Berserk thread

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Firstly, we must consider Plato's theory of forms/ideas. The term idea comes from the Greek ἰδέα. These are what Plato asserts are perfect templates that exist in a higher reality than our own which are conceivable by our own thoughts and feelings. Ideas are the ultimate reference points for all objects we observe in the physical world - our reality, which is objective yet subjectively interpretable by our individual perceptions, ultimately emanates from these pure concepts. They are more real than the physical objects you see in the world.

This is a chicken or the egg situation - ideals are conceived by humanity, but have always been there. Berserk's is a world where humanity's minds are undeniably embodied in the Astral, and that is its divergence from our own. In Berserk, the human condition is wishing for a reason for suffering, so with humanity comes the Idea of Evil, which grants their wish.

As to Schopenhauer, he believed that behind the scenes of life there was something pernicious that made a nightmare of our world. The phenomenal world, and consequently all human action, is the product of a blind, insatiable, and malignant metaphysical will that drives all life forward in a grand, fundamentally interconnected world (incidentally, this is part of H.P. Lovecraft's inspiration for Azathoth, the Outer God which dreams our reality into existence).

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>>140379061
>>140379105
2deep4weeb

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>>140379061
Griffith did nothing wrong?

But how do we discover what happens after death without dying?

>>140379061
Is this a copy pasta? If not, then good job OP, this is really good.

>>140379061
was this pic made by Miura?

>>140379061
Needs more rape

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I want to cum inside Guts.

>>140379061
You win OP, you're the most autistic anon I've met so far on this board.

>>140379061
Why would a loli want to bang Christ though?

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>>140380974
not copy, discussed berserk with my philosophy professor
>>140381671
:D

Last chapter was a cute witch girl about to fight Guts' team. Nothing since then?

>>140379061
Griffith is definitely a true antichrist.

I think you're going a bit too far with Guts. While he incorporates the messiah traits necessary to make him a fitting counterpart to Griffith, Miura added a layer of "flaw". The Christians would never have wanted their messiah to be a symbol of hate and revenge. To be a messiah in a Christian sense, one would have to embrace and incorporate the concept of "forgiving". This is incompatible with Guts' character. This is okay, though. He wasn't meant to be a "true" messiah against Griffith.

One could argue now that with Guts not being a perfect messiah, Griffith could not be a perfect antichrist either. This is wrong.

The Christians tried to have the messiah of their stories to be a "flawed" being, but they failed. They could not go through with it. What they created was a divine messiah who played mortal for a while. Only looking to be flawed, but never actually so. Guts is the perfect counterpart for Griffith. Creating the opposite of a being that is meant to be a symbol for perfection inevitably leads to imperfection. But imperfection is human. Therefore, Guts is not a "true" messiah, but a "human" messiah, a flawed being struggling for salvation.

>>140379061
>>140379105
Why God?! What is it with Portuguese and Japan?

>>140381595
Put your trip back on, Griffith

>>140379061
/pol/ pls.

>>140381370
No.

>>140382750
>Griffith is definitely a true antichrist.
The trick when dealing with all of this is that you have to remember that Satan or The Devil is a product of mankind attempting to find benevolence in their focus of worship. The Abrahamic god is petty, callus, cruel. Laying waste to civilizations and sewing the seeds of chaos and disorder and famine and death,

The Devil is a creation out of desperation. The idea of the Antichrist born out of that source. The truth of that religion is that God doesn't care about you. Angels aren't beings of benevolent mercy but horrific ear-searing beasts of maddening countenance.

>>140385499
I mean, the basis of Heaven is the idea that all souls return to God. Not to exist in Paradise, but to be consumed. To be returned to the mass of the divine being. To be eaten and lose any sense of self.

I'm a big fan of promethean characters. The figures that rebelled and gave the resources or inspiration to Man so that Man could stand a chance against the madness that is Heaven. And who often suffered immensely for it.

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will he make his big debut?

>>140386078
Has anyone else noticed he kinda looks like a behleit?

>>140387027
It's because black people are severely deformed, base creatures.

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Real question here, why does Gutts attract so many lolis? Is it because he had big sword?

>>140388671
It's because drawing people's deaths depresses Miura or something. I wish he'd hold back on the fourth wall jokes.

