>it's a christmas episode >none are even christians

I've been celebrating Christmas for 30 years now in an atheist family.
I don't see the problem.

>Christmas has been reduced to a consumerist holiday
RIP yule

>>151139724
Blame Coca Cola

>>151139669
>yfw They celebrate the shit out of Christmas in Arab malls. They like giving presents to each other around this time.
>yfw European cities decide not to celebrate as not to offend those people.

>>151139724
Isn't it a celebration of the winter solstice?

>>151139782
I'll get you someday Coca Cola

>>151139783
>A celebration of winter solstice
It is. Christmas is just the Christians compromise with the pagans feasts at the time.
The christmas tree was originally oak, but was changed to evergreen because of its triangular shape as to represent the holy trinity.
I can't exactly remember when the idea of gift giving was implemented, but I'm fairly certain that was during the early 19th century.

Funny how some things mix up when years pass by.

>>151139879
I'd like to add that the 25th of December shifted away from the winter solstice due to calendar reform.

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>>151139669
>implying most people that celebrate christmas are christian

Christmas is about dating, baka gaijin

jesus is literally the worst thing about christmas after the music

>implying Christmas is a religious holiday

>>151140872
Now that I don't work in retail anymore, I like the music again.

Christmas is about fapping your waifu

>>151140892
Paganism is a religion of sorts.

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>>151140872
You talking shit about Christmas music, son?

> people having fun
> how can you have fun, you don't belong to that specific group of people

>>151139669
It should be a New Year episode.

>>151140983
Most people who celebrate Christmas aren't pagans.

>>151141180
According to the readings of of my divining bones, they are though.

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>it's a Christmas episode
>they actually try to shoehorn some bullshit about Jesus/religion in

>its a shitty cartel bait thread where the op pretends to be ignorant of japanese ways

>they're not catholics

What do you do when the next crusade comes?

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>>151139669
>not watching Anime with cute christian girls

>>151141292
Catholics aren't the only Christians in the world, though. In fact, it's only Jehovah's Witnesses for the most part who don't celebrate Christmas.

>>151139669
Dumb Umiposter
Christmas is for KFC

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>it's a halloween episode
>none are even gaelic pagans

>>151141549
You don't need to be pagan for free candy and pranks.

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>it's a Pancake Tuesday episode
>none are even pancakes

>>151141585
Why do you need to be Christian to receive gifts and have a feast?

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>>151139669
>christmas
>not Kurisumasu

do you even anime op?

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>>151139669
>it's a christmas episode
>celebrate it like a muslim

>>151139669
>Christmas
>Part of a religion
Kek

>>151139879
Yeah, from everything I've read, Jesus would have been born in the spring (assuming there was a real person).

>>151144576
>assuming there was a real person
There was. Those Roman records don't lie.

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>Santa is an christian tradition
Woah there anon

>>151140872
Dumb atheist poster.

>>151140892
The church changed Winter Solistice to Christmas.

Taiga is catholic

>>151139879
Christmas is like a dozen european winter holidays and traditions rolled into one with the excuse of Jesus's birthday slapped on top to make it more Christian friendly when trying to convert non-believers.

There are also dozens of different Santa's throughout history depending on the region with the modern iconic image of the bearded jolly old fat man being something popularized by coca cola decades ago that spread everywhere due to global marketing.

>>151139669
>Implying Christmas is about god and not about the fucking toys and shit.

So how are Hatchimals involved with Christmas?

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>>151145014

>>151140872
Grinch please go

>>151139669
who fucking cares?

>>151144657
I've never seen them though

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>>151141299
What is there to life without such joys?

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>It's a Christmas Episode
>Santa actually shows up and does stuff

>>151139669
Who gives a shit about christans

>>151145014
You shouldn't fuck toys, anon.

>>151145651
t. Alberto Barbosa

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>>151140872
>Jesus
>not objectively best Christmas boy
Absolute shit taste

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>>151144986
No shit.
There's a huge difference between Joulupukki and Saint Nicholas for one.

>>151145510
but reputable historians have, and they've studied them. Jesus is a historical figure.

>>151139669
Christmas it´s a consumerist party unrelated with Jesus.
I hate all those useless ideas of fake happiness, trees and lights because "it´s Christmas", i expect millennials kill Christmas in the generation

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>>151144986
The Yule Cat is the best santa.

