Heaven's Feel

>>156622916
Fuck off

Nope. It's the best route. Plebs like you wouldn understand.

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>>156622916

I don't know what can be worse than saber's route.

>>156622916
Why would you try to be a super hero if you can't save a girl.

Also, heroes make sacrifices

>>156622916
>hurr durr i don't understand what am I reading derp

HF is a deconstruction of FSN.

>realta nua

>>156622916
Yes, it is literally the worst route plotwise, with some of the best moments in it (so still worth reading). Nihilist faggots like to pretend like it's something great because it makes them feel grown up.

>>156623309
what is the problem? i played that with the patch for uncensors

Sakura is a shit. Rin and Saber are better. Also Shirou doesn't turn into a pansy who gives up everything just for the sake of his waifu in the other routes.

Playing F/SN is the worst route.

>>156622916
Worst girl, best route.
This is something literally everybody knows and you are probably retarded.

I think the main problem with Heaven's Feel is that it's the final route in the game. The immediate preceding route goes on about how beautiful Shirou's ideal is and even if it doesn't work, it's not wrong to pursue it, etc., etc. It pounds into your head that Shirou loves and admires this ideal.

So when Heaven's Feel goes and says that you should abandon it, it makes the Rin route seem really pointless.

>>156622916
I'm a big fan of Mr Freeze from the animated 90s Batman series, and Shiro from HF reminded me quite a bit of him.
Being partners in crime with Kotomine was also a blast.
Kiritsugu would kill Shiro in a second if he was around.

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>Why would you try to be a super hero if you can't save a girl

Because protecting the thousands of other lives she endangers is more important.

>>156622916
You idiot. The entire point of the 3 routes thing is to see Shirou's ideals challenged.

On Seibha's he holds onto his ideals completely, on Rin's he realizes his ideals are not realistic, but will still follow up on them trying his best, on wormslut route he decides to toss away his ideals since he has reached a point where sticking with them will make him kill the woman he loves.

The fact that it just happened to be the worst woman in the entire franchise is just bad luck.

>>156623640
Stay Night: Fate and UBW
Other Night: Heaven's Feel

Ignore the butthurt fanboys. Your reaction is completely reasonable because you're made to play the routes in an order and HF is a sharp contrast to UBW.

>>156623698
Which of Shiro's paths would Kiritsugu approve of?

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>>156623191
>Why would you try to be a super hero if you can't save a girl.
The same way Kiritsugu did.

>>156623509
>>156623627
>>156623698
HF is the only route the real Kiritsugu is brought up as important (like all his circumstances, his nature, his family, his actions); the other routes mention Shirou's false vision of him. Hell, one of the bad endings involve Shirou becoming Kiritsugu II by making the wrong choice just to make this more obvious (all over HF is like "are you going to be like Kiritsugu or not?" via Illya and Kotomine). Not to mention that, by a narrative standpoint, the other two routes don't resolve Shirou Emiya's issues. FSN progresses with every single route: the presentation of the character (Fate), deeper study of what makes the protagonist thick (UBW), and finally resolve the said issues in the climax (HF).

It's even in the Tiger Dojo. Question routes (Fate, UBW), answer route (HF). HF is the one that resolves Emiya Kiritsugu's dilemna by successfully giving his heir the life Kiritsugu actually dreamed of, deep inside. It's a generational story. That's how the three families issues are also resolved in HF as well.

Now Saber's side is resolved in Fate.

Fate: idealism
UBW: pragmatism
HF: nihilism

>>156623076
>>156623114
Nasu on HF True:

When I finished writing the Saber and Rin route all in one go, part of me thought the game wouldn't be settled unless I flipped it over. As the theme of Fate/stay night, if we assume the Saber route to be posing a question, the Rin route is the answer and the Sakura route is a practical application. In the beginning there were plans for an Illya route, but if we were to add it, the game would have wound up being incredibly huge. So we had this plan to release the Saber route and Rin route as "Fate/stay night", and the Illya route and Sakura route as "Fate/other night". But when we thought of the 8800 yen price, we decided we should include the Sakura route after all, so in the end, we decided to combine the Illya route and Sakura route into one route. So, although it had been finished during 2002, we took more time to reorganize the plot in January or February of the following year.

It (Normal End) was the only conclusion considered at the time. However, after writing about 2/3 of it, I found that the story itself did not allow such a conclusion. After that, I wrote the original conclusion, and then followed the story and write the happy end. Since this was Shirou's tale of happiness after losing so much, even if Saber and Illya were lost, at least he should let Sakura achieve happiness. And this was the conclusion. Even though Sakura indirectly became a mass murderer, there was no reason to deny her of happiness. I came up with this idea that if one were alive, it was not bad to redeem him/herself while looking forward to happiness. Even though this was hypocrisy, I felt that the story itself strongly demanded this possibility. To be honest, it was the first time that I lost to the story I wrote.

Nasu: Yes, its plot was created with porn in mind.

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HF is edgy trash

Throwing away your ideals for "muh wormslut" or "muh mind of steel" is as bad as those ideals never getting challenged at all in Fate

UBW has Shiro confront the flaws of his most deeply held beliefs, acknowledge them, but then come to the conclusion "You know what, I LIKE doing this. Even if its merely a coping mechanism for the emptiness inside me it can still mean something real because I want it to mean something. So while I'm going to be more self reflective about this but I refuse to abandon it. Because this is not just who I am, its who I knowingly chose to be"

Also Rin is best heroine

>>156623798
None, he specifically didn't want him to follow up on them.

That is the entire point of that scene in the moonlight where he tells him that in order to save someone, you need to sacrifice another.

nasu means eggplant

>>156623640
Use your brain lad. He would be abandoning his ideal weather he chose to save Sakura or continue pursuing being a hero, because both ways he is choosing not to save someone. His version of being a hero was trying to save everyone, not abandoning the few for the many.

Yeah, UBW did a good job of showing how beautiful his ideal is, but until HF, the only thing that actually tested it was Archer. He could beat Archer fine but what came between his ideal and him in HF was reality, which isn't so easy to beat.

>>156623798
HF is pretty much like succeeding at saving Shirley, so that one.

>>156623986
Shirou already accepted that you can't save everyone. He hates it, but he accepted it. The point of UBW is that even if he knows he can't save everyone, it's not wrong to try.

>>156623986
>He would be abandoning his ideal weather he chose to save Sakura or continue pursuing being a hero
Nope, he was already aware of the limits, though he would always seek a way to save everyone.

>>156622916
Congratulations, you have taste.

>>156623798
All of them because he's happier than Kerry.

>>156623914
Rin is at her best in HF though

>>156624117
This anon said it well>>156623859
>Saber route to be posing a question, the Rin route is the answer and the Sakura route is a practical application
UBW finds the answer, that it's worth trying anyway, and HF puts it to the test. And as everyone, including Shirou, knows that succeeding at such an ideal is truly impossible, which is why the answer was to try, not actually accomplish saving everyone, he fails at it as expected

>>156624181
>though he would always seek a way to save everyone
Missing the point. No mater what he did people would have to die.

Either you side with Sakura with the knowledge that more people will die because of her, or you have to kill her to prevent more people dying as a result. There is literally no way to "Save everyone" from that dilema.

>>156623845
Bitch never saved a single person until Shirou

>>156622916
The problem of this path is that it was going to be 2 routes, 1 for Ilya and another for Sakura in a diferent game from FS/N, but instead they shoved both routes into the same, so after a while it becomes a huge mess and it seems like Shirou is being simply dragged by the events rather than taking real decisions like in the previous routes.

