Was the hate for Shirou Emiya largely unjustified?

>>155687750
What hate?

Only secondaries and
>muh womyn can fite!!11!
fags ever hated him.

Shirou is 100% more tolerable once he loses that shirt

No.

I just watched the first season and he's just annoying and nothing he does makes sense. Like he's literally retarded

Shirou is literally the best character of the 2000's、the only people who hate him are fags.

>>155687750
Like >>155687808 said, its the people that watched the anime only and didnt read the VN that really hate shirou.

Yeah he's a stupid fucker sometimes but if you actually see into his mind like youre supposed to by reading the VN, youll understand he's a broken fellow and makes stupid decisions because of that fact. If one only watched the anime then theyll only see his actions and not all his inner thoughts. Fucken secondaries

>>155689479
Except they make it a point that unless you make those stupid decisions, you will most likely meet a bad end. The VN actually rewards him for acting like that.

>>155689712
Well, he does end up getting fucked making the stupid decisions. Just not killed.

I remember some thread on some forum that covered this argument about how shirou's choosing of the stupid options ends up well. They covered tons of the options in the VN and concluded for each one whether the stupid decision was actually a stupid decision and if it was actually the most necessary decision. I have no idea where to find the thread though.

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>>155687750
He's undeniably shit in Fate, and he's a complete idiot in UBW even if he's manly and entertaining about it. He becomes much smarter and better in HF, though, which fits with him finally wisening up and picking best girl there.

yes he's better than banana/toe-know and is also from a mostly better vn than him also
people won't take off their googles though

>>155690153
Dumb wormposter.

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>>155690153
>complete idiot in UBW

Huh?

>>155691519
>just because you're correct doesn't mean you're right

>>155691519
Is this a promo for the original game?

Nah he's a big fucking retard in Fate and god forbid the Deen adapatation.

>>155687750
>shirou
>hate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bAvgpWM3Is

People hate Shirou because he gets all the lasses.

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>>155691619
Close, it's the PS2 version titled Realta Nua from 10 years ago

>>155687808
His whiteknighting was annoying because he was whiteknighting for a fucking immortal ghost. Literally retarded.

>>155687750
People hate him because he's hated.

>>155687750
Yes.

>>155691858
Wow, really takes me back to a simpler more innocent time for the fate franchise, before all the grand order shitfest took hold.

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>>155690153
>which fits with him finally wisening up and picking best girl there.
I agree, but the photo doesn't match with the words. Damn shame that big sister had to show him a miracle in the end though. Don't have a fucking screenshot of the damn scene.

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>>155692086
The good days were before Mahoutsukai no Yoru was released

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4xsfkhcw-A

>>155687750
for being lame? or... what hate are we talking about, the diagetic hate? or to the fans have something?

>>155691848
by that logic we'd hate every anime protaganist,
Granted most anime male protaganists are lame, but since ranma was fucking awesome, there are exceptions to the rule, or jsut and over abundance of shitty written characters.

>>155692585
The "muh generic shonen protagonist who I don't understand because I haven't read the VN" hate.

>>155692585
Childhood is idolizing Archer
Adulthood is realizing that Shirou makes more sense

>>155692737
Don't have to read the VN to understand the character.

>>155692737
so the VN is better written?

>>155692960
Tell that to all the secondaries who never read the church scene in Fate route.

>>155692976
No, he's still a mong in the VN

>>155687818
I feel the same, that fucking shirt.

>>155692791
Care to elaborate and justify your position.

>>155692976
He still makes stupid decisions, but it's actually justifiable this time since the fact that he's mentally ill is portrayed properly.

>>155692791
yeah.... but nothing actually made ANY sense when he stood up to archer.

I mean, yeah, he will kill archer and save himself, but her is still in the same paradox in the future, so what's the point?

>>155693125
>but it's actually justifiable this time since the fact that he's mentally ill is portrayed properly.
are you serious about that, or just being sardonic?

>>155691848
>People hate Shirou because he gets all the lasses.
>>155691848
that's not hard in anime, you jsut need to be the main character.

>>155693212
If you couldn't tell from the anime that Shirou is mentally ill, I think you have some problems of your own.

