.
So yeah, wait and see. I liked the friendship bewteen Shinji and Kaworu even if it was a bit homo. And I still don't understand how gendo manages to stay alive even though he sees the motherfucking apocalypse on a daily basis.

I generally have a weird feeling I can't explain when there are big ellipses in shows, pls explain it to me.
>tfw INTP

>>158464314
>Well my verdict on it will depend on 3.0+1.0.
AKA "I know 3.33 is a extremely bad movie but refuse to say so because I'm biased".

>>158464314
Congratulations, you are unable to see the forest for the trees.

>>158464366
>>158464430

>CURRENT YEAR
>PEOPLE DONT AGREE WITH ME
WOW
I CAN'T BELIEVE IT'S THE
>CURENT YEAR
AND PEOPLE DONT REALIZE IM OBJECTIVELY RIGHT ON MY WAY TO SEE ART

WOW

REALLY

So the angels' objective was to rescue lilith?

>>158464463
It's entirely possible to be objectively wrong about art, or in this case, a movie. When you say your opinion of 3.33 will depend on a different movie, you're committing to a logical error that also invalidates your opinion.

No one watched End of Evangelion and thought "mwell, my opinion on this film will depend on the remake series that will come a decade down the line from now". What you have is nothing at all, it's not even an opinion, it's just rubbish. You're claiming that your opinion is that you have no opinion, don't you see the paradox here?

Basically 3.33 was utter shit, but something about you pleased you, which makes you unable to be honest about 3.33. Whatever you liked about 3.33, it must be more embarrasing than making up a fake opinion and posting it on an anonymous imageboard.

>>158464563
To merge with her and fix the 'mistake' that resulted in humans.

>>158464602
Seeing what direction Anno takes it will make it clearer whether it was shitty writing or pieces moving on the board.

It sounds like you've made up your mind based upon the crowd and are terrified of anything that might shatter your belief.

>>158446285
>Same goes for seele turning on nerv, didn't both organisations have the same endgame?

No. Gendo wanted to reunite with Yui, but he would have ignored the rest of humanity. Thus "death gives birth to nothing" and SEELE turning on him because he wasn't going to go through with their version of Instrumentality.

Of course, he might have Tanged everyone as an unexpected side effect anyway.

>>158464628
Angels aren't that unified, or smart for that matter. Fuck the Angels, Humans reign supreme.

>>158463881
it's an essay by a japanese dude from 1999, don't mind the site

>>158463761
you are misunderstanding the misunderstanding, probably

>>158464723
>Angels aren't that unified, or smart for that matter.

They're preprogrammed, guided by an artificially instilled instinct.

>>158464628
>>158464563
no, angels wanted to merge with adam but they were basically babies and also mistook lilith for adam (see kaworu).

lilith = humans
adam = angels

>>158464563
No, it was to merge back to adam. But from what we seen Kaworu doing, while they can feel the presence of the seeds (adam and lilith) they cant say which is which from afar, so they keep ending up around lilith.

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>>158464099
Rei still remembers him with some fondness. And I just now noticed she picks up his sunglasses and they turn into his first pair, the ones he had before the browline frame that she kept. A memento of older times before she had to pilot.

>>158461920
Yeah, every anime has that. Evangelion ALSO has it. I mean you don't need a scene like that every time. But it also did go out of its way to go a bit deeper and visualise the characters thoughts several times in the second half.

If you can't show any anime series that did it before then you're admiting that Eva did something other anime didn't do before.

>>158464602
>It's entirely possible to be objectively wrong about art
you must be 18 to browse this website.
Also,
The End of Evangelion is complete, Rebuild Of Evangelion is not.
>what you have is nothing at all, it's not even an opinion, it's just rubbish
I liked the characters and scene, but I stay sceptic regarding the plot, it might be setup as it might be utter shit Anno couldn't explain in a thousand years.
You are basically saying that you can determine if a story's scenario is shit without knowing is fully, this is how retarded you are, probably unironically.
>it must be more embarrasing than making up a fake opinion and posting it on an anonymous imageboard
>everyone who disagrees with me is a troll
>argument invalidated xD

So yeah I don't see anything valuable in your post.

>>158464683
Also this

>>158464763
Kaworu and some of the last angels seemed to have intelligence.

They still likely have strong instinctive drive to return to adam, which would trigger an impact and probably kill all the humans left, so they are incompatible with us, but i wouldn't say they are evil or want our harm.

>>158464683
>Seeing what direction Anno takes it will make it clearer whether it was shitty writing or pieces moving on the board.

You can tell right now. Rebuild is almost a decade old now. Are you telling me you need more than ten years to tell what direction things have been going in?

>It sounds like you've made up your mind based upon the crowd and are terrified of anything that might shatter your belief.

Not at all, I've done the "math" so to speak. I'm not afraid to say 3.33 is garbage right here and now. Whatever 3.0+1.0 is, it's isolated to that movie alone. 3.33 will always remain as shitty as it has been. If you want to disagree with this, I'm going to call you out.

Why do you think otherwise? Because right now, it would seem to me that you've made up your mind based on nothing.

>>158464908
>Kaworu and some of the last angels seemed to have intelligence.

