Super Saiyan = 50x base Ascended Super Saiyan = 100x base (slight

>Does these

>>149850943
Is there something wrong with my grammar?

>>149850943 Nothing to say huh?

>>149851020
Don't get upset.

>>149851025
Well, answer me. What do you mean with >Does these ?

>>149851062
Figure it out.

>>149850991
It should have been "Do these" but that's beside the point; I'd say your numbers make sense, but what about SS4?

>>149851091
Wow, didn't know it was that easy to make stupid people mad.

>>149851078
For Super Saiyan 4 I'll probably with the classic Super Saiyan 3 x10. So in other words: Super Saiyan 4 = 4000x base. Do you agree?

>>149851078
Wow, that's hard to say honestly. I consider GT an alternate continuity. Calling it non-canon seems unusual now that there are other universes in the Super anime/manga, and alternate-timelines are already canon.

I'm curious to hear what the numbers are for SSJ4 as well now that you brought it up.

>>149851123
Hello there new anon. Do you like my multipliers?

>>149851120
I dunno about that, SS4 being 4000 means it's just 6000 below being capable of fighting gods, even though Goku still had trouble with Baby in that form; I'd say it's probably 1000 at most, maybe Gogeta SS4 could be 5000ish.

>implying it's as simple as a static multiplier

The boost for super saiyan could be something far more complicated. Such as:

base_power_level + 147000000 * (base_power_level / 3000000) ^ 0.25

Here is what this comes out to at different power levels:
>If base power @ 3 million. SSj power @ 150 million.
>if base power @ 25 million. SSj power @ 253 million.
>if base power @ 150 million. SSj power @ 394 million.
>if base power @ 500 million. SSj power @ 928 million.

>>149851195
Eh, I'll take the multiplier theory; it's best to keep headcanon simple.

>>149850904
Power levels are bullshit

I'd just like to point out that those numbers are made up bullshit and you're a retard. Stop reading the "guidebooks" and start reading the manga.

>>149851308
IT'S JAPANESE YOU BAKA GUY JEAN!

>>149850904
SSJ1 = 50 x base
SSJ2 = 100 x base
SSJ3 = 300 x base.
SSJ forms have hard multiplier limits. No amount of training will give them new mulitplier bases.
Which is why they all seek to ascend to new levels. Each new level has a new hard multiplier limit and they don't have to use techniques like ascension, ultra, and pure mastery to get new levels of power and use out of them.
The multiplier that accompanies SSJ2 makes even the smallest use of ki ten times more effective then mastered ssj1 with ascension or ultra used to increase ki and strength output.

Ascended and ultra saiyajin are litterally them increasing the power of their base + learning how to manipulate the ability to push ki into their bodies to increase their base strength.

Perfected is simply them learning how to stay in SSJ1 form for long periods of time and almost completely eliminating how draining and tiring the ki use is.

SSJ God have no idea and you might be right. SSJ Blue however is not as strong as god apparently and has far more weaknesses.

>>149851307
Toriyama himself stated all of those numbers. Except for god.
That's pure speculation at this point.

How is it that Freiza is casually blow up planets like Earth yet when these guys who are 100000000 times stronger then Freiza fight they barely manage to destroy a building or two. I get that they are trying to limit the damage but it just seems dumb.

>>149851195
It is as simple as a static multiplier.
Static multiplications of power has been a thing in DB since forever.

>>149851349
Sounds good, but what are your views on temporary fusions (dance) and permanent (earrings)? Just multiplying the bases used in the fusion by each other?

>>149851307
>STOP HAVING FUN

Nah

>>149851383
Ki can be harnessed and used in many different ways. It's not just a giant nuclear force that destroys everything no matter what.
It has to be consciously and willfully harnessed and directed.
The amount of people who even know how to create a ki attack or energy attack that can destroy a planet while being below ten million is miniscule.
The amount of people above that and aren't able to live in outer space or survive in the vacume of space are not trying to destroy the planet.

>>149851378
You can't just preface your retarded bullshit with "Toriyama stated" and expect me to believe it. Unlike you, I've actually read Dragon Ball.

>>149850904
Also
Great Ape = 10x base
Golden/Super Saiyan Great Ape = 500x base
Super Saiyan 4 = undefined increase from Golden Great Ape

>>149851383
the only reason the dbz franchise still exists is because there's still the sheer amount of american babbies' first anime retards to exploit. nothing needs to make sense since those faggots will gladly continue to shovel shit in their mouths no matter the reason

>>149851453
Maybe try talking about the plot instead of fucking numbers

>>149851521
You don't like numbers?

>>149850904
toriyama said in an interview once that the 50x multiplier lowers over time, closer to 2x
Basically, the SSJ power ups are breakthroughs
just like how SSG raised his power even after he dropped out of it.

>>149851425
Fusions are just 1+1 combinations unless stated otherwise.

Although the fusion dance seems to have some small inbuilt multiplier because goten and trunks together being able to harm fat buu while in SSJ1 is beyond far fetched. So there has to be some power enhancment of some sort going on there.
Might have something to do with the technique itself being what drives the fusion and thus allows for greater power output.
However it does have the built in 30 minute time limit. ON TOP of the technique burning out if they use a technique that is too powerful and drains the ki pools of both users so they can't maintain the technique for long.
They MIGHT be able to train the technique to last for longer if they use higher level energy techniques like SSJ3 or the Tribeam or a particlarly powerful energy blast if they train for it. But that's a theory that's never been tested or even talked about in canon so it's just complete speculation at this point.

Vegetterot seems to be a straight 1+1 fusion.
It's strength lies in it being a magical fusion that uses external energy to keep it together.
Thus it is or was not supposed to be affected by high level energy attacks and they(singular or plural no matter)were completely tapped out and still remain fused together.
That's a very powerful ability.
However, with it being retconned into being an hour long fusion if you don't do anything to ki intensive or over the top which will shorten it, meaning they gave it fusion dance rules...
The potaro earings are now in all ways inferior to the fusion dance.

