Are the days of though-provoking psychological anime over? I

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>>157926141
creative entropy-- like video games.

Taking avant garde risks has fallen below the threshold of success.

The industry has reached a natural state of fragility where innovation is just too costly.

Kado is airing this season.

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>>157926141
>Bebops
>Gunbuster
>though-provoking psychological anime

Ergo proxy was fucking terrible.

>>157926236
I understand that, but there have been very successful attempts in the past, why not give it a shot?

>>157926260
Planning on watching it

>>157926273
You're right, but they are at least taking themselves somewhat seriously and have great tones/atmosphere.

>>157926346
I disagree, but it's all preference. I can see why people don't like it.

>>157926260
watching the dub; its pretty solid so far

I mean, the two girl characters are sort of big eyed and cutesy in a way, but not obnoxiously so

>>157926141
Ergo Proxy was faux intellectual name-dropping retardation with abysmal writing.
Exactly like this shit right here: >>157926305

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>>157926141
It was the age when japs saw western sci fi/fantasy shows and tried to ape them while adding their own taste to it.
Then they realised the public eats low effort shit so most of it pervades the market today.
But you do have shows like Uchoten kazoku etc so I can't really complain. Plus I have a backlog of old shows to watch.

>>157926377
>I can see why people don't like it.

For me it felt like the studio was too busy sucking its own dick rather than, you know, create something for the audience

>>157926141
if you want pretentious 2deep4u garbage, go watch psycho pass

>>157926346
agreed, but I appreciate the mood/atmosphere

Just give me one good thriller

>>157926610
>I appreciate the mood/atmosphere
And I appreciate that we live on a planet with oxygen. What's your point?

>>157926647
point is I enjoyed the art direction and mood despite finding the writing pretentious

>>157926141
It makes no money and nowadays studios that make no money don't survive. Don't forget that the studio that made EP went bankrupt not long ago because their shows didn't sell.

>>157926346
It had it's moments when it wasn't just doing philosophical name dropping. Like the first few episodes were great, there were a few good ones in the middle, the last one was decent too.

Good anime doesn't sell merch which is what sustains the industry.

>>157927337
merchandising and quality are not mutually exclusive concepts.

>>157926553

I didn't like the main character and the stupid CG guns.

>>157926481
Yeah, it had its moments like that, but I like that it took itself seriously and had an interesting world/atmosphere.

>>157926647
Not that anon but,It wasn't the perfect show or anything. There's aspects of Ergo I didn't like but I don't think that's any reason to just throw out the whole series. You seem like you really hate it and that's ok.

>>157926634
Yes! Just something with adult themes. I remember someones asked Kon about Perfect Blue "Why didn't you just make this a live-action film". And he responded with something along the lines with "I could have, but anime let me put a different twist on it not possible in film". I like the idea of having a real adult or complex story, but adding even more mystery or creativeness with animation.

>>157927442
A work of fiction designed with an explicit intent to sell merchandise always risks muddling the storytelling for commercial purposes.

The amount of people who can appreciate that kind of stuff is small nowadays. Moeshit sells. Thoughts don't.

>>157926141
OP. Ergo Proxy was awful. You have really bad taste.
>Ergo Proxys, Evas, Bebops, Lains, Gunbusters?
There anime are fucking decades apart. Yet for some reason you want them seasonally now.

When Avalokiteśvara Bodhisattva was practicing the profound Prajñāpāramitā, he illuminated the Five Skandhas and saw that they were all empty, and crossed over all suffering and affliction.

“Śāriputra, form is not different from emptiness, and emptiness is not different from form. Form itself is emptiness, and emptiness itself is form. Sensation, conception, synthesis, and discrimination are also such as this. Śāriputra, all dharmas are empty: they are neither created nor destroyed, neither defiled nor pure, and they neither increase nor diminish. This is because in emptiness there is no form, sensation, conception, synthesis, or discrimination. There are no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, or thoughts. There are no forms, sounds, scents, tastes, sensations, or dharmas. There is no field of vision and there is no realm of thoughts. There is no ignorance nor elimination of ignorance, even up to and including no old age and death, nor elimination of old age and death. There is no suffering, its accumulation, its elimination, or a path. There is no understanding and no attaining.