Not to mention how early on Sakura seems like the main girl then gets knocked out by Ilya and then right at the end the game goes like "Oh that's right it was Sakura the girl not Ilya"

He literally saved the world by rejecting the grail.

>>156623859
>Bad Ending
Its not a bad ending if Shirou becomes Kiritsugu II.

Besides Kiritsugu II isn't a bad thing. A man is only a man when he sticks to his ideals.

>>156625240
>being a failure shell of man who brings misfortune too anyone he cares about is a good thing
Curious, did you start with FZ?

>>156625366
>Not being happy with the life you live and not holding regrets over your choices.
Did you choose a slut over your own happiness and manhood?

People who want an utopia without conflict. deserve the most painful of deaths, all the suffering builds character, trying to take it away is essentially the same as destroying humanity.

Kiritsugu and Shirou are niggers.

>>156625439
What are you talking about? Kerry's whole like is unhappiness, except for that one scene, and regrets. And since you ignored the question, I'll assume you did start with Zero.

Not him but why does Zero get so much hate? It's just as good as Fate Stay Night if not superior in my opinion.

>>156625439
Ilya_Crying_Face.jpg

>>156625526
Okay, Solomon. Calm down, we get it. You don't like Goetia the true savior of humanity.

>>156625677
It doesn't. Nobody is hating Zero in this thread, just Kiritsugu's ideals.

>>156625677
It's the Zerobabies that get hate, not Zero, usually for being stupid people.

>>156622916

His super hero ideals are complete nonsense and should be discarded. Sacrificing 1 to save 1,000,000 is something that sounds noble, until you realize just how willing all the 1,000,000 are to sacrifice the 1, couching their selfish desire to live in terms of justice, morality, etc.

Sakura is not the best girl or even a particularly good one-- but why should she be? While Rin was spoiled and lived in a mansion, while Saber was protected and became a king, Sakura was cast into a horrible situation from birth and protected/shielded by no one. Sakura's one bright spot, her relationship with Shirou, is also taken from her in the other routes. She might not be best girl, but there are reasons for it, and she did nothing to deserve the hand she was dealt.

Is heroism about saving a million faceless others, or is it about doing whatever it takes to save someone you love? Isn't it also heroic to save Sakura? I think it is, and in fact, it's more heroic because it means going against the will of the many to save the one. The challenge is greater.

You just have to get tested for worms after.

>>156625761
HF is the troo sequel to zero - Neogaf

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Reminder that HF Shirou is the true Shirou. If he needed to fight the entire world to save Sakura, he would have.

>>156624639
Wrong, he never saw any of the people he saved until Shirou is what you mean. Sure, most of the people he saved were people at risk, rather than people actually needing someone to save them, but to say he didn't save people when we can see otherwise is downright absurd.

For example, how many people at the airport and the city it's located at did he save by shooting down that airplane full of zombie dead apostole kusks instead of letting it land? could've been one or one thousand. We'll never know, but they were saved.

>>156622916
You're probably just burned out because the first half of the route is only cooking and fucking the educated prostitute. It really makes the decision look like you're thinking with your dick, but it gets better. Also, your choice wasn't just for Sakura. It was for Ilya too, and that's a point many people miss.

>>156625791
>Isn't it also heroic to save Sakura.
Not really. There are countless people born into situations worse than Sakura. You don't see those people trying to exterminate humanity though.

Sakura always had suicide as a way out. When she went to school she always had the chance to run away.

She had two different ways out, but refused to do anything and accept her hell. And you want to let millions who did nothing die for her?

>>156622916
It is the most retarded route. UBW is the one and only best route, though Fate is alright.

>>156622916
>WAAAAAH WHY ISNT SHIROU A STATIC CHARACTER IN EVERY ROUTE

>>156622916
HF is the only route worth reading, the rest of the VN is trash.

>>156623698

Great character or greatest?

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>>156626026
>she always had the chance to run away.
Zouken's main worm is literally inside her heart. Funny how people who try to blame Sakura for her situation always turn out to not know shit about the story.

>>156623914
i love how hf has all these little dominos falling into place, small changes that add up to major differences. Shirou choosing to spend more time with Sakura leads to him meeting Zouken. Zouken name dropping the Einzberns leads to Shirou recognizing the name when Illya introduces herself. This makes Shirou hesitate in treating Illya as just an enemy to defeat and he ends up turning down Rin’s offer here. Which in turn leads to Shirou finding out more about Kiritsugu’s connections to Illya and the Einzberns, which causes his relationship with Illya to become completely different from the first two routes.

But back to this. You get so used to having Rin as an ally/mentor in the first two routes that something like this really starts to make hf feel different. Especially compared to Rin’s enemy declerations in ubw which never once felt convincing, this moment where she says it to his face after all that negotiation makes it feel more final. It doesn’t last of course, but this moment has always made me think about a route where Shirou and Rin really do stay enemies and never team up. What would that be like? I think it’d be pretty interesting, and Archer would be thrilled

>>156625964

So we was pretty much a Defender only in his time and not throughout history.

Kerry was a true hero.

>>156623698
>>156626176
Fate route also mentions a good deal of the real Kiritsugu, it's from there that Saber states that Kiritsugu only talked to her 3 times during the 4th war (Shirou assumed it was the 3 command seals) and that he was ruthless and treated everyone as a tool including himself.

HF reveals on Kiritsugu actually feels more unnatural because the game just decided to throw that out early on in the route because you had gotten that knowledge from Fate already, the only natural reveal was why Kiritsugu blew the grail although by Fate reveals about the grail being tainted it had already become obvious why he did it.

>>156626026
It's not really a matter of opinion that saving someone in need is heroic. I don't even like Sakura and have spent days of my life arguing with wormfags who say she did nothing wrong, but you are just being retarded.

>>156626197
Suicide is fine too.

>Isn't it also heroic to save Sakura?

This seems like more of a selfish decision than a heroic one to me.

>>156626176
Ok character as the role he plays in FSN. Terrible person overall though.

>>156626285
Why should an innocent victim have to die? That's about as unheroic as it gets.

>>156624065
That route was to give an answer to the kind of life Shirou Emiya SHOULD live. He had to break free from his father's poisonous shadow and accomplish what he couldn't (destroy All Evils in the World) and obtain the life he wanted deep inside (a life with his one true love, who happens to be a Grail Waifu just like Sakura). He had to find the cure of his 'defect' which was still present in the other two routes, he's just less aware he's an empty man as Kotomine because he didn't bond with him to realize his issues. He did it by losing worthless memories and through death-rebirth anew.

It was to complete the ritual: Heaven's Feel.

In any case, 'Sakura's crimes' are more in her imagination. She tended to blame herself over everything, even her own abuse. Saber is the same as Sakura, someone who carries the blame and would snap (they are very suited as master/servant partners after both of them got blackened).

The Shadow was Avenger (or rather the Grail) consuming people as she slept, using the uncanny compatibility of Matou magic (and imaginary numbers) to make it happen. Avenger was innocent too. Sakura put a stop to this once she realized it by not sleeping again.

She only had control over it during the last days, after she snapped, by going Dark Sakura. The people she killed were: Kotomine Kirei, Zouken Matou, True Assassin, and Shinji Matou (accidentally). What 'crimes' do you speak about?

There is no villain in HF. Everyone is somewhat responsible for what happens. You can even argue that Avenger himself is the most innocent victim of all. He still paid for it.

