Let's discuss manga as a medium. What are your thoughts/gripes?

>>155108940
Needs to be more gyaru manga.

>>155109164
Alright then.

Manga is a shit medium.

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>if we go full western comic standards, the more people you got in there the better

>>155109624
That's how it works though.
There are like 10 different artists for outlines, inking and coloring.
And a whole crew of writers.

>>155109547
It's just writing + drawing.
But usually gets no good things from either.

>>155109974
Mainstream American comics which are made on a corporate assembly line are usually bland, middle-of-the-road products.

The best American comics usually have as few creators working on them as possible. They're the passionate vision of a single individual or duo, not a series of designed-by-committee compromises.

>>155108940
>Or rather, if we go full western comic standards,
You mean like Asterix, which was made by 2 people? That's totally unlike manga like Golgo13, which has it's basic story written by one guy, the specifics worked out by the nominal writer, and is drawn by a team of 6 or more people.

Not to mention that manga sales are hilariously above and beyond western comic sales. One Piece alone outsells all of Marvel and DC.

>>155110180
A lot of comics in the past few decades were made by rather large team collaborations instead of a mangaka + office of assistants, event if that at all.

>>155108940
Western comics are cancer though

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>>155110365
There are people on /co/ who say that manga is cancer. They are just as wrong as you are.

>>155108940
>Or rather, if we go full western comic standards, the more people you got in there the better, 5 artists, 6 artists, it's all just convenience, with good cooperation and additional staff manga can become so much more than it is right now when people don't try to multi-juggle being a one man army for such a diverse set of skills required.
They already do that, most mangaka have assistants or work in groups like CLAMP.

That said, poor writing often comes about because of the extremely tight deadlines and cliches are easier than genuinely creative storytelling.

That's not even touching on the problems rampant with the Big Two, i.e. pandering, corporate mandates, jerking employees around, copyright issues, "canon," ect.

>The biggest problem with it is that people approach it with too many different viewpoints that do not hit the full potential of it.
This statement sound like there's "one TRUE potential must be done this way" autism. Reign it back man.

>I see it as a mean to tell a story in a more visual fashion but most mangaka don't give 2 shits about improving their writing and focus too heavily on the art first and foremost.
Some of them just want to draw and that's not wrong.
>>155109974
On any given book for the big two it's usually Writer, Penciller, Inker, Letter, Colorist. Sometimes more, but I've heard that penciller and inker are getting lumped together these days.
>>155110408
Concrete and a Contract with God are some good shit, lemme tell you. If your idea of American comics is Marvel and DC, it's forgivable to think American comics are trash, but there's a lot of stuff outside them that's worth reading.

>>155108940
>Or rather, if we go full western comic standards, the more people you got in there the better, 5 artists, 6 artists, it's all just convenience, with good cooperation and additional staff manga can become so much more than it is right now when people don't try to multi-juggle being a one man army for such a diverse set of skills required.
No thanks, I like it to be personal to that one author or team of artist and writer.

If they're no good I'll just give it a miss

>>155110178
This

One of the best things about manga is that if a crazy son of a bitch has a good idea he can do it all on his own and make a manga about it, whether it be self published, a oneshot in a magazine, a web manga or even a regularly published thing. Manga is very diverse and free compared to a lot of other media, and yes I'm aware it pens itself in with cliches and generic kinds of stories and characters; but the manga that don't have vast potential.

>>155110180
>One Piece alone outsells all of Marvel and DC.
To be completely fair, DC and Marvel have been selling horribly recently, mostly due to very "questionnable" editorial decisions.
>tfw every new Astérix or Blake & Mortimer album released always beats even Naruto in terms of sales ; even reissues of Tintin do
>tfw your local comic book industry managed to resist the burgerification and the tidal wave of shounen-invasion

>>155110408
For every one good comic there are 100 making much more money. I've read comics. I know what's good and bad. The western comic industry puts out cancer. I don't know why you would argue this since a cursory glance is enough to realize how bad of a state the western medium is in. Pretending it's not bad is precisely why it's so bad.
The manga industry is much healthier than the comic industry and that ain't changing anytime soon. Also take this shit thread to /co/.

>>155110605
I'm not convinced by the new Asterix team, but at least they're better than the last few issues that came before.

