Is Sailor Moon (non-reboot) GOAT mahou shoujo? Not trolling,

>>145293507
No

Cardcaptor Sakura, Madoka Magica and Utena are better

>>145293637

K

One of my former very shy/withdrawn students really liked Madoka Magica, should I watch it and then go back in time so I can connect with her better?

>>145293507
>>145293637 lists the top 4 (Sailor Moon included). I personally liked Sailor Moon the best of them, but I can see arguments for any of them.

There's also an argument that Utena isn't really a mahou shoujo, but I think it's fine to shoehorn it as one; it probably fits better than any other genre.

Most people on /a/ like CCS better (I think it's good, but not great). I personally couldn't get through Madoka a second time, but Kyouko x Sayaka are a cute.

To me, the original Sailor Moon anime had the right amount of jokes, great voice acting, and really insane boss sequences (especially in S1). S2 was your good, stereotypical Ikuhara and S3 was great with the outer senshi and sacrifice themes, but S4 kind of jumped the shark.

All in all, I probably feel it's the best. But Utena, CCS, and Madoka are definitely worth watching (I might even like Utena better, but I don't personally consider it MS).

>>145294084
Except if you consider Magic Knight Rayearth to be mahou shoujo. Then I feel it's better than any of them (one of my GOAT anime in general), but I personally wouldn't classify it as such (some do).

>>145293507
CCS, Nanoha and Madoka are probably the best examples of mahou shoujo. I also liked Heartcatch Precure, but it's a bit more traditional.

>nobody mentionning Princess Tutu
fags, all of you

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Educate yourself.

>>145296120
>mentioning memes

Ojamajo doremi is the GOAT mahou shoujo

>>145297452
>Princess Tutu
>meme
Educate me please

Utena by faaar.

>>145297546
When does it get good?
I'm like 70 episodes in and there's still not much to it.

>>145297546
Doremi, Sailor Moon, and CCS are the only magical girl shows I truly care about.
I can't rate them all. They're all equally great.

>>145297817
Also Princess Tutu.
How could I forget about it.

>>145297760
If you don't like it by 70 episodes, it's not for you.
Doremi is a character driven show, not a plot driven one if that wasn't obvious enough.

>>145297864
Oh I like it alright enough, but I just don't get any of those masterpiece vibes people like to attribute to it. I think I'd rather just watch K-On! five times. I dunno, if I'm still not feeling it after Sharp then maybe I'll give up.

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>>145293507

Sailor Moon is tied with Princess Tutu and CardCaptor Sakura for the best. But in truth, Sailor Moon is more of a Sentai/Slice of Life than a Mahou Shoujo.

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>>145293507
yes, this is the best. CSC and the others mentioned don't even hold a candle

>>145298001
I mean, you don't have to think every anime you watch is a masterpiece haha.
I personally really loved the last 2 seasons, so i'd try taking your time and taking a break from the show.

>>145300946
Obviously, I just have these expectations cause it's been sold to me so hard. I hear Naisho and Dokkaan are the best ones though, so yeah.

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Only gays disagree.

>>145293507
Madoka is the best mahou shoujo. It showed the strength and weakness of being mahou shoujo most effectively. You can't get better than that.

>>145301798
Technically wouldn't not showing the weaknesses be better?

>>145293637
>>145294084
>>145294311
>>145301798
Madoka, Nanoha, Yuuki Yuuna, etc aren't mahou shoujo. They are horrible perversions of a once great genre.

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Out of all of these I prefer Tokyo Mew Mew

>>145293507
Nice rec thread

>>145293863
Nice blog post

Piss off to leddit, they'll wipe your ass better than we will

>>145301604
>only gays and non pedophiles agree
FTFY

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>>145302738

Nice name, fag

>>145302738

>stop posting things I don't like that I can easily ignore

>>145293637
>Madoka
Nice meme

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>People still calling Utena mahou shoujo

>>145307628

Nothing we can do about it except point out they're wrong. Problem is, these people don't accept that its wrong.

>>145302466
Green is best in pic.

If it's GOAT, the that is one shitty genre

and I say that as someone who enjoyed Sailor Moon.

>>145309579

>GOAT

>>145293507
It is up there. It really fucking dragged on in some parts but S is really great.

CCS is really solid, and Madoka is my favorite.

It's a plus that all three have different art styles and you can enjoy all three of them. Just two of them take forever to finish.

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>>145293863
>>145293637
I need to rewatch Madoka. It was interesting for what it was. But I should start up Crystal's third season before doing that.

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Where the fuck did "Puella" come from in Madoka's English title? Googling it it appears to be Latin for young girl...why not just go with the direct "Magic Girl Madoka Magika"?

>>145293507
>Is Sailor Moon (non-reboot) GOAT mahou shoujo?

Yes it really is, and not only that I'd say it's the best anime series full stop. Nothing else I've seen has as many interesting and well written characters, nor as many episodes with top tier direction nor as many fantastic plot points pulls off successfully. Sailor Moon provides the full package the very few anime really even approach.

Cardcaptor Sakura is more slice of life focused, but has much weaker characters and plot in general (despite actually being by far the better MotW show).

Utena has a fantastic final arc but honestly never reaches the same heights that SM does despite it's more elaborate planning and symbolic elements.

>>145302307
Late night otaku magical girl shows are completely different from regular mahou shoujo. The people who work on Precure and the previous shows in the tradition tend to have a far better handle on writing and a better sense for emotion.

>>145299757
>Sailor Moon is more of a Sentai/Slice of Life than a Mahou Shoujo.

What makes a 'real' mahou shoujo then? Do they have to be born witch girls who deliberately hide their powers from regular society despite using them for antics?

>>145309579
What anime would you say is better then?

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>>145311319

A traditional mahou shoujo, like that of Sally Chan, would be closer to CCS. Sailor Moon was good because it did new things. So its not like its a bad thing.

>>145311107
I think the plot in CCS was way better than Sailor Moon.

Though, Sailor Moon's characters had more of an impact on me. Probably since they're older and all. And I enjoyed seeing Usagi start from a clutzy fighter, to a warrior that fights her battles with grace, and love.

Both shows have their pros and cons but they both manage to be pretty great.

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My personal favorite.

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>>145312415

This. Both shows are good for different reasons.

Sailor Moon was good for slice of life. I'd go out on a limb and say its the best slice of life I've seen in any show. Even better than shows that focus on Slice of Life exclusively. It also had great character development and I loved the ultra modern Tokyo setting. And Sailor Moon has by far the best reaction images in anime.

