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Why the fuck dont sword users in animu land never use shields?

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I have noticed that many anime characters rarely use shields even when they have the superhuman strength to make the shield's weight a complete nonfactor.
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samurai didn't use shields
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>>141830169
Yh so what? A shield is a very good thing to have since it prevents your enemy from spamming swords attacks at you.

Block the blow with the shield, then angle it to shift the blade out of the way then stab the foe in their neck.
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>>141830241
>not just spamming caestus parry
git gud
>>
Why do they always push their swords against each other instead of grabbing the other person or parrying? Why do they always throw out telegraphed big single hits that somehow land because the plot demands they win? Why are anime fights outside of really high budget productions with varied choreography so shit in general?

Anime makes no fucking sense. If you can't deal with it then you're better off not watching it.
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>>141830169
Didn't most samurai fight with spears and bows anyways
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>>141830363
But anon shields are better for strategic fighting and there are so many anime characters that would still be alive if they had fucking shields on them.
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>>141830600
Strategic fighting is barely ever a thing in anime. It's always about who punches the hardest, screams the loudest, shits out the most special techniques or has the highest stakes riding on the outcome of the battle.
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>>141830241
the katana was never the preferred weapon of samurai. it was at best a side arm. bow/arrows, spears or even later guns were all used more on the battlefield than the katana.
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>hurr durr why don't anime follow MY expactations
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>>141830724
This coming from someone who barely ever watches battle shounen, I might add.
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>>141830745
And yet Japan hates guns nowadays.
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>>141830808
Japan just has a hate boner for nobunaga
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>>141830808
There are a lot of gun otaku in Japan actually. Probably because there's such a harsh ban on firearms in the country. But guns aren't considered to be "heroic" in the eyes of the masses.
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>>141830724
But shields cant block those special attacks anon.
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>>141830600
Isn't dual wielding better than shields though? You can block too, but you can also stab them with the second hand.
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>>141831330
Why stop at dual wielding? If I've learned anything from anime, it would be that more swords = better
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>>141831330
You need superhuman flexibility to make dual wielding casual anon. Also blocking a club with a sword blade is retarded.
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>>141831330
Dual wielding also limits how you can attack since the blades themselves can get in the way also they can make for wonky balance especially with heavier weapons like swords.
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>>141831330
dual wielding for mere mortals (not the musashis of the world) only works if the other weapon is a short sword
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This thread made me realize that World Trigger and Shieldbro are the only manga I know of that has prominent shield users. This discrimination against shield users has to stop.
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>>141831330
Most of the time you have a longer sword for attacking, and a shorter sword for parrying. Attacking and defending with two swords at the same time is incredibly difficult.
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It not only animu thing. In western media shields are also not loved. Just look af GoT, in books every character use shield, in show i don't think they even know concept of shield.
Shame, shields are sexy as fuck
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>"why no sword n shield?"
>not dual shielding
are you a pleb or what?
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>>141830114
Short answer is because swords are cool and using shields ruins all the silly duel scenes. This goes way back not only in hollywood, but in theatre. It's probably thousands of years old at this point.
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>>141830114
>tfw folks like Victor Panzer will never have their own show
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>>141832869
Does he actually lift it, or just rolls it?
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>>141833188
>Victor looks at puny you
>"Do you even lift bro?"
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>>141830114
Because shields are useless. Learn how to dodge and roll.
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>>141830114
Forget the shields. Where are the big fucking hammers at?
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>>141832869
>Victor Panzer
>"c" instead of "k" with a German surname
Dropped.

Looks very mighty, though. Respect the SHIELD!
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>>141831225
But a special shield can. Do you even anime logic?
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>>141830114
Because most anime characters are hyper offensive and have super-strength, not super endurance (or at least not the same degree of super endurance).
They project more power than they can take with their bodies, which is why they prefer to parry with an attack rather than block.
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>>141834531
And D-Gray Man next season.
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>>141831330
Dual wielding isn't really practical if you're not Musashi.
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>>141834110
Shields make dodging unnecessary since they can tank hits for you.
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>>141835723
Dodging makes shields unnecessary since it allows you to dodge the attacks and give you more ground to attack back instead of standing around like a turtle.
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>>141835723
No. They are meant to deflect strikes so the opponent loses balance.
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>>141830114
muh black swordman with twin sword
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>>141835883
Shields allow you to keep your stance and position without exposing your vitals and leaving you in a worse spot.
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>>141830114
While it is just a fantasy show here's an attempt at an explanation.

Once armor become strong enough to deflect most attacks (escpially arrows) shields fell out of use. A person with good enough armor will simply not die no matter how many random hit you throw at them. The only way to kill the person is to land one extremely accurate shot into the places that are not well protected like the eye-slit. The ability to grapple from having a free hand is what will help you do this. So for a high armor person the best weapon is a two handed one, you can switch between two-handing it for parrying (more hands=more powerful guards) and one handing it when you can grapple the enemy.

Without strong armor if you have no shield it doesn't matter if you are the best swordsman in the world. You will die to the first volly of arrows.