The True Ending fits in everything.

>>156626349
Because her life is worthless and all she brings to people around her is misfortune. Not the first case, really.

>>156626349
You're not very innocent if your life will cause millions of innocents to die.

>>156626332
Why does Kirei dream about him when knocked out?

>>156626332

>Terrible person.

Hey man, somebody has to be THAT guy.
The only who gets his hands dirty so others don't have to get involved.

>>156626429
He got Shirou involved.

>>156626428
Homolust.

>>156626428
Because Kirei thought Kerry was his soulmate, until he realized it was really Shirou.

>>156626496

He never wanted him to go after his own dream; that's why he never taught him magic. Then even when he did, only the pussy kind.

>>156626377
She's the only one capable of making Shirou experience true happiness for the sake of himself, unlike Rin who can't do shit to stop him from trying to become a superhero.

>>156626424
>millions
Nice meme. She was intending on killing herself to stop Angra Mainyu's birth near the end of the route, by the way.

>>156626428
Each character in FSN has their backstory moment. That was his. They later gave him Fate/Zero to expand on it

>>156626626
He dies on both endings. The Shirou on the true ending is not much different from a puppet. Yeah, "happiness". Even Ilya died. Becoming a real super hero is the closest to happiness Shirou would get.

>>156626674
>how to spot a retard who doesn't know how Touko puppets work
Shirou would never be able to become a superhero, and Archer was the closest he could get. As UBW shows, he clearly regretted it.

>>156626594
It would be one thing if he continued doing what he did after the grail blew up in his face, this is what Shirou would have done because what was important to him was the process instead of the end result, but he didn't. He just game up because his theory of "ends justify the means" blew up with the grail, when he finally realized the end he wanted was not possible.

>>156622916
His ideals are shit anyways, so seeing him throw them aside for a more realistic perspective was a very satisfactory conclusion.

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https://youtube.com/watch?v=8QRBqE9YO_c
I have no clue what happened

>>156626674
The happiness Shirou wanted was the happiness Kerry experienced when saving him. And Shirou got this happiness by saving Sakura.

>>156626763
>he clearly regretted it
>when he says he doesn't have any regrets

Shirou and Archer aren't the same person. Even Archer was saved by Shirou's answer.

Good job calling me a retard over minor details and proving yourself mentally disabled.

>>156626626
>She was intending to killing herself to stop Angry Mainyu
She might have wanted to, but she was never going to go through with it. Plus Angra was stopping her from going through with it.

Nice meme.

Best character Kotomine has best presence in HF so its the best arc.
Prove me wrong

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>>156626862
>thinking Touko's body double puppets are like being some marionette puppet
>minor details
Nope, that's just you showing you're a casual who doesn't know shit about the Nasuverse.

>Shirou and Archer aren't the same person.
Nice bait.

>assassin killed lancer
fucking dropped

>>156627034
Archer/UBW > *

On the negative side, I wasn't a huge fan of the Caster conflict. It wasn't bad or uninteresting, just kind of meh. The ending is something that doesn't sit well with me now that I've read HF, but it was agreeable with me before that. As a whole, I thought this route did a good job expanding the boundaries set by Fate while staying consistent with the rules. There were some ambiguous plot points but they seem to have been cleared up by Nasu afterwards.

>>156627071
Literally braindead.

>>156626805

Well once he learned the ending he wanted was only possible if he literally killed, more or less, everyone since the grail isn't as powerful as everyone thinks.

After learning that fact, he refused to let it grant his wish and came to conclusion that all his fighting saved many people but he couldn't save everyone.

The truth sucks.

>>156627102
would have been a nice twist if Gilgamesh helped Shirou and the gang against Sakura/Saber/Berserker

>>156626862

Archer was tired of all the pointless killing after a Defender for so long.

Once you realize it'll never end, why would you want to spend eternity doing it?

I'd rather not exist too.

>>156622916
>Mind of Steel
>bad
That's like your opinion man

>>156622916
If you liked the rest, read HF too. If only for contrast and deeper understanding of Shirou, Rin, Illya and Kotomine as characters.

Archer is still the best version of Emiya Shirou, having reached his ideals, lost them and then despite it all re-realized the beauty in them.

>>156625942
Prisma's Shirous are both faggots. One is a fluffy, shallow harem lead and the other is a brainwashed, shallow housewife who gets side-lined so little girls can fight and die in his stead.

>>156622916
>bad ending
Mind of Steel is not a bad end.
It's just the end of the story, there is no need for anything more.

>>156626370
And to become a complete human once again, like he was before the fire, Shirou had to die again. Face it, there's nothing left of "Emiya Shirou" at the ending of HF.

>>156626626
>unlike Rin who can't do shit to stop him from trying to become a superhero.
Rin never tries to stop him, people who think that's what she ever tried to do completely misunderstood the ending of UBW.

>>156626763
>and Archer was the closest he could get. As UBW shows, he clearly regretted it.
Archer was Wrong, too. Capital W wrong, and he realized what a fuck up he'd become and went back to his afterlife with a smile on his face because He Wasn't Wrong.

>>156627575
Do you remember what the Tiger dojo was for MoS? I remember the ending in Tsukihime where Shiki kills Akiha as he had promised her he would, and although it is by technicality a bad ending, Ciel Sensei says to not consider it one. I'm wondering if it was like that for MoS.

Shirou is a broken kid with no way to cope with his lone survivor trauma than to play this "hero" role to make up for it.
In Fate he fully embraces it even if he understands one day it'll break him.
In UBW he molds it into a more realistic and practical way to avoid becoming Archer.
In HF he breaks away from it because the plot didn't lull his complex and actually put him in front of a choice where he can't be the Fate HERO because he can't save everyone, and he can't be the UBW HERO because he objectively feels like Sakura's live is more important to him than the lives of people he won't ever met.

The only reason Shirou gets a free pass in Fate and UBW is because the plot never really puts him in front of hard choice with no plot devices to save him, which is why HF is the last route of the novel.
I like to put it this way, in Fate Shirou is everyone's hero, in UBW he's the majority's hero, in HF he's Sakura hero.

HF is literally the only route that mattered. The other two were just fan service and epic battlers

>>156627737
They call you an idiot in it.

>>156627737
Taiga just says that this is the end.
Illya calls you an idiot.
That's all.

this thing was the one that had real shirou fighting to death with seibah alter and ran out of energy right? that was my favourite ending

>>156627836
>Illya calls you an idiot.
Based

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>>156627737
Mind of Steel is a Bad End. Fate specifically tells you when an ending isn't a Bad End. See; Sparks Liner High.

>>156627782
What are Shinji and Illya in Fate and UBW respectively?

>>156627985
Shinji gets rescued at the end of Fate.
I don't recall what happens to Ilya in UBW, I think she gets to survive because the grail never actually gets summoned ? My memory is blurry.

>>156627985
Because they are the best characters.

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What is a man without his Ideals?

Emiya.

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>>156628120

>>156628120
Assuming you have those flipped around, they mention Illya is adopted by Taiga's family and she has happily become the alpha tigress of the pack.

>>156627782
>because the plot never really puts him in front of hard choice with no plot devices to save him
Well:
>he objectively feels like Sakura's live is more important to him than the lives of people he won't ever met
Seems like HF uses a plot device to specifically condemn any action that isn't saving Sakura.

