Writing on anime should be firmly kept to formal criticism. What

>>153848983
Nails the point on the head. If an anime has garbage visuals or visual directing, it is not a good anime.

But you're expecting some level of comprehension and critical thinking out of the anime community which just isn't going to happen.

>>153848983
I'm impressed that this apparently isn't pasta, but I still didn't read all of it.

>>153848983
Writing on anime should be firmly kept in the trash.

>>153849338
No, but that first arc of Naruto was actually really good. Or rather, it showed a lot of potential which could have turned into something completely different, and better.

>>153849338
Yes obviously, watching anime with the expectation of good writing is just arrogance.

>>153848983
>t. sakugafag

>>153849338
>not made by kyoani/dogakobo
>best visuals
nice joke bud

>>153848983
tl;dr

Is this pasta or an actual discussion?

File: [HorribleSubs] Naruto Shippuuden - 495 [720p].mkv_snapshot_07.24_[2017.02.17_17.54.33].jpg (84KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

84KB, 1280x720px

>>153849338
Why do you keep posting Naruto all the time? Nobody takes you seriously at all.

>>153849703
he's trolling, please do not respond seriously

Too long,Didnt read lmao
>muh visuals
get out

>>153849703
Speak for yourself

>>153849728
i think cory was just too deep for you

stick with children's shit like naruto, kiddo

>>153848983

The true question is which girl is best waifu?

>>153849794
Rei

>>153849807

I said best, not worst.

>>153848983
>Movies can't compete in character development, narrative or thematic depth with novels, so why should we care about their writing?
>Writing on movies should only focus on their editing and cinematography.
This is exactly as retarded as you sound right now.

>>153849834
I said Rei, not Asuka

File: kawoshin.jpg (60KB, 481x600px) Image search: [Google]

60KB, 481x600px

>>153849834
kaworu is best everything

>>153848983
Animators themselves generally have the most insightful commentary on animation as they understand the process behind animation better than your layman.

Visual illiteracy among so call animation fans is painfully prevalent. Narration goes beyond word and anything experimental gets blasted as QUALITY. Shit like Watership Down is considered a classic when basic fundamentals of film and art are wholly ignored. All the while, good improvements to Pokémon anime are lambasted.

The focus on sakuga has done some to remedy that, but it focuses more on this cut looks cool or w/e than its purpose and heralds the same animators with little interest towards or discovering new talent.

>>153849852

>a disposable clone
>even qualifying as a waifu

>>153849842
>>Writing on movies should only focus on their editing and cinematography.
This is true though, along with the inherent political discussion that should come with every film.

>>153849683
>>153849693
>>153849728
>>153849757
Neither of you are funny.

>>153848983
Spooky, I was just thinking about this at length yesterday. Thanks for expressing it intelligently.

>>153849974
>This is true though
Decades of writing about cinema utterly wasted.
>along with the inherent political discussion that should come with every film.
Which is strictly correlated to the writing said films.

>>153848983
Who else dropped karekano when MC confessed in episode 1

>>153850176
Don't ever reply to me again unless you're contribuiting to the thread.

>>153848983
> Arguing that animation or film is inherently a narrative medium is insanely reductive and needs to die
No medium is inherently narrative. What the fuck is your point? The vast majority of anime are still narrative works, and arbitrarily not counting the narrative of those things when judging them is dumb as fuck.

>>153850335
Naruto is a narrative work.

>>153848983
the tooth girl

>>153850261
If you're in anime for the narrative, you're in the wrong place. If anything, good anime excels visually so it's inherently the most interesting thing to comment on.

>>153850335
no caps is lame

>>153850425
If you're in anime for the visuals, you're also in the wrong place.

>>153850443
Yeah, also stop avatarfagging.

I love how 99% of these Naruto shots don't even look good.

>>153848983
I don't think you understand what formal criticism is

File: 1486277679591.png (296KB, 495x419px) Image search: [Google]

296KB, 495x419px

>He fell for the "visual medium" meme

OP here, I've haven't responded to anything posted in this thread so far so don't think I'm the Naruto guy samefagging. I wrote this all drunk and I'm going to sleep.

>>153850540
I meant besides Naruto, that should be inherent in every post.

>>153850659
Fuck off back to /pol/ retard.

>>153850739
It's obviously good ol' tammy back from the dead.

