What went wrong after Bake?

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Absolutely nothing, more screentime given to best girl as is proper

Maybe it's not that it went wrong, just that it'd be unrealistic to expect them to keep everything up to that standard.

>>144303715
iirc, Nise was never supposed to see the light of day. Nisio wrote it as like, fanfiction about his own characters. The rest of it has been very consistent though, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about

>>144303715
>What went wrong after Bake?
Shinobu got more screentime.

Tatsuya Oishi had a much reduced role after Bake. Shaft also lost a lot of its more talented staff after the Aniplex buyout which is why their stuff has been so unremarkable for the last few years

>>144303715

With Hitagi, Monogatari, or Shaft?

more fanservice, less dialogue

It got better.

Everything. Nise was disgusting.

Meme left

>>144303715
Nothing. It improved, unless you're a Crabfag.

>>144303715
Nothing. Fuck off now.

>>144304855
No those stayed pretty consistent the entire time.

>>144303715
Nothing went "Wrong"
The other seasons just had less emotion, though were still of very high quality.

>>144308581
>less emotion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex-954Qrhco
There was plenty of emotion.

>>144303715
We didn't get Kizu immediately.

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How can you say Nise was shit when we got this scene out of it?

>>144309295
That's one of the shittiest things about it.

>>144309019
thanks, i almost forgot how little emotion it had

>>144303715

Nise is better than Bake, bar ep12

>shinobu bath scene
>ararraargi/senjougahara vs kaiki
>walking home slowly
>tooth brush scene
>shinobu monologue
>shinobu shinobu and more shinobu everything

I could go on

>>144310238
>ararraargi/senjougahara vs kaiki
But you only listed one good thing

>>144303715
You

The direction isn't quite as good. Some of the faces get uguu'd sometimes. Other than that, the quality of the story has significantly improved. Plus, whatching crabfags desperately make excuses as their waifu slips into irrelevance is icing on the cake.

>>144310736

If you haven't jerked off to Shinobu monologuing for 2~ minutes in ep11 at least 10 times by now, you might be gay.

>>144311086
I'd be gay if I fapped to her worst form.

Kizu comes after Bake in reading/viewing order, so nothing went wrong. Kizu is the high point of the series and Tekketsu-hen was amazing.

>>144310883
>The direction isn't quite as good
This is it. The story may have gotten better but the storytelling got worse.

Tsubasa Tiger and Owarimonogatari were pretty good though.

The series became uninteresting and shitty after bake. Can't stand the sequels at all.

>>144309295
i hate that escene

>>144303715
Bake was already bad enough, but unfortunately it gained popularity so it became even more drawn out pseudo intellectual literary masturbation.

>>144311506
This. Nisemonogatari specially is the worst kind of otaku pandering faggotry that exists. Only subhumans enjoy that kind of trash.

>>144311184
Kizu Shinobu?

>>144312677
Oh shut up. Monogatari was "otaku pandering faggotry" from the beginning.

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>>144312937

>>144312677
Name better Otaku pandering faggotry though. That is the entire point of Nise, Nisio wrote it for his own amusement and it is the exact archetypal perfection of the craft of Otaku pandering material. And it still manages to have some backbone for various reasons such as being the introduction for the rest of the ghostbusters or the discussion on their ideals.

>>144313002
not to the degree shown in nise though

Nothing.

Owari was the strongest the anime has been since Bake.

Esoteric, uninteresting and borderline pretentious dialogue, animation and scenery not as remarkable as the first season, save for a few moments, focus on uninteresting characters and many poor character arcs.
Eh, it was alright I guess.

>>144313422
Koyomi was better.

>>144313002
Nisemonogatari was the worst because it reeks of pseudo intellectual literary masturbation.

>muh fake is better than the real thing

probably the worst kind of self-indulgent garbage I've had the displeasure to watch.

>>144313430
What's esoteric or pretentious about the dialogue?

>>144313501
>it reeks of pseudo intellectual literary masturbation
How'd you manage to get that out of Nise? I don't recall any literary references or allusions being made at all, much less claims to philosophical importance.

>>144313501

Post real intellectual literature in animu

>>144313501
>pseudo intellectual literary masturbation
Do you expect people to take your opinion seriously when you throw out strings of words like these?

>muh
Ah I see, you don't want anyone to take you seriously at all.

>all the people defending the shit after bake are in it for waifus and the fan service
As expected.

>>144313696
Fanservice and dialogue are literally the only reasons to watch Monogatari. If you were watching it for any other reason you're probably a pretentious cocksucker.

>>144313696
>waifus
Lurk more.

>>144313623
>>144313670
>>144313692
Cancerous faggots can't deal with the fact that Nisio is a fraud.

>>144303715
nothing it got much better after

No Oishi.

>>144313769
>more buzzwords without substance
All I asked was for you to clarify what you meant, and this is your reply so my guess is that you can't clarify anything and are just a shitposter.

>>144313769

Still waiting. Post real, respectable intellectual animu.

You're not one of those people who complain that everything isn't up to your almighty standards, yet refuse to share what you think is good, are you?

>>144313769
A fraud for what? What did he lie about? Do you just use words without even knowing what they mean? You can just say "I don't like it," you don't have to use terms you don't understand to dress up your opinion as critique.

>>144313750
One of those two went to shit after bake.

Nise happened. It's basically every fucking cliche taken to the extreme. Also, why the fuck would the author make Araragi cheat on the Crab girl and then make all the other girls be ok with that? It's trash.

Has Shaft done anything on par with Bakemonogatari lately?

>>144313924
at least most moeshit doesn't take itself too seriously unlike monogarbage

>>144314144
It's harem shit. It was always trash. You're trash for watching it. Fuck you.

>>144314144
Crab had her own fun with Cat too.

>>144314558
t. nigger trash

>>144314405

That's cute, the go-to response from a hundred years ago when you literally have nothing to say.

Should have used something a bit more modern, like complain about all the forced animation or writing.

>>144314627
>slideshow
>forced animation

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>>144314558
You sound pressed.

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Nothing went wrong. The only issue is that NisiO hasn't given us the college years of the Exorcists or at least more of Tooe outside of Hanamonogatari and Zokuowari.

>>144314694
REMOVE THIS

It has always been mediocre. There was that one amazing episode, tho.

>>144303715
Too many girls.

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>>144303715
What went wrong after second season you mean. But thankfully with Owari it went right again.

>>144303715
Harem

it went from a decently cute love story to generic harem bullshit, that's ok though just pretend nothing after bake (ok nise if you really want to push it) happened and it can still stand on its own

>>144314759
You mean the one with the plastered **nny?

>>144315084
And then it went to two simultaneous and superior love stories in Kizu.

>>144314333
Zaregoto

>>144303715
The art direction has been generic for a while now. While Bake was certainly self-indulgent, Nise took it to another level and the series lost part of its charm.

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>>144315005
Came here to post this.

>>144306045
Meme was one of the characters that carried Bake the most.
>>144315005
Her arc was the most uninteresting arcs in Monogatari. It was even duller than the cat arcs.

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>>144303715
not enough monkey

>>144315957
The cat arcs were great, so I guess hers was too.

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>>144315735
Good taste. I just wish Nisio introduced her early though, even if just as a random angry classmate always picking fights with Araragi.
>>144315957
Cat arcs were mostly good as well.

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>>144315957
>Cat arcs
>dull
>Math arc
>dull

Get some taste, faggot.

>>144315978
Everything looks better in the Nichijou artstyle.
>>144316171
>>144316068
>>144316043
>cat arcs outside of the original Bake arc
>not more ZZZ inducing than Hyouka
Get some taste anons.

dude CUTE GIRLS lmao

>>144316369
Tsubasa Tiger was one of the best arcs period.