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>>155693150
>but her is still in the same paradox in the future
He's not though, that's the point. Archer comes from a different route than Shirou, Archer didn't live through UBW, he went through an alternate Fate Route. Shirou KNOWS the flaws of his ideals now, accepts that it's not perfect, and decides to fight for it anyway. He has Rin to make sure he doesn't go full Hero-mode this time, and he ended the war without any regrets and able to make peace with his past.
tl;dr While he probably will still die horribly, because magus, he won't be betrayed by his ideal and become Archer.

>>155691615
Really not that hard to understand.

>You are correct that killing this innocent person will stop something terrible from happening. But that does not mean it is the right thing to do.

>>155692976
It's poorly written, harem shit, with an awful translation

>>155693420
>If you couldn't tell from the anime that Shirou is mentally ill, I think you have some problems of your own.

yesm its called aspergers syndrome, however, as the anime makes no reference as to whom a NORMAL non-protagonist male character is, there is not really a metric to gauge whether he was being the typical aloof anime protaganist or was actually had problems beyond his own stupidity.

>>155692998
>all the secondaries

names? your paranoia?

>>155693540
I think you're mixing up the events of UBW and HF.

>>155693212
Have you read the VN? The fire wasn't supposed to be your typical "muh tragic backstory", it wiped out Shirou's identity after he mentally killed himself to die easier. Kiritsugu looking so happy in saving him imprinted the concept that saving others was the only way to be happy. Not to mention the mass survivor's guilt he got after ignoring everyone around him screaming and burning to death, only to end up as the only survivor, thus having a complete lack of self-worth. The reason why VN readers don't hate him as much is because we understand he psychologically can't make other rational decisions.

>>155693431
so as long as he take his ideal less seriously, or setting it aside the meme that turns him to archer won't occur?

was archer simply created through the ideal and the disapointment in the ideal?
and if so, how does Shirou know this will be prevented? again, Archer has all the time in the world to live this shitty ideal and suffer the same fate, so unless he abandons the ideal, won't he just become archer in another way since you exist forever in the blade works if you become this spirit/meme?

>>155693212
Shirou is the better written character, but his point of view actually is what makes FSN less immersive. You're all the more aware that he's his own person and not just some guy you're supposed to relate to in the story.

The atmosphere and immersion in Tsukhime has less to do with Shiki as a character than as a vehicle for the player. Even when he's having his insane breakdowns and questioning his own perspective and identity, it still feels like the reader is viewing the world through his eyes rather than just an outsider looking at his life choices and thoughts.

Tsuki's plot is basically Shiki coming to terms with who exactly he is, I think him being more of a vehicle that gets defined in each route kind of works for him.

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>>155688230

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>>155692711
>but since ranma was fucking awesome

>>155692711
Did you have Ranma fanfics on your geocities site, old man?

>>155694191
>when you finally get to this scene in the vn

hard to describe the feeling

>>155693636
>Have you read the VN?
lets just assume, the bell curve of the population hasn't.

>> Kiritsugu looking so happy in saving him imprinted the concept that saving others was the only way to be happy. Not to mention the mass survivor's guilt he got after ignoring everyone around him screaming and burning to death, only to end up as the only survivor, thus having a complete lack of self-worth

okay, so the anime covers that, but jsut not very well, as I said before the only metric for normalcy in this world is conversations with other people, majority of which a sociopaths, so you can't tell with HE is fucked up, or if everyone else is, or if they are all normal by measuring eachother on their own values.

also at most I would mark Shirou's conduction more as a sort of shell shock or mental scaring rather than mentally ill, as most people are BORN with that, rather than acquiring it. but that is semantics.

again, this all protray's Shirou still as having jsut weird veiws, and shell shock, but I wouldn't call him mentally ill, he certainly showed no mechanical, social or behavioral ticks, that would suggest as such, aside from a dumb philosophy, which could also just be written off as childish fantasy, which is what I assumed, becasue it fit the bill, and no one else proved otherwise.

>>155692960
In this case, and several others, YES YOU DO.

The VN is from a first person perspective. You don't get that in anime. It's lost in translation and that really effects the flow story and character development when you're missing a major piece of the puzzle.

>>155693932
ah, so there is an entire unreliable narrator angle you need to experience from the VN perspective, okay, that makes things different.

>>155693212
His future self has so much self-hate he tries to kill his past self to erase his own existence.

>>155694279
what's geocities?