>>140388671
because Miura loves his idols and Guts is his self insert

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>>140382750

I'll skip ahead and get to Schopenhauer's relevant point: human beings are not as invulnerably self-possessed as they'd like to believe. Every person, from birth till death, is a product of their environment, the genes of their parents and their formative experiences, an indeterminable series of events and conditions, many of which they cannot control. Could this not indicate that factors beyond our control have already taken care of who we are as individuals and what choices we will finally make? People are made as they are made (by their genetics, formative experiences, et al.) and cannot be otherwise. That is the Fate of Berserk's world and, indeed, can be argued to apply to our own as well.

Nietzsche drew inspiration from Schopenhauer in his own philosophies, but what is relevant here, and why the Idea most pertinent to Berserk was called "Evil" is almost certainly because of him. Nietzsche believed that the concept of evil as applied by humans had a negative effect on people's potential by promoting the weak in spirit and suppressing the strong. He contends that the powerless and weak created the concept of evil to take revenge against their oppressors, and asserts that the concepts of good and evil contribute to an unhealthy view of life which judges relief from suffering as more valuable than creative self-expression and accomplishment. For this reason Nietzsche believes that we should seek to move beyond judgements of good and evil.

Griffith and Guts are both übermenschen who surpass the definition of evil following their own moral values and therein are able to work within a fate which holds down others from greatness.

>>140388671
Those lolis rarely have a father figure, which they find in Guts

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>>140389051
With or without the Idea of Evil, humans would still act as they do. It is merely an ἰδέα, a manifestation conjured by them in the Astral. This is why all of the God Hand an Apostles ultimately stem from humanity itself and that is the Idea of Evils ONLY tangible means of action.

Which is why treating the Idea of Evil as a character unto itself is retarded. It might as well be Griffith talking to himself. He's having a deep inner revelation which enlightens him as to the nature of the world.

>>140388814
>I wish he'd hold back on the fourth wall jokes

Fucking this. Puck isn't even a character anymore.

>>140389096
Idea of Evil isn't canon

>>140389139
Puck was only ever there for grimdark relief and fairy dust. He's useless on both counts now.

>>140389297
He was also an exposition/viewpoint character but now he's shite.

I can't remember the last time either fairy was drawn properly for even a single panel

>>140389297
He helped in Guts' progression into being a somewhat compassionate person.

In the end, in our last hour we're all slaves to the power of death.

>>140381977
summer 2016

>>140389391
this tbqh

he was so much better when drawn in a proper way...

>>140389260
Griffith still sees the Idea of Evil when being transformed into Femto in a full page spread. The conversation was cut but the IoE is still Canon.

>>140389297
Huh, well I guess that's true though he still helps concerning healing.

>>140389260
Incorrect. IoE is canon. The speech it told Griffith isn't canon but it does give a very clear explanation of what is going on in the Berserk universe.

One of the main issues concerning the existence of a God is how we have free will if everything is determined by fate. Determinism versus free will. Berserk just says that everyone has free will but is subtly manipulated to the direction desired by a higher entity.
I find that clever.

>>140389260
Also, to expand, IoE is canon for exactly one panel, making his existence true.

Griffith is the antechrist.
Guts is just a guy born to suffer, reminder his actions have had litterally no impact on Griffith's plans, he's as relevant as Rickert.

Are you the same guy from the last thread? Because if you are, then it is pretty good to hear from you, man.

can griffith switch from femt to human form whenever he wants to?

>>140379105
So in order to defeat the idea of evil you'd just need to expose it and let all of humanity dream of something to stop it?

>>140391684
Well he did in that one scene where Skull Knight tried to hit him with his behelit sword, so yes.

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>>140391750
No, in order to defeat the IoE, you have to give an reason for all of the suffering in the world (which is random, and there is none) or remove all of humanity entirely.
IoE only exists to give meaning to the biggest collective negative emotion human experience, namely the suffering of existence itself.

>>140391793
i have just finished reading the manga for the first time and I don't understand, why does griffith even want to create a kingdom on earth?

I know this was his dream etc, but it doesn't seem that relevant now that he has immortality and demi god capabilities as femto

>>140391944
Griffith was chosen as the filth god hand because of who he was. It's likely that his human dream coincides with the godhand's goals.

>>140391944
Despite everything, he's still a slave to his desires.

>>140391944
>why does griffith even want to create a kingdom on earth?
Because it's his dream. The real question is what happens to a man that has gained an impossible dream that was never supposed to be gained?