>>155110684
100 shit ones*

>>155110684
>For every one good comic there are 100 making much more money
Just like manga?
Or just about literally everything else?

>>155110684
What is Sturgeon's Revelation?

What you said is true of manga, TV, movies, books, and so on. Guess everything's cancer, then.

>>155110684
Oh no, X makes more money than Y! Might as well give up on Y because "Western comics are cancer". After all, it's all about money.

Are you sure that you're not just talking about the American industry, and ignoring the rest of the Western world?

Are you sure that you're not just talking about two publishers and one genre, instead of an entire medium?

>>155110768
>>155110774
this pretty much
the train of thought of "it's all shit anyway" doesn't lead anywhere

if you're not trying to find good things they won't just appear out of nowhere

if you're not a part of the mass appeal then guess what fucko, get on working instead of complaining

Stop trying to compare Manga to western comics.

They're in totally different situations and target totally different ranges of people.

The pure volume of manga published allows it to come in flavors for literally everyone ranging from literal kiddies, to high schoolers, to college students, to your fucking mom and filthy gaijin. And the doujin community is alive and well and actually of respectable quality and pushes out real future artists.

Comic books come in "ye old capeshit/newspaper comic" flavor or "hipster flavor of the month iteration of capeshit/newspaper comic (WE SWEAR THIS WRITER IS BETTER EDITION)" flavor or "neo-hipster beyond capeshit discussing edgy "philosophy" and "politics"" flavor.

>>155110955
>Comic books come in "ye old capeshit/newspaper comic" flavor or "hipster flavor of the month iteration of capeshit/newspaper comic (WE SWEAR THIS WRITER IS BETTER EDITION)" flavor or "neo-hipster beyond capeshit discussing edgy "philosophy" and "politics"" flavor.
>I don't actually read comics but this is what I think they are

>>155110706
Still better than Uderzo's solo works and some of the Spirou continuations.

>>155111024
Isn't that what I just said?

>2017
>still no manga board
butt why?

>>155110768
Still denying it? Fine whatever I'm not going to get into this retarded argument because you're always going to deny deny deny.

>>155110774
Ratios of good to shit exist you know right?

Comics is a cancer filled medium much more cancerous than manga. The discussion of it does not belong on this board. The industry is shit and not fixing itself.

>>155110826
Oh yes I'm sorry the comics medium is a robust medium and there's definitely nothing wrong with it.
I've read plenty of comics. I'm well aware of the amount of good comics that exist. I'm telling you the ratio of good to shit is really bad. Anyway this thread does not belong here.
I bet people like you also argue western animation is in a healthy spot.
Just go back to /co/ if you want to discuss your fucking comics and how the comics industry definitely is not in a bad or unhealthy spot.

>>155110955
No one compared comics to manga, you just imagined that
also don't talk about something you've never seen before

>>155111075
My dream:

/ac/ - Anime & Cartoons
/com/ - Comics & Manga

>>155111111
How about no. There's a reason there separated. If you can't see why go back to /co/

>>155111111
Fuck you, and fuck your 1s.

>>155111111
WORST SEXTS I'VE EVER SEEN

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>>155111111

>>155111097
The fact that you don't know the difference between "medium" and "industry" indicates that you don't know what you're talking about.

Manga and comics are the same medium.

>>155111036
Yes, but it is more true when I say it because my opinions are facts.

>>155111111
wasted

The notion that a writer and artist as separate people would inherently produce better work than one person doing both is absurd and I don't understand why anybody believes this.

>>155111097
>western animation is in a healthy spot
Technically speaking big companies are heaps and bounds beyond in animation compared to your every day TV anime, there are exceptions but they are few and sparse.

Japan was way ahead of its time at one point but then it rapidly crashed and now cosmic years away from disney and pixar.

>>155111097
>Comics is a cancer filled medium much more cancerous than manga.
Hahaha, no. Manga has a higher overall volume, but there is just as much cancerous bullshit. Tons of anthologies are padded out with literal garbage, and shounen as a whole is as bad as cape comics. To say nothing of the incessant waifufagging bullshit that plagues manga.
>>155111176
This.

>>155110990
>I SWEAR THERE ARE GOOD COMICS
I'm not saying there aren't anon, but lets face it. The western comic industry isn't exactly keeping pace with manga output. The sheer volume of absolute shit is probably greater for manga, but the volume of gems is higher for the same reason.

