Alright what the fuck just happened? I am by no means a hater

>>145254714
>hater of anime which are deeper
>EVA, Lain

Jesus christ, this post. Please just go back to your board. This is embarrasing.

>The biggest problem here is - how the fuck did the Tokyo attack at the end happen? It was a physical attack obviously as buildings were destroyed. This series can't make its fucking mind whether or not Shonen Bat and the other shit is mind-related or material, real.

Why do you think it couldn't be both?

File: 61459[1].jpg (29KB, 225x350px) Image search: [Google]

29KB, 225x350px

You'll get shit upon but I agree 100% OP.

The end ruined what was otherwise a great series for me. I loved every minute of it and then the final moments were just like Kon realized he didn't have an ending and had to Bayformer it up to give a good finish. It was stupid and felt like it meant nothing.

I am too optimistic to expect some actual analysis and explanation instead of people accusing me of baiting because I am not mindlessly worshiping one of the cult anime, but I'd love if the thread wouldn't get filled with replies like >>145254816

>>145254829
Because it's contradicting. Either everything that happened related to Shonen Bat is in the victim's minds, or he is very real. The first theory is great, but it falls apart majorly at the very ending when Tokyo is literally fucked up, but also before that because of scenes where we obviously see things destroyed (for example the house of that officer). The second theory falls apart even more than the previous one, because other than the few scenes where we're seeing collateral damage, nothing indicates that the person is real.
Also there's a ton of bullshit present, for example, when the fat kid was attacked - the other kid was near him. What the fuck happened? He couldn't have seen the fat kid hit himself with an object (if that's what he did, an often used theory which at times makes sense, at times doesn't - that the victims hit themselves), because if that happened, he would have reported that the fat guy is nuts, and he couldn't have done it himself either, because he knows he would get accused because he knows everyone knows he hates the fat guy.
This is just a bunch of incoherent bullshit which people latch on to seem deep, this coming from a guy who loved Perfect Blue, that actually makes fucking sense.

>>145254714
>I dare anyone to give an explanation for this.
It's basically about the problems you refuse to face. They pile up and become bigger and bigger as you ignore them and willingly push into the background. The dude with the bat represents the excuses and escapes the people come up with to make them feel better. But in the end you have the choice to solve your shit or get smacked on the head and maybe die. Or, in the extreme case, destroy Tokio. That's the explanation i came up with. Free for interpretation but pretty basic shit, if you didn't get smacked on the head with a baseball bat when you were little, right, OP?

>>145255050
I am not a retard, that's the outline which I got myself, but it doesn't account for various bullshit which is present in the anime.
Even though there was some incoherent stuff before the ending, I can agree with >>145254951 ,
it's probably the ending that ruined it.

>>145255039
How is that contradicting? I didn't read your post beyond the first line, by the way.

It was something in everyone's mind. That made it real.

>>145255130
>repeats the question
>"I didn't read your post beyond the first line, by the way."
Why are you behaving like this?

I've only ever seen Paranoia Agent but I hear Satoshi Kon is literally incapable of ending something well.

>>145255199
>but I hear Satoshi Kon is literally incapable of ending something well
I've watched Perfect Blue and Tokyo Godfathers and both are amazing works, so I watched Paranoia Agent and was pretty excited, expecting a masterpiece, but all I got was incoherent bullshit.

>>145255173
You're choosing to reject the answers that would explain the show.

File: [RUELL-Subs] Mousou Dairinin EP10 (BD 1280x720 x264 AAC ENSub(A4E)).mkv_snapshot_22.11_[2016.02.08_20.52.08].jpg (64KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

64KB, 1280x720px

>things are real or they aren't, no in-between. Why? Because I decided the rules of your story. Fuck metaphores and themes blending in with the narrative or surrealism.
How fucking basic of you OP.