>>155693636
>The reason why VN readers don't hate him as much is because we understand he psychologically can't make other rational decisions.
I am a VN reader. I hate him *because* he cannot make other, rational decisions.

Are we to accept the works of a psychotic killer because said killer, psychologically, can only make murderous decisions? Are we to pity them? No; for, their defects are the cause of tragedy. People such as Shirou and the killer are the direct objects of their defects. And humans are not to feel anything towards defects themselves other than hatred and repulsion. To that end, it is only right to hate Shirou. He is a defective being who masquerades as a normal human in order to fulfil his own, selfish desires.

>>155694429
>His future self has so much self-hate he tries to kill his past self to erase his own existence.
well yeah... the memes of his dumb ideals committed him and eternity of death and futility, and even if he was on board with it to begin with, he has the infinity on time working against him, he will believe in it till he won't. so basically Archer wanting to kill him is the natural entropy of his situation. AND when prompted he wouldn't drop this dumb ideals and continued to damn Archer to that paradox.

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Only manchildren likes Shitrou. It's no surprise that retards like a retard.

>>155693431
>He has Rin to make sure he doesn't go full Hero-mode this time,
whom he has a track record of not listening to along with everyone else.

>>this time,
what was the defining moment exactly?

>>and he ended the war without any regrets
>>this time

so... did he win the goddamn grail war or even know about it when he created archer? doesn't archer coming back fuck up all the courses of fate to begin with, or was he fated to the grail war to begin with?

>> Shirou KNOWS the flaws of his ideals now, accepts that it's not perfect, and decides to fight for it anyway

so he is still going to carry the ideals that doom him into becoming archer, by with negate it by being more chill about it?

>>155694390
I thought UBW was the good adaption that surpassed the VN?

>>155694771
I find that amusing because Shiki barely changes through the routes. Hell most of them just have him hook up with a girl and that's that, after some life and death struggles

>>155690029
Let's nust go through them all now then

>>155687750
Shirou was actually one of my favourite characters, along with Lancer. I liked him more than Archer, too.

Why? Because he knew what he wanted to do and was willing to take any risk necessary for it.

I actually hated him in HF's true ending because he threw all of that away for the sake of a canon slut who was literally committing mass murders, daily. The ultimate in protagonist-centered morality. Bullshit.

>>155694523
>Are we to accept the works of a psychotic killer because said killer, psychologically, can only make murderous decisions? Are we to pity them?
Accept, no. Pity, maybe, depending on whether they regret it.

One could even argue that they are pitiable if they do not show remorse, but are caught and punished---because, their moral failings aside, they were still unable to make a decision which wouldn't get them punished. They were defective from the start and ended up suffering because of it.

Certainly, they caused tragedy as well, but that's no more their fault than it was their choice to be defective from the start.

Of course, none of this implies they shouldn't be stopped.

>>155694327
The fire burned off any sense of self he had.

The boy Shirou was before the fire literally doesn't exist anymore, he's basically a new person that can remember everything.

>>155695729
>canon slut
>literally the only heroine who never falls for anyone but Shirou

>literally committing mass murders, daily
>actually only kills the villains of the route in self-defense near the end
Stop pretending you've read anything about HF other than shitposts on /a/.

>>155696304
You don't have to fall for anyone to be a slut. It's actually sluttier if you sleep with people without loving them.

Which Sakura has done, canonically, a lot.

And no, all of the people gobbled by Angry Manjew are Sakura's responsibility, many of them she was even there for, and fuck you for pretending otherwise and defending the worst girl.

>>155696932
>implying being a rape victim makes you a slut
/pol/ pls
>all of the people gobbled by Angry Manjew are Sakura's responsibility
Considering she didn't even know her nightmares were real until Gilgamesh appeared and skewered the shadow, nope. As soon as she understood what was going on, she stopped sleeping and went to confront Zouken in order to put an end to everything, even if it would cost her her life.

It's obvious you haven't actually read HF.

>>155697156
It's pretty well-established that being sexually abused as a child can lead to early puberty, later being basically a nympho, going into sex work, etc. Being raped and being a slut do actually sort of go hand in hand. In real life.

But be an SJW about it or whatever.

Also how the fuck does "I'm just going to convince myself this is all a bad dream and do nothing at all to make sure of that" justify literal mass murder? Only in the mind of a slut lover.