CCS is good for all the same things as well. Its just handled so differently that you can't compare them. The setting in CCS is more 'comfy'. And the character development is more touching and less comedic, though CCS still has comedy. But unlike Sailor Moon, I find the card catching and magic sub plot to be just as interesting as the slice of life parts. CCS also has the best onii san in anime. As well as having its own selection of good reaction images.

Both Usagi and Sakura are about equal to me as good characters.

>All these serious answers in an obvious rec thread
You are the reason modern /a/ sucks and you need to kill yourselves.

>>145312986

Fun fact. Back in 2005 when /a/ was founded, there was a rec general. And /a/ didn't fall apart because of it.

>>145313069
One rec general is still far less harmfull than several rec threads, like we currently have.

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>>145293507
> GOAT mahou shoujo
> literally this is the only example of the genre I've seen
> Not trolling

>>145313114

That was the point.

>>145310939
"Puella Magi" literally means "Girl of the Magician". Elevens can't into Latin grammar.

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>>145302307
>Impying the super sentai battles that Sailor Moon brought wasn't a perversion too.
If you are going to be a purist, be a purist, and pick some show closer to the original Toei majokkos like CCS or Doremi

>>145293507
>only example of the genre you've seen
>GOAT mahou shoujo!!!
anon. I love Sailor Moon a lot, and even i'm embarrassed reading this.

>>145310939
I think it was the real intent of the Japanese title too. gg managed to guess correctly based on some creative fonts in japanese or something that could be read in different ways, and they realized that puella was actually the correct way. I don't remember how it was.

>>145294311
How can people like Nanoha? Sure, the action scenes were nice, and the plot was coherent without asspulls, but that's all it has going for it. The character interaction is atrocious, every time the characters interact it feels so artificial, it really oozes through that it was written for otaku. It's painful to watch most of the time due to the characters. And the plot is nothing special to make up for it, it's just a generic anime plot that does nothing interesting, with a not particularly good presentation either. The nice action scenes come nowhere close to make up for the characters and uninteresting plot.

>>145314058
It is though.

>>145293507
Sailor Moon is the grandmother of its branch of mahou shoujo, the branch with weekly fights where the magic was in large part winning those fights. Contrast with shows with girls who have a much broader spellbook of powers that feeds their weekly adventures (which is probably what people are moaning and pissing about when they talk about "real" mahou shoujo).

There are older shows that did what SM did, but none with its massive success and influence. The only newer show that probably eclipsed its success was Madoka Magica, but that's really a whole other animal. SM is unironically about little girls' dreams of being a heroine princess, fighting evil and falling in love, and Madoka only cared about wanting you to expect those things so it could take you on a ride.

And Shugo Chara deserves a mention too.

>>145315681
Madoka made less waves than Precure.

>>145311107
>Yes it really is, and not only that I'd say it's the best anime series full stop. Nothing else I've seen has as many interesting and well written characters, nor as many episodes with top tier direction nor as many fantastic plot points pulls off successfully.
t. only seen 1 anime

>>145313133
>>145314058

Are yall fucking retarded? I wasn't stating my opinion--I was asking for others'. Someone on /tv/ had claimed Sailor Moon S and SuperS were GOAT so I figured I'd head here to see if that was bluster or not.

>>145312986

Not once in this thread did I ask for recommendations of other anime. Why would it asspain you so much anyway? Is part of discussion not sharing recommendations?

>>145316373
Precure is like an institution, particularly since it's really just for little kids anyhow. Girls might grow up, and think back to when it was the best thing ever to them, but I'm not sure it makes waves.

But influential for sure.

>>145297546
This. Endearing characters and situations, Umakoshi expressiveness, a fantastic sense of community, continually improves upon itself, some of the best directed episodes by veterans such as Hosoda, Yamauchi, Igarashi, Nagamine, Junichi Sato and the most hard-hitting finale ever. GOAT.

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For me Cardcaptor Sakura is superior but it may not appeal so much to an older audience

Sailor Moon was great but as far as mahou shoujo goes Cardcaptor Sakura and Princess Tutu are tied in 1st place for me. CCS makes my heart melt and despite being very episodic at first, never, for a moment it made me feel bored. It also has lovable characters and notable growth. Princess Tutu on the other hand has a beautiful storytelling with many artistic elements and symbolism that makes it endearing.

>>145293637
Madoka isn't a mahou shoujo anime, just a bad genderbent Kamen Rider Ryuki

CCS Manga is a lot better than the anime with its filler shit

Utena isn't a mahou shoujo but it's amazing

In conclusion you're dumb as fuck

>>145293507
I think it's the most essential. I know there were others before it but the original Sailor Moon defined magical girl.

Cardcaptor Sakura is probably my favorite mahou shojo. Others reference really heavily off of SM formula but CS has so much charm by focusing on the one main character.

>>145317018
>Someone on /tv/ had claimed Sailor Moon S and SuperS were GOAT

I wouldn't disagree with this.

>>145294084

In general:

>Sailor Moon is best watched for the SoL
>SuperS isn't a good season

Either pick both or none. SuperS gets way too much flack for not being S-part-2 but has easily the best Slice of Life in the series. It's arguably the most underrated season of anime.

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>>145318658
There's this great site called Google. You should try it.

>>145318658
What did she do to garner such disdain from the megucas? Madoka in particular isn't the type to be disgusted by people.

>>145302466
me on the left

>>145317888
One main character is the classic mahou shoujo formula, Sailor Moon broke the mold when it brought in the sentai team elements and a lot of the manga/shows that have come since have copied that move.

>>145317968
Most of R, S and SuperS are the best that TV Sailor Moon has to offer. Basically the parts of the show that Ikuhara directed really.

>>145317968
I fucking loved SuperS.
Honestly I enjoyed it more than S. It was so much fun to watch with Ikuhara's wackiness, and Chibiusa/Helios interactions.
I loved it more than S.

>>145317167
I just feel like Precure ended up creating more stuff for the genre than Madoka.

Not denying Madoka's quality, but overall the ideas it used are pretty standard, the difference being on how far they take the concepts.
MCs have been selfless and willing to sacrifice themselves since Sally.
There were quite a few aloof magical girls with dark hair and purple color color.
Kyoko is pretty much any new girl that joins up a team.

I'm oversimplifying, and I know there is a lot more than that, but still, I feel like creators embrace more Precure stuff than Madoka stuff, even on shows like genei and yuyuyu.