Also no one really duel-wielded. weapon+shield is going to give you better defense and 2hand weapon will be able to put more force behind their attack making it so your 1-handed parry will fail. Duel-wield would also give you worst offense since what really matters is how much force you can have in one blow (two hands is twice the force), without enough force the armor will make your hit do zero damage.

Than again the loli isn't wear a helmet so she clearly doesn't care about not dying.
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>>141835642
>next season.
>mfw my hasubando is coming back
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>>141830114
If there are people that can split a fucking wall in two with a single strike, and those people are not really common but common enough to find one of those sooner than later, your shield is gonna do jack shit to protect you.

Also, japanese media is influenced by its history, as happens with the media of any other country, and as this anon said >>141830169
japanese people never used them.

Also, the setting probably has magic users spamming fucking fireballs left and right, so, again, your shield is not gonna do shit to protect you.
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>>141830745
You underestimate how much they love their katanas, they were until they japan saw regularly conflicts and needed to use more practical tactics. They switched to spears and bows and eventually firearms. Before that only female samurai used spears and other polearms.
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too much stamina drain + poise is still turned off
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>>141837627
Katana were a status symbol, not actually a particularly viable weapon in battle.
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>>141830114
The only shield user on the whole server
because he fucking cheated
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>>141835702
I love how despite being every swordman's wet dream the guy didn't workship swords unlike pretty much 90% of the writers
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>>141836180

Different anon.

Shields became less common as we moved into the shot and pike era. Swordplay became more about dueling and it wouldn't be practical to carry a shield with you leading to two handed dueling styles with sword and main gauche. Later dual wielding was abandoned as styles changed and the parry and riposte replaced blocking, the body was turned sideways to reduce the body profile, and the use of the lunge.
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>>141837627

Originally Samurai were horseback archers with armies of long spearmen.
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>>141831902
Even in WT nobody wants to use that shield because it's too heavy to lug around.

The only other Raygust users besides pic related are a super buff guy (who rarely even uses it for the shield) and the four eyed scrub MC who can't dodge unless his life depended on it.
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Shields are for pussies

Real men spin
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>>141837704
then why were europeans so fond of their rapiers and shit

were they even bigger nerds than the nips?
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>>141838743
I dunno about other europeans but I like plain and practical weapons above anything else.
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>>141838398
Superior Ultra Greatsword coming through
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Fuck shields, use a goddamn helmet.
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>>141830114
Why don't they never use shield?

orz
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>>141831902
I'm reading through Shieldbro right now and it's pretty fucked up. I got to the part where he fights his cursed dragon. The dragon absorbs his hatred for the world to grow stronger and Shieldbro finally finds happiness and love for his party when he defeats it. Then all his party members toss his ass into the dragon's corpse to transfer his negative character traits back into him because they don't like the way he acts with his new lease on life, and this entire segment is played for laughs. That's some abstract form of suffering right there.

And then later on everyone can easily break through his defenses like nothing. What's even the point of having heroes if a slave can be raised in a few months to be stronger than they ever could be?
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>>141837259
>japanese people never used them.
A myth.
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>>141839144
The only reason the slaves are able to get that strong is due to the Hero weapons boosting both their stat gains and growth speed. If normal people just train and grind exp they don't get nearly as strong with those boosts.
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>>141838845
Ahem
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>>141839333
>not even 1000+ damage
Are you even trying?

Actually managed to do 2k against Soul of Cinder with a single hit in some magical bullshit way.
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>>141830114
Because shields is for pussies. Shields ain't actually for pussies.
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>>141839392
I'm only at SL70 on that playthrough, I assume you're higher.
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>>141839553
SL 90, 33 STR/26 DEX/30 Faith

+10 Refined with Lightning Blade.
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>>141839144
>>141839288
He's talking about the concept of chi or something to that effect that ignores defense/stats and can strengthen skills/magic. Shield bro learns how to use it to figure out how to counter shit like that. The old granny was a master at it and taught the slaves and mostly ratalia and that other girl that bow hero abandoned.
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>>141839264

Notice the 400BC to 300 AD? You're talking about a very early period in Japanese history. Rome is still around.
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>>141838743

Rapiers and other small blades were dueling weapons and part of popular dress until they were eventually supplanted by canes.
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>>141839144
Also, naive/nice shieldbro is a bitch. Read "Start Over of The Spear Hero" where shield bitch dies over and over because he never got edgy and trusted everyone.
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>>141830114
>sword + armor + shield

She's on the right track, now just needs a helmet and more muscle.
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>>141839876
This is the Yayoi era, and the weapons in the picture roughly corresponds with the Migration period in Europe. They kept using shields way into the period that corresponds with the European middle ages.

What few people realise is that shields weren't all that common in Europe either past a certain point. At least not general purpose infantry shields, like you see in the early middle ages. During the high middle ages, shields already became more marginalised, since the armour became protective enough to do a lot of the defensive work. During the late middle ages, shields were only present in very specialised roles, from horseman's targes to deflect lances, to large stationary used paveses of crossbowmen, to light bucklers that could be worn by the side by infantry.

