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Why do so many people hate on Shirou defeating Gilgamesh?

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Why do so many people hate on Shirou defeating Gilgamesh?
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>>146750371
1. It's retarded.

2. Gives canonicity to UBW as the worst route and waste of time
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>>146750371
Rule of fiction:
>"Circumstances that gives the protagonist more troubles is exciting. Lucky circumstances however is cheating"
It was a cheap shot; He only won because Gilgamesh was not serious.
No one likes those kind of plot twists where the final boss was unable to unleash his full strength
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He only won because of his high ground.
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plot shield
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Actually I hate on Gil being as wanked in the first place.
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>>146750371
Fate is trash. We need a Fate board to get rid of all the Fate fags.
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>>146750371
They do not believe a fake can surpass the original.

>>146750658
Gil not being serious is part of his character. For Gil, the moment he decided to draw Ea against a human, he had already lost
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>>14675037
I'm sure some Nasutard will correct the record, but the fact that Gil managed to defeat both Alexader and Heracles makes it even more stupid that a weak ass nigga like Shirou managed to kill him.
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>>146750921
>Gil not being serious is part of his character.
Precisely. That's why he is an awful character. He has all the qualifications to be a final boss, except the backbone
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>>146750844
kys
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>>146750371
They don't read subs
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>>146750921
>Gil not being serious is part of his character.

That's not being debated here. The problem is that the main baddie losing because he's not taking the main character seriously just isn't very exciting. Shirou didn't win based on his own merits, he didn't plan a strategy based on what Gilgamesh would do, he just charged in and won because he was lucky enough to be fighting the biggest jobber in fiction.
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>>146750844
This we need to purge fatefags.
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>>146751096
>kys
Kill yourself
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>>146750844
>>146751174
Fatefags were here before you were.
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>>146750921
>For Gil, the moment he decided to draw Ea against a human, he had already lost
The thing is, drawing Ea was extremely retarded.
It's even more so retarded in the VN than in the anime, because in the latter they seem to have some distance between them on which Shirou does some retarded acrobatics (which makes even less sense as to how he could win), but in the VN Shirou got Gil to close quarters in a duel of who pulled weapons faster. Trying to take out Ea in that situation was extremely stupid.

It's even worse when you considering Gil could have overwhelmed Shirou by sheer speed only, but it seems Servants tend to forget they're far faster than humans (see Saber vs Kuzuki).

Even if Gil didn't feel like blitzing Shirou, he could have used his speed to make some space and don his armour.

But no, of all his choices, he decided to take Ea out.
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>serious Gilgamesh
EZ frag
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>>146750371
Q: Why do so many people hate on Shirou defeating Gilgamesh?
A: One; not only did Shiro have to fuck Rin for the necessary power-up he just had to talk about her butt-hole while doing it
Two: It makes no sense specially if you are familiar with fate Zero.
Three: Makes people realized that Archer could have wiped the floor with Gilgamesh if he took the Grail war Seriously.
Four: Shit writing
Five: The fight was way too easy for Shiro.
Six: POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT
Seven: Tohsaka's Anus
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>>146751232
>he could have used his speed to make some space and don his armour.
Looks like another anon don't get this scene. Rewatch Gil vs Berserker. You will notice that Gil don't move. Same in Gil vs Shirou.
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>>146751232
>(see Saber vs Kuzuki).
Stopped reading there.

Kuzuki was buffed to Servant-tier by a Servant. That includes his speed and his reaction times.
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>>146751170
>>146751073
Flawless villeins are boring.
There is nothing wrong with a flawed final boss.

>Shirou didn't win based on his own merits, he didn't plan a strategy based on what Gilgamesh would do
Using Gil arrogance against his own and pressuring him so he couldn't get a hold of himself after being overwhelm was literally his strategy.

>>146751232
He defeated Herk like that, if he did it with the greatest Greek hero, why shouldn't he do it with a human? That's how he fight, it is spelled out during his fight against Shirou.
Also, Shirou can trace stats of the original owners, there should be no problem keeping up on UBW since the swords do the work for him
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>>146751232
Ea is a weapon Shirou can't replicate, meaning that its' a weapon Shirou couldn't have broken by smashing it against a replica. He could have just used it as a club and it would have done a good job to cut Shirou's built-up advantage. The issue is that he didn't have time to pull it out by then.

He couldn't have run, because he tried exactly that and it would have gotten him killed if the Grail hadn't saved him for a few moments longer. That's the whole point, he only realized he was fucked once Shirou had such a big advantage on him that he no longer had time to do anything.

And I have no idea what you're bringing Saber and Kuzuk up for. That doesn't help your argument at all.
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>>146751170
>he didn't plan a strategy based on what Gilgamesh would do

He very clearly baited him into the one style of combat that he flat out says he knows Gil can't beat him on. What do you think the whole showmanship bit and insulting Gil's weaponry was for? He did exactly what you're claiming he didn't do.
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>>146751436
>Flawless villeins are boring.
We know.
But a flawless victory against the final boss is just as bad.
Please stop defending it.

An overpowered villain who can defeat anyone but the protagonist is a complete violation of the rules of fiction stories. It insults the viewer's intelligence too
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>>146751633
>Please stop defending it.
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>>146751633
>But a flawless victory against the final boss is just as bad.
>Please stop defending it.

You're not even making any sense here. What does this even mean?

>An overpowered villain who can defeat anyone but the protagonist is a complete violation of the rules of fiction stories

Gil dies to three different people, two of which deliberately bait him to create an opening and the last who just jumps his ass because he's a careless ass. Again, what you're saying makes no sense.
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>>146751356
>>146751436
Yeah, same thing when he fought Saber in Fate.
However, in both circumstances he hadn't been taken in to close quarters by either Saber or Berserker, since he kept them at a distance using his own tactics (be it using his weapons in different ways, or just sword spamming).

>>146751375
No, his abilities when reinforced by Caster are x10 that of a regular human. He's in no way match for a Servant that decided to speed blitz him, which Saber, being of one the most agile Servants, could have done very easily.

>Ea is a weapon Shirou can't replicate, meaning that its' a weapon Shirou couldn't have broken by smashing it against a replica. He could have just used it as a club and it would have done a good job to cut Shirou's built-up advantage. The issue is that he didn't have time to pull it out by then.
That's exactly my point. Taking Ea out under different circumstances might have been a good idea, but when the fight got taken to a very close range it became the worst thing Gil could have done.

>He couldn't have run, because he tried exactly that and it would have gotten him killed if the Grail hadn't saved him for a few moments longer.
I'm not talking about running away, I'm talking about making distance between them to don his armour (which doesn't even takes long to do).

>And I have no idea what you're bringing Saber and Kuzuk up for. That doesn't help your argument at all.
Speed, that's what I'm talking about. Speed.
Gil could have destroyed Shirou through sheer speed only, as Servants as much faster than humans.
Saber could have done the same with Kuzuki but chose to fight him regularly.
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>>146751633
>Please stop pointing out I'm wrong
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>>146751633
>An overpowered villain who can defeat anyone but the protagonist
Just the route before he was defeated by Saber, and then again by Sakura and the shadow in HF. On the same UBW Medea wins the HGW in a bad end as well.
What are you talking about?
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Well its a known fact that Gilgamesh is the strongest Servant.

With EA as EX ranked NP hes already OP but he still has his Gate of Babylon a A++ ranked Noble Phantasm with basically gives him access to only Gilgamesh knows how many A> Ranked NP's

And he has Enkidu unknown Rank but its a A++ or maybe even a EX ranked Noble Phantasm, i mean look at Heracles he couldn't move.

In the Saber route Saber only Won because of Avalon, Emiya just has the "MC" Power.
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>>146751727
>No, his abilities when reinforced by Caster are x10 that of a regular human.
You pulled that number out of your ass.
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>>146751720
It is precisely how you read it.
No one wanted to see a match where the final placer won simply because the 1st placers got bad luck.

Unless it's a comedy, no one will take it seriously.

>>146751762
Yup.
Gilgamesh's fate of either winning flawlessly, or losing it all in one strike is everything wrong about him
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>>146751849
>Q: This is about Kuzuki-sensei who is physically stronger than regular people. Aside from his fists being strengthened by Caster, are the rest his own strength, or did Caster strengthened other parts of his body as well?
>Nasu: In the anime version, his entire body is strengthened. When the excessively worrying Caster buffed him to ten times that of a normal human, since Kuzuki's base strength is higher than a normal human, he became even more ridiculous, and did the unthinkable during his fight with Saber. Caster was surprised herself: "What the? Isn't my Master a little too strong?!"
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How about some Gil humilation?

In a canyon of red clay soil several kilometers north of the cave Gilgamesh had been summoned in, a man was standing on a hill of roughly the same elevation as the top floor of Crystal Hill. He was a lanky man over two meters tall. A bow was gripped in his hands. It was larger than a normal great bow, but because it was being held by the slender man, it felt somewhat small. The man wore something that ought to be described as outlandish rather than strange. What would first attract one’s attention is the long piece of cloth vertically covering his body. It was not resting on his shoulders. Its center was placed over the top of his head, completely covering his face and the back of his head and then hanging down so as to conceal the front and back of his body. What can be seen of his face from the parts not covered by the cloth is at best the area around his ears, and one could not tell if even he could see in front. He had a skirt and undergarment behind the cloth and wore sandals, but he had no other piece of cloth on his upper body, and dark dye stained his exposed skin. There was also some form of pattern drawn in white dye on his body, but it was covered by the aforementioned cloth so its entirety could not be ascertained. The man, who at a glance looked like something that would appear in a horror game chasing after the main character, grinned beneath the cloth covering his face and gently drew the bow without a word. Then his fingers let go of the string, releasing a single arrow. At a speed far beyond the speed of the wind, beyond even the speed of sound.
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>>146751958
>since Kuzuki's base strength is higher than a normal human, he became even more ridiculous,
Read your own quotes before you post them.
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>>146751910
>either winning flawlessly, or losing it all in one strike
Again, he both, lost and won against Saber in different occasions. Same with Medea.
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>>146751974
Snowfield sky

A blade-like gust of wind hurtled through the city of Snowfield in a straight line. It cut through air and formed shockwaves, and by the time the boom resonated in the surroundings, the wind had already gone. In the center of the wind gust was a single arrow. Where it was heading was the top floor of Crystal Hill, a high-rise building at the heart of Snowfield. The arrow that the mysterious man shot had not decelerated, had not changed elevation, even briefly since he had fired it from the hill in the canyon, and it continued moving forward like a laser beam while ignoring the laws of physics. The arrow had already travelled 20 kilometers, which by itself proved that the bowman was no human being, no normal magus. The shockwave plowed through the city sky, the sound and impact shattering the glass of buildings below its line of fire.
A human, no, even a Heroic Spirit would not be safe from a direct hit. Soon after piercing the top of its target’s head, the rest of the upper body would be blown to smithereens.
The arrow continued straight on course to its target. To the head of the person standing next to Gilgamesh, the King of Heroes who was occupying the top floor of Crystal Hill: his Master, Tine Chelc.
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>>146751727
>No, his abilities when reinforced by Caster are x10 that of a regular human.

You're making shit up. No stats are ever given.

>but when the fight got taken to a very close range it became the worst thing Gil could have done.

Then what are you complaining about? There was no good choice there, he was fucked either way. He no longer had any time to do anything at all.

>I'm not talking about running away, I'm talking about making distance between them

So you're not talking about moving away, just moving away? Yes that makes sense. Clearly, the very act of not intending to run all the way would have slowed down time and made it so that he could move away before Shirou hacked him in two, which he can't do otherwise.

>Speed, that's what I'm talking about. Speed.

See above, you're making shit up.

>Gil could have destroyed Shirou through sheer speed only

Not at that point. If he didn't have time to do so much as flex his arm the few degrees needed to pull the weapon out, he had no time to do anything else. He was beyond the point where his speed made any difference, repeating the word "speed" over and over won't magically coalesce it into a valid argument.

>Saber could have done the same with Kuzuki but chose to fight him regularly.

She tried to slash at him to kill him. What the fuck is "speedblitzing" and why would it magically make her attacks faster when she was already swinging for real?
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>>146752022
10x his own base, still nowhere close to Servants.
Also, notice that in the quote Nasu said that his full body was reinforced in the anime. In the VN, only his fists were.
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>>146752040
Crystal Hill Royal Suite

Tine, who had been facing Gilgamesh, glanced to the window on the north side.
“Eh…?”
The sound hadn’t reached her yet. She simply sensed some strange disturbance in the mana in the air and just looked in that direction without much thought, but –
By the time she noticed that the wind was being shredded, it had been too late. A single point of death was coming from her, already at a distance at which her reflexes could not act in time. However she moved, there were no means for her by which she could avoid the incoming arrow that was moving faster than sound. For her at least.
“…”
Instantly, thunder boomed outside the glass window when the arrow was within 20 meters from the hotel. Bright light dazzled, and innumerous small bolts of lightning ran across the sky. Of those, one had directly hit the arrow and dissipated what should have been a deadly blow in the air. Still, the shockwave shattered the glass, coming at all sides in the room.
“ ”
Tine casted a silent chant, and wind swirled from her hand to become a barrier that deflected the glass shrapnel raining down on herself, Gilgamesh, and her subordinates.
“Are you uninjured?”
She asked Gilgamesh after regaining her breath.
Then the King of Heroes, who remained uninjured, answered unamused.
“I am fine.”
“What was that lightning?”
“The lightning was one of my Noble Phantasms. It seems that it intercepted something.”
Upon hearing this nonchalant reply from Gilgamesh, Tine mumbled something on reflex.
“Intercepted?”
Tine looked outside the window and saw multiple disks floating above the building.
“An autodefensor. There was a chance that my friend would spring a surprise attack in jest, so I had readied it in case, but–“
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>>146752093
Gilgamesh shifted his eyes to the north and took out a noble phantasm from his vault. It was a golden ring, which floated in the air, as seems to be the case with such objects, and had a strangely warped lens fit inside. Though it was a single lens, it showed the distant landscape like a telescope.
“I did not think it would deflect an arrow from a mere Archer.”
In the ring was a man boldly drawing a bow in this direction.
“Archer…?”
Questions entered Tine’s mind. Archer was none other than Gilgamesh. So it would have to be a Rider, Assassin, or Berserker-class Servant using a bow for a weapon. Tine looked at Archer through the golden ring and what surprised her first was how high his status values were. If you were to consider his total status points alone, it would appear that he was greater than Gilgamesh.
Then it must be a Berserker?
Gilgamesh muttered without changing his expression before an apprehensive Tine.
“….Will you come with me?”
But the second shot had already been fired.
The bolts of lightning from the autodefensor activated and went to intercept the incoming arrow, but while several bolts had struck it, the arrow managed to slip through the lightning strikes and came for Gilgamesh. The speed at which electricity transmitted through the air, the speed of lighting in other words, is slower than light, but it should have been fast enough to catch a normal arrow. But the speed of the arrow went beyond the limits of humanity. Gilgamesh instantly manifested his armor and knocked the arrow away with his left gauntlet. However, apparently not completely nullifying its force, a portion of the armor broke and chips of gold fell to the floor.
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>>146752139
“….Ho.”
Coldly looking at the chips of his armor, Gilgamesh slightly narrowed his eyes, then,
“Impressive bowmanship, however… I will shake off the rust from my treasures with you, you manner-less barbarian!”
An enormous noble phantasm appeared to the side of the top floor, outside of the shattered glass.
“What is this?”
“Tine, get on the back.”
“Are you sure of it?
“If I leave you behind, I cannot protect you from those infernal arrows. Until I fulfill my promise with my friend, I cannot have you die.”