>>145319633
Madoka's biggest contribution isn't really mahou shoujo related-- it's the level of psychological introspection and complex situations that break down its characters that it really does well. That, and the shock value it produces in a 12 episode span.

>>145319905
I will agree with you on complexity and shock value (of the good kind). But the psychology of Madoka wasn't a strong point in my opinion, to this day I don't understand why Sayaka went down like she did.

Anyway, I think that while she show was based on classic archetypes, I feel that on the long run it is indeed creating a new gen of character types, even if just to avoid comparisons with that show.

For example, symphogear and wixoss (which I know are not examples of ms) started to play with the idea of the MC being the one with dark secrets. I also heard something about Yuuna from yuyuyu and a demon king? I don't follow that one so it's hard. But yeah, it is an unusual plot device that suddenly became common place, especially because the decades old selfless MC is not on the best light in the otaku late night zone.

In daytime however, things go on as usual.

>>145319633
They definitely don't compare well 1-to-1 like that, mostly because Madoka doesn't really give anything back to mahou shoujo. It's not trying to riff on colour stereotypes or how little girls become heroes, its just meant to be a rollercoaster that's fueled by the audience's expectations (and optimism, to a certain degree). But it's hugely influential in that it's a new benchmark for how those twist-mindbreak-driven stories are viewed. Because it was so successful, everyone's just a liiiiittle bit more on-guard every time a show looks cheerful and SoL'y but has even the teeniest tiniest chance of going dark. The so-called "mahou shoujo" that it infuences is just that, in quotes and with big caveats, since it's usually only the late-night seinen stuff.

But if you're talking about the actual girly shows, yes, Precure is pretty much the gold standard now. Pink means MC, they are part of teams that are colour-coded, there's a naive innocence in the way they fight for justice, and they actually kick and punch their enemies. And the similar standard for solo mahou shoujo is probably still CCS.

>>145320243
The show definitely was based on traditional archetypes. However, it played into the flaws of each individual based on such a archetypes, and it fleshes out how multiple events and circumstances warp the mindset of each individual in a way that brings about their downfall. Sayaka's worldview is completely dismantled before her and she loses sight of what she values, while burdened by a number of stressors.

I don't know that the characters themselves have actual influence in other works, the most that can be said is that it sensationalized injecting "grimdark" into the genre, not that it was the first mahou shoujo to do so.

>>145319905
>it's the level of psychological introspection and complex situations

Which it sucks at comparatively against most any decent 'normal' mahou shoujo.

>>145320498
Nobody who paid attention to the show's staff was caught off guard by Madoka.

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Is this shit a mahou shoujo? I saw it on open tv like twice and it seemed to me like a blatant plagiarism of CCS. I didn't care too much about it but this thread reminded me of its existence.

>>145301604
Gonna need a source there buddy.

>>145293507
Sakura is GOAT, Sailor Moon is most influential.

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>>145323918
It's not great but I wouldn't call it shit (except the animation in some parts). The virtual reality setting makes it somewhat unique. It really doesn't have much in common with CCS.

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>>145325558
Is being a technologic illiterate a counter-effect of being a mahou shoujo?

>>145310939
K I N O
I
N
O

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>>145293507
If you really liked Sailor Moon, Pretty Cure is pretty similar, the modern day equivalent and there's plenty of seasons to work through of girls kicking monster butt.

Try some mahou shoujo where there aren't monsters to fight though. Those sorts of MOTW shows are so limited by their format. I'm watching this right now and really enjoying it. Way cute. Way fun. Director also worked on Doremi which is another good one.

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>>145293507
Never mind mahou shojo. Sailor Moon is one of the GOAT animes, bro.

>>145294084
This guy is wrong. The so-called "boss sequences" are the worst of the show. They are what weigh Sailor Moon down against the other great animes like CCS.

>>145301604
Whoa. MY...

>>145301798
Here is another breed of Sailor Moon detractors. These are the slobbering idiots who say "the darker, the edgier, the bleaker, the 'deeper', the better, because it's more TRU 2 LYF and shows what the WURLD IZ RLY LYK". These goobers never advanced past teenage angst.

>>145311107
This guy is a big ol idiot too. He thinks because Sailor Moon's plots tend to be bigger in scope, they are better than CCS's plots. Just like those "darker is better" idiots. This time "bigger is better".

As for the characters, sure. No one is gonna pick Tomoyo and Shaoran over Minako, Ami, Makoto, and Rei. Sorry. No one's gonna pick fucking Eriol over Tuxedo Mask. No one's gonna pick god damned Yue over the Outers.

>>145312829
Holy shit. A right opinion in this thread. W-Who are you?

>>145317460
Certainly CCS does not reach the low points that Sailor Moon does; it far surpasses SM in dealing with emotional content. You need to be real though. CCS should appeal to any audience except idiots, because CCS respects your intelligence and tells a great story. What a master class in storytelling by CLAMP.

>>145317968
Indeed. I won't say it should be anyone's favorite season. It may not even be my own even though I loved it, but I will say that they perfected the Sailor Moon formula in Super S. You can recognize any goober just by their opinion on Super S. The less they like it, the more they are a goober, and the less attention you should pay to them.

>>145327423
>This guy is wrong. The so-called "boss sequences" are the worst of the show.

Dude, I cannot agree with you. You'd be correct to point out that the "boss sequences" are not consistently good, as many of them are just mediocre melodrama, but the best of them are some of the best parts of Sailor Moon and are absolutely essential to the total experience. I flatly reject the idea that you can reduce Sailor Moon to its SoL and have that be representative of the series' worth. The anime arcs and capstones for Nethrite, Zoicite, Saphir, Eudial and Mistress 9 were each fantastic and stand out in their own way. You'd not be wrong to be critical of things like the anime season 1 finale or every fucking piece of bullshit involving Nehelenia though, which I consider severely overrated.

>This guy is a big ol idiot too.
I guess I sure am an idiot then. Saying that Sailor Moon's plots are better because of their shear scope is not even something I disagree with, but it's not the simple fact of being bigger alone that leads me to feel this way, it's that SM really takes advantage of its scope by using it to thoroughly explore themes in ways that would be weaker, less impactful or even outright impossible were it narrower. This is why the advantage is serious instead of trivial. In the same way, darkness can be good if it enables things that otherwise work, even if it is not automatically better by its own virtue.