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>>155694461
>not knowing the glory of 90s internet

>>155697284
>Being raped and being a slut do actually sort of go hand in hand. In real life.
Nice pseudo-science there, too bad we're talking about 2D here. Sakura's devotion to Shirou is purer than anyone else's, and that's the only thing that matters.
>But be an SJW about it or whatever.
Yup, confirmed for /pol/. Only you would call rape victims sluts and cry when called out on your retardedness.
>how the fuck does "I'm just going to convince myself this is all a bad dream and do nothing at all to make sure of that" justify literal mass murder
The fact that it's not her but Angra Mainyu doing it is what justifies it. The grail using her as a meatshield doesn't mean she's at fault for its actions. Do you think Shirou should have killed Ilya in Fate because Kotomine threw her grail mud at him? Because that's what blaming Sakura for the shadow is like.

>It seems there was a big accident in the neighboring town of Shinto.
>It happened in a building in the business district. It seems a whole floor of people ran out of oxygen and fell unconscious.
>They've called it a gas leak, but this kind of accident is happening often recently.

Oh for fuck's sake. Really, Nasu? ...really?

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>>155699178
>Caster's deadly gas leak accidents
Pfft.

>>155687750
yes.

>>155697627
The difference is that Sakura was Avenger's Master and Illya is just a helpless vessel.

Sakura could have done something about it, and once she demonstrated she could take out Zouken so easily, there was no justification for her NOT doing anything about it. She just chose not to until after she'd already stood around and watched atrocities with scarcely a care in the world.

And later went full edge and acted like they were inconsequential.

The chance that you're only defending her because you like her tits and housewife attitude is astronomical.

>People say that the eyes of the Association are everywhere. On top of that, if you commit a crime with magic, the heretic hunters of the church will come after you.
>I think alarm clocks are degenerate, so I haven't used one since I was a kid.
>"Oh, this is the smell of Shirou's omelet. I see, you're making breakfast this morning."

When does this game get good? Surprised at all this important stuff they cut from the adaptions

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>>155699382
>The difference is that Sakura was Avenger's Master and Illya is just a helpless vessel.
Sakura had no idea about what Avenger was until Ilya informed her about it late into the route, and even then, since Sakura is its vessel, restraining it means keeping it close to her and having her mind corrupted by it.
>Sakura could have done something about it, and once she demonstrated she could take out Zouken so easily, there was no justification for her NOT doing anything about it.
The shadow murders stop immediately after the night that she learns they're real, which is before she even becomes Dark Sakura and takes out Zouken. She clearly did do something about it (stop sleeping, because it takes over when she's unconscious) as soon as she could.
>And later went full edge and acted like they were inconsequential.
The very reason she becomes Dark Sakura in the first place is because she wants to restrain the shadow and keep it from rampaging on its own any more, even if it means putting an even greater burden on her.

All of this is stated in the VN. Try paying attention to what it says some time.

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>>155699382
>The difference is that Sakura was Avenger's Master
Really? This line of reasoning is explicitly shut down in the VN.

>>155699725
Gilgamesh bathed in the Grail with no problems. Illya is literally a vessel for that shit and turns out fine. Kiritsugu lives for years with Grail curse, and Shirou outright kicks its ass.

If Sakura (and, for the matter, Saber) can't deal with it, that's because they're shit girls and should never be anyone's waifu.

>>155689479
>its the people that watched the anime only and didnt read the VN that really hate shirou
Huh? It's the VN version that is insufferable. In anime he at least doesn't narrate everything like a retard.

>>155700003
>In anime he at least doesn't narrate everything like a retard.
VNs might not be for you in general if that bothers you.

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>>155700003

>>155699831
>Gilgamesh bathed in the Grail with no problems
Plot armor, not to mention it's likely to be bravado, considering an argument can be made for him being more evil in F/SN than F/Z.
>Illya is literally a vessel for that shit and turns out fine
Due to being a homunculus specially constructed from scratch to handle it, at the cost of her human functions. Sakura was sloppily converted into an grail by Zouken on a whim after the fourth war, so she doesn't function nearly as well as a grail.
>Kiritsugu lives for years with Grail curse
But it does kill him, and leaves him magically crippled until then.
>Shirou outright kicks its ass.
Because of Avalon.

>>155695729
>I actually hated him in HF's true ending
Originally there was only going to be the (far superior and thematically consistent) Normal End, but Nasu wanted Sakura to have a happy ending so we have the asspull homunculus harem end bullshit.