>>151146046
Reputable historians have also reduced Xerxes' army with which he attacked Greece to a smaller number than the defending Greeks.
Reputable historians have perpetuated the myth that during the middle ages science was taboo.
Reputable historians haven't marked down my birth as a historic event.

>>151146153
>Reputable historians have also reduced Xerxes' army with which he attacked Greece to a smaller number than the defending Greeks.
I'm not familiar with ancient Greece so I don't follow what point you're trying to make

>Reputable historians have perpetuated the myth that during the middle ages science was taboo.
Name one please

>Reputable historians haven't marked down my birth as a historic event.
That's a good thing anon, your life is worthless

>>151141549
>halloween episode

Is that even a thing in anime?

>>151146127
That's a big pussy.

>>151146153
>Reputable historians have perpetuated the myth that during the middle ages science was taboo.
Except no reputable historian would support that view in any way, that's bullshit perpetrated by popular culture and general ignorance. The same people that think Columbus was the first man to ever think the world was round.

>Reputable historians haven't marked down my birth as a historic event.
Why would they?

>>151146420
It flips the script, that pussy eats you.

>>151140872
I agree, heathen supremacy!!!!!!!!!

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>>151146073
>fake happiness

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>>151139669
>none are even christians
It's all right, Kirei will evangelize Japan

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>>151140872
You have to admit, jesus is the greates imaginari friend on this universe. there have been countless wars and shit just because of him.

>>151144657
The Roman census, which is the only reason Mary and Joseph are in Bethlehem is fucking bullshit though.

Also, I like cute Christmas girls doing cute Christmas things, regardless of religion.

>>151141549
I thought Halloween was only an excuse for cosplay lewds and inspiring hentai, like a beach episode but slightly less shit.

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>>151146507

>dad is dead
>dads parents are dead
>no brothers or sisters
>I'm not married or dating
>my grandfather from mothers side is a child molester so I dont want to spend christams with him and my grandmother
>just me and my mom eating christmas dinner together every year

Christmas just makes me more depressed about my life. Wish I could be a 2D girl with a big happy family.

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Okay, since we are talking about Jesus here. Can I ask the Christians here a question? Is Jesus a man who was fathered (in the way that men father children) by god, or was he an aspect of god fragmented from him. Because it really doesn't make sense to me that an omnipotent god could have a son with a child of man the normal way and end up with a human child, and just creating another man like he created Adam doesn't make sense either given the disregard God seemed to show for many of his creations throughout time.

>>151146575
>The Roman census, which is the only reason Mary and Joseph are in Bethlehem is fucking bullshit though.
Apparently their was a prophecy that the messiah would be born in Bethlehem so the church some hundreds of years later had to think of a way for Jesus to be born there rather than his home in Nazareth. A lot of events in Jesus' life are either exaggerated, hard to prove or outright lies made centuries after he died. The only thing historians can agree on was that he existed, he was baptised and was crucified.

>>151146570
People went to war for Hitler, anon. Just because you go to war for someone, doesn't make them great. Not arguing Jesus wasn't great, just saying maybe use a different argument.

>>151146814
> Religions are illogical and dumb.
More news at 11.

>>151140831
i celebrate christmas on the 7th of January.

>>151144765
AWW SHIT NIGGA!

Im from Saaremaa!

>>151146814
IIRC Mary herself wasn't any normal person. The immaculate conception doesn't refer to Mary becoming pregnant with Jesus but rather that Mary herself was specially made to be fit to carry the child of God. So instead of God just impregnating any woman he genetically engineered one then impregnated her.

That's about what I remember anyways.

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>>151139669
>>none are even christians
But they're goyim so it's OK.

>>151146507
>Implying the festiveness that hangs around the holiday isn't mostly a facade

>>151147533
>implying christmas isn't the most wonderful time of the year.

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>>151140892
I still consider it to be one, and hence I've always declined to take part in any Christmas events. Even if it's actually pagan as fuck as pointed out by >>151139879 that only makes it so much worse.

>>151141031
Oh I understand the whole "cheery holiday in the dead of winter" thing, and I begrudge no one of it, I just politely decline to participate in it.

I do love the lawn displays though. There's this one especially beautiful one I would always pass on my way home. I managed to flag down the homeowner as he was leaving to thank him for it.