>>144316446
Maybe if it wasn't the third fucking time she dealt with the exact same issue. Instead, it's yet another case of Snorebasa discovering that she's a real girl.

>>144316446
This. Tsubasa tiger was amazing.

Bake had an amazing first episode, and really good backgrounds during dialogue. I personally liked the letterboxing and photos incorporated into the story-telling, even if they can be seen as lazy. There were more animation-number sequences, and the bgm was better. I guess if they kept doing it, people might have complained it was repetitive.

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>>144316558
She didn't dealt with any issue at all in the other two times
>Got defeated by Araragi
>Got defeated by Shinobu
>Feelings still there and being suppressed
>Finally confront them on Tiger

It's like you were not even paying attention.

>>144303774
Glorious

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>>144316659
Forgot picture.

>>144316679
If you don't know what I mean, you need to strap on that retard helmet. Yeah, she finally resolved it, but it doesn't stop 80% of the story being a rehash of what happened twice before. It doesn't make her long-winded blustering interesting. Barely anything was learned about her character. She just finally went through with something she should have back in Neko Black.

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10 days till kizu bd.

>>144316941
There's a clear character development in those three arcs, and they culminate in a satisfactory conclusion. Using an "ad hominem" won't make this fact go away.

Shaft lost a lot of their better staff members and Shinbo just has fucking nothing on Oishi in any regard besides the fact he seems to be more of a fan of the series than him.

There was also some poor choices made even with Nisio overseeing the adaptation, such as vital scenes/lines being cut from Nise and Second Season.

Beyond that the tone and subject matter of the series just changed a lot as time went by. It was less "kai of the week" and had characters recur more frequently, adopted mystery elements for several arcs, expanded its scope from small-time problems to inter-dimensional/time-travelling mishaps and gods, and ramped up the pandering.

>>144317020
Nice Zelda character.

>>144317068
Shinbo isn't directing Monogatari

>>144317068
>Beyond that the tone and subject matter of the series just changed a lot as time went by. It was less "kai of the week" and had characters recur more frequently, adopted mystery elements for several arcs, expanded its scope from small-time problems to inter-dimensional/time-travelling mishaps and gods, and ramped up the pandering.

OP asked for what went wrong, not what went right.

>>144303715
Tsubasa Tiger, Shinobu Time, Nadeko Medusa and Hitagi's end were really good.

Only pretentious, jerking off, faggots think Bake is the only good thing about Monogatari.

>>144317020
It's been a long wait.

>>144317244
I mean feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Shinbo has had a director role on literally every single part of the adaptation.

My point was just that without Oishi's influence the aesthetic of the series and the animation both notably changed from Bake to Nise and onwards and became a good bit more like other series Shinbo has been a lead on.

>>144303912
links or it didn't happen

>>144317245
I'm not saying that went wrong or right, I was merely outlining what I think changed that might have led to them disliking what it is now.

And the pandering is definitely something that went wrong. The amount of fucking important shit that's been cut in episodes filled with far less vital fanservice is atrocious.

>>144317501
Shinbo is more of a supervisor and not a director for any of the Monogataris, after Bake the director switched from Oishi to Itamura.

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I dropped the series after Nise since it felt really shallow and ruined a lot of the character dynamics.
Recently I rewatched the first few episodes of bake and I remembered why I liked it so much.
So now I'm wondering if I should try and watch the later seasons. I'm guessing they're better than Nise, but honestly I'm afraid they'll butcher the characters.

I don't care for the fanservice.
Crab best girl.

>>144317772
Second Season is fantastic, as are a ton of the loose arcs.

The best arc in the entire show is Koi.

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Bake had some fanservice for the sake of jokes and character development
Everything after just has jokes as an excuse to have more fanservice

It's like how in MGS3, Eva spends the entire game half naked but it makes sense for her character and motivations
Then in MGSV, Kojima just made up a bullshit reason for the girl character to be half naked that had nothing to do with her character

>>144317501
>>144317701
Oishi is also directing Kizu.

>>144317772
Nise is the worst season, it's only uphill from there.

>>144317849
Nise at least had the excuse that most of its fanservice was directly from the LN.

Onwards from that a solid half of it is anime-original, since it's just random pantyshots or an uncomfortably long focus shot on somebody's tits that literally was not even alluded to in the LN.

>>144303715
It didn't go wrong until after Nise, when the art started going to shit.

>>144317966
Yes, but are they on par with Bake? That's what I really want to know.

>>144318009
The stories are better, the characters are more-developed, the directing is worse, but still good.

>>144318009
Some are better, some are worse, it depends on which arc of Bake you're talking about.

But it's generally of comparable quality, minus some more awakward fanservice (nothing as bad as Nise though)

>>144318009
Some arcs of SS and Owari are on the same level if not better.

What series is this?

>>144318251
Boku no Lurk More

Nothing, Tsuki and Owari are easily as good if not better in some aspects. Oishi missing is a big thing though

>>144315026
>>144315084
>it went from a decently cute love story to generic harem bullshit
Very true
>just pretend nothing after bake
Couldn't agree more

My nigga

>>144318349
>Tsuki
Fuck off

>>144318251
Pornogatari

>>144310149
>Not relating to monkey's problems

Is this what's it's like to never having friends or dreams?

>>144313501
No that was good.

>>144318009
It really depends on your tastes. The bake formula of meeting a new girl with problems in a supernatural setting based on a pun and "solving" it is over after nise, except arguably hana and owari 1. Some arcs don't even have Araragi as main character (and in the novels he is pretty much a side character at this point).

And because of that it's hard to reach a consensus on which arcs are better or worse.

>>144315084
Bake was a harem more than any other season.
Maybe nise.
In second season the harem imploded and after that it was gone
You're objectively wrong

>>144317966
Nise was better than tsuki which was just exposition

>>144318846
RRRG & Bee bathing > toothbrush.

>>144319020
Fuck, I meant Bird

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Not everything went wrong.

Otorimonogatari & Koimonogatari > Bakemonogatari > Kizumonogatari > Nekomonogatari & other Second Season arcs except Hana > Owarimonogatari > Nisemonogatari > Hanamonogatari > Tsukimonogatari

>>144318769
Yeah, I believe you.

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>>144309295
I actually skipped that whole scene in the show

>>144319309
Top tier taste.

>>144319328
>Bake
>Every arc girl is introduced
>Finds a reason to stick around Araragi
>All of them want his dick

>SS
>Cat accepts she can't have Araragi and leaves
>Snail dies again
>Snake gets btfo out of his life by Kaiki

Only monkey and crab are left.

>>144319309
>Oni and Kabuki above hana
>Oni and Kabuki above Nise
>Bake together as though Snake and Crab arc never happened

Some of this is wrong

>>144319069
If it was Bee maybe I\d buy it.
And not counting all the blatant fanservice in both Nise had actual substance behind it while Tsuki was just exposition and setting up owari.

>>144303715
Mono Season 2 is objectively better than Bake

>>144319597
Don't forget Bat.

>>144319597
>Crab, Monkey, & Bat are left
>Not harem
?

>>144319812
Yeah bat stuck around but she's like never leaving at this point.
Hana shows that even monkey is gone.

>>144319967
>Monkey is gone in hana
>Harem consists of girlfriend and some weird soulmate/vampire that lives in your shadow and yet refuses to suck your dick

It's a bit of a stretch at shit point don't you think?

I fucking love how fucking triggered MALfags get by naked loli.

>>144320062
I'm pretty sure Shinobu is raring to fuck Araragi but pride and circumstances are holding her back.

