Why is he so based, /a/?

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>>152899265
Because Nasu wanted to end things big in HF and had to build up a proper final antagonist.

Nakata Jouji's voice.

EMIYA SHIROU

>>152899450
HF is the only route the real Kiritsugu is brought up as important (like all his circumstances, his nature, his family, his actions); the other routes mention Shirou's false vision of him. Hell, one of the bad endings involve Shirou becoming Kiritsugu II by making the wrong choice just to make this more obvious (all over HF is like "are you going to be like Kiritsugu or not?" via Illya and Kotomine). Not to mention that, by a narrative standpoint, the other two routes don't resolve Shirou Emiya's issues. FSN progresses with every single route: the presentation of the character (Fate), deeper study of what makes the protagonist thick (UBW), and finally resolve the said issues in the climax (HF).

It's even in the Tiger Dojo. Question routes (Fate, UBW), answer route (HF). HF is the one that resolves Emiya Kiritsugu's dilemna by successfully giving his heir the life Kiritsugu actually dreamed of, deep inside. It's a generational story. That's how the three families issues are also resolved in HF as well.

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>>152899521
YOROKOBE SHOUNEN
>>152899564
>tfw that Tiger Dojo with Taiga and Illya looking disappointed on you thanks to becoming a superhero

>>152899265
Reinhart is based
Yang is based
Kamina is based
Simon is based
Satsuki is based
Gendo is based
Kon is based

...and then there's this guy who's equal to all mentioned above

>>152900214
What would his deck be?

>>152900267

pots of greed, errywhere.

>>152899564
>Becoming Kirisugu II is a bad end
Having your heart and mind resolved to do what is best for all > saving the life of one girl. Any rational person would make this choice.

This shouldn't be a bad end.

>>152900356
it is actually the only "bad end" in the game where the dead end/bad end screen isn't displayed

>>152900356
>never being happy is a good end

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Because he was true neutral

>>152900356
>to do what is best for all is to kill a fuck ton of people to save the majority

Yeah, not really. There is literally no way Shirou can save everyone like he wants to, and they make sure to grind that into his head throughout the routes. He will never succeed and he will never be happy if he follows Kiritsugu's retarded ideals.

>>152900565
Kirei is Lawful Evil.

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>>152900763
The best villain to a Lawful Good mc desu

>>152900356
>Any rational person would make this choice.
Too bad humans are not rational. If you truly love someone, the world can go fuck itself

>>152900943
>If you truly love someone, the world can go fuck itself.
Fuck off romanticist. Nobody is buying your BS, only dumb asses would choose love over everyone dying.

>>152901097
>he doesn't know about the power of love

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>>152901097
>only dumb asses would choose love over everyone dying

>>152901170
If it can't beat the dick, it ain't shit.

>>152900858
But Shirou is Neutral Good.
Rin is Lawful Good.

>>152901097
Baka. Without love it cannot be seen.

His kicks are like fire

Can we at least agree his motivations and the background about his wife were some terrible writing? Nasu went full edgelord with that shit.

>>152903578
I quite liked it. Kirei being naturally evil could be simplistic and edgy but the fact that it took him years to realize that and his kind of sadness towards it was pretty nice

>>152903578
What's wrong with his motivations? Especially in old nasuverse where kigen exist

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>>152903578
No. Are you kidding?
Being an edgelord who doesn't necessarily want to be one was the whole point of his character. Nature vs nurture, ties in with Angra Mainyuu, and makes him similar yet opposite of Shirou.

How come Fate Zero is the only good thing about the franchise

>>152903578
>edgelord
What do you think about Kuzuki?

>>152901097
What you're forgetting is, due to the fact that Sakura drained mana during sex, she was INCREDIBLE in bed

>>152903578
No, it was quite well done

>>152903728
Fate/Zero was overrated as fuck

>>152903728
You mean Carnival Phantasm?

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>no one discuss F/SF in /a/
>all volumes translated in pdf
>still baiting with F/Z
Suffering

>>152903947
More shit needs to happen, it's too fucking slow.
Honestly, I almost wish they just made it an anime original series with Narita writing the script, would be a lot more fun to watch with /a/. But I guess ufotable is busy for the next couple of years, and they already have 3 other studios doing Fate anime.

>>152903130
Rin chaotic good just like Gil, and Shirou is a total moralfag lawful good ffs

>>152899265
Because he's the nihilistic fuck that we all strive to be.

>>152904109
You don't know what Lawful means senpai. Rin is the definition of Lawful Good, Shirou is not.

>>152904190
Sure mate, and Gil is evil

>>152904044
I think Ufo will animate F/SF in 2019+

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>>152903743
Also a retarded edgelord, though not as much of one. He was not 'I like bad things because I do not like good things', he just had an edgy background that was an attempt to justify his skills being a threat in the first place.
He at least got some positive points from his relationship with Caster.

Full disclosure, I might just be biased due to my enjoyment of Caster, which in turn was biased due to my sympathy of Medea.

>>152904244
Chaotic Good makes sense for Gil, not to mention it's canon in the VN.

>>152904298
Kuzuki's story is only acceptable because the Tohno clan exists as well

>>152904363
They are absolutely unrelated. Did you mean Nanaya? Because even then they're only related for living isolated in mountains.
Nanayas's powers are thanks to the bloodline and inbreeding and shit. Kuzuki's assassins are just molded from birth to be nothing but tools.

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>Rin "I murdered my friend or wiped his memory" Tohsaka
>Lawful good

Shes chaotic neutral at best

>>152904244
how is gil not evil

>>152904436
Whoops yeah it's Nanaya

>>152904523
>murdered my friend
???
She's good at heart and protects innocent people above all, but still follows the mage creed and her family's principles as much as possible, making her Lawful.

>>152904554
Name ONE thing he did that was evil and wasn't just him winning the war

>>152904587
wanting to rape the fuck out of saber ?

>>152904617
and his only reason for desiring the grail was so he could kill everyone anyway

>>152904617
Even Caster did more Saber raping than him

>>152904587
Using a group of orphans chained under a basement as sustenance for a decade.