“Because there is no attainment, bodhisattvas rely on Prajñāpāramitā, and their minds have no obstructions. Since there are no obstructions, they have no fears. Because they are detached from backwards dream-thinking, their final result is Nirvāṇa. Because all buddhas of the past, present, and future rely on Prajñāpāramitā, they attain Anuttarā Samyaksaṃbodhi. Therefore, know that Prajñāpāramitā is a great spiritual mantra, a great brilliant mantra, an unsurpassed mantra, and an unequalled mantra. The Prajñāpāramitā Mantra is spoken because it can truly remove all afflictions. The mantra is spoken thusly:

gate gate pāragate pārasaṃgate bodhi svāhā

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OP, shut up and watch Flip Flappers. Then come back.

>>157926480
In Shinawa's case her relative childishness is very much intentional and relevant to the story; the jury is still out on Tsukai.

>>157926141
>edgy harem
What's that like?

>>157927741

Never said it was perfect. It's ok for people to like different things.

What does their release times have to do with anything? I'm taking about the themes.

>>157927944
Go back to plebbit. You're not fooling anyone. You said "Are the days of though-provoking psychological anime over" as though to say that there was an age in which these anime were frequently made. That's not true. They were always years in between. Japan doesn't make anime for western audiences. Deal with ti

>>157926141
There is plenty of stuff that takes itself more seriously every single season. You are just looking for a very specific type of Sci-Fi that is less commonly made nowadays and was only ever made in any great concentration directly following the success of Evangelion.

Just going off the top of my head there were shows recently like Rakugo, ACCA 13, Fume wo Amu, Flip Flappers, Uchoten Kazoku, Mushishi. Just this last couple of weeks a film of the Blame! manga was released.

daiz, the arch enemy of anime won, welcome your moeshit pandering overlords. This is all your fault for streaming your animes.

>>157927988

Hey, relax! it's going to be ok Anon!!

>>157927989
You're right. I'm probably just yearning for that genre. And thanks for the suggestions.

>>157928073
The point he is making is that you've watched a bunch of anime that had these themes which were all released over a period of 20-30 years and even then the number of them isn't that great in the context of those 20-30 years. Then you are saying why isn't stuff like this made nowadays? His point is that it wasn't really very commonly made even in the past. It's just that we can all see that material right now whenever we want rather than getting the one show a year that is along similar lines.

Just recently there was the GiTS OVAs, there is the new LOGH adaptation coming out and another new GiTS anime. To say this kind of stuff isn't made is just wrong. There is just way more stuff made that isn't like this and that has always been the case. Even if you go back into the past you will find that "deep psychological sci-fi" type anime are a rareity.

So to act as if anime has changed nowadays because they aren't common is just evidence of a biased perception you have created rather than reality. You are interested in these kinds of shows thus you have watched a lot of them from the past created over many years and gained a false impression that they make up a lot of the shows from the past due to having not seen all the many more shows that aren't of the same genre.

If out of the 50 shows you watched from before 2005 30 were deep Sci-Fi you might easily get the impression that those shows used to be more common when in fact that isn't the case its just you naturally pick more of those to watch because you are interested in that. You don't have to look through season charts from the past to see what fits the bill.

>>157926260
>Kado
>thought provoking

Jesus Christ if that shit stimulates your mind you have some issues anon.

>>157928299
>just recently there was a reboot, and a reboot, and another reboot! Look at all these brand new anime! It's only a meme that anime today puts creativity and depth in the backburner, really!!!!

kek

>>157928299

I agree with most of that, but that also assumes a lot. I would argue that we are seeing less and less of thought-provoking risk taking non-sequel shows.Its like the movie industry and it's inevitable, I get it. Moeshit seems extremely abundant nowadays. To the point where we are going multiple seasons without anything close to though provoking. I love moeshit. It's great sometimes. But it just seems like the industry is very very far into selling garbage because it sells. I get it it's a business. But there's an overall drought of quality IMO.

>>157926141
I know op

>watch pic related
>salient parallels with postmodernism and hyper realities
>complex character study regarding the main character's ontological crisis
>integrates poignant motifs on the fragility of the real experience
>properly integrates its philosophers, who are important in understanding the phenomenological perspective of the work
>brilliantly exhibits the creative talents of its staff, as well as their abilities in the intertextual meshing of art, literature, and philosophy into an overarching simulacrum
>slightly overdoes its cryptic nature, but makes up for it with a few down to earth themes that aren't superficial
>poor characters but their faults are a product of the show's inherent search for existence
>clearly one of the better anime out there, one that should be discussed
>go on the forums to see what its proponents think
>all they talk about is Pino
>clearly all they understand is the facile and basic elements of the show
>muh cute robot with the capacity for moral judgment
>muh representation of childish innocence, wonder, and discovery that recalls our finding of the soul at the dawn of man
>muh plebness

>>157928492
That wasn't what we are talking about. We were talking about if "deep" anime still get made. I pointed out plenty of new releases >>157927989 in my previous post that are not "reboots".