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>>144319659
I know that patrician anons used to love Hana but it was a colossal disappointment for me. In my opinion, it should've fully resolve Kanbaru's issues towards Hitagi and Araragi, or be about actual lesbianism or at least develop her relationship with Ougi-kun since it will be a thing in the future. Monkey deserved a better arc which would be actually about her, not about Rouka telling us her irrelevant backstory for 80% of the time.

Kabuki was decent, certainly better than Nise. Oni, on the other hand, was indeed shittier so probably I should've put it on par with Owari or Nise.

>>144319967
Araragi isn't around for 3/5 of Second Season. Second Season is objectively less "harem" than Bake.

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>>144317849
>>144313696

What? it's like you stopped watching after Nise and make assumption based on some virgin retard who only think with their dick. Besides one scene in Neko shiro, Hana, and tsuki there nothing "fanservicy" Basically 44 episodes out of 47 after Nise, Owari completely get ride of it.

>>144321323
If you paid attention it did resolve a lot of Monkey's problems.
Most of her issues were not about Araragi or crab though.
All that was left there was some bittersweet memories of youth. You can't fix that.

>>144322300
Yes, of course it did, but for me it still felt extremely unsatisfying.

>>144322741
Maybe it was just me but I really related to monkey's problems of leaving her friends behind and not knowing where the hell my life is going. That's my post-secondary life in a nutshell.
Having her decide to pull her shit together and work towards her goals was pretty cathartic for me.

>>144322741
I think most people feel that way because of how understated Kanbaru's development was and how ranty Rouka is. It's amusing because her story is probably even less relevant than Sodachi's, but the entire point of Hana is how Kanbaru reacts to meeting her/it and the realizations she's forced to reach. The way that Rouka was left behind to fade away mirrors how Kanbaru felt in the absence of her best friends and love interests, which is why moving past her is an important new first step. It's finality for an aspect of a side character which was barely even touched upon previously rather than anything conclusive for the series, and yet it's a really nice sort of coming of age tale with lesbian basketball devils.

>>144323025
I fully agree that Kanbaru's mental state was interesting and relatable but it didn't get a proper amount of screen time for decent execution. That's Hana's main weakness besides slow pacing.

>>144303715
fanservice, which the anime was already packed to the brim with, became way to over the top silly, to the point where Araragi literally went against his own words, regarding incest for example

Kaiki arc at the end of 2nd season was a breath of fresh air, but other than that it was all downhil from Bake

>>144303774
adult shinobu is her best version, adult > teen > loli

>>144324061
teen > kizu loli > tv loli > adult

>>144303774
I love her

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>>144303774
>Blue ray out 27th
Finally i get to watch it
I can't fucking wait for best girl

>>144323183
>probably even less relevant than Sodachi's
Not sure what you mean by that. Sodachi's story is Araragi's story until it gets to her mother's mystery near the end. The arc was to explain Kizu Araragi, and Sodachi was the main agent in that.

Rouka on the other side was Kanbaru's rival but her backstory itself isn't directly connected to Kanbaru or anyone in the story, and only indirectly tied through Kaiki and the rainy devil.

Regardless, my problem with Rouka is that she acted overall too detached and rational when narrating her story, the same issue I have with Gaen who is in fact detached from it. But I intend to read it someday, it probably works better with the actual Kanbaru's narration and introspection.

>>144324061
>adult shinobu is her best version, adult > teen > loli
This

>>144303715
>after

>>144323025
Same.

>>144321323
the only good post bake arc is hana. the rest is reddit garbage

>>144324586
I meant more how Rouka's story about feeding on suffering is less relevant to Kanbaru than Sodachi's story of ignoring the reality in front of her was to Araragi. They were both stories apart from what directly influences the major narrative, but Sodachi's was thematically relevant whereas a lot of Rouka's backstory was sort of superfluous. The way she became a devil in the aftermath of being isolated was just an example of what could have happened to Kanbaru and the larger point was the initial similarity in their situations and their direct connection (or lack thereof) in the past. Sodachi's story is instead a direct mirror of the pattern of behavior Araragi had been following which has been the root cause of everything from the moment he became a person who could ignore the reality of what saving a vampire means.

No change to the direction of the show, and even more bullshit cinematography.

>>144325304
Yeah I didn't watch it either

>>144303715
Lost its direction.

Should have ended there.

>>144327491
>end a story at the begining

>>144327491
More like it gained a direction that tied all the one-offs into a coherent whole.

>>144327780
>implying a story can't be dragged on past the point of where it's good
You must be unfamiliar with western TV shows.

Bakemonogatari should have ended after the first season.

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>>144304459
Well where the fuck did the animators? Did aniplex kill them ?

>>144327959
>comparing sit com trash with an actual story written with an end in mind

>>144328054
It's not very well written then.

>>144327959
Bakemonogatari left too much open. It basically said nothing about Araragi's power, or the deal with that mute vampire loli, or his relationship with Meme. If you said Kizu as an end point it would be at least vaguely reasonable.

>>144328088
Why not?

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I still don't get why Nise is unanimously reviled.

>>144328449
Because bake was popular enough in the west with the groups that believe that anime should be a "respectable media", and the fanservice takes away that.

Ur taste lmao

>>144328133
It also fixed exactly zero of the problems the girls had.
You could pretend that snail and crab fixed theirs but monkey and cat were confirmed not to.

>>144328931
You could have it as open endings, like what Sodachi got in the main series, in which nothing was really solved but the character ended resolved to solve it by herself.

The people who only like bake seems to enjoy open threads that add to the mystery atmosphere.

>>144303715
Worst girl won

>>144328449

it's bandwagon hate

same with Eva 3.33

>>144329691
Eva 3.33 is better than Nisegarbage

>>144328449
People saw the naked loli and decided that good writing can't have naked lolis.
Even though loli literally came from a book that is considered to have good writing.

>>144329972
That's what I love about Nise, it's casual filter is so simple yet so effective.
If someone can't explain to me the gist of the conversation that Shinobu and Araragi had and why it was important then I know I can safely ignore their opinion because they made the rookie mistake of getting distracted by the naked loli.

>>144329691
Both of those are bad.

>>144316659
Besides Bake and Kizu, there was an entirely different director wasn't there?

>>144328449

The pacing is terrible even by Monogatari standards.

>>144303715
Disney Syndrome

Up to Monogatari now and my biggest problems so far were Hanekawa's arcs. They were too fucking boring. The time travel arc was great though

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>>144336825
?

>>144336919
I think Hanekawa's arcs suffer from being so close together (if you watch it in broadcast order).
Her last arc is pretty damn great though, really shows how she went from useless dumb cunt to an actual character who has learned to stand up for herself. That was the arc that really brought her up my list. And after you get through that last arc I found myself appreciating her first two a lot more.
Tbqh I had a tear in my eye when she finally asks for her own room

>>144304459
>>144317068
>>144317501
>>144317701
>>144317863
Wait, I thought Shinbo was the one who directed Bake and Kizu and made the series so popular to begin with. Who is Oishi?

>>144336926
When the quantity demanded exceeds the quantity-quality ratio.

>>144328133
>or his relationship with Meme
why did they have to push him out completely? I liked his character, I get the whole Araragi needs to fix his shit himself thing, but they could have at least brought him back occasionally, or let him play a bigger role in an arc or two, kinda like they did with Kaiki

Is second season as good as people say it is? I recently finished the beginning Hanekawa arc and it felt a bit underwhelming. I remember liking Bake and Nise quite a bit when I watched them years ago.

>>144340882
Some people don't like Hanekawa arcs. Just watch the rest and form an opinion.

>>144340882
>Is second season as good as people say it is?
there are some good bits and some dull bits there, you'll have to watch it and decide for yourself I'm afraid

>>144328931
Makes it feel more realistic.

