How do we perfect the battle shounen genre?

They fight naked

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It's already perfect though

Shounen isn't a genre.

Remove powerlevels.

>>153089407
I didn't get past volume 3, dopes it gets beter?

Making Tsugumomo an inspiring example of the genre and forgetting about fucking dragon ball and one piss.

>>153089935
It might just be me but the pace has slowed down, Deku vs Bakugou round 2 was great though

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>>153089264
I approve.

Gotta be a mix between the second part of HxH Chimera Arc, FMA and original Dragon Ball.

>>153089237
By adding harem

>>153090856
>HxH Chimera Arc
Fuck you! That's what killed HxH

>>153090897
This is objectively wrong

>>153090906
Why you say that?

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All your favorite cute moe girls from comedy/SoLs now in a battle shounen anime.

>>153089264
>>153090897
You kidding, but i think Tsugumomo and change123 are way better than many other famous shonen manga.

>>153090856
Fuck you dude. Fuck you.

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>>153089237
It was already perfected.

>>153091082
That's not a valid argument.

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>>153091020
>change123
I....I'm not alone in the universe!

>>153089809
This.

>>153091020
>other famous shonen manga.
like?

>>153091146
I've also read it
It was kind of popular here when the scanlation finished

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We need more manga like Akame ga kill.
The concept was poorly delivered but i think it can be the core of much better anime/manga.

>>153090164
>deku loses once again confirm author's raging boner for Baku

why he's not the main character at this point I will never know, the bias is so obvious.

>>153091235
Why did it have a rushed ending though? Was it canceled or something?

>>153091160
Fairy shit, and Kenichi.
And i would add others but i wanna spare myself the fanboy butthurt.

>>153091400
Fair enough, I agree
Come on anon, do it

>>153091309
Some evidence suggest that Hori wrote that fight at the seat of his pants depending on what popularity poll said.

>>153091690
Okay, then what's the excuse for every other time he's been unbeatable?

>>153090958
Not him but Chimera Ant ruined HxH for me.

The Ants were awful antagonists: they were an unforshadowed threat that escalated too fucking quickly and got too damn dark. Meruem was a Gary Stu with no personality. Kite was introduced only to be useless and get immediately killed... then he becomes a girl. Gon was a good for nothing who accomplished jack shit. Meruem was "defeated" in the most asspull way possible. No Hisoka, no Kurapika, no Spiders... instead we get a wannabee Kuwabara and some pussies. Every single thing about Chimera Ant sucked.

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>>153089237
>How do we perfect the battle shounen genre?

Was done pretty much right out the gate.

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>>153089237
what about this?

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>>153092485

>>153089237
Beet the Vandal Buster

>>153091842
Pretty sure All Might mopped the floor with him.

And he is probably still butthurt about Todoroki.

>>153092803
>Pretty sure All Might mopped the floor with him.

as well he should have.

>And he is probably still butthurt about Todoroki.

he still won that fight, despite the fact his quirk should not have been working properly due to the cold, sick plot armor by the author in that one.

>>153089407
But Boku no Hero is shit though

>>153092299
seconded

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>>153093124

>>153090856
>and original Dragon Ball
No

>>153093357
why?

>>153093368
There's nothing good in Dragon Ball

>>153093368
Nice argument

>>153089237
Make it more like Dragonball, the original Dragonball. Power levels are a no no. Also Shonen is a demographic not a genre.

>>153092485
pretty good

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It was already perfected a long time ago.

>>153093807
If he had just said Shonen, you'd have a point.
But he said Battle Shonen, which could be understood as a genre.

>>153089809
>Battle shounen isn't a genre
>>153093807
>Battle shounen
>No powerlevels

>>153093935
The best of his time but still bad

>>153089237
No team, just 2 MC's

>>153093979
>>153093989
Well I guess you have a point then. And yeah you have a battle shonen without power levels. Look at fma. A always got the vibe that some people were more suited to fighting other enemies rather than simply X is stronger than Y

>>153093935
I'm actually watching this for the first time right now. Yusuke has been in this cave fighting Shinobu for a decade now.

>>153093935
This

>>153094402
You can use strategy and powerlevel at the same time

>>153094555
See: Jojo. Where the most powerful stand user in the world gets defeated by a fucking rat.