>>152904577
>Follows magical creed
ahahaha

Read the fucking VN.

>helps innocent
read the fucking vn

>>152904653
Didn't he just want to kill the weak people because humanity had declined to a mere shadow of what it used to be?

>>152904659
Kotomine's fault

>>152904659
Man gotta eat

>>152904692
even then it's still super evil lol

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>any mage
>good

they are all despicable scum.

>>152904692
Easily could have stopped him, and was directly benefiting from it.

>>152904707
Other options exist. Lord forbid Kotomine has to actually provide mana.

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>>152904762
But if humanity is declining so much won't it spell disaster if something isn't done about it?

>reminder that this thing is sitting in South America

>>152904886
the answer isn't killing huge amounts of people, though

>>152899265
i gave up trying to be good and let is desires run wild.

like a real human being.

People that are discussing if Kotomine was evil or not obviously missed or never read his final fight in HF

>>152904680
Both of those are quite true and are shown multiples times throughout the VN. Hell, her whole central conflict is between prioritizing her good nature or her family's beliefs.
Sounds like you're the secondary senpai. Did the UBW anime make her character too hard to understand for you?

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>>152904819
Kotomine wasnt a mage, he didnt have the mana output for Gil. Rin is a prodigy of magic and one of her kind, miles ahead of kotomine and she still needs shirous help to sustain Saber.

Kotomine either gave Gil nourishment or let him fade away which is clearly something that Gil himself wouldnt allow. Few kids for Gil is the lesser evil here, it was unavoidable.

Tldr:feeding kids doesnt mean Kotomine is evil, he had no choice and Gil holds the world as his hostage

>>152904795
deermud is an E tier servant.

>>152903578
i see nothing wrong. he tried so hard to be a good man but he just did not feel happy about it. he married his wife out of pity, thinking he could love her only to realize he was with her beacuse he loved watching her suffer. almost killing himself beacuse of it.

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>>152904900
Are you sure? Because the Nasuverse shits on weak humans

This asshole can materialize and massacre whenever there's nasty rumors going around

A high population of weak shits who spread rumors is probably a bad matchup

>>152905052
>shown multiple times
except in few of the bad ends where she fucked over Shirou

Fuck off waifufag

>>152905080
that doesn't make any of the mages a better person.

>>152905080
He's not, he would defeat Zero/Rider in a straight fight.

>>152905100
>Nasuverse shits
Only Tsukihime world. In Fate worlds there is Human Order

>>152905080
Deermud is stronger than lancelot and can speedblitz him therefore he's above WORLD level

>>152905202
Tsukihime and Fate are the same setting

>>152905223
Shitposting aside Deermud is counter pickl for lancelot.

>>152905119
>fucked over Shirou
Yeah, you didn't read it. At worst she removed his memories and CS to abide by Association rules, while letting him keep living his normal life because she actually cares about him and Sakura.
Not to mention that eliminating competition in a tournament for the prestige of her family is absolutely lawful. Meanwhile, prioritizing Caster over any other Master because she was using innocent people, and her care to never involve outsiders is just part of her good nature.

You literally cannot make an argument that Rin is NOT a good-hearted mage raised to follow stiff and old rules, who also fucks up sometimes. That's very much the core of her character.

>>152904762
im not trying to defend gil here but its a known fact that the world is dying and humans are one of the reasons for it. him killing off 99.5% of humanity would do the world a big favor.

>>152905260
He's actually the counterpick for Alexander, his legend involves him killing an entire army of elite soldiers by himself like it ain't shit. Alex's noble phantasm just happens to be summoning an army, oops

>>152905257
Looks like you was in hibernation. Read Fate/Labyrinth, F/P and F/GO translated summaries/spoilers. We are nNasuverse now liek nWoD and oWoD

>>152905202
wew lad, fuck off with your GO garbage lore.
Besides, even in worlds where there are no DAA, Wallachia could still exist.

I don't really understand what Zero was trying to do with Kiritsugu. I guess I was supposed to feel sympathetic to him or something? Towards the end of Zero I didn't really think of him any better than Kirei Kotomine. Both were murderous cunts that used underhanded tricks to their own gain. Because Kiritsugu had an epiphany towards the end?

Fuck that shit.

>>152905292
Nice downplaying waifufag

>>152905337
You're telling me Shiki and Shirou aren't in the same verse anymore? If that's the case I'm not reading a THING

>>152905361
>GO garbage lore.
???
It's pretty good.

>>152905370
>zero (0) arguments
OK. What exactly did I downplay? Fucking nothing, secondary scum. Read the VN already retard.

>>152905368
>I will make the world peaceful by killing the bad guys
>Woo here comes seihai-kun
"Hey Kiritsugu I will kill all the bad guys for you"
>Wow wtf no

>>152905413
Wow
at least read your own posts fag

Jesus, some people...

So Sabers biggest flaw is that she's dumb as shit? in every fight she gets outplayed by her oponent.

>>152905376
Just no DAA in worlds where servant can be summoned. DA still exist so MeoDP

>>152905468
She's dumb and pretty shitty at actual swordplay, the only reason she's the "strongest servant" is because of excalibeam and avalon

>>152905368
Kotomine's only "goal" was having fun and finding out what was pleasurable to him.
Kiritsugu's goal was creating a peaceful world with literally no war or conflict via a miracle, because he was traumatized and shit.

I still like Kirei more thanks to HF, but Kerry's pretty tragic.

>>152905489
So tsukihime and fate are different universes now?

>>152905376
Basically yes. You're better off pretending nu-lore shit doesn't exist, it's plain retarded.
Tsukihime and FSN might as well still be in the same verse, because the only stories that contradict that are fucking shite.

>>152905581
I always knew Nasu was a hack ever since he said Shiki can't fight on the level of a servant

>>152905548
Tsuki and Fate being same world is always was just speculation.
>>152905581
>You're better off pretending nu-lore shit doesn't exist, it's plain retarded.
What so retarded about new rules?