Also it's all about the Bomb and Hello Kitty.
http://www.irosf.com/q/zine/article/10634
https://sittingonanatomicbomb.com/2010/08/27/the-true-brilliance-of-paranoia-agent-and-why-its-all-about-the-bomb/
https://www.overthinkingit.com/2009/03/24/overthinking-anime-kawaii-culture-superflat-and-the-bomb-in-paranoia-agent/

>>145255251
You're probably baiting, but since I don't have anything smarter to do - you're literally proposing that I mindlessly just say to myself "this all makes sense" and love this anime.
But here's additional effort, I'll give you one more:
>It was something in everyone's mind. That made it real.
Three people can think that a serial killer exists and that he will murder their neighbor in the evening. This doesn't mean the neighbor will be killed, you fucking mongoloid.

>>145255119
I'd say the ending showed that the problems, if not solved, do not only affect your mind, or the mental state of people, but can become a physical concern, a physical thing. Satoshi Kon exaggerated this with the destruction of Tokio. If you escape your delusional world, you'll see, that the real life, were you're problems exist, is pretty fucked up. That's the explanation i'd come up with in a hurry. Haven't watched the show in a long time. Maybe the ending is a little bit over the top, but i don't think it destroyed the show. The opening still gives me chills to this day, though.

>>145255304
>things are real or they aren't, no in-between
Yes, what's the problem here?

>>145255340
Good theory, but it's not acceptable, for me at least. I just want to make sense of this. EVA is easy as hell to get once you dig a bit deeper, but Paranoia Agent just has shit thrown all around.

>>145255328
But in this show, and when it's an entire fucking city, it fucking does.

Why is it always the worst fucking posters who accuse people of "shitposting" and "baiting"?

>>145255401
You really are a fucking retard if you seriously think like this, and I feel sorry for you.

>>145255130

Not OP but that's such a load of shit I hate when psychological stories like this pull that.

HURR SHE HABEEBED IN IT AND SO IT BECAME REAL. And the reality is some tasteless rampaging monster.

It's just a complete cocktease to have this really interesting mental journey with all of these characters. Everything was so nuanced and deliberate. And then to end it all with a big monster rampage? How fucking lazy. It's a copout that in no way deals with the messages or situations present throughout the entire series and serves only to be a big climactic adrenaline moment.

>>145255039
If Shonen Bat comes from the victims' minds, it means they're delusionals. If they're delusionals, it means what they "see" isn't necessarily reality. At the end of the series, there's a scene mirroring the opening one where everything seems back to normal.

It could also be explained as Tsukiko having mind-warping abilities, with her being in the center of everything.

In any case, the point of Paranoia Agent wasn't to be making 100% sense but to explore in multiple ways the modern Japanese society and its flaws.

>>145255447
Well said.

>>145255451
That would be all fine and dandy if at the end, we don't hear the TV announcer reporting that Tokyo rebuilding is finally finished and that the town recovered after the catastrophe which happened 2 years ago.
I do not hate surrealistic works, but I just can't enjoy this one, because it feels like Kon wanted this story to make sense, then in the end he decided to fuck it all up.

>>145255435
Because I can suspend my disbelief? Seriously, this level of logic is on par with complaining that Eva is wacky and nonsensical because giant robots don't actually exist.

You're dismissing everyone's answers with things like "it's just a theory," or "that's stupid," but it's the best your going to fucking get.

>>145255304

It's not that it has to be black and white. It's just that it feels unearned. At least to me anyway. I hate when something pretty convincingly establishes rules of its universe and then decides to change it suddenly.

The whole show was more of a grounded mental/emotional journey. And then at the very end there's a supernatural monster. It completely sucks the wind out everything before it.

>>145255383
>Yes, what's the problem here?
The problem is that you're wrong. Things can be fake and real at the same time/fake at first but then made real because enough people believed in them/neither fake nor real but just a metaphor for a concept the story is commenting on.
That's the power of stories, you can make up stories that only work with a certain level of surrealism/made-up logic to them.

Honestly the show would be improved 100 fold if the destruction of Tokyo was also all in her mind in the end.

>>145255447
>>145255528
That means you didn't like it, not that it didn't make sense.

>>145255534
Except everything in the world of EVA makes sense. Sure, there's no giant robots in our reality, but how they were created is all explained in the anime. Same with how all the various events came to be. The world is built well, and everything makes sense, even if it is unrealistic by our world's standards.

