Who did it better?

>>156110045
Did what better?

Highschool DxD

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>>156110045
Monogatari had decenty written dialogue at least, even if it often tried too hard.

>>156110436
How is Hyouka generic?

hyouka is ok
monogatari is garbage

>>156110436
How is Bakemonogatari generic?

hyouka is garbage
monogatari is ok

hyogatari is ok
monoka is garbage

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>>156110045
Hyouka had decenty written dialogue at least, even if it often tried too hard.

kagatari is ok
hyomono is garbage

>It's yet another SHAFT vs KyoAni thread

yay?

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>>156110913
When was the last time you saw one of those? SHAFT is a joke now.
Here we just laugh at how awful Hyouka is.

>It's yet another KyoAni vs SHAFT thread

yay?

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>>156110045
>>156110230
>>156110280
>>156110436
>>156110478
>>156110641
>>156110686
>>156110719
>>156110753
>>156110829
>>156110845
>>156110898
>>156110913
>>156110996
>>156111002

You're in a good mood today, Anon-kun. Did something good happen?

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>>156110913
When was the last time you saw one of those?
Kyoani is a joke now.
Here we just laugh at how awful monogatari is.

>>156111083
What's wrong with that?

>>156110996
What's wrong with that?

>>156111160
Garbage awkward dialogue, no real teenager would call himself database and say that he can't draw conclusions, especially in front of people he just met.

>>156111520
>barneyfag
>>>/v/

>>156111533
Hey, he posts here once in awhile if a thread happens to be up.

>>156111465
You posting screenshots and calling it bad is not an argument. Why are those specific lines of dialogue not appropriate for fictional works where metaphors are a huge part of the storytelling, like Hyouka? Why should every character in fiction talk the way you would?

>>156111465
He was explaining his philosophy or way of thinking. It makes sense. Are you saying that dialogue has to be totally mundane in order to be good?

>>156111639
>Why should every character in fiction talk the way you would?
because it's set on earth, not middle-earth

>It's yet another KYAFT vs ShoAni thread

yay?

>>156111639
>fictional works where metaphors are a huge part of the storytelling
Hyouka is grounded in reality, the characters have to behave realistically.
And not being able to include the metaphors without making them feel awkward and forced is sign of bad writing. If you can't even write a decent dialogue, forget layered and symbolic narrative.

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>>156111701
The way the characters explain their philosophies is always forced and unauthentic. I could post dozens of these, real teenagers don't talk this way, this is shit even by anime standards.

>>156111988
You can't just make the claim that it's forced or unauthentic based on a translation. Have you stopped to think that maybe it sounds more than acceptable in Japanese? Regardless, I don't find the things Houtarou says to be that out there.

>>156111465
What anime do you personally think has good dialogue?

Even shitposting is better than the horrible discussion going on itt

>>156112162
>the translation excuse
Reminds me how every LNfag swears that the writing isn't shit, it's the translation's fault.
>>156112194
Without wandering to far off even Hibike had much better dialogue than Hyouka.

>>156111083
They both got too serious once they started making big money.

What happened to the people who made SZS and Lucky Star?

>>156112194
KyoAni shows usually do. K-On, Hyouka, Tamako, Hibikek.

>>156112430
KyoAni made TSR before Lucky Star

>>156112249
>Stop discussing anime!
Okay.

>>156112338
What other LNfags say is not really something I give a fuck about.

In any case, "real teenagers" is a shitty argument. Sometimes people use words or sentence structures outside their comfort zone to explain abstract concepts, and I think that's plausible enough, unless you hang around people who don't discuss that kind of thing at all. A better example of truly awkward translation were some of those screenshots of Persona 5 dialogue that were floating around - they all concerned situations that should be really simple to talk about in theory, but the whole translation made them sound really... off.

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>>156112752
>Sometimes people use words or sentence structures outside their comfort zone to explain abstract concepts, and I think that's plausible enough

>>156112791
Yeah, phrased like that, it does sound exceedingly pretentious. The point is that it's not implausible to think he lacks the knowledge to formulate that sentence on the spot, so he could have a moment to "show off" in front of Houtarou. Also,
>translation

>>156111786
It's still fiction.