>>152905639
How was it speculation when we had Carnival Phantasm? Idiot

>>152905704
You don't know what is Ahnenerbe, right? Idiot

>>152905639
>hey Nasu, this world you've built up with an organization of badass ancient vampires where you can summon historical figures in deathly tournaments is so fucking cool
>you even have several stories dealing with different parts of it
>but wait, we're writing this story where that wouldn't make sense
>it's OK bro, just make it so half of the cool shit is in certain universes, and the other half is in other
>nobody will mind anyway, who would ever want a proper serious crossover?
Unecessary retcons that only make the universe less interesting are fucking stupid. Nu-Nasuverse is a mistake that should be ignored by any sensible fan.

>>152905844
I wouldn't want him to do a serious crossover because he can't seem to remember his own power levels. According to Nasu

>Shirou can fight Servants
>Shiki could kill Shirou in a fight
>Shiki can't fight Servants
????????

>>152905844
What is the key difference between Extra world and Tsukihime (+KnK) world then? Parralel worlds and timelines are nothing new in TM.

>>152905844
Real question: did you read CCC, Maoyu and DDD? I understand you don't like DAA changes, but that's all?

>>152905934
Extra world is a completely different setting and tone.
KnK is basically proto-Tsukihime. It was necessary to split because having 2 MeoDP alive at the same time would be plain retarded.

Separating two of the core parts of the Nasuverse, DAA and Servants, is a fucking retarded mistake. Not like new writers actually care about cool lore or telling proper stories, all they want is new Servants and waifus to bring in more secondaries.

>>152905933
I though that Shiki bit was quite clear, she can technically cut and kill servants since they are no different but she can't keep up with a decent servant in direct battle since they are suppossed to move at supersonic speed and so on.

On the other hand servant specs are widely inconsistent between different works and we already have plenty of people that could fight on par with a servant so Shiki should surely qualify.

>>152905933
>????????
Shirou is real swordsman. He not just trace swords
Shiki is guy with MeoDP and knife. He can act like spiderman only against demonic blood.
So?

>>152899265
Because him and Saber are the main characters of fate/zero.
The prequel was literally written just to flesh out their "pasts" and motivations/behavior in the main story.

>>152905969
>untranslated
Of course not, though I understand CCC is a sequel in Extraverse, Mahoyo is in Tsukihimeverse, and DDD is completely unrelated and not even part of the Nasuverse.

>>152906023
>Separating two of the core parts of the Nasuverse, DAA and Servants, is a fucking retarded mistake

I hope you understand that Nero and other DAA still can exist in Fate? They're just DA

>>152906025
Talking about Tohno Shiki, sorry.

>>152906046
Nasu said Shiki would kill Shirou even when Unlimited Blade Works is up(provided his brain didn't explode).
And we know Shirou can fight Servants just fine.
But somehow Shiki, who cut someone into 17 pieces instantly, is not fast enough to fight Servants? Yeah okay Nasu

>>152906123
>Nasu said Shiki would kill Shirou even when Unlimited Blade Works is up(provided his brain didn't explode).
I don't remeber this. Post sourse.

>>152906023
Wait, since when is Tsukihime split from KnK, what's with Aoko and Touko appearing together in a bunch of works?

Fuck, how is KnK split from Fate stuff when we clearly saw Cornelius on a clearing mission in Fate/Zero? Do you mean that KnK is together with Fate but Tsukihime is now completely separate? What about Mahotsukai then?

What about Arcueid in extra (and guaranteed Tsukihime characters in F/GO sooner or later). I really need to update my knowledge.

>>152906123
His brain would definitely explode, so it would be a draw.

>>152906089
Except it also means Tsukihime events didn't happen as we saw them. And there's no longer a faction lead by Trhvmn Ortenrosse with conflicts within the Dead Apostles and all that cool stuff.
Fucking whyyyyy. It's NOT worth it for garbage like FGO or a prequel to irrelevant shit like Protoype.

>>152906202
Touko and Aoko always exists really, it's just that in Tsuki universe Shiki never had the MEoDP so KnK's plot never happened, so they might've never met.

FGO will resort to any asspull to bring in Tsukihime waifu characters for a future event, don't take any of it seriously.

>>152906171
I had the source years ago but it should be easy to google

>>152906213
The point is the speed, if Shiki can "Kill" a million blades flying at him and STILL kill Shirou, then the idea of him being too slow to fight Servants is just ridiculous

>>152905933
Nasu has a problem with consistency in favor of pulling deus ex machina tricks to save characters, especially in FSN.

For an idea of what I mean, recall what saved True Assassin (weakest Servant) from Saber (high-spec Servant)'s Invisible Air attack was a throwaway line about wards against storms being used by desert travelers. This was not even some special skill known by him due to being Assassin, it was just the only magic he happened to know. Implying your average Muslim would be able to withstand this particular Noble Phantasm.
Because that makes sense.

>>152906202
People exist. Related events are not.
>>152906301
Found. Well it's theoretical max lvl characters so probably Satsujinki version of Shiki. Unknow UBW Shirou or HF version.

>>152906219
>Except it also means Tsukihime events didn't happen as we saw them.
How so?
Nothing about there being two separate universes negates events from either

>>152906421
You're dumb and picked an awful example anon. It wasn't specifically against Invisible Air, it was against wind magic. I'm sure most heroic spirits who travelled the desert have some kind of magic ward against fucking wind, it's related to his past, and his identity was just revealed a few scenes before.

What the fuck is the Primate Killer anyway

>>152906064
>DDD is completely unrelated and not even part of the Nasuverse
DDD was in "back alley Satsuki"

>>152906202
Potentially everyone exists in potentially every world, it's a multiverse.
The Cornelius who aided the extermination of Dead in the phillipines or wherever kerry's dad was fucking shit up doesn't have to be the same one who died a few years later after getting eaten by a suitcase

>>152906525
Extra is separate too but servants from extra summoned elsewhere have memories of Extra stuff (at least in F/GO Liz, Nero and Tamamo interactions), why is Tsukihime so special that it's completely apart? Extra world is much more different and it's still part of Fate universe?


Does that mean that they just gave up on Tsuki? What's about VN remake than? Didn't see any news about it for ages.