So it's not that HF's resolution/message is that the other two choices were wrong (though UBW is a near-perfect rebuttal of Fate), but that Shirou's actions were the only ones he could take with such a view of Sakura. Arguably, HF's decision is outside of a just-unjust paradigm, since Shirou deterministically couldn't bring himself to do anything but save Sakura, save Sakura, save Sakura.

>>156627737
Neither were dead endings, they were just other endings.

>>156627071
The puppet body is irrelevant as the problem stems with Illya using the bastardized copy of the Third Magic on Shirou. Just as the Heroic Spirits turned Servants are mere copies of the originals, so to is Shirou just a copy of the Soul that inhabited Shirou's body.

Emiya Shirou dies at the conclusion of HF, in ideal, in spirit, in body and in fact.

>>156628271
Does Illya actually copy Shirou's soul or just put it into the puppet body?
There's an important difference between the two.

What does Zouken do after the Fate route?

>>156628344
Hang out with Shinji and Sakura like the cool Grandpa he is.

>>156628393
Shinji's dead, though. Nobody is standing in his way at that point.

>>156628271
>just a copy of the Soul
The soul is pretty much what defines a human being, to the point that a replacement body shapes itself after it. Zouken managed to do just fine for centuries using worms of all things for a vessel before his soul started degrading, so a single soul transfer into a vessel as great as Touko's puppet is nothing.

>>156628463
He would mourn for Shinji then.

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At least the movies will be good:
> ufotable music budget
> Dick Worms and Mapo Tofu being animated
> Yuki Kajiura soundtrack
> Probably gonna be uncensored as well otherwise it would have been on TV

>>156628591
Heaven's Feel is the darkest Fate story, so I hope they keep all the horror/gore/violence/intensity. For example.. Saber cutting Archer in half, Berserker cutting Shirou in half, Saber destroying Rider because Shinji decides to fight Shirou, Assassin ripping hearts out, the worms all over the temple grounds, etc

>>156628337
There is a Bad End where Illya transfers Shirou's consciousness into a puppet body, but there his body is alive which is strictly speaking just a transference of consciousness, the same she did with the bounded field and his senses in HF to show her castle. Same thing happens in Prisma Drei with Rin, Luvia and Illya when they're caught by the Ainsworth.

What the Greater Grail does is imitate the Third Magic, Heaven's Feel to copy a soul and give it the ability to manifest in exchange for magical energy to reject the World's corrective influence.

>>156628465
Sure, just as a Servant is the Heroic Spirit it is based off of, so is the Shirou we see in HF True "Shirou" as well. Touko does the same thing; it's like theoretically Perfect Projections. It's the same stuff, but it's not the same one.

Shirou dies, just as he did at the conclusion of the 4th War, to cease being an incomplete person.

>>156628210
I'm not arguing that either path is wrong or correct, only that in Fate and UBW Shirou gets some respite to try and actually integrate his trauma in a real personality and make something out of it, while in HF he gets thrown directly into a situation where he can't make the "right" choice.
Not even Archer had to make this sort of decision when he started his fall, to him it was always numbers.

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>>156628673

Metal.

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>>156628673
Hassan clawing his way out of Kojiro's body, the Shadown melting people in the night, Sakura masturbating to the thought of crippling Shirou so he can't leave, sword bursting out inside Shirou...

HF better not skimp on the gruesome details; FSN was always gory as fuck.

>>156628874
Yet people say FZ is the edgiest story! Kind of is because of Caster's torture, which was mostly cut in the show

>>156628673
They could probably get away with simple "torture" and attempted rape.
As long as they keep Sakura's backstory from when she fell for Shirou, that is also the plot point for her to turn psycho.

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>>156625677
Zero is a failed retelling of the happenings as described in the VN.

I say failed, because as we know from the Zero ending as well, Kiritsugu would be the absolute utilitarian. Him joining the HGW, he would sacrifice anything for result, for the absolute utilitarian ideal, saving everyone, meaning anyone would be sacrificed for that end. So when he does things like evacuating people before setting off a bomb, when he always kills people you are given a reason to hate, but never a single one you might find a reason to like, then I just think they went too soft on him to preserve the image of a hero.
"Yes, he killed. He did not think like you about not involving innocent people. He thoroughly attacked his enemy's weakness, allowing no chance to counterattack. He used the enemy's family as a shield and their friends as their shackles to win the war.""
Sure, one can try to explain it by saying Kirei's lying, but as we know by the end of Zero, that's how Kiritsugu's mind operated. It just seems like they tried to preserve likability of the character by never making him do things that would make you dislike him.

>>156629083
He beat up Shinji's dad.

>>156629083
Do you not remember the part when he took a guy's wife hostage and baited him into making him helpless before stabbing him in the back?

>>156629083

Kerry was a tragic character; I'm glad they spent two episodes on his origins and backstory.

The ends do in fact justify the means, regardless of what anyone else may tell you.

>>156629328

Do people forget that it's a Holy Grail WAR and not a Holy Grail patty-cake session?

If you don't what it takes then take refuge in the church like a bitch.

>>156629328
I think the point he is making that all the bad things Kerry did he did to people the reader would not mind bad things happening to.

>>156629340
>The ends do in fact justify the means, regardless of what anyone else may tell you.
So you haven't read Zero or SN?

>>156628804
>where he can't make the "right" choice
This is the part I'm taking issue with; "make the right choice" is more accurately substituted with "maintain the initial choice".

Take HF Shirou or his philosophy and put him a situation other than HF, and any semblance of "right" breaks down to something seen overwhelmingly as immoral. If it's worth sacrificing a thousand to save Sakura, is it worth a million? A billion? The entire human species? Existence bar Sakura?

HF Shirou's beliefs aren't an unconditional "right", but a conditional "most fit" for the situation of HF.

>>156629083
This flashback will be mostly Fate/Zero footage in the movies

>>156629083
It's weird how they gave Waver a stand-in family and Kiritsugu never exploited that.

>>156629340
I respectfully disagree.

>>156629612

I respect the fact that you don't agree with me.

Doctor.

>[Nods]

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>>156629660
>>[Nods]

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>>156629340
>The ends do in fact justify the means, regardless of what anyone else may tell you.
Keep telling yourself that Kerry

>>156622916
Its the least retarded route.

>>156629509
Neither of which actually say it's wrong. And who gives a fuck what some chuunishit VN and LN says? Might as well listen to Code Geass, where the job gets done.

>>156629797
They do.

I would unironically participate in a HGW and take whatever Servant I got and run with it, no catalyst at all

>>156629859
No they don't.

>>156629926
They do

>>156627836
Illya only says it because she would have died, useless doll didn't deserve life

>>156630010
Kill yourself, retard.

>>156629582
Up until the end Kerry always had his priorities on other Masters, it wasn't until the Lancelot shenanigans started they even tried a proper confrontation.

>>156629763

By sacrificing his surrogate mother, he prevented New York from being overrun by Dead Apostles/Vampires/Ghouls.

If he would have killed Shirley when she threw him the dagger, the island wouldn't have had to be purged.

This was his finest moment and proof of his selflessness.

>>156623701

This, remember he wanted to SAVE Shinji during UBW even after all the shit he's pulled. He just lets Ilya into his house in Fate after she's murdered Shinji. He doesn't ever give up on trying to keep people alive until there's no other way. HF just puts the 'save person' above 'fight the enemy to save many'. Helps that he's got long standing crush on sakura and she's been trying to get in his pants as well.

I don't see the problem with exploring a character from multiple angles, establish their core traits then put them into situations where they must make a decision. Same as any person who thinks they'll do something when shit hits the fan, but in reality they probably will not (even those who are trained for that situation will not always act in the manner they are trained for, we all have thresholds).