>Indeed.
The guy you're responding to here is also me, just so you know. I highly value the more down to earth, character focused parts of the series, which when lacking gives you, well, the manga. S is the best season in my eyes because it successfully combines its SoL, the plot and thematic elements together in such an elegant and powerful way, even if the character development in it is weaker than in SuperS.

>>145328431
Oh shit, I forgot to mention Iron Mouse's ending episode. That definitely deserves a mention, it's just it didn't come to mind because what makes it good it has nothing to do with the qualities of the villain or fight sequence, but it's otherwise absolutely an example of a "boss sequence" episode being the highlight of the arc.

>>145293863
...you know, if you make a contract with me, I can make that time travel bit happen.

>>145330116
Fuck off furball

>>145293507
>more loli fanservice than late night "lolicon" series Prisma Illya
Anime back then was awesome.

>>145321654
Nobody who paid attention would've been shocked by Mami, anyhow. But if you're dissecting a show's staff beforehand to deduce every possible thing that could happen that might otherwise be surprising, this show probably wasn't for you anyhow. You don't have to be a retard to like Madoka, but it wanted to take you for a gutpunchy ride, not test you on your anime-smarts and traumatize you if you failed.

I'm not sure that the show was ever meant to be a mystery that was meant to be figured out, and I'd be really surprised if the show's creators thought they were outsmarting the audience. There's just enough foreshadowing so that you might just start to suspect some shit is up on a first viewing, and to layer a bit of meaning into repeated viewings.

But if you're the kind of person to watch E03, cross your arms, roll your eyes and drawl, "Yeah that was sooo predictable", you might be better off spending your evenings jerking off to how smart you think you are than watching shows like this.

>>145317806
>CCS Manga is a lot better than the anime with its filler shit
I've never read the CCS manga but tell me, what wrong with filler?
The Sailor Moon anime is 90% filler compared to the manga, and yet people prefer it overwhelmingly. Why is it the only show that gets a pass on it's filler? What makes it different from all the others?

>>145333507
Not him, but since it can't go into plot, I think sometimes filler ends up being pure repetitive chaff. Some shows do a decent job of fleshing out characters or the world while they're stalling for the manga, but whether they succeed or not is a pretty subjective call.

>>145333507
>The Sailor Moon anime is 90% filler compared to the manga

No it's not though. The manga is bad because it's just as fillery as the anime, but there's just much less content overall. Most of the stuff that happens in the manga has no real significance, as most of the characters are completely interchangeable and have no personality so each manga act that introduces a new character is usually about as meaningful as a random anime episode that does whatever with some side character and a monster which never gets mentioned again.

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Cutie Honey is the best mahou shoujo manga/anime ever made. Fuck Sailor Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura, Lyrical Nanoha. and Meduka Meguca.

Sailor Moon fucking killed me with how repetitive it was.
After the first season i thought things were going to change but it was literally just more of the same and I just had to quit.

For the record, I've watched
Cardcaptor Sakura
Madoka
YuYuYu
and Futari Wa Precure
I'm in the middle of the second series of Futari wa now.'
Maybe a couple others that I'm forgetting. If you want to count stuff like Utena, Cutey Honey, and Kill la Kill then I've seen those too.

I was thinking I'd try watching Sailor Moon again lately though. It was a long time ago that I watched it after all, and I like the soundtrack.

>>145334086
Cheap Akko-chan ripoff

CCS and SM for top, defining, and classics.
Tutu, Madoka for refreshing takes on the genre. Tutu with a more literary classic approach, quite musical and shoujo-y, and romantic. Madoka actually quite similar to Tutu although with a different result and so it feels different although similar literary devices are there. Both worth watching after watching common mahou shoujos. Watching them before would need you to revisit them after watching more MS so that the reinterpretation is appreciated (sort of like watching Mazinger, then Gundam, then Eva, and whatever).
Precure (with Doremi) for taking the SM sentai friends formula and making a franchise out of it.
Nanoha for being less shoujo and more aimed at otakus, with fights and henshin scenes that are quite good- Suffers and manages to look dated sometimes because it came right in the era of that weird transition we had between analog and digital, film and digital, and so when you watch it now it always has this 2000s color palette, contrast, and that weird blur anime from that time has.

You can try older ones but the formula was refined and topped with CCS and SM imo, both animation and writing wise.

>>145333378
>Nobody who paid attention would've been shocked by Mami
I don't know man, when we were watching it live here it certainly was a wild ride, and yeah we knew something was coming because of all the death flags but it still was quite there.

>>145334729
>when we were watching it live here it certainly was a wild ride
Oh yeah, no, I think it should be (and is) shocking to most everyone, but that if you were going to try to figure it all out based on who was involved in the project, you would've seen a death coming but not necessarily the whole show.

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Help I'm in love with a duck.

>>145335167
Rape her, it's how their species work.

>>145335195
But I don't have a corkscrew penis.

>>145334836
We knew it was coming and we were actively figuring the entire thing extensively (holy hell the threads were massive in trying to figure the plot and shit happening), but the delivery was still quite hard when live watching, and we knew the staff, we had tons of deathflags, the plot was heading there, all that.
It's not that no one figured it, but that in the end, the delivery was still hard hitting.

I don't know how to put it, but it's like seeing a link to "guy gets killed" and then watching the video of it. Even if you know it, 100% aware of it, the delivery is there and is not something you trivialize easily.

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>>145335167
>>145335195
>>145335225
please do not hurt the duck.

>>145311319
Sailor Moon didn't use magic to solve mundane problems.
She barely used magic at all unless it was to defeat an enemy. Other than that she was a normal girl 80% of episodes before she transformed to finish off the monster of the day.

Doremi and CCS are better representatives of traditional magical girls.

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>>145335499
>traditional magical girls.

What makes something more traditionally mahou shoujo? The name makes me think it should be just anything with a girl who is magical as the MC, but I think there should probably be more to it than that. It feels strange to discuss pic related or Madoka alongside series like Doremi or Tutu.

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>>145336408
The difference is pretty clear to anyone who has watched enough mahou shoujo, really.

>>145336898
You can't just say it's obvious and pretend like that makes you smarter than me. What difference? I've watched plenty of maho shoujo, recent and old, stuff aimed at older demographics and younger too. I'm trying to have a conversation about the subject, not see who can pee farther. I can totally pee farther though, so lets not even go there.

>>145337029
Mate, all the earliest mahou shoujo follow basically the same pattern. Just watch anything older than Sailor Moon.