Tine nodded strongly to answer the plainly-spoken words of the King and boarded the rear of the huge noble phantasm. It looked like it was a golden yacht with large fairy wings. It was the noble phantasm Vimana, a small aerial battleship among the noble phantasms of Gilgamesh. The King’s Treasure which is said to include all treasures included not only weapons but the crystallizations of all knowledge produced by man. When Tine was on the rear of Vimana on all fours, Gilgamesh launched the golden vehicle. The sudden acceleration almost caused Tine to be blown off unwittingly, but she managed to regain her balance and breath by using wards against wind and gravity control magic. Gilgamesh stood powerfully on the bow and sent the battleship toward Archer. Sometimes arrows launched by Archer would come but the dozens of interception systems deployed around it completely shot down all of them.
“This is amazing…”
The girl unconsciously exclaimed with emotion after seeing again what it was she was riding on.
“It can even do this…”
Was it awe or was it wonder that was contained in the emotions in the voice of the girl?
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>>146752087
What is your point anyway? He didn't beat Saber by moving faster, he beat her because his technique was unpredictable.

>still nowhere close to Servants.

Says who? That's around E anyway, and the text clearly states Kuzuki's base skills bump that even higher.
>>
I liked Gil if fate/zero. He was actually an interesting character there, and he totally would have used Ea against shirou. I like to think that the it was the holy grail that made Gilgamesh into a worse character and a jobber.
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>>146752039
I know.
His fate is judged by the demands of the plot instead of his character and powerlevel. His role in the hierarchy is nothing more than an accessory

That's everything wrong about him.
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>>146752168
“Ho.”
Looking at the golden ship which managed to arrive before him, Archer exhaled a quiet mumble. A low mumble, which behind it contained shades of frank admiration and slight self-mockery.
“You attempted to take me by surprise. You better not be begging for your life.”
In reaction to Gilgamesh who jumped down from the bow to the hill, Archer, who was about 10 meters away, gradually brought his face up eerily.
“….”
“Do you have any last words?” asked Gilgamesh, but the mysterious Archer did not even attempt a reply. Saying nothing, he silently drew his bow. And then without hesitation, shot an arrow towards Tine, whose head was exposed from the rear seat of Vimana.
“!”
The faster than sound arrow headed towards Tine’s face. She could mitigate the force of the shockwave with a powerful wind barrier, but it wouldn’t be able to completely hold off the arrow. Tine once again recognized the incoming death that was closing in on her, but –
Vimana’s add-on interception noble phantasm shot it down in front of her.
“Fool, did you think it would no longer activate if I was no longer on it?”
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>>146751974
How about you stop spamming shit everyone's read already?
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>>146752192
His character is 100% the reason he lost to Shirou, Saber, and Sakura.
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>>146752231
Or what?
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>>146752192
>I know.

So why did you say something completely different before?
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>>146750371
>>>/vg/
>>146750844
Most of them are already on /vg/ just redirect them there so hopefully most of the Fate cancer is gone. Glad HF is a movie so it will have only threads when it is released.
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>>146750371
They can't believe that rock lost to paper.
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>>146752230
“….”
Ignoring Gilgamesh, Archer fired two, three more shots continuously. Tine had already hid herself behind the hull, but he continued drawing his bow with force as if he were to penetrate Vimana’s armor. There was a cracking sound to the side of Gil’s head. Anyone watching should know what he was trying to do. He wasn’t seriously trying to shoot through the ship to get to Tine; he we taunting the hero called Gilgamesh. Either not realizing he was being taunted, or realizing it but being angered by the fact that Archer was continuing to target the girl and ignore him, Gilgamesh continued speaking with anger in his detached tone of voice.
“If victory is all that matters to you, or if you would choose to win painlessly, that is the right decision to make. I might do the same on a whim depending on the circumstance.”
And then, in the next instant –
“But it is because I am the one doing it that it can be tolerated! It is not an act that is allowed for the likes of you!”
Shouting the unreasonable, Gilgamesh fired countless noble phantasms from the Gate of Babylon opening behind him. It seemed that this rain of blades mixed with high rank noble phantasms would leave nothing remaining of Archer. But he waved the bow he was holding with his left hand and knocked aside the noble phantasms that had been fired at a speed that defied the common sense of heroic spirits.
“What?”
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>>146751910
>It is precisely how you read it.

Nonsense?

>No one wanted to see a match where the final placer won simply because the 1st placers got bad luck.

He didn't get bad luck, he got outplayed.

What the fuck does this have to do with "flawless victory"? Do you just use words at random based on how they sound or something?
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>>146752192
>powerlevel
This is your problem. Powerlevels are not a straight line where things are always the same no matter what.
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>>146752239
Yeah, and his character is the 100% reason he won against so many other heroes that are far stronger.

He has no permanent place and his entire existence is to be a plot device and nothing more.
That's what everyone hates about him
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>>146752318
“…”
The Heroic Spirit who deflected dozens of noble phantasms without a scratch silently held out his hand towards Gilgamesh. And then, he turned it over palm side up and curled his fingers back and forth, beckoning for Gilgamesh to come. Gilgamesh narrowed his eyes and had his voice reverberate over the hill with a voice of restrained rage.
“I see that you have nimble fingers. Then….how about this?”
Gilgamesh put on a malicious smile and deployed the Gate of Babylon over a large area around the hill. Deployed over all sides around Archer, the entrance to his vault began to undulate like a tornado. Suddenly, innumerous noble phantasms were blasted out with the momentum of a machine gun, creating a tornado of light and impact high above the hill. Dozens, hundreds, thousands of noble phantasms came raining down onto the man standing in the center of the tornado. At times, they were blades, at times they were knowledge, at times they were pain, at times they were knowledge. There had been a long sword that slayed an oriental dragon. There had been a demonic sword that brought ruin. There had been a spear that killed heroes. There had been lightning without form. The originals of all the noble phantasms humanity had obtained or created were propelled unsparingly. A hellish rain spun by mankind was fired in all directions in 360 degrees. Tine seeing the amazing sight had imagined that not even chunks of flesh would remain of Archer. But once the tornado settled, a spectacle that betrayed Gilgamesh and Tine’s expectations greeted them. In it was Archer, still uninjured, brushing off the dust from the long piece of cloth covering his body, and around him, piles of innumerous noble phantasms.
“It can’t be…” said Tine, her eyes bulging in disbelief, but Gilgamesh ignored her and looked at his foe.
For some time, silence dominated the hill, but that was soon broken by Archer’s chuckling.
>>
>>146751006
>He uses his most special NPs (Ea, Enkidu) for both those opponents
>Only uses his standard rain against Shirou
Well no fucking shit.
>>
Because the author wrote himself into a corner when he made his powerman character and couldn't come up with a clever way for the MC to beat him.

It was awesome to watch Kihara manhandle accelerator with nothing but his understanding of accelerator's powers.

It was too sweet to watch Frenda keep up with Misaka using her cunning.

It's a bore and infuriating to watch Touma beat everyone just because lol imagine breaker.
>>
>>146752358
”Heh….hehheh…..hgh….ha…hahaha…”
An obviously mocking voice emerged from behind the cloth.
“What is so amusing?” asked Gilgamesh with a blank expression, to which Archer replied back, saying very clearly:
“Weak.”
Anyone who had once faced Gilgamesh would question the sanity of whoever said that.
“….”
Tine felt as if the temperature almost suddenly dropped.
“All you do is throw weapons blindly...even hurling sand would have made a better substitute...“
The mysterious Archer continued speaking in the chilly atmosphere he created.
“Such puerile tricks can defeat only weaklings……or non-thinking beasts.”
He spoke softly but it was evident that what he said had strength in it containing not simple derision but some manner of fixation, of tenacity. .
“……Ho?”
The expression on Gilgamesh’s face changed. Tine was worried that Gilgamesh would explode, but to the contrary, a sliver of a smile appeared around his mouth. In that moment the emotion that controlled Gilgamesh transformed from “anger at the mannerless attacker” to “curiosity in this strong warrior.”
>>
>>146751436
Gilgamesh was a flawless villain, but it wasn't him being villain that made him interesting, it was his personality and views. Re-watch Fate/Zero.
>>
>>146752396
Observing the change in the King of Heroes, the mysterious Archer said, “Draw the sword that lies in the deepest parts of your storage. Then we will be equals.”
Perhaps he had learned of it from someone else, or he had noticed the exception presence in the vault from the previous attack, but Archer was telling Gilgamesh to bring his strongest weapon.  
Gilgamesh gnashing his teeth smiled and returned the taunt in amusement.
“Ea is no less than my other half. It is not a sword to use against a weakling like you.”
And then, instead of the Ea the Sword of Separation, a single sword appeared in Gilgamesh’s hand. Merodach, the sword said to the original model of the legends of swords of selection in the various lands of the world. He must be planning on testing his opponent with this sword, to determine if he merited drawing Ea, his very symbol, on.
“Prove to me that you are worthy of beholding Ea.”
“What foolishness…you could have avoided death had you drawn it.”
Archer muttered and then lowered his right hand, the one not holding the bow, to the side of his body.
A new piece of “fabric” appeared around it upon doing so. It would appear at a glance to be a band with a plain pattern drawn on it, but those who could see from a different perspective would immediately recognize just how abnormal it was.
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>>146752192
>>146752351

You sound oddly perplexed by the idea that this might not be DBZ where everything is decided by one universal "powerlevel" stat and that different matchups can create upsets based on abilities.
>>
>>146752351
>his character makes him win against certain people
>his character makes him loss against others or when the same defeated characters come up with a plan
There is no actual problem with this. What are you even saying now?
>>
>>146752434
“That is….a Noble Phantasm for sure….”
To even Tine’s eyes, the magic covering that band was abnormal. Gilgamesh looked at this cloth covered with a thick divine aura like it had been used by a god itself and narrowed his eyes.
“I feel something different from the gods I know of. But it has the same roots…”
It was a bit of a displeasing noble phantasm to Gilgamesh who claimed to hate the gods. But he was interested to see what move this Archer would play. Gilgamesh boldly waited for his foe to make his move while looking at him in half anticipation. Archer laughed behind the cloth and prepared to release the power of his noble phantasm. Then several seconds later, a blow filled with the divine aura rocked the earth.
A blow rich with divine aura shook the earth. But it had not been a blow dealt by the mysterious Archer.
"....Eh?"
Tine, peeking her head from the rear seat of Vimana, could not believe what had transpired. Just as Archer was going to manifest the power of the piece of fabric that seemed to be his noble phantasm, a horse appeared from out of nowhere, and the girl riding on it dismounted behind Archer.
She looked to be from 16 to around 18 years of age, at the very least not over 20. Her long hair was kept neatly bundled to the back of her head, and her lively peach-colored body was dressed in a unique style of clothing of soft cloth and leather. She gave off an energetic impression on whole and approached Archer from behind with a cool face and without making a sound.
>>
>>146752392
The entire VN had been building up the idea that Shirou copies swords.
>>
>>146752471
"....?"
Noticing that Gilgamesh furrowed his brows, Archer was about to turn around when suddenly the girl’s fist deeply dug into the covered part of his face. A sound that could only be from an explosion boomed, Archer's body being propelled like a cannon shell. His body smashed deep into the wall of a different hill, and the small hil in turn then began to collapse.
After a brief silence, a simple fact dominated the air. The fact that the man whom Gilgamesh's volleys of noble phantasms from Gate of Babylon could do nothing to was sent flying by this girl's thin arm.
The girl glared with immense hate at the debris where Archer was buried, then flicking a glance over to Tine and Gilgamesh behind her, she said, "That scum is my prey. Don't interfere."
Some time passed before, Gilgamesh opened his mouth, eyes narrowed.
“…This is exactly what is called spoiling the mood, girl.”
>>
>>146752519
Tine judged that Gilgamesh was clearly displeased from his tone. He had every right to be angry, for the battle that had excited him had been interrupted. Not only that, but it had been the second time since the first day that someone had ruined his fight.
In this precarious situation, Tine thought to at least probe into the girl’s identity. But one thing threw her into deep confusion. The girl in front of her had around her arm the same piece of fabric as the noble phantasm-seeming fabric wrapped around Archer's arm. Not only was the pattern no different, but even the thick divine aura that shook the air was completely the same.
Could it be the same noble phantasm?
While Tine was in confusion and Gilgamesh was quietly fuming, the debris of the collapsed hill flew to all sides like from a volcano eruption following a great thundering sound.

It was a grail war intertwined with true and fake. The strong gathered to this land, and the destiny of the holy grail was about to be further mired in the mud of chaos.
>>
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>>146752429
>Gilgamesh was a flawless villain,

>Re-watch Fate/Zero.

I have no idea what people like about Zero Gilgamesh. His only interesting side is fleshed out on CCC, where it builds up on what he was doing in UBW and his chat with Kirei in HF. His Zero screen-time is chiefly empty grandstanding and playing discount Mephistopheles to Kirei.
>>
>>146752392
>implying
Touma against Othinus was hype as fuck. Carissa battle was also amazing.
>>
>>146750371
Zerofags
>>
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>>146752450
Nay.
I just do not deny that a god being defeated by a single lucky shot is just plain inexcusable

>>146752469
Do not lie.
When everything falls into your favor without so much of a challenge, it is just plain unsatisfying
>>
>>146751633
>But a flawless victory against the final boss is just as bad.
>Please stop defending it.
It's not bad and I can defend it all I like, you aren't the one who rules what is good or not in writing you dumb nerd.
>>
>>146752625
I don't.
Basic common sense does
>>
>>146752616
>by a single lucky shot

What lucky shot?

>When everything falls into your favor without so much of a challenge

What are you even talking about?

Is your entire argumentative strategy to use words and say things at random hoping nobody notices you're saying nothing specific at all?
>>
>>146752663
Again you don't dictate what's good or bad. A flawless victory against the last boss is not a flaw.
>>
>>146752616
>When everything falls into your favor without so much of a challenge
When did this happen?
It was already said various times how Shirou had to create the situation on various ways.
>>
>>146752616
>I just do not deny that a god being defeated by a single lucky shot

He's defeated by three different shots, only one of them was not deliberately engineered by the one killing him.

You are saying things, but they have nothing to do with anything that actually happens in the story. What the fuck is a "flawless victory" and who are you talking about here, because all three times he's defeated it's by the skin of the victor's teeth. Look up a fucking dictionary and try using words that actually mean whatever the hell you're trying to say.
>>
>>146752804
He is just spouting /a/ memes, because that's all that this series amounts to now. A dumb phone game and /a/ memes with cloned discussions.
>>
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>>146752718
Just because you can't understand it does not mean no one does.

