why did losing to Guts mindfuck Griffith so hard?

bc the birdman thought he have guts on his hand, he thought he was on control. too bad for him

>>155356878
the real question is how did he think he was gonna win with that twig

>>155356878
Anyone notice that Guts looks like we do irl? He doesnt look much like an anime character

Getting dunked on by one of your underlings hurts.

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>>155356878
He was his best friend, and he loved him.
It wasn't losing to Guts that fucked Griffith up. It was the fact that Griffith lived his entire life thinking that what he wanted was to become the king, and that his Band of the Hawk were all expendable pawns.
But, over time, he slowly grew to care personally and deeply for them. They became his family, and he loved them.
So, without Guts there, becoming King lost its value. It meant nothing if he didn't have his family there with him.
Griffith was unable to realize that he felt this way, though. Not until it was too late. We learn this in his vision about being married to Casca, where he admits that a peaceful life with the people he loves wouldn't be so bad. But, by that point, it's too late, because he fucked up and was tortured into a mentally and physically broken husk. That's why The Golden Age arc is such a tragedy.
Also, Guts's character arc in The Golden age is very similar to Griffith's. Where Griffith had a defined goal, and failed to realize what really mattered to him until it was too late, Guts felt like he lacked purpose, failing to realize that what he wanted was right there all along, until it was too late.
But, yeah. TL:DR: Griffith didn't want to lose his best friend, but he was too autistic to realize that that's what he was feeling.

>>155358418
This tbqh, dexfags have mental issues.

>>155359046
well said, thanks.

>>155359167
He'd beaten him in the past with it.

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>>155359203
No problem, anon.

>>155358502
Manga > Anime

>>155359207
I recall that being an actual duel I don't remember them directly striking each other head on like pic related.
but I could be wrong even so you could argue that was a younger version of guts and that his blows were weaker at the time.
for griffith to face a man who he already knew was strong and had handled a great sword for years it wasn't a really good idea to go for such straight forward sword play regardless.

>>155356878
because Guts had surpassed him at something.

He was weaker than him before and now he was stronger, this made Grifith realize his dream might not be so firmly in his grasp as he believed and it made him scared.

>>155359046
I can already see the ending; When Guts finished venturing the whole world after many struggles and finally kills him, Griffith last words would be: "See, you really was my perfect friend".

>>155361474
I dont even know how do i feel about a ending like this

>>155361474
Guts cannot win without some fairy power helping him.

>>155361674
This.

A magic upgrade on Dragonslayer would be pretty nice, and the fact that Rickert succeeds Godo on blacksmithing, he probably has some new sick shit for Guts, he will be an adult when the crew left Elfhelm.

>>155361474
AAAH ANO HI NO YUME

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Guts is the only person Griffith ever loved.

>>155356878
I've always liked how the duel was over in one move. any other manga or anime would have drawn it out over many chapters and done a big huge action scene with big action effects.

That's really just the kind of guy he is, y'know.

>>155356878
It is just to build the drama.

>>155360034
Utter bullshit. Griffith didn't care about some retarded power levels; he just wanted Guts and had loved him in his weird dysfunctional way for years. Reread Casca's monologues to Guts about it and the chapters with Griffith in prison.
>Do I need a reason every time I put myself in harm's way for your sake?

>>155359046
>He was his best friend, and he loved him.

Thank God I'm not the only one who kind of got that feeling from their scenes.

Here's the thing though, that actually exposed some pretty complex feelings I didn't know I had.

I'm straight, like I've never been into dudes or attracted to any form of masculinity. I'm about to marry a girl I'm in love with.

But that scene where Guts finds Griffith naked, pouring cold buckets of water over himself in order to sober up. They engage in a water fight provoked by Griffith, I just wanted to see Griffith grab Guts by the scruff of the neck, and pull down his pants revealing a pale, hairless, plump ass. And then I wanted to see Griffith stroking his throbbing rod of Hawk dick, and just go to town on Guts's quivering feminine butthole. I wanted to watch Griffith cum in Guts's ass and dominate him on every level.