>>145336898
>>145337180
Good god. I'm all for self-learning and shit, but holy shit you're a pompous ass.

>>145304485
How fucking new are you? The fact that you think it's just 'ignore it bro xD' shows it.

>>145337180
Again? Well, okay. I'll leave you to your superiority then.

>>145337270
Feel free to chime in with your own thoughts on the subject. I'm genuinely curious about others thoughts. It should be targeted at shoujo obviously, which was the answer I was trying to bait from anon with my older-targeted series that I name dropped.

>>145311370
>It's traditional because it's like this othe rthing which is also apparently traditional

Anon, please. What are you talking about?

>>145337393
He's probably talking about Mahotsukai Sally/Sally the Witch, which is one of the shows, that claims to be the very first magical girl anime. As the first, it would be the definition of "traditional."

>>145337270
>>145337346
I don't take a lot of pride in knowing the basic. But I won't spoonfeed either.

If anon had watched the older shows, even if just a single episode of some key ones, he would know how traditional MS worked and how Sailor Moon changed it.

Instead, he prefers to be a little shit, saying "huh, why is sally (the very first magical girl) traditional?" He wants answers without putting any effort into it.

>>145337651
I'm not even sure that's what anon was saying, but alright. Then what parts of Sally the Witch are parts that you need to have in another show to call it traditional mahou shoujo? Does the MC need to be a witch named Sally?

>>145337721
Oh please. This has nothing to do with spoonfeeding. I'm not asking for sauce or for an answer to a question that is easily googled. I'm asking you to share your vast wisdom with me since I have not shared in your expereince. I can't google your expereince and the knowledge and opinions hit has blessed you with, can I? Feel free to tie that horse up and join the rest of us in conversation anytime. I won;t bother asking you to though since you clearly don't want to.

>>145337792

It's very simple.

Traditional is slice of life with magic involved.
Non-traditional is genderbent Super Hero Time.
Pure garbage is seinen magical girl shows.

>>145338105
How do you feel about ChaCha? The anime adds the whole Magical Princess thing in which I think would put it in the kamen rider category, but I feel like it belongs in the top-tier despite this shortcoming.

>>145336408
I'm the anon you responded to. Not the one below you haha.
But anyways, traditional in my opinion is anything that doesn't incorporate super sentai elements into it.
It's hard to describe, but if you've ever seen shows like Doremi or Princess Tutu, and compare it to Sailor Moon, or something like Precure, or Madoka you'll understand what I mean.

Traditional in my definition means what came first.

>>145338588

Missing link of magical girl shows, but ultimately has more in common with the older stuff since the source material did precede Sailor Moon slightly

The most traditional (and generally older) mahou shoujo generally featured a single protagonist who was magical by nature or gifted at the start of the story. Magic becoms a tool to change up mundane and commonplace situations, but isn't just about solving problems; Think the way Doraemon works, where the tool might've been part of the clean-up of a disaster or the cause of it. But that was its core: special girl does special things that you might wish you could do in everyday situations. And she probably also has a rival.

As time went on, other elements that weren't part of the original soup got added in here and there, and each series chose which ones it wanted to play with: Save-the-world destinies, secret identities/masquerade, evil monsters, actual fighting, actual fighting with actual close combat, being part of a team of magical girls (who share your secret), otherworldly settings. The more get piled on, the more "non-traditional" I think people see it as. So a show like Sailor Moon can take some credit for doing most of those all at once and being a resounding international success, enough that it becomes a new standard. That may not make it the new 'traditional', but there's definitely this sense of a shift, and the Japanese sense of mahou shoujo has definitely changed to be more fighty costumed heroines than Bewitched.

Seinen mahou shoujo generally play with those elements, but also some that are pretty specific to theirs, like yuri, mindbreak suffering (as opposed to just tragedy), male-gaze fanservice (like gawky naked henshin), deep conspiracy plots, and full-out mecha/scifi style fighting. By the time you add all that, it starts to drift a long way from home.

>>145337290

Old enough to have seen every variation of this trite response. Surprised you managed to not invoke reddit or summer

Sailor moon was good because it was cheesy, blatantly comical and the mc wasn't as Mary sue as other similar titles mc's, sailor mercury took that title, the loser/slacker/unwilling hero character made it enjoyable and reliable and the dub was based along it a classic in the US.

It achieved what it set out to achieve and was an enjoyable light series

It's biggest contribution was that she (Serena) was a believable girl, simple as it may seem, and the magic was all secondary

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>>145342557
>Serena

>>145342557
Time to go back to >>>/tv/ or wherever you came from

>>145317806
>CCS Manga is a lot better than the anime with its filler shit
LOL! It is the oposite.

The anime is so much better than the manga.

>>145342840
Usagi Tsukino is such an ugly name
The dub was great and you know it baka

>>145343183
Moon rabbit is a cute name though?

>>145342840
>Natalie thinks this is totally bonkers

>>145341773
I wonder why they just don't make a seinen version of the classic more "sol" mahou shoujo. I bet people would love cute girls doing cute spells. I mean, that was what Majokko Megu was, and that one was somewhat popular.

I also like the way you separated tragedy from suffering to explain the difference between seinen mahou shoujo and actual mahou shoujo. That is my overall impression too.
Even Sally had what you can consider "tragic" or dramatic episodes. Magic can't heal was a common plot point and there were episodes where that meant she couldn't get an ideal resolution, she can give sickly girl toys but she can't stop the sickness from worsening, etc...

>>145343183

It was my understanding that people thought the original dub was bad, and the new Blu Ray one was decent. I always associated dubbed with edited which was bullshit (didn't they turn Zoicite into a girl?)

>>145343286
>Natalie
Still a work of art compared to Glitter Force.

>>145343286
Not spoken in moonspeak tbqh

>>145343414
I watched whatever version is on k a
Which was that

>>145343291
Why would they? People already love them as they are. Those shows aren't just for little girls and can be enjoyed by all ages.

>>145343414
Both Dragonball and Sailor Moon have huge fanbases consisting of what is essentially people with stockholm syndrome-tier appreciation for the piss poor dubs they watched as kids and associate the show as a whole with.

>>145343286
Next you'll want to call Ahiru just Duck for the whole series. What kind of moron would do that?

>>145343652
That's what the subs did, though.

>>145343639
Bruce Faulconer.

>>145341773
This was really enlightening, thank you. I have been curious about old types of mahou shoujo, and it was also interesting to see the newer stuff described with words.