>>151144657
We don't have the original Roman census records. All we have is a short passage by Josephus, which was probably further exaggerated by overzealous medieval scribes, that basically describes him as one of many self-proclaimed messiahs in Judea.

>>151147342
That's the catholic version. The orthodox replace original sin with death and consider mary normal because she died.

They also don't think miracles need to make any sense whatsoever.

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>>151147640
As someone who doesn't celebrate it it honestly seems horrible. Everyone is stressed out and going crazy, kids throwing shitfits over some meme toy, just a really fucked up time.

I mean, maybe be nice year-round so you don't feel the need to do this horrific overcompensation trainwreck every winter?

>>151147640
That's why suicide rates are highest around Christmas. Everybody wants to die at a time where their last moments are happy.

>>151147814
I just love it so much, I'm wearing a christmas sweater right now.

>>151139669
I'm Jewish and I love christmas.

>>151147910
Because it means an uptrend in sales?

>>151147910
That's because you love getting gifts for free, right?

I felt the same way as a kid

>>151147885
Really? Why?

>>151147910
Do you celebrate it or do you just like mass insanity?

Or do you just like any excuse to get Chinese food?

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>>151147910
Its a shame you can't enjoy the best part of christmas

>>151147910
What do you love about it, exactly? Just the general atmosphere? Or something more pragmatic?

>>151148031
I like getting things that make people smile, I like to bake, I love the cold weather and sitting inside by a warm fire. Getting to see my family I haven't seen all year. It's socially acceptable to drink all day as long as it is in nog/cider/coaco form.

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>>151148037
>anything but roast turkey for Christmas dinner

>>151146814
>Is Jesus a man who was fathered (in the way that men father children) by god, or was he an aspect of god fragmented from him.
Jesus' conception was referred to as an immaculate conception, which basically means that Mary got preggers without having any sex. I think she was still a virgin when she became pregnant with him. God didn't appear in human form and fuck Mary if that's what you're asking. pregnancy was just sort of bestowed upon her.

>it really doesn't make sense to me that an omnipotent god could have a son with a child of man the normal way and end up with a human child
>it really doesn't make sense to me that an omnipotent god could [X]
So you're saying the god who made all creation, from the big bang to black holes, and suns, and galaxies, and organic particles, and water.

You're saying that gifting a baby would be beyond him?

>just creating another man like he created Adam doesn't make sense either given the disregard God seemed to show for many of his creations throughout time.
>disregard
explain further

>>151147929
Yeah, and free shit.
>>151148037
I eat that whenever I want.
You guys are fucking retards.

>>151148096
He's probably one of those "half-Jews" that celebrates Christmas.

>>151148037
Jews traditionally go out for Chinese food on Christmas, actually.

>>151148138
I thought that was just the marketing...

>>151148193
>I eat that whenever I want.
False Jew.
>>151148209
Nope it's great, I love it all.

>>151148158
>not both
>not enjoying the succulent taste of maple ham followed up by a slice of turkey breast bathed in gravy, with a side of stuffing and cheese filled mashed potatoes

>>151148263
Are you British? I could only imagine an Anglo enjoying something so vile.

>>151148291
Italian-Ukranian Canadian.

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>>151148158
Step your game up, homie.

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>>151148193
>a Jew eating ham

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>>151148258
>>151148366
half-jew is right, you guys really are retards desu

>>151148425
How do you be half Jewish? Aint that shit a religion

>>151139669

Christmas was originally pagan. Though I wonder why you, as a christian are complaining, since the moment they put up a Christmas tree they inadvertently unbeknownst to them, accept Christ as their saviour.

>>151148425
Nice damage control.

>>151148172
>You're saying that gifting a baby would be beyond him?
I'm saying that a baby that is a man, would not be the same as a decedent of god. If he is blood of God's blood, then he wouldn't be just a man he would be far mor, and if he is just a man created by God then how is he different than Adam?

>Explain further
Adam and Eve, the first of mankind who were created by god, were cast out of Eden for transgressing against God, God ignored their plight, and the plight of all their children thereafter as punishment for that sin. So why then, if he created another man would his suffering be any different or more redemptive than the collective suffering of all of the children of man throughout the ages? If Jesus were to be an avatar or aspect of god I could understand, but why would another Adam change anything if the first and his spawn didn't achieve redemption?

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>>151148425
Well then half of you shouldn't be eating ham.

>A woman lied so hard about cheating to her retarded man it created a religion.