>>144328931
nothing wrong with that I think, some of the arc being open ended would be ok

>>144319309
>Gahara makes his dick go upwards
>Nadeko gives him a straight erection
>Kanbaru gives him a why boner

>>144345791
>Hanekawa breaks his dick several times

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>>144337244
>watches Shaft series
>browses Shaft threads
>discusses Shaft productions
>doesn't know who Tatsuya Oishi is

>>144337244
Shinbo hasn't directed anything in years.

>>144304459
Oshiete anon
What's the whole story? I've been in a comma for five years

>>144303715
Different director.
Snake and Kaiki arcs in SS are probably my favourite in the series though.

>>144346621
https://wavemotioncannon.com/2016/03/21/shinbo-is-dead-a-new-generation-of-shaft/

>>144346908
So is Shaft the new Gainax?

>>144346908
>Nobuyuki Takeuchi
Seriously, give this guy his own series already

>>144347030
Shinbo hasn't run away to start a new company to butcher his previous works like Anno did.

>>144347229
kek

>>144346908
I still think they're giving Shinbo far less credit than he deserves

As the head of the Studio and chief director I wouldn't be surprised if he was actually the one who chose to adapt Monogatari the way they did, focusing in the perception of the characters over the actual narrative

Literally everything. It's the Souls franchise of anime.

>>144348085
Any interviews to confirm?

>>144303715
Everything.

>>144348420
Well, he's the chief director so it would make sense to think he has the most influence on their decisions

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>>144316941

You sound like one of the people who believed Oshino's dreck in Neko Black. In Tiger, we got inside her head and actually learned why she thinks the way she does.

In Family, all we got were Oshino's biased viewpoint gleaned from two people who had wanted to abandon an orphan because she made them feel bad about being terrible people. If you took only their part of the story, Hanekawa was a sociopath. Then we learned everything in White.

Hell, there are STILL people who think she wants to steal Araragi from Senjougahara, that she hated her parents instead of truth of her developing her abnormality because she wanted to get along with them. And the idea she never sought help or told anyone about her situation before Araragi, when it was revealed she told friends who then shunned her because of her freaky parents after they visited her house. Although much of this is because the anime kind of skimmed over important details about her past and cut a significant portion of her confessions to Black Hanekawa in the letter. Plus it cut hugely important parts of the epilogue about her going home in tears to what she knew was going to be an unloving home no matter what she did, and resigning herself to just demanding just a room for herself until she graduated and moved out.

Most people thought her life was flowers and honey after Tiger, when it was still pretty shit. Did they miss the fact she spent New Years at a hotel in Koi instead of at home? There is a reason for that.

Tiger put all the older arcs in a different perspective. We even found out the real reason why she loved Araragi, that it was because she knew he was a pretty pathetic guy who still tried his best, not him being a prince.

>>144348585
I love Hanekawa!

>>144303715
>normalfags bait is good
Ok anon.

>>144346311

I do wonder why some think he doesn't love Hanekawa when he admits to having saved her braids in his room, constantly refers to her as "My Hanekawa", and even the guy who hates her guts called Araragi out about liking her.

>>144348585
I don't think it even takes Neko White to realize how much of what Oshino said was bullshit. Yeah, her parents aren't 2D villain cardboard cutouts and have reasons to be the way they are, but it's laughable to say the child abuse was justified because Hanekawa was a little weird.

The way Oshino treated Hanekawa as a whole really turned me off on his character. He's immature as fuck.

>>144348955
It's because his feelings are complicated and conflicted, but a lot of Monogatari fanbase thinks that feelings are black and white (pun not intended) and you can't resent someone a little but still overwhelmingly love them. It's kind of weird, since the entire point of Monogatari is that people can have duality in their emotions and personality, but it doesn't make either side of them "fake."

>>144303912
Not even Bake was meant to come out, it was hobby writing from the start.

>>144338160

He is gone for a reason further than asking Araragi to take care of things for himself is all I will say. Let's also say the person who helps him should surprise even a bum like him.

But he (and Gaen) are too much of a plot device, like Yuuko in xxxHolic or Rakan was on Negima. You keep characters like that to a minimum to both keep their mysterious air (which is 90% of why people like them), and because they are "badass adults", so the people who have self-shame about anime can gloat about these "deep philosophical individuals" in the show who help the "kids".

>>144349164
>Let's also say the person who helps him should surprise even a bum like him.
He didn't act especially grateful for it.

>>144349081
>The way Oshino treated Hanekawa as a whole really turned me off on his character. He's immature as fuck.
This

Fuck that nigga

I miss watching monoshit. Owari cour 2 fucking when?

>>144303715
pleb who has watched up to neko, I never really noticed a difference.

educate me

>>144349412
it's bait. some arcs are better than the others and nise was never supposed to be published let alone animated, but overall it's the same shit all throughout.

>>144349081
>The way Oshino treated Hanekawa as a whole really turned me off on his character. He's immature as fuck.

It gets kind

But yes, they were just ordinary people who were very self centered and selfish, but extremely paranoid about society, so they did the minimum they could do to not get arrested. They just wanted a life on easy street living off alimony payments from dead spouses, didn't want to deal with a kid who wasn't theirs so they told her she was going to an orphanage in grade school, but couldn't justify that because she wasn't a bad kid, nor were they financially unfit. So they fostered resentment toward her and each other because the other reason they didn't want to have a family was because of it being too hard. Which was why Hanekawa said in the letter they should never have bothered getting married in the first place with such a mentality. With such a mindset, the kid being so good made you feel like crap, reminding you of what you really are. That being the only part Oshino got right, but the tone was different, with the argument of her being at fault for not knowing her "strength" as a person in the presence of these weaker people.

They were basically the ultimate slackers on the inside, taking advantage of the fact Japanese society has a "keep your shit to yourself" mentality, and Hanekawa never reported them likely for the same reasons Sodachi didn't, which was an advantage for both sets of parents. Believing it was the fault of them not being good enough children and not wanting to deal with the fallout or admitting that all the time they spent enduring that life was a waste. Which of course fosters resentment and a skewed view of love.

>>144349833

Whoops, cut it off a bit there.

I meant to say for the first part it gets kind of funny, because he mentions how Hanekawa ruined his plans to play the villain in Kizu with stealing Shinobu's heart to foster the goings-on in the story. It is kind of comical.

Shaft has been mailing it in on this series for a while. They must've saw how little return they got from the massive sales due to Aniplex taking it all and got disillusioned

>>144349081
>The way Oshino treated Hanekawa as a whole really turned me off on his character. He's immature as fuck.

Oshino was in the right though. He helped Hanekawa out greatly multiple times and the fact he knew the type of person she was liable to turn into meant that he'd rather not get involved if he didn't have to.

He could have solved the entire Neko Black arc in a night if he wanted to but he trusted that Hanekawa and Araragi could sort that issue in the way Senjougahara in the future would be able to.

>>144350282
How the fuck is blaming an abused child for being abused in the right? Hanekawa wasn't really "liable to turn into" anything. He assumed she was Gaen 2.0 but her personality is completely different.

>>144350422
He didn't blame Hanekawa, he said he understood the parents points of view and that he was being a middleman like usual.
People assume because Oshino states how the other party feels and that he can understand their point that suddenly it's the same as being all for child abuse.

I understand exactly where Hanekawa's parents were coming from. If I had to take care of a kid that wasn't mine, made me feel uncomfortable even in my own house and I couldn't get rid of it then I can see how the feeling of lashing out would build up over time.
Especially since from an in-universe perspective, Hanekawa's personality could easily be mistaken as insincere which in Neko Black it actually was even if she herself was a good person.
The Sawarineko possessed Hanekawa at the start because her inherent good nature was mechanical and something she didn't actually do because she was a good person but because it was expected of her.