Shields are mostly characteristic of the early middle ages, when infantry was not as organised and armour wasn't protective enough. As soon as infantry became more organised and professional, not having to rely on single combat skills any more but on discipline and long pole-arms, shields just got in the way.
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>>141839929
well japanese battles consisted of yelling the name of a guy on the other side and dueling 1v1 until the mongols invaded
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>>141840285
I might add: the archaetypical Samurai people envision is essentially an Early Modern warrior. By the 15th century, shields weren't a common sight on European battlefields either.

The heavily armoured knight wearing plate armour, wielding a high medieval kite shield, like the typical Dark Souls character is essentially an anachronism, since shields like that simply weren't used any more. If anything the knight would be wearing a targe, but these were typically horseman's shields. On foot he'd likely rely on two-handed weaponry.
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>>141840538
>By the 15th century
By that I meant: 16th century.
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>>141840285

High Middle ages is the 15th century or so a very far cry from the Yayoi Period.

As far as I've read of shields in Japanese history were not so much handheld shields as movable barricades. I don't have detailed knowledge of all of Japanese history but I don't recall reading of or seeing images of widespread shield usage at Sekigahara or during the Sengoku Jidai and that covers pretty much all of the European Middle Ages.
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>>141831330
No. You can attack the same amount of times with only one weapon AND have a shield to save your ass when you need to block.
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>>141841237
>High Middle ages is the 15th century
The High Middle Ages would be the 10th - 13th century. 15th century would be the late middle ages, while the 16th century is commonly where the early modern period begins.

>As far as I've read of shields in Japanese history were not so much handheld shields as movable barricades.
During the Japanese iron age, they used shields quite similarly to how Europe did. Even their swords resembled European ones of the corresponding time period.
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>>141838282
source on that one apparently horseback archery came later.
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>>141836180
>The only way to kill the person is to land one extremely accurate shot into the places that are not well protected like the eye-slit.
Why not use something like a dagger then?
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>>141841463
Because the other guy has a sword/spear/whatever that gives him a longer range? And a mace works just fine against armor
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>>141841418
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>>141841419

A quick Google for a source, The Heian period is when the Samurai were established as a warrior class. The sidebar "Walk the Walk" specifically discusses archery.

http://www.historyoffighting.com/samurai-warriors-of-the-heian-period.php
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>>141841628

The Kofun period is still early Japanese history, Yayoi>Kofun>Heian
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>>141830501
No they fought with peasants.
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>>141841832
It is. The question is what you're trying to say here.

Someone said that the Japanese people didn't use shields - which is factually wrong, because they did use regular infantry shields well into the 8th - 9th century or so - which corresponds with the European middle ages. This is quite a long period of time.

After that, their style of warfare changed, with the traditional infantry shield losing its place.

What should be noted however is that in Europe something similar happened. The golden age of shields were the early middle ages. After that, shields lost their importance and became more marginalised and most of all more specialised on the battlefields - being only employed in certain specific roles rather than being an item carried by pretty much every warrior on the field.
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>>141836561
Funny thing, your husbando only shows up briefly as a wormslut if they follow the manga faithfully, so you don't get any hammer action either
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>>141841463
They did use daggers for exactly that anon. If I remember correctly the medieval daggers in question were called rondels, there may have been others types. They were a sidearm that you pulled out when a fight went to ground, since grappling makes larger weapons, especially two-handers real awkward. Rondels needed to be a lot sturdier than most daggers, and were more like a reinforced spike, because their primary use was for jamming through the joints and gaps in armor, and in a grapple where the other guy is trying to shank you with his own dagger, you have to expect to stab straight into platemail more often than you stab into person.

So yeah, daggers were used in plate, against plate. Why don't they get talked about much? They were a last resort. Its a hell of a lot safer to fight with a polearm from a formation than from a writhing stabby ball of arms and mud. If you had to use the rondel, it meant the lines were broken and discipline was shaken, so the only one keeping you alive is you, and you best shank a shiny plated bitch.
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>>141830114
why use shields when katana folded 9000 times over, rekts it
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>>141830114
shields didnt exist in feudal japan. its why they never used a shield wall and fighting for a extended period of time in japan was 1 on 1 in war

its not until they bought some match lock rifles from a dutch trading vessel and reverse engineering them that that changes some but it was supplemental they didnt go full gun many still fought 1 on 1 . then later buying a bunch of guns from the americans but that was after extended peace thanks to the unification of japan
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>>141830114
>huurrr I played Dark Souls with my shitty shield because can't git gud, why can't animu follow suit
Please get castrated you manbaby
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>>141842839
Because shields have more mass then katanas. This means that when you fold a shield 9000 times, it becomes super dense, and glows with an eery yet comforting patriotism. Fold it one more time, and the shield reaches critical mass, seeks out the nearest Japanese city, and cleanses it of ignorance in nuclear fire.