>>156111851
>the characters have to behave realistically.
according to whom?
>And not being able to include the metaphors without making them feel awkward and forced
Subjective
>is sign of bad writing.
according to whom?
>If you can't even write a decent dialogue, forget layered and symbolic narrative.
Grasping at straws and non-sequitur

>>156111988
you do realize he didn't even say that out loud, right?

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>>156113279
he says equally cringey things out loud as well

>>156110045
KnK when it killed Monogatari AND Madoka

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>>156110045

>>156113279
You're right, I should have posted the terrible exposition of his philosophy in the opening scene. Maybe someone can help me out with the webm.

I like how I'm seeing so many more examples of cringeworthy dialog from Hyouka than Monog.

>>156110045
You can hate Monogatari as much as you want but hell, at least it's more interesting than Scooby Doo school edition.

>>156112791
>dive into the depths of the labyrinths of wisdom

Holy shit, if that's not the most pretentious sentence ive heard in the past year

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How are we even comparing these shows?

>>156113421
monogatari is unashamedly trashy with its dialogue, hyouka is just pretentious

>>156113357
and you do realize Oreki and Satoshi are supposed to talk like pretentious teenagers, right? Explain to me why literally nobody else in the show talks like that. If you so insist that the author can't write good dialogue, show me bad dialogue that isn't Oreki or Satoshi.

>>156113364
Oh yeah, they ripped off Madoka a whole year before Gokumi. Thank you based Kinoani.

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>>156113279
>>156113420
i got you m8

>>156113451
Such as...?

>>156113421
That's because monogatari isnt nearly as pretentious as hyouka

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>>156113456
>show me bad dialogue that isn't Oreki or Satoshi.

>>156113512
>>156112791

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>>156111988
>real teenagers don't talk this way
This is always a stupid way to judge dialogue. Real speech is not conducive to entertaining or coherent fiction.

>>156113537
What's bad about that?

>>156112430
Shaft never got overly serious though? Monogatari is the perfect balance between light hearted, parodic comedy and serious character drama, and it's still Shaft's flagship title. And they're still producing straight comedy shows like Sasami, Nisekoi and Graffiti. I agree that KyoAni has been doing too many serious shows these past few years, but just last season saw them returning to comedy form with Maidragon.

>>156113421
That would be because Hyouka largely takes itself seriously and tries to act as if its characters are all real people. Monogatari establishes that it's characters, scenarios and interactions are all fantastical, exaggerated and metaphorical from the very start. Characters talking in ways you wouldn't expect your nextdoor neighbour to isn't that jarring when those characters are also superpowered lolis standing in the middle of vast, impossible lanscapes.

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>>156113240
>according to whom?
Is the story a character drama grounded in reality? So why shouldn't the character behave like real human beings?
>Subjective
Sure thing.

>>156113571
I meant examples of bad Monog dialog.

>>156113537
That's not bad dialogue. It's behavior you don't like. "I'm curious" may not be something you say out loud like that in English, but "ki ni naru" is not an uncommon phrase in japanese.

>>156113619
it's fucking annoying

>>156113633
i didn't mean trashy in a bad way, i meant in a fun way.

Hyouka's dialogue is intentionally unrealistic as a stylistic choice.

Lots of anime that /a/ circlejerks endlessly also do this such as Tatami Galaxy or Aria. Hyouka just gets shit because it's Kyoani.

>>156113607
that's true but does these kinds of dumb lines add anything to the dialogues? I mean who really thought the database metaphor added anything to the characters? People can't have a 100% "database" brain, so at least don't bring that up every episode because you make it seem like something serious when it shouldn't be

>>156113633
It just has bad dialogue; the courage to be a shit show.

>>156113625
This. The only real "no smiling allowed" Shaft titles are Madoka and EF.

>>156113482
Nice visual storytelling you have going on there Kyoani.
Bravo

>>156113632
>why shouldn't the character behave like real human beings?
I guess Shakespeare is a shit writer because nobody talks like that. No wonder anime fans are looked down on if they're this stupid to not be able to tell reality and fiction/entertainment apart.