>>145255567
>Things can be fake and real
True, if by "things" you think emotions and other mind-related things.
>at the same time
And you lost me. A thing is either real, or fake. The table in front of me is either real or fake. It's not both at the same time.
>fake at first but then made real because enough people believed in them
Refer to >>145255328
>neither fake nor real
Uh?
>That's the power of stories
Yes, the power to...create something that is both real and fake?
Give yourself a pat on the back, you've probably earned the "biggest retard of the year" award.

>>145255584
Good job ignoring all the reasonable arguments typed in this thread, but then again, who would read all this text, right? Only autists do that, right? Let's return to our shitposting and memeing.

File: [RUELL-Subs] Mousou Dairinin EP01 (BD 1280x720 x264 AAC ENSub(A4E)).mkv_snapshot_14.51_[2016.02.13_00.15.32].jpg (44KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

44KB, 1280x720px

>>145255538
>when something pretty convincingly establishes rules of its universe
Pretty convincingly establishes we're in surreal territory right in episode 1 with the talking plushie.

>>145255837
Except it makes sense as a whole, if Saki has mind-related problems and imagines that happening. Which was a valid line of thought until the fucking ending.

>>145255761
First of all, fuck you.

Second of all, and I'm not even trying to insult you here, you might be the autistic one if you can't understand how, in a fictional story, something can be real and imaginary at the same time.

You have no argument.

File: iphone360_54611[1].jpg (68KB, 360x570px)

68KB, 360x570px

Honestly Tokyo is just too big a of a scale. If the ending was main chick having to fight off and come to terms with the reality of Shounen Bat and there was legitimate physical damage to the apartment it'd be fine. Because it still leaves the ambiguity up in the air.

Something like that works in two ways because what we see is Shounen Bat and her causing real physical damage but because it's a small scale and there are no other witnesses there's still a degree of uncertainty. She could have just been crazy and caused all of this damage herself. Maybe she was hallucinating and fighting back against hallucinations.

A spiritual journey of a character doesn't work when you objectively lock that journey into a set reality. There needs to be room for metaphor. In the ending we got Tokyo was factually destroyed and so this monster was a real thing.

In this hypothetical ending you leave a window open and no body and there's no verification that Shounen Bat was or wasn't real and the focus is still entirely on the mental obstacles she went through and not on this rampaging monster.

tl;dr Satoshi Kon a hack

What the fuck does everyone have such a problem with Tokyo? Is this a joke?

It would make sense if the ending was localized to one person, if it was just about the insanity of one person.

It makes sense that the ending is about all of Tokyo because THE INSANITY WAS AFFECTING EVERYONE IN TOKYO. THAT'S WHY IT WAS DESTROYED. THAT'S WHAT THE GOSSIPING HOUSEWIVES WERE ABOUT.

>>145255761
>And you lost me. A thing is either real, or fake. The table in front of me is either real or fake. It's not both at the same time.
Let's explain it some more then. A thing like a chaor is real life "in front of you" is either real or fake.
But in stories it can be both if that's what the story says. Let's say the character has a chair that's always appearing near him, he can sit on it so it behaves like a real chair. But the chair is a metaphore for the character's grief about his dad's suicide or something (because his dad used a chair to hang himself up or something).
When the character gets over his grief the chair disappears and never comes back, so the chair was fake. In the end it was both at the same time. Obviously the real/fake chair makes no sense in real life but it makes sense in a story because stories don't have to work like real life.

>>145255901
>First of all, fuck you.
Nice argument.
>you might be the autistic one
Even if I am, it doesn't affect my arguments, show to me that they are bad.
>if you can't understand how, in a fictional story, something can be real and imaginary at the same time
Stories can make up stuff, but even they have to conform to certain logical rules, so that a story can be established. If you just throw a bunch of shit in together, you get an incoherent mess. But sure, surrealistic works are surrealistic for the fuck of it, but even then, they make some sense, but even then, they are fully surrealistic, not like Paranoia Agent which doesn't know what the fuck it wants to be, and I already mentioned this above, but it's not like you're going to read this much, right? We're on 4chan after all, the shithole of the internet, and you really have to be special to achieve that title on the fucking internet of all places.
>You have no argument.
Other than walls and walls of text I've typed all above, but let's ignore all that.