Battle Shonen suffers from the power level thing only because the MC keeps getting stronger and the supporting cast usually stays the same. Look at Dragon Ball. Everyone is a jobber except Goku. Even Vegeta.

>>153089899
This, but long-running shonens already end with a powerladder of:

>powerup MC
>villain
>normal MC
>everyone regardless of race and techniques used

>>153089407
It's enjoyable but Deku is bland as fuck. Everyone else has more potential to be more interesting than him.

He's not bad by any means though

>>153094691
Vegeta has always been a jobber since Zarbon

>>153089237
HxH but with good battles and techniques

Start using pre-existing universes, but don't use any old characters. This whole idea that if you use the same world for a show, it must be a sequel or a prequel and it must all have the same characters and tie into the same story as the original. This is fucking bullshit. I didn't want to watch naruto's princeling child do some boring crap, I want a whole new story with a whole new village in a whole new time with the same universe. Think about all the good shonen we could pump out doing original stories that aren't all just copies of the original. It would really allow you to flesh out the more interesting universes.

>>153094691
>Look at Dragon Ball. Everyone is a jobber except Goku.

I think it was still more or less fine up to the Cell saga.

Am I the only one who enjoys interesting and inventive training arcs? I feel like it's so easy to do horribly and make it boring as shit, but if you do it right, you get a great sense of progression in the character.

>>153089237
the fighting is actually realistic and the fighting can actually be learned from the anime

>>153091309
Why is it so hard to accept that Bakugou is just that good? The manga goes an extra step to convey to the audience that not only is Bakugou talented but he's also smart and works hard to get the most out of his quirk.

>>153094691
Yeah, this thing that there is not a limit to how much someone can get empowered lead what begin as a simple martial art/street fights manga to a battle of gods.
There is a redundant cicle of bad guys that look undefeatable, MC train again and beat him, so another stronger appear to make the cycle repeat.
I don't say that the characters should not acquire new skills during the story but they should rely more on their actual knowledges and skills like people do in reality. It would be beneficial to set a limit on how much a human body can achieve.

>>153095614
It feels like we will never have another Ippo or Kenichi. Nothing recent has come close in terms of actually being able to make people understand the techniques involved.

>>153095930
there's that lifting manga with the gyaru,hime,tomboy,sensei and macho dude so not all hope is lost

>>153095930
There's Holyland. Too much teen angst for my liking but /a/ loves it from what I've seen.

>>153089899
You forgot to remove your trip. You're welcome for the reminder to stop using it.

The combination of character-driven plot and cerebral fights with just the right balance between action, interesting abilities and insane strategy is what does it to me. Powerlevels are a hole many authors fall into, as much as I loved it in DBZ when I was a kid. Say whatever you want but some of the mangos/animus that have mastered this formula are imo Hunter X Hunter, post-stands Jojo, some chunks of Naruto and so far My Hero Academia

Isekai it, a sapient battle tournament gets reincarnated as a cute girl in a fantasy setting.

>>153089407
>Give MC literal superman powers. No interesting, creative power. Nothing. Just "Punch harder"
>Instead of having him use them in a very limited way because of broken bones (like the icyhot fight), end up giving him a way to use it normally
>Because its only a small percentage he uses now, power scaling will end up being a problem later on

>>153089237
But DB already did it.

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>>153089237
But anon it already has.

>>153099182
>Instead of having him use them in a very limited way because of broken bones (like the icyhot fight), end up giving him a way to use it normally
Because it would have gotten repetitive if he goes all out and constantly have to go to the hospital.
>Because its only a small percentage he uses now, power scaling will end up being a problem later on
Are you retarded?

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By bringing back delinquent Mangas

>>153092400
>only Kenshiro is allowed to beat important bad guys
>every single ally is there to die
Always disliked that about HnK.

>>153099182
>No interesting, creative power. Nothing. Just "Punch harder"

Have you even read it? There are lots of interesting and creative ways to use basic augmentation.

>>153091266
>The concept was poorly delivered but i think it can be the core of much better anime/manga.
What concept was this?

>>153091309
deku hasn't been a fun to focus on and care about since he first saved Ochako

>>153097754
Araki's creation of Stands was an ingenious way to circumvent powerlevels and create a very interesting story dynamic.