>>156113695
>implying mars boat people don't talk entirely in arara ufufu combinations and memes about embarassing comments

>>156113695
Hyouka gets shit because is boring as fuck and simpy retarded. You must have some mental illness to enjoy this shit, really

Monogatari's dialogue is intentionally unrealistic as a stylistic choice.

Lots of anime that /a/ circlejerks endlessly also do this such as Tatami Galaxy or Aria. Monogatari just gets shit because it's SHAFT.

>>156113751
what's wrong with it?

>>156113758
>comparing hyouka to shakespeare
now you've gone full retard

>>156113695
>Hyouka's dialogue
Not even that, it's just Oreki's and Satoshi's way of talking. Literally every other character's lines are way better than the average anime.

>>156113838
>Chitanda "I'm curious!"
that only leaves Mayaka.

>>156113825
>grasping at straws

>>156113838
>Literally every other character's lines are way better than the average anime.
yeah i really enjoyed hearing I'M CURIOUS every time chitanda opened her retarded mouth

or that retard mayaka calling a manga written by a middle schooler a masterpiece

>>156113809
Did Hyouka rape you?

>>156113724
Of course people can't have a database brain. That's an important sentiment because it defines his self perception, it doesn't matter if it's possible.

>>156113816
It's exposition for the viewer terribly implemented justified.
The characters are literally asking each others to say things they already know. The worst kind of tell don't show.

>>156110045
Make me sleep?
Hyoka

>>156113922
yes, so if that's perception is kinda dumb he shouldn't bring it up so much or more people should feel awkward when he says it and question it
it's played up too seriously for what it is, I think

>>156113865
"I'm curious" is not bad dialogue, and there are many more characters in Hyouka.

>>156113758
You're a fucking idiot. Hyouka's dialogue is not theatrical, it's just poor and awkward.

>>156114014
Yes it is, when it's some sort of catchline that defines the character so much people only remember that

>>156113838
>Literally every other character's lines are way better than the average anime
Come on now

>>156113838
that is quite the bold statement youve made there buddy

>>156113724
>People can't have a 100% "database" brain, so at least don't bring that up every episode because you make it seem like something serious when it shouldn't be
No, but a dumb teenager like Satoshi trying to find and define his own identity during a confusing part of growing up might think that his brain is 100% a database, and given that the story is set from his and other dumb teenager's POV, it'd seem like something serious to them. Hyouka is a coming of age story with a target demographic of teenagers, expecting all the characters to think and act like fully mature adults is ridiculous.

>>156114067
I guess ALL of monogatari has bad dialogue then because "Oops I bit my tongue" is said by snail every other episode.

>>156113695
>even comparing Morimi's dialogue to this shit
Hyoukafags should be hanged.

>>156113901
Yeah, it raped my patience. Seriously, why the fuck do you guys like this crap really? I can understand liking some dumb shit that's at least fun, I can understand liking some slow show that's actually well written but fucking Hyouka spent an entire episode with those dumbfucks trying to understand why the teacher was angry.

Hell not even the cases are really dumb but the way they "resolve" them is also retarded

>>156114067
Maybe YOU only remember that, but you certainly aren't representative of everyone else, especially not people who actually like the show and Chitanda's character.

>>156114164
I don't really like Monogatari's overuse of catchlines either. I think these should be used more sparringly and it's actually one of the reasons I tend to buy official translations that tend to reduce the number of these by localizing and replace them with more natural stuff.

It's only a part of it, though, what matters more is what's said other than the catchlines.

>>156114164
As someone said Monogatari's dialogue is intentionally unrealistic, meta, "anime". The character themselves have absurd characterizations with superhuman intelligence and so forth.
No sense in bringing it up.

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snek a shit

>>156114178
How is Yasaburou's constant mentioning his "fool blood" to excuse his behavior any different from Satoshi's constant mentioning of his "database mind" to explain what he can't do? Seriously, stop acting like either is bad dialog.

>>156114295
what you're saying is literally
>it's OK when monogatari does it!
just because Monogatari has a more surreal setting doesn't mean Hyouka isn't allowed to use the same sort of storytelling devices in a more grounded setting.

>>156114227
>Hyouka spent an entire episode with those dumbfucks trying to understand why the teacher was angry.
You're just screaming that you didn't understand the appeal of the show. You can't complain that other people do.