I fully wanted to see that.

What does that mean about me?

>>155356878
Because Guts was his bestest friend ever.

The band of the Hawk is made of people who follow Griffith but don't really get him. They are yes-men. Even Casca. And as such they are expendable.

Guts is the only one who can stand close to Griffith, and Griffith actually opens up to Guts. Without Guts, the guy has absolutely no one. He has underlings and enemies, but not friends.

Losing him when he wanted so badly to keep him at his side till the end causes him to completely freak out.

>>155368576
>but not friends.
but that's not true. In the fountain scene with the princess, he says everyone in the band is beneath him (literally not his "equal") because they cling to his dream instead of having their own. That definitely include Guts who always says "just give me the order already instead of asking me." Guts is definitely a yes man. though he is the closest "non-equal" griffith has.

>>155359046
after thinking about it I don't agree with this anymore. I think the freak out is not that griffith lost a friend, is that a "mere stone on the side of the road" to his dream not only stood up to him, but actually fucking wrecked him completely. He never thought this was possible, and I think that's what made him lose it.

My guess is that
>Guts was his true friend
>Griffith felt that Guts was the only person who pursed the same ideal as him side by side, not from the behind like the rest of the crew
>Griffith felt that Guts understood his ideals and liked him as a person

Guts leaving may have made Griffith feel that he was now completely alone and now that the person Griffith relied on in reshaping and reinforcing his own dreams is gone, Griffith truly felt "lost".

>>155367210
You're bi

>>155356878
The manga's gotten boring and soft. From hyper violent gore and revenge to fairy fucks and 'm-muh nakama'.

>>155359046
>>155367210

Yay, I'm on the same boat with other people.

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Bird Person is now Phoenix Person

>>155370360
it's called character development look it up

>>155370611
>boat
T R I G G E R E D

>>155369453
And then we get this shit almost immediately afterwards. That's the point. Griffith says no one can be his equal, or his friend, if they aren't a certain way. Which drives Guts to go off on his own to become worthy to be Griffith's friend. But Griffith's reaction makes it clear Guts, and the others, were already his friends. He just couldn't admit it because of the standards he lived his life by. That disconnect is a major part of why he loses it immediately after that.

I also never really see Rickert's scene with Griffith compared to this Guts one, despite being somewhat similar in theme. Both are about the person leaving Griffith choosing between following their own life and ideals and staying under Griffith. It's Griffith's reaction that seems to change. Griffith had an autistic melt down when Guts did it, but the new Falcon of Light or whatever just goes "I see" and walks away. The present Griffith is the kind of above it all monarch the Griffith in the past wanted to be, but couldn't because of the power of friendship.

>>155359442
considering how well drawn the manga, all its anime are disasters

>>155356878
Other anons put it well, losing to Guts didnt upset Griffith. Losing Guts is what upset him, for several reasons.
Primarily, Griffith had long since believed that Guts was his forever. In his mind, Guts being able to walk away broke the facade of control. If Guts can leave, so can casca, or any other band of the hawk members.
On another point, Guts was the only person Griffith really cared about. He wouldn't have run up to Zodd to save casca, only Guts. So losing the only thing he wanted to keep kind of invalidated his whole dream.
All of this taken in consideration, don't forget that Griffith is literally incapable of seeing this. All he understood at the moment was that he was fucking despondent and nothing was worth anything anymore, so he did what anyone would want to do, get some young puss.

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>>155371865

>>155359046
Now I agree with your points except I'm quite uncertain he considered all of the hawks his close friends and family.
Now the fact that they were indeed sacrifices dispute my claim because the sacrifices has to be something one loves.

The thing I have trouble with is that during the eclipse, Griffith is seen thinking of Guts as "the only one" "the only one who made me forget about my dream". To me this indicates that its really only Guts who mattered to him and in the end, the Hawks were still expandable, but not Guts.

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>>155356878
>because "MUH DREAM"

>>155372931
Man Femto has some serious cameltoe.