>>145343758
Who?

>>145343652
This is completely different. Duck was actually an important plot point and important for giving the right feel. Usagi is just a name with no deeper meaning. Even if you draw a moon connection, it doesn't really influence anything, and works fine as a name.

>>145338105

>Pure garbage is seinen magical girl shows.

Care to elaborate? You saying it's garbage holds just as much merit as me saying that traditional mahou shoujo is garbage.

Seinen mahou shoujo has done quite a bit for the genre. Meguca's influence, "unoriginal" as it may have been, is undeniable, and has led to many people that who wouldn't be even remotely interested in the genre to try it out. Same goes for Nanoha and the others.

I've seen MG shows from different times, and I dare say that you might be evoking your nostalgia for the older ones. A lot of the "traditional" ones have an absurd amount of filler episodes and a monster of the week formula, which is not inherently bad if you're marketing to children. But older audiences might find themselves bored if every week, you just see the same finishing move being performed week after week.

Seinen mahou shoujo provides an alternative to the traditional. Both are great.

Sailor Moon is crazy fucking slow. I'm about 26 episodes in if I recall and only 3 of the sailor scouts are even present.

Should I keep watching? I love the art style and the girls are cute but nothing really happens in it, does it stop being monster of the weak or at least develope characters?

CCS is better by a long shot so far.

>>145344175
>sailor scouts

>>145344034
Someone else here. I feel like they're almost completely different because of their parts being used differently, even though they're the same parts. I don't think they're garbage at all, but I think they're very different so it's understandable why someone who holds one in high regard might not appreciate the other as much. Might look sort of like a cheap knockoff in comparison, even though that's not what it's trying to be at all.

>>145344221
It's burned into me from childhood.

>>145344477
>only watched 26 episodes
>hurr I know these dub names too well from childhood

>>145343621
Seinen mahou shoujo usually sells pretty bad. As far as pure magic goes, since 2010 only Madoka and Yuki Yuna weren't total flops, and the later did just OK.

I really think witch gochiusa would sell

>>145344534
I watched sailor moon at random as a kid and only recently actually sat down to watch the show in Japanese from the first episode on.

Calm down spazz.

>>145344235
Seinen magical girl shows are much closer to modern superhero stories. It's not so much about celebrating femininity and the bonds between friends like Precure, and more about the psychological struggles of having power. In this regard, seinen MG is a lot more flexible when it comes to the subject material it can tackle.

>>145344034
I think one of my main problems with Seinen Mahou shoujo is how idealized the protagonists feel. Of course this is a problem in a lot of shoujo Mahou shoujo too, but still, I have yet to find a seinen one where the girls feel "organic".

Also, usually when I like a seinen one, it is more for the world setting than for the characters or use of magic. Like, I think the Yuusha franchise is fun because of its Shinto Myth and intrigue, but sincerely, you take all the "mahou shoujo" theme away from it and change it for generic super power and you still have the exact same series. You take away the "mahou shoujo" aspect from stuff like Sally or Doremi and you completely lose the show.

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>>145344603
What do you mean by making a seinen version? This right here appeals to me a lot, and contrary to what I might tell you in other threads, I am not actually a little girl, but an older gentleman. I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but all I meant was that you don't have to make them appeal to older demos since they already do. It's cute girls helping people with magic and doing cute SoL things inbetween while also becoming more mature. Basically what you want already, right?

>>145344034
The judgemental part of it is that there's always that lingering feeling that seinen's treatment of mahou shoujo is largely fetishizing.

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>>145343291

Not a good idea. CGDCT is popular because it's cheerful and carefree escapism to the point of sterility so doesn't offend the sensibilities of otaku. The little touches of realism and tragedy are what make MS a good genre (You can even ditch the magical part, WMT and shows like Nadja are great as well).

Also the typical latenight demographic is a good deal younger than say, men who watch Precure too.

>>145344972
>you still have the exact same series
Maybe? The notions of heroism in YuYuYu are really really boyish, though, that's for sure. Their values aren't integrally tied to the kinds of things you'd see in Precure, for instance. And it's just using all that stuff to feed a huge conspiratorial plot with little suffering factories built in every chapter anyhow.

>>145345032
Well, yes. I'm well aware of that. That is why I'm saying it, I can't understand why we haven't one of on the same package as other SoLs.

There hasn't been many of those recently, though, it's worrisome.

It's more about advertising it to another crowd. I feel like moe-eaters would buy those like they buy other slice of life.

>>145345191
And that is actually a good point. I hadn't seen it in this light before. I guess it just wouldn't work or would be just bland.

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>>145345191
Word.

>>145345036
>largely fetishizing.

The two more popular ones I've seen discussed right now didn't give me that feel at all. Madoka and YuYuYu I mean. Nanoha feels a little bit like that at times. I think a lot of them try really hard to be serious though so they avoid that. Unless you mean parodies like Moetan and the like. I don't watch a lot of sienen though so maybe there's a lot more ecchi stuff out there.

>>145345593

They very much are. You just need to understand that a fetish doesn't need to be blatantly sexual.

That's the entire essence of why moe is a thing.

>>145345255
Hmm, I felt like the notion of "Hero" in YuYuYu felt as much of an umbrella term for all that is good as "Princess" in GoPri. (Not a mankai joke, I swear.)
That is exclusive to the anime since the Light Novels are far more gritty.

But the real difference for me, the thing that is substantial, is how the characters are built. Again, seinen girls are idealized, while shoujo girls go trough ordeals and are meant to be relatable.

You look at Yuuna wanting to become a hero and it is about "doing good", you look at HaruHaru and it goes far beyond just "doing good", it involves character growth, ideals, and overall something that is not there just for archetype sake, but also to teach the audience something.

And that is why I find shoujo MS more enjoyable than seinen MS.

>>145345593
Nah, YuYuYu gets pretty bad with the fanservice stuff at times, the Visual Novel goes as far as being outright gross at times.

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I'm one of the biggest mahou shoujo fans on /a/. Sailor Moon certainly isn't bad to call greatest of all time. Both the original and reboot. I think Pretear, which had many of the same production team as Sailor Moon is a much better example of the genre because it's a much tighter package. Giving fans what they want without filler.

I also enjoyed Wedding Peach more than Sailor Moon.

>>145344972

>I think one of my main problems with Seinen Mahou shoujo is how idealized the protagonists feel.