>>145255995
>THE INSANITY WAS AFFECTING EVERYONE IN TOKYO THAT'S WHY TOKYO LITERALLY GOT DESTROYED, GUYS LET'S GO KILL ALL THE PEOPLE IN MENTAL ASYLUMS OR CITIES WILL BE RUINED

>>145255914
>Satoshi Kon a hack
I wouldn't call him that, Perfect Blue was a masterpiece, Tokyo Godfathers too. Haven't seen Millennium Actress and Paprika yet, but I will give them a chance.

whats the problem with everyone's collective disturbed psyche manifesting into a physical, chaotic black mess that destroys the whole city?

wheres the problem with that? seems to me that it really emphasizes the results of people not being able to face reality. the whole thing is about this. whatever a drunkard finds when finally stopping with alcohol? his ruined life and health. what do the people find when its over? a ruined city.

>>145256087
>Because, logically, the real world doesn't work the same way as it did in this story, it's completely unrealistic.

You're either joking really hard or actually slightly mentally disabled. Also, come on, you were the one who started insulting me for no reason.

>>145255995

Even that could have been used better metaphorically. All of Tokyo being affected could have just meant riots and increase crime rates and suicides. But they wrote it in a way that makes the big black blob a factual thing that happened rather than a metaphor for Tokyo decaying.

It's a metaphor in our world but in the anime it's actually a big black monster birthed from all the paranoia. It's a representation of an idea but a physical one. A little more taste and effort could have made it a really effective metaphor while keeping pretty much everything the same. Hell a couple of lines could have fixed it.

>>145256087

I don't actually think he's a hack I was just memeing I still enjoy PA too. It just has a weak ending.

Oh, and don't bother watching Paprika, because it has a very similar plot to PA were people's mental states begin to change the real world.

>>145256073
I get what you mean, it's all nice and well to personalize and visualize metaphors, but only if they're in someone's mind, Satoshi Kon made this all real with the Tokyo being destroyed bullshit.

>>145256108
>whats the problem with everyone's collective disturbed psyche manifesting into a physical, chaotic black mess that destroys the whole city?
You literally answered your question.

>>145256152
>mentally disabled
I'm not seeing it.
>for no reason
Except you literally answered my wall of text by repeating the same thing and noting that you didn't read past the first line. That kind of stupid behavior can obviously irritate someone.

the current state of /a/ in a nutshell >>145255130

>>145255914
>She could have just been crazy and caused all of this damage herself

What a tweeeeest.
She couldn't get involved into the stories of all the various characters she didn't even know about.

>>145256206
But it's not a metaphor, or not JUST a metaphor. It's something that, within the context of the story, actually happened.

Mental illness is often used as a metaphor for societal ills. The line between clinical mass hysteria and run-of-the-mill mass stupidity is often blurry in real life.

>>145256073

But that goes back to individual.

Metaphors like that don't work on such a grand scale because they cease to become metaphors and become clear events that happened.

MC is the only one who really interacts with his chair and so it disappearing could be a real thing or a mental thing. Now if a giant skyscraper in Tokyo was the metaphor for his dad's suicide it suddenly doesn't work so well when we've seen dozens of characters in it and interacting with it.

>>145256231
Why would I bother reading someone's opinion on a show when explaining what actually happened?

There are way worse posts you can point at right now on /a/.

File: [RUELL-Subs] Mousou Dairinin EP01 (BD 1280x720 x264 AAC ENSub(A4E)).mkv_snapshot_21.39_[2016.02.13_00.25.48].jpg (43KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

43KB, 1280x720px

>>145255897
>if Saki has mind-related problems and imagines that happening.
>Which was a valid line of thought
Not really, we see right in the first episode that Golden Bat which just like Maromi is created by Saki has become real and attacked someone else.
So it is not valid to pretend imaginary things turning real wasn't there from the start.

>>145256304
>Metaphors like that don't work on such a grand scale because they cease to become metaphors and become clear events that happened.

Yes. That is what happened in the show.

>>145256304
Mass delusions are a real thing, anon.