>>151148474
The phrase I believe the anon was looking for was, "half-assed Jew".

>>151148522
>her son turned out to be karl marx but a giant pussy

>>151148474
It's something kids say when one of their parents is Jewish and they want to be cool like the rest of the Jews.

>>151148491
>damage control
I don't see how pointing out that you're objectively wrong is damage control

>>151148500
>2016
>keeping 2500 year old dietary laws
shiggidy

>>151148551
Jesus was actually probably pretty badass, desu~. This was a man who told his followers to sell their coats if they had to in order to buy a sword. The pacifist pussy stuff was a later addition by whoever the fuck wrote the Gospel of John.

>>151148499
>if he is just a man created by God then how is he different than Adam?
He was different by virtue of his perfection. Adam was born with no moral compass, and even after eating the fruit of knowledge the morality of man wasn't (and still isn't) perfect. Jesus was. Is that what you were asking?

>God ignored their plight, and the plight of all their children thereafter as punishment for that sin.
They weren't ignored. They merely had to atone. God appeared before many other people before Jesus, and helped their plights. Being cast out of the Ggarden of eden wasn't eternal punishment. It's just temperary punishment for all men in exchange for the gift of the fruit of knowledge.

>If Jesus were to be an avatar or aspect of god I could understand, but why would another Adam change anything if the first and his spawn didn't achieve redemption?
Before Jesus was born and died, humans went to pergatory after death, a sort of middle way between heaven and hell, where they waited. Jesus suffered and died to open the gates of heaven for humans once again.

>>151148791
They're seriously letting us use emoji for names now?

>>151148577
I bet you eat shellfish too.

>>151148837
very little of UTF-8 is excluded from posts. Only some zero width characters and the non-header space to stop triforcing.

>>151139669

>It's a Shinto new years episode
>non are even practicing Shintoists

>>151148874
Could you imagine life without eating shellfish? I know they're giant bugs but goddamn they taste good...

>>151148915
r-right...

>>151148918
Isn't Shinto more of a cultural thing than a religion by this point?

>>151148791
>Jesus was created for perfect morality in men
If Jesus's morality was perfect, then how come some of what he preached to the imperfect men was contrary to Gods original judgement of them?

>The original sin's punishment was not eternal
But if that is so, why was Jesus' birth and death required for that atonement? Wouldn't God have a better way of letting his creation know when they had finally atoned for their sins than to create a messenger who shared his blood to go and die? Why not use one of his divine messengers as he had in the past if all he wanted to do was instruct men in the new ways?

>Before Jesus was born and died, humans went to pergatory after death, a sort of middle way between heaven and hell, where they waited. Jesus suffered and died to open the gates of heaven for humans once again.
Okay, but again I don't understand how Jesus' lineage plays into this. Like why does he have that power, or why was his death required if he was only granted that ability by God in the first place.

>>151148918
>Abrahamic retard

>>151140872
Heretic Scum! You shall feel the power of God in this life and in the afterlife !

>>151148957
I thought it was always a "cultural thing" (a small scale religion based mostly on animism) and only grew to become a semi-organized practicing religion later on when it was tied into the throne and expansion of the empire. I am likely wrong because I'm just going off of what little I recall from a textbook I read that glossed over the subject, but that is what I thought.

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>>151139669
Who cares, Christianity is nothing but a joke anyway.

>>151149307
>some of what he preached to the imperfect men was contrary to Gods original judgement of them?
please give a specific example

>But if that is so, why was Jesus' birth and death required for that atonement? Wouldn't God have a better way of letting his creation know when they had finally atoned for their sins than to create a messenger who shared his blood to go and die?
The line usually goes something along the lines of 'God so loved us that he gave his only begotten son'. It wouldn't mean very much if God's son didn't die

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>>151139669
>it's christians claim another pagan's cultural thing episode

>>151149340
>40kiddy misunderstands what heresy is yet again
What anon said is blasphemy, not heresy, fag.

>>151149638
Disrespecting the name of Jesus Christ, our lord, is a heresy.

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>>151149638
Blasphemy said with genuine meaning is also a form of heresy.

>>151149535
just wait, soon they're gonna steal yulegoat as well

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>>151149713
No, it's a blaspheme. Heresy is a disagreement or a view point within a religion that goes against the norm and is considered to be sinful.
Muslims are heathens/infidels.
Cathars are heretics.
Get your terminology right before you try to go on crusade.