>>155367210
That's gay man
There's such thing as platonic man love

>>155356878
Griffith is powersexual.

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>>155373297
well you ain't seen nothing yet

>>155367210
Faggot

>>155372721
Yea I have to agree. I thought this was the most obvious interpretation but reading this thread tells me that is not the case.

>>155362900
>>155359046
>>155368576
>>155371865
All of this.

Griffith loved guts but was too stubborn and autistic to realize it. Guts is the only person who made him forget the dream he was fighting for his whole life.

>>155367210
That is perfectly heterosexual anon. Don't worry about it.

>>155370360
Camaraderie has been a theme in Berserk since Golden Age, and the fantasia arc hasn't been that long anyway if you look at it objectively. The story would be utter shit if it were nonstop violence without any character development.

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>>155370797
To this day I unironically believe Femto's design to be cool as fuck.

>>155375966
It looks like he's over compensating. Like under the armor he's still the cripple. I know the armor is like his first layer of skin, but honestly I'd love it if the outer layer were to break revealing that he's still Griffith that got tortured.

>>155359046
To think Berserk was such a masterpiece, and now it's nothing more than LOTR lite.

>>155356878

He is and was always a sociopath. Everything and everyone in Griffith's world was either an obstacle to be removed or a tool to be used. He never loved anyone but himself. The loss mindfucked him because he finally found someone he couldn't subjugate to his will, and it's kind of hard to continue believing you're going to subjugate the whole world when you fail to subjugate a single man. Furthermore, he had come to rely on Guts as a critical element in the realisation of his dream. Losing his most prized possession, as well as his certainty of his superiority to those around him, in one stroke was too much for his ego to handle.

Griffith said that the only person he would consider his friend is an equal, and yet anyone who rivals him is seen as either a rival or a means to his own ends. His terms for friendship are impossible to meet. And it turned out to be a lie because Guts clearly did become his equal. In fact, Griffith was so physically and mentally broken that Guts had become his superior. According to his own words, Griffith should then have thought of Guts as his friend. But he didn't. It was when Guts had done all that he needed to do to be considered a friend--when Guts was at his highest and Griffith at his lowest--that Griffith was most willing to sacrifice him.

>>155375966
IT objectively is

>>155356878
They should start doing IQ tests before you're allowed to post here.

>>155381607
If only.

>>155381607
>wanting to hear other people's thoughts on a matter is stupid

your post was a bigger offender to board quality than this thread

>>155356878
I say it wasn't one big thing but several little things that happened in such a sort time frame that broke Griffith
> First time everything does not go according to keikaku for him
> The closest thing he had as a friend leaving
> Losing probably the best solider he had in his army for any and all future campaigns.
> Seeing your other soldiers waver between the two of you and not 100% behind you like usual

On top of that iirc the resulting event that fucked everything up was the same night that the duel ended so it could be labeled as nothing but a rash spur of the moment action. Say if there where about a weeks ride away from the castle, Griffith probably would of never done what he did, yes he'd still be royally pissed at guts but you can see in all versions that instead of basking of the afterglow of that nights conquest, you can tell the only thing on Griffiths mind is that he is never going to be king now.

>>155356878
it proved that his plot armor wasn't as impenetrable as he originally believed

>>155375966
honestly needs a Pepe finger to be complete

>>155364008
why does Guts become mexican for 1 frame after getting splashed?

>>155371251
Applies to every manga to anime adaption, really

I can't believe the entire basis of Berserk is all over some gay misunderstanding.

>>155356878
Griffith didn't lose at all prior to then. He's a guy who's so used to having his way & winning everything that he couldn't cope with the smallest failure, let alone losing Guts.

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Sonia, did i ever tell you about guts? I tried to decapitate him when he tryed to leave me and when that failed i summed many demons to kill his friends and made him watch as i raped his girl friend.

he was a good friend

>>155380497
wrong, he genuinely loved guts he even talks about guts is the only person who made Griffith lose sight of his dream. Thats why his whole speech about friend ship didnt make sense

>>155376213
that'd be brilliant

>>155367210
10/10.