>>152906525
>no DAAs
>all DAs act independently
>no organization actively tracking down Arcueid so Nrvnqsr wouldn't even need to appear there
The fact that something as huge as the DAAs just straight up don't exist in Fate universes could have tremendous ramifications that lead to Tsukihime not happening. It's an unecessary explanation that will probably not even impact anything all that much, best to ignore like most nuNasuverse shit introduced by the likes of FGO.

>>152906564
Atari Dumbledore's sister's dog

>>152906564
Primate Murder, you mean?
Literally a murderer of primates (humans), I guess.
The only in-universe mention I remember is Angra Mainyu claiming it is better at killing humans than him.

I curious, can Zelretch exist in Fate worlds as DAA using his magic?

>wants to save EVERYONE
>tries to kill Gil or Kirei in both Fate and UBW

Explain this.

>>152906733
Gil is already long dead, a heroic spirit doesn't count.
Kirei... well, he was a dick, no real explanation other than Fate Shirou a shit.

>>152906721
Irrelevant garbage.

ORT will be last beast in F/GO second order 99%.
Nasu build all that cosmology mambo jambo specially for his appearance. I smell it

>>152906667
But they're separate realities. The concept of a multiverse has been around since they started digging into Zelretch's shenanigans

DAAs exist in the tsukiverse because Crimson Moon has a stronger influence
The Einzberns might've even all been mauled by vampires hundreds of years before Fate could happen so no one even knows if heroic spirits can be summoned in the first place because there's no big gamble reason for anyone to try

>>152906702
DAA is literally just a classification

Zelretch is as much a vampire as he is a magus in any world he visits, he's just not on the church's hit list of big bads

>>152906776
>canon
>Irrelevant garbage.
???
In some worlds Primate Murder didn't become Primate Murder. What the problem?

>>152906785
But why make it so Fate and Tsuki could never once happen in the same universe.
Irrelevant, unecessary, stupid. Fuck Nasu, what a hack he has become.

>>152906826
>FGO-related shit

>>152904886
>ORT is no longer the absolute top dog anymore

Man, the powercreep is real.

>>152906843
>FGO-related shit
???
I know you're EOP and will never able to read Tsukihime Remake, but what is your problem?

>>152906776
Gil has earned his right at another life, Shirou has no way reason in his ideals to justify killing him

Also, was it Fate or UBW Shirou that was willing to kill Shinji at the school?

>>152906869
ORT is shit compared to Type-Jupiter who is litteraly star

>>152906733
>Wants to save EVERYONE
>is not actually stupid enough to attempt so in the face of someone about to wipe out Fuyuki City

He lived well into adulthood and long enough to become Archer, while throwing himself into conflict after conflict. He isn't stupid enough to bet his ideals against the lives of many, or get himself killed in the attempt.
And that's the point; he is Kiritsugu-lite. He most definitely wants to save the culprits too, but he can't, and kills even as it pains him. So, he ends up reaching out to Gaia for the perfect solution, just like Kiritsugu reached for the grail.

Also, servants don't count. They are just spoopy ghosts to Emiya. Only female servants count as humans to him.

>>152906877
Fate. Shit was all over the place.

>>152906873
Irrelevant garbage.

>>152906959
>Irrelevant garbage.
It's canon. Officially.

>>152906959
Why do you hate FGO so much? It's story was quite nice if you ignore all the stupid event-related things. Are you fine with Extra stuff and not fine with GO stuff?

>>152907016
Unfortunately. Still pretty irrelevant.

>>152907029
>self-insert protagonist
>first half is pointless garbage
No it wasn't.
Yes, other than Extella.

>>152907029
He's probably same shitpsoter who shitposting about Fate/Tsuki being irrelevant garbage in F/GO /a/ threads. Same style

>>152907101
>shitposting about Fate/Tsuki being irrelevant garbage
Where did this happen?

>>152907073
>self-insert protagonist
Tsukihime

>Saber is the strongest Servant!
>Please ignore that Archer would kill Saber in a sword fight and also murdered her dozens of times in HA and has way more utility
Nasu is a HACK

>>152907122
Check archives. After f/go ova release

>>152907135
Shiki was only a self insert for part of one game

It's kind of weird that the sequel introduces his real personality though

>>152907135
Shiki was relevant to the story, had a proper backstory, sometimes acted like a jackass even in his "normal" mode, developed, and was anything but a mere observer for most of the VN.

>>152907159
Or maybe strongest simply doesn't mean best?

>>152907073
Just consider Mashu as a protagonist, Gudao might as well be invisible for 90% of the time.

>>152906559
>I'm sure most heroic spirits who travelled the desert have some kind of magic ward against fucking wind, it's related to his past, and his identity was just revealed a few scenes before.
But it is not some sort of legendary quality that is special to the Assassin class or True Assassin's identity other than
>Arab
It is just a basic 'protection from wind' spell that any mage could potentially learn and thus be immune to an entire Noble Phantasm with.

>>152907271
>>152907216
Solomon is more like F/GO MC for first order.

>>152907271
>just pretend the character that only exists to have waifus thrown at doesn't exist
That's accurate, but it sure as hell is not indicative of a good story.
Of course, a blank slate for the player goes hand in hand with a waifu gacha mobage, so they had to do it. FGO was a mistake.

>>152907235
Then what does it mean

Because Saber seems like a middle tier servant at best

>>152907288
Of course.
Invisible Air isn't a particularly strong NP, just kind of a secondary weapon for Saber. It's natural that it wouldn't be effective every time.

>>152907301
Sure.
That doesn't mean that the pointless character who's there purely because it's a gacha phone game doesn't exist.
And what about part 2? Are you just gonna pick some other character to be the "REAL protagonist" because it's convenient so that you can call it a good story?

>>152907159
Saber is described as excellent in all parameters, and always a finalist in the grail wars.
Therefore, "strongest", probably in that it has no poor match-ups and can perform decently in all situations.

Meanwhile, both Archers shown are outliers of their class, and even then they will lose 100% of the time to a serious Cuchulain, and lost plenty to Arturia.