How many new issues of good comic books can you read in a month? Meanwhile, how many manga series do you think you can follow?

That said, I'm not saying you have to pick one. Read both.

I just find statements like " go full western comic standards, the more people you got in there the better, 5 artists, 6 artists, it's all just convenience, with good cooperation and additional staff manga can become so much more than it is right now when people don't try to multi-juggle being a one man army for such a diverse set of skills required." to be pure pants on head retarded.

>>155111110
Literally the OP, you faggot.

>>155111194
Because that's true for most cases when that ever happened on a statistical level?
Just look around, not so hard to understand.

>>155111271
>Literally the OP, you faggot

>the more people you got in there the better
Wooooooow, mangaka are all solo workers and the notion of having more people work on a manga is foreign to you?

Are you actually retarded or just pretending?

>>155111176
Oh whatever I've been referring to the industry except for like one sentence the entire time. Anyway I'd argue the medium is in a bad spot as well because comics creators are generally shit heads. Again many more shitheads than the amount of manga creator shitheads. There's a reason a majority of people on this board read manga and not comics. You might be one of the fags that say "I transcend this" but the truth is you just haven't realized how different the two are. Literally go back to /co/.

>>155111233
Still better than the comics industry.

>>155111213
>Big companies are heaps and bounds beyond in animation
Prove it. And don't compare a movie to an anime. Also even if it is the stories are so bogged down in the west it's ridiculous. Even when the animation is well done the story is rarely above mediocre.

>>155111353
OP was wrong about how manga works, and OP was wrong about how comics work, but you were wrong too when you said that nobody was comparing manga to comics.

>>155111353
>He thinks having drawing assistants and having half a dozen writers is the same thing.
Alrighty.

>>155111440
>Anyway I'd argue the medium is in a bad spot as well because comics creators are generally shit heads. Again many more shitheads than the amount of manga creator shitheads.
But they are the same medium.

So again, you have proven that you don't know what you're talking about.

my gripe is that they aren't animated

>>155111493
>But they're the same mediums
Sure but the fact is cultural differences make their takes on the medium so different from one another that they might as well be different mediuma

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>>155111440
>Still better than the comics industry.
>I'm just going to refuse to acknowledge rampant problems and cancerous bullshit when it's something I like

>>155111545
Not really, no. Unless you don't know what a medium is.

It's just words and pictures mixed together. What next? Japanese paintings are a different medium than American paintings? Japanese novels are a different medium than American novels?

>>155111615
Fine fine this is a semantic argument so I will concede since it does not matter

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>>155108940
No.

God no.

Fuck you.

The way it works right now is just fine because anyone can pick a pen and release something. Whether good or bad, the audience will be the one to judge.

If it has weak art, so long as it's entertaining it can still pass : see OPM and Mob Psycho.

If it has shit story, you can still enjoying it for the art.

Ideally it will have both in good amounts. The more barriers you put between the creator and his creation (other artists, "additional staff" god knows what else) , the less the finished work will resemble what the creator had in mind. One artist and one writer teaming up together is the perfect sweetspot, any more than that and it's too many chefs in the kitchen.

Assistants are also fine I suppose, but I'd honestly allow them more for their sake because they get to learn/improve from professionals and then proceed to release their own works. (Like Nihei's assistant starting Dorohedoro)

>x culture needs to be more like y culture

Slap yourself for ever thinking that.

>>155111610
Nope I recognize problems in the manga industry they're just not as bad as the comics industry. I don't know why that's so hard to conceptualize for people still arguing with me.

>>155111713
It really says something when it's like pulling teeth to get you to acknowledge a simple universal fact...

>>155111759
It's because you're wrong. They're DIFFERENT problems, but they're just as bad.

>>155111759
>I don't know why that's so hard to conceptualize for people still arguing with me.
Because you've been making nonsensical statements and using words whose definitions you don't seem to understand.

So, which comics industry are you talking about anyway? Be specific.

>>155111773
You're not really addressing the point I'm trying to make though. Their takes on the medium are incredibly different which is why their is a distinction to begin with (manga vs comics). It would be stupid for you to deny that no?

>>155111830
What is manga's take on the medium? What is western comics' take on the medium?

>>155111795
Fixing the "problems" you claim the manga industry has would make it identical to the western industry.