>>146752733
Yes it is. It's called "Dues ex Machina" and it is taboo in the literature world

>>146752744
And his plan went too smoothly and unsatisfying. That's what everyone hates about the fight

>omg I got beaten up
>time to use THAT
And the worst part is that the final boss did not even got to unleash his full strength. It's really a cheap victory

Man, my hands are getting tired
>>
>>146750371
Edgy teens who side with Gil as opposed to the morally driven Shirou
>>
>>146751170
>he didn't plan a strategy based on what Gilgamesh would do,
Did you miss the entire point of Shirou learning UBW or something?
Once Gil is inside there, he fucking loses.
>>
>>146752888
>omg
I was giving the benefit of the doubt, but now you are obviously baiting. Fuck off.
>>
>>146752888
>Yes it is. It's called "Dues ex Machina" and it is taboo in the literature world
Are you 13? A flawless victory against the last boss is in no way a Deus Ex Machina. Stop having fun damn it.
>>
>>146752616
>I just do not deny that a god being defeated by a single lucky shot is just plain inexcusable
But it's very possible. Just because Gilgamesh exists doesn't mean he automatically wins over everyone forever and the show should be about how cool and strong he is, that's just powerlevel wanking.

Fact is, Gilgamesh has weaknesses and Shirou exploited them.
>>
>>146752888
>Just because you can't understand it does not mean no one does.

You're down to this already?

>And his plan went too smoothly and unsatisfying.

See >>146752804

>Man, my hands are getting tired

So you're setting up a n excuse why you're running away before explaining anything at all.
>>
>>146752048
>You're making shit up. No stats are ever given.
see
>>146751958
>>146752087

>There was no good choice there, he was fucked either way. He no longer had any time to do anything at all.
What? They were just clashing swords, to which he lost, because he pulled a weapon that took longer than the rest to show up, which allowed Shirou to chop off his arm.

>So you're not talking about moving away, just moving away? Yes that makes sense. Clearly, the very act of not intending to run all the way would have slowed down time and made it so that he could move away before Shirou hacked him in two, which he can't do otherwise.
Running away has other implications.
In this case, all Gil had to do was to make some space, which he did manage to do after Shirou chopped off his arm.

Notice Shirou said he was about to go for the kill when Gilgamesh suddenly retreated, which shows Gil is fast enough to make space between them and don his armour, yet somehow the thought never occurred to him.

>She tried to slash at him to kill him.
She went head on at regular speed, by the time he started to pull his Snake moves she should have overwhelmed him through speed.
>>
>>146752888
>Yes it is. It's called "Dues ex Machina"
No it isn't.
>>
>>146753051
You're acting as is Gilgamesh is a perfectly rational actor when the VN goes to great lengths to establish that he isn't. He's an arrogant motherfucker.
>>
>>146752171
>He didn't beat Saber by moving faster, he beat her because his technique was unpredictable.
Which Saber could have avoided by simply moving faster than he could deal with.
Hell, she shouldn't have even needed to resort to that, as her battle instincts were supposed to be good enough to allow her to avoid Tsubame Gaeshi.
>>
>>146753051
>She went head on at regular speed, by the time he started to pull his Snake moves she should have overwhelmed him through speed.
Is't Saber lost because of her instinct? She eveded his strakes
>>
>>146752888
>Yes it is. It's called "Dues ex Machina" and it is taboo in the literature world
I think this guy actually believes the shit he's spouting.
The entire UBW route was preparing Shirou to match up against Gilgamesh.
It's not a deus ex machina at all, it's been fully explored and detailed as a plot point and his ability he's been honing for some time.
>>
>>146753021
>having THAT
>villain was full retard
>no way a Deus Ex Machina
Keep smoking

>>146753029
Yup. He wins/loses only when the writer wants him to. Not because of his character suddenly facing against someone naturally stronger/weaker
It's like his entire battle is nothing more than a game of rock, paper, scissors

>>146753031
Wait, I forgot to reply to him
>>
>>146752888
>And his plan went too smoothly

Saber has to spend a whole afternoon getting the shit stabbed out of her before she could bait him into using Ea, and Shirou had basically a choice between Gil taking the bait and winning, or him refusing and killing him. Even then, he failed to give him the coup de grace because the Grail interfered.

The only Deus Ex Machine there was the Grail saving Gil by making Shirou retreat. A smart logical plan working as intended is not Deus Ex Machine, so you can chalk that up with "flawless victory" in the list of expressions you use without having any fucking idea what they mean.
>>
>>146752804
Nay, he never lost because someone was "better"
He lost because he is a retard.
>>
>>146753147
Tsubamegaeshi is still rooted in more traditional swordsmanship. Kuzuki's bullshit is not.
>>
>>146752888
>It's called "Dues ex Machina"
Lmao
>>
>>146753142
I know he's arrogant, which is why he allowed the fight to go to close quarters in the first place.

However, there's such a thing as arrogance (getting to a close range battle against Shirou), and another is to attempt to take out a weapon that would take longer than the rest, even though he's in a duel of who swings faster. That's not him being arrogant, but him being very retarded.
>>
>>146753170
>>146753200
Surely, you jest.
Being able to win simply because your opponent is so stupid to fall for a 13 year old's tricks is an undeniable comedy.

A complete victory over a hulking mass of Smugy Stu because of THAT is a Dues ex Machina to call
>>
>>146753174
>He wins/loses only when the writer wants him to

The only reason anybody in fiction does anything at all is because the writer wants them to.

>Not because of his character suddenly facing against someone naturally stronger/weaker

He fought against two people who realized they had counters to specific moves that they baited him into using.

>It's like his entire battle is nothing more than a game of rock, paper, scissors

Again, everything you say seems to suggest you understand nothing but DBZ universal single-variable powerlevels. You speaking about "naturally stronger" suggests this as well, as if this were a meaningful thing.
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>>146753289
>but him being very retarded.
He is. Just look at this >>146752434
>>
>>146753174
It can't be a Deus Ex Machina because UBW doesn't just appear into the story for Gil, it was a established power of his that was being developed throughout the story.
>>
>>146753289
At the point where Gil draws Ea he's desperate to win and he goes shamefully for his strongest weapon. That's the whole point. He wasn't thinking rationally. It isn't a Deus Ex Machina if everything in the narrative builds up to something in case you're the idiot insisting that there was one in the fight.
>>
>>146753238
What? Tsubame Gaeshi is absolute bullshit, as it is close to 2nd Magic.
Hell, Saber somehow managing to dodge it makes no sense
>>
>>146753387
That's not canon.

It doesn't matter in this context.
>>
>>146753414
>it makes no sense
But VN/anime show you how to dodge this shit
>>
>>146753221
>Nay, he never lost because someone was "better"

Define "better." Again, you sound like you only understand DBZ powerlevels when you say shit like this. Gil himself is a less capable fighter than a great deal of his opponents, the bulk fighting history is chiefly decided by having nicer toys.s What would mean "better than him"?

>>146753344
Are you saying that any time someone tricks the villain, it's a Deus Ex Machina? Because you hav eno fucking clue what those words even mean then.
>>
>>146753344
Literally the only person that's ever been able to force Gil to actually think on his feet in all of history before is Enkidu. Not the only person who HAS done it, the only person EVER ABLE to do it. That's not because Gil's smart, it's because no one else has ever had the means to effectively challenge Gilgamesh's powers.

He's complacent. Complacent people do stupid things because they aren't used to being challenged. In Gil's case, that was going for his "strongest" thing even though it was clearly useless in that situation.
>>
>>146753365
Nope. A good story sets up borders and limits.
Defeat via headshot is reserved for the red shirts, not final boss.
Otherwise it is just plain bad writting

Also, stop lying.
We all know that Gil has an entire arsenal to counter any Servant. And the fact that he lost to a white knight simply because of his pride is just plain insulting
>>
>>146753344
>Being able to win simply because your opponent is so stupid
As long as Shirou gets up UBW, Gil loses. Rin knows that. Shirou knows that, Saber is wary but trusts them.
You were supposed to realize that as well. It's a total counter to his ability. Everything before that is just Shirou testing the waters and Gil doing his unconcerned King shtick. If you still think that's a deus ex machina, then maybe stories aren't for you.
This isn't a VS Match-up where both opponents go head to head as hard as they can right from the get-go. It's called a personality trait, a weakness as a result of his past experiences.
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>>146753475
>That's not canon.
Strange Fake is not canon?
>>
>>146753522
Some people think that anything that isn't FSN isn't canon.
>>
>>146753522
No, it isn't.

Just like Fate/Extra, CCC, and Prisma Ilya are not. They don't matter in the context of this conversation.
>>
>>146753414
All it is is three attacks at the same time, the fatal flaw is its range and the proper stance required for a complete version, not to mention the third slash have to be slightly slower than the rest. So all you have to do is dodge backward and you'll be out of range even if he have infinite sword slash at the same time.
>>
>>146753522
It isn't.
It literally is fanfiction made by Narita.

>>146753563
Extra/CCC were written by Nasu, though.
>>
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>>146753563
>>
>>146753147
>Which Saber could have avoided by simply moving faster than he could deal with.

How?

Is that your only argument? They are already moving as fast as they can. You seem to have no argument besides claiming that they are all storing unseen accelerators they're not using despite no indication of that.

He's already moving fast enough to catch her blow. Saying "she should have moved faster" is just ransom bullshit if you can't provide any indication that she was holding back.
>>
>>146753599
>fanfiction made by Narita.
Gilfags. Everyone.
>>
>>146753599
Nasu is consulting. Hell, Nasu's been spoiling plot points from Strange Fake in FGO.
>>
>>146753493
Well, Gil HAS all the best toys that history has to offer.
Yet, he got defeated because he is a retard.

>Are you saying that any time someone tricks the villain, it's a Deus Ex Machina?
Well, are you saying that an all-mighty god falling to the tricks of a meme spouting peasant is not?

>>146753506
Yup. And Gil'sa pride is everything that is unsightly about him
Imagine Superman losing because the villain has a hostage. That's how bad Gil is
>>
Because Shiroufags are mostly huge wanks; who purposefully try to miss the fact that it was rock,paper,scissors, and just try to overwank someone who the author says is a lower tier servant, as they say he's stronger than absolutely any servant and can kill TYPES.

Shirou beat Archer, that must mean he's stronger than any servant and is the strongest. Shirou beat Gilgamesh, that must mean he's stronger than Arcuied.

Shirou wasn't servant tier, people aren't hating on Shirou by saying this. Shirou himself fucking says this during the final battle of UBW, but Shiroufags bypass this fact and say "No no, he can kill them all". Shirou even by the end of UBW says he couldn't beat any other servant, except Gilgamesh due to compatibility. No that's not him being humble.

Shirou wasn't stronger than his future self either, he won that one due to the difference in their hearts, their mentality.
>>
>>146753575
But that's not what Saber did.
Remember, she could only avoid it, because her battle instinct had her trip before the attack could connect. This only worked because they were fighting at the temple stairs. Otherwise, on even ground she would have died.
>>
>>146753695
I see far more people like you than people who actually say what you say people say.

In other words, nice strawman.
>>
>>146753770
No, she did an emergency lunge roll because she was still a battle stance, there's a reason why she was rolling down the stairs.
>>
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I personally just don't get how Gil has this glaring weakness that a 17 year old Japanese kid was able to figure out and yet everyone still boasts about how powerful he is. I'm amazed he was able to even survive the 4th grail war let alone make it to the end of the 5th twice.

Is every Servant just dumber than Gil or something?
>>
>>146752178
Gil got pissy when Tokiomi even suggested using Gae Bolg on Caster's tentacle monster. I doubt a human, especially a novice user of magecraft would warrant pulling out Ea.
>>
>>146753499
>A good story sets up borders and limits

Which this does. We're back to you talking vague nonsense hoping people will just not realize you're saying nothing at all.

>Defeat via headshot is reserved for the red shirts

He gets tricked into a no-win scenario and is only killed by another helper because a lucky event SAVED HIM from dying to the trap he fell on.

He did not get killed by "luck." He lucked into lasting long enough to get killed like he did.

>We all know that Gil has an entire arsenal to counter any Servant

And he's fighting someone who deliberately baited him into a fight style where he could not use any of that.

The more you speak, the more is sound like you're just fucking stupid and didn't even understand what was going on. Explain what was he supposed to pull out of his treasury to sav ehim ehwn he no longer had time to pull anything out of his treasury.
>>
>>146753859
Shirou is a magical sword autist. He just kind of understands those sort of things.

That's actually a fairly legitimate complaint, though.
>>
>>146753859
Gil has NEET type personality. He's like wet dream of some anon from 2ch. That's why his comedy comeo is NEET
>>
>>146753827
pretty much:
She moves her attacking sword into defense, and she repels Assassin's full-power attack…!

"Got it…!"
Even Assassin will have an opening if that attack is repelled.
In the small instant where she tries to slice Assassin's stomach…

"Ah"

In that instant, Saber trusts her instincts and rolls down the stone steps.
she doesn't even soften her landing.
saber spins her body frantically and rolls down the stair without killing her speed.

"Ku-!"
Saber stops rolling and stands back up.
She stares at the swordsman standing calmly


http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%2048/
she rolls down as if fleeing.
>>
>>146752040
>I can't see shit
>>
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>>146753898
Well, does the chain ring a bell?
Shirou may not be a divine being but it is enough to buy him enough time to use his THAT
>>
>>146751762
I never got any bad ends.
How the fuck did Medea win the grail war, again?

Wasn't she handicapped because of Shinji or some book or something?
>>
>>146754016
You're confusing Medea and Medusa.

Medusa won the war in HF, though.
>>
>>146753859
Shirou isn't the only one to figure it out, he is just the only one uniquely qualified to actually do something about it.

Being an insignificant nat with the perfect counter to his ability.
>>
>>146754016
You missed Sparks Liner High?
>>
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>>146754016

>Medea
>anything to do with Shinji
>>
>>146754016
Medea's master wasn't Shinji.

Medea didn't have to worry much about a proper master because she uses the land and workshop to gather power. and abused Shirou's 'projection' ability to get the effective weapon against certain servants to allow her the chance to take control of servants, especially with Saber holding the frontline.
>>
>>146753684
>Well, Gil HAS all the best toys that history has to offer.
>Yet, he got defeated because he is a retard.
>Well, are you saying that an all-mighty god falling to the tricks of a meme spouting peasant is not?

He has character flaws and Shirou exploited that exact character flaw.

In case your dumb stupid ass doesn't realize it, a Deus Ex Machina is when something not previously established by the narrative comes out of nowhere to solve problems in ways that did not arise from the narrative flow. Shirou used his extremely well explored skill and baited Gilgamesh's by then very well established personality to execute a perfectly logical trap. None of this is in any way close to a Deus Ex Machina, in the same way that someone winning by the skin of their teeth and dodging death by a hair is not a flawless victory. That's two terms you sued that you seem to have no understanding of.

>>146753684
>Yup. And Gil'sa pride is everything that is unsightly about him
>Imagine Superman losing because the villain has a hostage. That's how bad Gil is


That has nothing to do with what he said and your comparison doesn't make a lick of sense.
>>
>>146753859

Oh right, the other people he fought should have used their own weapon copying ability, or their Ea-resilient shield that everyone has.
>>
>>146754002
You're not making any sense.

Are you saying using a suitable ability is Deus ex Machina?

Again, are you just to stupid to understand anything that isn't linear powerlevels? Because by that logic, Gil winning anything is bullshit since he's entirely reliant on pulling out his suitable resources to fight with, not fighting as a warrior.
>>
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>>146754140
He is a complete Gary Stu who spent all his franchise establishing how perfect he is and how lost because he is a retard.