The mushroom cloud is made of souls burdened by the blight of the katana finally being freed from their burden and reaching Nirvana.
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>>141842839

A Principate Legion would wreck any Sengoku Samurai Army any day.
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>>141831330
but what if... you duel wielded shields...
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>>141843844
>slow moving legions against mobile horse archers
Wasn't that one of the reasons why the empire fell?
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>>141830347
lmao, mah nigga
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>>141843054
>shields didnt exist in feudal japan.
You what m8? Even the freaking Zulus had shields for god sake.
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>>141830921
Being a gun otaku is culturally fine and has been for a while. But to own a gun you have to take a full safety course, fill out a mountain of paperwork, and even then you have to keep it in a locker with only a few exceptions.
I don't have a strong opinion towards it. The law is the law but the cultural attitude towards guns isn't really "hate". Most Japanese just don't have any real "pride" towards owning weapons if that makes sense. The attitude is the same towards swords mind you.
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>>141830114
That will probably change when Rise of the Shield Hero finally gets an anime adaption.
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>>141831330
I don't have that nigga knight image on hand right now, but, yes shank two niggas at once.
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>>141831330
Depends,in some scenarios it is.

Average anon might say its unrealistic but theyre wrong. Parrying daggers were common and pretty effective for what they did.

of course you didnt see them in a battlefield because shield has plethora of uses like blocking projectiles. This is why parrying dagger is less known.

Theyre essentially tools for different situations doing the same job
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>>141844432
When in doubt, Testudo it out.

The Empire fell for lots of reasons, mostly due to failures of leadership and government than actual losses on the battlefield. Though those did happen, often as a result of the failures of the first.
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>>141844913
Also, I'll add that the heavily armored Legionnaires made up a relatively small portion of the Roman army. Most of their troops would have been light infantry, support and auxiliary forces to complement the Legionnaires and fill niches needed for the specific campaign.
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>>141844432

Comparing Samurai to Parthian/Sassanid horse archers is like comparing Cub Scouts to Navy SEALS.

The Horses don't have the same speed and endurance, the bows aren't even in the same league, and the amount of actual horse archers that Japan could field was tiny.
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>>141844718
>That will probably change when Rise of the Shield Hero finally gets an anime adaption.
>Why the fuck dont sword users in animu land never use shields?
>sword users

Shield bro never used a sword. He literally can't because shield won't let him.
>>
>>141844870
While dual-wielding did exist, it wasn't nearly as practical a technique as Hollywood and animu would have you believe.
Also, medieval steel was pretty dogshit and banging sword-on-sword is just a gamble whether yours or your opponent's sword will break first.
Which is why swords mostly served as side-arms to a longer range weapon like a halberd, bill, spear or bow.
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>>141844987

Legionaries (Legionnaires is a french word) made up about half of a Principate Legion, most definitely not a "small portion". Heavy Infantry made up the bulk of the Roman army, while light infantry and cavalry filled out the supporting roles as needed.
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>>141831330
Dual wielding is the biggest fucking meme. It only works with the rule of cool, while its impractical, leaves you with tons of openings, due to the force you use your body moves too. this also leads to that you'll not be able to use the other weapon with full force, thus it only works if you have suicidal thoughts. A shield not only can save your life, but use it as a weapon too.

There are other shields than a big ass ones what covers your whole body, bucklers are thing you know.
Also you guys should watch this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tFOJFyTl1U
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>>141845131
There is historical precedent for dual wielding from the later medeival period.
Here's a discussion on that from a guy who has been practicing medieval combat since before Skallagrim was born.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drd8dQKr-oY
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>>141845236

Historical dual wielding is a different weapon for main hand and off hand, the off hand weapon is smaller and mainly used for parrying with an occasional opportunistic strike.

Duel wielding in media is swing two swords the exact same way, which is a highway to getting yourself killed.
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>>141830114
>I have noticed that many anime characters rarely use shields
Historically by the time people had plate armor almost no one used shields for hand to hand combat.
As far as I know a shield and sword manual doesn't exist, there are small portions of texts about fighting with both in the few surviving manuals but there's just as much text about fighting with all sorts of strange shit in them you wouldn't even think exists.

Knights with shields and swords are literally a meme from 18th century illustrated children's books.

Source: I practice HEMA.
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>>141845476
Didn't only a portion of armies have people with full plate, considering it was so expensive? Wouldn't the people in lesser armor, like strictly being in chainmail, resort to using shields as well?
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>>141845476
>As far as I know a shield and sword manual doesn't exist
It depends on what you mean by 'shield'.

Sword and buckler manuals certainly exist. In fact, the earliest surviving manual is a German source from the early 14th century, possibly a bit earlier, on sword and buckler fencing.
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>>141845706
They had large two person shields to hide from arrows and other projectiles.
They didn't use viking era sized shields because they were useless in the "catfight" and they were useless against crossbows and catapult shot ammunition.

>>141845803
Some anime girls gauntlets are bigger than a buckler. It's obvious OP was asking about Viking Era to 12th century large pieces of thin wood shields that look cool as fuark but are pretty useless against the advanced weapons of a Renaissance inspired fantasy.
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>>141845476
Full plate armored guys with big ass two handed swords very rarely, more like never happened in battle. These were mostly duels and for showcase for the rich and nobles, many times never even used in actual battle it was more of a symbol than a weapon to show you could afford that shit. The actual swords used in battle were mostly one handed.
What you mean those books etc were the timesink for the nobles, thats why those remained.