Look at Part 4.

Kira's Stand far weaker in a straight fight than Jotaro's or Josuke's. And yet he can 1-shot people and erase them from existence if allowed to.

It creates fights based on strategy and cleverness rather than my ghost punches harder than yours.

>>153101553
That's not because of Stands, though. The power system there is "everyone gets a random power" just like X-Men or whatever. The only innovation stands bring is that you get a ghost to cast it for you.

>>153090906
For once they were actually hunting and being hunted by something and do their job.
The problem with that arc was that got in the way of the fucking eternal hiatus so that arc was around 9 years, so for almost a decade there was no Kurapika, Leorio, Hisoka, etc
Still, that arc had a great build-up, great characters(like damn Morau/rel) and strategy around nen.

If gurren lagann counts then that's it. It is the ultimate power progression anime.
Between the early tournaments of Dragonball up until the saiyan saga or freeza arc is pure gold.

HxH, YYH, jojo and ippo are all favorites too.

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>>153089237
It's already been done

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>>153089407
>poor man's kinnikuman
kinnikuman is still the best battle shonen

>remove powerlevels
> let allies have meaningfull fights instead of cheerleading the MC
> no whiteknights, female and male fighters get treated the same
> Let the mc have gf from the start and avoid meaningless "will they wont they" scenarios.
> MC has goals that aren't about(or at least, just about) getting stronger or protecting his nakama.
> no overgratious amounts of fanservice.

There.

>>153093935
Will Dark Tournament ever get topped?

>>153089237
dont drag it for too long and set a bunch of rules so characters wont power lvl through everything.

stop giving MC the most basic but still overpowered ability's while pushing everyone else with rad ability's aside or having them become jobbers.

looking at you bleach.

>>153105368
>looking at you bleach, hxh and bnha

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>>153089237
Learn from Lucifer and the Biscuit Hammer and Sengoku no Youko. That is to say, write with an ending in mind and keep combat within the scope of all major characters. The only time you take off that limiter is when you have the final battle. Then the series ends.

>zatch bell strategic battles
>
>clashing of morals eg: rurouni kenshin

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>>153089237
Goku falls in love with Goku.

Unable to confess, he is gifted by a deus ex machina with the Sayajin's phone number. Never minding the strange area code, he immediately calls him, and is overjoyed to find out that he has a crush on him as well. After some investigation, he finds out that the boy he called is his alternate universe counterpart that's evil and killed his AU friends and family. Sort of like an evil twin.

Hijinks ensue as the two strike up a deal to give each other their darkest, most private secrets in order to equip the other with the weapons they need to conquer the heart of each other. While the two chase their respective loved ones, DRAMA ensues as they begin to fall in love with each other and question the NATURE of LAZY WRITING.

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>>153089237

Remember that you have more than one central character who can do shit

some of the best parts of Hakusho or Recca where watching supporting characters fights

Less asspull transformations

I don't know if that doesn't defeat the point of "battle" shounen, but I really like it when it's more about the adventure than the fights, like FMA, the first arcs of HxH and some parts of One Piece.

>>153089407
>we are here to train you kids into superheroes
>but first lets throw you tests in form of tournaments because fuck everyone but the champions
>oh you guys won? the tournaments didn't matter anyway

the anime is dumb and predictable

>>153092485
OPM is seinen and mostly satire of shounen

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>>153089237
Ask Araki.
>>153104733
A lot of these are present in Vento Aureo.

>>153092299
>Meruem was "defeated" in the most asspull way possible

No wonder your opinion's so shit. You have no idea why HxH is good in the first place and would be better off watching any other battle shonen in which the antagonist is taken out via beam spam and power levels.

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>>153089237
Gore. Lots of it

Someone tell the fighters to do something while the other is charging his move for like 5 minutes.
There's enough time too prepare cup ramen and come back to kick the guy in the nuts.

>>153101553
Same with HxH to some extent. Characters with less overall power can overcome characters with more if their nen ability has an advantage or if they use strategy.