Spare yourself the dignity of defending a jobber and just admit that any argument about him will amount to nothing more than a play of words
>>
>>146754337
>who spent all his franchise establishing how perfect he is
Except the VN and indeed every story he's appeared in since has gone to great lengths to establish he's an arrogant cock.
>>
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>Gil has plot armor in F/SF as MC
>He will never be rekt again
>>
>>146752556
>>146752519
>>146752471
>>146752434
>>146752396

All of this is incredibly hype, I wish the LN volumes would drop more than once a year.
>>
>>146754337
>he's a Gary Stu
>he's a jobber
Which is it?
>>
>>146750371
Because Shirou is the definition of mary sue.
Its literally "kid who just learned how to walk defeats immortal god".
>>
>>146754502
Both
>>
>>146754337
>He is a complete Gary Stu who spent all his franchise establishing how perfect he is and how lost because he is a retard.

It seems your problems that you're terrible at understanding things. Gil basically wins zero battles because of anything inherent to him, it's all his arsenal. Having, essentially, nothing to indicate he does anything by personal merit (except probably resisting the mud) makes it impossible to consider him a Gary Stu, which is supposed to be a male character with excessive virtues, abilities and never being in the worn. By comparison, Gil is established as being fairly mediocre in skill compared to all the other legendary warriors, having a crippling ego (ironically the source of his aforementioned personal achievement), and winning largely by things granted to him.

So that's a third expression you toss out that has no connection to what you're discussing. A this point, you're either too stupid to be worth talking to, or just a troll, so that's the end of this conversation given you've been doing nothing but posting nonsense for over half an hour.
>>
>>146754527
More like "Kid who just learned to walk in a world of people who levitate defeats a nigh-immortal god who always lays down and is weak to people walking on his face."
>>
>>146754614
Yes, we all know that he is the brainless brute.
No need to point out the common knowledge
>>
>>146754337

Gary Stus don't lose and they're always right. Gil fulfills neither of those categories.

See: Onii-chan
>>
>>146754737
You get the point
>>
>>146754337

Gil didn't spend all the franchise being wanked before losing to Shirou, it's the other way around. He lost to Shirou, and the rest of the franchise has been working overtime to justify it.

You sound like a bitter Zerofag.
>>
>>146754502
Whichever suits his argument
>>
>>146754762
That you throw out buzzwords at random which you don't understand?
>>
>>146754213
To be fair Caster didn't need an Ea-resilient shield because Gil was never gonna use Ea on him anyway.

In fact most people don't need an Ea-resilient shield for that exact reason.
>>
>>146754833
Whatever
>>
>>146754863
Look at this badass
>>
>>146753859

Archer is the one who figured out Gil's weakness and Rin and Saber are the ones who gave Shirou the basis for realizing he could beat Gil in the first place by describing Gil as an 'owner', not a 'warrior'. Shirou never would have thought he'd stand a chance if not for Archer literally giving him the magic stare of 'you can beat him, kid! Use the oxygen in your muscles! Use the 720 degree fourth dimensional Dempsey Blade Works!"

Everyone thinks Shirou's the one who beat Gil, when it was all Archer's plan from the instant he got backstabbed by Gil. If not for Archer, Shirou wouldn't have even tried to fight Gil, let alone managed to figure out how to beat Gil, let alone survived when Gil pulled out Ea for a second to screw with him for a bit and Archer used Rho Aias to block it.
>>
>>146753887
Never thought about using F/Z as a source for secondaries insulted that Gil acts a bit different between F/Z and F/SN. Good idea.
>>
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>>146754789
>bitter Zerofag.

Mfw I see these fucking secondaries whining about how Shirou shouldn't have a Reality Marble "like Iskander" because he's not on his level.

God, Zero was a mistake. Even Urobuchi couldn't write a scenario in GO where Iskander doesn't end up looking like a retard when forced to make him actually face practical matters, instead of hypothetical arguments he could grandstand his way out of.
>>
>>146750371

Hubris cliche is sometimes grating, even with how it's clear that's basically his entire character.

>doesn't bother to finish him at castle
>even observes the fact he's literally young archer, the same fucking skill set
>never dons his armour, plays around too long and dies for it
>archer just somehow decided to lay low right until now, why didn't he help earlier, he didn't need to wait to blow yet another shield during the fight (he should have depleted his mana by then)
>why not throw a sword spam when gils back is turned or something, clearly didn't fucking know archer was there.

The fight is contrived.
>>
>>146755072

To be fair, Urobuchi's writing for that scenario was hamstrung by Nasu demanding a happy ending for the event, instead of what Urobuchi likely desired, which was a horrific and tragic result from Waver screwing everything up thinking that he could fix the war's result with his metaknowledge
>>
Why are Fatefags so defensive about their series? Why can't you guys take any ounce of criticism?

Even Bleachfags, OPfags, Jojofags and Narutofags can laugh at themselves and their series. But everytime someone criticizes Fate, Fatefag lashes on as "SECONDARY BOOGEYMAN" yada2. If your VN is so good and flawless, why afraid of secondaries? What's wrong with getting onto the series from FZ anime, or Deen/UBW anime, or even FExtra PSP game?
>>
>>146754614
Gil is not the best when it comes down to fighting skills, but that doesn't mean he's unskilled.
He does know how to use his weapons, as shown by him being able to keep Saber at bay during their first confrontation during Fate route. All he did was use different weapons to keep her at a distance.

He also managed to beat Lancer (though, sadly, this one battle wasn't shown). In UBW he did the right thing when fighting Berserker.

UBW is a good counter to Gilgamesh's sword spam, but what gave Shirou the victory was Gilgamesh being arrogant enough to allow Shirou to take the battle close to him, and then to be retarded enough to try to pull a weapon he shouldn't have.

On the other hand, Saber beat him fair and square by using the best defence there is (Avalon) - he even took this defeat with grace. In Sakura's case, he got eaten for thinking she had been disposed of.
>>
>>146755524
>Why are Fatefags so defensive about their series?
Because it's a popular target for shitposters.

>Why can't you guys take any ounce of criticism?
Most criticism that gets posted about Fate is based off of false information.

>If your VN is so good and flawless, why afraid of secondaries?
Because no matter how good it may be, plenty of people are illiterate fucks who refuse to read or have shit reading comprehension and critical thinking skills.
>>
>>146750371
I don't know,maybe because the first hero in the history of mankind was defeated by a teenage boy
>>
>>146755693
>I don't know,maybe because the first hero in the history of mankind was defeated by a teenage boy

This. Not even through planning and smarts. Straight out hax chunni power. If this doesn't cement Shirou as shit MC, and Fate writing in general as dogshit I don't know what is
>>
>>146755758
>planning and smarts
Read the thread.
>>
>>146755758
>Not even through planning and smarts. Straight out hax chunni power.
Read the thread, shitposter.
>>
>>146755457
It doesn't really matter, because the way Iskander acts is perfectly in character.

The thing is, that in Zero, he's babied by the narrative like no other character. While everyone else gets their face smashed right against a Kobayashi Maru scenario to test out their personal philosophies, Iskander is comfortably kept out of any situation in which he would have to prove that "do whatever the fuck you feel like and hope it'll inspire other people to do great things" is an actual philosophy that has anything to do with being a King, instead of an Underpants Gnome bunch of bullshit that's just an excuse for his hedonism. He even gets conveniently saddled with Waver, a Master who's completely useless at challenging in any way so there's no risk of anyone going "wait, that logic's got massive fucking holes in it".

In Zero Accel, he's simply shown a practical scenario where doing whatever felt right at the time instead of maybe behaving like a rational person for five minutes would risk the destruction of the world. Lo and behold, he stays true to his philosophy and nearly burns down the fucking world because he just had an itch for fighting at that particular moment.

So he's in character, it's just that this time there's no smoke and mirrors to make him look good.
>>
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>Executor vs DA master in F/SF
>Maiya's son
>Van-Fem's "pupil"
Holy shit. lools like SF has best parts from Nasuverse.
>“Against this level of Dead Apostle, you will have to use consecrated specialized weapons, or possess anomalies like mystic eyes or beast transformation, or be a high level magus, otherwise they can’t be dealt with
VN about werewolves when?
>>
>>146750371
UBShit is the worst route with worthless Rin enabling manchild Shirou. That's your explanation for all the crap.

Read HF if you want epicness.
>>
>>146755901
It's written by Narita, what did you expect?
>>
>>146755847
He did at least manage to save Kariya and Sakura.
>>
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>>146755907
Heh. Can't tell which side you're trying to falseflag for here. Well done.
>>
>>146755901
Honestly, that part just sounded cringeworthy as shit.

>"He's the son of THAT character!"
>"Who had nothing to do with mages originally, but he got involved with them somehow throug circumstances unrelated to how his mother got involved with a mage!"
>"And he's connected to a completely unrelated other special character!"

Just have him be Van-Fem's pupil and that's all. Trying to tie him into Maiya for added lore ties is bullshit far-fetched reaching. This is "Prisma Shirou conveniently developed the exact same abilities and personality despite his background having several important deviations" sort of implausibility.
>>
>>146753859
HOW IS FATE THIS HARD TO UNDERSTAND FOR YOU PEOPLE? Gil lowering his guard against a human of this time is perfectly reasonable, and him not lowering his guard as much against other Servants and people of his era also makes sense. It's literally another part of his fucking character for him to wank his past.
>>
>>146756015
Maybe he's just being honest. Fate and UBW are shit, the MC didn't learn/develop his character at all and the writer just encourage Shirou's retardery.

HF is 60% stay in kitchen, love triangle drama and nasty sex. The other 40% are bearable, Is it worth the price of admission of wasting 80 hours of your life? Probably not.

FSN is a mistake. Just slog through it as guilty pleasure and then you can meme on it here
>>
>>146756162

>secondary acting like he's read it

Classic secondary antics, I love it
>>
>>146755847
>do whatever the fuck you feel like and hope it'll inspire other people to do great things
This was proven with Waver though. So it actually worked.
>>
tangentially related, but the whole moralfag-who-can't-do-shit archetype is getting about as bad as the standard beta-power-fantasy MCs

Maybe I'll just too much of an edgelord for popular anime
>>
>>146756162
>the MC didn't learn/develop his character at all
Read it without being illiterate this time.
>>
>>146755803
>>146755811
Implying the whole reason he could use ubw in the first place wasn't a hax chunni power up.
At least in heaven's feel it made some sense.
>>
>>146756269

Having memories, including skills, transmitted psychically between a person from the past and a person from the future if they ever meet isn't chuuni, anon, it's classic sci-fi
>>
>>146756084
There's nothing inconsistent about a child with no connection to magi randomly being a magus. This has been very firmly established even before FSN.

>Prisma Shirou conveniently developed the exact same abilities and personality despite his background having several important deviations
He developed those powers because he literally summoned and merged with EMIYA using himself as a catalyst, and then started to copy EMIYA's abilities much like UBW Shirou did.
>>
I satisfied with Angelica battle with Shirou in the manga.
>>
>>146756250
Who are you talking about?
>>
>>146756341
>Having memories, including skills, transmitted psychically between a person from the past and a person from the future if they ever meet isn't chuuni, anon, it's classic sci-fi
>Classic sci-fi
>""""Science""""" fiction

HAHAHAHA Fatebabies.

You know what sci-fi is? Star Trek, Aliens, Star Wars, Cowboy Bebop, GITS, Akira. Those are sci-fi.

You can't seriously look at pic related and say it's not Chuuni "sealed dragon in my right eye" tier power fantasy
>>
>>146756229
>This was proven with Waver though.

The thing the novel tries to pass off as Waver actually doing anything worthwhile for once is him shutting up and holding back his anger in front of Gilgamesh for the sake of surviving.

So basically, doing the opposite of what Iskander's philosophy dictates he ought to do. That's how it all works: the narrative pretends results that in no way can be attributed to Iskander' philosophy arise from it. The actual adult Waver acts nothing like him at all, the whole thing just clumsily pretends his shit makes sense when everyone who actually achieves anything worthwhile does so by doing shit he wouldn't do.

Even his background is used like this: he had successes in life, so his philosophy must be correct. Nevermind that his successes were taken from historical fact and the Urobuchi character was written on top of it. He says Iskander is successful, then writes a personal philosophy, and simply pretends the latter led to the former without ever showing a clear process from one to the other. The one time he's forced to write a situation where Iskander has to follow through all the way to the result chronologically, the result is that Iskander getting his way would have been the worst possible outcome for everyone in the entire history of humanity.

I don't think you get a more conclusive condemnation of his methods than "would help wipe out humanity for shit s and giggles."
>>
>>146756597
Oh god why does this sound so cringeworthy and I am not talking about the pic. Fucking kill yourself.
>>
>>146756597

The chant has nothing to do with how he became able to use UBW. Your post has nothing to do with mine, but nice try.
>>
>>146756597
>Star Wars
>not chuuni shit
It's half High Fantasy, half samurai movie, IN SPAAAAAACE.

And I fucking love it, but calling it sci-fi is bullshit.

Also your taste in sci-fi is pretty fucking entry-level.
>>
>>146756473
Shirou a bitch
>>
>>146756767
I'm saying the concept of UBW's existence in general is chuuni power fantasy
>>
>>146756341
So,you do admit it doesn't make sense regarding the content of the story.
Let's not go to the part of why he can use ubw in the first place,his future self's ultimate technique which he acquired by making a contract with literally god.
>>
>>146756412
>There's nothing inconsistent about a child with no connection to magi randomly being a magus.

I didn't say anything about inconsistency.

This is a random kid who JUST SO HAPPENS to be Maiya's son who JUST SO HAPPENED to have magic circuits and who despite being taken by some random guerilla JUST SO HAPPENED to come into contact with a super important vampire who JUST SO HAPPENED to recruit him and JUST SO HAPPENED to get him involved in a conflict that's vaguely connected with the mother he has no way of knowing anything about.

There's no inconsistency, there's an assload of extremely fucking unlikely coincidences.
>>
>>146756597
>"""""
This is just detector for /v/ shitposters or retards
>>
since we're asking stupid shit that happens in fate

Why couldn't lancer Gae Bolg to victory? Why do they rarely use their noble phantasms at all? Why does shirou of all people get 2 three ways?
>>
>>146755907
Sakura >> the rest, always.
>>
>>146750844
This, they get one of the best looking adaptations of all time and they still fucking complain, we berserk fans would be so satisfied if we had anything like the ufotable adaptations.
>>
>>146756883
He's not Van-Fem's pupil. Francesca was
>>
>>146756693
I don't get where you are even going with this? Iskander followed on his philosophy and Waver became great. I don't remember Waver ever adopting his philosophy.

>He says Iskander is successful, then writes a personal philosophy, and simply pretends the latter led to the former without ever showing a clear process from one to the other
Because Heroes are always right that's kind of the point. You actually think people would have accepted a very cute and very small girl as their King?
>>
>>146756920
The directing was garbage. At least with Berserk, everyone knows it's a shit adaptation. We have to deal with countless Zero Secondaries.
>>
>>146756992
>The directing was garbage
But that's not true. Unless you're cookingpriest
>>
>>146756857
>which he acquired by making a contract with literally god.
Not exactly.