Also it was the regular people who were fighting the real battles and couldn't afford shit. Their best bet was leather armor, sometimes chainmal, padded armor, the partial plate was a thing too.
The most used weapons were spears, or maces due to their cheap mass production, and they were easier to use than a sword.
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>>141839809
People who use chi are actively suppressed by the enemy.
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>>141830114
>Why isn't anime characters like my dark souls character
Go back to talking about your shit games on /vg/.
>>
>>141845893
>Full plate armored guys with big ass two handed swords very rarely

Excuse me. But those were the MAIN people fighting on a battle field. The people without armor RAN once they saw the hand to hand combatants.

That's how they fought. You shoot your arrows. You shoot your catapults. And if the actual army reaches you, you fucking rout.

There were no big choreographed hand to hand battles.
>>
>>141830114
Shields aren't showy. They're most useful in co-ordinated formations, and that doesn't allow the characters to look like badass individuals. They're still way more practical in combat, but, you know, anime.
>>
>>141830114
>Sacrificing speed at the cost of defense
>not being HSTD
>being Tank
>>
>>141843844
The funny thing is the early roman Legions and JP military in Pre Sengoke era share part of their strategies.

Legions were strong because they were CQC experts. Against Phalanx, they simply closed in and chopped enemies. Their principle was simple and the same as Spartans, be twice as strong as the enemy and fight at the range where that matters.Samurai were professional warriors and operated on the same principle and they had high mobility.

Against Testudo, kick, tuckle and chop. Against spiked shield, simply run and come back with long spears and smite them down.
Against archers, pick early morning or night to do battle.

In the end, only the hardest to deal with strategies remained. Cavalry archer's hit and run. Night combat. Legion style CQC. If the enemy dishes out something unexpected, you run and come back with a counter.
In games, shields are useful, but if you practice a bit with those, you would realize large shields block your vision severely and actually leaves you quite vulnerable around your legs, that's why they went out of fashion in any civilization. Heavy armors too were not that popular either, simply because if you can't catch your enemies, your are no good and die of exhaustion eventually.
>>
>>141845893
>The actual swords used in battle were mostly one handed.
Judging by findings and depictions, longswords were fairly common as side-arms - and these were primarily two-handed weapons - although they could still be wielded in one hand.

Two-handed swords as in swords that are too long to be wielded effectively in one hand on the other hand were indeed not as common, but they did definitely exist, although mostly serving special roles rather than being general issue weapons.

>What you mean those books etc were the timesink for the nobles, thats why those remained.
Not exactly. These books were mostly advertisement for fencing masters who sought employment at princely courts. Occasionally, they were also made for select rich students of theirs.

>regular people who were fighting the real battles and couldn't afford shit.
Not true at all. By the late middle ages most people fighting were properly equipped professionals. They might not have worn the most expensive suits of plate armour, but they had proper arms and armour to do their job right.

>The most used weapons were spears, or maces due to their cheap mass production, and they were easier to use than a sword.
Swords were probably the most common side-arm and one of the most commonly found weapon on historical battlefields. Sword wounds are fairly common on remains too. Keep in mind that if you wield a long pole-arm you can easily carry a sword by your side in case someone gets past the long point.
>>
>>141845957
You seem to know your stuff. Can you tell me anything about that middle age close combat in armours? I think it was called Raufkunst in Austria.

I also remember Tenjho Tenge telling something about armoured Samurai grappling when their weapons were broken, but that was probably Oh Great! spewing made up (cool) crap.
>>
>>141846197
>I think it was called Raufkunst in Austria.
That was the unarmed combat in armor right?
It's not limited to the Middle Ages it continued well into the Renaissance and I'd say it was even reinvigorated by depictions of Classical Greek grappling in that period.

It's basically wrestling. There are many depictions of it still surviving.
>>
>>141846197
>You seem to know your stuff. Can you tell me anything about that middle age close combat in armours? I think it was called Raufkunst in Austria.
>I also remember Tenjho Tenge telling something about armoured Samurai grappling when their weapons were broken, but that was probably Oh Great! spewing made up (cool) crap.

Actually, Jujustu, Judo's ancestor, was developed for that purpose.
When you charge in to break enemy lines, you inevitably end up hugging your enemy where daggers nor swords do not quite work well. Ideally you stump onto your enemy or let comrades behind you finish him, but if your friends charged above you and left you with your enemy on the ground, struggling him to death or holding him to let friendlies finish him becomes the fastest option.
>>
>>141830363
Have you watched Grimgar? It had pretty damn solid choreography, even a group vs group fight where people didn't take turns RPG-style.
>>
Because they don't want to fatroll
>>
何故外人様がそんなことについて議論するのか…格好いいだけでは駄目なのか?
>>
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>>141831902
I'll take every chance I get to remind people Tower of Druaga is a thing and it's good.
>>
>>141839983
>Read "Start Over of The Spear Hero"
I wish I could.
>>
>>141846197
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/CodexW.htm
Here I think this would give you a good idea.
There are some more recent (on the historical scale heh) surviving Italian treaties that show better depiction as far as art goes. But this is good enough to give you an idea.

There are some other german treaties on wrestling but I don't think those are available publicly right now.
>>
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>>141846481
1st season was so damn fun. I feel like rewatching it right now.