>>153101553
>Kira's Stand far weaker in a straight fight than Jotaro's or Josuke's.
That doesn't negate the fact that his stand is broken as fuck

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>>153109644
FINDS

>>153089237
Man, I wish Dragon Ball just stuck like this. 2-3 sagas of Goku traveling and training, then a Tournament arc where we see everyone again and some surprise returns.

>>153109644
Already a thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcVGDV67L-g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_rz1bluG_k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLUjMWRCzic
http://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/keit-ai/list?title_no=36825
https://www.fictionpress.com/s/3206139/1/Keit-AI-Tomoyuki-x-Seiko-Keit%E6%84%9B-%E5%A5%89%E6%96%87-x-%E8%81%96%E5%AD%90

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>>153109644

Keit-Ai has been made into:

>a wiki
>a fanfic
>a fictionpress story
>a manga
>a meme
>an anime preview
>an anime episode
>an anime series
>an honest-to-goodness anime movie
>Oscar considered
>a critically acclaimed box office success in Japan
>a worldwide hit
>the no. 1 highest grossing anime film of all time

Meme magic is amazing.

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>>153109644

>>153092299

nice bait crazy 8

chimera ant arc literally evolved the shonen genre

>>153095481
krillen and goku training was great. perfectly encapsulates the enjoy of hard work paying off. krillen was such a cutie

>>153109644
Memeing aside, I'd love to see the GT universe collide with the Super universe.

>>153092485
It's good when it's side characters fighting, intead of just Saitama letting himself get hit.

>>153093368
He's just trying to fit in, DB has the best fight choreography of any manga

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>>153089237
A family battle shounen.

An entire family composed of all sort of characters like magicians, paladins, dark knights, supernatural monks and everything else engaging in family battles daily. Even their pets participate in the action.

>>153115301
Smug Charlie Brown, was best Krillin.

>>153115604
Isn't that just the first Utawarerumono?

>>153104162
When does it stop being an Ultraman parody and become one? I read a little bit of it and it was enjoyable, but more of sunday paper funny strip than a battle shonen.

>>153089237
By going back in time and preventing Dragonball from existing

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>>153115584
I mean Garou vs Saitama wasn't just him letting himself get hit, so there's that. Saitama fights are still a ton a fun though

Make battles tactical again.

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>>153089407
You posted the wrong show sir.

>>153089237
less waifus, back to the traditional strategy based fights instead of laser spamming, also bringing back mx0

getting rid that retarded trope where
>antagonist for this arc is a bad guy, look at him kill this puppy
>n-nani, you didn't know about his tragic backstory? he was a good boy and dindu nuffin this entire time
FT does that a lot

>>153114148
I don't mind the power scaling so long as it was still about Goku traveling the world/universe. I think it would have been better to see him meeting new people, fighting people with weird techniques, and learning new techniques.

Make full metal alchemist again.

>>153095930
>Ippo
PUNCH HARDER BOY

>>153101317
main character a shit

>>153094717
Really wish Deku was a unpowered vigilante who helped out before Allmight scouted him.

Hell, have it be revealed that Deku was in fact fairly athletic for a quirkless kid and was a wannabe vigilante before he gave it up after nearly getting killed.

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>/a/ suddenly hate BnHA

WTF HAPPENED???

>>153089237
Remove power levels and nakama power. Also let people die.

>>153121019
It got popular

>>153121172
Why is it people always have to die in a shounen. Why can't a person just get beat badly enough that they just get crippled or just stop fighting all together after a bad fight

>>153101480
>>153091309
DAT OBVIOUS SAMEFAG

>>153121019
The anime adaptation got released and it exposed the story for its generic amalgamation of battle shonen tropes

>>153116388
Much like Saint Seiya and the Z portion of Dragonball its largely a nostalgia piece where you could only get into as a kid.

>>153101084
fuuuuuck miss me some Beelzabub

>>153110180
>I have never read it

Jeez. So obvious.
>>153120544
That's fucking stupid

>>153121753
The author's new manga is gonna debut soon on jump

>>153121873
named?

>mfw I almost watched 5mins of a Saitama vs Goku powerlevel discussion video today

I am seriously dumbfounded at how retarded people are. Not even mentioning the comment section, but just the video itself, even though I didn't even watch half of it, you could tell these people have completely missed the point of OPM as a concept.