Reality Marbles are generally not something "acquired," they're something "developed." Rare scenarios exist where control of a Reality Marble can transfer from one individual to another, but those individuals seem to need to be VERY closely related on a spiritual level. 99% of the time, a Reality Marble is created just by someone having a strong enough understanding of themselves that their "inner world" is well-developed enough to do anything, and by that person having enough prana to keep it up when Gaia is trying to tear it down.
>>
>>146756799
>but calling it sci-fi is bullshit
Star Wars is arguably THE biggest sci-fi franchise in 20th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_in_Film:_The_Greatest_Movies_of_Our_Time#Best_Sci-Fi_Film

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_in_Film:_The_Greatest_Movies_of_Our_Time#Best_Sci-Fi_Film

Every motion picture association known to man recognize it as sci-fi. You as a fucking Fatebabby NEET on cambodian basket weaving imageboard doesn't get to redefine the sci-fi genre and call star wars NOT sci-fi while Fate IS sci-fi. This is autism on whole new level.
>>
>>146750371
It's just butthurt Zerobabies who think Gil is unbeatable because their broskander field to beat him.
>>
>>146757081
Why are you here /v/tard?
>>
>>146757081
That was a poll of the general public. The general public doesn't understand the difference between Science Fiction and Science Fantasy.
>>
>>146757081
the only time I've ever heard someone refer to SW as not being scifi was on reddit many years ago. Their argument was that "a long time ago in galaxy far, far away" was synonymous with "once up on a time" and that SW was closer to fantasy than scifi
>>
>>146757157
>muh /v/ boogehman when BTFO

FateBABBY everyone
>>
>>146753414
Saber never dodged a proper TG.
>>
>>146757081
And no one even called Fate sci-fi, they just pointed out that Shirou getting Archer's memories is nothing even close to new in fiction.
>>
>>146755642
Well said. Pretty much summarized typical Fate "criticism".
>>
>>146757183
I'm not even him. Just read your own posts. They're full of buzzwords and """""". What next? t.? kys?
>>
>>146757060
I'm not asking you to explain to me what is what.
The reality marble thing is as close as it gets to the real magic,which is the whole point of why the grail war is taking place,and it was achieved by a boy who's not even a magus through some bullshit means.
>>
>>146757212
>And no one even called Fate sci-fi, they just pointed out that Shirou getting Archer's memories is nothing even close to new in fiction.

What is >>146756341
Name another sci-fi that contains "Having memories, including skills, transmitted psychically between a person from the past and a person from the future if they ever meet" in any sci-fi ever.
>>
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>>146750744
>>
>>146757374
>What is >>146756341
It's pointing to a specific trope and don't you dare fucking link me to TVtropes, that's a legitimate use of the word and calling IT sci-fi.
>>
>>146757470
So name me a sci-fi media with that trope. If it's a sci-fi trope it should be easy right?
>>
Sure sucks when /vg/ Fatefags come back to have a discussion. It's like an Echo chamber of the same shit they discussed 10000X times. You guys should seriously seek some help on this.
>>
>>146757575
/vg/ generals are akin to subreddit, they're massive echo chamber, isolated pool of small fishes.

Fatefags can't accept any criticism from people outside of their Fate bubble who doesn't have a Saber shrine and doesn't jerk off to Rin's anus
>>
>>146756992
>The directing was garbage

Fate fags need to be purged.
>>
What is even the problem with calling something chuuni? I feel that by challenging the assuption that is chuuni instead of challenging the implication that chuuni is inherently bad just gives the high ground to the shitposter.

A lot of that stuff is really bad but because a lot of copy-cats have turned it into a parody of itself and not a problem with the subgenre.
>>
>>146757660
>>146757575
Just because your opinion is different doesn't make it valid, when so many holes can be poked in it that you have to abandon an argument to go right back to the same shitposting bullet points.
>>
>>146756857
>his future self's ultimate technique which he acquired by making a contract with literally god.

What the fuck are you talking about? Are you some retard secondary who thinks the Counterforce is God, and that it gave Shirou his RM? Because you're retardedly wrong on both accounts.

>it was achieved by a boy who's not even a magus through some bullshit means.

Out of curiosity, what are you claiming those means are?
>>
>>146757315
>achieved by a boy who's not even a magus through some bullshit means.
Shirou is a magus though and he got UBW the same way Archer did, through sword autism.
>>
>>146757824
Calm down.
>>
>>146756961
>Because Heroes are always right that's kind of the point. You actually think people would have accepted a very cute and very small girl as their King?

I have no idea what the fuck you're even saying.

Again, when put in a situation where Iskander's actions can actually a have consequences, he literally kickstarts the obliteration of the world. That's pretty fucking good confirmation that his philosophy is nonsense and that anything good that comes out of it it random chance, because his philosophy means jumping straight into causing the Apocalypse if it's necessary to fulfill his current whims. There's no actual logic behind it, just random fucking chance that it sometimes turns out well because other, better people clean up after him.

This is things working out in spite of him, not because of him.
>>
>>146757573
>>146757374
>So name me a sci-fi media with that trope.
Still waiting here Fatebabby
>>
Wait /vg/ Fate Go is still running with fags discussing Fate there? I was sure that by now everyone would have gotten bored of that shit.
>>
>>146758109
Just pointing out the transparent shitposting attempts for all to see.
>>
>>146758170
>>146757824
Not even the same anon
>>
>>146758170
But anyone with half a brain would know that it was shitposting. This hand holding nature is what is wrong with /a/.
>>
>>146758152
Why would you think that? It gets regular updates with both the main plotline and stand-alone event plots.
>>
>>146758228
>anyone with half a brain
You overestimate the average 4chan user in the current year.
>>
>>146756961
>Iskander followed on his philosophy and Waver became great.

Attributing the latter to the former is nonsense, especially when Waver never actually became great by following anything Iskander set forth. In fact, he lives in bitter frustration because he hasn't become great at all, and his one outstanding area is due to his ability to teach following traits he already had. Even as Zhuge Liang he's very specific about half the shit he does even as a planner only being thanks to Zhuge, and that he's still scared shitless of the power he wields since it's completely beyond him.

You're doing the same thing the story does: attributing results to Iskander that he shouldn't be credited with.
>>
>>146758249
Because I was there when translation on that was nonexistent and it didn't seem like it was going to pick up.
>>
>>146758311
Dumb EOP.
>>
>>146758286
Why would you spoonfeed them though? Why are you lowering yourself to their level?
>>
>>146758625
Sometimes being smugly superior isn't worth the potential future shitposting.
>>
>>146751505
>That's the whole point, he only realized he was fucked once Shirou had such a big advantage on him that he no longer had time to do anything.
Pretty sure he could have worn his armor in less time.

Also, what about his shields, submarines, nukes, guns, spaceship, etc?
>>
>>146758308
>attributing results to Iskander that he shouldn't be credited with.
Why not? He showed Waiver actual friendship. Waiver became stronger after his death, that's a fact. Being chaotic is not wrong.
>>
>>146750371
I don't really have a problem with it. Though, that fight was stupid in the anime. Shirou's advantage over Gilgamesh was poorly displayed. Shirou shouldn't have deflected most of the swords with some random swords. UBW was literally the only chance he had to defeat Gil, yet anime made him appear like some S Tier servant who's on part with Lancer when it comes to deflecting projectiles...

CQC version in the VN is far better and more believable.
>>
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GUYS GUYS

Just remember. Servants remember what they did in HGWs sort of like books on a shelf that you can reopen anytime.
And multiple timelines doesn't matter to the Throne of Heroes.

>Gilgamesh will forever remember that he got rekt by a ginger
>>
>>146758741
Are you trolling or just stupid? He didn't have time to bend his arm slightly to pull a hilt.

No, really, give me a good explanation of how using any of that would be quicker than "reaching slightly behind him" and "stepping back beyond the reach of a sword swing", two actions that are conclusively proven to have been too slow to succeed at that point.
>>
>>146758741
No time. Ignoring the anime which simply made it look more fabulous, Shirou forced Gil into a close quarters combat.
It wasn't that Gil didn't, it was that he couldn't.

Dunno about the armor though. Chalk that up as Gil being Gil or some other obscure reason why he didn't.
>>
>MC just happened to have the right power to counter the last boss
>>
>>146759043
What a Servant remembers seems to depend entirely on what Nasu or whoever else is writing wants them to.

Hell, even in FGO Gil doesn't seem to remember any of FSN or CCC.
>>
>>146759165
That's because Fate/GO is trash and completely random.

>>>/vg/
>>
>>146759221
Go be mad somewhere else. FGO is canon.
>>
>>146758904
>Being chaotic is not wrong.

Except when it destroys humanity. Are we clear on that? Given the choice to use his brain, or be a hedonistic retard, Iskander kills everyone that lives, has ever lived or will ever live in this planet. Let me just say that again in case it's not clear: given the very explicit choice to not fight someone who doesn't want to fight him, or pick a fight that will bring no tangible benefit to anyone alive because it will cause there to NOT BE ANYONE ALIVE, he picks the latter because he just felt like fighting.

Twice. Did I mention this happens twice? He does the same thing in Septem, that time only because apparently it was a quicker way of striking a chat with Nero than "sending a fucking messenger."

That's the level of "absolutely none of this is well thought out" we're talking about. He doesn't do what he does because he thinks it's best, that's just bullshit the story spews. He does whatever he feels like and only under very specific circumstances and coincidences that ends up turning out less that horrifyingly. The very fact that Zero pretends that he can debate with Arturia and Gilgamesh is insulting. They have plans to lead to the betterment of people/humanity, he has flimsy excuses for his hedonism.

You have to be a blind fanboy to attribute Waver's vague sense of self improvement to Iskander and say it in any way justifies his philosophy as being a legitimate matter of kingship.
>>
>>146758311
Translations are now more or less common, but it has gone worse on the repetitive shitposting so at the end is probably the same experience as before.
>>
>>146751193
Fatefags are here as long as naruto and bleach fags, whats your point?
It doesnt make fate any better
>>
>>146759252
FGO can fuck off.
>>
>>146759444
Except that contrary to them, Fate was actually a real part of the board like Rozen Maiden or Nanoha were. It has only grown to be this shitpsting mess because it became too popular in the west after Zero anime.
>>
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>>146756015
k-kek
>>
>>146759463
FSN can fuck off too.

For me the canon one is FZ -> FSN Tiger dojo #2 ending 3 hours into Fate route.
>>
>>146759400
To be fair, even the guy who wrote it thinks Septem is garbage.

>>146759444
Type-Moon is up there with Eva as one of the things /a/ has been talking about for as long as /a/ has existed. If you have a problem with that, then you should be the one to leave /a/, not the other way around.
>>
>>146759400
Oh god more Fate/GO shit. Dude that's his personality and it worked for him that's the point, his gut feelings alone got him everything he wanted. He isn't suppose to think but do what his heart tells him. I am not a fanboy but you sure sound mad.
>>
>>146759596
>>146759546
>muh chinese cartoon is older than yours, so you should fuck off my sekrit club
>>
>>146759661
>Waaah waaaaah I don't like thing, so thing needs to fuck off because everything needs to conform to my desires
Fuck off tumblr.
>>
The Gil fight has always felt like the victory lap for me, in UBW at least.
>>
>>146759400
>Iskander kills everyone that lives, has ever lived or will ever live in this planet

I'm not really following FGO's plot, but didn't Solomon destroy everything already?
>>
>>146759596
>>146759546
>this delusion
Fate was always shat upon but fatefags never realized this.
Just look at the shonenfags currently thriving on this board.
>>
>>146759801
It still has the potential to be undone as long as the Singularities get fixed.
>>
There were just less people back then who read fate when it was just a vn.
Fatefags just constantly circlejerked in their threads.
Its nowhere near being a part of /a/
>>
>>146759980
>Its nowhere near being a part of /a/
>He doesn't remember GAR
>He doesn't know a cat is fine, too
>>
>>146750371
The whole thing was kinda fucked writing wise.

For Shirou to win, Gil had to be restricted to
>Can't have his armor
>Can't use Enkidu
>Can't use any of his special weapons for their abilities
>Can only sword spam from range or swing a sword never both or any creative use
>Can't think of doing any of the above before reaching for Ea
Simply put, even if Gil obeyed the restrictions for arbitrary reasons, when Gil abandoned his pride to reach for Ea, he had numerous options instead or alongside reaching for his ultimate weapon. Enkidu being one. As shown after the fight, Shirou was unable to escape a single chain. Gil could've very easily restrained him once he abandoned his pride, or summoned his armor which Shirou couldn't cut through, he also had the option of shooting swords at Shirou while he grabbed Ea. Or all of the above.

Gil also has the ability to choose where exactly items from his treasury come out, frequently seen when he uses Enkidu, he also has the option of using GoB like that. Shirou wouldn't be able to project enough quick enough if Gil surrounded him at close range.

But despite Gil abandoning his pride to reach for his ultimate weapon, one he would only use on truly worthy opponents, he arbitrarily decided to do none of the above. Instead leaving himself in a state where Shirou could cut his arm off because...why? There is absolutely no explanation for that because at the moment Gil decided to use Ea, he decided to be serious. But it's all waved off with
>He wasn't serious
while like I've mentioned multiple times, trying to pull Ea = Serious full power mode
>>
>>146759801
This is caused by the Singularities imploding, so you go to each one and solve the cause of the implosion.

One of them is caused by the birth of Angra Mainyu during a possible 4th Fuyuki war. Waver deduces that the process will start once less than three Servants are left.

With four Servants left (three, as far as Iskander knows, because he thinks he left Lancelot to die) Iskander decides that he really wants to fight Waver, knowing full well that whether he kills any of you, or you kill him, that'll be one dead Servant too many. Oh, also, you're humanity's last hope regardless of that Singularity, so your death means everything's fucked anyway.

Long story short, an evil corrupted Justeaze with the powers of the Grail ends up emerging and you only just barely manage to kill her and stop Angra Mainyu with the help of an absolutely tip-top shape Arturia fuelled by an Irisviel who herself has Grail-level powers, Diarmuid, Mashu, Zhuge Liang and Counter Guardian Kiritsugu all fighting together.
>>
>>146759980
If Type-Moon was nowhere near being part of /a/ then nothing besides Code Geass, Eva and Yotsuba was ever part of /a/.
>>
>>146760072
>and Counter Guardian Kiritsugu
That part still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
>>
>>146760032
>when Gil abandoned his pride to reach for Ea, he had numerous options instead or alongside reaching for his ultimate weapon

Which of them would have been quicker than "reach slightly behind him"? Because that was too slow.

>Enkidu being one

How exactly would that be quick enough?

Seriously, al these arguments read like the same missing-the-point pile of retard. Gilgamesh realized he was fucked far too late to do anything whatsoever.
>>
>>146760083
Code Geass, Eva and Yotsuba

Add Azumanga Daioh, TTGL, Berserk.
>>
>>146759629
What part of what you're saying is supposed to matter? You're basically confirming that it's all random gut chance, not the coherent, deliberate philosophy which Zero tries to pretend it is.
>>
>>146760072
>HS doing dumb shit in FGO

Everyone fucking does it in that game.
>>
>>146760292
Who else knowingly triggers the end of existence to fulfill a petty whim while the narrative tries to pretend he's a likeable character?
>>
>>146760223
>deliberate philosophy which Zero tries to pretend it is.
What?
>>
gilgamesh is hot
>>
>>146760335
The story telling in GO is partially comedic, I don't know why are being so butthurt about this specific event like it's a big deal.
>>
>>146760154
Using anything from his treasury he doesn't personally have to reach for would've been quicker. Especially because to reach for Ea he had to be stationary.

We've seen how quick Saber can materialize her armor. We've seen how quick Gil can bring out Enkidu for both Herc and Iskander fights. To stand there and reach for Ea without trying anything else, that is completely retarded writing wise.