>tfw Gonzo CAN deliver
>>
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>>141846197
Not the guy you're talking to but

>Can you tell me anything about that middle age close combat in armours?
We have detailed depictions and descriptions of late medieval armoured combat from the remaining treatises, which mostly deal with the judicial duel as it was common in Southern Germany. In armoured combat, it was important to aim for the gaps in the armour since late medieval armour was very hard to penetrate. In order to do that, they grabbed their swords with one hand by the blade and used them like short spears in order to accurately guide them into gaps of their opponent's armour - which is commonly called 'half-swording'. In depictions from battlefields, e.g. the Battle of Barnet, we can see similar tactics, with knights using their arming swords to thrust at the enemy's faces rather than attempting to cut through their armours. Illuminations on Froissart's chronicle from the 15th century also shows the King of France engaging in a half-sword stance during the Battle of Poitiers. Often enough, armoured fighting would however be decided by wrestling the opponent to the ground and stabbing him to death with a dagger.

>I also remember Tenjho Tenge telling something about armoured Samurai grappling when their weapons were broken
This wasn't just a matter of 'when their weapons were broken'. Wrestling was fully integrated into their swordsmanship, quite akin to how it worked in Europe. Often wrestling was engaged from binding with the opponent's weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfg97ujagf8
>>
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>>141846707
>>
>>141846066

If you were just a regular person you were poor, dirt fucking poor, and not very bring because you coudln't afford even a regular school, not sword lessons. There is a reason it was called dark ages.

However you are rigth about that as time gone later people who actually know their shit entered the battlefield, even mercenaries became more common too. This was their job, thus they could afford actual weapons, because war demanded more people who actually can fight. However peasants were still present, its just they were "reduced" to defenders of the heavy infantry, archers were common among them.
>>
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>>141846743
>>
>>141846811
>>141846743
>>141846707
>>141846534
>>141846389
Neat, thanks.
>>
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>>141846197
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Goliath/Goliath.htm

And this one is all wrestling. But from a much later period. This is already heading for late Renaissance and the era of the gun so, it's becoming ever more centered on dueling.

I tried to find an early reinaisance one that would have been much more oriented on war application

>>141846801
>There is a reason it was called dark ages.
The Renaissance isn't the Dark Ages.
There were indeed peasants with shields ruining around the battlefield getting stomped by horses. But that was a good 300-500 years earlier. Long before the canon and the catapult became a mainstay on the battlefield. Long before plate armor.
You're simply thinking of a different era.

It's not an uncommon mistake Hollywood movies mix and match both.
>>
>>141830114
Why don't you?
>>
>>141846197
>I also remember Tenjho Tenge telling something about armoured Samurai grappling when their weapons were broken

Go look up Yagyu Shingan Ryu on youtube. They showed armoured fighting with a few different weapons. Overall grappling may happen against an armoured opponent even if your weapons aren't broken, because armour doesn't protect against having your limbs dislocated, and reliably hitting the openings in armour is a lot easier if you're really close, at which point it becomes more or less grappling anyway, even if you still hold a weapon in your hands. And that's regardless of whether you're in European or Japanese armour.
>>
>>141846801
>If you were just a regular person you were poor, dirt fucking poor, and not very bring because you coudln't afford even a regular school, not sword lessons. There is a reason it was called dark ages.
We're talking about the 14th - 15th century here, which was well after what is often falsely called the 'dark ages'. Fighting schools provided people with certificates which allowed them to demand more payment. Mercenaries were professionals, not just some random peasants - they were usually properly equipped. What kind of prince would hire people who were ill equipped? Only in dire need, untrained peasants were drafted for service - far from the normal case.
>>
>>141847071
>Only in dire need, untrained peasants were drafted for service - far from the normal case.

That still didn't mean they were untrained.
All English men were trained in archery from early age, all Germans learned messer fighting from the craddle and Italians and the Swiss were pretty much all soldiers.

This is not the pussified Europe of today we're talking about here.
>>
>>141830114

because muh honorable battru
>>
I came into this thread thinking it would need a dose of historical information, but I am glad to see all the points I wanted to get across have already been made, and have learned a few things in the process.
>>
>>141846743
>that pic
Sire Tanaka be always guilty of sloth.
>>
>>141847449
That's the "carry your brother to his home after he gets fucked up in the local whenchhouse" maneuver. It was very well used. Especially in France.
>>
>>141846743
How heavy are those armors?
>>
>>141830114
I don't know, but this shit has spread to vidyaland. Adol Christin used a shield since the first Ys game back in 87.

This is him now, shieldless, his armor gone and replaced by a fucking hoodie and no longer voiced by Takeshi Kusao, no. Now he's voiced by Yuuki Kaji because Falcom wants to appeal to a younger, modern audience.

