Is Flip Flappers a flawed masterpiece?

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Episode 1-8 was a masterpiece, than it just nosedived in pretty much every department. By the end it was completely generic, forgettable, mediocre anime.

It's a mediocre anime that got memed by hipsters.

>>155333660
I didn't experience any flaws.

>>155333753
9*

Yayaka in the memory dome was a highlight of the series.

>>155333660
I loved it and I'm not a hipster

It was boring.

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>>155333753
>implying implications
You are adopting the same shitposting tactics... as the actual shitposters back then.

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>>155333753
>implying episode 9 wasn't the best
COCONA!

>>155333660
no its a perfect masterpiece

>>155333660
No, but that song is.

>>155333660
It is flawed. The last 1/3 was hard to watch as a casual viewer. I was able to appreciate it on an abstract level but I couldn't justify the flaws in its drama writing.
The writer change meme is entirely irrelevant though because the root cause of the flaws were differences in the creative approaches between the director and the writer. It was meant to be like the way it turned out and if there were flaws it's the problem with the plot outline.
The vision of the director is on high-art abstract experimental ideas but the vision of the writer is on character building with wishful thinking dramatization.
It was difficult because the theme of the director is so abstract and there was no way to express it through the writer without getting corny.
These are my high level evaluations. I can get into detail if any disagrees.

>>155333660
It went to shit after whats her face left the writing team. She helped make the best episodes.
I believe it was after episode 5

>>155334420
>Wahhhhh so many people notice the same thing and you can't do that, waaahhhhh.

>>155334829
>It was meant to be like the way it turned out and if there were flaws it's the problem with the plot outline
A lot of people agreed that it was just simple execution missing from the last episode. There were a lot of great thing happening, like Yayakas henshin, Salt shooting his other half, his whole backstory in general, Nyu finally shooting the gun, Mimi henshin, CocoMimi. It's just some lines and awkward pacing that didn't ruin it, but made it worse than it could potentially have been.

>>155334921
Echo from the past. Still deluding yourself with the meme?

Yuniko's leave was planned. She's like this with most of series where she is series composer. I think she said this is because she doesn't have the stamina to do all scriptwriting so after making the plot outline and a few episodes' scripts she'll leave for a different project. As she did with Bang Dream where she handed it off to other writers and left for Alice to Zouroku.

The director said her plot outline was mostly unchanged and all plot was planned from the start. The only possible difference would be minor detail.

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>>155333660

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>>155335095
Alright, after rereading what I just posted I must conclude that I'm a bit drunk. So I hope you can decipher what I meant.

As someone who wasn't in these threads during the show's airing I didn't see any problem with the last third of the show at all and am constantly confused by anons complaining about it.

On one hand I wish I could have experienced the show with /a/ but on the other I wonder if that would have soured the experience slightly for me.

>>155335095
The biggest flaw is in Mimi's characterization. I don't think Yuniko understood Mimi's role as much as Oshiyama would hope for. Mimi is an abstract idea, an archetype, meant to represent something fundamental in Cocona's psyche. Now the characterization turned her into a comedic villian. Compare how Asuka's mother was depicted and then see how Mimi was being dramatized.
Also, pacing is part of Yuniko's job when she made the plot outline. The single biggest pacing flaw was at the end of ep 12 when Cocona had her awakening out of the blue and the context of the awakening (Papika in dicktree jail) was not explained until one week later thus the value of the awakening was undermined to great extent by failure to establish the context.
I think Oshiyama asked for drama as it could potentially work well with his ideas but Yuniko is not known to be able to write good drama. Her drama writing in Shoujo-tachi wa Kouya wo Mezasu was not good.

>>155333753
>by the end
it was that from episode 1 you just memed yourself into believing this was good

>>155335278
Shitposters looked for anything to make them shitpost and the last third wasn't as perfect as the first few episodes. So they spammed the threads after any new episode getting released for whatever reason.

It has good animation, but the entire thing is largely superficial. There is a good reason why shows like this bomb while Kemono Friends did very well.

>>155335278
The first 2/3 of the show was experimental high-art comparable or even superior to the episodic part in Kaiba. The experimental style didn't mesh well with the dramatization, as was the case too for Kaiba.

>>155334243
This isn't wrong

I was watching it as it aired and the writer swapped completely killed all momentum for me.
It was such a jarring change that it left a bad taste in my mouth and I only got to episode 10 before dropping it.

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>>155335385
I can agree with that. Yayaka was episodes 12 saving grace, even episode 11 was better just for this scene and everything it comprises.

The show+the speculation threads while it was airing made me realize I had depression

>>155335441
Kemono Friends is laced with pseudo-deep lore that is within the reach of casual viewers after rudimentary theorization. It had the right level of deep that allow casuals to enjoy the same gratification of a deepfag without actual intellectual investment.

FF is still deeper than I thought. I only discovered sources recently showing that the etymology of "Pure Illusion" is rooted in Biosemiotics and Taoist philosophy with a psychoanalytic flavor and the etymology was well visualized on screen but nobody had realized the connection yet. And this is all intended by the director as latent dream content.