>>157928583
I don't think so to be honest. If anything there is just more anime being made which means the good shows that are out there are surrounded by more shit. It's a ratio thing rather than an increase/decrease. Shows very rarely get sequels/reboots unless they are big successful franchises and even less gets a season 3. Once again its just more that big franchises get more prominence creating the impression sequels and reboots are more common that they are. There are plenty of smaller shows that are ambitious and artistically creative but just get one season and that is it. They just get forgotten about.

If you are looking for business explanations that kind of description you've used would be more apt to explain why original anime are uncommon rather than adaptations of manga/LNs/VNs.

>>157928868

Fuck, you keep making me realize things. Thanks for the nice perspective.

>>157927808
This actually makes a lot of sense, I was avoiding Buddhism because of all the pagan mumbo jumbo mixed in to a lot of the more current forms but this is pretty good. Which canon is this from?

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>>157926141
I tried finding sales data for this but couldn't except for Ergo Proxy. I assume we don't see many thought-provoking psychological anime for two main reasons (these are just assumptions).

1. Thought-provoking psychological anime doesn't sell well. The only one I could find numbers for was Ergo Proxy and it sold 1,202 DVD's (according to someanithing.com). In that same season stuff like: Code Geass, Haruhi, Fate/Stay Night just out shined Ergo. Ergo Proxy was for a niche audience and it really shows

2. The average modern anime fan doesn't want it. I've noticed that the most popular and most discussed anime of recent seasons has almost always been some sort of moe-related cute girls doing cute things. The companies that produce anime see this all ready built and stable audience so they can just exploit it and turn a profit easily.

source: http://www.someanithing.com/121

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>>157926141
Nah.

>>157926260
Yeah, but don't rec a show before it's finished airing.

>>157927844
Flip Flappers wasn't the type of show to make you think. It was great but i'm not going to pretend there was depth.

>>157928322
You are the one with issues. If you do not stimulate your mind with weekly predictions for an original show then you're not living your life correctly. Maybe antidepressants would help you.

>>157929905
If you don't think there was anything to think about you weren't paying attention. None of the stuff to think about was essential for understanding the show on a superficial level but there was a lot of subtext and symbolism rooted in very thoughtful and unique concepts.

>>157929730
>Ergo proxy sold more than texhnolyze
Holy fuck I knew it was made to flop, but god damn.

>>157926141
any anime (or manga) that features good decision making (sports/games/battle shonen, for example) is thought-provoking.

>>157926141
bebop psychological! kek
im currently watching lain, in ep 9 and it isnt that great.

evangelion is good, but overrated, and end is shit at least in the main seriess.

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>>157930803
one example

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>>157931006

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the older I get, the more anime and manga I find just really don't hold up. The Ideas, at their best, are sort of...simple. Or you get the ones that try way too hard, and forget their original purpose as shows with a plot. The only three that really hold up after 8 years are berserk, Shigurui, and Texhnolyze. Even as I say that, there are some valid complaints about modern berserk and Texhnolyze, but they still hold up far greater than most other anime an manga I've seen

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>>157931102

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>>157931142
Shigurui is probably the best complete story I've ever come across in anime and manga. Artwork is fantastic, and even the anime was pretty good. Shame madhouse didn't finish it, but I understand they were probably losing a ton of money on it

>>157926504
>tried to ape them
>posts a show that westerners ripped of

>>157931218
Shigurui has an amazing OST.

Anime makes money from merchandising, not the TV and BD sales. Money's made from fans ready to pay for figures, dakis, cosplay accessories etc ( and, if it's an LN adaptation, the LN itself ), and some harem with 8 different girls sells merch better than a thought-provoking psychological anime.


Imo two things could happen, either the foreign sales gain enough importance for japs and foreigners to collaborate on some projects, like it was back in the 90s, and it's already starting with the Netflix-funded anime.

Or, movies regain in popularity, and people try to innovate more.


>>157931218
You should read "Lone wolf and Cub", Shigurui was probably inspired by it. The artwork is a bit old but the rest is just perfect.

>>157926141
>edgy harem
Is that even possible?

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>>157926141
>Are the days of though-provoking psychological anime over?
No. Just gotta know where to find it.

>>157933374
>>157927916
Maybe he's talking about the MC's hair.