>>145256314
>we see right in the first episode that Golden Bat which just like Maromi is created by Saki
But we do not know that yet, at the start it looks like a normal detective story.
>has become real and attacked someone else
Now you're claiming the metaphor became real? That's your explanation of the show? Man, let me imagine I got a blowjob from a good-looking girl, she'll become real when I'm in need of a blowjob again.

>>145256252

And that's the problem. It went from a purely cerebral thing to BIG REAL MONSTER. It makes sense because that's what they wrote but it's poorly handled

>>145256366
>Mass delusions are a real thing
Except they don't infect the real world. A bunch of people can think we're all going to die tomorrow, but that doesn't mean we're going to die.
The problem with this show is that it doesn't know if it wants to be idealistic, materialistic, surrealistic or something entirely else.

>>145256209
Thanks for the heads up, I knew it was related to dreams, but not that it was similar to Paranoia Agent.
Guess I'll just check out Millennium Actress then.

>>145256405
That's a fine opinion. Not trying to be condescending. That's okay.

It's still what happened in the show, unlike what the poster above you can't grasp.

>>145256472
>Except they don't infect the real world.
In reality they don't. In this piece of fiction they do.
Wow, how hard was it to get?

>>145256366

A magician using tricks to make people think the Statue of Liberty disappeared is different than everyone thinking a monster destroyed Tokyo.

File: [RUELL-Subs] Mousou Dairinin EP01 (BD 1280x720 x264 AAC ENSub(A4E)).mkv_snapshot_19.55_[2016.02.13_00.23.15].jpg (83KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

83KB, 1280x720px

>>145256304
>Metaphors like that don't work on such a grand scale because they cease to become metaphors and become clear events that happened.
Why not? In the chair metaphor it was about something that only affected one character. But if the story want to make a metaphor about something that affected a whole society then it can work on a large scale too.
That's exactly what they did in Paranoia Agent with Maromi becoming crazy popular and the whole city decending into chaos.
Maromi is the metaphor about post WW2 kawaii culture, escapism and avoiding responsabilities and guilt.

>>145256502
He literally has the same problem with the show as me, but you're giving him a pat on the back because he's not as aggressive about this as I am. Why not try being objective here? Not that I need you telling me my opinion is fine or anything, just saying.

>>145256520
Paranoia Agent obviously establishes that the real world functions normally, there are no indications that imaginations can come to life.

>>145256569
How do you know Tokyo was actually destroyed though? A thousand people believing a lie doesn't make it true.

>>145256595
Except for when they do.

Shit, the world could have changed and everyone could start to fly for no reason other than the fact that it's just ink on cels. Or a computer. It wouldn't be consistent, but it would be what happens.

Do you complain about how in Space Dandy the characters can die in one episode and be fine in the next? Do you really not get this?

>>145256398
>But we do not know that yet
Not really true, there's plenty of hints that point towards that. Even the detective says that Tsukiko completely made up the Golden Bat story at first, so the viewer obviously should consider that possibility.
>Now you're claiming the metaphor became real? That's your explanation of the show? Man, let me imagine I got a blowjob from a good-looking girl, she'll become real when I'm in need of a blowjob again.
Now you're claiming real life works just like fictional stories? You've already tried that before and it didn't work.

>>145255199
>He hasn't seen Tokyo Godfathers

The idea that Shounen Bat became real isn't a problem to me it's more than it went the generic big blobby monster route with it. The simplicity of just a kid with a bat was ruined for me. Would have been more interesting if it just manifested as everyone having their own Shounen Bat that tormented their mind.

>>145256697
>It wouldn't be consistent, but it would be what happens.
This isn't an argument, it still stands that the anime is shit because it doesn't know what it wants to be and doesn't establish its setting.
>Do you complain about how in Space Dandy the characters can die in one episode and be fine in the next? Do you really not get this?
Except Space Dandy had a completely different goal you thick-head. It's not supposed to be taken seriously. It's not a psychological story.