Wouldn't it be logical to assume that by doing that, you'll invite the problems the western industry has? It's not rocket science. The manga industry has its problems, but not having several artists working on a single series is NOT one of them.

>>155111194
if you have infinite amount of time, then working separately or working on both wouldn't make a difference. But manga schedule is pretty damn constrict, being able to focus on one thing would naturally improve the quality of your work.

>>155111795
>They're equally bad
Leave

>>155111823
Like what? The argument that the comics industry and manga industry are equally bad/good? That's a nonsensical argument. The argument that there are more good manga than comics?
Please point to the nonsensical.

American and European. Before you say the European industry is healthy post hard numbers because I have a lot of trouble believing it.

>>155111873
>Fixing the "problems" you claim the manga industry has
>you
There are 17 people in this thread. Who are you addressing? Which "problems" do you take issue with?

>>155111866
Manga: Black and White (sometimes slightly colored) with a generally distinctive style that you can pinpoint.
Western comics: Colored with some black and white. Generally either cartoony or realistic with very little in-between. Generally less diversity in terms of story types.

You can find contradictions to both of these but they are general trends that put them into distinct groups

>>155108940
How does it feel being a pretentious piece of shit?

>>155111906
>Please point to the nonsensical.
That you use "industry" and "medium" interchangeably.

>American and European.
So you're conflating two different industries.

>Before you say the European industry is healthy post hard numbers because I have a lot of trouble believing it.
Right, because it's sales that matter, not quality.

>>155112018
So they're the same medium. A novel is a novel regardless of whether it's in first-person or third-person. Style doesn't change the medium.

All this time you've wasted trying to cover up for your mistakes...

>>155111873
>Fixing the "problems" you claim the manga industry has would make it identical to the western industry.
I never said anything about fixing them. I said they're THERE. Not to mention how flawed that statement is.

> The manga industry has its problems, but not having several artists working on a single series is NOT one of them.
Not even the problems I was referring to. See also
>>155111233
>Tons of anthologies are padded out with literal garbage, and shounen as a whole is as bad as cape comics. To say nothing of the incessant waifufagging bullshit that plagues manga.
The idea that that manga is on the whole somehow better is a farce.

>>155112031
I ceded that point because I realized you're right and I should use medium but I will say that industry is not the right word for I'm trying to describe when I do refer to medium. I guess a better word would be style.

Sales don't matter but they show the health of an industry. A healthy industry generally has healthy comics coming out of it because there's more incentive for artists to participate and find works to be inspired by. Western comics have an unhealthy industry that inspire shit artists

>>155111111
Kill yourself.

>>155112079
They are the same medium yes. I've apologized for this mistake already. Style does make it distinctive and I have trouble believing that you would confuse say an American novel with a Japanese novel.

>>155111111
Fuck off.

I binge read manga and it's suffering waiting for updates, but it doesn't feel that bad for anime. Don't know why.

>>155112103
Should not use medium*

>>155112156
1 chapter last like 5 minutes
1 episode last 20 minutes

>>155112103
I commend you for acknowledging that you were wrong, which is a very rare thing to see on 4chan.

But consider it from my point of view: From the very beginning of this discussion, you've been approaching this discussion from a fundamentally flawed standpoint, and your standpoint hasn't changed even after being proven wrong on some of its basic elements. It doesn't inspire confidence in the idea that you know anything about non-Japanese comics other than Marvel and DC.

>>155112144
Right, one is in English and one isn't.

>>155108940
Your post is bad and your opinion is juvenile.

The very specific elements that you decry mangaka for are what defines their work for fans. You may not like certain things, but what you think and like really doesn't matter because there are other people who enjoy it greatly.

There are some great collaborative comics, but it is not an inherently superior method and in many ways I would argue that it more often is the downfall of a work.

>The biggest problem with it is that people approach it with too many different viewpoints
This sums up everything about your deeply flawed character.

>>155108940

Shitty authors.
The author will come up with a great premise and carry it for a while. Shit starts getting interesting.
The author will reach a threshold in what he can do with a limited cast.
Suddenly, a heretofore unknown character appears!
author spends weeks spinning them up into something interesting.
Can't carry it any further
Suddenly, a heretofore unknown character appears!
author spends weeks spinning them up into something interesting.
Can't carry it any further

Suddenly, a heretofore unknown character appears!
author spends weeks spinning them up into something interesting.
Can't carry it any further

The popularity of the manga dips and they make a decision to cut it, so author slaps on a meaningless ending that resolves nothing.