While that may be true, that really isn't an inherent problem with seinen mahou shoujo. It's more a problem in the writing. Since they're shorter, the shorter shows may fall into pitfalls that longer series avoid. Seinen mahou shoujo should try a 24-episode run for a change.

>>145345798
I'll buy that. Seinen girls don't need to be relatable, just understandable (or worshipable, I suppose).

The princess thing is more complicated. It may be broader than the literal royalty thing, and GoPri did a neat little job of expanding on the values that make their so-called princesses good people. It's highly gendered stuff, though, and that changes its nature. Yeah, "princess" may be a genderswap of "hero" here, but it didn't start off that way at all, and GoPri drew together a lot of different (and admittedly preexisting) ideas to create their notion of a princess in a way that YuYuYu never had to.

>>145345984
I do not think its a short time problem. They usually release a lot of extra stuff, and no matter how much they add, they never shake off that feeling. At least in my opinion.

Also, despite not being MS, Symphogear could have as far as 65 episodes if the next two seasons move on like always, and that won't change it too, I guess.

>>145346201
I thought GoPri's princess thing was pretty stupid honestly. Like you said it was just another word for hero to them. The series was really cool but the theme was so dumb. Fushigiboshi does princesses right.

>>145346271
Well, 65 is more than precure seasons and a lot of magical girls out there. But I doubt anyone watch that for interesting plots.

>>145346201
>>145346335
I thought it was cute. And despite the odd choice of words, it did lead to the great moment where she realizes her dream is hers and not obligatorily linked to prince Kanata.

>>145346335
You've clearly never wanted to wear a tiara.

>>145345798
I haven't indulged in Yuki Yuna outside the anime, but I think one of the biggest points was not simply heroism in the form of being a magical girl, but rather ordinary, everyday heroism, as demonstrated by the Hero Club. The fact that there's so much focus given to the SoL elements not involving fighting Vertices hammers this point in.

Now, in terms of characterization, I can agree that Yuna's character fell a little flat in that the level of idealization was too high.

>>145345984
On the other hand, I feel like PMMM did a good job of avoiding this with Madoka. The majority of the series is a horror show for her as she's powerless to stop her friends from suffering and dying. And ultimately, when she "wins" in the end, it's not due solely due to her pure heart; it's because she was inadvertently powered up thanks to an obsessive, pragmatic antihero failing to save her a hundred times, and on top of that, she faced reality and used her understanding of it to change it in a practical manner. And even when she accomplished that, it's not like she created a perfect ending-- being a magical girl was still a raw deal, and she sowed the seeds of her own downfall-- Rebellion ensues. And even her ideal nature of self sacrifices is played to a fault-- it's rooted in a sense of self-worthlessness and as a result, her altruism is shown as unaware, insensitive, and at its most, nearly suicidal. Sure, Madoka could be an ideal magical girl in another setting, but in her own world, she's not.

>>145346648
I mean if you want to do a princess story, you should at least have some princesses in it. And they should develop along those lines, in a princess-like way. They should become refined and regal, with a strong sense of duty to their country and the local politics. I guess you can twist princess precure around a lot to make it fit that, but it feels so unrefined, not princess-like at all. At least to me.

>>145346997
No, you're absolutely right, that's kind of what we were getting at, that these aren't the literal royalty princesses, but the idea of being more vaguely princess-like. Refined, educated, forbearing, dignified. And pretty. More like "princess of the academy" than "princess of the kingdom". So no statecraft.

There was an opportunity to really lay this bare as well as confront the whole birthright thing (which is totally the elephant in the room when it comes to royalty) in GoPri with Twilight but it only came up as a short flash. I think you might've had her defending your side of the argument there, then likely losing out to Haruka being all "but I'm going to become a princess because I really really really want to." So maybe it was better this way after all than have to see that happen on-screen.

>>145346969

>Madoka could be an ideal magical girl in another setting, but in her own world, she's not.

Exactly. These kinds of themes are very hard, if not impossible, to go into in a kid-friendly series. In general, seinen mahou shoujo stories take place in oppressive settings, putting the spotlight on the characters' flaws rather than their virtues.

While daytime mahou shoujo can certainly explore the darker side of their characters, they still have to keep the main characters role models for children, and thus, their flaws are secondary to their virtues. I think this is a positive thing for both seinen and traditional mahou shoujo.

>>145347628
>seinen mahou shoujo stories take place in oppressive settings, putting the spotlight on the characters' flaws rather than their virtues.
I wonder if maybe that's part of how Heartcatch got its crossover appeal, that in addition to being a tad darker, it also had an MC whose flaws were front and centre.

>>145346969
>Madoka could be an ideal magical girl in another setting, but in her own world, she's not.
That's prolly part of the tragedy, eh? And here PMMM actually lives up to its often-misused deconstructionist label: It's that pessimistic world view with the idea that if the story goes on past "happily ever after", it will fall apart. If the story just ended with the series, it'd be a bit harder to criticize her sacrifice.

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>>145347628
>they still have to keep the main characters role models for children
I shudder to think what a child that watched Megu-chan would do. Considering how overly flawed Megu was. (But that was what made her great)

Actually, they say the whole cool girl thing was largely influenced by Meg airing, so I guess its possible to see where it did all go wrong.

On the other side, a Sally watcher became the first female governor of Tokyo.

>>145347628
>In general, seinen mahou shoujo stories take place in oppressive settings, putting the spotlight on the characters' flaws rather than their virtues.

Eh, I don't know. A lot of seinen shows put a lot of light in the character's virtues despite the oppressiveness of their world. Outside of Madoka, was there any other seinen that focused so much on flaws?

>>145334729
>I don't know man, when we were watching it live here it certainly was a wild ride, and yeah we knew something was coming because of all the death flags but it still was quite there.

We were too distracted deciphering faust off the walls to see it coming.

>>145348214
And beyond that, it's that Madoka's ideal virtues lead to further problems, either directly or indirectly. Tarnishing Madoka's wish in the manner that Rebellion did was one of the best things that happened to the series, because it pulls away from idealization with unideal consequences, and more ruthless mitigation of those consequences.

And then there's the deliberate contrast of that within Homura's barrier-- a vision of a lighter mahou shoujo show that plays up all of the ideal aspects-- to the point that all the girls unanimously agree that they're at their happiest as the "Puella Magi Holy Quintet".

>>145348296

>A lot of seinen shows put a lot of light in the character's virtues despite the oppressiveness of their world.