My headcanon is that Kaworu is actually dumb as a box of hammers and is just acting on preprogrammed instinct because his task was never to trigger Third Impact but instead to break Shinji.

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>>158464908
>i wouldn't say they are evil or want our harm

>>158464931
>Are you telling me you need more than ten years to tell what direction things have been going in?

The mere passage of time does no more to grant clairvoyance than the drinking of paint thinner.

>>158446285
Were you not paying attention, this is explained in the show. Jesus fucking christ.
I feel like people that go "omg 2deep4me" are retards with ADD that didn't put any attention whatsoever.

SEELE wants to to start the third impact because they want to fullfil their contract with Lilith, Gendo wants to start the third impact because he wants to return with Yui. When Gendo doens't start the thrid impact, SEELE sends in the mass produced Evangelions to storm the Geofront.

>>158464944
That's pretty much canon. Some explain Kaworu by saying he's evil, but truth is, he's just too mindless for it to actually count. He's effectively evil.

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>>158464951
>You will never get an Evangelion school-themed spinoff as fun as Attack on Titan: Junior High

Why fucking live?

>>158465013
Except that's literally not what happens, so it would be nice if you could stop being an asshole about stuff you don't even understand.

>>158464980
Good thing we aren't talking about clairvoyance, but good old fashioned intelligent thinking and analysis. Now are you going to honor us with your thinking, or will you admit that you don't accept 3.33 as being the garbage that it is simply because you're biased?

>>158464944
Well, i guess that if thats what you believe i wont be able to change it, but i strongly disagree.

I think he knew he was fated to destroy the world eventually if he didn't die. He wants to die, and shinji happens to be the closest person with a giant robot able to do it. Although with intelligence, he was still too inhuman to understand how much he was hurting shinji with that.

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>That foreshadowing

>>158464563
Wanted to merge with Adam, but they were babies so didn't realize that it was Lilith. Either that, or they knew, so they wanted to merge with Gendo's hand.

>>158465148
He's mixing Rebuild with NGE. It's a sad disease - I've seen it happen to a lot of decent men.

>>158465164
>I think he knew he was fated to destroy the world eventually if he didn't die.

Not him but this is just blatant Kaworu apologism. He isn't "fated" to do anything, as the series proves by having him NOT do it. Just accept that Kaworu is what normal people would call "filth". He betrays his friends, people he loves, and tries to commit genocide even though he has no real reason to do so according to himself even.

>>158465216
>Either that, or they knew, so they wanted to merge with Gendo's hand.

Someone needs to draw an amusing Dojinshi of various anthropomorphized Angles trying to hump Gendo's hand as he's trying to make his way to work (toast in mouth optional).

someone post the tang chart.

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I think of it like this; Angels don't automatically explode when they die.

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>>158465414
Cores don't destabilize or anything when damaged.

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>>158465434
It's deliberate.

>>158465414
>>158465434

That's because they're not dead, just resting. Dun dun duuuunnnn!

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>>158465451
Angels are spiteful. And they don't run away. They'll bunker under an AT Field to regen but none of them ever backs off. When they realize they can't win, survival doesn't factor, they do what they still can to cause the most damage.

>>158465288
>He isn't "fated" to do anything, as the series proves by having him NOT do it.
Eva was never about fighting destiny or stuff like that. On the contrary, instrumentality did happen as predicted. It is hard to say there is no fate, specially because we seen him on screen for like 15 minutes.
But from what we were shown, i would call him a coward and dumb for not trying to fight instinct/fate, not filth.

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>>158465470
They're assholes.

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http://www.bilibili.com/video/av10373095/

>>158465488
Like I said, betrays his friends, those he loves, hurts them, attempts to commit mass genocide without justification or necessity.

This is what normal, well adjusted people call "filth".

>>158465414
Whats your point? They never did. The first angel blown himself up because it was over. The one with toilet paper hands tried too but was too late.

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>>158465583
>This is what normal, well adjusted people call "filth".

all the movies are great

>>158465729
Except 3.33.

>>158465770
And 2.22

>>158465770
>Anything that mentally challenges me is bad

>>158465788
2.22 is great, most loved movie.

>>158465796
3.33 is mentally challenged, you mean.

>>158465620
Kaworu is filth, it's settled.

>>158465288
> mixing Rebuild with NGE
I wasn't. This is what happens in EoE

>>158466131
Your disease is a little bit like alzheimers. You mix up names, places and events, the steady deterioration of your mind has already begun. It's so sad to watch it happen.

The "contract/covenant" with Lilith that SEELE has is Rebuild only.

>>158465013
>>158465152
>no reply

3.33 reconfirmed for being shit.

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>>158466131
You were.

Can we just agree that the original show was fun and the rest sucked more dick than rei and asuka combined?

>>158466412
No, because Rei doesn't suck.

>>158466436
According to my thailandese doujins, she does. Oh boy, she does.

>>158466412
Except EoE is the best part of the franchise

>>158466863
Fuck your oriental doodles.

>>158446285
She rejected his will to instigate third impact for himself, choosing instead to give Shinji the choice.

Reifags should be gassed