Shiki and From the New World were some recent anime in that style. The first season of Psycho-Pass at least made an attempt. If you're counting Bebop, Space Dandy may as well go in too; it reached some surprising highs. Some would argue for Zankyou no Terror as well, but I wasn't as keen on it. Depending on your tolerance for deranged symbolism, there's also Penguindrum and potentially Yuri Kuma, though they're both a far cry from the straight-facedness of the shows you listed. Aku no Hana is a must if you loved the first episode of Texhnolyze. Mushishi's there too, from the same director. Heard good things about Death Parade, but never saw it. Subete ga F ni Naru tried, though I don't think it got there.

That's something like two attempts per year. Somewhere down the line, I'm sure we'll be able to appreciate this decade's creative output a little more, but it's certainly bleak to follow in real-time.

>>157934008
>>That's something like two attempts per year. Somewhere down the line, I'm sure we'll be able to appreciate this decade's creative output a little more, but it's certainly bleak to follow in real-time.
Ain't that the truth.
The gold is what stands the test of time, not what stands out in the moment. The shows that people remember a decade from now will be of similar quality to the shows people remember from a decade ago today.

>>157926141
Why don't you use your brain on something more meaningful than an anime? Or are you just wasting your time on purpose, then telling yourself that thinking deeply about an anime (or more truthfully a piece of entertainment) isn't a waste of time.

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>>157934008
>Aku no Hana is a must if you loved the first episode of Texhnolyze.

>>157934619
If you like watching unpleasant and unhappy people suffering while walking slowly through a rusting city, with a bleak ending, long stretches of silence and a fair amount of inventive "camera"-work, then you should find a lot to love in both. They're really quite similar.

>>157926260
I dropped this because of the horrendous CG at the end of the first episode. Is it worth it?

>>157934703
Huh, alright I'll check it out then. I avoided it because I only had heard bad things on /a/. Thanks anon.

>>157934788
It did what it set out to do, and did it well; it just set out to do something fairly unpopular.

Also, S2 never, so if/when you finish, just switch to the manga starting at Ch. 21. The anime's a 1:1 adaptation, so you aren't missing much.

>>157934755
Yes, you faggot. It's one of the most original shows in years.

>>157934614
I don't watch anime to think deeply about anything. But I still appreciate the author trying to add a message to his work, most good stories have one and anime shouldnt be an exception.

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Why don't they make western or noire movies like they used to? Genres come and go, somethings last longer than others but ultimately all cinema and tv products are just a reflection of its time. Its just the way things are.

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>>157927808

Motherfucking anon.

Why the fuck does this passage in this particular thread make me laugh so hard.

>>157926141
>Ergo Proxy

I finally watched it last year and holy shit was it overrated as fuck, half of it feels like fucking filler and the ending was dumb as hell, I know the MC looked hot and all but cmon man, there's a reason this stuff isn't done very often, because it's hard to actually get it right and make it good

>>157935747
From what I recall in one interview it was said that like half of it was made up on the fly which is why the first few episodes were strong and then it sort of meandered from there.

>>157935607
>all cinema and tv products are just a reflection of its time
So we are living in very shitty times?

>>157934614
Meaning is a spook. Time can't be wasted because wasted implies it has value to begin with.

>>157935896
I liked the meandering middle stretch. It felt adventurous, and some of the standalone episode premises were quite clever. The episode where they're stuck in the doldrums was one of my favorites, for instance, and it would never have made it into a more focused show.

>>157935747
>overrated
Most people agree that it was complete shit

>>157935931
Then your entiere life has no value? That must be sad.

>>157935984
To each his own I guess.

>>157936033
Yeah, but then again lamenting that fact won't change things. Best thing to do is try not to suffer too much while you wait for death.

>>157936200
Why not just kill yourself, then?

>>157936349
Because both states are equally meaningless, though I suppose the real reason I don't is because I haven't yet encountered the correct stimulus to cause me to do so. Hopefully I will work up the courage sooner rather than later. Though I don't know if I ever will because honestly I fear that once I die there will still be greater suffering afterwards. No matter how it is now, it could always be worse.

>>157936696
Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo. If you believe there's no greater meaning to anything, I wouldn't be unduly concerned with an afterlife of suffering.

But even then, why hasten to the grave? If you think that life and death are equal, there's no virtue in suicide, and nothing to be gained. Just live your life until it leaves you of its own accord.

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>>157936696
>Because both states are equally meaningless
You said to try not to suffer while waiting for death. If you die now, you won't have to suffer anymore, so they are not equally meaningless.
>No matter how it is now, it could always be worse.
If there is that possibility, then again, they are not equally meaningless. And if there is a possibility that you will dislike being dead, wouldn't it be better to stop being such an emo and try to have some fun with your life?
I recommend watching cute girls. They always cheer everyone up.