>>156114454
No one is saying its not allowed

Hyouka can do whatever the fuck it wants. And it chose to put shit ass dialogue in a shit ass setting. If monogatari tried to take itself as seriously as hyouka, we'd all be saying it's shit, too. But Nisio makes it known the fact that monogatari series is surreal and "out-there" as they say, which makes the dialogue not seem nearly as cringey as hyouka

>>156114454
It goes way beyond surreal, Monogatari from the start is a self aware play on anime clichés with continuous breaking of the fourth wall
While Hyouka is a realistic character drama.

>/a/utists having any kind of idea what realistic dialogue is

I expected this thread to be shit just by looking at the title, but jesus christ guys, you didn't have to exceed my expectations by this much.

>>156114454
He probably means Monogatari is a fantasy story. The little girl who says that catchphrase is an adult ghost who wondered alone for almost a decade without ever finding her way and no one can see her. Not a normal teenager going to school.

>>156114592
I disagree. What are you going to do? Cry because people like things you don't?

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>>156114645
Are you angry, anon-kin?

>>156110045
You mean which one was the most pretentious? Bake
Hyouka was more Kino in his visual direction but also more boring

>>156114396
Yasaburu does so 95% of the times in internal monologues.
When he brings it up out loud, it's with family members or other tanuki that already share that sentiment.
And a son saying that he inherited his father's traits isn't the same as a teenager autistically calling himself database.

>>156114295
I think the whole "meta anime" angle is overplayed when discussing Nisioisin's works in general, and especially for Monogatari. The characters in Monogtari act theatrically and over dramatically because Nisio likes writing characters that way and takes inspiration from other writers who did (Murasaki, Ranpo, etc) not as any kind of statement about how characters act in anime. As can be seen from his other works which have no relevancy to anime whatsoever, yet still have super theatrical and dramatic characters, such as Zaregoto and Katanagatari. Monogtari has its parodic comedy that makes fun of anime tropes, and its gimmick that takes anime archetypes and turns them into realised characters, but the reason those characters act the way they do is not because of that.

>>156112338
It's not remotely wrong to say that an amateur, mishandled translation will make a work's dialogue and prose worse. Going with your example, most LNs might be shit to begin with, but that doesn't mean they're not going to be even worse when translated by an ESL retard working from a Chinese translation. Of course, anime doesn't have to worry about poorly translated prose so much since it's a visual medium, but dialogue is an area that would be effected by a shitty translator. If you're going to take a critical approach of the dialogue of any media, it's best to do so with consideration to the original language.

>>156113724
I don't care to argue about the merit of Hyouka's dialogue, it's beside my point. Whether something is "realistic" or not is a terrible measuring stick for any media, even realist works.

>>156114817
And Oreki and Satoshi only talk like that within their close group of friends.

>>156110045
I want to commit suicide. I don't plan on swallowing pills, or hanging myself, I plan on watching all of Monogatari in one week. This should result in brain death from absorbing so much bullshit.

>>156115343
0/10

At least put some effort into trying to be more clever than the material you are bashing

>>156114877
These guys don't actually care about the stylistic differences between the two authors, they're just using Bakemonogatari as an arbitrary point of reference by which to shit on Hyouka.

I find it very interesting that up until about two months ago, you'd rarely see anyone complaining about this alleged "bad dialogue" that all these guys are suddenly so vocal about, and instead you'd see people spamming "zzzz". But now, the "zzz" disappeared and suddenly everyone ("everyone" being a fraction of the 32 posters in this thread) cares about the dialogue. It's almost as if it's a vocal minority that decided the "zzz" wasn't effective shitposting anymore and instead switched over to another shitposting method.

>>156115498
Funny, it seemed like Hyoukafags were trying to excuse their writing by saying that Monogatari did the same things, ignoring the differences in tone and approach of the works.

>>156115718
Sounds like you're just butthurt that people actually watched your show and didn't like it

>>156115718
never liked the zzz meme but the dialogues thing always had me a bit disturbed
of course not as much as spam-kun

>>156115780
Am I? Would I care that this fraction of the 32 posters in this thread have their own opinions when more than 20 thousand people liked the show enough to buy the entirety of it?