If they wanted to make Gil lose an arm, then make him lose an arm before reaching for Ea. The arm loss could be the trigger to him deciding fuck this kid, not before. Gil has too many options ready at a moments notice to become serious but then lose his arm.
>>
>>146760433
That part of the Zero event wasn't comedic (Iri Rangers later on was the silly part) and Septem is part of the main plot.
>>
>>146760341
Iskander is put next to Arturia and Gilgamesh to debate their ways of being a King, as if they were in any way comparable. Except that two of them have actual plans that lead to desired results, while Iskander has excuses for why doing whatever he feels like at any given time is what a king should do. What's more, he completely dominates that entire discussion to the point that it's basically all his show where he declares his belief that by doing what he does, this will lead to greater prosperity as it inspires people.

This all conveniently skips over the fact that it's literally "I do whatever I feel like and other people retroactively make it a good thing" and even then is entirely dependent on someone else coincidentally doing good, which he is then nonsensically credited for. Turns out the whole "this leads to greater good" is wishful thinking reliant on the narrative fiat, not any actual logic, and that he's actually just a wilful retard who causes disasters whenever thing aren't conveniently set up for his whims to lead to good results.
>>
>>146760516
Yes but servants becoming your enermy for stupid reasons is something FGO does in plenty.
>>
>>146760083
Fate is a part of type moon
Some of the the type moon stuff is actually good, but fate is the most popular (now)on top of being shit.
Fatefags are and always were retarded and go to any length cooking up any excuses to cover up the tons of plotholes and asspulls and shirou wankery in general.
>>
>>146760455
>Using anything from his treasury he doesn't personally have to reach for would've been quicker.

Again, "reach behind him / step back" is too slow.

How much quicker are you saying? Because your only argument is that all these things would have been quick enough to stop a swing that was already in progress at the time, based on no real tangible evidence. Gil manifests his armor while Saber is charging at him, not when her sword is already centimeters from hitting him. Whatever he'd have to summon from the Gate would need to reach Shirou in time, and not get knocked off trajectory by Shirou's own barrage.

The easier answer is that all of this was too slow at that point as the situation suggests. But then you wouldn't be able to bitch about it.

>The arm loss could be the trigger to him deciding fuck this kid, not before

What difference does it make? He already felt that when he realized he could not win the melee.

>Gil has too many options
>>
>>146760433
There is nothing at all comedic about that section. If you think the plot is comedy, you have no fucking clue what you're talking about.
>>
>>146760562
Again, who does anything comparable to Iskander? Actually answer the question instead of going in circles.
>>
>>146760025
>cat is fine too
>related to fateshit
>>
>>146760725
It's Type-Moon, bitch.
>>
>>146760538
>Opinions
Cool.
>>
>>146760758
>"I have no rebuttal, say something random."
>>
>>146760609
>and go to any length cooking up any excuses to cover up the tons of plotholes and asspulls
Because shitposters, ESLs, and middle-school dropouts are always complaining about "plotholes" that aren't.
>>
>>146760738
Not fate, faggot
>>
>>146760809
Okay then do you think FSN is perfect?

If not, for the sake of impartiality and since you're such a master in the lore, give us one plothole that's actually a plothole
>>
>>146760809
>shitposters, ESLs, and middle-school dropouts are always complaining about "plotholes" that aren't.
funny, thats the general audience that wanks over fate
>>
Before I bother reading this thread, i'll ask: Is it just self insert-kun fighting everybody again?
>>
>>146760954
Not having plotholes doesn't make a narrative perfect. It's practically the base level of adequacy.
>>
>>146760987
No
>>
It's bad because the anime doesn't explain why he won in the way that the source does, with all the background knowledge and context leading up to it, it comes off as asspull in the anime
>>
>>146760954
A story not having gaping plotholes is basic narrative competence, not perfection. It sounds as if you're just fishing for reasons to bitch about, not actually discussing the work itself.
>>
>>146760954
Not him but plotholes are a terrible metric for judging narratives and stories, surely some can take away from a work when it's pretty bad but when you have a non linear Fantasy narrative like F/SN you're bound to come across some minor continuity errors.

The presence of a plot hole does not make something not amazing nor does the lack thereof make something amazing either.

But if you want one then Shirou tracing Caliburn in the Fate route is one of the worse ones.
>>
>>146761074
>But if you want one then Shirou tracing Caliburn in the Fate route is one of the worse ones.

What. How in cocksucking hell is Shirou exhibiting his trademark ability a plothole?
>>
>>146761105
I think he meant Caliburn killing Herc.
>>
>>146760674
>to stop a swing that was already in progress at the time
Now, it's been many years since I've read the VN, but I'm almost certain the swing wasn't in progress at the time he decided to pull Ea out. The swing started precisely because he started to bring out Ea, which Shirou has no counter to. Considering how fast servants are compared to humans and he could manifest his armor while Saber was charging, he could bring it out before the swing would connect. That would be plenty of time to Enkidu as well, even if it was just a single chain.

That's the problem with it. It wasn't too slow for any of it. He had time to pull Ea out of his treasury and grab it before his arm got cut off. He had time before beginning to draw Ea as well, had he chose his armor or chains, both the smarter and more obvious choice, they had plenty of time.

If he decided to become serious after he lost his arm, then it would be more forgivable. Whether he summoned his armor, pulled Ea out, readied his chains, readied a massive GoB barrage, none of it would matter as he was going to get sucked into his arm, none of his options would matter at that point. He could prepare to fuck the entire world and it wouldn't matter because he's gonna get grailed.
>>
>>146760609
Yeah okay. You probably also think Shirou is a selfinsert.
>>
>>146760987
Yes
>>
>>146761150
Not him but yeah Shirou's a self insert
>>
>>146761150
Not him, but its pretty obvious he's meant to be a self insert
>>
>>146761140
>but I'm almost certain the swing wasn't in progress at the time he decided to pull Ea out. The swing started precisely because he started to bring out Ea

Shirou explicitly says he's swinging nonstop because he can't let Gilgamesh catch any breaks. He's just switching weapons on the fly because he can will them into his hands in an instant.

>It wasn't too slow for any of it

Again, there is absolutely no metric for you to say this, you're just claiming it is. It's all the same thing "the story says it'd be too slow, but I say it wouldn't be because this other thing I cannot accurately measure to compare happened."

>He had time to pull Ea out of his treasury and grab it before his arm got cut off.

No he didn't. His arm got cut off before he even reached the hilt. "Move arm slightly behind him and close hand" was way too slow at that point.

>If he decided to become serious after he lost his arm, then it would be more forgivable.

Why? What difference would it make if he were slightly more of a retard and it had taken him longer to realize he walked into a trap?

>as he was going to get sucked into his arm

His arm getting cut off had fuck-all to do with that, it's because Saber had destroyed the manifested Grail at that point.

You seem to not remember any of the important details and are just saying "these things would have been quick enough because I say so."
>>
Why do only fatefags go to such lenghts in defending their piece of shit?
Other show-fags would just call you a faggot and tell you to fuck off if you shitpost without providing reasons.
Only fatefags call the people disliking fate newfags/ESLs/secondaries to such lengths I've never seen anywhere else.
Is it because their precious vn is actually shit?
>>
>>146761429
Fuck off faggot.
>>
fate/stay night
is garbage
>>
>>146761618
because?
>>
>>146761429
>Is it because their precious vn is actually shit?
It's because they self insert super hard as the MC to go on chuuni adventure and fuck the waifus, hence they take it personally when someone criticize their beloved bible
>>
Fate/Zero is the only good thing in this shitty franchise
>>
>>146761632
Shameless waifu pandering.
Too wordy, too many repetitive monologues.
>>
>>146750371
>>146750371
Yo didn't this fucking series air like 10 years ago, why are people still waiting it? Did a new series come out or something?
>>
>>146761686
Carnival Phantasm and Prisma Ilya are good too
>>
>>146761371
>"the story says it'd be too slow, but I say it wouldn't be because this other thing I cannot accurately measure to compare happened."
The story can't be trusted with what is too slow or not because of how many asspulls there are. Every other situation tells me that Gil had plenty of time to materialize his armor or use Enkidu.
>"Move arm slightly behind him and close hand" was way too slow at that point.
You're disregarding the time it takes to pull Ea from his treasury. Anything he is personally going to wield takes longer than anything he wishes to shoot. It can't launch Ea out of the treasury like it can Enkidu because Gil has to be able to grab Ea. Gil doesn't have to grab the chains.
>What difference would it make if he were slightly more of a retard and it had taken him longer to realize he walked into a trap?
I've explained that multiple times and don't feel like explaining it again.
>>
>>146761632
plotholey fights that relies too much on hax asspuls
>>
>>146761702
unlimited blade works was only 2 years ago.
>>146750371
Because Gilgamesh has all his exp and all the real swords while Shirou lacks in exp and basically makes inferior copies of shit gilga has
>>
>>146761212
>>146761238
>Shirou
>self-insert
Is this what we've come to?

Rome deserves to burn at this point.
>>
>>146761857
>Shirou is not a self-insert meme
Just grow up.
>>
>>146761688
None of those things are bad.
You literally just listed things you subjectively don't like that you think are objectively bad

>>146761789
I'll give you that for the anime but not VN.
>>
>>146761897
But he's not a self-insert.
>>
>>146761686
Zero is worse than FSN.
>>
>>146761938
He is a goddamn self-insert. Even fucking Nasu says so himself.
>>
>>146762000
Wait that'd be great. Post quote.
>>
>>146761212
>>146761238
yeah because we are all emotionally stunted moralfags that still want to be super heroes. The only "self insert" part is that you too will have the desire to bang all the women he bangs , which is true of any character that gets action.
>>
>>146762052
>Tsukihime and Fate are more about projecting yourself as the heroes, seeing through the eyes of Shiki and Shirou while experiencing adventurous scenarios, where the players should feel they have played a very fun game. Mahoutsukai no Yoru is played in the third person, the players can't project themselves onto any characters. They can't place their feelings on top of a character, but instead feel happy being in the position where they can over see the complicated story between the three main characters. To be happy not only about a particular character, but about the world view, this is how I intend it to be.
http://tsukikan.com/misc/the-secret-of-mahou-tsukai-no-yorus-birth.html
>>
>>146762052
>Nasu: In terms of the main topic, I hope people will feel like they have just watched a great movie after playing the game. Tsukihime and Fate are more about projecting yourself as the heroes, seeing through the eyes of Shiki and Shirou while experiencing adventurous scenarios, where the players should feel they have played a very fun game. Mahoutsukai no Yoru is played in the third person, the players can't project themselves onto any characters. They can't place their feelings on top of a character, but instead feel happy being in the position where they can over see the complicated story between the three main characters. To be happy not only about a particular character, but about the world view, this is how I intend it to be.

http://tsukikan.com/misc/the-secret-of-mahou-tsukai-no-yorus-birth.html

>>146762120
>yeah because we are all emotionally stunted moralfags that still want to be super heroes.
You're all emotionally stunted sad NEET who wants to go on chuuni adventure and given obligatory dark past (without actually experiencing it) so you can act more chuuni
>>
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>>146750371
Because Gil is best girl and Shirou didn't defeat her in the proper manner.
>>
>Gil refused to use Ea
>Gil refused to fully open his gates
>Gil refused to use Enkidu
>Gil refused to even wear his armour

UBW still the best route all around. HF had better individual moments but UBW was based.
>>
>>146762250
>>146762120
>You're all emotionally stunted sad NEET who wants to go on chuuni adventure and given obligatory dark past (without actually experiencing it) so you can act more chuuni
Just to add, yeah also fuck the waifus as part of self insert wish fulfillment. Shirou hold nothing against Shiki in term of obligatory chuuni dark past, and people still put themselves in Shiki's shoes so they can fuck Arcueid without feeling cucked by Shiki.

Just look at the amount of waifuism and Saber/Rin worship among Fatefags
>>
>Shirou is/is not a self-insert debate #472813
Abandon thread.
>>
Reminder that self-insertion =/= projecting yourself onto characters.
>>
>>146762585
Reminder that you are wrong. They are the same thing.
>>
>>146750371
'casue fangirls fawn over Gil and nobody, and I mean NOBODY fawns over Shirou.
>>
>>146763078
I fawn over Shirou.
>>
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>>146750371

because they hate shirou, not only he defeats their self-insert, he also fucks their shitty waifus.
>>
>>146751241
>Emyia with a blanket on his head

I cant belive anyone can take this terrible joke of a franchise even serious anymore. It get's more and more pathetic with each new installment.
>>
>>146760335
Urobuchi doesn't like it when people enjoy something. He intentionally writes characters that people like in a way so they become unlikable. If your feelings on a character are true then them acting like a fuckwit sometimes won't change how you view a character.
>>
>>146763572
Nigger that's Herc Alter.
>>
>>146760538
>I do whatever I feel like and other people retroactively make it a good thing

The phrase "The King laughs loudest" implies that the king is in fact capable of laughing loudest. His past history is an example of how his skill allowed him to take what he pleased while using his charisma and presence to inspire others. I think a comparison could be made with Griffith (though less evil and with more ham). Both hold leadership by being seen as above others primarily through their charisma. The main difference being that Griffith doesn't care about his followers as much as Iskander does.

>What's more, he completely dominates that entire discussion

In fairness, Saber and Gil both have had more time as characters, it would make sense in terms of a directing perspective to give the lesser character more presence for the viewer so that they can get a better feel of what the character is.
>>
>>146750371
Because it was not an actual victory.
1. Gilgamesh was being ganged up on by 3 people, one serving as a mana supply.
2. Gilgamesh was not even being serious in fighting like he was in other routes where he fights other Servants.
3. Gilgamesh did not have his Excalibur blocking armor, which would have effectively made him almost invincible and allow him to just bearhug you and kill you dead, because he can aim everywhere, and you have to aim only for his head.
It's one of the stupidest "wins" in FSN where one of the strongest Servants loses because he's stupid, when he's regarded as very smart in canon.
>>
>>146757081
*science fantasy
>>
>>146752087
Actually, Rank E is 10x the power of a normal human. Each rank after is another 10x.
>>
>>146760154
Nasu said Tohno Shiki would win a duel, so Tohno Shiki is stronger than Gilgamesh.
I really hate these anti-Gil faggots thinking Gil is a fucking scrub.
>>
>>146760674
>Again, "reach behind him / step back" is too slow.
Gilgamesh could still keep on grabbing swords while using the chain while retreating while donning on his armor.
Him going straight for Ea is the dumbest thing ever and Nasu said he was literally one of the smartest Servants around.
It took Nasu completely making him stupid to get him to lose.
>>
>>146761150
Technically, yeah.
(The Secret of Mahoutsukai no Yoru's Birth, Published in TYPE-MOON Ace 2, tsukikan.com/misc/the-secret-of-mahou-tsukai-no-yorus-birth.html)
>Nasu:
> Tsukihime and Fate are more about projecting yourself as the heroes, seeing through the eyes of Shiki and Shirou while experiencing adventurous scenarios, where the players should feel they have played a very fun game. Mahoutsukai no Yoru is played in the third person, the players can't project themselves onto any characters. They can't place their feelings on top of a character, but instead feel happy being in the position where they can over see the complicated story between the three main characters. To be happy not only about a particular character, but about the world view, this is how I intend it to be.
>>
>>146766023
>>146763500
Gil died like a bitch. I enjoyed it greatly cause of how unceremonious and indignant it is for that guy.
>>
>>146762585
But that's the same fucking thing. How can you honestly say that projecting yourself ONTO a character is not self-inserting? You're placing yourself in the story as the character with the two words.
>>
To be honest, when I found out that Nasu really made Fate as a self-insert game, I felt disgusted with myself. I thought I was just a shipfag for Saber, but actually just subconsciously waifu-ing her through the story.
Feels dirty, man.
>>
>>146751375
>>146751727
did you guys even read that fight in the VN? saber lost because she has never seen the fighting style before. and then after that they said saber wouldnt have lose the next time if they fought
>>
UBW is a reality barrier right? Then why don't Gilgamesh use Enuma Elish to negate UBW's effect if he could negate a Reality Barrier like Ionian Hetaroi? Its bullshit though.
>>
>>146762052
>>146761857
>>146761150
>>146761938
Completely BTFO
>>146766375
>>146762250
Goddamn cancerous fatefags making a thread full of their trashy ponos.
>>
>>146766023
its stupid but i would feel stupid and ashamed if i had to go all out on the failure name shirou
>>
>>146766592
That's what he probably was going to do, it just needs to start spinning first
>>
>>146766592
rider was cool and strong and shirou is shit and weak. and he only uses Enuma Elish on people he respects witch made that scene in fate zero even better
>>
>caring about the writing of a crappy ero VN this much

Just fap to girls and be done with it.
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKCCs9DNEJs

Who is the best waifu and why is it Seiba?
>>
>>146766704
So all these chivalry shit had costs Gil's death?
>>
It really baffles me that Saber who is supposed to be the strongest servant end up doing shit in UBW route. Abusing Avalon could've gave Saber the edge over her opponents. Like seriously though, how many times we actually saw Saber used Avalon in battle?
>>
>>146766757
No, it's his pride and wanted to go on a pissing contest with MUH ORIGINAL SHIT IS BETTER THAN YOUR FAKE SHIT.