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>>155700133

>>155700188
Makes sense, he also retconned the Akiha route ending in Kagetsu Tohya.

>>155700168
>Gil
More evil in F/sn than in F/z? He's literally the reason F/z, and therefore F/sn, even HAPPENS, and he did it all deliberately.

>Avalon
Which he can do because magic. Sakura is also a mage, and a much better one than Shirou, and a Grail, and Angra Mainyu's Master. If she can't manage to do more than stall and turn edgy and murderous, that's her problem.

BTW, what kind of plot armor gets you killed off in a throwaway scene in the most important of the three routes? That's some pretty shit armor.

>>155700200
>The night itself feels frozen by the winter cold.
>My breath hangs white in the air.
>The garden is cold, but at the same time, the sky was beautiful.
>The expression "freezing cold" seems to have been made up just for this winter night.
>The cold stars. The deep darkness.
>Illuminating this world is the lifeless moonlight.

His internal monologue is pretty poetic for a child

>>155700188
>asspull
Ilya being able to transfer souls into other vessels was literally foreshadowed since Fate. You know, the whole turning Shirou into her doll thing?

>>155700350
Are you implying that one-off unexplained scene wasn't added in at the last moment in a clumsy attempt to justify the deus ex machina happy ending?

>>155700418
>one-off unexplained scene
The bad end where you agree to become Ilya's servant has a long infodump with her maids putting the Heaven's Feel dress on her and talking about how her powers work before she turns you into a doll. The very first bad end has her doing something similar by trapping your consciousness inside your decapacitated head, too.

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Shirou is so cute.

>>155700487
I don't count "I have this power because I do and I'm using it because I need to pretend I'm foreshadowing a thing that happens much later and is a shining example of why the last route of the game is poorly written and should have been cut" as genuine explanation.

Sticking a reference to your asspull in at an earlier point where it doesn't belong is one of the laziest tricks in the bad writing book.

nop

>>155700305
>More evil in F/sn than in F/z?
Considering what his goal in UBW is, yes.
>Which he can do because magic.
No, it's because he had a connection to Saber and had been harboring the actual NP inside his body for so long he could project his own copy. Very much something only Shirou could do.
>and a Grail
That's exactly what makes things harder for her, though, since a vessel that's born human can't contain the grail as well as an object or homunculus. She can't help that Zouken conducted experiments on her that turned her into a leaky grail.

>>155687750
>harem shit
>ever not deserving of hate

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>>155691895
>not whiteknighting your servant
what are you? a fag?

>>155700564
>foreshadowing doesn't count if it proves me wrong!
Looks like you should have read the VN instead of parroting what you've heard others say. Foreshadowing is foreshadowing.

>>155700620
So basically you're saying that Nasu wrote plot armor in to let any other character hax past Angra; so if he had wanted her to be something more than a bad, overly edgy Kohaku knockoff, he could have made her so; but instead it was determined to write her as just a slut and a damsel in distress with an obscenely huge appetite for semen, huge disgusting fat sacks, and plenty of red'n'black and blood.

So, in other words, shit girl, worst route.

Got it.

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>>155700757
>blaming the characters and writing for you being too retarded to understand basic facts about how the grail works
My sides. If you had paid attention, you would also know that Sakura was able to hold out for incredibly long considering her situation, and that she's actually the most effective heroine when it comes to defeating villains.

>>155700896
>she's basically the most effective heroine when it comes to defeating villains
Except that she is one. While somehow also being a perfect precious innocent angel.

Look, you can stick in infodumps of lore to handwave it all, but if it's unrealistic, contrived, clashes with the tone of the work--all things which Heaven's Feel does, and almost entirely because of Sakura--it's still bad writing.

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Shirou is best boy and a miracle .

>>155700680
That's not foreshadowing. There was no indication that Shirou would live through abusing his powers; in fact the entirety of HF points towards an unhappy ending. Face it wormposter, Nasu let his own feelings towards Sakura get in the way of the direction the story was taking.