To erase struggle between nNasuverse and oNusiverse in /a/ some brave soul need to translate all VN parts from F/GO, cut unnecessary battles (only main ones for immersion) and upload everything on youtube

>>152907568
Honestly doubt that would help with the hate for the game itself (because it's a fucking gacha mobage, not everyone can accept that), but it'd probably help with the lore, sure.

>>152907371
A Noble Phantasm, no matter how relatively weak, being overcome should be a feat, not just some basic ward granting immunity.

>>152907481
I mean Arturia

>>152907650
Really now, who dictates that? To overcome Rider's Bloodfort you just need to erase all the sigils before she activates it. Invisible Air is literally just pressurized air being blown in one direction, it's not some mass murder tool, it barely does environmental damage. I don't get what triggers you about someone who lived in the desert their whole life having an ability that protects them to a degree against wind magic.

>>152900356
>>152901097
This, Anon had a mind of steel and tried to become a Hero of Justice.

Reminder: You cannot save everyone. You cannot be a Hero of Justice.

>>152907796
But that is stopping the NP before it is even activated, not overcoming it. You cannot say that you endured and overcame Gate of Babylon just because Gil died before activating it.

>>152908080
But in this example True Assassin also stops Invisible Air from working before it's even activated, because he had a wind protection charm from past experiences.

>>152908160
Stopping the activation, pedant.

>people complaining about powerlevels not being linear

>>152908220
Either way, every single NP being a huge obstacle is a narrative convention you made up, there are specifically NPs effective and ineffective on certain heroic spirits. Not to mention their power is ranked for a reason. The whole thing is rock paper scissors, IA is a bad play against Hassan.

>>152905138
Not hard, he's a terrible fighter. He needs the chariot or IH to do anything.

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>>152907650
You're Saber master. This guy is yoru enemy. You knows picrelated about him. He knows about your Excalibur and Avalon. Distance is 10km. What will you do?

>>152907159
>>152907235
>>152907368

Rin was going on about Saber CLASS, not Arturia. Also you guys undersell her. Plot induced stupidity in F/Z aside, she's one of the best Servants in the mainline series, only behind Gil and Herc.

>>152907338
It's not indicative of a bad story either. Games like Mass Effect have great story-telling, but Shepard is still a blank slate. You can roleplay him however you want, he has no personality of his own. He can be male or female, good or bad, nice or a jerkwad. And despite that, the Mass Effect games have some of the best storytelling in video games.

I think you're confusing books/VNs who write their own character and video games, where the player is the character and "writes" themselves.

>>152908644
But she's not

Archer is better in every way unless it came down to Excaliblast vs Caliblast

>>152908239
The complaint is about consistency. Imagine of Rin's average Gandr shots were enough to take out one of Berserker's lives.

>>152908275
>a narrative convention you made up
People are not supposed to be able to even compare to Heroic Spirits in the first place, disregarding some super special circumstance or individual, such as:
-Shirou projecting like fuck against Gil
-Kuzuki being bolstered by Caster's Age of Myths magic
-Rin burning through several years' worth of mana in a single attack just to kill Berserker once
The idea of Heroic Spirits being orders of magnitude better than humans is the reason they became a Heroic Spirit in the first place, with the Noble Phantasm being an embodiment of that myth. This is all shit that Nasu harps upon constantly in FSN.
>there are specifically NPs effective and ineffective on certain heroic spirits
Yes, because they are Heroic Spirits rather than being mere mortals. There was nothing about him having some particular skill in that ward or it being special, it just happened to be something he knew for the sake of travel that plenty of others knew.

>>152908592
where can I find these profiles online for other servants?

>>152908692
>Games like Mass Effect have great story-telling
>he Mass Effect games have some of the best storytelling in video games
Is this the average taste of FGOshitters?

Even then, the whole point of those games is that your choices affect the outcome of various situations. And they actually do force a character on Shepard in the godawful ME3.
In FGO you change nothing, your role could've been fulfilled by literally any other human if they had survived the explosion at Chaldea. You are nothing. And the only reason the story was lowered to having such a blank character, is because waifu phone games need a stand-in for the player so they can fill like all the time they spent rolling for waifus was somehow worth something, because then you get to hear them tell "you" the same shit you could've heard them say if you just looked their MyRoom lines online.
It was a mistake to waste what could've been a good story on a mobage, but that's just how jewish Type-Moon is now.

>>152908786
Just google Strange Fake pdf, fag. It's on tumblr as I remember. High res pics were deleted from beast lair

>>152900303
And solely so he can explain how it works. Every. Single. Time. Just to fuck with you.

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>all those hidden NP
Impressive for Hassan

>>152900412
Im pretty sure that sparks liner high end is also not a "bad" end.

>>152908781
You... you realize that True Assassin is a fellow heroic spirit, right? He's not a normal human defending against a heroic spirit, this situation was 1000 times less convuluted than all the ones you listed.
From what sort of asshole are you pulling the fact that "several other people" have wind protection as strong as Hassan's.
Not that it even matters. Blocking Invisible Air is not nearly on the level of defeating Gate of Babylon, taking down Saber or getting through Godhand, so you wouldn't need a method nearly as strong. It's about the same as blocking one of Gil's weapons, or parrying Rider's strikes like Shirou does in UBW. It's not something any human could do, but plenty of modern mages could block Invisible Air. You are seriously overrating a minor Noble Phantasm. Its rating is C I believe, the same as fucking Kanshou and Bakuya.

>>152904109
>>152904244
>>152904336
>>152904587
>>152904653
>>152904692
>>152904762
Let's be real here, Gil's true alignment is Chaotic Selfish. He only does good things when they benefit him.

>>152908756
Uhhh, no. She gutted him easily at the start of Fate, Archer straight up said he wasn't a match for her in UBW, and she said she'd be able to corner him on the rooftop in HA were she not defending Shirou. Hell, Archer's only victory against throughout the VNs was Caster. The guy is versatile but not nearly as OP as some like to suggest.