Problem is Shirou traces stats+history of sword while Gil can't use them properly other than projectiles or a normal whacking weapon.
>>
>>146766757
Its more like arrogance, but yes. Gil loses in large part because of his personality.
>>
>>146766757
yes all he had to do was either kill him before they went into UBW or release Enuma Elish right off that bat or at a better opening. in that fight Gil lost his composure(right when he was going to use Enuma Elish) and shirou saw this and knew if he regain his composure he would die and wouldnt get a second chance so he kept attacking
>>
>>146766830
what do you mean history? im pretty sure shirou is better with a sword because the training with Saber and also with Taiga
>>
>>146766757
Yeah. This is one of the reasons why I find this fight inferior to the Nero fight in Tsukihime. When Nero fought Shiki, it was a full power fight. He fought Shiki more seriously than he fought Arcueid.
This one, Gilgamesh literally gave his opponent every single advantage you can give, and probably still would have won in the end had it not been 2 v 1.
>>
>>146766997
The training with Saber was actually useless. Auto downloads kinda do that.
>>
>>146767016
well yeah, shirou wouldnt have been able to open UBW then
>>
>muh blonde edgelord !
>his power is maximum !
>he cannot be beat !

crying babbies itt
>>
>>146766921
That's one thing I disliked with the UBW TV adaption, Shirou should have kept Gil in melee so he can't think straight.

The adaption gave Gil quite a breathing room compared to VN or movie one.
>>
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>>146750371
I blame zerofags mostly or maybe the Fate fanbase is just pretentious as fuck.

I mean the super powerful guy losing against the MC is nothing new whatsoever and there's even a proper in-universe explanation. Yet when it's this people cry like bitches.

It's quite annoying really.
>>
>>146767069
>self-insertfaggots angry people are using logic to critique faulty writing
>self-insertfaggots taking it personally because inserts
>>
>>146767034
well yeah mostly, it really just helped with sensing the intent to kill. didnt know it did that, like i knew he could tell what they did just didnt know his fighting would improve by it
>>
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>>146750371
>Shizuo meets Gilgameme
>IIIIIIIIIIIIIZAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
>Gilgameme jobs again

Would be nice
>>
>>146767108
>there's even a proper in-universe explanation
>that has flaws everywhere
Gil literally stops Servants from getting to him with his chain and he can't do it with a shit human?
>>
>>146767170
>Gil literally stops Servants from getting to him with his chain and he can't do it with a shit human?
Shirou is a normal guy, he has no divinity.

Gilgamesh's chains would just be repelled by UBW or even better, copied and used to chain him instead.
>>
>>146767081
yeah i also found the archer vs shirou fight have the same problem. like he was attacking nonstop so archer couldnt do anything but block and it made that scene better then the tv show
>>
>>146767223
But that's wrong you retard. Shirou never overwhelmed Archer in the VN.

Gilgamesh on the other hand he did.

UFO UBW made it so that UBW was all Shirou needed, when in the VN UBW is only useful to stop GoB from skewering while getting closer to Gil.

-Shirou stops GoB
-Procceeds to go melee and never step back because Gilgamesh would fuck him up
-ONOREONOREONOREONORE
>>
>>146767201
all non-weapons take a shitload more time and prana to make even in the RM
The chains appear from many directions, and this is shown multiple times.
Gil could still be striking with his blades even while he's using the chain.
Gil could also be donning his armor, effectively making his head the only vulnerable part of his body.
Even if the target has no divinity, it is still a very effective chain. Also, it took Berserker Herakles a long ass fucking time to cut it apart. How the fuck would a shit human do that?
>>
>>146767142
GilgaJOB
>>
>>146766375
At least Nasu was honest about making games with self-insert characters.
>>
>>146750371
Because throughout the entire premise we've been told that Masters can NEVER match up to the likes of Servants. In Fate Zero they actually keep to this rule but Stay Night is fucking retarded. I mean literally 2 days ago in this route, Shirou was getting BTFO by Kuzuki and then he goes onto beat Gilgamesh and the only excuse they have is "B-but muh Gilgamesh is arrogant". Unfortunately this fight alone destroyed this route's chances of being the best one.
>>
>>146767302
>all non-weapons take a shitload more time and prana to make even in the RM
No. He just needs to trace them like Rho Aias.

It doesn't take a shitload of time, it takes the time he uses to trace.

Swords are already there, everything else needs to be traced, and it uses double mana a sword would do.

>The chains appear from many directions, and this is shown multiple times.
So does GoB, 360º spam, UBW counters it.

>Gil could still be striking with his blades even while he's using the chain.
And Shirou would still be fighting while UBW automatically counters the chains. The whole point of UBW is that Shirou uses it to stop anything that comes out of GoB

>Gil could also be donning his armor, effectively making his head the only vulnerable part of his body.
He could also be using EA too right?

>Even if the target has no divinity, it is still a very effective chain.
First of all it would never touch him in the first place, again: UBW.
And no it's not, maybe against a normal human it is because it's a chain but not against Shirou who has enhanced strenght and speed.

>Also, it took Berserker Herakles a long ass fucking time to cut it apart.
Heracles has A rank divinity you fucking retard.


2/10 made me reply to your bait.
>>
>>146767383
>Because throughout the entire premise we've been told that Masters can NEVER match up to the likes of Servants.
Except that's not the case.

The entire premise is that this war IS DIFFERENT from previous wars.

>In Fate Zero they actually keep to this rule but Stay Night is fucking retarded.
Because Fate Zero characters are simply weak
>>
>>146754999
>Everyone thinks Shirou's the one who beat Gil, when it was all Archer's plan from the instant he got backstabbed by Gil.
But Archer is Shirou.
>>
>>146767271
i didnt say he overwhelmed him, shirou attackes where really sloppy and hes arms felt like he was going to tear off but he didnt stop and archer had to block and wasnt able to attack because to busy blocking so it gave him time to think about his old self and the promise with his dad. and in the VN shirou was in his face instead of being like 20 feet away like in the tv show
>>
>>146767489
Shirou in the VN was also using a cursed sword that literally makes you keep going until you're dead.

In the anime it was lol muh mini dual swords.
>>
>>146767401
The chain could be attacking at the same time that Gil is attacking. During spams, Gilgamesh can don his armor.

Grabbing Ea is different from his armor showing up. His armor just appears on him.

There is no enhanced strength and speed. The SWORDS move on their own.
>>
>>146767522
If we're going by the TV, he might have donned his armor easily since there was much breathing air.

If we're going by VN or movie, Gil can't just hey mongrel let me wear my armor since he was locked in close combat.

Chains are useless inside in UBW since it's gonna be sword spammed/countered.
>>
>>146767522
>The chain could be attacking at the same time that Gil is attacking.
Yes, which is what he's been doing during the entire fight? You do realize that while Gilgamesh and Shirou are fighting shit is clashing in the background right?

>During spams, Gilgamesh can don his armor.
Not while being scared that Shirou is unleashing a barrage of blows on his head he can't.
And protecting himself against a mongrel? Ha.
>>
>>146767424
>Because Fate Zero characters are simply weak
This has got to be the dumbest thing anyone's said on this thread.
>>
>>146767522
>The chain could be attacking at the same time that Gil is attacking. During spams, Gilgamesh can don his armor.
No he can't because Shirou is RIGHT THERE fighting him, he CAN'T PUSH SHIROU BACK BECAUSE UBW BLOCKS EVERYTHING HE THROWS AT THE GUY.

The entire point of UBW is countering GoB, the rest is left for Shirou who is better than Gil at melee and rational thinking to beat him.
>>
The real asspull about UBW is how suddenly Shirou is able to use Reality marble out of his ass.

In HF at least you could explaine that it's because he has Archer arm and for Miyu's Shirou it's because he got imprint from Archer card.
>>
>>146767512
i was pretty sure he was using them in the VN too. if im mistaken then thats pretty cool, for once shirou uses his brain
>>
>>146767581
>>146767595
The chains can't be useless because there will be spams countering the spam while Gil is attacking. If Gil just suddenly created a fucking barrier of chains right in front of him, that alone would have bought him the fucking time to wear his armor.

BUT LEL NO ONE OF THE MOST CRAFTY SERVANTS JUST DOESN'T THINK LIKE THAT
>>
>>146767659
Plot armor
>>
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>>146767608
>This has got to be the dumbest thing anyone's said on this thread.

Kariya throws bugs at people.. Sakura can impale you with shadow spears.

Kuzuki does pic related.

Waver can't even hypnotize that old family properly, he's literally garbage tier.

Ryuunosuke is weaker than loli Rin

Kiritsugu has... guns? Really?

Tokiomi throws fire, Rin can kill Heracles.

Kirei while being amped by Command Seals at best approaches low servant levels, Shirou can spam legendary swords.

The only real threat is wheels but Kuzuki would fucking assassinate him since muh magic rules
>>
>>146767643
HF out right says he can't use Archer's UBW because it isn't compatible with him so who knows if it's that simple.
>>
>>146767643
yeah, im sure it was because everytime he clashed swords with archer he learned stuff, prob because they have the same mana circuits
>>
>>146767659
Chains are only useful against divine shit.
A great number of his swords aren't divine shit.

Plus the moment he opens the gate to get it, it's gonna be shot by a sword.
>>
>create powerlevels where it could be avoided and wasn't necessary at all
>don't follow them at all
nasu is a double hack
>>
>>146767659
>The chains can't be useless because there will be spams countering the spam while Gil is attacking.
""""""""""""""""""""UNLIMITED"""""""""""""""""""


No matter how much shit gil puts out it will be countered because UBW has NO LIMIT.

> If Gil just suddenly created a fucking barrier of chains right in front of him
The gates get closed before the object even comes out, that happens during the entire fight. The only time when they clash mid-air is when Shirou stops it for the first time, the rest is just Shirou crushing gates.

UBW>GoB, that's a fact.
>>
>>146767699
Kiritsugu is a Mage Killer with Time Stop RM
Tokiomi has the entire Tohsaka family resources at his disposal.
Kirei who was dying, had no heart, and literally almost nothing left almost killed your legendary self-insert.
Kayneth was a prodigy and the only person who could beat him had a fucking gun that messes up mages.
Fucking Kiritsugu would kill all of the 5HGW Masters except Kuzuki with ease.
>>
>>146767727
>Plus the moment he opens the gate to get it, it's gonna be shot by a sword.
The chains fire from multiple directions.
All Gilgamesh had to do was fire his own volley.
>>146767757
There is clearly a limit because you do not end up just overwhelming Gilgamesh at the get go. If there truly was not a limit, Gilgamesh would not have been able to keep up. But he was able to. For a prolonged period of time.

Not minding the fact that Nasu said GoB can fire only 20 NPs at one time in Fate Prototype Material.
>>
>>146767799
>The chains fire from multiple directions.
the moment he opens the gate to get it, it's gonna be shot by a sword.
>>
>>146767623
Can Shirou block a submarine thrown at his face?

btw, did Gil use Vimana post Zero or was that ship completely destroyed by Berserker?
>>
>>146767729
Read FGO to see just how much.
>>
>>146767762
>Kiritsugu is a Mage Killer with Time Stop RM
>Time-Stop
No. And he can barely use Accel x2 without his heart exploding.

>Tokiomi has the entire Tohsaka family resources at his disposal.
Rin with one jewel blows him and his resources to hell

>Kirei who was dying, had no heart, and literally almost nothing left almost killed your legendary self-insert.
You mean when Shirou has literal swords stabbing his brain and needed to save one projection for the grail which is why he doesn't kill him with a projected sword?
>Kayneth was a prodigy and the only person who could beat him had a fucking gun that messes up mages.
And Kuzuki is a super assassin that doesn't follow any kind of rule, in fact the first thing Medea would do is deal with Hot wheels.
>Fucking Kiritsugu would kill all of the 5HGW Masters except Kuzuki with ease.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

How is he going to kill Shirou when the guy can sense Lancer and Archer's arrow before even knowing how to use his magic?

How is he going to stop Kuzuki from crushing him?

How is he going to stop Rin from nuking him?

Illya knows everything about him and she's itching to kill him.
>>
>>146767799
>The chains fire from multiple directions.
So do the unlimited blades.
>>
>>146767824
Except that Gil can just shoot down that sword instead. Like >>146767799 says, IF UBW was actually unlimited, then Gilgamesh would have been immediately overwhelmed at the first strike. If it is truly infinite, then Gilgamesh, who can only attack 20 NPs at a time, could have been killed by 1000 NPs in an instant.

But that can't happen because it did not happen. The fucking battle says you are hard-pressed already and doing the best you can just matching Gilgamesh at that point.

If Gilgamesh can only attack with 20 NPs at one moment, that means you can only counter with a max of 20 at a moment as well.
Then just fucking summon Enkidu at the same time you attack with 20 NPs.
That fact that it can attack from multiple points means you can effectively attack with more than 20 at one moment.
>>
>>146767833
>Can Shirou block a submarine thrown at his face?
Legendary swords>>Submarine

You're acting like he's projecting kitchen knifes
>>
>>146767659
The chains can't even get out of GoB fag, it's being shut down by UBW, and even if Gil tries to use it personally, it will be useless cuz its just a normal steel chain against NP swords + traced servant level stats of Shirou + the fact that Gil was never good at being in a pinch, he always wins in his legends with his best effort shown was against the bull and he wasn't even injured after beating it, discounting Enkidu cuz its just a skirmish and not a fight to death.
>>
>>146767875
blades get shot down by Gil's GoB
>>146767902
>>
>>146767699
>Kariya throws bugs at people.. Sakura can impale you with shadow spears.