They raped my vidya hero and took his shield away, I am beyond mad. My only solace is that Falcom still has enough sense to not turn him into a dual wielding faggot.
>>
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>>141848753
>>
>>141848828
>belts
Why?
>>
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>>141848750
Field armour weighed roughly between 20 - 30kg, depending on its size.
>>
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>>141844750
>>
>>141848939
I think there's actually a reasonable explanation for belts on the base of a limb: it's to cut blood flow to one if there's a particularly great wound.
>>
>scrawny no-muscled teenager parries a huge blow from a much bigger foe
>shit japanese pig iron doesn't break apart at the impact site into splinters


Wooooow
>>
>>141830501
Bow and horse, don't tell the
>Muh honorabu katana fightan
Weebs though
>>
>>141830600
there are so many anime characters that would still be alive if they had fucking shields on them.
>when your enemy can beam spam
>>
>>141830114
Fug being tank I'm can dodge the attack and my plot armor protect me
>>
>>141849597
I know you're joking, but swords (and metal items in general) never break into splinters. They either bend until ductile fracture appears, or snap cleanly.
It really annoys me when metal in anime breaks like it's wood or stone.
>>
>>141830600
Unless you're in a setting that at least tries to be realistic shields won't do shit for you because you're dealing with stuff that would have no problems punching through concrete so your best option is to fucking dodge before the freight train hits you into the next century.
>>
>>141844432
Japan wouldn't have been able to field horse archers comparable to those of the Huns and Tartars.
>>
Tate no yuusha a whole LN/WN/Manga about a shield hero
>>
>>141849288
>>20-30kg
Even when they are evenly distributed that sounds like a lot of weight to carry for intense physical activity for your average person
>>
>>141841753
I know it's late but your source says they picked up bows 300 hundred years after they were established.
>>
Probably the major reason you don't see many shields in anime, is that they are awkward from a character design perspective. You can pretty much make a sword fade into the background when focusing on character movement and interaction, but a shield is more difficult to manage.
>>
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>>141840220
>Helmet and pauldrons
>No plate armor covering its torso

Anime Death Knights are lewd
>>
>>141830114
You see every hit in anime fights is crucial. Shields are useless since they hit so hard the shield would be broken if it got hit by the enemy. So why block their attack with a shield when you can just dodge them?
>>
>>141850561
The US military suggests that the optimal combat load is 30% of your body weight, so this sort of armour doesn't really exceed this much even by modern standards. And it should be considered that a knight wearing this sort of armour wouldn't nearly have to march and crawl around as much but he'd likely fight as heavy cavalry or heavy infantry in formation.
>>
>>141850561

the people that put this kind of armor on weren't your average person. they were thoroughly trained soldiers through and through. most of them trained their whole lives for combat.
>>
>>141830114
First of all, it's "don't ever" or "do never" not don't never.

Secondly, while there were shields in Japan, during an era which name I forgot, the government made the philosophy of attacking first and foremost trendy. It also really made the katana popular, and no shield whatsoever. So of course artists are going to draw from that popular hotbed of knowledge and disregard the shield. Also most people don't know or care about knowing how to use a shield. When some characters do use shields, they don't behave as such. Also it makes people think that shields don't move well by animation standards, it's for the same reason you rarely see thrusts. Slashes just "look" better.

Also, can someone send him the Maria the Virgin Witch webm? Some nice buckler action there.
>>
>>141830114
All go full dex/agi why need block when your evasion too high, just go full Dips
>>
>>141830241
just spin 360 degrees and strike the collar bone with your pommel while you're at it
>>
>>141846393
It's in my backlog. I wanted to wait until I was finished so I wouldn't have to deal with waiting for non-Funi shit every week.
>>
>>141830114
But they do you giggafaggot
>>
>>141830114
Full plate armor already good enough for protection, and not having a shield gives you a free hand for grappling and better control when using a 2-handed weapon, such as them OP death sickles and giant hammers.
>>
>>141855599
A buckler is almost always helpful though, and doesn't really get in the way of swinging a two handed weapon.
>>
>>141845106
Swords where really bad quality back in the day.
There where certain swords and polearms that had specialized hooks used to catch swords and snap them in half if enough pressure was applied.
>>
>>141837259
>If there are people that can split a fucking wall in two with a single strike
Then you wield a multi layered shield of like 20-30 layers of thin sheat metal. Latticed together for flex.
Nevermind walls are easy to break, because bricks are not very solid.
>>
>>141848939
To make the outfight sit better.
To be able to choke a limn if need arises.

>>141855599
Somebody post the webm of Mariah the Witch, that shows how Bucklers was used.
You can just have it when wielding another weapon, since you grip it by holding it.
>>
>>141856891
Still useless. Just dodge it. In superheroic fantasy world, your normal shield is worthless, and if you have a magical supershield that actually can stop magical superslashes that can cleave mountains, might as well just turn it into armor, or better yet, a magical forcefield emanated from a small jewel.
>>
>>141856995
I'd say the biggest problem is that anime thinks it has to make things grand and include special powers or shit to make things interesting.

To me, a show about regular footsoldiers in a world with no magic or special powers would be far more exciting and interesting.

Or hell even if they want special powers and shit, make the MC not the "hero". Make him just a regular footsoldier fighting a regular war and every now and then the big "heroes" of each side clash and cause devastating losses to both sides. Have him be bitter and angry at his own side's "hero" because his reckless fighting killed the MC's comrades or something. Explore the consequences of having superpowered people fighting alongside regular footsoldiers. How they get no recognition or praise despite doing the dirty work. How everyone at home is praising the hero while he sits there mourning his fallen comrades.
>>
>>141830501
matchlocks, spears, pole weapons , bows.