The namekian fusion is an whole other beast. We have no idea how fusion works between namekians. Piccolo got markedly stronger after fusing with nail on namek, but it was only enough to get to about...1 million I believe.
We have no idea if it's a straight 1+1 or if it has some kind of SSJ type high multiplicative ability. Which would be rather interesting. What with Guru being a huge ancient namekian.

>>149851485
Are you fucking retarded?
Toriyama himself stated that he wishes that he didn't make SSJ1 a 50x base multiplier and stuck with a 10x multiplier.
There is tons of stuff outright stating what the multiplier is and all of it is word of god.

You show me one fucking single solitary piece of evidence that states that Toriyama outright says anything posted is wrong or corrects it.

You do that and I will actually think about what you said. Till then you're a fucking retard who knows fuck all about fuck all and is being a faggot.

>>149851521
Without those numbers the plot means nothing and the entire thing devolves into sillyness.
Go watch Super if you want DEEP PLOT based on fuck all.

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now where you place this transformation?

>>149851496
Super is outright destroying the franchise in the west.
Not even Funi wants to touch that shit, and absolutely no one is in a hurry to get it.

>>149851739
backin you up with the interview
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/seg-story-volume-truth-about-dragon-ball/

When Goku first went into God form, he was so surprised at the speed increase that he flew about 1 kilometer past Beerus. If we go By that Super Saiyan 3 = 400x base, that tells me that he got OVER 10x stronger than he's ever been before.

>>149851764
what trunks has is the true super saiyin god transformation
it was said that only gods were allowed to eat the fruit from the tree of might because it costs the life of an entire planet to make
basicly the ki of a planet, trunks became a god as soon as he took in the spirit energy in the last episode

>>149851764
Personally I see Future Trunks' (asspull but badass) new form as a Pseudo-Super Saiyan God; so in other words we're probably looking at a SSJG/2 a.k.a 5000x base

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and what about ssjr?

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>>149851764

toei mary-sue asspull-bullshit.

this is what happens when you let autists and ten-year-olds write the story for you.

>because his power is maximum

>>149851877
its the super saiyin verison of the red ssg

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>>149851850

>using non-canon-films to justify this bullshit

>>149851877
I have no fucking idea. But according to the Daizenshu: "Super Saiyan Rose is a Super Saiyan but with God "Ki". So I guess it's power = Stronger than "pre-time chamber" Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta x50...

Them does seem correct

>>149851981
>>them

>>149851764
WE DONT KNOW HOW SSJ FORMS WORK!!!
Is all I can say about it.

If he had the look of a USSJ, all bulky and shit, and they didn't have that pointless confusing blue aura, I'd say he's got some middle ground between ultra saiyajin and ascendant and can handwaive him putting out shitloads of power.

If they didn't show vegeta outright shitting on his ultra saiyajin 2 form before....


Right now this is just some odd mary sue super form that doesn't fit anywhere.
Coudln't they have just shown him getting battle damage and having his fucking stupid scar burned off and jacket lost or something?

Everything about it from why he attained it, to it's look, too it's extraordinarily high power output makes no goddamned sense.

I mean I would have been able to handwaive it if they dropped a few of those trash WHO AM BLACK and travel back and forward through time "LETS TALK TO THE CHILDREN OF THE FUTURE" eps to show goku vegeta and trunks training with whis to get him some god ki or something. But there's nothing.

Nothing about that form makes any sense. It's just a plot convenience.

All of that because they're too fucking cheap to create a new cg trunks or make him go SSJ3.
Worst part is that they'll never ever even attempt to explain what that new form is or even hint as to where it came from.
Or how him going to the past helped them in anyway.

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>>149851186
Where would SSJ Vegetto then be in your opinion?

Baby has access to Vegeta's memories, which should include his experiences as Vegetto since Goku remembered them, and Goku also agreeing with Baby's statement of possessing the greatest Saiyan power. That form is also far from Baby's strongest, since he transforms twice after that, his final form being a Golden Oozaru, which should still retain the 10x multiplier. Super Saiyan 4 Goku obviously beat Baby.

In short:

SS4 Goku (Baby Saga) > Golden Oozaru Baby >* Super Baby 2 > Super Baby 1 > Super Vegetto

SSJ4 is not 10x SSJ 3, otherwise Goku wouldn't have beaten Baby since Oozaru Baby = 10x Final Form Baby who is >>> SSJ3 Goku.

SSJ 4 Goku is at least 20x SSJ 3 Goku

>Gogeta SS4 could be 5000ish

SSJ 4 Gogeta absolutely curbstomps Beerus into the ground.

>>149851953
That picture. Pure gold.

>>149851850
That form happened before the ridiculous spirit bomb sword technique.

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>>149851953

>>149851877
It's just SSJBlue except pink...for some reason. Probably FABULOUS reasons.

So the multiplier might be the same, but because of PURE GOD KI and his body remembering mastered SSJ1 he can maintain that form indefinitely and get instant zenkai boosts.

Which shouldn't put him over goku because zenkai boosts are comparatively minor boosts and require being able to survive near death level ass kickings and beatings to benefit from.

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>>149851799
That seems about right.
But the Blue form is apparently not as powerful as SSG.
And SSG is just regular goku but brimming with pure godki.
What would have happened if he went SSJ while in SSG mode?

>>149852377
Blue is stronger than SSG.

>>149852410
Sauce.

>>149852425
>speedwatching
this is a whole another level, holy shit

>>149852377
It's messing with my head that people still believe that Red is stronger than Blue, one year after it got explained that it's the other way around baka

>>149852449
>>149852531
Sauce, I don't remember this and I've watched every ep and even watched the movies.