Also he was right, she is Gaen 2.0. The only difference is that she can actually make friends but ultimately that is the only real difference between them.

>>144350282

You are giving him a little too much credit there. He fought her all those times because he was at a loss, and gave Araragi the completely opposite mindset going to face her.

So Araragi, with his own cracked mindset, gave her the answer of "continue to hold it in, that's what strong people do, but if you want to kill me, you can" instead of the answer he eventually came up with in Tiger, which was "be who you really are, and I'll be here for you, but I won't give you special treatment".

Hanekawa was only helped because she wanted to change, it had nothing really to do with him.

Another guy said it best for Oshino's eventual meetup with her again, he never treats her any differently, no matter how she has changed. It's hilarious. Girl even gives him more free stories for his work on top of the one she gave to help with a certain case we find out in Owari in Tsubasa Sleeping. I still find it baffling the girl respects this guy, Kaiki is right, she shouldn't emulate him. Sad enough, he might be the only real semi-positive adult role model in her life.

>>144350621
He fought her all those times because he wanted to avoid having to actually go full Yozuru on her ass.
If Araragi had failed eating the sword, Oshino was going to have to fully drop Black Hanekawa to preserve the balance and he could have done it.

Kaiki said she shouldn't emulate both himself and Oshino in the way that she shouldn't become an exorcist or a vagabond since it's a terrible way to live. He wasn't shitting on Oshino's personality specifically.

>>144350600
He didn't just explain the parents' point of view. It's like >>144349833 said, the tone of his speech was that Hanekawa was at fault for not knowing her "strength" as a person and making other people feel bad about themselves by being too good. That's ridiculous. Yes, it makes sense why her parents would feel uncomfortable, but just because their feelings are understandable doesn't make them justified or right.

She is nothing like Gaen and you don't really understand either character if you say that. Gaen is egotistical and purposely manipulates things so she is in control of all situations at all times. Hanekawa is incredibly, genuinely self-effacing and lives life knowing that she is inexperienced and wants to face new experiences to better herself. Their intelligence and ability to see through people aside, they're practically opposites.

>>144350910
>Gaen is egotistical and purposely manipulates things so she is in control
So is Hanekawa

Protip: Kizu

>>144350956
How was any of that egotism or manipulating the situation? Are you being willfully dense?

>>144350763

Fighting her was in effect the worse thing to do, because all it did was add to her mental arsenal while not helping the core issue. Her answering Araragi's text meant she wasn't a lost cause or just some sociopath pretending to be good. Sure, the morals were mechanical, but we know for a fact she was telling the truth about trying to be a good daughter in Bake. Her foster parents just didn't WANT a daughter, no matter how good she was, so not having that justification of her being a bad seed caused resentment. Her abnormality is what she believes "normal" is.

It's the same thing in Suruga Monkey, he suggested she cut off the arm instead of just suggesting they call in Senjougahara first. Her beating Araragi's guts in didn't help anything ultimately and in some ways causes her to regress with guilt.

It's like a person who takes the idiom that some wounds need to gouged out first to heal to an unreasonable extreme.

And while I agree becoming like the exorcists isn't what she should do, Kaiki did specifically say that she shouldn't emulate Oshino, because he knows the guy is kind of chuuni around kids especially, I cite my earlier post in the thread about him playing the villain in Kizu.

>>144350910
>Gaen is egotistical and purposely manipulates things so she is in control of all situations at all times.

And Hanekawa isn't? Are you just forgetting that Hanekawa being both those things is why Oshino thinks Hanekawa is the second coming of Gaen?

I'd really you rather not throw mud at people's understanding of characters if you yourself aren't exactly a paragon of understanding.

Just because Gaen is a cunt doesn't mean Hanekawa isn't an egotist.
Gaen is just what happens when someone actively attempts to enjoy the gifts they are given and understand that not everything can have a perfect outcome.

There is also the fact Izuko has much harsher issues to deal with when it comes to being an exorcist.
She's not able to actively rely on people in the way Hanekawa does.
Unlike Hanekawa who's associates are for the most part functioning members of society. Gaen is stuck with a two devious bastards, a wild woman who doesn't listen and a hermit so removed from society that he's got zero issue killing humans if it wasn't for the fact that he's afraid of Tooe and didn't know Kanbaru was her daughter ahead of time.

>>144351202
Oshino is so quick to get up on his "don't play the victim" high horse that he comes down on problems way harder than he needs to. I'm not sure why every single person in the cast seems to consider him a "good person."

>>144329691
>same with Eva 3.33
C'mon pal, you are not fooling anyone. 3.33 was awful in every shape, way and form.

>>144351202
>Fighting her was in effect the worse thing to do

We're in agreement here, Oshino is also in agreement since he explicitly avoids fighting since he knows that it's not the right way to go about things but sometimes it is a necessity.

As for the Suruga Monkey thing. Him suggesting to cut Kanbaru's arm off was just one of many routes he suggested.
He had to make sure Kanbaru understood that nearly killing a guy is going to come with consequences and that Araragi's insistence that he could fight to show the Rainy Devil that the contract cannot be fulfilled was just one of the many options Oshino had planned.

The fact in Mayoi Hell Tadatsuru explicitly mentions that Oshino out of necessity is the kind of man who attempts to have a plan for every outcome backs up this interpretation.
the fact he spoke to Tadatsuru ahead of time to ensure Araragi didn't get fucked up knowing that Araragi might do something that couldn't be predicted was just a solid move from Oshino's part.

I think Kizu said it best when he was called Oshino the Opportunist.

>>144351287
Hanekawa literally isn't. When you read the stories from her POV, it's a constant stream of putting herself down and blatantly underestimating herself. She's practically oblivious to how "abnormal" she is and only has any inkling of it because other people point it out to her.

I'm not shitting on Gaen either; she's a really interesting character. Gaen isn't literally omniscient, she just uses her resources to the fullest and sticks her fingers in all the pies so she is on top of all things at all times, effectively giving her a makeshift, self-made kind of omniscience. Hanekawa has no interest in that.

>>144350956

If we are being completely objective yes, it's the same thing, but the difference is being self-aware which is actually a pretty huge difference.

Hanekawa manipulates the situation with being genuine and actually caring about what people say or feel. While Gaen purposefully attaches herself to people's weaknesses, so they have no choice but to follow her to escape worse consequences.

It's the feeling and intention that seperate the two, even Gaen's dead sister thinks that. Gaen doesn't make friends because people are pawns on the chessboard to be moved at will, and helped if they offer her some recompense. Hanekawa actually feels bad about using people for a goal and shows that.

If they were the same, Araragi wouldn't feel put off by Gaen and no outright irritated when she says the counter to Hanekawa's catchphrase "There is nothing I don't know".

>>144351543
Everyone in Monogatari puts themselves down except for Kaiki who still tries to deny that he's a soft cock.
Kanbaru's is literally just her talking about how shit she is and how she hates everything while Nadeko is about how she hates herself and people for liking the her that she acts like.

Hanekawa being nice about her manipulative self ideally actually makes her worse about it. When you're being fucked by Gaen, at least you know why you're being fucked and what the results that are to be expected.
Hanekawa just straight up goes full subversive and doesn't actually include the person being manipulated into her plans. Araragi had zero clue Hanekawa was playing him in Kizumonogatari even if it was to his benefit.
Though to say it was to his benefit implies what Gaen does is somehow not for the benefit of humanity which would be incorrect.
"The devil you know" is pretty appropriate here in regards to Gaen and Hanekawa.