It was after the war people got fetish for the sword and the samurai class started worship it after all only they could carry it.
>>
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>>141830114

If you can hold a shield, why not just dual wield
>>
>>141859802
Because you'll get stabbed in the back of the neck
>>
>>141859611
IIRC it was more of a "let's romancize Samurais, the sword, the concept of the best defence is offence, etc..." Tokugawan ploy, it's not like people got a hard-on for that by themselves. Culture was created to promote that idea.

But yes, you're right.
>>
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>>141830114
Because when you have a fuckhueg sword you can use it as a shield and cut niggers in half
>>
>>141859802
Technically using shields, and bucklers in particular IS dual-wielding. Your off-hand moves with the sword hand, you bash, guard your allies, maybe even grapple in the case of the buckler.

Swords are inferior while dual wielding because you can't block arrows with it, but in a city and not in a battlefield if you don't have a buckler on your belt, drawing your dagger to complement your sword is perfectly acceptable and historically accurate.
>>
>>141857435
Read the black company.
>>
>>141830114
>Being a bitch and using a shield.
I bet you're one of those fags in DS PvP who hide behind shields all day. Grow a pair.
>>
>>141856451
>Swords where really bad quality back in the day.

Actually depends from where and how old the sword is. An old sword breaking could happen just from hard battle or poor maintenance of the sword.

But using hooks to snap swords is quite silly thing to do. Better to try to disarm him or open his guard.
>>
>>141854243
No everyone gets AC from dex/agi, depends on class.
>>
>>141859983
There many duel-welding setups for civilians.

fucking literally anything that could be useful during a fight + sword.
>>
>>141859802
WHERS MY FOOKIN SISTAH
>>
>>141860300
Yeah, I'm even actually surprised we don't have a surviving manual about sword+bucket.
>>
>>141830114

shields are pussy mode, real man clear dark souls with no shield
>>
>>141860497
We do have cloak+ dagger. Because cloak was very effective in combat and was daily item.
>>
Best shield is wooden shield with metal part.
If his sword is stuck on the wooden part, you can swiftly disarm him.
>>
>>141831330
Wouldn't dual wielding be super effective if you're suicidal ?
>>
>>141860529
weapons are pussy mode, real man dual wield shields for PVP.
>>
>>141860768
Didn't Europeans stop using wooden shields because non-splitting wood was crazy expensive and shields had to be replaced near enough every other fight?
>>
>>141830114
>why the fuck don't sword users use shields
Why don't they use spears and shields more like.

Also this:
>>141830169
Muh glorious nippon fighting
>>
>>141861141
Nope

Shields were not needed with improvements in Armour. Like having anything but wooden shields are expansive as fuck and heavy.
>>
>>141839333
>>141838845
>>141838398
>playing no poise memesouls 3
/v/ I need you to get out of my house
>>
>>141830347
rekt
>>
>>141845106
>Also, medieval steel was pretty dogshit and banging sword-on-sword is just a gamble whether yours or your opponent's sword will break first
>implying that fucking happened at all
Fighting is quick. Someone usually dies. Are you for real?
>muh sword breaking
>talking about hollywood being full of shit
Swords bend and warp but it's over time on a battle front. They don't die in one fucking engagement. Fuck me.
>>
>>141845476
>everyone had plate shields were dead
>knights and high ranks represent warfare
Fucking hilarious man, and every peasant had a fully kitted horse.

What school of hema? I've recently gotten into spanish fencing myself.
>>
Let's be honest, dual wielding in anime usually happens in settings where you can just ignore the lack of realism with magic and what not. The real reason anons sperg about it is because of SAO flashbacks
>>
>>141861672
Not even magic makes dual wielding viable with all that unwieldy slashing and shit.
The closest you can get is dual rapier. Any other time you want real side equipment like bucklers and daggers in your off hand.
>>
>>141861877
It does when you can just say enhanced reflexes and enhanced strenght
>>
>>141861991
No, it doesn't because if you had enhanced those traits you'd see the same improvement in traditional methods too. And, like as not, they'd retain their practical advantages.
>>
>>141862071
And who said traditional methods didn't improve? The thing is that once you introduce magic you have to be aware that traditional rules are no longer absolute
>>
>>141846037
>Sacrificing speed
I am OP as I said before animu character have superhuman physical strength so most shields are feathers to them meaning they dont slow them down at all.
>>
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>>141861672
>SAO flashbacks
I'm still amused by just how easily that one show can trigger /a/.
>>
>>141850881
>Shields are useless since they hit so hard the shield would be broken if it got hit by the enemy
This is animu land anon the shields are obviously magically thousand of times more durable than real life shields.
>>
>>141860529
We can use a shield in Dark Souls?
>>
>>141861375
>no poise
Thank God.
>>
>>141830114
All anime warriors use light armor with some plates that cover vital parts, no helmets and only a weapon, plus being able to super dodge and lightspeed parries.
Rule of cool.
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