Your mistake was trying to make sense of Dragon Ball.

>>149850904
God and blue are not multipliers.
They are ceiling breachers.

In order for the whole god thing to make sense there is an upper limit that they could not surpass.

>>149851764
In the trashcan.

>>149850904
I can't deal with all this autism.

>>149851791
No one took the bait, so I'll just say it:

They're touching it. And they're literally doing it right now. Funimation dub is on its way.

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>>149852587
It is stated multiple times in the Revival of F arc
even in the movie

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>>149850904
>power levels

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What power level do you think would Boros have?
I guess he's stronger than Nappa but weaker than Freeza so maybe a PL of 100k?
Is that fair?

>>149851270
Not canon

>>149850904
why wouldn't they just stop in SS3??
goku looks alpha as fuck and the shows are in it's peak.

>>149854147
Far too high, below 20k.

>>149854147
kind of, DBZ ki blasts have a lot more power than any of his attacks, but physically I would mostly agree

>>149854448
>but physically I would mostly agree
He's nowhere near 100k. Vegeta at a power level of 19k was already threatening to destroy the planet.

>>149853476
That makes fuck sense at all.

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>Piccolo will always be just SLIGHTLY under the bar to be useful
>Tien will never become 'enlightened' through training and gain a transformation that makes his third eye glow, and gives him two extra arms
>Krillin will never gain a similar transformation that makes all the dots on his head glow

>>149850904
What is Ascended Super Saiyan? Isn't that what they called SSJ2 for a while (until Goku shows SSJ3 to Babidi)

>>149855287
He's referencing Vegeta's bulky form (not Trunks' even bigger one), which they thought was the form surpassing SSJ.

>>149855336
Ah right, cheers broseph

>>149850904
Yeah, they sound like autism.

You're not an authority on Dragonball or powerlevels, so your fanfiction-level powerlevel definitions are incorrect no matter what you do.

Go edit a wiki with your bullshit.

>>149854179

Laser cannon

>>149855426
Super Saiyan was always defined as a 50x multiplier, it's not fanfiction. The SSJ2 and 3 numbers are relatively in-line with what's been said in the past as well IIRC. His god number sounds retarded, though.

>>149855627
What's numbers do you think would be more fitting, shitlord?

Isnt SSJ4 considered a limit breaker?

>>149857426
Yes, Super Saiyan 4 is a Limit Breaker because of the fact that it presses the users power to new hights, if there is a Life at Risk need for it. However, even the limit breaking form has its limits, it can only go as far as the user's body is capable.

>>149850904
Gohan is weak

>>149858272
Well no shit sherlock, but not AS weak as most people think.

What's a limit breaker?

>>149850904
>Super Saiyan = 50x base

Goku wasn't even pushing 1m powerlevel before going SSJ.
He was 150m afterwards.
It's mostly just what's necessary.

>>149850904
Your guesses are pointless because unlike DBZ, Super doesn't even try to be consistent with power levels. That's why Goku could trash Trunks at SS3, yet Trunks could fight more or less evenly with Black or Zamasu, who in turn could trash Goku SSB.

Don't even bother.

SSG should be way stronger than Blue and unattainable. Blue should just be an imitation.
Of course that's not how it actually is in the series, but that's how it should be.

>>149859913
So Cyborgs created by a human being stronger than the Emperor of the Galaxy is consistent?

>>149859913
I could not really but it's a cartoon so I'll let it be silly buy Trunks getting super-angry and surprising Black/contending with Zamasu granted there was some explanation for him harnessing a level of God Ki which there won't be.
Him fucking with fused Zamasu was worse.

>>149859968

This.

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>>149859680
>Goku wasn't even pushing 1m powerlevel before going SSJ.
Yes he was.
The Zenkai he got was idiotically huge, he was somewhere close to 3m.

Proof being:
Frieza's second form was at around 1M PL.
Piccolo could smack around Frieza's first form, which would have to put him somewhere between 1.5M-2M.
Healed Goku in base form could deflect attacks piccolo couldn't even see. This means he was over 2M, and going by the official numbers 3M is reasonable. Since Frieza's final PL was 120M, 3M means at Kaioken 20x Goku had 60M, enough to match Frieza at 50% power (which happened, exactly). Since super saiyan is 50x, Goku's final SS power would be 150M, enough to smack frieza around.

The big problem was the size of Goku's Zenkai (33 fucking times his previous powerlevel), but the powerlevel itself was more or less correct.

>>149859993
It's silly, but it's consistent, yes, because they were introduced as more powerful characters.
You're mixing up stupidity with consistency.

>>149851603

Can anyone confirm? This would make a lot of sense.

>>149859993
You can call that stupid, I won't disagree. But you're complaining about the writing, not powerlevel consistency. And these same humans built fucking time machines. Human science is ridiculous.

>>149860083
>>149860050
Goku SS3 trashed SS2 Trunks, but Trunks was fighting Black and Zamasu with a new form.

>>149860143
You're talking about Super, which is idiotically inconsistent. I'm only defending DB/Z for being consistent.

Pay attention.

>>149860143
And that new form was massive enough to constitute a jump from SSJ2, PAST SSJ3, and into SSB+ territories, without any training to achieve Godly Ki, that Goku and Vegeta underwent by the tutelage of an angel?
DB has some silly power-jumps, but that wasn't even a zenkai, and it had no foundation in the plot.

>>149860185
Not only that, Trunks was fighting Black and Zamasu without the form and keeping up on the first skirmish in the future.

He got hit by the same attack that wrecked SSB goku, while he was only a SS2, and didn't receive greater injuries.