>>151149715
It depends on who's saying it and the context.

>>151149715
Heresy is not saying things against the church, is holding a belief consistent with core beliefs of the church, but having an interpretation that is against the official doctrine in a relatively serious manner. Heretics can only be believers of a faith.

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>>151149812

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>>151149812
If he's not saying it just for shock value, then it's also heresy. He's describing Jesus as bad. Since Jesus is God in orthodox Christianity, and God is canonically good, describing Jesus as bad is a heretical statement.

>>151149812
Disagreeing with the honour of Jesus Christ is heresy.

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>>151139669
>You have to be a Christian to celebrate dankmas

>christians making up fancy words to throw at everyone that calls them out on their bullshit and then argue amongst each other what these different words actually mean
The muslims can't take over fast enough.

>>151149946
True. Though, if someone who's not a Christian says that Jesus/God is bad, is it still heresy? Can heresy only originate within the confines of the religion?

>>151150004
I'm not even a Christian I'm just sick of crusaderfags and warhammer kiddies screaming about their epic heresy meme

>>151150004
This.
Can't wait for christianity paid their sin for what they did to pagan and Rome
Praise Jupiter

>>151150133
If one is not a member of the religion, that makes them an infidel, not a heretic.

Also, I'm Jewish and have never played WH40k, but I still like the meme.

Christmas in Japan is pretty much entirely commercial and just for the fuck of it. Nothing to do with the religion.

>>151150189
In which case, assuming >>151140872 is not a Christian, I was right in saying that it wasn't heresy.

>>151150004
>The muslims can't take over fast enough.
The first thing they are going to destroy are the jews though.

>>151150449

Good.

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>>151139669
>thinking Christmas is Christian anymore
It's a Jewish holiday now.

>>151150302
I was assuming >>151140872 is Christian and >>151150004 / >>151150489 is an atheist /pol/fag who happens to admire Islam just as Adolf did.

>>151150189
Jews are heretics, though, since they reject the Messiah.

>>151150167
>what they did to pagan and Rome
Did what?
Catholicism is the best compromise between pagan shit and Christianity.

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>all this humbuggery

I'm disappointed in you /a/. I thought you understood the Christmas spirit.

>>151150730
Well Christians were originally Jewish heretics so we're even.

>>151150730

You need to look up the definition of the word heresy, anon. Heretics are members of a religion who practice it in ways that differ from the generally accepted ways of the religion. Jews are not Christians so they cannot be heretics. Because Jews practice a different religion, they are considered infidels.

>>151150831
Christians are the true Jews who accepted the Messiah and ascended to the next level. The so called 'Jews' who're around these days are nothing but heretics who failed to take this critical step.

>>151150167
>what they did to pagan and Rome
You mean how most Romans converted without any coercion and under threat of being killed for practicing an illegal religion? Constantine may have made Christianity the official religion but the people converted on their own. Only pagans that were forcibly converted were slavshits.

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>>151150810
Heretics don't know about Christmas spirit..

>>151151070
This spirit you talk about, is it malevolent? Is that why you ward your houses with bright lights, to drive off this spirit?

>>151151147
Mehmet my son.

>>151139879
Gift giving goes back to Saturnalia.

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>>151139669

>MELLY KOLISSU-MASSU!

t. ISLAND SHINTO PAGANS

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>>151139669
Soon™

>>151139669
Just like every Christmas special in the US.

>implying Christmas is even about religion at this point

>>151139669

>christmas

I only like the food, but i just ignore all those consumerist.

"Muh Jesus" He born in March
"Muh religion " I am a atheist millennial, i dont care about sky people.

>>151153646
>i dont care about sky people
As a Gnostic atheist, I would like to say on behalf of unbelievers everywhere, please stop using this phrase. It makes us all look like massive reddit fedora tippers.

>>151141549
>comparing Halloween to Christmas

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Please don't forget the reason for the season, /a/.

>>151153863
Once again Japan outshines the west

>>151154312

How dumb do you have to be to not know the meaning of Christmas? The meaning is in the word itself.

>>151150167
But it was the Roman emperor himself (Constantine) who established Christianity as a religion. Justinian was just the last nail in the coffin for pagan and roman religions.

Still, praise Jupiter.

>>151153798
>gnostic atheist

That's quite literally impossible. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're misunderstanding at least one of those words.