I'm seriously perplexed at how idiotic some people actually can be. I could hardly believe it was an unironical video, maybe it wasn't and the twist would have been revealed at the end, but I doubt that.

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>>153121626
>generic

The four pratfalls of all shounen are four things

1.Powerlevels that expand beyond the authors ability to concepeptualize them or adequately write with or around.

2.Completely throwing away internal logic for cheap reasons. This will outright shit tank a series harder then anything. Especially if it's a long running seriies.

3.Nonsensical powers. They have to be based on SOMETHING. Also Esoteric powers with nothing based in reality is oft fairly shit.

4.The Hero gets too much focus at the expense of the other characters, even the world.
Things I'd like to see?
Power levels being steady and consistent.

Skill overcoming skill and even power level.

BUT overwhelming power being beaten by a shitty keikkaku that seems like an outright asspull is bullshit no matter what.

Training that makes sense, just basic exercise and meditation and approaching basic dieting advice and tie it into the type of exercise Some of the coolest moments in shounen are the training montages. It's something very deep and primal.

Super forms/serious face. Those are not a dirty word, they're actually rather cool and are an outward manifestation of internal growth change degradation etc etc. Simply handwaiving them is ridiculous.

World building that makes sense with context of the world plus people and places that have their own things going that have nothing to do with the MC but seem just as important somehow.

Power levels that will always stay at a certain level and getting to it or going beyond it will always come at a cost.


No special people, no born gods, no ultimate super powers born from a special gene or bloodline. Everyone starts at zero and while some people have some potential towards certain skills because
Born with it(yes this seems hypocritical but you get what I mean)
Lived a life that indirectly trained them for it(someone who lifted heavy things their whole life and lived a life that helped them become better at it etc etc)
Everyone else trains for it.

>>153121626
Most of the shit in this thread is generic as fuck. What a worthless comment.

>>153121763
Why?
Would actually show that Deku deserved it rather then just be a kid that was lucky enough to catch a depressed Allmight on a bad day.

Make more of them like Original DB and HxH.

>Show growth in the cast, both physical and psychological

>No powercreep bullshit or forms on forms on forms

>actually make char deaths meaningful and don't just throw the characters that have outlived their use in the story into a blender like HxH did fuck you the Chimera ant arc sucked

>>153122160
Most of the stuff mentioned in this thread at least has the excuse of being written before the 2000s. There's no reason for something so generic to get any attention in the current era.

>>153121763
then tell me how many tournaments did they have in the manga? I'll be legitimately surprised if its less than fucking 3

>>153122205
Deku proved it by being the only one who went out to save Bakugou despite having no quirk

>>153122116
Fully fleshed out cast.
Not just the people who are powerful enough to beat the current end boss but people who can bring something to the table and can even use the current crisis as a way to evolve in their own way.

>>153122253
>then tell me how many tournaments did they have in the manga?
Literally fucking one you stupid fuck

>>153122244
>>Most of the stuff mentioned in this thread at least has the excuse of being written before the 2000s.
Yeah they and they were called generic back then too. What's your point?

>>153122300
bullshit.

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>>153122231
>No powercreep bullshit or forms on forms on forms
>HxH

>>153122363
They also mentioned fucking DB.
Just ignore them.

>>153122417
I would assume he meant early Dragonball which is still stupid because of this
>>153122231
>Show growth in the cast, both physical and psychological
Since the early Dragonball was practically a gag manga

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1. Fleshed out and developed characters. You need to these and that's where many fuck series fuck up because they just Copypaste a character from another series personality. This means keeping your main cast to 5-8 characters at most and not letting "popularity" votes sway who gets screentime.

2. Power Levels within reason. You need to scale slowly but surely, but never succumb to easy storytelling by making someone anything greater than a city buster.

3. Good pacing in terms of arcs and fights. Arcs need to be functional at a reasonable pace. The maximum an arc should be is around 40-55 chapters, until it's the final arc in which a 85-95 chapters is okay. The opening story arcs should appear episodic and short (5-10 chapters) but ultimately all build up to the first big arc.

4. Don't break your own rules. Your story is a setting in which you're making people believe something is real that isn't. Breaking your rules ruins that.

>>153122264
He's been at that for decades.
He can't be the only kid on the planet who's ever done that.