>>152909118
That's objectively wrong, he genuinely wants what he considers best for humanity (being ruled by him). Narcissistic and self-centered maybe (and with good reason) but not selfish.

>>152909219
All of which is contradicted by Sparks Liner High and the fact that Archer never tried to win the grail war at any point

What's life like for a magus killer in the fateverse?

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>>152909270
Ask Kerry.

>>152908892
Well, considering the ME trilogy is one of the highest rated video game series to come out in recent memory, yes it does have some of the best story telling in video games. You probably just got on the hate bandwagon after ME3's ending and decided it retroactively made the entire trilogy suck.

As for FGO, I don't particularly care for it one way or another. You seem so determined to hate FGO that everyone who doesn't also hate it is automatically a fan of it. I don't play any of the new Fate stuff, I just read the summaries online, but none of it seems any more or less important than any other part of the Fate universe. Considering that most of your comments about it involve "blank slate MC" and "waifu simulator" it just seems like you don't like the medium rather than the story.

>>152909264
HF Shirou=/= Archer, Saber Alter still had some lingering sentiment and wasn't going for an immediate kill, and she didn't die.

>Archer never tried to win the grail war at any point

But he did try to kill Saber, Berserker, False Assassin, Lancer, and Rider and didn't beat any of them

>>152909270
Looks like much easier than normal killer
>no problems with police
>most mages live in stoneage and don't cares about modern things. EZ targets
>Contender + kigen is OP

>>152909339
>popularity = great story-telling
You heard it here, folks. SAO and Attack on Titan are great story-telling. 11/10 stories.

Explain to me what is wrong with becoming a Hero of Justice? Save the majority by eliminating a minority?

Some people got to die for the greater good. Isn't happiness subjective?

>>152909390
He beat Berserker 7 times which requires 7 different ways to kill him actually

The scene in HA shows what he'd actually do if he wanted to win the war

>>152909252
>what he considers best for humanity
What he considers best and what is actually best are two very different things. The human race has grown to the point where a huge chunk of the population being wiped out would be a very bad thing. It's only in his self-centered worldview that what he's doing is good. Like I said, he's Chaotic Selfish.

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>three NP
It's not A.U.O rlght?

>>152909339
>highest rated = good story
Oh I am laghing. Are you actually 14?
ME is liked for its characters and worldbuilding. Also 3 made the gameplay quite fun. That's it though, the whole thing is about you growing attached to characters and learning their backstories, and that's why it's liked and highly rated. The "main story" in 1 is decent, in 2 it's "average action flick", and in 3 it goes full retard. They're generally good games with OK story, they're not fucking Planescape or Xenogears. It's awful that you'd use ME as an example of "some of the best storytelling in videogames". Self-insert protags can sometimes lead to fun games, not ones with particularly good story.

Of course the medium is easily one of the biggest criticisms against FGO, why shouldn't it be? It's awful and counter-productive to storytelling. And are you seriously arguing that wether the protagonist is a blank slate does NOT affect the story?

>>152899491
This. I'm addicted to it. The more emotionless and deep it is, the better. Kirie is a perfect vessel for it, the Count too.

>>152909548
Enkidu perhaps?

>>152909448
I didn't mention popularity anywhere in my post. But nice try.

>>152909743
That should technically be part of GoB though. And why would it be considered a spoiler? Maybe an upgraded version of it that only works when Enkidu is actually there.

>>152903892
This.

>>152909836
Technically speaking all his weapons would be in GOB. But yeah its most likely something new due to the fucked up nature of the war.

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>>152909836
>>152909743
Yep. Probably new version of Enkidu, because Enkidu himself has hidden NP and looks like both of them are hidden by same shadow.

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>>152909956

>>152909993
Fuck man, I really want a "proper" Fate RPG. just imagine Enkidu, where you could minmax and change stats around at will, even just to execute certain moves.
Atlus pls

>>152909582
There are plenty of reasons why people rate a game highly, and in addition to the other ones you mentioned, story is one that is often cited as well. I picked ME because it's a game that a lot of people are likely to know about, and it is an example of a game with a self-insert that has a good story.

Are you saying that you think that every game in existence where you can roleplay yourself as the protagonist will have a bad story? Because that's pretty narrow-minded.

Blank slate doesn't automatically mean bad story. And even with the gacha it's not like you get the bad end if you fail to roll some servant. Now that would be an example of the medium messing up the story.

It just sounds like all you want is story in book or VN format. You can tell a good story in a video game too.

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>>152899265
The engine in his vocal cords.

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>I get to decide what's canon not the writer/creator of the setting
>I did not understand/like why the creator chose this medium despite it being explained along the way and given a well written epilogue/reason on their blog as soon as the last chapter was released.
>Gilgamesh is anything but chaotic good

How quaint, also there is nothing wrong with being a hero of justice.

>>152910416
Like I said, ME is not highly rated for having a good story, that's not even close to the reasons it stands out. To claim it has "some of the best storytelling in videogames" is ridiculous.
I'm saying it's the general tendency, especially a mobile game like FGO where your "choices" and "role playing" don't actually mean fuck all.
You really don't get it, FGO's medium is the reason that "protagonist" is the blank slate that he is. That's just one way it did fuck up the story.
Of course, but not a mobile game with a self-insert protagonist. Even a console game could've actually been good, since they could've made a protagonist with a personality. But no, they of course went for what makes more money, because that's what they value now more than ever. Modern Nasu is garbage, just accept it.

>>152910790
Visual novels are a dying medium and just because you happen to earn a profit that doesn't make a story bad, if anything it shows that the true main characters Mathew and Roman really did shine along with the large cast of servants which all brought their own personalities to the journey.

>>152911157
A blank slate character is unforgivable cheap shit that should never be in any good story.
The fact that it makes other characters shine because of how awful it is is just hilariously bad more than anything.

>>152910790
Plenty of reviews say that the story in ME is quite good, and that happens to be my own opinion as well. It's also why ME3's ending was so badly received, because people liked and cared about the story and the ending kind of took a dump on that. People wouldn't make such a big deal about the ending to a story if they weren't invested in the story, and they wouldn't be invested in the story if the game only had good gameplay.