>>155700946
>Except that she is one. While somehow also being a perfect precious innocent angel.
Wow, it's almost as if she has actual depth to her character unlike Saber and Rin.
>Look, you can stick in infodumps of lore to handwave it all, but if it's unrealistic, contrived, clashes with the tone of the work--all things which Heaven's Feel does, and almost entirely because of Sakura--it's still bad writing.
It isn't contrived, though. The nature of the grail was clearly established in the previous routes (It being pure liquified evil? Fate. It being able to take over people in order to materialize? UBW.), and HF simply explores that nature even further. In the same way, Ilya's powers are explored in both Fate and early HF, so her putting them to use in a time of need at the end is nothing strange.

What was contrived was how dire the situation was portrayed as being, and that has its explanation in Shirou and Rin getting their information from villains who were trying to manipulate them. It's funny how you want things to go according to "tone", since it speaks volumes of how easily you are led astray by red herrings while ignoring the stated facts.

>>155701079
Shirou overusing Archer's arm was strongly foreshadowed to result in his death, yes, but he had a set number of projections he could handle. Him going over it results in the normal end, but the support and sacrifice of Ilya results in him not having to go beyond it, and since it was his body that was faulty, all they needed to do was transfer his soul to a new and better one. That part's foreshadowed both by Ilya's abilities and even Zouken himself (not to mention not being a foreign concept within the Nasuverse if you're familiar with Touko in KnK).

Really, it's clear as day that you simply failed to understand the story, and are trying to blame it instead of yourself.

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>>155701079
>in fact the entirety of HF points towards an unhappy ending
Making it all the more poignant and rewarding for them to get a happy ending in the end. If anything, if Ilya hadn't saved the day despite being on Shirou's side and established to have all the power to do so, it would have been a completely forced downer ending, and Ilya would have been completely superfluous to the plot. An observant reader would notice beforehand that Ilya is the key to a happy ending.

>>155700946

It was foreshadowed though, since the Fate route in fact in that one bad end where Ilya and Sella explain how Ilya is gonna put Shirou's soul in a doll with the Apport(look that term up). And HF is the route with the most explanations for things. Ilya even gives an entire explanation for the difference between how regular mages try to attain immortality and the 3rd, along with how you move the consciousness of a magus to a familiar or other vessel.

HF True is also the ending that has the most lore dump. Even when Nasu says he "lost against the story" he never really regrets it, because he has had plenty of time to rewrite that and doesn't, and it's not like he got rid of HF Normal, its still there, a testament to what would happen if Shirou abandoned wanting to live, didn't get on well with Ilya, and wasn't smart enough to save his projections until the very end.

>>155701349
I don't see much point in arguing with you if you don't understand what foreshadowing is. You're only thinking about the lore, whereas both myself and the other poster you're replying to are talking about the the story and the themes. You are the one with the shallow understanding, friend.

>>155694191
Is this in the stay night vn or hollow ataraxia

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>>155700305
>More evil in F/sn than in F/z?

You tell me, anon

>>155701801
Fate/stay night after seeing all of the Tiger Dojo's

>>155701858
Thanks. I just started the ubw route, havent had time to read lately. Good thing ive been collecting stamps/bad endings.

>>155701880
Favorite parts so far?

>>155701781
>get the fact that the ending demonstrably isn't an asspull pointed out to you
>y-you don't understand foreshadowing!
If we're talking themes, it actually gets even easier to explain. Sakura not being able to smile when Shirou's not there, Ilya's responsibilities to Shirou as a big sister, and Shirou being disillusioned about Kiritsugu and breaking free from the ideal that made him live like a machine are all themes that lead to HF True as a natural conclusion. You can argue that HF Normal is a necessary conclusion to depict as well, but not having HF True at all would just render the theme of Shirou and Sakura saving eachother moot and come off as being in poor taste.

>>155701909
All of it really. I love how much more detailed it is than the show, even if things are slightly changed. Plus the h scenes arent as bad as i was told they were. I have a job where i can game/watch when not busy. I havent been with this tho because of the h scenes. Really looking forward to seeing the eventual rin tohsaka h scene.

>>155701986
I liked the Saber and Berserker (UBW) and Lancer and Archer fight better than what was in the anime.

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>>155702075
I havent gotten to that in ubw yet. Basically right after recalling saber from killing rin. If i had to pick one scene i liked the most, so far its the second h scene with saber, right before the final battle. But im a saberfag, so i think im kinda biased there.

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>>155702116
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkgjc9HdTZ0

>>155702179
Sorry anon, but i cant get that video to load for some reason.