>>145256699
>Even the detective says that Tsukiko completely made up the Golden Bat story at first, so the viewer obviously should consider that possibility.
The viewer shouldn't consider that the possibility at all. It's just the beginning. You know it's a psychological story, but you don't expect it to be like this in the first fucking episode.
>Now you're claiming real life works just like fictional stories? You've already tried that before and it didn't work.
Are you really this dense? The problem is not that this isn't like real life, it's that the anime doesn't establish its own rules. NGE is an excellent anime, and it knows what it wants to be. The events in the world make sense by its standards (not our reality's standards as we don't have giant robots etc), Paranoia Agent is all over the fucking place and at times you think it's supposed to be all real, at times you think it's supposed to be all in their minds. What the fuck is happening here, what the fuck is this anime trying to be?

>>145257080
I think everyone having the same Shounen Bat worked because he started as some kind of Urban Legend/Meme.
The point isn't that suddenly everyone's personal demon became real, but that everyone started behaving the same way, running away from their problems and blaming it on this imaginary thing. The similarity isn't their problems, but how everyone is reacting to them by avoiding responsability.

>>145257212
>The viewer shouldn't consider that the possibility at all. It's just the beginning.
Why not? In the first episode, the idea that Tsukiko made up everything is brought up multiple times by several different people.
Yet at the end the character she made up suddenly appears "for real" and hits someone else. That's mysterious enough for the viewer to consider Tsukiko isn't just "imagining things".

> it's that the anime doesn't establish its own rules.
But it does right in the first episode, as I've explained to you. There's some clear surreal stuff that can't just be explained by "everything is 100% real" and/or "Tsukiko is just hallucinating stuff".

Is it confusing? Yes.
Are you supposed to wonder is stuff is real or not? Yes.
But in the end, you can understand everything and realise that all the rules had been properly set up from episode 1.

>>145257539
Your post can be summed up as "Yes, yes, it doesn't make sense at all, but you can still pretend or think you get it".

>>145257601
No I'd tl;dr it like this, "Yes, yes, it's okay if it doesn't seem to make sense at first, but once you rewatch it you'll get it."

The show is obviously trying to be confusing and blur the lines between real and imaginary.
But it is stupid to pretend that the show suddenly "switched rules" in the middle when pretty much everything is set up perfectly in the first episode.

>>145257757
I'd wish if you could explain the plot to me, so that I can get it.

>>145256216
>You literally answered your question.
No he didn't. And even if he did, I'm retarded. Care to explain why this is such an offense?
I liked it. You don't. That's ok.

>>145257829
I'm sure you get it already.
You just had to be reminded that things actually were a little bit more surreal that what you thought straight from episode 1.

>>145257979
Sorry, but I still don't get it.

>>145258033
You'll have to explain why you don't get it better than that if you want a response.

>>145258161
Easy, because "it's more surrealistic than you think" doesn't explain lots of bullshit like the one I mentioned in >>145255039

>>145254714
It's all an allegory of the dangers of delusions that are born out of streams of information that we get on daily basis.

>>145258214
I thought all of that was answered in the thread already. There's no "contradiction" about Shounen Bat a being originally made up by Tsukiko to suddenly become "real".
Remember the fake/real chair and how stories don't have to work on the same logic as real life?

>>145258467
Still saying the same things even after I've repeated who knows many times why it's wrong.
Never mind, it's a waste of time.

>>145258516
I repeat the same thing because you do too.
You say there's a contradiction.
I say there isn't and tell you there is only one explanation.
You say that explanation doesn't work with the start of the show.
I tell you and show you example of why this explanation works with what was shown in episode 1.
And now you ignore that and we're back to "muh contradiction".

This is a story about a Universe where psychological problems manifest as physical objects, and why we dont live in such a Universe. It has already destroyed itself.

Or:
You may be crazy, but at least your problems don't come alive at night and kill you, unless you actually go 100% crazy and kill youself/others.

>>145255447
So you're actually retarded then, is that it? Yes it was her lie, and yes other people used the same lie. Once it was out there it took on a literal life of its own beyond her control. Only that once it's revealed to be a hoax it breaks down everyone else's lies as well. He fucking lays it out as simply as he can without tactlessly beating you over the head with it when he has Ikari come up form the train station saying "It's just like after the war." An entire country believed they were damn near invincible until they all simultaneously learned that they weren't, and then suddenly the reality of 6 years of accumulated problem dodging came crashing down on them all at once. He's comparing the delusional attitudes carried over into the 2000s from the end of the Lost Decade to wartime nationalism.