>>156629966
They don't. The only con presented is personal unhappiness, which has dick to do with whether it's right or wrong.

>>156630045
her life doesn't matter and neither does sakura's when the world is on the line

>>156630233
People you love >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The world

>>156629582

Rider wasn't anything to easily dismiss and they were attached at the hip.

Casters' master was alone = Dead
Lancers' master crippled and loved his wife = Dead

And if he had enough time, he would have bumped the rest of them off in similar fashions.

Rins' father wasn't an easy target and neither was Wolverine.

Beserkers' was living on borrowed time, he could have just waited him out.

I just ask for moderation, you dont have to blow up every problem you come across.

>>156628271
I agree with this. IIRC, the true ending switches to Sakura's narrative perspective. The other times the narration switches from Shirou's p.o.v. it's labeled 'Intermission', but not here. Because the real Shirou is dead and that Shirou is just Illya's shitty copy.

>>156629582
Kiritsugu never cared about Waver because he had bigger fishes to fry. Might have liked him too since he was happy to talk on Iri's phone with him

>>156626026

What I hated more was another option similar to this.

>hey rider I have a kill switch worm in me
>go to shiro, make a contract and go kill zouken for me, tell shirou everything
>I'll probably die die though so to force you to do this I'll blow all my command seals

You could say that suicide wasn't an option given that she'd put up with it for 10 years or so.

>>156630268
In a realistic situation, you just fuck everyone over, including those you love.

>>156630287
Both the prologue to the entire game and the epilogue to the True Ending of Heaven's Feel (the last route in the game) are played from Rin's perspective.

Similarly, Tsukihime has Shiki Tohno meeting Aoko Aozaki in the prologue and epilogue

>>156630287
>Sakura's narrative perspective
Rin's, because the prologue started from her perspective, and HF True is the finale of the VN.

>>156625240
Its a bad end because in his mind he becomes Kiritsugu II. In reality he's a useless ginger with no magecraft and at least half the remaining Servant/Master cast on his back. Even if he somehow manage to asspull himself to a victory, he's still playing straight into Kotomine's hand, who'd be happy to snipe him at the grail with Gil then unleash Angra Mainyu like he wanted.

>>156630370
In a realistic situation, weak minded people would pick the world. The few heroes out there would pick their loved ones

>>156630268
Ideals and the world + everyone else's happiness > people you love

>>156630370

It's every man for himself and the Devil take the hindmost.

>>156630434

>Heroes

Selfish pricks.

>>156630397
nice headcanon, he wins ez pz

>>156630328
Sakura didn't know Zouken's main worm was in her and could take control of her at any time.

>>156630434
Keep telling yourself that, you armchair philosopher. There are people who have made the hard choice of sacrificing those they love to save the lives of many others. It is not heroism to do what comes naturally.

>>156630268
Nah ur just suppose to become an angry angela mayou. If fate gives you shit circumstances, just deal with it. The world is shitty because people think for themselves instead of others.

>>156630373
>>156630375
I thought the true epilogue was Realta Nua?

>>156630480
Go to bed Kerry, you self admitted failure.

>>156630605
>It is not heroism to do what comes naturally.
Exactly. Choosing the world over a single person is what would come naturally.

>>156630434
>The few heroes out there would pick their loved ones

Typical of a wormslut devotee to be this much of a retard.

The entire point of the hero archetype is his selflessness. The hero does things because it's the right thing, the good thing, not because they are personal to him. Although sometimes both can overlap.

Using your example, if a man runs into a burning building to save his kid, but then finds other people in need and does his best to save them as well, he's a hero. If he runs into a burning building to save his kid and takes out just his kid letting anyone else he finds to burn and die? he's not. That doesn't make him a selfish fuck either, it just makes him human.

>>156630615

He had the choice to make his wish come true but he couldn't kill that many people to achieve his dream.

Once again, more proof of how selfless he was.

That's a true hero.

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>>156629340

>>156630742
>it just makes him human
Exactly. HF Shirou finally managed to become human again. Not saving Sakura would be like throwing your own kid into the fire.

>>156630702
No it doesn't, people are naturally prejudiced. To choose your loved ones is more natural than something more abstract like 'the world'.

>>156623914
not at all retard. UBW is easily the most retarded out of them all.

Shiro even knows his dream never comes true, and what does he do? he still goes after the same fucking thing despite knowing the outcome. that's like if the future me told me that if I eat a certain Watermelon from the supermarket tomorrow, I will get a super rare diease and die horribly. and what do I do? I still buy said Watermelon, and eat it.

UBW is the very Definition of being a fucking retard.

and is the worst route for that fact along. also

Rin is Worst girl. has the personality of a packet of Ketchup.

>>156630274
It's more a fault of team Tohsaka to never send a few Hassans to bait the Servant away from the master and have some others swoop in for a quick kill. Zayd could flick ball bearings hard enough to break crystals; he surely could headshot some fools.

>>156622916
>Why doesn't my mentally scarred protagonist act like a functional human being??

>>156630742
The selfish thing is that one that is easier for you. Rationalizing people's lives with numbers is easy. Becoming the enemy of the whole world is not.

>>156630897
If you were given 2 buttons, one that would kill one person you love and the other would kill everyone else, most people would pick the one person if they were forced to pick one.

>>156630613
Realta Nua was something Nasu wanted to add for the re-release. I forget the reason. Someone probably has the quote

>>156630987
>forced to pick
So you admit it's not natural to choose others over those you love? Thanks.

>>156630945
Saber and Caster contribute more to UBW than Rin does. She's more of an ally type of character then a love interest even in her own route.

To start off with weak villains in UBW(not in terms of power), Gilgamesh characterization changes in order to be the foil for Shirou, Medea and a teacher still didnt feel like a threat even if the situation said they were, villains have to go retard for mc to have a chance at times, they go on a date in the middle of the war, retarded actions, romance feels unfitting somehow, Rin punching out caster is stupid, it lead to eons of shitposting due to people not understanding compatibility fights, it had good moments and people tend to just remember those moments as though they're the entire route, but the route as a whole is lacking outside of a few moments. It peaked at archer vs shirou, while shirou vs gilgamesh really wasn't great. It feels like the shortest route, where the least amount was actually touched upon overall. It just revolves around two points, it isn't the story of many people but of two people. other routes tie in the themes and various characters maybe a bit better. it was the only route lancer got his chance to shine, but still all he got was two scenes.

UBW had the worst kind of writing. Rin arbitrarily decides to go in a date for no fucking reason, knowing they are in danger because war where there was no rush about it (if was Shirou with Saber, at least it made sense). At least Fate/HF didn't have that shit.

>>156630274
Kerry has literal sights on Kayneth for an extensive time and the story keeps bullshitting ways for him not to take a shot.

>Oh wait Assassin's still around
>Oh wait, Rider just barged in
>Oh wait, let's just see how this plays out

And then he went on to nearly get killed by a Boy and his Blob.

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>>156622916
But he didn't.
He tried his hardest in the situation he was given to save everyone.
He never betrayed his ideal in HF, he just wasn't successful like in the past two routes.

>>156630783
Twisting his dream into
>hurr no once can be sad if there is no one left at all
was never what he wanted. He just realized that his dream was impossible, not even possible by the grail's twisted means because that was never what he wanted. He considers himself to be a failure and not a hero because the end was all that mattered to him, and he could never achieve it.