>>155111111
RIP /a/

>>155112268
What's fundamentally wrong with my argument? If I cede the fact that medium was the wrong choice of words what part of my argument fails?
I know plenty outside of marvel and dc. The fact that marvel and dc dominate the market and inspire the majority of comic artists (even more of obscure) is a large reason why comics are cancer. Sure jump and shonens have a huge market in the manga industry but the difference is that shonen is a much healthier genre than the marvel/DC superhero genre. Don't take this as me saying "only the big ones matter". That's stupid. All I'm saying is that the big ones have an influence on mostly everything that is made.


Nope. There are cultural differences between the two nations that pops in how stories are told, the langauge used (and I mean like figures of speech not the written langauge), and the stories themselves. Different cultures are different you know?

>>155112018
Those are terrible summaries. Here's a good one

Manga: Japanese comics. Generally printed in greyscale. Asymmetrical panel layouts tend to emphasize motion, making the visual pacing markedly different from western comics. A massive industry, with many different genres of work for many different age groups. Mangaka tend to draw and write their own original works, supported by assistants and an editor.

Comics: Western comics. Typically printed in color. Primarily consists of episodic Superhero stories or gag comics. Panel layouts are more static, generally with more dialog per page. Smaller than the Japanese manga industry, with a heavier focus towards marketing to children and teenage males. Comics are generally made by committee, with a hired writer and artist working within the framework set by the company for established franchises.

>>155112584
Those are better summaries I agree.

>>155112430
Stop reading battle manga exclusively?

>shounen
>genre

>>155112554
>What's fundamentally wrong with my argument?
Well, let's lay all our cards on the table:

>Western comics are cancer
Is this true or false?

Is it an accurate statement, or were you exaggerating for the sake of making a shitpost?

After being called out for your shitpost, did you admit that it was a shitpost, or did you attempt to defend your position with flawed arguments (where you are unable to tell the difference between medium, industry and style)?

>marvel and dc dominate the market and inspire the majority of comic artists (even more of obscure) is a large reason why comics are cancer.
They are the majority of sales, but only in America's direct market (specialty shops). Outside of the direct market (in bookstores and online stores), they are not the majority of sales in America. Outside of America, they are not the majority of sales.

And that's only sales. They are not the majority of what is available.

So, yes, you only know Marvel and DC, not comics.

>>155112584
>Primarily consists of episodic Superhero stories or gag comics.
>Comics are generally made by committee, with a hired writer and artist working within the framework set by the company for established franchises.
This is not the case. Marvel and DC make up the minority of comics.

>>155112584
>Comics: Western comics.
No.
What you are describing is Marvel and DC, not even all USA made comics, let alone the whole mass of european comics.

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Let's go back to discussing manga.

>Or rather, if we go full western comic standards, the more people you got in there the better, 5 artists, 6 artists, it's all just convenience, with good cooperation and additional staff manga can become so much more than it is right now when people don't try to multi-juggle being a one man army for such a diverse set of skills required.
This is dumb, but are there any good "jam" manga series, where a bunch of different creators take turns making something cool?

Posting a comic because it's the best example of what I'm thinking of.

>>155111111
My dream:

/a/ - Anime
/ma/ - Manga

Anime faggots are the worst.

>>155111111
i actually like this idea

>>155111111
>>155113777
kill yourself

>>155113891
That would just create a dead board full of generals, literally useless.

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>>155111111
>>155113777
What the fug is habbeningggg

>>155114239
Which board?

/ac/ would be hell but /com/ would be heaven.

>>155113993
>>155114252
Putting anime and manga in the same board was a mistake.

>>155113777
I'd like a manga board but it's not really a division that needs to happen.

>>155114393
I think it is, unless you can ban people who stick to a single medium. People who both read the manga and watch the anime are ok, but people who stick to just one are absolute cancer, especially if the medium they stick to is an adaptation. That usually happens with anime. Somebody makes a manga that's fairly popular, then comes the anime and with it, the autists that only watch the anime and shitpost about it constantly.

>>155111075
The mods say it's too difficult to separate the discussions since so many anime series are just adaptations.