>>149860185
>And that new form was massive enough to constitute a jump from SSJ2, PAST SSJ3, and into SSB+ territories, without any training to achieve Godly Ki, that Goku and Vegeta underwent by the tutelage of an angel?
You're literally retarded.

Trunks just got a deeper understanding of SSJ2 when he created his ki sword + moral boost from seeing all the people he was fighting for.

He was now strong enough to take attacks from dying Merged Zamasu, but not strong enough to kill Merged Zamasu.

Merged Zamasu says some shit about how Trunks won't get any more help, and that he's a weak mortal who can't do things alone.
Trunks says he's okay with asking for help, and he asks for help.

BOOM, spontaneous spirit bomb.

And then Goku and Vegeta give Trunks their own ki, their godly beyond-SSB ki (remember, if you achieve SSB, that means you absorbed the strength of SSG into your baseform).

It was more powerful than SSB, but it wasn't a jump. Because it wasn't Trunks' own power.

If Yamcha had been there, Goku and Vegeta could have given Yamcha their ki, and Yamcha would have ripped Merged Zamasu in two with a genki dama wolf fist.

>>149853379
Don't tell these idiots that, they think the series is supposed to make sense.

>>149860344
I wasn't referencing his attacking Merged Zamasu, which I can somewhat more-so buy, due to him being powered up by Goku and Vegeta, though not really since they were all kinds of fucked up.
I was making note that, before that, how he was able to leap from SSJ2, albeit a perfected one, all the way up past SSB levels, before he began receiving power.
Also, him being able to form an SB at all is stupid.
You really can't defend it on any level, the writing was just trash.

>>149860344
You're ignoring the fact that his new form let him face un-merged Zamasu/Black which was wrecking SSB goku, and even before his new form he was fighting them relatively evenly at times.

The ending was nonsense, but not moreso than everything previously.

That said:
>Doing a Genki dama by instinct, and doing it better because he didn't even have to stop and charge it.
He basically did a perfected no weakness Genkidama. Free Ki from the whole universe and he doesn't even have to charge up his attack. What a fucking joke.

>>149860388
Dragon Ball did mostly make sense, not that Superfags would know since all they know about Dragon Ball they watched in the Abridged Series.

>>149860344
>trying to defend the shit-show of DBS FT Arc's ending
>"a deeper understanding and moral boost"

Trunks the hedgehog is shit, fuck off.

>>149860506
>dragon ball did mostly make sense
Because Dragon Ball didn't involve power levels.

>>149860388
DB was fine with it, DBZ was golden in the Saiyan/Frieza arc, kept it somewhat consistent, but played it a little loose afterwards.
DBS has gone far, FAR more retarded than anything before it, even GT. If you disagree, you should probably watch something other than DBS, you might actually like DB as a whole.

>>149850904
power levels stopped being a think after frieza saga.

stop being autistic about it.

>>149860548
Yes it did by the end of the pickle saga, and the whole manga is called Dragon Ball.
The powerlevels in DBZ, even though sometimes they got silly high, were always mostly consistent. Not perfect, but rock fucking solid compared to DBS.

>>149860445
>I was making note that, before that, how he was able to leap from SSJ2, albeit a perfected one, all the way up past SSB levels, before he began receiving power.
Well, he is a half-saiyan. Who had trained with Vegeta - probably the first training he had with someone since Future Gohan died. He probably had a lot of untapped potential. I dunno, like in an RPG where you can only level up when you go to sleep? Maybe he just "saved up" a huge amount of XP points, and he only was able to cash them in after training with Vegeta?

>>149859999
Not only that, but it could've been something Goku worked toward throughout the entire Super series, ending with one climactic clash with Beerus as he surpasses him and attains the power on his own. But fuck me.

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>>149860598
>The powerlevels in DBZ, even though sometimes they got silly high, were always mostly consistent.

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>>149860607
>Well, he is a half-saiyan. Who had trained with Vegeta - probably the first training he had with someone since Future Gohan died. He probably had a lot of untapped potential. I dunno, like in an RPG where you can only level up when you go to sleep? Maybe he just "saved up" a huge amount of XP points, and he only was able to cash them in after training with Vegeta?

Your brain is full of fuck, but bless you for trying to rationalize Toei.

>>149860548
It did but they weren't called power levels.
The scaling in dragon ball was just as stupid.
Piccolo Daimao was set up to be the strongest force of evil the world had ever seen, that the strongest warriors of the entire world had fallen to him. Goku & later his friends surpass him no problem. Then Goku and Piccolo Daimao's son go far beyond that level even though there had never been anyone stronger in history before that.

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>>149860654
Nice meme arrows, but that doesn't make it untrue.

>>149860143
And what does that have to do with Gero being smart and capable enough to create the Androids through science?

>>149860612
Fuck off, that sounds retarded as fuck.

>and then goku becomes le god of destroy the end

>>149859968
>>149860612

I've been saying this shit. I feel it undermines BoG to just have Goku surpass literal God Mode just because.
It throws Beerus' power-level in the air, devalues Godhood in general, that ANYONE can touch them, and all that aside, SSJG looks WAY cooler than SSB.

>>149860506
Zfags are the ones who like abridged. Just face it, Dragon Ball had Goku put a rabbit on the moon with his staff, a rice cooker that acted as a vessel for sealing away a demon, animal people and a device that can somehow pinpoint the Dragon Balls. It's as nonsensical as it gets and you not realizing that only proves you started off with Z and took everything to face value. Toriyama makes things up as he goes along and it's not uncommon that a new threat is somehow stronger the last. Dragon Ball didn't make this up, it's a common theme in all action comics and manga.

tl;dr either go with the flow and look forward to the new material or fuck off. Stop making more work for yourselves.