>>156630945

He had no choice in the matter. He had to become Archer because Archer is the how he was able to gain the strength to achieve his dream.

His little detour with Rin to the Clock Tower was exactly that, a detour; he went to walk the same path as Archer.

No time paradoxes on my watch.

>>156622916
The biggest problem with Heaven's Feel is the fact that Sakura stole Illya's route

>posting the pasta

>>156630613
HF Normal is Sakura's pov, HF True is Rin's pov. Your point still stands.

>>156630945
And that's why you'll never have a reality marble. Or change the world in any meaningful and lasting way. Enjoy mediocrity.

>>156631082
It's the natural thing to do when put in such a circumstance, but you don't seem to be interested in seriously discussing anything so whatever.

>>156630958

>Tohsaka

He was weak and a kiss ass.

Mages and their obsession with honor/formalities.

Look where it got him.

The Alchemy family got smart and brought in a killer to take care of business.

The Worm family was playing thinking long term.

>>156631084
>It feels like the shortest route,
It is, by a large margin. It's obvious Nasu just wrapped things up after Archer as there's no more real choices until Gil is defeated. Still best route.

>>156631330
nope worst route.

>>156631297
>The Alchemy family

>>156631293
You're confusing natural with ethical, but I'll accept your concession since you've realized you're too dumb for this.

>>156631125

Yeah, the truth is a hard pill to swallow sometimes.

Like praying to God and then finding out there's no such thing.

Besides, wasn't he cursed by the tainted grail to waste away? Hard to keep up the good fighting while you're wasting away to nothing.

>>156630987
Heroes aren't human and it's easier to save those you know rather than sacrifice them for those you don't and live with the pain of it.

>>156631404
It doesn't matter what you call it. The fact is, most people would do the natural/ethical thing.

I can't wait to see Sakura's honkers

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>>156631354
Beeeeest rooouuute.

>>156631354
Archer/Caster though

>>156631503
again nope. worst route. it's by defacto the worst route. it has worst girl, worst chioces.

and it's only good point is lancer actually does something.

>>156630987
>The selfish thing is that one that is easier for you
The selfish thing is - by definition - the thing which benefits you the most. Saving people you'll never be affected by in any way is objectively less selfish than saving the people you're most positively affected by.

If you expand the scope of "benefit" to include the moral discomfort from making a choice you consider immoral, and posit that heroism is choosing the most personally undesirable option in light of that "moral benefit", that would cause moral paralysis. The most morally discomforting option becomes the most morally comforting option, which means you need to select the next most morally discomforting option, et cetra.

That's insanity.

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>>156631400

>"The Magecraft of the Einzbern family, which follows the Thaumaturgical School of Alchemy"

>>156631553
>Lancer continues his fight with Saber in Fate route
>Lancer continues his fight with Archer in UBW route

Bravo, Nasu

>>156631553
Best fights, best themes, best heroine and best pacing. Best route.

Can we start the serious discussion now?

Illya = Caren > Rin > Saber > Caster > Rider > Sakura > Bazett > Ayako > Sella > Liz > those 3 girls form school

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>>156631602

>Selfish
>Insanity
>Immoral

These are simply words and one can easily interpret them how they see fit to justify/rationalize their actions.

Also, what is a man?

>>156631652
nope. worst girl, worst pacing by far. not even that great of a theme.

it's worst route shiter, you should get your shit taste checked.

>>156622916
Except he didn't. He struggled with his choice the entire route. He talked about Sakura's condition and possibly euthanizing her multiple times, and even toward the end after they've racked up 10+ affection points (Sakura route has an unnatural large affection check. There are choices that net you 3-6 points in one go), he tried to kill her again. That was a choice given to you (him), unaffected by any mechanics. If you chose to try and kill Sakura, Rider kills you, but no matter how much he loved Sakura, he still had the option of killing her in the back of his mind.

Ultimately, he managed to save the girl, and paid for his sins by sacrificing himself to save the world, destroying the Grail, the same thing the other two "heroic" Shirou managed to achieve.

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>>156622916
More like
>I'm very passionate about my ideals, but following my ideal will inevitably lead to the death of my loved ones and many others
>I choose to sacrifice my own ideals so that the people I love will be happy and live a full life

>>156631494
>Most people
Don't weasel. You know it's natural to be prejudiced, but it would be 'wrong' to choose your loved one in this situation. That's why there's a dilemma: ethics aren't natural. To choose your loved ones is to do what comes naturally.

>>156631712
Nah man, your over-reliance on crudeness shows your inferiority in this matter.

>>156631602
Having to live with the lives of everyone-1 over your head is a lot harder than having to live with just 1 over your head. Most people are selfish, and most people would choose to sacrifice the one loved person instead of everyone else in the world, it all fits perfectly.

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>>156622916
>Not wanting to save your waifu and protect her until the very end.

Get a load of this faggot.

>>156631801
Do you agree that most people would not chose the loved one?

>>156631807
>causing the most discomfort to themselves which is someone you actually care about comparable to literal whos
wew

>>156631084
I recognize this pasta:

>Gilgamesh characterization changes in order to be the foil for Shirou,

Yep, he does. He's consistent between Fate, HF, Hollow, and Zero. UBW makes some left field changes for the sake of the narrative.

>Medea and a teacher still didnt feel like a threat even if the situation said they were

That's just like, your opinion, man. Really, that comes down to preference and at their peak they had 4 Servants on their team.

>[Rin and Shirou] they go on a date in the middle of the war, retarded actions

Virtually every enemy encounter in FSN and Zero is either at night or way out in the sticks (Forest), so it is relatively safe and Saber was with them. What more would they need. The whole scene was Rin trying to figure out Shirou as a person, a major point in development. Then Caster promptly holds Taiga hostage and uses her against them. What the hell are you complaining about here.

>Rin punching out caster is stupid, it lead to eons of shitposting due to people not understanding compatibility fights

So you acknowledge it's explained. If other people are too dumb to understand it that's their problem.

>It peaked at archer vs shirou

As it should have. That was the crux of the entire route

>It feels like the shortest route

It is

>where the least amount was actually touched upon overall

You're mad

>Rin arbitrarily decides to go in a date for no fucking reason, knowing they are in danger because war where there was no rush about it (if was Shirou with Saber, at least it made sense)

Now I'm questioning whether you even read/watched it.

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>>156631553
But can he English?

>>156631652
Caster was a shit midboss which wasn't threatening at all. Her legitimacy relied on Saber jobbing when she could easily dispatch Servants even if she was empty of mana a route ago. All to make Shirou competent as a match for Servants. It took ufotable to shill her a little and tweak her to be an actual threat. She was just a laughable in the VN. Failed to convey Herakles' unmatched strength of obstacle or Zouken 'he never dies and manipulates the fuck of us' Matou's creepiness.

Gilgamesh fighting Shirou was the biggest mistake of a climax. Neither character had a connection or gave much of a shit for each others. Kotomine is the ultimate Nemesis vs Shirou. It's even in Shirou's fucking CM profile. Gilgamesh is Saber's Nemesis while Kotomine is Shirou's, so their battle was completely dumb and empty. And just devised to wow autistic powerlevelfags.

I fucking hate when Masters get involved in a Servant's battle outside of support. I'm glad Nasu dropped that shit in other works. UBW route was the definition of cancerous Master fighting Servant shit and getting away with it I fucking hate it. Not just Shirou, but also Rin and Kuzuki. It was just completely out of place now in Fate franchise where Masters stay behind Servants like they should. Or fight other Masters.