>>151148474
>Aint that shit a religion
And your mother needs to be a Jew for you to be accepted in the community.

MODS

>>151154805
Using Gnostic in the sense of the root word's general meaning of "to be able to know", as opposed to agnostic "to not be able to know" not in the sense of the Gnostic religious traditions.

>>151155032

How is it possible to "know" that no Gods exist?

>>151155032
Either way, it doesn't make sense. There is no possible way to know that something doesn't exist. That claim is logically fallacious.

>>151155061
In the way that any man can truly "know" anything, we believe and assert it to be true. The same way someone who is a gnostic theist "knows" god to be real.

>>151155083
When you get down to it I don't believe there is any way to truly know anything so I'm speaking in subjective terms. But let's try not get into that can of worms if at all possible.

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Christmas soon.
What do you wish for?

>>151155232
Then you are by definition an agnostic atheist. You don't know that there is no God, but you believe that there is no God. Gnostic atheism is not a thing.

>>151155232
>In the way that any man can truly "know" anything, we believe and assert it to be true.

Belief is different from knowledge, anon. You're just claiming that you believe there are no Gods and that because you believe it you know it. That's retarded.

>>151155254
I want to become anime

>>151155254
[Click here to read my full blog.]

>>151155254
Better moderation on /a/.

>>151155728
Do you apply for janitarionship every time?

>>151155282
>Then you are by definition an agnostic atheist
Actually I am, I said gnostic athiest mostly to add extra emphasis to the original point, of the unacceptability of that other anon's behavior


> Gnostic atheism is not a thing.
Then why is gnostic theism a thing? If one can claim to know that god is real, why can no one claim to know he is not? Neither is supported by any one logic system, so don't pretend that it's a problem of one being something to be proven and the other disprove since we are not working within the confines of a structured system but with a claim of knowledge itself.


>>151155283
I believe it to be a truth, since I believe it to be the truth, I know it as the truth. It could also be put the other way, I know it to be the truth, and therefore I believe it to be true as well. After all, don't the belief in something's veracity and the knowledge that that is true go hand in hand? Wouldn't it be strange to believe something is untrue while knowing it's truth, or vice versa?

>>151155829
>since I believe it to be the truth, I know it as the truth.
That's not how knowledge works.

>>151155926
Please anon, I already said I really would like to avoid getting into Epistemology bullshit. Suffice it to say I don't think that there is any way to actually justify knowledge without large caveats and assumptions which I do not think in the end are themselves justified for universal application.

>>151156187
>without large caveats and assumptions
Still better than just basing it on your belief.
When you have strictly defined assumptions then you can also strictly define when something is proven wrong.

>>151156284
Why do you consider your axiomatic assumptions right where as mine are counted as wrong?
Is it perhaps because you believe them to be true?

>>151156388
>Why do you consider your axiomatic assumptions right where as mine are counted as wrong?
I don't.
If you have axioms, then you can base something on them. But basing your knowledge on your belief as you did, means you don't have any.

>>151155829
>I believe it to be a truth, since I believe it to be the truth, I know it as the truth.

What the fuck am I reading?

For you to be able to "know" something is true you must be able to prove it.

Knowledge is that which were know; that which has been recorded for history, that which can be proven, etc. Knowledge is that chunk of "truth" that is known to be true.

Belief is that which you, personally, think to be true regardless of evidence. Belief an knowledge often over lap, but belief is not knowledge and knowledge is not belief. You can believe something without evidence but you cannot know something without evidence. Belief sometimes overlaps "truth" but there is no way to know whether what you believe is actually true or not, for if you can prove it then you no longer believe it, you know it. It becomes knowledge.

Belief, knowledge, and truth are quite clearly defined words that have been written about for literally thousands of years. Using one word to mean the other makes you sound like a retard.

It is impossible to know without proof. Because it is impossible to prove a negative (i.e. God does not exist) it is impossible to know a negative. Therefore, being a gnostic atheist is a literal impossibility based on the very definitions of the words.

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Kissing Umi!

>>151156438
>I don't.
But you just said knowledge systems based on axiomatic logic, which is firstly justified on some form of belief, were more valid than my hypothetical belief underpinning alternate assumptions leading to knowledge.