But that's after bringing up the things that make them imperfect and how they come to terms with it. Remember, Madoka, Yuyuyu, Nanoha, etc. all had naive little girls face against elements (Madoka had the whole contract thing, Yuyuyu had mankai, and Nanoha had the Knights from the book of darkness) that brought out the worst in the main characters. Moments of weakness and helplessness, or outright despair.

And all that serves to reinforce the conclusion that despite those hardships and sacrifices, things can get better.

>>145349585
>despite those hardships and sacrifices, things can get better.
This is the big conceit of YuYuYu that I'm just not sold on. It's not that I'm just too grimdark to believe it to be true, but I don't feel like the story sells it in any relatable way because it goes so far out of its way to blacken everything to some comical extreme first, as if contrast on its own makes things truer. And that kinda gets back to what folks were saying earlier about its characters being weirdly idealized.

>>145350107
I'm an anime-only-fag when it comes to Yuki Yuna, but the ending comes across as a complete asspull. It felt more shounen than anything else. On the other hand, when I've heard explanations for it, it sort of seems that the major conflict in the first place was just a result of absolute incompetence/idiocy.

>>145350384
It was truly bad, it really sucks for anime original stuff.
>Sells badly, ends poorly.
>Sells well, has to change the ending so sequels are possible.
Only like, 10% manages to do it right.

It's basically the only thing I find interesting in Nanoha: The fact they didn't end in the final battle, instead had a whole battle-less episode to properly close each of the first two seasons.

>>145344175
It's slow because the anime was being made around the same time the manga was being published once a month in magazines.

Just keep watching, don't try to binge and enjoy yourself. It's a slow show but the characters do develop. Personally I didn't like the first season too much but I loved all the seasons after it.

>>145343286
You mean rabbit on the moon.

And yes, Usagi Tsukino is a cuter name than valley girl Serena with no last name

>>145350660
I'm not sure it was rewritten because of sales, but it feels awfully wishy-washy, like it wanted to have its cake and eat it too. Wanting to be dark but uplifting, deep and fun, lean but sakuga. It's like they weren't willing to commit to a single idea that could be pitched in one concise sentence. Blah.

>>145350855
The scriptwriter has already confirmed that to be the case. The director also talks about the ending with terms like "originally this phrase about letting the new generation take over actually meant they were graduating from it" etc...

>>145351009
I'd be interested in hearing/reading these interviews. They're pretty hilarious things to admit regardless, but I'm surprised it hasn't thrown the entire fanbase into a tailspin, considering how important the notion of it being a multimedia project seems to be.

What do you guys like so much about the mahou shoujo genre?
I'm going to admit i've only seen 4 anime out of the genre, but still. I love to hear different opinions.

>>145351598
Well, there are various reasons.
First and foremost, I like magic and plots involving the occult. Doctor Strange is my favorite Marvel character and I liked the Bewitched series (which is what inspired magical girls in the first place.)

I also think female leads showcase far more emotion than male leads (usually).

Frills and candy colors don't particularly do anything to me, but I like the idea of themed teams like Precures, Sailor Moon and others.

Also love silly catchphrases like Maharu Tamara Furanpa

>>145351598
On a purely superficial level, I'm really fond of the elaborate costumes and transformation sequences that have become staples of the genre in later years.

>>145351598
I like the way those shows give their girls power without comparing them to boys or condescending to them. I like that their relationships build from misunderstanding to mutual understanding, with empathy (and the whole reaching others' feelings) as a clear end goal. I like how often these stories end without fighting, or without anyone having to be defeated or losing.

>>145351009
None of them said that, the only thing they said about the ending is that one of them wanted to go for a bad end from the beginning but was overruled by the other two. Everything they've said points to the ending being decided from the get go.

>>145352988
Come to think of it, didn't they also say that there was supposed to be 13 episodes but they couldn't get enough money together and had the scrap one in the end? I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere last year.

>>145352988
Kishi said they changed plans in the convention last year. I don't follow Yuki Yuna closely, but that was an event I followed.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/anime/comments/2tgqyq/spoilers_kishi_seiji_takahiro_and_uezu_makoto_on/ for translation

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So after having watched all of Precure I tried getting into other mahou shoujo. I watched some SM years ago, but I honestly can't get into it now. And I thought Max Heart was a bore to get through. I really did not like CCS either, as much as I wanted to like it. The show felt too obsessed with trying to pair everyone up, it felt like I was reading some girl's fanfic. Doremi I've yet to try, but am still willing to give it a shot. I think me getting into Precure might have been a fluke and I actually don't like mahou shoujo. It probably doesn't help that I don't really like romance and Precure is very light to non-existent on that.

>>145343291
Would you consider Flying Witch to be something along those lines?

>>145354462
There's rarely any romance in Doremi, and if there was, I know it didn't last for more than 1 episode and it wasn't the main focus of the series.
So you may actually end up liking that one if your gripes happen to be romance.

>>145302307
What perversion Madoka has?
It's probably the safest mahou shoujo out there.
Most doujin and fanart are yuri based.
While Sailor Moon is just rape stuff.

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>>145354757
We're not talking about fan made doujins here, but here's a (you) anyways for effort.

>>145350779

If you look at it like "tsuki no usagi", that would mean "moon's rabbit" or "rabbit of the moon".

>>145355018
yumeno sally

>>145354757

perversion meaning sick, twisted, deviant...deviating from the genre in this case, not sexually perverted

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>>145354757
>mahou shoujo doujin
>it's either rape, tentacles, monsters, and/or futanari/dickgrowth based on a magical elixir or spell

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>>145355018
Which is the Chinese version of the Man in the Moon.

Usagi isn't the only one with a family name edning in -no that can be taken apart like that -- Hino Rei = Fire Spirit

>>145355018
There's some dickery going on with these kinds of names, for people who care.

野 (no) is very often used as a character in names, though it's usually for the meaning of field or plain. But since "X-no" can also mean "of X", they can do some silly wordplay like >>145355326 is talking about.

>>145354757
This really annoys me, but it's true. It also proves that most of the actual mahou shoujo fans are just huge closet perverts and the fans of the seinen mahou shoujo are actually the more tame ones. Pretty ironic.

>>145355722
It's not exactly that. The amount of messed up shit is the same with the seinen ones is about the same, but for some reason people don't feel as driven to write normal love doujins for daytime ones.

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How will you people celebrate the 50th anniversary of this lovely girl's show (and therefore the whole genre)

I was really thinking about making an /a/ sings the OP or first ED (which is fun as fuck) of 66 sally.