>>149855627
No matter what you say, the entire concept of making up powerlevels is autism.

it's bullshit even when Toriyama does it, why should anyone care about some kissless virgin theorycrafting bullshit?

>>149860677
>Piccolo Daimao was set up to be the strongest force of evil the world had ever seen, that the strongest warriors of the entire world had fallen to him. Goku & later his friends surpass him no problem. Then Goku and Piccolo Daimao's son go far beyond that level even though there had never been anyone stronger in history before that.

That's not really stupid, it's just natural progression, because DB operates on a huge power-creep arc by arc.
It happened in a way that made sense, as the characters got stronger over a course of development. Super doesn't do much of that.

>>149859999
>>149860612

Wow, that's fucking retarded.

>>149860702
neither does anything you've said or done.

deal with it autismo

>>149860719
>>149860818

Sure.

>>149860740
>Just face it, Dragon Ball had Goku put a rabbit on the moon with his staff
In the first arc when it was a gag manga.
>rice cooker that acted as a vessel for sealing away a demon
So?
>animal people and a device that can somehow pinpoint the Dragon Balls
So?

You don't understand the difference between internal consistency and fantasy, or you do and are acting willfully stupid to try and prove a point about DBS. Stop tripping over yourself to suck Toei's dick.

>>149860854
Not an argument. ;^)

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>>149860858
>Taking bait
>Not retarded newfag

pick one and only one.

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>>149860895
>So?
>Translation: I can't argue with that, but I don't want to admit I'm wrong.

>>149860895
>In the first arc when it was a gag manga.
It has always been a gag anime.

>vegetable
>carrot
>radish
>fruit
>slug
>bra
>trunks
>bloomers
>rice

And the entire Demon King Piccolo orchestra, fuck listing all that shit.

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>>149860929
It's not an argument because there is nothing to argue. Powerlevels are bullshit.

Do everyone a favor and delete your thread and never post here again. Go post on some Death Battle video back on YouTube like you always do

>>149860977
Argue with what? That dragon ball has fantasy elements? What's your point again? How does dragon ball having fantasy elements mean it has worse internal consistency that DBS?

Are you going to try to make an actual argument sometime or just gonna keep trying and failing to shit on DB so Super doesn't look so bad by comparison?

Power levels stopped mattering after Frieza. There is absolutely no purpose in trying to figure it out.

>>149861008
>Powerlevels are bullshit.

TFS memes. Why am I not surprised?
Try reading dragon ball sometime. You might be surprised.

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>>149860895
>So?

Great argument there, Einstein.You sure showed him who can back their logic up with facts.

>>149861026
You're being retarded. You're ignoring the fact that DB is written as a gag manga first. The internal consistency only exists to the characters in the manga - to us as readers (at least those of us that have read DB, unlike you) it's pretty clear that it's one giant joke parade.

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>>149851186
>I dunno about that, SS4 being 4000 means it's just 6000 below being capable of fighting gods
The only time SS4 has appeared in the same media as godly characters, Xenoverse, they reacted to it much the same way they reacted to SSG. So saying an SS4 can fight with godly chracters isn't that unreasonable an assumption.

>>149861142
GT was a mistake.

>>149861049
The numerical value is pointless, but power levels never stopped mattering in Z, where they were mostly consistent.

Super completely disregards any kind of relative strength it presents from one episode to the next, so in that series they definitely are pointless.

>>149861068
Anon, saying "dragon ball has fantasy elements" does not in any way mean it's not internally consistent especially compared to super.

>>149861078
No anon, DR slump is a gag manga. DB started as a gag manga, and while it retained humor throughout, it got a lot less wacky by the end of the first arc, and continued on that track all the way to the end of Z. Powerlevels and relative strengths were very consistent through the majority of pre-saiyan DB, and they remained consistent throughout DBZ.
The fact that you keep trying to say Super is "just as bad" is proof positive you're only pretending to have read DB to try and give your argument a semblance of weight, yet you're unable to produce real examples that are even half as bad as the complete lack of internal consistency Super has displayed.

Come back when you manage.

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>>149861066
>TFS meme
>because someone said 3 words someone else used, there is no way they could have come up with it themselves

A retarded powerlevel fag would indeed think this because they can't come up with anything wholly original themselves. How'd you know it was a TFS meme?

Why am I not surprised?

>>149861234
Are you going to actually try to argue with logic and examples anytime soon?

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>>149861228
>posting like this

This only happens when someone is wrong and multiple people are telling them but don't want to admit it. Thanks for the laughs.

It's hilarious someone cares about being right about inconsistent details, when most mangaka forget shit all the time.

You are literal Autism. Here's your last (You). I'm sure mommy and daddy are proud that this is what you do all day, and you can't even do that right.

>>149861309
>I continue unable to bring up a real counterargument, so I'm just going to insult them and try to take the moral high ground
Nice save, anon.

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>>149861272
Why should I? Why should anyone?

You deflect every argument as being a meme, like every other self-aggrandizing idiot that makes these asinine threads to try to "Start a discussion".

You didn't come here to have a discussion, you came here to argue and tell everyone else they're wrong, then walk away thinking you proved yourself right because you "invalidated every other argument", because "Everyone on 4chan does nothing but spout memes.

Thanks for the entertainment, that's the only reason people are replying to this shit thread. Buh bye, kid.

Enjoy the rest of your sick day from Middle School.

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>>149861228
>DB started as a gag manga
You're right, those name puns and themes are definitely serious. I loved when Freezer got his dairy force to take out the veggie prince, chestnut and rice. How about carrot's breakdown when the chestnut got cracked by the freezer door? The pinnacle of drama.

And don't get me started on the Cinderella trio, especially the last member. Hoo boy, what a serious character he was.