Well it looks like we're stuck on the point that being a blank slate means the story will be bad, which I don't agree with at all. Sure, FGO had to have a blank slate as the MC. But that doesn't automatically mean the story sucks. Hell, they even did everything they could to make the MC a non-factor in the story so that it wouldn't affect it. I've heard people say it's a story about the servants, and that's pretty true. They took out all relevant humans aside from you right at the very beginning. All the servants summoned in singularities are summoned by other servants or by the grail without any human masters. Hell at the end it's true that not even Roman was really a human, he was a servant who won the grail war and wished to be one. Even your other helpers are Da Vinci, a servant, and Mashu who is now half-servant as well.

I mean, the minimum amount of humans they could have in the story was literally 1 human, and that's what they did. You are that one human, and the rest of the story is about servants all the way through. I think it's a nice way to make the blank slate MC thing work.

>>152905292

I don't think anyone seriously argues whether she is mostly good or not, but she fucks up hard BECAUSE she obssesses over the same creeds and rules that ultimately hosed Sakura, which is why, while they love each other, there likely always will be that bad bit of history between them. See Hollow, and how Sakura pretty much even at her happiest can't really be comfortable at the Tohsaka manor anymore, since they literally threw out all her old pictures and family memorabilia.

It's that cold, cruel silly part of magi that most argue, not to say Rin is heartless. I mean, she DID kind of sign off on a war where a bunch of unknown magi could go buckwild in a metropolitan area where a ton of norm is still live. Not exactly strange is people raise an eyebrow at her mental processes, and that is only the tip of the iceberg.

>>152911321
Well that's what the chaldea kid's job is, you could make a poor argument on how it's bad in the beginning but it's a necessary part of the development of the story as a whole and it gives the most freedom for further details (servants) without writing yourself into a corner and they eventually towards the end cemented themselves as a person with drive during their final battle.

>>152911321

I wouldn't go that far, but it's the honest to god truth that blank slates are attractive types to use. Regardless of what you may think of fanfiction, there is a reason it thrives.

I mean, Shirou is supposedly a blank slate to a lot of people in the fandom, despite the fact he has his own desires and soul in the VN, painting him as just an empty person is attractive. Because then you can live vicariously through him on the journey discovering who he is.

>>152911326
>>152911484
>>152911586
So you're unironically defending self-insert blank slates because it allows more spotlight on waifus and "it's good in fanfiction".
Like I said, that can lead to a fun experience, but it is NOT the mark of an interesting story if the main character isn't a big part of it. Like everything else in FGO, it just screams "cheap and lazy to make big bucks off of waifufags", becuase that's exactly what it is.
Of course a self-insert is an "attractive choice", of course they chose it to put the spotlight on other things. That doesn't excuse shit, it's a waste of the potential of the 2nd half of the story.
I'm really done arguing if you're so far deluded that you think a featureless self-interest can lead to an interesting narrative. Fun, sure. Engaging, maybe. Appealing to waifufags, 100%. Well written? Fuck no. Fuck FGO.

>>152911818
Well I guess we have to agree to disagree here. Games that feature blank slates can still have good narratives, and I'm sorry that you would dismiss such a large portion of games offhand because of that.

>>152912058
Don't be an idiot, it's not just about being a blank slate, it's about a self-insert that was shoehorned into the story simply because it's a gacha mobage, when having any actual character instead would've easily made it a more complex story. It's disgusting.

>>152912235
>when having any actual character instead would've easily made it a more complex story
You say it's not about being a blank slate, then immediately follow it up by saying that not having a blank slate would be better. Again, it's clear that you don't like blank slates. Your opinion about the story is basically decided from the very beginning.

Again, we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

>>152912444
>shoehorned into the story just because it's a gacha mobage
Did you miss that part, boy?
Whatever really, go back to playing the cancer of Type-Moon. Hope you spend money on it, gotta fund all the TM anime I'm getting to watch thanks to you wasting days on that trash.
If you're not at least gonna do that, do everyone a favor and neck yourself for defending garbage.

>>152912673
How do you shoehorn an MC in? That whole statement means nothing, except that you hate self-inserts and you hate gacha mobages. If it bothers you that much, and you can't accept that other people don't agree with you, maybe you should be the one removing yourself from the world to get away from all of that, because FGO, blank slates, and people with different opinions certainly aren't going to go away for your sake.

>>152913042
Because the MC is unecessary. As you FGOcucks are fond of repeating, the real MC is Mashu or Roman. The story could easily be written around that shell of a "character" that is "you", and nothing major would be lost. He literally exists because of the disgustingly greedy medium, not for the story. That is a flaw, especially compared to all the strongly written MCs Nasu has done so far.
End yourself for being part of the cancer that killed Type-Moon.

>>152909471
Didn't he kill Heracles 6 times? Still impressive though since he did it without ubw.

>>152913528
Yeah. He used UBW in DEEN anime though, and we don't know for sure what happened in the VN.

>>152913377
Well, when a person's argument routinely ends with "kill yourself," you know that person has nothing more useful to say. Maybe Nasu will put out something more to your liking soon, but then again he probably shouldn't reward someone who can't handle it when things don't go his way and tells other people to kill themselves as a result.

>>152913715
>He used UBW in DEEN anime though, and we don't know for sure what happened in the VN.
What we do know is that Ilya is blown away at how strong Archer is. It is also unlikely that he used the strategy of Gil and blade spam Ilya and make Herc block because Archer probably loves his imouto even if he is tsun about it.

>>152913819
Does Archer even recognize her as being his adopted sister? I thought he said the only memories he has of being Shirou are being saved from the 4th war fire by Kiritsugu, having his life saved by Rin, and summoning Saber.

>>152913804
Nasu will unfortunately never do anything good again now that the franchise has been ruined by your garbage tier phone game, you worthless piece of trash.