>>140379061
its mentioned that good and evil are pretty much different sides of the same coin. hes both the christ and the anti-christ in that sense. guts is not a messiah in any way, the whole point of his character is to be human, not god. id compare him to judas. hes the messiah's closest friend, the only one that can see through his charisma, disobey him, and treat him like the human he ultimately is/was.

>>140392363
Guts is like a Peter in his values but a Judas in his perceptions.

>>140392433
hmm yea i can get on board with that. much like peter he didnt really betray the messiah, he just didnt help him when he was captured.

>>140391891
theoreticly, would a believing in the post modern idea that there is no true/false good/evil kill the idea of evil?

>>140379061
>who appears to grant those who follow him happiness, peace, and security
>He is superficially without flaw
>Beneath his heavenly exterior, he is nothing but the ultimate devil, the prince of lies, and he will lead humanity astray in the final days of judgment

I don't see Miura hinting at these things. While it's true that he chose Guts for the main character, I think the story is a bit more "beyond good and evil" than that.

To be more specific than "the antichrist," Griffith is Nietzsche's Dionysian ideal, while Guts is "night" from The Night-Song in Thus Spoke Zarathustra (a Dionysian dithyramb):

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1998/1998-h/1998-h.htm#link2H_4_0037

If you read Thus Spoke Zarathustra, there are tons of parallels, and possible connections to Berserk. Part 2 even ends on a kind of eclipse note; and at the beginning of Part 3, Zarathustra boards a ship in which one other person boards it, and the talk among the sailors reawakens Zarathustra's heart (like Griffith's heart thumping as he watches Guts and Zodd fight on the hill.

Griffith is the all-bestowing sun. His power and light is not superficial. But such a being's fatal flaw is love; tyrants cannot love, and an all-bestowing sun has no time for rest, no chance to feel human. The negative connotations in the story are because it is written from Guts's perspective, who is the opposite of Griffith.

>>140379061
>>140393096
Also,

>Beneath his heavenly exterior, he is nothing but the ultimate devil, the prince of lies, and he will lead humanity astray in the final days of judgment

There is no actual proof or suggestion in Berserk that Femto is the "true" form of Griffith. Rather, I see it as being closer to his earlier statement that God and the Devil are the same. Guts sees the evil that an all-bestowing sun is capable of. This doesn't necessarily make the GOOD that it is capable of obsolete, unless you are a moralist and you allow your morals to make that judgment call. But logically speaking, one can be equally both, capable of both, in fairness, beyond good and evil.

And philosophically speaking, good and evil are attributes which the Other has to apply to a thing. Griffith is not inherently good, Femto is not inherently evil. Guts, Skull Knight, Casca etc. make Femto evil, while the Band of the Hawk pre-eclipse / Sophia / Mule / the citizens of Falconia etc. make Griffith good.

>>140392094
>that was never supposed to be gained
If fate allowed it, fate preordained it.

How did Guts' mom give birth if she was hanging from a tree?

>>140391944
I subscribe to the idea that Griffith created Falconia, broke the barrier between the Physical and Astral world, and became a beacon of hope in the newly Monster-set world so that all of Midland, if not as many humans as possible, would gather in Falconia's borders, to eventually be sacrificed in another Artificial Eclipse. Like how Griffith regained his mortal presence on the world, but for every member of the Godhand, giving them absolute power over the world.

The only way I see humanity making it out of this alive and free of the Idea of Evil is if Guts and Co. manage to kill the Godhand, and have the whole world know, so that they believe the reason for their suffering is dead, which should alter the human collective consciousness enough to erase the Idea of Evil from the Astral Plane.

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>>140379061
>western occultism
>Christianity

>>140391944
Griffith / Femto is the intoxicating god of ecstasy and darkness (Dionysus), even with near-unlimited power which refutes all needs to struggle for something greater in life he remains steadfast and pure about pursuing his dream. It's the Ubermensch way of dealing with nihilism.

>>140393594
Ah, but you see, here comes the interesting part. Skull Knight says that Guts is outside the will of causality. Whether that's true or not is unknown since everything has been basically going towards the plan of fate for Guts to lead an army to destroy Griffith with Caska.

There is an interesting dual view of what the ending of Berserk might entray and it all relays to how western and japanese tragedies are views. In the old greek tragedies, the hero and characters are all controlled by fate, and if the hero tries to be better than the gods or go against fate, he simply reinforces his fate and goes further into tragedy.