The endings were pretty bad too. That's why Nasu had to rewrite it for the anime. Originally, it lacked any actual touching sense of conclusion than HF or Fate endings did.

>>156631921
You are delusional if you think most people could live with the weight of directly murdering everyone bar 1. People kill people they love all the time though.

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Aside from Acht, is there any other non-homunculus Einzbern? I mean, Iris, Illya and Justeaze were all homunculi.

What about the human Einzberns?

Wait, not even Jubstacheit is a human anymore, right? Living for 200 years and all that.

>>156631807
It's a self-contradicting concept. You choose the option you most want to choose. If you save the one because you want to stand in opposition to everyone else wanting to save the many, it's still the option you most want, ergo selfish by your idiotic definition.

>>156632047
>push a button to kill random people who don't affect my life and I won't immediately notice
vs
>My wife or child right next to me
any normalfag knows the outcome being the selfish cunts they are.

>>156622916
>third best girl

You've still got Caster and Rider after Saber and Illya before you get to Sakura

>>156631712
HF has the best atmosphere. It's closest to Tsukihime in that regard. Each night someone is dying in the background, there's some Eldritch horror in the background, the entire grail war is in dissarary. Forget about your wish and desires, the remaining masters have to team up just to survive. The situation is the most hopeless and dark in a nice way.

However it's a lot more than that, it's the human route, and it's the route where every character motivation ties into the past in an interesting way. Shirou learns the truth about Kiritsugu in the first few days, he reaches a climax as he can no longer be a robot, he feels genuine emotions that are tearing him up as he can no longer bring down the knife. Just like when he threatened to kill Rin IF she got involved when Taiga was being held hostage in UBW, Sakura was someone precious to him already, they were already very close before the story. This creates a different dynamic from the other heroines. You don't see them falling in love, rather they already have stories about each other like in the shed scene when they muse about old events, a broken vcr, themselves as children. Shirou's dynamic in this route ties closest with Kotomine obviously, as Kotomine himself mentions.

Meanwhile Sakura and Rin's dynamics are tied together. Rin oddly comes off as more complex than in her own route since she's no longer playing heroine. She's trying her hardest to be the ideal cold magus like her father taught her to be. this is where her story ties into the past, her choices all revolve around her father and trying to live up to his words towards her. She tries her best to be a cold magus, but she's heavily conflicted with her actual nature, her humanity and empathy. The best she can do is put on a front to her sister and act aloof.

>>156632167
I thought it was kill everyone not just a few randos

>>156632167
>can't even follow a conversation
It's not some random people, it's everyone except that one person. You would notice quite quickly if there were only 2 people on earth and you were directly responsible for kill everyone. Also keep in mind that any other loved ones would also be dead

>>156622916
Prisma Illya did it better

>>156631503
This is one of the reasons why I find this fight inferior to the Nero fight in Tsukihime. When Nero fought Shiki, it was a full power fight. He fought Shiki more seriously than he fought Arcueid.
This one, Gilgamesh literally gave his opponent every single advantage you can give, and probably still would have won in the end had it not been 2 v 1.

>>156622916
Wasn't that the point?
This is the route where he betrays his ideals
If he wasn't going to betray his ideals he would've ended up on another route instead of prioritizing Sakura

>>156632047
>directly murdering
That's the critical part. Humans intuitively considering direct harm as more immoral than indirect harm is a bug, not a feature. Reasoning proves that intuition here, like intuition on large- and small-scale physics, is wrong.

>>156632279
>>156632255
same thing with more people then.

>>156632154
So you're saying ever choice that is ever made is selfish, because the person chose it over the alternatives?

>>156632354
Not at all what you said here>>156632167 makes no sense for the scenario that was being discussed. A few randos vs everyone-1 is not "just more people".

>>156632167

I'm one of the most selfish people I've ever encountered in my 31 years on this rock and even I would save the many before a few family.

I saw half-eaten pigeon on the ground that a cat had caught; it was still alive and you could see its internal organs. I picked it up and snapped its neck without hesitation.

It was suffering and I performed an act of mercy.

And once again, this is coming from an extremely selfish man/man-child.

>>156632354
Those are 2 very different scenarios. Killing everyone but your most loved is unthinkable at least to me.

>>156631553
back in fate route shirou had a huge crisis about the victims of rider’s boundary field, because he couldn’t truly say that they were saved. they may have survived, but everyone who got trapped in that bounded field would carry the consequences of it for possibly the rest of their lives.

ubw shirou isn’t concerned with that at all. if they’re alive they’re alive, that’s enough for him to consider them saved. he doesn’t question what it means to really be saved like fate shirou, because unlike fate shirou he doesn’t question the validity of his ideals at all. “what it means to save someone” is simple: he was saved when kiritsugu saved his life, so people who get to live are saved.

it’s a simplified view but its not necessarily wrong. anything is possible as long as you’re still alive after all, so even if someone he saved is mentally damaged they still have a chance to heal. someone who’s dead is just dead. if he concerns himself with saving both the life and soul of everyone he sees he’ll end up not saving anyone at all.

also, he doesn’t seem to consider himself damaged the way fate shirou does. even though he’s called twisted for not valuing his own life, he doesn’t really consider it a problem because, even at the cost of his own life, wanting to save others can’t possibly be wrong. that’s why he doesn’t consider the mental health of others either.

>>156632430
everyone who isn't my significant other is a rando, only thing is that life will be more manual

>>156631893
Most people would do it because it's the right thing to do, as opposed to what comes naturally (to choose the loved one). You wish to argue that if 'most people' do it, it cannot be heroic. It is heroic because not only is it right, it comes at great personal expense. As opposed to something that is unethical and self-serving, which makes it unheroic.

There can be existential angst either way, but that's irrelevant. You either choose to do what is ethical or what comes naturally.

>>156632514
Spoken like a true edgelord.

>>156632380
I'm saying that the idiot's definition of "selfless" as desiring undesirable actions is self-contradictory nonsense. Such a definition would, as you noted, make any action infinitely "not selfless". Which is insane.

>>156632539
So you think most people are selfless?

>>156632514
Not everyone is an edgelord so that doesn't really apply to the masses

>>156632637
love isn't edgelord tho

>>156632637

You never know, really.

I'm selfish as fuck but if came down to it, I would do what was "right" and save the many over a few loved ones.

>>156632590
It's only "desiring undesirable" if your only options are "undesirable" and "even less desirable", which this scenario is.

>>156632042
>Caster was a shit midboss which wasn't threatening at all.
Bullshit, truly spoken like someone who didn't read the VN. After Fate, where Saber and Avalon prove that Shirou can damn near survive anything, what could be the worst possible thing that could happen to him? Both get taken away. Caster served perfectly in her role to show that one doesn't need pure power to win the Holy Grail War. If Archer hadn't been three steps ahead of everyone, Caster would have won, plain and simple.

>Gilgamesh fighting Shirou was the biggest mistake of a climax
Bullshit, they're the biggest opposites in the damn series. Kotomine is the same as Shirou, thus they have no real friction. Shirou even says that he likes the guy despite everything, meanwhile Shirou hates Gilgamesh's guts and Gil hates Shirou back twice as much.

>Nemesis
Yes and Rin, Sakura and Illya are Archer's worst enemies. Those things refer purely to their personalities, in terms of being at a disadvantage when dealing with them.

>I fucking hate when Masters get involved in a Servant's battle outside of support.
So you hated Fate and HF, too. Okay, cool. Why are you here then?