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>>156115718
>shitposting
Stop using words you don't know the meaning of. The anons mentioning the awkward dialogue have an actual argument with evidence from the subject at hand.

>>156115718
>I'm gonna dismiss criticism as some kind of conspiracy
Whatever. Personally I forced myself through this series recently after dropping it back then, and I found the writing even worse than I remembered.

>>156115862
>muh sales
Monogatari even has you beat at that

>>156115843
Oh, and I agree that that's definitely not how people talk, but I'm not autistic enough to not see why it's appropriate dialogue for a show like this. I didn't think it sounded natural in any of the 3+ times I've watched the show, but I'm not bothered by it.

>>156115891
Who said I was comparing it to monogatari? I have my own opinions about monogatari and my own reasons for not watching it, but also my own reasons to respect it. What I'm saying is I have no reason to care about other people's opinion when I have my own. What I do care about, though, is it being impossible to discuss the show in this board because every thread is spammed with the same "opinions" every time as if intentionally shitting up the threads.

>>156116110
Don't bother with /v/tards

>>156116110
Did Hyouka ever have a good discussion thread?

>>156115862
Don't make it ad populum. People having opinions, even shitty ones, doesn't invalidate your own. No need to look for some "objective" truth about chinese cartoons like a faggot.

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Hyouka is just a poor man's Haruhi.

>>156116213
Sometimes at night.

>>156116296
Monogatari too. backgrounds are dope though

>>156116296
>Hyouka is just like Haruhi because they are both about high school clubs and Oreki and Kyon are similar.
Do you even process what anime is about past it's surface level?

Hyouka wasn't commie subbed, that's the problem. so redditagatari did better.

>>156113695
Ara ara

>>156115718
Even if I don't agree, this still beats out ZZZposting by a long shot

>>156110996
>SHAFT is a joke now
When their 3 latest Kizu films look better than most new shit out there ? Why the fuck you lyin.mp3

>>156117711
Kizu looks like garbage.

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>>156117865
Objectively false.

>>156117865
Oh..ok - since YOU said it, then it must be true kek.

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>>156117865
This

>>156113951
there is literally nothing wrong with exposition

>>156118129
should be well implemented

>>156117865
maybe stop watching 480p rips

>>156110045
Former is one of the greatest shows ever made, latter is something no one ever talks about.

>>156114454
Umm, Monogatari has literal vampires, ghosts, and other supernatural beings. It is literally a fantasy. Hyouka isn't.

>>156116296
They made poor man's Haruhi before they made the first poor man's Madoka. Sasuga Kinoani, always leading the way.

>>156113951
>asking
Nope. And you can't judge the implementation based on your clip since it's taken out of context.

>>156115718
You rarely see complaints like that for any show, because most people don't understand Japanese and have no ability to judge the dialogue. Going by idiots like >>156112338 that's probably the case with these idiots too ("my edited machine translation gives me the ability to judge the the original writing"). As paranoid as what you're saying sounds, you might have a point. The zzz meme was forced pretty hard by the IRC crowd when it aired and the shitposters probably got a bit desperate now that the effect has worn off.

I think Hyouka is the only show where I'd be okay with lewdly holding hands with the whole cast, even the annoying one

>>156111465
I knew some guy that called himself a human ipod in high school.

So you're already wrong.

>>156121309
Yep. DATABASE is explaining to ENERGY CONSERVATION himself his own philosophy, even asking him to complete his sentence.
Inexcusable exposition for the viewer, since the episode already showcases his behavior multiple times and in case you were too retarded to pick up even that there are always his internal monologues to remind you every 2 minutes.
This series feel like it was written for spectators with 40 of IQ. Always in your face with everything.

>>156122059
Oreki doesn't attend a special class like you and your friend.

>>156122211
>friend
Stop assuming I have the social skills to talk to others, even other social retards.

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>>156121688
The thought process of Hyoukafags confronted with criticism sure is fascinating.

Visual wise Gatari wins hard, Hyouka has really nice shots here and there but overall it's plays out like a normal anime with good production. Original gatari had that "shaft charm" on almost every shot (probably because they had to be interesting with their poor production values).