Since we're under new management now I guess we could try our luck again.

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>>155111180

>>155114522
That, combined with the fact that adaptations sometimes take liberties with the story, is one of the reasons we should separate them.

>>155113777
Be honest, the only reason you want this is because you want your slow niche manga threads, instead of creating a Discord or some sort of IRC channel and occasionally advertising/dumping chapters at /a/ to get interest.

Punpun is the only manga worth reading.

>>155114609
Not that guy, but yes, that's exactly what I want.

>>155114609
No, it's because of shitposting, but relatively slow threads would be nice, too. Fast threads attract shitposters and people who want kneejerk reactions instead of discussions.

>>155114609
>it's a "slow boards are bad" arc

>>155108940
>The biggest problem with it is that people approach it with too many different viewpoints that do not hit the full potential of it.

I read this at first thinking you meant the way in which comic/manga artists draw scenes in their works. Your pic for example, the first thing that caught my eye (as with every comic) is panel A is different from panel B and so too is panel C and so on. Like every panel MUST be of a different viewpoint. Almost like in modern Hollywood films where they use the rapidfire cutting and shots last no more than a second. I despise that. Especially in manga because a lot of the time it feels like they only do so to break the monotony that I think is overwhelmingly prominent and natural in comics. I just wish someone would try to attain a sense of TIME similar to Tarkovsky.

>>155108940
4komas are a comedic failure almost always.

>>155108940
I don't agree in the slightest.

I feel like the main problem in most cases is the nature behind the medium itself.
I think a problem is the necessity of being immediately interesting to catch people attention and get more chapters, forcing you to go big since the start.
I think it's the necessity of always having to have some kind of hook because you're a slave to ratings and you can't take your time to tell a story that could use some slow down in the pace from time to time.
I think a problem is in also wanting to drag on a story beyond its natural life just because editors ask you or just because you are greedy.

I think that someone like Nihei, jerking off on architecture, if what manga should be.
People writing about their interest, being passionate, and focusing on a smaller but alas more passionate fanbase instead of going formulaic and just try to be "perfect" and lower their manga to the common minimum denominator.

The more people you get in there, not just as noname inkers or whatnot, the more you stray away from the artist vision and the more you get bland garbage.

Better to have a lot of niche, polarizing stuff where everyone can find something great to truly love than to have lot of stuff that look all the same and that a lot of people just "like".

>>155110585
Perfectly said in a quarter of the lines than I used.
I'm happy that there are more people that think like that on /a/

Comics is all capeshit, eveything else sells like garbage that's why their trying to get Japanese talent to boost they're one trick market.

>>155108940
>read Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud
>read eromanga
That was the weirdest fap I'd had in a while.

I was wondering why this thread had so many replies and was a bit hopeful, but of course it's just arguing about /co/ stuff. Manga threads rarely work here.

>>155114903
>looking at a series on MU, it sounds pretty interesting
>tags: 4-koma
>close tab

>>155110990
Not that anon, but it's a fucking struggle to find American comics with good writing and consistently good art. I've got zero interest in capeshit and stuff that can't keep itself contained. Many mainstream comics have too many hands in the pot syndrome and suffer from inconsistency because of it.
Some webcomics have potential, but suffer from everything that comes with hobbyists and self-publishing.

Only recent things I've ended up liking are "This One Summer" and "The Prince of Cats"

There's the classics of course. But prove me wrong that there's much worthwhile going on in that clusterfuck of an industry now.

Manga undoubtedly suffers from tired cliches, but good things tend to stay.

>>155111713
ONE's draftsmenship is weak, yeah, but he really gets paneling and composition more so than a lot pros. Calling him a bad artist isn't quite fair.
>>155111194
Couldn't agree more, especially when the writer doesn't get that comics are visual medium and writes walls of text that could been more eloquently conveyed visually. Most of the best manga is a solo affair because the mangaka gets that the art leads the story.

>>155115013
>comics are all capeshit
Now even you know that it not true.

>>155108940
>I think the ideal approach for manga would be to have what you see some examples of but not nearly enough is when the writer and the artist are two separate entities.
Nah, I don't really like this. A well-told story involves the telling, not just the story in the abstract, and the presentation (in this case, visual) should be incorporated into that story from the start (in an ideal situation; I'm not saying there aren't any good collaborations).