Yeah when's she's cheating and has near infinite prana from the Holy Grail.

>Kuzuki does pic related.

When he's been buffed by Caster's magic, without it, he died instantly when he fought Archer.

>Waver can't even hypnotize that old family properly, he's literally garbage tier.

Better than Shinji at least.

>Ryuunosuke is weaker than loli Rin

No shit. The dude is just a sociopath serial killer and has practically zero knowledge on magic.

>Kiritsugu has... guns? Really?

>That could kill any other master if they were to be hit by them, which they would.

>Tokiomi throws fire, Rin can kill Heracles.

Firstly Rin was a born genius and secondly the point of how magic works in Fate is the next generation in the family is stronger than the previous, if Rin wasn't better, she would be a joke.

>Kirei while being amped by Command Seals at best approaches low servant levels, Shirou can spam legendary swords.

Yeah that are a grade lower than the original and needed to have sex with a first-class mage to even use UBW.
>>
>>146767762
>Kiritsugu is a Mage Killer with Time Stop RM
Magus Killing is mostly about strategy, not ability. Magi are extremely limited in their scope of planning, and utterly predictable on offense and defense.
Time Alter is not a reality marble, nor is it particularly useful without Avalon in full regeneration mode (i.e. Saber in the same building)
>Tokiomi has the entire Tohsaka family resources at his disposal.
And he's still mediocre.
>Kirei who was dying, had no heart, and literally almost nothing left almost killed your legendary self-insert.
Talking about HF's finale? Shirou was just as dead on his feet as Kotomine. His brain had discarded essentially everything and his very bones were becoming swords.
>Kayneth was a prodigy and the only person who could beat him had a fucking gun that messes up mages.
Kayneth is the very definition of a predictable magus.
>Fucking Kiritsugu would kill all of the 5HGW Masters except Kuzuki with ease.
Bazett's raw power and versatility (she's no ordinary magus) would thrash him with ease. No chance against Medea. He could beat Rin if she has no gems and Shirou at the start of each route, but Shirou at the end of UBW and HF is probably far too strong to reasonably kill. Rin with gems is a question mark, as she is extremely powerful and not predictable as a typical magus.
>>
>>146767902
>Except that Gil can just shoot down that sword instead.
Except he can't because UBW is superior to GoB, how is he going to outspeed it when the entire point is that UBW is faster?

>If it is truly infinite, then Gilgamesh, who can only attack 20 NPs at a time, could have been killed by 1000 NPs in an instant.
Because the moment Shirou retreats to make swords rain on Gilgamesh he puts his armor and he's fucked.

Which is why he needs to be raining blows at the guy during the entire fight without a break. The entire point of the fight is

1-UBW blocks GoB, now I can get into melee
2-Skewer him in melee since he'd rather play with his penis instead of training

Use your brain
>>
>>146767958
>Yeah when's she's cheating and has near infinite prana from the Holy Grail.
Her shadow magic is a natural part of her. She can utilize it normally, it's just not grossly distorted. This is what her shadow "giants" look like when she's not hooked up to the grail.


>Firstly Rin was a born genius and secondly the point of how magic works in Fate is the next generation in the family is stronger than the previous, if Rin wasn't better, she would be a joke.
Rin and Sakura's superiority over Tokiomi was because of Aoi's status as a Zenjou family member, who hold the special quality of maximizing magical potential within a bloodline.
>>
>>146767902
Fucking stupid.
>Except he can't because UBW is superior to GoB, how is he going to outspeed it when the entire point is that UBW is faster?
The point is that the chains can appear fucking everywhere. And that Gilgamesh can attack at the same time with another set of 19 NPs in that same moment. Since the chains can show up in more than one spot, that actually gives Gilgamesh more of a chance to overwhelm an enemy that clearly cannot attack faster than his 20 NP rate of attack.

Because if that was possible, 1000 Trace NPs would have killed him at the start, because Gil can only throw out 20 per moment.

So long as Gilgamesh gets that one moment of respite, either by creating a temporary barrier with Enkidu while attacking with GoB, then he gets his armor and game is over.

Apparently, the great tactical genius that Nasu gave Gilgamesh does not exist.
>>
>>146767958
>Yeah when's she's cheating and has near infinite prana from the Holy Grail.
She says that her magic is like that, she only takes things away from people.

Besides, bugs wouldn't attack Sakura. Kariya would just get eaten by his own bugs

>When he's been buffed by Caster's magic, without it, he died instantly when he fought Archer.
First of all it doesn't matter, he's always buffed.

And are you saying any Zero master can even touch Archer?


>Better than Shinji at least.
Yeah but Shinji would kill him while Waver would doubt.

>No shit. The dude is just a sociopath serial killer and has practically zero knowledge on magic.
Yeah

>>That could kill any other master if they were to be hit by them, which they would.
Who? How is he going to kill Shirou that can detect Lancer trying to kill him or Archer nuking him?

How is he going to kill Illya when she knows everything about him?

>Firstly Rin was a born genius and secondly the point of how magic works in Fate is the next generation in the family is stronger than the previous, if Rin wasn't better, she would be a joke.

So you agree.

>Yeah that are a grade lower than the original and needed to have sex with a first-class mage to even use UBW.
The same can be said about Kirei, being powered up by dozens of command seals to be good.
>>
>>146767799
>Not minding the fact that Nasu said GoB can fire only 20 NPs at one time in Fate Prototype Material.

>implying Proto Gil's Bab-Ilu = Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon
you are fucking retarded
Everything Gil shoots gets copied, Enkidu included, firing Enkidu wouldn't have helped.
>>
>>146767979
Time Alter IS a reality marble, you guys don't understand what RM is.
Reality Marble is the inner world available to EVERYONE, which can be based on the users mentality and origin, but only Top Dead Apostles and basically just 6 known mages(not counting Shirou) are capable of manifesting it by rewriting Gaia's RM with their own, which still require large amount of mana to maintain because Gaia is constantly erasing it.
tl:dr Everyone has their own mental or inner world(RM) but only very few humans can manifest it outside of their minds.
>>
>>146768105
>The point is that the chains can appear fucking everywhere. And that Gilgamesh can attack at the same time with another set of 19 NPs in that same moment. Since the chains can show up in more than one spot, that actually gives Gilgamesh more of a chance to overwhelm an enemy that clearly cannot attack faster than his 20 NP rate of attack.
UBW traces slightly faster than Gil fires.

>Because if that was possible, 1000 Trace NPs would have killed him at the start, because Gil can only throw out 20 per moment.
Proto Gil is not fucking Stay Night Gil. Stay Night Gil can fire hundreds at a time.

>So long as Gilgamesh gets that one moment of respite, either by creating a temporary barrier with Enkidu while attacking with GoB, then he gets his armor and game is over.
Enkidu gets traced and collides against itself, accomplishing nothing.

>Apparently, the great tactical genius that Nasu gave Gilgamesh does not exist.
Gilgamesh has limitless foresight, not the reason to obey this foresight. If he sees himself being defeated, he just laughs and discards the vision as impossible.
>>
>>146768105
>The point is that the chains can appear fucking everywhere
Just like UBW since it's a reality marble.

>And that Gilgamesh can attack at the same time with another set of 19 NPs in that same moment.
Who'd get countered just like the chains, as soon as the tip comes out the gate.

>Since the chains can show up in more than one spot, that actually gives Gilgamesh more of a chance to overwhelm an enemy that clearly cannot attack faster than his 20 NP rate of attack.
And unlimited swords block the chains coming from any kind of spot.

No matter how many Gates Gilgamesh opens Shirou will counter, Gil does a 360 spam and it's useless, it doesn't matter.

>Because if that was possible, 1000 Trace NPs would have killed him at the start, because Gil can only throw out 20 per moment.
He can throw much mroe than that.

>So long as Gilgamesh gets that one moment of respite, either by creating a temporary barrier with Enkidu while attacking with GoB, then he gets his armor and game is over.
Except he can't because his chains get blocked by UBW before coming out the gate.

Is it that hard to understand?
>>
>>146768130
Proto-Gil's Bab-llu does not have an attack limit, and Proto-Gil can use it while moving, and he can strike with from any direction he pleases.

Gilgamesh's GoB can only fire from one direction (excluding Enkidu) and has a rate of attack 20 NP/attack.

Enkidu wouldn't have been copied, because it's not a fucking sword. That is not what the RM is designed for. And while Enkidu is appearing fucking everywhere as one NP, he can be striking with 19, then 20, then 20 while Enkidu's still moving around, either to create a barrier for him to don his armor or restrain human shit.
>>
>>146768163
>Time Alter IS a reality marble
No it's not. It's a bounded field

Kiritsugu inherited it, Reality Marbles are unique to a person, Kiritsugu doesn't have a reality marble.
>>
>>146768105
>Gilgamesh tactical genius
Hey Gilfag, go read EVERY RELATED LORE about Gilgamesh(yes even his real life one) and tell me if he ever shown to have muh tactical genius your head canon have.
>>
>>146768163
>Time Alter IS a reality marble, you guys don't understand what RM is.
No, you are the one who does not have a clue here.
>Reality Marble is the inner world available to EVERYONE, which can be based on the users mentality and origin, but only Top Dead Apostles and basically just 6 known mages(not counting Shirou) are capable of manifesting it by rewriting Gaia's RM with their own, which still require large amount of mana to maintain because Gaia is constantly erasing it.
That's accurate enough, though calling the world-field generated by planet earth a "Reality Marble" is like comparing a lighter to the sun.
However, Time Alter is not Kiritsugu's internal world. Time Alter is the legacy magecraft of the Emiya clan of magi, it belonged to Emiya Noritaka before him. Kiritsugu's inner world likely has nothing to do with time, and he cannot represent it externally in any way whatsoever (like nearly everyone). Time Alter is just a magecraft that fiddles with reality, it is not a reality marble in any degree.
>>
>>146768174
Stay Night Gil is the one with the 20 NP limit
>>146768217
Read >>146768217

Also >He can throw much mroe than that.
No, Gil can attack 20 NP/attack. This means that he can attack 20 per shot. If that means every shot happens every .0001 seconds, that makes an illusion of throwing more than that.
>>
>>146768217
>And while Enkidu is appearing fucking everywhere as one NP, he can be striking with 19, then 20, then 20 while Enkidu's still moving around,
And then Enkidu gets shot down by NPs coming out of UBW.

Simple isn't it?


Enkidu appears= Gets blocked just like everything else that's been coming out the gate and didn't manage to get past UBW.
>>
>>146768240
> tell me if he ever shown to have muh tactical genius your head canon have.
Nasu interview in Comptiq, he gave it to him. Which is what makes this stupid.
>>
>>146768276
>And then Enkidu gets shot down by NPs coming out of UBW.
Enkidu can appear from many different directions, but is simply one NP and can be one of the 19 NP per shot that Gil has from GoB.
Since by process of elimination, UBW does not have the ability to go beyond Gil's 20 NP/shot limit, that means it cannot hit all of Enkidu's chain attacks when Gil attacks with his other 19 NPs.
>>
>>146768217
>Proto-Gil's Bab-llu does not have an attack limit, and Proto-Gil can use it while moving, and he can strike with from any direction he pleases.
>Gilgamesh's GoB can only fire from one direction (excluding Enkidu) and has a rate of attack 20 NP/attack.
Now you've just mixed them up, and I cannot comprehend why. Bab-Ilu can fire while moving in various directions, but is limited to its firing rate as he only has 10 portals to fire from. SN's Gate has no such limitation, but the portals don't move.

>Enkidu wouldn't have been copied, because it's not a fucking sword
Did you miss the part where Shirou traces Rho Aias, a shield? He can trace anything related to physical combat, you doofus. He is not locked into swords alone. Otherwise Gil would've won the second he brought out an axe or a spear. Shirou can trace those too.

>And while Enkidu is appearing fucking everywhere as one NP, he can be striking with 19
All of this gets traced and countered and accomplishes nothing.
>>
>>146768280
Nasu also gave him clairvoyance that let's him see the future if he uses it.

Except that if Gil sees anything that doesn't go along with his headcanon(like getting BTFO by Sakura or Shirou) he'd just say
>Nah that won't happen to me, i'm Gilgamesh xD
>>
>>146768230
Bounded Field is literally a general term for Reality Marble so calling it both is not wrong.
Bounded Field=creating your own territory now matter how small it is(Kiritsugu and Nvrnqsr only had their RM inside there body, but it is still their domain)
RM = mental landscape where you have your own version of reality (again Kerry and Nero Chaos have that, being a part of their mentality)
>>
>>146768311
Bab-Ilu does not have any firing rate limitations. You're the one mixing shit up.
>>
>>146768309
>Enkidu can appear from many different directions
So can UBW. Unlimited

>but is simply one NP and can be one of the 19 NP per shot that Gil has from GoB.
And? Why does Shirou give a shit?

>Since by process of elimination, UBW does not have the ability to go beyond Gil's 20 NP/shot limit
Except it does, Unlimited.

> that means it cannot hit all of Enkidu's chain attacks when Gil attacks with his other 19 NPs
Except it can.

Unlimited.

But nice bait pal, i'm done replying
>>
>>146768243
No no, it doesn't matter if you can't manifest RM to the world, it's still called RM, but Kerry can only manifest it inside his body, just like NVRNQSR or whatever how that spelled RM, which his also inside his body AND his personal magic.
>>
I like Zero but Zero-fags are real cancer
>>
>>146768354
You're going to have to cite this, then, because it's noted that Bab-ilu only has 10 portals while SN's Gate has limitless.
>>
>>146768397
Lair of the Beast King is a Reality Marble, sure, but that doesn't really matter to the point at hand that Time Alter is not Kiritsugu's Reality Marble. It's not his internal world, nor do we have any description of his internal world. It is just the magecraft of the Emiya family.
>>
>>146768230
>No it's not. It's a bounded fieldKiritsugu inherited it, Reality Marbles are unique to a person, Kiritsugu doesn't have a reality marble.

Oh really Anon? So you know more about magic than a prodigy like Kayneth does who said his magic is a reality marble?
>>
>>146768311
UBW is BLADED weapons. Don't be a smartass.
The shield is a completely different thing and does not happen during the actual melee, doing anything other than blades increases prana cost, and still UBW can only match GoB's 20 per shot rate. ( because if it could go further, Gil would have died in the first strike). Enkidu is not something that's just thrown away, it's almost like it's alive.

>>146768392
IF IT IS UNLIMITED, THERE IS NO WAY GILGAMESH WOULD HAVE MATCHED IT IN THE FIRST EXCHANGE.
>>
>>146768243
A reality marble works as a description of Gaia's too, there's a reason why using Enuma Elish without any other reality marble target, destroys Gaia's RM and returns it to a state when it was a newborn planet, the modern humans can call Hell.
>>
>>146768349
>Bounded Field is literally a general term for Reality Marble so calling it both is not wrong.
No, no, no, no. Bounded Fields are a type of magecraft that lay a foundation then charge magical energy within their selected radius. They are very general, and even Rin casts them regularly (she encloses Shirou in one during their duel in UBW). Rider's Bloodfort Andromeda is a bounded field. Araya Souren has a triple-layer bounded field that he deploys around himself as both offense and defense. These are not reality marbles.
Time Alter is a normal bounded field, not an RM.
>>