Stories is almost unfair because all monogataris mysteries deal with the supenatural, that while in itself is not inherently more intriguing, when compared with Hyouka WAY mundane problems it's clear which you are most likely to be invested in.

Character wise the female hyouka cast is boring while the male is decent, monogatari is all around more interesting/fun with exception of snake.

Gatari for me.

>>156122441
Goes for all anus shills.

Hyouka is a masterpiece bildungsroman with more visual storytelling and greater production than every TV anime this decade.

Monogatari is visually inane and falls victim to what it was making fun of quite early on. The main character is garbage and the show supports pedophilia by pretending its ok as long as you acknowledge it.

>>156123575
I wouldn't know about Hyouka; I fell asleep about 10 minutes into the first episode.

>>156123575
>visual storytelling
>>156113482
B R A V O
R
A
V
O

>>156114901
>Whether something is "realistic" or not is a terrible measuring stick for any media, even realist works.

Don't make your characters human if they aren't going to act like humans. The goal of art has been realistic portrayal of the Human Condition since the ancient greeks and it's not changing anytime soon. If you want to watch patronizing unrealistic escapist fantasies then fine, but don't act like that's respected in the art world.

>>156123837
It's a good thing Hyouka characters act like humans then. Don't post any cheap screenshots or meme about catchphrases in response to this to prove me wrong.

>>156123837
And yet you're the one calling Hyouka "a masterpiece bildungsroman" and Monogatari "visually inane".

Also; have you not heard of surrealism?

>>156112752
The only awkward translation on P5 are Igor's lines. The others' are acceptable if you actually know moon and how translation works.

>>156123887
righttttt Chitanda's curiosity is totally subtle and nuanced like a real person, totally not overblown or exaggerated at alllll.
>>156123914
I'm not the same guy. Just calling the other anon out on being stupid.
Surrealism was about dreams and philosophy primarily. They hardly had characters at all, but it was never about anti-realism. It was still about humans.

>>156123887
They act like what a mediocre middle aged writer that has long forgotten his adolescence would imagine teenagers behave like, which would be, nothing like how they should. And that already dooms Hyouka as a failure in the themes regarding growing up that it wants to tackle.

Aria "muh ara ara"
Uchouten Kazoku "muh frog in a well, muh idiot blood"
Tatami Galaxy "muh rose colored campus"
Monogatari "oops I bit my tongue"
Utena "muh end of the world"
Evangelion "muh I mustn't run away"
Ojamajo Doremi "muh I'm the world's unluckiest pretty girl"
Ping Pong "muh hero, muh robot"
Jin-roh "muh red riding hood"

>>156124120
>high school girl
>subtle and nuanced

>>156124259
It's telling that you can't defend the series without making up strawmen.

>>156124259
It would only be bad if KyoAni did any of them.

>>156124259
HERO KENZAN > all

>>156124304
muh "embarrassing remarks are prohibited"
muh "I don't know everything, I only know what I know"
muh "dictionary is like the ocean"

>>156124371
>muh persecution complex
>muh boogyman
Or maybe people just dislike Hyouka because it's juvenile poorly written pedantic crap full of pretense.

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>>156124551
>it's juvenile poorly written pedantic crap full of pretense

>>156124717
You could try reading the thread.

>>156124717
She said she's mentally deficient.

>>156124907
>she

>>156124967
>has

I knew the database autist was posting in this thread.

>>156125710
It seems like there are at least 3 of us.

>>156125888
The thing is that these characters are high schoolers, I used to say similar chuuni things at their age.

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>>156124259
Meanwhile Madoka doesn't have any throwaway "muh" lines because it's literally perfect.

>>156125987
Madoka's character are so shit and monodimensional that make Oreki seems like he's written by Dostoevsky, and Urobochi's wooden dialogue is even worse than Muh Database and Muh Energy Conservation.

>>156126255
>Dostoevsky
>muh mentally damaged characters
Maybe you need to grow wiser before attempting to understand Urobuchi and SHAFT's genius contradictory layers of meta and sincerity

>>156126255
Mami is easily one of the most complex characters in anime history.

>>156124259
>muh I mustn't run away
You fucked it up, could've been
>muhstn't run away

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>>156125987
>Madoka
>anywhere near perfect

>>156117711
You must be delusional.