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>>157937133
There may not be any meaning in it, but I am built to not wish to suffer.

>If you think that life and death are equal
Well it's more that divisions between things really only exist in the micro and not the macro.
>there's no virtue in suicide, and nothing to be gained.
There's nothing to be gained from an objective perspective, but from a limited subjective viewpoint there may be something to be gained, or something to be lost. Yet in the grand scheme there probably isn't any difference.

>>157937134
> wouldn't it be better to stop being such an emo and try to have some fun with your life?
I wish it it were that easy anon. I really do, but things are as they are and must ever be.

>I recommend watching cute girls. They always cheer everyone up.
Cute girls doing cute things is nice, but it isn't everything. Maybe once they perfect VR and make immersive worlds of cute girls doing cute things that might be enough.

Now can we please get back into talking about OP's "thought provoking anime" instead of my half baked Buddhist/world as will/eternal recurrence blogging bullshit? I really didn't think a one off reply about spooks would turn into this line of questioning.

>>157937720
We're just concerned for your well-being, anon. Existential doubt is a painful thing to bear.

But yes, back to the topic at hand.

>>157937963
S-sorry to worry you anon.

Anyways yes back on topic. I'd say that the "thought provoking" anime that came out of the 90s and the 00s were pretty unique because of the relatively odd time they found themselves in. There was a glut of funding, there were a ton of competing studios, there were new cheaper digital techniques coming into fashion, and some recent major successes in that type of anime that everyone wanted to copy(Eva for one). That hype and proliferation of studios trying new stuff has kind of died down in this decade. Instead studios have more focused on tried and true things like adaptations of existing works and market tested stuff that they know will sell. The market's just more or less reaching equilibrium, at least that's what I think.

>>157938456
When you look at the anime that meet your description, they also seem to have come from a relatively small group of creators. Between, ABe, Konaka, Satou, Nakamura, and Watanabe, you've got most of the series that would fit the description, and there are some others who pop up in the credits of multiple "thoughtful" anime of that era. That bunch are not a terribly prolific lot (RIP Nakamura), and some seem to have moved away from anime. I wonder if there are simply not enough creators who are interested in these kinds of projects.

>>157938803
Possible, but my guess would be it's more likely that it's hard for even interested and motivated creators to ever make it big enough that they get creative control of their own project. The animation industry is not known for being easy to break into and funding is getting tighter these days I hear.

>>157926141
Moe doesn't mean what you think it means. There are also just as many thought-provoking shows nowadays as there used to be. If you can't understand a simple slang term and find shows yourself, are you even up to understanding these shows you claim to want?

>>157939371
Moe, without an accompanying definition, barely means anything anymore—people use it to mean a lot of different things. What do you mean by it?

>>157935931
No, just times you don't personally like.

>>157939420
I use it how it was meant to be used, to describe a "burning" a character can give someone, a kind of passionate endearment, which is why the term is "moe", like the word "moeru", which means "to burn". I t doesn't mean "cute" or "slice of life". Kaiji, Okabe, and Inspector Zenigata are all moe to me, for example, because aspects of them give me a burning passion to see them succeed or at least be happy.

>>157939643
That's to sprout you dummy.

>>157939672
It means both.

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>>157926141
>>157926346

I love ergo proxy.
You can hate it for its "pseudo-intellectual" dialogue and philosophy, but I think people ignore its strengths:
1. An interesting world.
2. The characters.
3. The visuals.
4. The soundtrack.
5. The great stand alone episodes and side stories.

One of my favorite episodes was the one where they're in an abandoned dome and the proxy there manipulates their minds. Sure the dialogue between Vincent and the proxy wasn't super strong, but everything else about the episode was wonderful.

Also Re-L is my literal waifu, and I'm basically a normie nowdays, but Re-L will always be in my heart.

>>157939896
People don't ignore it's strengths, they just remember how it threw all those strengths out the window after the first few episodes. It's really the poster child for why you don't start up a show without planning the whole thing out. What a waste.

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>>157926141
>6 big haired girls

>moeshit

>uchoten kazoku only mentioned twice

fuck this thread

>Casshern Sins
>Kaiji season 2
>Mawaru Penguindrum
>Mob Psycho 100
>Ping Pong the Animation
>Shiki
>The Woman Called Fujiko Mine
>Uchoten Kazoku
>Yurikuma Arashi
These are just a few recent shows that I've found to be thought-provoking in certain ways.