>>144351967
How was Hanekawa manipulating Araragi in Kizu? She was being an aggressive busybody, but essentially all she did was hang around him and give him advice.

>>144352108
Nothing Araragi did was ever of his own volition except for at the very start when he let Kiss-shot nom him.
Everything important that happened was generally because Hanekawa got involved and told him what he should be doing.
Araragi never got to really figure out anything by himself, never got to really make any real choices once Hanekawa popped into the scene.
Even if it worked out for the best, for anyone to give Gaen shit about her results and methods but not applying the same to Hanekawa would be hypocrisy.
What they both do is manipulate the situation by giving good advice here and there to get the result they want.

>>144352108
She made him to deal with Kaiki by forcing Araragi's hand by getting his sisters involved.

>>144352334
That's not manipulation, though. That's advice, which she was straightforward about giving. It's really not the same thing as buying favors, moving pieces, forcing people to do your bidding, all while not telling them what you're up to.

I'm not even saying what Gaen does is bad. She gets shit done. I'm just saying that Gaen and Hanekawa don't have similar personalities.

>>144352349
That was Nise. I haven't watched Nise in a long enough time that I can't honestly comment on it, but if my memory serves me right, didn't her helping the Fire Sisters have nothing to do with Araragi?

>>144351967
>Hanekawa being nice about her manipulative self ideally actually makes her worse about it. When you're being fucked by Gaen, at least you know why you're being fucked and what the results that are to be expected.
>Hanekawa just straight up goes full subversive and doesn't actually include the person being manipulated into her plans. Araragi had zero clue Hanekawa was playing him in Kizumonogatari even if it was to his benefit.
>Though to say it was to his benefit implies what Gaen does is somehow not for the benefit of humanity which would be incorrect.
>"The devil you know" is pretty appropriate here in regards to Gaen and Hanekawa.

Gaen knows people's reactions, her not being able to stand Yozuru but being able to handle her. It's a policy that enables you to see Gaen's position more clearly than Hanekawa's, but that is only because she has their balls firmly in her hand in a vice grip with blackmail insurances abound if a plan fails. Even if something fails, she at least is safe and did watching from on high. Though it still makes me wonder why she didn't just use Hachikuji from the beginning as the city's deity instead of allowing the Nadeko incident to happen by suggesting Shinobu should do it, Araragi's personality screamed that was no go from the start.

Hanekawa doesn't follow that type if safety protocol in her planning. She puts herself out there, like helping out Drama-kun in Germany on her way to trying to find Oshino could have cost her everything and gotten her eaten alive, and she did it on and whim. Reckless as it is, the least you know if something fucks up is that she wouldn't want it to happen and puts her balls on the line for you. That is why some people would automatically feel better about one than the other.

>>144352554
Lets be honest. Would you listen to Gaen if she gave you unsolicited advice?
I think Gaen has put herself in a catch-22 where she has to be a prick because I don't think anyone is going to take a 38 year old woman wearing baggy clothes at coming in at a commanding 4 ft 11 seriously.

>>144352784
Using Snail doesn't solve the Kiss-shot issue.
I'm guessing Gaen was also trying to remove Kiss-shot from the picture by forcing her into a role where she isn't able to become a variable.
Mayoi also isn't a perfect fit for the role either however. "Close enough" is pretty much how Gaen sums it up when it comes up at the end of that book.

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Everything went right, I got to know my waifu.

>>144352945
Your waifu has a dick

>>144352554
>That was Nise. I haven't watched Nise in a long enough time that I can't honestly comment on it, but if my memory serves me right, didn't her helping the Fire Sisters have nothing to do with Araragi?

Yes. She just wanted to help them.

I think Kaiki, while he still believed she was like Gaen, said to her when she explained that she helped the two to "not act like she was merely assisting those children". He thought she was actively looking to lead those two as boss, like Gaen does, and was only be pretending to be humble.

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>>144353057
Do you think I care? I don't give a shit whether she has a 10 inch cock or if she has a smooth pussy, I still love her and I'd still make love to her or have her do it to me. It's love, it goes beyond whatever your loved one has between their legs.

>>144353096
>said to her when she explained that she helped the two to "not act like she was merely assisting those children".
Are you referring to his line in Koi when they first meet? In that case, I think you're remembering it wrong. He said, "Children shouldn't speak in such a formal way" because she was going full keigo on him.

>>144311480
Owari was the best since Nise IMO.

>>144353247

No, he pretty much tries to call her out for saying she was "just" an assistant to the Fire Sisters. I can find the chapter if you want:

https://eldridge.dreamwidth.org/270.html

>>144353468
That's a mistranslation, friendo. I have Koi open in front of me right now, the Japanese line is 子供がそこまで畏まった言葉遣いをするものじゃないぞ。

Is bake anyone else's least favorite?
so much pointless shit is spent on explaining the apparitions and useless shit

i loved nise and second season is hit and miss with some of it's stuff being incredible and some decent

owari feels the same way but is still more enjoyable because of sodachi

>>144353767
You're not alone, anon. Bake spent the most time on meandering, pointless dialogue with underdeveloped characters. It probably doesn't help that I don't really care for Senjougahara and Araragi's relationship.

>>144353598

Hmm, interesting. It was one of the only places I could find Koi chapters translated since BT only has a couple, and I really wanted to know how that chapter went in depth, and the next one too.

Clearly nothing as Monogatari is the deepest and most complex series ever made. SHAFT are literally amazing for adapting Nisio's masterpieces.

>>144353999
I've considered translating those few chapters from Koi since I really like Hanekawa. I sort of want to do the Kaiki vs Nadeko showdown, too, since I love that part and I think the anime sort of botched Nadeko's betrayal at parts.

I have like a zillion parts of Monogatari I want to translate, though, so it's hard to find the time.

>>144354096
Er. That should be "portrayal," not "betrayal."

>>144352790
>I think Gaen has put herself in a catch-22 where she has to be a prick because I don't think anyone is going to take a 38 year old woman wearing baggy clothes at coming in at a commanding 4 ft 11 seriously.

So she is not only lacking curves, pretty flat, but also SHORTER than Cat?

Is that the other reason why she shits on Tsubasa so much? Maybe that bit about being jealous of her curves was truth.

>>144354201
It's not exactly like Hanekawa isn't a manlet herself. She's only like 5 ft 2 or 5 ft 4.

Also I'm 90% confident she was actually being serious when she said she was jelly of Tsubasa's "muchi muchi" body.
Though I mean serious in a patronizing way where even though Gaen is telling the truth, you still feel as if somehow you are being put-down.

>>144354074
Even thought you're being ironic Monogatari is legit one of my favorite series ever

>>144354074
bad bait

>>144353767
Bake was a good show. It's OP's and ED were great. The story was awesome. The pacing was too quick for me. The dialogue was quirky. The girls were interesting.

Solid 9/10 for me, but after watching it again recently I see why it has its failings.
I now think some arcs in SS and Owari were better than Bake.

>>144319597
>All of them want his dick

Kanbaru, Shinobu and Snail didn't want his dick in Bake. Neither did his sisters honestly so you're a faggot.

>>144355017
The "Araragi's sex slave" joke started in Bake.

So we all agree that Math arcs were by far the shittiest?
>hurr i forgot what happened 5 years ago

>>144355155
That doesn't mean she wants his dic...


Okay yes it does but the other points stand.

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>>144355762
They were some of the best for me, and episode 6 might be my favorite in the entire series.

And they clearly explained that it was something that he deliberately avoid remembering but was on his mind. He only forgot the time when Sodachi lived with him.

>>144303715
Bake is the most pretentious pile of artsy bullshit that I've ever watched. It trues so hard to be deep and meaningful that it just comes off as arrogant and boring. Inb4 you didnt understand it its just 2intellectual4u

>>144356085
Elaborate.