>>155372721
>>155374231
He loved Guts the most out of all of them. Griffith still cared about his other friends as more than tools, though he'd never admit it partially because he knows they expect him to be this perfect being that would bring about a better world with his dream. Guts was different he believed in Griffith too, but he also had his own path that he wanted to walk so he became Griffith's closest friend and probably the only he cherishes above the dream. Remember the vision he had of the kid who died? He can expend the other Hawks because they were willing to die for his dream, but he knew that Guts had his own path.

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>>155385158
Sonia, have I ever told you about the time Guts foolishly tried to 1v1 Zodd over there and nearly got himself killed? I risked my life to save him.
Or how about the time, in a moment of weakness, I slept with the princess? I was tortured for a year straight and left crippled. You see, Guts wasn't around to save me because he had abandoned us -- the hawks.

We had fun together.

>>155385241
>guts is the only person who made Griffith lose sight of his dream
That's because Guts was the one person he couldn't subjugate. He lost sight of his dream when he realised that someone was better than him. It has nothing to do with love.

>>155356878
>Guts thought Griffith was strong and would shrug off a loss
>Griffith thought Guts was weak and would never get a win over him

whoa....it's like poetry

>>155387107
thats not true, griffith already subjugated guts at this point it was only after guts heard him talk about dreams that he decided to leave. You need to reread the manga imo

>>155367210
Yer a faggot harry

>>155388352
I have read the manga. Griffith subjugated him in their first duel, and Guts won his freedom in the second. Griffith lost control of Guts after their second fight: he lost his most prized possession.

You're confusing Guts' feelings toward Griffith for Griffith's feelings towards Guts. Guts may have loved Griffith, but Griffith never loved Guts. This should have been abundantly clear to you when Griffith decided to sacrifice him. When pushed to his very limit, and stripped of all his power, we see exactly what kind of person Griffith is/was.

>>155389117
>Guts was his most prized possession
Anon, that's what people call love. Guts had become literally the most important thing to Griffith. He loved Guts. Even more so than his dream, which he held so high.

>>155389300
No nigga that's what people call domestic abuse

>>155389442
Obsession? Yes. Abuse? No.

>>155389532
>how does abuse start

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>all these literal queers, faggots, and hairy unloved yaoi loving fangirls trying to turn berserk gay
Nah. You cum lusting homos can neck yourselves. Griffith was not sexually attracted to Guts. He just realized he was the closest thing to a true friend he ever had. Since Guts was special, like Griffith. Even if Guts didn't know it his passion for fighting and drive was the root of Griffith's own dream.

He saw a kindred spirit in Guts and realized too late Guts would be forced to leave to find his own dream after Griffith was already past that point and nearing his apex.

>>155356878
Because he was a little bitch. That's basically it.

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>>155389569
>protecting and being willing to abandon your dreams for someone
>abuse

>>155389616
>PRIZED POSSESSION

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>>155389588

>>155389588
I wouldn't consider Griffith gay for Guts. Love doesn't have to be just sexual attraction. I'm just saying that if Griffith had the choice between the most perfect girl you could imagine or just Guts, he'd pick the latter.

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STRAIGHT AWAY THE GAY IN THIS THREAD

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>>155389588
Mate, even dense as fuck Guts had some idea about what Griffith was. And don't forget the "I'll be your soldier, your whore, whatever you want" line.

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>My love for you...
is like a truck

>>155389732
He was full of piss and ready to get revenge on Griffith. Griffith's earlier statement made it unclear if he was a fruit. Guts told him in an act of bravado if Griffith beat him he could do anything to him. Since he didn't believe he could lose.

You can go smoke as many cocks as you like but don't project your queer shit into Berserk.

>>155386770
Put your trip back on, Hawk.

>Or how about the time, in a moment of weakness, I slept with the princess? I was tortured for a year straight and left crippled.
And got thousands of followers killed because of that :^)

>>155389760
>inspired by Devilman and shoujo manga
>not gay as hell
Pick one and only one.