>>149851195
>implying toriyama put this much thought into the multipliers

>>149861469
>Why should I? Why should anyone
Because that's usually what you do when you're trying to have a discussion anon. You keep saying DB is as inconsistent as super regarding powerlevels, but the best you can do to try and prove it is bring up the fact that it has fantasy elements.

Now you resort to insults and pretending to leave in a huff, that's really cute.

>>149861228
>The fact that you keep trying to say Super is "just as bad" is proof positive you're only pretending to have read DB to try and give your argument a semblance of weight, yet you're unable to produce real examples that are even half as bad as the complete lack of internal consistency Super has displayed.

I actually had been reading DB in the local library for about a year before it even began being aired on TV. Nice try though.

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>>149861507
So the best you can do to argue that DB/Z has no internal consistency is "the names are silly"?

Well anon, at least you tried.

>>149861587
>I actually had been reading DB in the local library for about a year before it even began being aired on TV
Excellent, this means you must be able to support your argument about DB's supposed Super-tier powerlevel inconsistency with abundant examples from the manga.

Go on then, I'm all ears.

>>149860977
>>149861068
Holy fuck, you're dumb.
Not even him, but the fact that you two simpletons can actually string the letters together to form a response is startling, considering the lack of understand in what you're actually (attempting to) debate.
Back to High School, kiddos.

>>149861634
I don't know man, why don't you start by listing some inconsistencies in DBS first?

>>149861661

1) Trunks SS2 was destroyed by Goku SS3. Soon after, he is able to not only hold his own in a fight with enemies that are destroying SSB goku, but also take their attacks like he was equal to goku, and not die immediately. This was BEFORE he got his bullshit semi-blue form.
2) Trunks and Vegeta working together are able to overpower the attacks of the fusion between Black and Zamasu.
3) Goku by himself is able to do the same.

I mean there's a lot more, but let's start with that.

>>149861801
>1) Trunks SS2 was destroyed by Goku SS3.
Pretty sure Trunks SS2 was destroyed by Goku cheating and splicing a microsecond of SSB inbetween his Goku SS3 states.

The manga makes it pretty clear that Goku cheated pretty big.

>>149861859
1) That happened ONLY in the manga
2) Even if we accept it, it doesn't change anything, because it means Trunks as SS2 got destroyed by Goku SSB in an instant, yet he can hold his own agains SSR Black, who is stronger than SSB Goku.

>>149861801
1- Trunks did not hold his own against Zamasu and Black before his new form, he was getting destroyed by Black and only stalled Zamasu who was weaker than SS2 Goku.
2- What about it? SSB Vegeta at this point was WAY stronger than anyone before Merged Zamasu and Super Trunks was keeping up with Black and Zamasu, and it's not like Zamasu was really trying.
3- Goku broke his fucking arms to do it, did you not watch the show?

>>149861801
1) Sparring match. If Gohan is a good indication of half-saiyans, half-saiyans don't do good in sparring, but really shine in life-or-death battles. Regular saiyans just function normal in all fights.
2) Merged Zamasu had infinite power at that time, and didn't bother expending much energy on those mortals crawling around on the ground.
3) Same as my answer at two, except that because Goku did his beam struggle alone, the end result was that he broke his arms, or at least fucked them up really bad. There's a reason why Goku kicked Zamasu with his kaioken. Because he couldn't use his arms anymore.

Vegeta and Goku abused Zamasu's huge ego.

>>149861913
Goku Black makes it pretty clear in the Future that he has no intention of straight up destroying Goku, Vegeta and Trunks.

He wants to torment them, slowly killing them, while refining his power and increasing his strength. Trunks was holding his own against SSR Black, because Goku Black never took mortals seriously.

By the time Goku Black and Zamasu took mortals seriously, Trunks already had the genki dama'd spirit sword up his stomach.

>>149862023
>genki dama'd spirit sword
Not the guy your talking to, but this right here?
If it isn't explained how Trunks knew it in the next episode, then he is 100% right about Super being a pile of inconsistencies held together by string.

>>149861915
>he was getting destroyed by Black
False. Black, who destroyed SSB vegeta in an instant, was getting pushed back by trunks repeatedly as a SS2. Black even hit Goku SSB and Trunks SS2 with the same ki blast, and both received the same injuries.

>2- What about it? SSB Vegeta at this point was WAY stronger than anyone before Merged Zamasu
He was unable to do real damage to Black. Trunks did more damage when he sperged out and blasted him into a mountain. And fusion is an incredible power boost. It allowed Goku and Vegeta to utterly trash Buu, who was much stronger than either. Yet somehow Goku and Vegeta can by themselves return the attacks of a fusion of people of equal ish strength to theirs.
>3- Goku broke his fucking arms to do it, did you not watch the show?
How does that change anything?

>1) Sparring match.
That's a really bad excuse, anon.
>2) Merged Zamasu had infinite power at that time, and didn't bother expending much energy on those mortals crawling around on the ground.
Really? He got humilliated by them twice and was still "holding back"?

>>149862023
>Goku Black makes it pretty clear in the Future that he has no intention of straight up destroying Goku, Vegeta and Trunks.
Anon, he hit Goku and Trunks with the exact same attack, and left both in the same state. This says Trunks was magically of roughly equal power to SSB goku. This is a MASSIVE inconsistency.

I mean I guess if you say everyone's secretly fighting wrong you can excuse the inconsistency, but it's a pretty disingenuous way to do it.

Also,
>Trunks already had the genki dama'd spirit sword up his stomach.
Yeah, the instinctive genki dama that trunks can not only magically use, but also charge while fighting, and with the combined energy of 12 humans and 2 half dead normal state saiyans, he killed a fusion of gods. What great, consistent writing.

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Also I'd like to at least congratulate you people for dropping the whole "DB was just as inconsistent" and shifting to trying to excuse DBS's writing.
I still don't agree with it, but at least you dropped the pretense.