>>153850766
I would disagree but I'm not really interested in arguing about what opinions digibro holds

>>153850809
What? Digibro first and foremostly goes on about literally everything OTHER than visuals

>>153850848
cosplay con girls don't give a shred of a shit about analysis

>>153850837
anon that's just not true

>>153850739
>>153850766
>>153850772
>>153850837
>>153850848
>>153850894
Cancer.

>>153850129
Politics is tied to the form of a work.
>Soviet constructivism was a direct attack on capitalist economies and the style was employed in cartoons

>>153851127
>Politics is tied to the form of a work.
Just as much as it's connected to its content.
Though I must commend you for your cherrypicking.

File: [HorribleSubs] Bernard Jou Iwaku. - 11 [720p].mkv_snapshot_00.18_[2016.12.16_04.54.07].jpg (80KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

80KB, 1280x720px

>>153849307
This.

Even if those that write about anime were to broach formalism in their criticism, it'd still be bad because those people are still going to be idiots.

>>153849338
It unironically does have the best animation of any TV series though.

>>153851603
6/10 I replied

File: character animation.webm (814KB, 852x480px) Image search: [Google]

814KB, 852x480px

>>153851871
he's right

>>153848983
>The majority of narrative criticism is just glorified plot summaries with the author inserting a personal philosophy he/she's been interested in at the time. Worse of all are those who can only talk about plot holes as they have absolutely nothing insightful to say about the work in question.
This is true.

>Arguing that animation or film is inherently a narrative medium is insanely reductive and needs to die. Dismissing the production aspect of the work as "pretty colours", claiming to watch anime for the "story/writing", people like this should just not be taken seriously as they are 99% of the time completely ignorant on not just anime but art as a whole.

This is not true. Anime is a visual medium and should be treated as one, but how good it looks is completely separate from how it uses its visuals. You tell story THROUGH visuals, you can have an amazing story without a single line of dialogue, and frankly every story in a visual medium should be understood even if you muted it. If by narrative you meant dialogue and exposition and the likes, then you'd be right in saying animation or film is not an inherently narrative medium. But narrative is not dialogue, it is synonymous to story, which is not specific to dialogue and CAN be told entirely through visuals. Also things like script, writing, etc. are not dialogue specific either. You still have to write and script the visuals, just like a book author would describe the setting of a scene.

But yeah overall most anime critique is fucking terrible and doesn't take genre or intention into account. Most anime critics couldn't even tell you the different between plot and story.

I judge anime by whether I enjoyed the package in some level t b h.

>>153853460
Have you seen like 5 anime naruto is a slideshow compared to a lot of tv anime

File: IMG_0479.jpg (34KB, 495x365px) Image search: [Google]

34KB, 495x365px

>>153849338
>>153849515
>>153849637
>>153849693
>>153849728
>>153849744
>>153850112
>>153850134
>>153850176
>>153850335
>>153850386
>>153850443
>>153850540
>>153850562
Naruto a shit

>>153853887
So you have seen like 5 anime

>>153849693
Oh yeah, seeing that flashback for the 120th time certainly didn't get old.

>>153848983
>Dismissing the production aspect of the work as "pretty colours", claiming to watch anime for the "story/writing"

There's a hell of a lot of space between these two things.

If the visuals are outright garbage, I'm not going to enjoy the show even -when- I'm watching for story/writing.

If the visuals are decent, though, and the story's great? I'm happy. I'm not an art critic, and /a/ isn't a formal art gallery or university classroom. I'll talk about a show being good or bad, or one being better or worse at something than another, but I'm not typing journal articles here.

Hell, the original Macross was great and had some lazy animation at times.

>>153854239
Toradora had a better fight than anything in naruto and it didn't have to be 40 min of flashbacks and 10 min of actually fighting

>>153854239
Gon vs hisoka has no flashbacks and isn't a slideshow

File: m8xTtAJ.png (360KB, 656x341px) Image search: [Google]

360KB, 656x341px

>>153848983
You're right, I obviously watched Higurashi for the art and animation.

>>153854256
I can watch anime that has shitty visuals and animation, but a somewhat good story/writing/storytelling.
In fact, that's how everyone in Japan has done it for decades.