>>144356207
He's just buzzwording.

>>144355905
>He only forgot the time when Sodachi lived with him.

Anyone else think this was odd and that Araragi Mama and Papa are just bad at this rescuing children from abuse thing?

I mean, none of their children remember all these kids who supposedly lived with them. And the parents just let a child walk back to an abusive household and didn't bother with the case after that.

It kind of makes it more evident with the way Araragi's mother handled Hanekawa. The speech sounds nice, but really? That is what your police training on counseling and your experience as a mother tells you to say?

>>144303715
Everything. I stopped caring midway through Nise and finally dropped it around the demon arc.

>>144356207
If you can't recognize how shitty and pretentious the show is then I'm afraid that you have terrible taste friendo.

>>144356523
That's not an answer.

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>>144356402
We don't know what happened with the other kids. The araragi's might have simply given the choice to the kids, and many were sent to foster parents after confirming their situation.

Nadeko said that Sodachi was exceptionally creepy as a kid, so I assume she never said anything and when she came back the Araragi's respected her decision, even though she clearly wasn't capable of making this choice.

>>144356402
Yeah, I have no idea why people think what she said to Hanekawa was cool or awesome. Aside from the part where she says that "if a parent doesn't get along with their child, it's the same as abuse," she didn't really have anything helpful to say, and in fact basically told her not to get too comfortable in their home.

>>144356207
>>144356321
There's nothing to elaborate on, you window-licking retards. He literally just described every episode of Bake

>>144356207
>Elaborate.
Eat shit.

>>144356828
>>144356877
At least give a real answer if you're going to respond to the same post 3 times.

>>144315005
What does that even mean. You mean the 4 episodes of Tsuki?

>>144356523
>>144356085
>>144356828
Literal shitposts without any substance addressing the question asked.

>>144357443
Hana and tsuki by anime definitions.

>>144356085
>>144356828
at least stop samefagging faglord

>>144357717
>cancerous pleb mad because his normalfag bait shit got called out

>>144315005
About to watch Owari.

>>144357848
prepare to be spooked

>>144357835
cancerous nigger spotted

>>144357981
Don't reply, she just wants attention

Any of you fags have tabs/sheet music for Suteki Meppou?

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>>144357848
Just go considering that while it's the end story, the actual end will be in a future season. And it's probably better watched after you read Kizu, since the first half explain Kizu Araragi besides setting up for the ending, and the second half is about Araragi's relationship with Shinobu.

>>144311506
Totally agree friend. Bake was a solid 8/10, and everything that came after was 5/10, or a 6 at best. Dissapointing considering that bake actually made me feel something

>>144329972
>People think Nise is bad because of the bath scene
What? Nise is bad because of the awful writing and pacing.

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>>144356828
>>144356085
>>144356523

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Too much crab

>>144359255
>5/10 or a 6 at best
Mayoi Jiangshi
Shinobu Time
Tsubasa Tiger
Tsukimonogatari
Nadeko Medusa
Hitagi End
Ougi Formula
Sodachi Riddle
Sodachi Lost
Shinobu Mail (not part 1 tho)
Were all 8/10 AT LEAST. Since bake there have only been 2 bad parts, nise and Hana.

>>144303715
I've never seen a serie falling so hard after such a strong first season.
Is Kizu out in BD yet? Maybe I'll give that a chance since it's before bake.

>>144356523
>I don't have an actual argument so I'll just chalk it up to you being too stupid
You probably like magic high-school battle harems

>>144361122
Kizu is chronologically before bake but was written after it like the rest.

>>144361013
but she is best girl

>>144361048
Tsuki, Shinobu Time, and all the Owari arcs besides the first were all pretty mediocre imo.

>>144361425
It has the same director as Bake though. Rabid crabfags still aren't going to like it because they're waifu isn't in it.

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>>144303715
You know what?
I think Bakemonogatari is the weakest of them all.
There. I said it. Nobody ever explains why Bakemonogatari is "so much better" than the other seasons.

For me, all the characters are established already and you can explore them, they're already comfy with RRG and eachother and their conversations are more exciting, not to mention the oddities are a lot more intriguing and not simply:
Girl has an oddity -> RRG asks Oshino to do something -> Oddity is solved, girl wants to slobber Rarararagi's cock.

>>144361827
>All the Owari arcs
There are only two adapted though.

I agree about Tsuki and Shinobu Time at least.

>>144362018
In terms of source material, Bake is easily one of the weakest books. The direction is what elevates it so much. The rest of the books almost all have better material, for the reasons you said, but the direction is like a pale imitation of Bake's.

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>>144361827
In terms of anime Riddle and Lost were better than Formula, mostly because Formula is a mystery that you can't really solve as the adaptation couldn't cover the actors at all.

>>144362103
>one of
two of, oops.

>>144362036
There's Formula, the two Sodachi Arcs, and Shinobu Mail.

>>144362264
Yeah, I fucked up. I thought Lost was excellent despite the weak conclusion tho.

>all this talk of Oishi
Looks like Neo-/a/ hasn't taken over after all. Oishi's stuff is a gem, I didn't realize he had been working on Kizu for 5 fucking years, I thought he just quit shaft.

That said, he made a huge fucking difference in Bake. With his work on PPD and hidasketch, he seems to love three things in particular

- Heavily limited palette that persist through entire episodes
- Emphasis on geometric set design and framing
- Simple, straightforward, Ozu-esque angles. Lots of characters facing the camera directly or profile shots.

Even in the original Bake, there's a huge tonal shift between the first two episodes and the snail arc, where Oishi took charge. That's a big part of the reason I think the first two were by far the weakest part of the show, they didn't mesh with the rest and the visuals, while abstract, weren't in line with the eraserhead shit that Oishi establishes later.

Looking at Itamura, who has a lot more in common with Shinbou's early stuff, a la Soultaker and Cossette, the difference is day and night.

>>144362128
>>144361827
>>144362103
>>144362036
Bake was probably the weakest book in terms of style and characterization. The dialogue simply isn't as polished and the jokes not as funny.

That said, it does have what the other books, and the series as a whole, is starved of. A goddamn three-act structure revolving around a theme. That's what makes the anime so much better. It revolves around an idea, a story, with proper pacing and a central concept rather than being episodic. Crab, Snail, Monkey, Snake and Cat arcs all revolve around this idea of fidelity and communication in relationships, and we get to see Araragi work through his problems with his new girlfriend and his own values, with proper goddamn character development. The other books rarely go anywhere with the characters, and if they do, it doesn't contribute to a theme.

What's the overall message of the monogatari series? It's not as clear and focused as Bake.

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>>144362437
It seems like that because episode 6 was essentially the conclusion for Sodachi. The lessons she got that would allow to move on were all on that episode. You can easily jump from that episode to Sodachi Fiasco with just the information that she moved away from the city.

The mother mystery was more of an epilogue to explain the tension between Ougi and Hanekawa, Hanekawa moving away and Araragi for the first time not turning the blind eye to Sodachi's situation. Sodachi already knew about her mother, it was a case of selective blindness, to mirror Araragi's situation.

>>144363064
>What's the overall message of the monogatari series?
It's about growing up, which includes accepting yourself and choosing your own path. Each character took different times, but at this point pretty much everyone already accepted their fucked up pasts and decided what they want to do. After bake only Crab had developed this far, which is why she went to the background comparably.

>>144363064
The series moved away from a central theme after Bake, but it gained several central plot threads, so all of the events became more coherent. The whole theme of Bake got kind-of preachy anyways. I prefer the more character-focused parts that happen after.

>>144364038
If it becomes more fragmented, how is it more cohesive?