>>156126938
>I can't into abstraction

>>156124171
Monogarbage's characters act like what a 40-something convicted pedophiliac sex offender who's never had a date he couldn't stuff back in his closet imagines teenagers behave like.

>>156127247
Exaggeration is a thing. They're not supposed to just act like average kids, they're exaggerated characters

>>156127981
>they're not supposed to act like human characters, they're supposed to be pedohile caricatures
BRAVO Nisio Isin
BRAVO SHAFT

>>156128186
Araragi is what, 16/17? Of course he wants to put his dick in everything. I would want to in his position, too.

>>156128315
17-19 by the end of tsuki i think

>>156128186
To be fair, most of those "kids" are older than him.
>ghost girl is actually the same age as him
>vamp is 1000 years old
>corpse girl is physically several decades old

>>156110996
All of kyoanus's top-rated and best-selling shows were made before 2012.

Kinda makes you think.

>Hyouka is so boring no one is discussing it

>>156123837
You're misunderstanding me, I'm not talking about realist works vs escapist fantasies. Real speech is complicated, messy and inefficient. It is not something that is interesting to watch from an outside perspective and it generally doesn't do anything to uphold the artistic intent of a film maker either. Fiction as a whole is constructed specifically to be more efficient than real life ever could be, this applies even to realist works that might, in other aspects, aspire to be "realistic".

>>156110686
You've got that backwards.

>>156128523
>the characters who look exactly like kids are actually 1000 years old so it's ok meme

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>>156129221
Well there's this other excuse he uses...

>>156128694
Fine then, what separates the good characters from the bad characters if we're not judging based on how accurate to life they are? What makes these characters different from say, Kirito?

monogatari is awful garbage
hyouka is audiovisual ambien

>>156124371
Fuyukai desu!

>>156129407
To barely scratch the surface:
Kirito doesn't have any logic to his actions. He has no reasons for being the way he is other than the author's need to create a childishly perfect character who 12yos can idolise. There's no reasoning behind why he's so impossibly better at SAO than anyone else, why every girl he meets falls in love with him, why he suddenly has enough technical skill and knowledge to hack into SAO itself and change the rules of the game when it's conveniant for the plot (not to mention why he doesn't just do that at the very start and break everyone out of it), etc etc. What we're informed of about his charcter through exposition completely contradicts what we are shown in the story itself. He's meant to have a perfect, lovey dovey relationship with Asuna, yet they never tell each other anything important, barely interact when they're with each other, and are perfectly willing to let each other be put into mortal danger when it's, again, conveniant for the plot. The parts of his character that COULD be interesting (his PTSD-like obsession with VR technology, his drive to fully resurrect his AI daughteru) are never expanded upon more than them simply existing and are thus squandered. The list of problems with his character goes on and on.

But none of it relates to him being "unrealistic". It relates to him not following the logic of the story itself. If he had proper reasons behind why he acted in crazy ways and did seemingly impossible stuff, he could be fine. If any of the things related to him were expanded upon, he could also possibly be interesting, but left as barebones as they are, he's boring and unsatisfying to watch. I don't like Hyouka that much and I by no means think it has masterfully written characters. But they make sense in the context of the story through having reasoning behind their actions, and are at least set up to be interesting, even if you don't find them so. Comparing them to Kirito is massive overkill.

>>156129407
Man, all I've been trying to say is that "real people don't talk like this" is a bullshit criticism. I'm not trying to stretch it into some larger point about what is or isn't good character writing. I haven't even watched SAO.

>>156130291
Ok yes but how does that excuse Oreki from being pretty much the exact same character as other pessimistic male leads like Kyon or Hachiman? Writing aside I'd like some originality every once in a while.

>>156129407
I already said I dont think Hyouka's characters are masterfully written. I don't think Oreki is that different, and I think he's a far worse character than Kyon with a far more basic and less engaging character arc. But, answering your original questions of:
>"what separates the good characters from the bad characters if we're not judging based on how accurate to life they are? What makes these characters different from say, Kirito?"
These characters aren't bad characters and are separated from Kirito becuase they follow the logic of their own stories and attempts are made to make them interesting.

>>156130995
Meant to reply to >>156130747