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>God is stronger than Blue
Where is this coming from?

>>149862469
Probably the manga, where Goku uses God to fight Hit where in the Anime he used the Super Kaio Ken.

>>149851290

T. toeifag assblasted over powerlevels

>>149851383
Because toeishit raping the franchise

>>149851410
>since forever

You mean since the guidebooks you fucking idiot. Show me where in the manga it says "SSJ2 is 2000x battle power" or whatever the fuck it is you believe

>>149851521
T. got a meme degree instead of STEM masterrace

Super Saiyan = Whatever the Plot needs it to be
Ascended Super Saiyan =Whatever the Plot needs it to be (slight decrease in speed)
Ultra Super Saiyan = Whatever the Plot needs it to be(major decrease in speed)
Mastered Super Saiyan = Whatever the Plot needs it to be
Super Saiyan 2 = Whatever the Plot needs it to be
Super Saiyan 3 = Whatever the Plot needs it to be
Super Saiyan God =Whatever the Plot needs it to be
SSGSS/Super Saiyan Blue = Whatever the Plot needs it to be

>>149851760
DB got along just fine before numbers were introduced. Super sucking is just Toeishit not giving a single fuck about making sense or consistency. Has nothing to do with numbers.

>>149859968
I thought that's how it was in the movies.

>>149853963
No anon I was at a con literally today and Sean Based Schemmel told us that Funi will NEVER dub Super because it's literally killing DB with it's asspulls

>>149851953
Super isn't canon either so it cancels out

>>149855287
Yes (in both dub and Japanese), but generally it refers to Vegeta and Trunks' "flawed" Super Saiyan forms that they used against Cell.

>>149855426
Fuck no the DB wiki has enough bullshit in it

>>149855627
>always defined as a 50x multiplier
TOP KEK

>>149862686
And then he uses blue to end the fight.

>>149851764
Infinite. It's Plot SSJ. You can't beat plot. He can get as strong as he needs to be.

>>149860758
You heard it here anon, the show has always literally been about numbers (that were only around for two story arcs in the middle of the series before the author ditched them for being too much trouble)

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i don't even try to understand the logic behind it anymore OP. I gave up mid cell saga as power levels stopped making any fucking sense there.

>>149860895
>In the first arc when it was a gag manga

The series was predominantly a gag manga at least until Krillin got killed at the tournament, but even after that the gags never entirely went away (cuz Toriyama likes dumb gags and lame puns)

>>149854105
[citation needed]

>>149852531
Red was stronger than Blue.
Original Red = 7/10 of Beerus power + instant regeneration like immortal Zamasu
Retconned red = who the fuck knows. All we know is Blue is shit and doesn't even make sense to be called stronger.
Super has a habit of retconning stuff. You're definitely going to see more of it as time goes on. People just love to suck Tori/Toei's cock and instantly accept it since it's the new canon, but feat-wise, Blue just doesn't hold up.

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>>149861008
>Go post on some Death Battle video

>>149861049
Go watch some more DBZ Abridged you cucknigger

>>149853476
Tell that to Trunks.

>>149861228
>DB started as a gag manga, and while it retained humor throughout, it got a lot less wacky by the end of the first arc

Remember those very serious moments in the fourth arc of DB where they beat a villain with Roshi's horny nosebleed and spend a significant amount of time fighting in an arena called "The Devil's Toulet) which features giant statues of Devils sitting on giant toilets?

>>149854147
That would make him too strong. Freeza at 500k made a deathball that engulfed Planet Vegeta. They stole this planet, and they have a lot of pride, so it isn't going to be a puny planet like Earth. Boros at best could only scorch a portion of the crust of Earth. He's at best slightly stronger than Vegeta when he first came to earth.

>>149864067
I meant "The Devil's Toilet" obviously, wtf

>>149850904
>Mastered Super Saiyan

the fuck?

>>149862686
the manga literally confirms that blue is stronger than god though, if anybody thinks god is stronger it comes from the movie or the anime

>>149861142
Makes sense, considering SSJ4 Gogeta's godly red hair.

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>>149863222
>Western faggots think they can dictate how a Japanese series works

I hope the next arc introduces something so absurd you all shit yourselves in rage.

>>149860589
Lies. Android 16 detected powerlevels. We weren't privy to it, but he did use it.

>>149864237
What Goku and Gohan achieved after training in the hyperbolic time chamber

>>149864277
i thought that was ascended?

>>149864305
Nah, there are four variants.
OP's wrong about the second decreasing speed, only the third decreases speed.
Base > improvement > slow hulk > natural state full mastery

>>149864714
this, I don't remember them ever mentioning Vegeta being slower in his improved form

>>149863148
>Ascended Super Saiyan =Whatever the Plot needs it to be (slight decrease in speed)
The drawback of Ascended Super Saiyan was that it used too much energy, not that it slowed them down.
>Super Saiyan 3 = Whatever the Plot needs it to be
Super Saiyan 3 used to be, in Z and GT, Ascended Super Saiyan with the Strengths and Drawbacks dialed up to 11. In Super the drawbacks seem to be much less pronounced, or altogether absent.

So why did the Portara earing fusion break apart after an hour when in DBZ, Supreme Kai said it was forever? Retcon? The goddamn supreme kai was standing there as if he had never said that

>>149866257
Yes, it was a retcon.

>>149850904
>applying math and logic to dragonball.
You are making a mistake.

>>149864878
It was mentioned that Vegeta was able to become Saiyan Hulk like Trunks, but chose not to because of the drawbacks. A scene in the Z anime showed Goku achieving Hulkmode in the Time Chamber, but coming to the same conclusion as Vegeta.