>>151156478
>For you to be able to "know" something is true you must be able to prove it.
Actually, you have to be able to justify it, proof in the sense of logic is different than justification. Justification is essentially a weaker form of proof, but it is still the traditional basis of knowledge.

>Belief is that which you, personally, think to be true regardless of evidence.
I was using belief in a more general sense, for instance, I believe I am experiencing a silly argument on a Mongolian horse bow art forum, I believe this not in spite of evidence, but because of evidence, though ultimately I cannot know if this is objectively true, I can only believe in it and act as if it is true constructing actions based on this framework of beliefs. In this same way all knowledge is essentially a strong belief that is -somehow- justified. Emphasis on somehow since my original point was that if we are working outside a agreed upon construct comprised of logical rules it is possible for someone to have a justified belief (knowledge) that contradicts another's justified belief (knowledge).

>Belief, knowledge, and truth are quite clearly defined words that have been written about for literally thousands of years.
That's untrue though, all of those words as all words have shifting definitions in a living language, excepting perhaps a legal setting you will rarely if ever find words that have a precise static definition for every user.

>>151157284
>But you just said knowledge systems based on axiomatic logic, which is firstly justified on some form of belief, were more valid than my hypothetical belief underpinning alternate assumptions leading to knowledge.
Please rephrase that and don't fuck up the grammar. I'm having difficulty understanding what exactly you are saying.

>>151157444
Yeah sorry about that I write like a spastic let me rephrase that.

You said
>I don't
in response to the post
>Why do you consider your axiomatic assumptions right where as mine are counted as wrong?
I was trying to point out that in your post you claimed that axioms are better than only having belief, however axioms are first principles that are ultimately founded on some form of belief. That being the case I question why the axioms built on belief that you think to be true are more valid than alternative beliefs. Alternate beliefs which may lead to alternative axioms and therefore alternate knowledge.

Is that more clear?

>>151157847
>That being the case I question why the axioms built on belief that you think to be true are more valid than alternative beliefs.
Quite simple:
The axioms are subject to scrutiny. When you know what axioms something is based on, it's easy to test the theory.
You don't need to disprove the final conclusion, just the axioms.

>>151157284

So, let's hear your proof that God or gods do not exist. If you can prove it I'll accept that you are a gnostic atheist and not just a retard who doesn't know what the words mean.

>>151157284
>justified belief (knowledge)

Why do you put knowledge in parentheses there? Justified belief is not knowledge. Knowledge can be proven to be true. Justified belief is still just belief.

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>>151158146
>After all that talk about differing systems of knowledge
>Asks me to prove that I'm a gnostic atheist to him
Anon, please read the spoilered paragraph in this post (>>151155829), we've been talking hypothetically for a while now.

>>151158094
I made a mistake taking over your vocabulary.
Axioms are generally not subject to scrutiny. They are considered self-evident.
An example of an axiom would be "1+1=2".
Stuff that you don't usually go and question.

>>151158320

Ah, so you're just backtracking because you realize how fucking stupid you sounded. Got it.

>>151158277
>Justified belief is not knowledge
But that's essentially the definition of knowledge according to what little I recall of Epistemology.

>>151158392
>Backtracking
But that was my third post in the chain, way before the argument even got lit up, I'm sorry you didn't notice it earlier. I probably shouldn't have spoiled it, but I assumed you'd mouse over it to see what it was.

>>151156526
Umi is not for kissing!

>>151158323
That is true, but I would argue that my point about them being essentially based on innate beliefs of their veracity and self evidence still stands. It is still possible for someone with alternative beliefs in innate truths to end up creating a system of axioms that creates knowledge that is contradictory to another's.

>>151158414

You misremember. Justification and belief are both required for knowledge, but it must also be true. Unless you can prove something true, you cannot say it is knowledge.

So unless you can prove that "God does not exist" is a true statement you cannot count it as knowledge, merely belief.

>>151158754
Sure, but you are moving the goalposts.
This argument started because you said that you don't believe that God exists, and that you therefore know that God doesn't exist.
"God doesn't exist" is a shit assumption to be tested. It is also not self evident in any way.

>>151158822
Oh, okay, my bad.

>>151158842
I was under the impression the argument was "a Gnostic atheist cannot exist", I was attempting to prove it was indeed possible for someone to "know" god doesn't exist if we disregard working from common ground or assumptions.

>>151158990
>I was under the impression the argument was "a Gnostic atheist cannot exist"
See >>151155926. That's where the quote chain would lead you, if you paid attention.