File: naruto and sasuke young.webm (1MB, 640x360px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 640x360px

>>153854315
gon vs hisoka is like one of the only well-animated fights in HxH the rest are just back and forth punch spam between characters

one fight doesn't negate the amount of shit fights that HxH has

also naruto's flashbacks that break up the flow of fights are better than HxH's way of doing it which is just to do 10-minute monologues such as "he disappeared, where did he go ? hmm did he teleport ? no there is blood ! that means i touched him, i see he's invisible ! but why didn't he use it sooner ? one of his allies must have the ability to make himself and others invisible !"

naruto's flashbacks actually help a lot of the fights by adding emotional weight instead of making people tune out

File: [PWM] Angel's Egg [BD 1080p 10bit FLAC][97E33F83].mkv_snapshot_00.11.01_[2017.01.02_19.07.28].jpg (517KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

517KB, 1920x1080px

>>153848983
But the best animation/visuals are good because they further the narrative. Anime is a visual story telling medium. Flashy sakuga is pretty to look at, but meaningless without a narrative. Good animation uses visuals to tell a story, which is why I've always felt that animation without dialogue is the highest form of the medium.

>>153854447
angel's egg is garbage though

>>153854418
>naruto's flashbacks actually help a lot of the fights by adding emotional weight instead of making people tune out
Are you really this delusional

>>153854418
>naruto's flashbacks that break up the flow of fights are better than HxH's way of doing it
This, but only flashbacks to things the viewers haven't seen yet.

File: [PWM] Angel's Egg [BD 1080p 10bit FLAC][97E33F83].mkv_snapshot_00.03.10_[2017.01.02_18.59.54].jpg (349KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

349KB, 1920x1080px

>>153854473
Have considered that maybe you have shit taste?

The real queation is ' why anime is even made?'
We don't have to draw 24 frames x 60 xseconds x 21 minutes. In the same way that we can ask why does this movie based on a novel gets made, the story is already there. And it sold well enough to that it was worth animating/filming.
Anime is all that makes its parts. The story, characters, music and visuals all are part of what makes an amine great. It's stupid to dismiss any part of what defines this artform.

>>153854337
I think it varies a bit depending on what I expect from the show, and whether it's consistently "bad" or just bad in spots.

Original Utawarerumono had some nasty spots, but they didn't ruin the show for me because I was in love with the story and characters.

>>153854509
He watches anime just like you. That means that you and him have shit taste, and you aren't different from each another.

Incorrect.
The forte of the medium is that it allows to tell any kind of story easily.
If the story is irrelevant and to be removed, may as well be watching disjointed fragments of various animations, only the most exquisitly created, instead of watching entire shows.
Also, animation quality in most anime is also rather poor. Not to say the stories are any good either.

>>153848983
Anime is not art. It's a product, and it has well-defined purpose - to serve as a masturbatory aid. Whether it gives you a proper boner, or a heart boner or a male fantasy boner, or a self-pity boner matters not, the pornographic aspect is always present. Now of course there is an occasional artsy work now and then, but even that is usually inherently pornographic. Exceptions to this are few and far between, and all the writing on them have already been done many times over.

Writing on anime therefore should be firmly kept to gauging the doujin potential of a given work.

File: 1460506164082.png (180KB, 379x551px) Image search: [Google]

180KB, 379x551px

>>153848983
>naively caricaturizing an entire medium

>>153855199
t. Sigmund

>>153848983
>Arguing that animation or film is inherently a narrative medium is insanely reductive and needs to die. Dismissing the production aspect of the work as "pretty colours", claiming to watch anime for the "story/writing", people like this should just not be taken seriously as they are 99% of the time completely ignorant on not just anime but art as a whole.
So are you arguing that artstyle and animation are more important than storywriting?

>>153848983
>There is no comparison you can make to film or literature
That's just retarded. If you exclude the possibility of a comparison from the getgo, you simply lose out on additional perspective. You don't value that? That's good for you.
I agree with the rest though.

>>153850499
If you're in anime for a gf, you're also in the wrong place.

You point of gaining more knowledge about anime production and expanding beyond plot is a good one.

But you shouldn't abandon plot completely. At the end of the day most anime is trying to tell a story, and the result should be assessed by that criteria. Most shows pre-macross have low quality animation, but many suceed anyway because of their characters and story.

Find a balance.