>>152913956
>Does Archer even recognize her as being his adopted sister? I thought he said the only memories he has of being Shirou are being saved from the 4th war fire by Kiritsugu, having his life saved by Rin, and summoning Saber.
Archer isn't the most reliable source for these sorts of things since he is always playing games. Even if it isn't a memory that returns with him, by the simple fact of him not trying that strategy against Berserker and Tohsaka being worried (which means he probably didn't mention it as an option to her against Berserker), I take that to mean he recognizes her.

>>152913956
Yes. He probably remembered more shit as things went on. He also only said that in UBW, where he barely meets Illya. He definitively remembers her in Fate tho.

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>>152904577
>protects innocent people above all

>>152903578
you know some people are literally born without feeling things like sympathy right?

>>152914335
Risking her life to save Shinji of all people there was unecessary, which just goes to show her kindness.
Sakura was a danger to everyone and a literal puppet to Zouken, she's anything but uninvolved with the War. Even Shirou agrees to kill her in one end. That just falls under Rin's Lawful side.

>>152914480
Shinji was literally threatening to kill the entire town there because he was the grail. Meanwhile, Sakura had done nothing wrong, as Shirou says himself. She certainly wasn't protecting innocents.

>>152903578
Are you retarded? That shit is what makes Kotomine so great.
Without it he is just an edgy priest who wants to destroy the world for no reason at all.

>>152914596
But Shinji is far too incompetent to do anything of value

>>152914596
Well no shit they were gonna stop Shinji from spilling the mud, but in that case killing or saving him accomplished the same thing. Rin went the extra way and risked her life to save him anyway.

>>152914938
And then she went out of her way to state that she'd kill Sakura when she was in the exact same situation.

>>152914335
The difference is that in Shinji's case Rin had a way to both stop Angry Manjew and save Shinji even if its was risky so she took it.
In Sakura's case, Rin didn't know of any way to both save Sakura and stoping the Shadow from killing more people. It was either killing Sakura or allowing more innocents to die.

Are there any instances of an old wise king gilgamesh being summoned? It's the one servant I've been waiting to see.

>>152915039
The shadow hadn't even killed anyone yet at that point, though.

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>>152909471
He's one of the few people even capable of beating Herc more than once or twice thanks to tracing NPs and it's impressive he managed 6-7. Still, he ultimately lost.

As for HA, he just fired warning shots and told the other servants to fuck off, which they did cause they had no interest in resolving the loop. He never directly combated any of them cept saber.

>>152913528
Yes, but pulling out UBW would have been a death sentence. the main reason he lasted so long was he was fighting in the castle, slowing Herc down considerably. Giving him a beeline in an open field would leave him gutted instantly.

>>152913819
Swordspam wouldn't do shit to herc. He most likely had to spam BPs.

>>152913956
Of course

>>152914976
???
There was no clear way to save Sakura other than wait for a miracle to happen. Rin had no way of knowing about Rule Breaker and Shirou didn't bother to tell her.

>>152915101
I forgot in which order the events took place, but anyway my point stands. In one situation Rin had a way to stop the evil monster and save the one who was fused with it and in the other situation she didn't, and no one really did since even Shirou didn't have any sort of plan at that point.

>>152915128
>>152915158
Even leaving Rule Breaker aside, Kotomine had already told them that the way to save Sakura was to keep her alive until the end of the grail war and make a wish. What Rin did was deciding to kill an innocent just because she was too weak to protect her.

>>152915300
Except doing that would lead to many innocents getting killed till the war ended, not to mention how fucking hard to win the damn thing is.
Again, saving Shinji's sorry ass only put Rin in danger while saving Sakura put a lot of people in danger so it's not the same sitution.

>>152915388
She had no idea about the shadow until a few days later, though. Either way, the point is moot, because UBW shows that the grail will take over someone else if its vessel is killed. Killing Sakura wouldn't change a thing in the end, because somebody else would become the shadow.

>>152915300
You can't "protect" someone who can be used by the enemy at any second.
And regardless, you're ignoring the fact that Rin does end up agreeing to wait for this miracle from the Grail, letting hundreds die in the meantime, until they learn that the Grail is fucked anyway and Sakura is tied to it. Then she actually has no choice but to kill her, yet even then she hesitates at the last second and lets Sakura stab her instead, because she loves her sister too much.
God, I fucking hate Sakurafags fanning the flames of a fake ass sibling rivalry.

>>152915462
Well, removed in UBW's case, but the point still stands. The grail spontaneously tried to turn Gilgamesh into its vessel once Shinji was gone.

>>152915462
No nigger, Sakura was the only one who could do that Shadow shit.
The Grail will try to take someone else as its vessel if the original vessel dies but that person wouldn't get the same powers as Sakura, otherwise Illya or Irisviel would have used that shit at least once.
The only reason Sakura could do that was because of some inherent trait she had which I already forgot about. The only thing I can remember is that without the Grail supporting her she could train herself to summon one of those giant Shadows but while being plugged to the Grail and its massive mana pool she can take her powers to a whole new level.

>>152915469
>Then she actually has no choice but to kill her
Rule Breaker. Shirou already had the idea, so the issue's all on Rin for refusing to listen to any ideas but killing Sakura.

>>152915579
Nope, the reason Ilya and Irisviel don't have shadows coming from them is because they're homunculi designed specifically to not leak grail mud prematurely. Any human who's a grail vessel will have something that can kill people manifest in some way.

killing is easier and for the greater good
win win ez pz

>>152915648
Again wrong.
A non-homunculus vessel would probably turn into a huge tumor thingy like Shinhi and spill the Grail mud but the Shadows summons are something exclusive to Sakura, a magic of hers powered up by the Grail.
Checking some random pages to refresh my memory, she can summon the Shadows because she has a special affinity to the Imaginary Number Element, the Hollow Element or whatever the fuck that thing is called.

>>152915813
Yes, the nature of how the grail will manifest itself differs depending on the vessel's affinity, but it'll still be something that can kill people.

>>152915840
Yeah, but Sakura's was particularly dangerous, at least compared to Shinji.

>>152915648
Shirou very much did not have any other idea until that point, he only even remembered Rule Breaker at the last second, after Sakura nearly killed Rin.

>>152904680
You read the VN fucking retard