>>151150887
You literally changed the tenants of the religion because of some dead guy on a stick who was, most likely, trying to help clarify his own religion, not start a new one. Christianity basically started as heresy piled upon heresy which eventually broke free of its Jewish moorings when the weight of them became too great.

>>151158842
I usually leave it as this: I have no rational evidence to indicate God exists, but I choose to be illogical and believe He does exist. That's really all there is to it. To paraphrase Thomas Paine, you can't have a meaningful discussion when one of the participants has thrown logic out the window.

>>151159184
>you can't have a meaningful discussion when one of the participants has thrown logic out the window.
I've tried, Cleverbot, oh how I've tried.

>>151159051
Okay, but if that's the argument isn't it still satisfied by the point made 2 posts ago? That point being the one about the possibly of faulty (from our point of view) axioms based on belief which are then used to justify knowledge. One could even put it crudely, that the belief of the truth of something can lead to creation of knowledge reliant on that belief.

>>151144657
Jesus the man existed, there is no discussion there, Jesus the son of god no, big difference

>>151140872
Hey, i'm atheist, but i like fucking Skillet, not all christhian music is bad

>>151158754
>>151158822
>>151158842
>>151158990
>>151159051
>>151159290
I sugget you all read up on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionistic_logic because what you are trying to do here is basically that, but you're going in circles because you're trying to use classical logic to do it.

>>151159361
Ups, i mistaken christians in general, not xmas music, my bad, and yeah, it gets annoying pretty fast

>>151159388

No one is going in circles here. Anon is trying to claim that something can be known without proof, which is factually incorrect.

>>151159290
>That point being the one about the possibly of faulty (from our point of view) axioms based on belief which are then used to justify knowledge.
Axioms don't work in this context.
Assumptions do, and assumptions have to stand up to scrutiny.

>>151159184
Holy shit. Derp Commander the communist is also a jew.

The memes write themselves.

>>151159444
The problem is that nothing can be proven 100 percent except for the fact that you yourself exist.

>>151159705

I suggest you do a little more reading than just the wikipedia page on Nihilism before you go spouting stupid shit like this.

>>151159754
I suggest you read for about more than 2 seconds on philosophy before you go spouting stupid shit like this.

>>151159705
But there are differences in quality of evidence for different things.
Stop being so infantile.

>>151159792

Nigger, please. If you're not even willing to admit that anything can be proven then all discussion of everything is utterly pointless. Philosophy assumes that reality is real for the sake of discussion; if you're not even willing to concede that much then just fuck off already.

So, real talk for a second.

What's the best Christmas episode out there?

Toradora need not apply.

>>151159909
Prove your mom is real.

>>151159948
Can confirm. I fucked her last night.

>>151159948

>hurr your mom

I think you need to spend some time in your room reflecting on your actions, young man.

>>151159705
>except for the fact that you yourself exist.
>Implying that can be proven
Don't be stupid.

>>151159991
>Mentioning a mother must mean it's some stupid joke.
I'm trying to show that you can't prove some that close to your life exists with 100 percent certainty.

>>151160048
I think therefore I am.

>>151160058
>I think therefore I am.

Maybe you only think you am, but you actually aren't.

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>>151139669
>christmas episode
>the characters don't fuck like they are supposed to following the japanese tradition

>>151160084
That's thinking.

>>151160058
Prove you think. Protip, you can't.

>Inb4 but I think I think
Maybe you only have the appearance of thinking you think, but are actually inanimate and static, or entirely transient and all of your existence is eternity in a single moment with no future or past.

>>151160251
>Maybe you only have the appearance of thinking you think, but are actually inanimate and static, or entirely transient and all of your existence is eternity in a single moment with no future or past.
I would be observing that, which is thinking.

My life may be false, but I am thinking.

>>151160304
Except you might not be thinking, perhaps it is part of the illusion, the inanimate object that is you appearing as a system itself appearing be contemplating the fact that you may or may not be thinking, when the thing that is you is not thinking at all.

>>151160304

It's merely the illusion of thinking. "you" are nothing more than a random occurrence that exists for merely an instant and are annihilated by the same chaotic forces afterwards. All memories, all experiences, all illusions of thought are just a random bit of chaos that only seem like "you". "You" don't exist. "You" don't think; you have never and will never even have time for such a thing.