>>155694327
Emiya Shirou is literally born the moment Kiritsugu saved his life by implementing Avalon into him. The Nasuverse concept of Origin is important here. If you die, your soul is returned to the roots and recycled into another body, but the Origin remain consistent. Shirou's origin literally got nuked, then overwritten by Avalon to Sword. Hundreds of thousands of years of history imprinted in that soul gone kaput without a trace, replaced with a blank.

>>155693871
Archer went through an alternative version of Fate route where neither he nor Saber managed to come to term with their ideal (in the scene under the church), and thus he was unable to "save her heart". That scene is the emotional climax of Fate route, where Shirou had to face his past (orphan corpse batteries), and accepted it instead of seeking the grail, which Kotomine was giving out for free. To move on, he will not look back and regret the decisions he has made, because it will taint the memories of the people who gave up their lives so he can live.

Archer did not reach this resolution, therefore he accepted Alaya's offer for power, and eventually regret his afterlife of being a janitor. All 3 Emiya Shirou(s) of the three primary routes came to a conclusion and accepted their ideals (in different ways), while Archer lived with the fake all his life

>>155693871
Archer will continue to exist, because at least 1 Emiya Shirou is doomed to accept Alaya's offer, therefore Emiya Shirou's soul will remain in the throne of heroes after his death, no matter what kind of life he led.

>>155701949

You should probably mention a couple other things if you want to get the point across.

Certainly, it's not that Sakura can't live without Shirou or that Shirou "fixed" everything and vice versa. The point was that for both of them, it would be a rocky road to normalcy, see Ilya saying she'll leave Shirou to Rin and Sakura in that hot spring Tiger Dojo omake. Meaning Ilya considers Sakura able to help Shirou's abnormality.

Even in HF True, Sakura struggles with herself and her shame about her past and what happened in the route, but wants to find her own goals and ambitions. That is something she also tries in HF Normal(something that goes over the heads of quite a few, she taught herself magic and tried to get back into society again, even if it took years, which is pretty admirable that she attempted self therapy considering her past), but is altogether traumatized by the gravity of the situation, and unfortunately, Rin just isn't the best motivator for a person like that.

HF True was hopeful, but showed the couple had more work to do to ensure a stable life together.

>>155695297
What created Archer is not the ideal itself, but rather being the twat he was at the start of the story, taking on someone else's ideal because he see that is the only way for him to feel happiness. In all 3 routes Emiya Shirou reached a resolution regarding his ideal, and will not take up the offer given to be a counter guardian.

In Fate, he resolved to not look back, and accept the fact that he had to walk over other people's corpses, disregarding their lives to save his. Even without knowing it was tainted, he rejected Kotomine's offer for the grail. Fate True is the end with the highest chance of leading Shirou toward Archer, but its still significantly lower than Archer's own route.

In UBW, he accepted that his ideal is imperfect, and strive to help as many people as he can. He can't save everyone, but he will try to save as many as possible, and he'll be happy with what he achieved at the end of the day. The chance of him becoming Archer is still not 0, because there's still a very slight chance of him taking up Alaya's offer purely because he consider that something he can still do.

In HF, he accepted that the ideal is just an ideal, and that Sakura is more important to him than the rest of the world. He's going to spend his life in Fuyuki with his loved one, content to just help the people around him like he's been doing in the past. He still want to help people, but the range is limited, because Sakura is his anchor.

>>155694602
Archer is boned regardless. The throne of heroes exist outside space and time. Emiya Shirou is doomed from birth to become a counter guardian, in the infinite multiverse there's at least one Emiya Shirou (Archer route) who stupidly accepted the offer. He's just trying to vent his frustration about his younger self onto Shirou, he know its pointless. Even the anime made this super clear

>Infinite universes.
>100% chance that at least one Shirou will become memehero/Archer.
>Doom's afterlife for all Shirous.

This kind of shit is why I'm an atheist *tips fedora* I really hope there is nothing when this ends.

>>155700757
>overly edgy Kohaku knockoff

Kohaku and Sakura are totally different, the only thing is that some themes are similiar, regarding the darker side of supernatural societies and abusive households.