>>155335526
I'd agree with you when it comes to Kaiba but I felt the drama worked well in flip flappers. I felt the drama at the end helped the show realize the value of the earlier adventures and concluded in saving the idea of them quite powerfully. I can't think of a better way to end it really.

The animation is still good.

>>155333660
Yes

>>155333753
Agreed. It got worse with each and every week.

What made it bad for me is that some fans around here insisted it was still good and that Mimi's struggle was interesting and all bunch of other shit. Pure delusion. I was glad when it was over.

Papika still a cute, however. But damn what it could have been.

>>155336315
what could it have been?

It was garbage and the only people that still talk about it are the sickly masses of /u/fags and deepfags who have yet or refuse to bandwagon KF.

>>155333753
>than it just nosedived in pretty much every department. By the end it was completely generic, forgettable, mediocre anime.

Nice non-criticisms. Is this a copypasta?

>>155333660
It was shit.

>>155336384
A real masterpiece. Or at least a very enjoyable show that doesn't shit itself in its later half.

>>155336433
Something doesn't suddenly lack all value just because it failed to end a satisfactory way.

>>155335278
It started out as mostly episodic show. Kind of like Utena, in a way that it did have overarching plot that we constantly get hints at, but the episodes themselves can stand for themselves and they have a pretty clear pattern that works. And they were fun too, my favorite is probably the one that tries to reference all Toei shows, like Hokuto no Ken, Dragon Ball, Sailor Moon. The one with mansion full of faceless kids is cool too. There was just ton of fun shit.

Then, in episodes 10-12 we actually learn what the plot is and it just wasn't anything good, original or interesting. And 3 episodes of that to boot, that's 1/4 of a show which could be boiled down to "Cocona, get back in the fucking womb", a soccer mom throwing a fit.

>>155333660
It's certainly flawed but it is by no means a masterpiece.

>>155333660
More like a masterpiece of shit

>883

>>155336433
Yuasa's works were considered masterpiece only after he repressed his own expression. Your masterpiece is as much as a specific type of pandering.

>>155336492
It wasn't just the end, it was the later half.

Actually the sweet ending made it a little more tolerable.

>>155336568
What are you even saying?

I don't know why people call it shit. We have shows with no substance like Konosuba, Non Non Biyori and Maidragon that get all the praise in the world but this much more ambitious work is the garbage?

People who complain about the plot are retarded. The plot was just a mechanism for the three main characters to develop from the very beginning. If Princess Tutu aired today people would call it shit because it handled its plot exactly the same way.

Salt didn't matter beyond Mimi.
Mimi didn't matter beyond being an obstacle for Cocona.
Neither faction nor their goals mattered because none of it focused on the three main characters.
Cocona's school choice didn't matter because it was just a set piece to display her flaws.

I really don't get how people could watch from the beginning and complain about this.

>>155336507
>mansion full of faceless kids
I can see how superficial you are with the show. You probably like it as a fun Adventure Time episode.

The plot started in episode 1 and it had been well interwoven in every episode.

>>155336531
>he thinks sales dictate quality
I bet you think Cowboy Bebop is shit too.

>>155333660
Isn't that an oxymoron?
Also fuck no Flip Flappers was a downward spiral towards shit bottom.

>>155336568
Ping Pong is Yuasa's most repressed work and it is his worst. Mind Game is his most expressive and best. Every great artist works best freed from restraint.

>>155336738
>Ping Pong is Yuasa's most repressed work and it is his worst
That's the difference between "considered masterpiece" and "the best."

>>155336663
Did I not say that there is in fact an overarching plot? I think I did.

My problem is not that there is plot, the problem is that it's not any good and pay off is weak.

>>155336663
>The plot started in episode 1 and it had been well interwoven in every episode.
100% agree

No need to be so harsh though. Flip flappers seems to have a high barrier to entry when it comes to full enjoyment and the way the show was marketed definitely didn't help in that department.

>>155336651
We know they didn't matter.

The show made it seem like they did - dedicating a lot of time for such empty plot devices insead of using it to develop the characters in other ways.

Why did Papika deage?
Why did we need all those flashbacks for Salt and Mimi? No one cares

>>155336651
Once the plot showed itself people had specific expectation on how it should progress. If those expectations are not met people would not understand it well. In terms of the show the theme was vague and abstract and the viewers that are complaining were anchored by the tiny bit of plot onto something superficial and failed to get the message.

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>Cockona

Reminder that Oshiyama is in charge of the demon designs in Devilman.

>>155336922
>Why did Papika deage?

This is my only gripe with the show, but I'm sure there's a reason

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>>155337052
This is what he's been looking at. (He followed @NatureisScary .)

>>155337052
What about that new Yuasa project, any news about it?

>>155336922
>>155337090
>Why did Papika deage?
Papika is a thematic symbol of staying young and pure-hearted. Something Oshiyama lost but still desired.
>Why did we need all those flashbacks for Salt and Mimi?
Maternal and paternal background shapes the development of the child's psyche. That's an psychoanalytic idea integral to the show.