>>144363726
>It's about growing up, which includes accepting yourself and choosing your own path. Each character took different times, but at this point pretty much everyone already accepted their fucked up pasts and decided what they want to do. After bake only Crab had developed this far, which is why she went to the background comparably.

That's some bullshit and you know it. Not because it isn't necessarily true, but because it's so vague and unclear. Accepting yourself. Half the stories are about characters breaking bad habits and changing who they are. And you could say the same about virtually anything.

K-on was all about growing up, accepting yourself and choosing your own path

Evangelion was all about growing up, accepting yourself and choosing your own path

Boku no Pico was all about growing up, accepting yourself and choosing your own path

The third one actually makes a lot of sense, if you think about it.

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>>144357717
>>144360912
>Anyone who thinks Bake is pretentious and up its own ass must be samefagging
That fedora must be on tighter than I thought. Might wanna loosen it to get the blood circulating again.

>>144366699
>samefag and phonefag
2 in 1!

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>>144366856
Are you actually retarded?

>>144366208
Well, not saying it was effectively just focusing on growing up, but it is certainly what it proposed to be. It's not supposed to be a particularly exotic story setting, and Nisio pushes stuff it with the whole "not expect anything dramatic from life". For example:

Araragi stops being a loner that dislikes relationships, gets a girlfriend and goes to college.

Nadeko stops being a yes-woman and take control of her life by deciding to draw manga.

Hanekawa gets to a compromise with her family and goes to find herself traveling around the world.

I don't remember almost anything about hana, but Kanbaru moved on from what was holding her back including her envy and hate toward Araragi.

Sodachi's name literally means "growing up", her arcs are the "growing up riddle", "growing up lost" and "growing up fiasco".

It does get more abstract with the supernatural characters though. But Hachikuji was more or less about finding her place, and Shinobu has multiple themes as the most important character. Yotsugi I really don't know.

>>144366208
Bake didn't have a core objective or threat. The events were linked thematically, but just sort-of petered out at the end. By Second Season there is a main objective and a main threat. It also expands upon the characters that were already established instead of hopping to a new one each arc, so there a better sense of continuity in that sense as well.

>>144366915
>naruto
It doesn't end!

>>144313552
Not the same anon but

>What's esoteric or pretentious about the dialogue?

Because spending 5 minutes on dialogue just the characters repeating the same sentence to argue about the meaning of words or names is such quality writing. Katanagatari 95% by Nisio is dialogue with 50min episodes and doesn't have even a fraction of pretentious dialogue Bake has.

>>144367054
>Bake didn't have a core objective or threat. The events were linked thematically, but just sort-of petered out at the end. By Second Season there is a main objective and a main threat. It also expands upon the characters that were already established instead of hopping to a new one each arc, so there a better sense of continuity in that sense as well.

You don't need a clear antagonist to have a thematic underpinning, which is what Bake had. Second season has threats, but doesn't link to the themes of the other seasons, nor do the series as a whole form a concrete story arc.

>>144367010
But again, your definition is so vague as to encompass almost anything. That's my point. All stories, in some way or another, are about growth and change. That's what makes them interesting to read. It doesn't count as a theme that belies the surface.

Do I think fiction necessarily needs a strong theme to tie it together? Certainly not. But without ideas that hold the series together something as vast and character filled as monogatari descends into episodic chaos rather than a cohesive whole. If that's your thing, be my guest. Nothing wrong with Gintama. But at the very least, the existence of a proper story arc and thematic subtext are what seperates Bake from the rest.

>>144368193
>nor do the series as a whole form a concrete story arc.
I'm pretty sure the reason you like Bake the best is because you turned your brain off after watching it.

>>144368267
>I'm pretty sure the reason you like Bake the best is because you turned your brain off after watching it.

Any series of stories can be a 'story arc'. But pacing and progression is what puts the good story arcs ahead of the bad ones. All of monogatari might be considered a story arc, but the action is displaced and episodic, nor do themes established throughout the series progress and reach natural conclusions.

I don't dislike the other monogataris. They have their own merits. But like most sequels they don't really coalesce into a three act structure naturally simply due to the fact that they're sequels.

That's true for anything, not just monogatari.

>>144368193
>is so vague as to encompass almost anything
It focus on a particular period of life though, which makes it a coming-of-age story, which is a defined genre. But like I said, it didn't proposed an exotic theme, besides the addition of fantasy elements. More specific themes are dealt based on each character's situation and arc.

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>>144353185
The words of a true fucking man.

>>144338160
>why did they have to push him out completely? I liked his character

Nisio for dummies.

>it's the "rrg goes to meme who helps him solve the problem" episode
why's bake considered the best again?

>>144303715
Nise was well adapted, but had poorer source material.
SS was just a mess of an adaptation overall.
Owari's pretty alright.

>>144363064
How did Bake have a three-act structure?

SHAFT won a fuckton of money and Shinbo lost the charm of most of his works, that being working under strict budget and being inventive with it

>>144372242
>shaft
>money
>modern shaft
>shinbo directing

I like Bake but it got better once characters were established and moved to other seasons. It was pretty boring as is.

I feel like the only thing as striking about 00s Shaft in its state is the openings, leading to overcomposed tedium in every other way.

I hope Kizumonogatari changes my mind about the studio's future, though.

>>144303715
The show got better, then, worse, then better, and has been inconsistent but pretty good ever since?

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Prove me wrong

>God Tier
Koyomi Vamp, Tsubasa Cat, Tsubasa Tiger, Hitagi End, Sodachi Lost

>High Tier
Hitagi Crab, Suruga Monkey, Karen Bee, Nadeko Medusa, Sodachi Riddle

>Good Tier
Mayoi Snail, Nadeko Snake, Tsukihi Phoenix, Shinobu Mail

>Okay Tier
Tsubasa Family, Suruga Devil, Yotsugi Doll, Ougi Formula

>Mediocre Tier
Mayoi Jiangshi, Shinobu Time

>>144375493
I'd bump ougi formula to good, drop nadeko snake to okay and drop Karen Bee to good.

And I'd join okay and mediocre tier, Mayoi Jiangshi and Shinobu Time had some pretty good scenes to be considered just mediocre.

>>144372139
A three act structure follows one story, one plot thread and one set of themes, through a period of exposition, rising action and character development, climax, and occasionally a denouement. Let's see how this applies to Bake.

Act 1: Crab and Snail.

We're introduced to the protagonist as a selfless young man. He helps people out, gets a girlfriend. His personality is established as someone self-sacrificial and self-reliant.

Act 2: Monkey

The protagonist finds himself in a sticky love triangle situation which he can't resolve easily, and feels partially responsible for. Unwilling to ask others for help (Meme really only helps explain the situation, notice how he rarely interferes himself), our hero finds himself outmatched and resigned to die in order to fix the problem when the girlfriend shows up. She tells him that not only is it insulting rather than noble to not ask for help, but that self-sacrifice is actually selfish since he doesn't think of the people left behind.

Act 3: Cat

Opens with the date episode, solidifying the themes of act 2. Once again, the protagonist is caught in a love triangle that he feels responsible for, and in classic dramatic fashion, the mentor leaves. However, using the knowledge from part two, when confronted he stands his ground, refuses to fuck a cat, and relies on his friend's help to resolve the conflict. The series ends with a monologue about respecting yourself and the importance of friends.

In essence, the series is a story about learning to give a shit about yourself and learning to rely on others. It has a clear, linear structure with a beginning, middle, and end, where the tension rises and then falls and the main character's development mirrors this. The girl arcs are just a way to jam in fanservice, Bake is clearly Araragi's story alone.

The only part that doesn't fit smoothly into the narrative is Snake, but she was worst girl so who cares.