>>149864067
And that hilarious gag when Goku had a tearful reunion with his dead grandfather who he accidentally trampled to death as a child

>>149866536
yeah but we're talking about super vegeta here which OP said was a little slower even though the manga never says anything about its speed

>>149860702
>nice meme arrows
>literally quoting what he said
Hello new anon, enjoy your stay in 4chan but remember to read the rules before replying.

>>149850904
PLs don't work like that in Super any more.

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>>149850904
>decrease in speed

Water you talking about?

>>149851383
The same ki used to destroy the planets allows frieza to float and be alive.

Ever wonder why frieza is even alive?

Really makes you think, huh?

>>149864305
It's because in the dub they were all called "ascended." The names like "Ultra Super Saiyan" are fan terms.

In the Japanese version I don't think they had definitive names either except for in guidebooks where they were called Super Saiyan Level II, Level III, and Level IV.

Before Goku became Super Saiyan 3 (the first time he names "Super Saiyan 2"), there was actually a guidebook that called Super Saiyan 2 "Super Saiyan Level V."

>>149866539
Yes, there was an emotional climax but that was predominantly a gag arc

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>>149850904
>buu will never be relevant again

>piccolo will never be relevant again

why can't they have asspulls to power up these two?

>>149867948
>Nothing will ever be done with Goten
I want to die

>>149867948
>tease boo fighting
>just kidding he couldn't pass the written test

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>>149850904

is there any point to this besides showing off your autism? power levels were always bullshit, even more so in db super.

>finally obtain the powers of a god
>scrubs like Hit and Freeza can still catch up with a little bit of training
Godhood in the Dragon Ball universe is a fucking joke

>>149870037
it's always been, remember that the earth god has always been super weak before super and gods of destruction became a thing

>>149870404
Being Earth's Kami was more of an administrative job, though.

>>149870404
The Kaioshins were also pretty weak compared to the saiyans during the Buu saga. One would think a saiyan god would be a pretty big deal

>>149868434
Not as bad as what they did with Vegito

>>149870518
what does kami even do besides being linked to the dragon balls

>>149870667

Nothing, it's just how toriyama portrayed deities in db. he never wanted to go past freeza saga and just wrote that kind of stuff down as the series went on.

>>149870667
Watch over the planet and report to a Kaio if somehing goes weird?

>Ningens > Gods
>Potara=God technique
>just shoves two people together, who cares about proper compatibility
>Fusion Dance=Ningen technique
>you need to be 100% synchronized with the other person to really unleash its power
Is there any doubt at this point that Gogeta > Vegito?

>>149872366
Some people think Gogeta would get fucked on the timer for being SSB, but after that retcon on Patora, it's really not much of a difference.

>>149850904
>numbers

Fuck off /co/

>>149850904
I don't think the god forms are multipliers, they just bring out the latent god-ki in someone.

SSG: Essentially turns user into a god, allows them to use 100% of their god-ki. Also unlocks the use of god-ki in base form without training.

SSB: Sort of a "false" SSG, allows user them to use 100% of their god-ki without ritual or time-limit, but they need to learn how to use god-ki beforehand, don't become gods (so no stuff like the healing powers from SSG), and it takes up energy. I'm not confident I got this right, but this is my preferred explanation.

Also it seems that people take SSJ2 being 'twice as strong as SSJ' as 50 x 2, but I think that since that seems too weak to cover the gap between Gohan and Cell, and since (this is something I heard here, so it could be untrue) AT said that SSJ2 is "going super saiyan when you're already super saiyan", 'twice as strong as SSJ' really means the SSJ2 has the *effect* of SSJ twice over, so 50 x 50. This also extends SSJ3 to being 50^4 instead of 50 x 4.

these numbers are false, future trunks super saiyan 2 is on the same level as super saiyan blue for no reason/training at all

>>149850904
you forgot about trunks asspull super saiyan which is 9999999999999999x

>>149851349
>SSJ God have no idea and you might be right. SSJ Blue however is not as strong as god apparently and has far more weaknesses.
But that's wrong.

>>149850904
>thinking DBZ is about correct power levels

>>149872870
>I don't think the god forms are multipliers, they just bring out the latent god-ki in someone.

>SSB: Sort of a "false" SSG, allows user them to use 100% of their god-ki without ritual or time-limit, but they need to learn how to use god-ki beforehand, don't become gods (so no stuff like the healing powers from SSG), and it takes up energy. I'm not confident I got this right, but this is my preferred explanation.

SSGSS/SSB is explicitly said to be going Super Saiyan with God Ki rather than regular Ki. Your explanation for SSG makes sense though.

>>149850904
Seems about right, but god forms aren't powr multipliers.

They only got strong because Whis is training their base form.

>>149859993
He isn't even an Emperor, just some corporate boss born stronger than everyone else.

>>149874753
>SSB is explicitly said to be going Super Saiyan with God Ki rather than regular Ki
I figured that that was how they created SSB, they tried going SSJ with god-ki and ended up with a pseudo-SSG. I'm thinking the form we see Vegeta use when he stomps Black (SSB with a yellow inner aura) is the true god-ki equivalent to SSJ, because it looks similar to dual-aura Goku had when he used the kaioken with SSB.
Truth be told though, I think you're probably right, I'm just saying this for the sake of argument and me liking my explanation more.

>>149850991
>>149851020
>>149850904

Go sleep, Pedro

>>149850904
How can we be sure that blue is stronger than red, simply because one was seen before the other? It's not like you will ever see red again for a comparison.

>>149872870
How much regular Ki is God Ki equivalent to?

>>149850904
Not one of these numbers makes any sense at all, why do people keep trying

>>149872870
>but I think that since that seems too weak to cover the gap between Gohan and Cell
A 1.125x power difference is enough to dominate your opponent (see: Goku vs Vegeta, Saiyan Saga).

There's plenty of room.