>The endings were pretty bad too. That's why Nasu had to rewrite it for the anime.
You seem a bit confused. Rewrite does not mean "expanded upon", as Nasu did with half a dozen other scenes as well in the anime and changed several of the key scenes. Brilliant Years was the single best ending in the VN, showcasing Shirou at the best mix between his personal happiness and pursuing his ideals.

>>156632637
>So you think most people are selfless?
I think people can act selflessly or selfishly. Choosing the loved one is a selfish act.

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>>156623914
I won't deny I felt something when this picture came up

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>tfw I summon this guy for the Holy Grail War because I didnt use a catalyst and compatibility put me with this guy.
how fucked am I?

>>156632308
It doesn't matter what Gil does, once he's inside UBW he's done. Hard counter.

>>156633001
Just walk to the church at that point

>>156633020
I dont know if it's a hard counter. Depending on Gil's power reserves he could just out last Archer or Shirou until UBW ends.

>>156632843
To verbatim quote the statement which started this:
>The selfish thing is that one that is easier for you, Rationalizing people's lives with numbers is easy. Becoming the enemy of the whole world is not.

That statement concludes that selflessness is desiring the least desirable action. Nothing about accepting the undesirability of the most desirable option.

>>156633150

Why is Gil so based?

Is is his stance on enjoy hubris?

>>156633324
That was implied because obviously everything in that scenario was undesirable.

>>156633324

Let's paraphrase our old comrade Stalin:

One man dying is a tragedy; a million is a statistic.

>>156633150
That's the thing; he can't. Shirou tapdances all over Gil in melee, nothing he can pull out with instant effect will be able to surprise Shirou who can identify anything short of Ea or Igalima at a glance and those aren't exactly useful when there's a maniac with a sword in your face. If Gil pulls his armor, Shirou has the very same magic devouring weaponry Gil used on Saber back in Fate. Enkidu is useless because Shirou can swordspam his way out of it. Swordspam does nothing and the longer the fight goes on the more weapons break, thus Gil will for more and more cornered as it goes on.

Hard counter as fuck.

>>156633330
Maybe Gil wanted to lose in UBW.

>>156633324
That anon is being desperate to cover his ass. Even Shirou knows he's being selfish. He doesn't bother preaching righteousness or anything. He just wants to save his girlfriend. Being his girlfriend's hero is what matters to him.

>>156630987
How would you become the enemy of the whole world if they're all dead?
checkmate chump

>>156633555
>he thinks people die when they are killed

Gil is basically a woman. You do what he tells you to and he gets bored of you. You ignore or oppose him he's all up in your shit. Do the mistake of actually representing the very values he says he likes and he'll hate your fucking guts.

>>156633445

I never understood why he was talking to Sakura in UBW; was that ever touched on in the series?

Also, Rin is aware that Sakura is her sister in UBW correct?

>>156633555
Based trips confirms.

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>>156622916

>>156633614

Then why did he have such a massive erection for Wolverine?

>>156633624
He was doing his Kingly duties of telling the abomination to kill itself. Of course Rin knows, are you retarded?

>>156633624
Do you mean the anime? That's just the prologue to all 3 stories. It's brought up later in HF. The original anime skipped over it because it isn't relevant to that particular storyline.

>>156633691
Because evryone does, you dumb Zerofag.

>>156633624
It's meant to be foreshadowing for the next route.

He basically tells her to kill herself or he will do something about her which he does in HF, but by then it is too late and the shadow just eats him

>>156633691
>ignore Gil drinking all your wine and lounging in your fucking basement like a hobo
>fucker is all up in his shit
>do what he says for 10 years
>never talks to Kotomine on-screen again

>>156633857
It wasn't too late, he just wasn't serious enough.

>>156633958
What was he supposed to expect from a woman and a child? This is a joke compared to the previous Holy Grail War!

>>156632042
>>Nemesis
Actually, it says
>Dislike: Kirei Kotomine
>Worst enemy: Umekobucha
So unless you wanted a showdown with some plum tea, you're shit out of luck there.

>>156632147
>Aside from Acht, is there any other non-homunculus Einzbern?
>Aside from Acht

Acht is the moving terminal of the automatic system that runs the Homunculus factory. His name is Eight because he's literally the eight model. He's the homunculusiest homunculus there is.

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Ilya!

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>>156634023
What? No. Jubstacheit is a dojikko-moe old man.

>>156633624
>Rin is aware that Sakura is her sister in UBW correct?

You're not supposed to know that until HF but it is hinted, yes

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>>156633020
>>156633443

I wonder, how do install cards pick what Saber/Archer/Lancer/etc. is in the card?

>>156633443
UBW is hard countered by mana pool issue though. GoB is going to win, even Shirou realizes that. His job was to delay Gil so Saber and Rin can nuke the grail. Shirou won in UBW because he forced Gil to acknowledge him, thus winning in spirit, but he wasn't going to last much longer.

Enkidu is garbage against him anyway, the chain is only super effective against Divine beings. On other people, its just a chain

>>156634550
They're hard coded in the card. A werid case happens when Shirou installed the Empty Archer card, and EMIYA responded to his summon.

I'm guessing they create the container/card much like the Servant container in normal Grail Wars, then they summon the heroic spirit into it.

>>156634881
The chain did a good job holding him down until Archer headshotted Gil

>>156633385
If Shirou chose to save Sakura over the world, he chose it because he desired it more, which would be "selfish" by the idiot's definition.
If Shirou chose to save the world over Sakura, he chose it because he desired it more, which would be "selfish" by the idiot's definition.

It's necessary to separate the desirability of options in a choice from the difficulty of evaluating the desirability of those options so a choice can be made. If I need to choose between eating neapolitan and mint ice cream, and find them almost equally desirable, no matter how much I deliberate over which to have, I'll almost always find that choice more desirable than being killed.

The idiot's definition can be revised to "Selfishness is choosing an comfortable but immoral option" to be sane again. However, Shirou choosing to inflict an enormous amount of pain so he could be comforted by Sakura's presence would be "selfish" by that revised definition.

>>156635489
He was completely out of mana against someone with heroic spirit strength. If he was a divine being like Heracles, Gil can wrap it around him and the chain would auto hold him down and carry the unbreakable trait. Against a normal human, he can use a normal chain from any hardware store and it'd have the same effect

>>156633691
He was pretty bored of Kirei by the time of F/SN and pretty much did his own thing.

>>156622916
>my super hero ideals
They were never his ideals to begin with.

>>156635636
Why wasn't Gil afraid of the other servants and masters in FSN? He even says that he was casually watching Saber fight Hercules in the forest.

>>156636216
A combination of merit and ego.

He believes himself to be a gift from God, while also being a very strong servant. Hell, most of the time he's taken out is because he isn't really fighting and more acting like a cat with a mouse he managed to catch.

>>156622916
>bad ending
In name only. Taiga doesn't even chastise you for getting it.

All of the routes are about how his ideals are ultimately bad for him and how the girls try to pull him away from sacrificing himself, so it makes sense that he'd discard them in one. HF is about showing us that it's not fucking worth it and Shirou was right all along.

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>>156622916
Sakura >> the world >> swords >>>>>>>> other girls

Deal with it.

>>156641132
t. Shirou

>>156623905
>>156623914
Sakura is the woman of the franchise and canon wife of Shirou.

>>156626197
>>156641132
Dumb wormposters.

>>156625535
>Whole life is unhappiness.
He has sex with two super hot girls at least once.