These are the high level ideas that led to the plot.

>>155337145
Devilman is the Yuasa project

Interview with Director Oshiyama
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ip2IsLvWNJJxYNTT5ODivaL2j5xbEoq3EhGhaUe48Gk/edit

>>155337373
How important are the demon designs to the show? What I got from the interviews is that it's probably more important than character design but I'm not sure.

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>>155336922
>why did Papika deage
Because she was unstuck in time and couldn't get out until she matched Cocona's age. She didn't just de-age, she changed from an adult to an old woman to a child and so on until Cocona reached her in her dreams. Did you ignore Cocona saying that?
>why did we need all the flashbacks
To establish what happened to Papika and Cocona to begin with and world build? To show what Cocona was dealing with during her arc's climax?

Nobody can ever substantiate why they didn't like the finale beyond the production issues like the QUALITY or rushed pacing in 12. Then when someone makes a shitpost thread like this people who weren't here for the airing repeat the exact same shitposts to make it sound like everyone hated it. Reminds me of another series that was killed forever on /a/ due to this behavior.

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>>155333660
Flip Flappers is GOAT!

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The last two episodes were rushed and borderline anticlimatic, but everything up until then was great.
The only thing I would change is the ending, and even then I would only want what was done to be executed a bit better.
We didn't really need Nyunyu.

The only wrong-doing of the series was it causing the downfall of my marriage, because I wanted new hotness (my old waifu is from a series that's two decades old now! Old hag!)
>>155337491
>devilman
>'how important are the demon designs'

>>155337739
>'how important are the demon designs'
You tell me. I haven't read the original so I can't say a thing.

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>>155337753
>it's called devilman
>it's about demons
>'how important are the demon designs?'

>>155337798
My question was was it more important than character design? Obviously there are characters in it too and typically character designers are deemed high status. The question was ultimately about Oshiyama's status in the staff.

Although I didn't think the whole Mimi thing was THAT bad I do agree that the show was great until she appeared.

I mean the finale was good, it just wasn't smart or subtle yet trippy, it was just decent.

>883

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>155337988
I mean the only person in this thread pinpointing Mimi was me and my criticism was about the construction of the character. Good or bad wasn't my argument.

>>155333660
It was an 8/10 series with a 5/10 ending.

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>>155337491
>>155337753
>>155337843
I think they're going 2deep4u for the new devilman, which mean the monster designs will be chock full of symbolism.

The individual episodes were great but the overarching plot was terrible. More things like the ghost school please.

>>155333660
The only episodes I truly enjoyed were the ones where they discovered the portal to that artist girls childhood memories, and the one with the clocktower that tried to turn them into mindless drones.

>>155338145
Yuasa is good at surrealist distortion and lolrandom imagery but speaking of heavy-weight symbolism Oshiyama is probably better at it.

>>155336738
>Every great artist works best freed from restraint.
"no"

>>155338509
“you're a faggot”

>>155337988
This is a perfectly adequate summary. It's not that flipflap is a flawed masterpiece so much as an incomplete one. Not in the sense of not having finished the story or missing out important features, just that it lacked the ability to conclude on the terms it set out for itself.

Still a great show on the whole, of course. Honestly, the ending could have been a total trainwreck and it'd still be good. Episodes 5-9 are that strong.

>>155337130
Hey it's one of them deep sea fangly fish.

>>155335526
agree, they're both frustrating and share the same major weaknesses

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>>155333660

It's fucking flawless, you pleb.

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>>155335231

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>>155333660

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>>155336315
>>155333753
Gotta agree with these faggots. I think it started out really well. I had zero expectations for it, but it was really something else. The post credits scene for the first episode alone was enough to make me worry a bit. Since it was a sign of things going to shit and those signs did start to pop up more and more with every episode.

I watched the damn shit in the end, hoping it would get better and get out of the pit of other shitty, generic and boring shows that it fell into. It never did.
An amazing start, very interesting, fun, cute, ADVENTUROUS and wild. That didn't last for long.

>>155333660
yes

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There is barely anything wrong with the ending, you are just here for the shitposting.

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I thought it started pretty shit, then it became god tier amazing, then it become kind of generic at the end.

But fuck it, I'll treasure the god tier parts.

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>>155342553
Will there ever be another FLFL that is started without being for the sole purpose of shitposting?

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>>155336978
>Papiass

>>155333660
>a flawed masterpiece
Have to agree.
The ending and villain in general was dumb.

Peaked too early

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>>155342553
Nah, I expected Papika to be more intellectual after she regained her memory. How come it got worse?

Unpopular opinion, I know, however for me Papika is one the most horribly annoying anime characters I've had the displeasure of putting up with watching.

>>155333660
It's just flawed.

>>155344567
She was able to construct complete sentences, give her a break.

>>155344784
Hardly an unpopular opinion. Papika a shit.

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>>155344567
She was already a genius, look at her reading a very big book.

>>155346624
It's a picture book about beetle lawyers.

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>>155346647
Stop it, Yayaka.