After that though, it stops. Sakura accepted her life was crap from the jump, and all of her that you see is her, it's not a persona, like with Kohaku. The melancholic, stoic girl who everyone but Shirou and Taiga see is her true self, the gentle, genki kouhai that those two see is her true self, and the fatalist, bitter girl is her true self. One of the interesting reasons why Rider loves Sakura is that they both have the same sordid past, but Sakura wanted to try to push herself forward with a smile. They go over that in Hollow.

Kohaku hung too much on the trope of a "doll", that we hardly got to see the real her. Why do you think we hardly see anything but the Melty Blood persona she has? Because Nasu decided went too hard for the "twin" element, to have what was essentially two Hisuis (since narrative wise he made Hisui's supposed personality Kohaku's "real" personality and Kohaku's mask was the "real" Hisui, which is actually bad for them both as characters, even if it makes for an interesting mystery element, it makes it harder to see them for who they really are).

I love Kohaku, but she is woefully undermined by memes and tropes. To the point where all we ever see is meme Kohaku from MB(Ciel is another favorite of mine that gets memed on a lot, and it's a shame). Whereas we see all parts of Sakura, even in joke scenarios.

>>155687750
I admittedly fucking hated him month first time through Fate (DEEN anime)
Once I watched a bit of UBW and read the VN he began to grow on me more as a character and as less of a self - insert

>>155695922
>The fire burned off any sense of self he had.
possibly a bit too meta of a concept when simply survivor guilt made more sense.

>>The boy Shirou was before the fire literally doesn't exist anymore, he's basically a new person that can remember everything.

which the audience is unable to appreciate because we have no concept of what her was before the fire, so we have no sense of contrast.

>>155697491
I guess I am not that old of man then.

>>155703891
>infinite universes
>100% chance that at least one has a (you) in it who is atheist
>Dooms afterlife for all (you)s
Remember, he is a vengeful God

>>155703020
and we have no sense of contrasts regarding this because we never new his old identity, so aside from monologue we have no concept that anything has changed and merely taking an unreliable narrator at his word.

>>155703319
and there is no limit to time, so how the hell can ANYTHING shirou does save or destroy Archer or prrevent him from surcoming to the entropy of his ideals? is archer just screwed period, even if he kills emiya?

>>155693636
I got all of that from watching the anime though.

I don't where some of you are getting this idea that all Shirous will go to where CGs go. Fate Shirou goes to Avalon and the rest presumably die normally which mean going back to the spiral of origin(akasha) in nasuverse.

>>155703681
>In UBW, he accepted that his ideal is imperfect, and strive to help as many people as he can. He can't save everyone, but he will try to save as many as possible, and he'll be happy with what he achieved at the end of the day

but he can't promise that, if time is eternal, Archer lived the ideal until he no longer couldn't in a dimension of infinite time where entropy inevitably won. so how the hell would he be able to promise to himself not to regret when he has no concept fo the time and redundancy archer had been through?

>>155703681
>Archer is boned regardless. The throne of heroes exist outside space and time. Emiya Shirou is doomed from birth to become a counter guardian, in the infinite multiverse there's at least one Emiya Shirou (Archer route) who stupidly accepted the offer. He's just trying to vent his frustration about his younger self onto Shirou, he know its pointless. Even the anime made this super clear
so even him trying to kill him is pointless?

>>155697156
Uh no, she went to confront Zouken after Shirou failed to kill her. She realized she was destroying all his determination which was what she most loved on him.

She had already realized she was the shadow just like Shirou had. They simply didn't wanted to face it

>>155707100
We know he had a family and that he was normal beforehand, that's about it.

>>155709857
>he was normal beforehand, that's about it.
actually we didn't, we know nothing of him before the fire.

>>155709962
we know that he had at least a mother and a sister

>>155710818
but that doesn't tell us whom HE was? couldn't he had been a little shit before the fire? maybe a boy genius, maybe generically normal? we are never going to know because we never had any concept of what he was before the fire, so the contrast from pre-fire cannot be known

>>155711594

Well, it's more like Shirou suppresses that self. He says that after Kerry took him in, he would stand outside the place where his house once stood and waved to the mother that wasn't there anymore. He just pushes that guilt and pain down, but that self isn't gone. They go over this in "Your distortion" in UBW. If Shirou had really lost all sense of self, that passion, that drive that pushes him forward wouldn't be there.

It's like the scene on day 12 where he was forcing himself to take a knife to Sakura, he legit doesn't realize he was crying the whole time.