What I dislike is the modern overexaggerated focus on movement. You are only looking at half the picture. Animation consists of TWO parts, movement and stills. By disregarding stills, you are doing the medium a disservice by dismissing one of the important parts of good animation. Simpler models with more movement is not necessarily better animation. Stills is just as valid for animation as movement. A good anime should have a balance between the two, saying more movement=better animation is very oversimplificated and actually wrong.

Animation=movement + stills

It's not only movement.

File: 1476310701411.gif (154KB, 704x480px) Image search: [Google]

154KB, 704x480px

>>153849852
And you said it wrong.

>>153856983
Very true.

Also the obsession with fluidity, as if the frame rate is the most important aspect in a good cut rather than proper conveyance of movement and weight.

Kare Kano is so FUCKIN' boring you know.

>>153857302
Yeah, framerate is another thing. I don't think I've seen that much focus on that, but if it were true then the best animation ever would be those cheap western flash animation where the models aren't even put properly together, because the computer fills the gaps so well.

It just bothers me a bit. Anime fans have always told western animation enthusiasts that movement isn't all, and that detail and composition are also important. And just as the western animation fans start to think that yes, maybe they were close minded, anime fans start shitting all over anything that doesn't constantly move and actually undermine everything that makes anime unique.

Anime fans were right to begin with, animation doesn't need movement to be good if the pictures are interesting to look at.

>>153857510
Please don't monologue.

>>153857767
He's got some points though.

The lack of animation tends to distinguish anime from its contemporaries.

>>153848983
>What makes the medium worthwhile is its manipulation of drawings in motion to deliver a unique experience that no other medium is capable of.

This capability is then completely ignored and everyone just draws colorswapped moeblobs in the year's slightly different artstyle.

>>153848983
How does it feel to be the cancer that is killing anime?

>>153853699
>frankly every story in a visual medium should be understood even if you muted it

I agree with most of what you said, because people really should start understanding how visuals are part of the narrative. Hell, I'd argue that visuals specifically in fight scenes can be a dialogue in and of themselves. That being said, I still think dialogue can move the plot along in a way that is just as engaging to the audience.

>>153850837
Yeah he argues about more autistic things, like how we shouldn't call hentai hentai

>>153848983
OP I largely agree with most of what you're saying but an anonymous image board isn't the right platform to have this discussion, certainly not one as shitty as /a/. It's impossible to maintain a conversation with tripfagging and most of the people here are going to call you pretentious, which honestly you do sound. I rarely say this but please go back to rebit, you clearly don't understand the merits of this website.

>>153860738
*without tripfagging
kek

>>153860738
You should go along with him

>>153860775
good one

>>153853699
>and frankly every story in a visual medium should be understood even if you muted it
I used to think this way but then you close the door to almost all narrative that has any degree of complexity without having to implement interpretive visual language that would turn the layman off. You can say "fuck the layman!" but then the medium dies. This is especially true of anime, where abstract works are incredibly rare, especially in the mainstream.

Just think to yourself: "how could you tell the story of citizen kane without dialogue", you will either think of soviet-style flashing visuals which denote the narrative by association, or a silent movie dumbshow of two men dancing around each other in lieu of a conversation. It just wouldn't work.

What's most important to consider is that amongst all artistic mediums film is the one that comes closest to replicating real life. How do events unfold or how are stories told in real life? We use language. This is the means by which our entire understanding of the motion picture has been constructed because cinema was built in an attempt to replicate reality.

Finally your reading basically looks at film as a visual medium exclusively when it is an audio-visual medium, and benefits from it. The things denoted through score, sound effects, dialogue and monologue can be as effective and subtle as visual storytelling. Think about the voice over that opens Sunset Boulevard, think about the dialogue in Persona, these are incredibly effective narrative devices that could not be replicated in a silent movie.


But to quote you: But yeah overall most anime critique is fucking terrible. Every academic text on anime I have looked at studies it as a story and social piece before an actual work in its own right. It's frustrating because theorists in the 1930s-40s all said animation was the purest, most involved means to tell a story through visuals, but because the criticism of animation is lacking it's gone to shit.

>>153861262
>But to quote you: But yeah overall most anime critique is fucking terrible. Every academic text on anime I have looked at studies it as a story and social piece before an actual work in its own right. It's frustrating because theorists in the 1930s-40s all said animation was the purest, most involved means to tell a story through visuals, but because the criticism of animation is lacking it's gone to shit.

So is there any actual criticism that exists and is constructive?