Griffith was a textbook sociopath. Everything about him can be understood with that in mind, including his feelings and motivations and his warped idea of "friendship"

Now, sociopaths in real life don't get handed hax powers out of nowhere nor are chosen by fate to be ubermensch a millenium before their own birth, so they rarely walk down the same exact path

>>155359207
Griffith had the high ground though.

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>>155367210
Fag.

>>155389860
this

>>155389885
Not the second time, but Guts was wounded.
Still a foolish move to try and take on Guts after he's grew so much on the battlefield. Even Griffith knew it was risky but did anyway because sociopath

>>155390084
>tfw you groom a nigga into a literal one man army and think it's a good idea to duel him

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>>155390119
In that regards, Griffith is pretty similar to Guts. He gets into a conflict and thinks later.

>>155359696
It should be noted that when Guts and Griffith went up against Zodd, Griffith was the one who actually cut Zodd's arm off with his saber.

>>155390202
How can people say Miura's art improved with time? He only draws more excessive detail that doesn't favour the pages half of the time.

Berserk's art peaked around the last third of Golden Age through the Conviction arc, with my personal favorite period being Eclipse-Lost Children. There was no need to draw "omg so impressive" overdetailed stuff and fake realistic faces when the whole aesthetic worked as a cohesive whole, from the artstyle to the panneling and page layout. That vague Go Nagai influence held it all together. Now he doesn't do that anymore and the manga just lacks that vitality it had at that time.

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>>155391022
I think what Miura lacks nowadays is engaging stuff to draw. Sure, you can draw lots of details and tentacles on this Ganishka abomination, but there's no emotion in it.

Maybe vol 25-35~ Miura could have nailed some parts of the Golden Age better. But at this point he was just drawing Guts and Schierke beating up shitty monsters without emotions. And as you said some pages were overdetailed, maybe he tried to compensate with cool looking spreads but that also impacts the flow and clarity of the pages.

let's not even discuss the digital plague

griffith was fighting for his "right" to own a slave, he was clearly in the wrong here
:^)

>>155391118
this is what happens when your creation runs away from you and your fans won't let you work on anything else, even though you want to stop

the series ended when they got on the boat

everything afterwards is exactly the same as the dbz buu saga and everything that came after that. You can derive guilty pleasure from it but you know deep in your heart that it sucks

>>155391248
I still want to see Griffith being pierced by 400 lbs of steel. But holy shit I hate everyone who joined with Guts.

>>155391271
Berserk & friends

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>>155391118
>I think what Miura lacks nowadays is engaging stuff to draw
I mean he writes his story

I'm not one of those manime dudes who are all like "BERSERK SHOULD GO BACK TO GRIMDARK AND RAPE AND KILL EVERYONE WITH RAGE" but perhaps, that kind of story and that stage of Guts' character was the stuff that Miura really had inside him to depict. So it comes out looking like the best stuff in the manga -as manga- and like it was done with the most passion and care.

The more abstract pages that were based on emotion rather than objective reality are basically the backbone of Berserk, what's most iconic about it. And a lot of these have to do with Guts being consumed by rage, but there's also pages like this which are absolutely brilliant both conceptually, in composition and in how they purposefully play with previously established motifs and concepts. Although this particular page is right at the end of what I consider to be Berserk's strongest run in terms of art, and the start of the 'impressive but plain' phase.

>>155373544
When you are so bad ass you were killing everyone with just your beard.

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>>155391386
also have this

obvious devilman nod is obvious

>>155389588
Love doesn't always have to be in a romantic way. He could've loved guts like a brother, Best friend, comrade, ect. Point is he cares deeply for guts.

>>155386758
Now that's where I believe you're making your own interpretation. Remember when Casca was saying how Griffith changed after that young boy died? I believe after that moment he stopped caring about the hawks as friends and equals and focused solely on his dream. But it was Guts who was one of ten thousands that made him forget this mentality he created for himself.