So, in that view, Berserk will end with Guts finding out that everything he's strugged was all according to keikaku. IoE is never defeated, Guts has to wait another 1000 years to kill Griffith and has to spend that time like Skull Knight did and wait until a new messiah is born and kill Void, but this time Griffith.

But Japan has a weird and interesting anti-deist view. A lot of their rpgs (especially Final Fantasy) involve the hero fighting against fate and killing God. So it's very possible that Guts might use the Tree of Life near Falconia to go directly to see IoE and destroy it, thereby freeing humanity and breaking the spiral of causality. Because causality is a spiral, but even spirals are not circles and must end somewhere.

So, who knows.

>>140392860
No, because suffering overseeds any postmodern idea that there is no good or evil. Suffering is all existent in the world and constant, and anything that creates that suffering is evil. You cannot make suffering into a positive trait.

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>An actual good conversation about Berserk
You don't see this often

>>140394997
It's hard to have good discussions when there isn't much new to talk about.

It has some amazing themes, though, and they're great to discuss when you've actually read up on it.

>>140395129
hey, do you have a blog or something? I'm keen to read some of your writing if you care to share it.

>>140393730
>became a beacon of hope
More like a beacon of chaos and death to everyone else that doesn't want to go to Falconia. I can't even imagine living in an actual realistic fantasy world. The entire world except for Falconia is fucked, and the God Hand basically have the entirety of humanity caged in one safe spot which they control. What they'll do is unknown, but I'm guessing a lot of degenerate roman shit. Utopias aren't meant to exist for a good reason.

The only way humanity will survive is for basically everyone outside of Falconia to gather around, make an army of every knight and mercenary protecting kingdoms, an army of witches, the Bākiraka clan, Skull Knight and Zodd, and hope it's enough to kill the God Hand, Griffith, the Holy See army and every Apostle. Plus Falconia is an insane city to destroy, especially besiege.

The only way to actually save the world is do destroy the Tree of Life next to Falconia which is basically generating all those fantasy monsters. I'm sure that cutting off that insanely large tree will make all the monsters disappear.

The problem is that doing so will basically throw the world back to how it was back in Gaiseric's time. A place without kingdoms, only clans and only war.
Because causality is a spiral and things go back in the opposite before coming back to its starting spot, if only slightly off.

>>140394806
Very interesting. I agree that there is a dual view going on in Berserk.

Personally, since I am less familiar with Japan and more familiar with Nietzsche, I attribute this dualistic view as coming from Nietzsche.

>Skull Knight says that Guts is outside the will of causality

From a Nietzschean perspective, Skull Knight's words here are both right and wrong, and the concept of "magic" in Berserk is essentially... the idea that there is a universal truth, but perspectivism overrides the notion of a universal truth and suggests that subject and object are interrelated (i.e. there is no truth independent of a perspective), which implies that A) there is an infinite number of truths possible, i.e. there are none, and B) it is of little consequence whether a thing be true or not in order for it to have an effect in the world. Hence, "magic" or the will's ability to shape reality in its own image, becomes Guts's means to fight God Hand, the hand of fate in Berserk, akin to the all power "universal truth" of reality. Imagination and willing are a human's way of dealing with the undefeatable force of fate.

The separation here is like the Apollonian and the Dionysian in Nietzsche's Birth of Tragedy. On the one hand, you have this Luciferian / sun god figure like Griffith, and the God Hand who are fate itself, a force which humans cannot overcome; on the other hand, you have Guts, the struggler, the ungodly human who, in the face of despair and a hopeless world void of inherent meaning, creates meaning for himself, carves a path of survival for himself by sheer will alone. Guts is the personification of the slave in human beings, endlessly struggling, becoming himself and creating meaning for himself through his struggle.

I think Griffith and Guts are neither right nor wrong. They are opposites in nature, which makes them true rivals and true friends.

>>140395316
I'm not the OP, anon.

>>140395495
>I'm not the OP, anon.

doesn't matter to me, I'm really enjoying this thread and interested in most of the ideas it has generated. I welcome the extra reading.

>>140395474
>I agree that there is a dual view going on in Berserk.
It's extremely present. Especially with Guts and Griffith. Guts is tall, strong, and later on, gets followed by people due to his actions. Griffith is smaller,
Guts is all about human individual importance whereas Griffith is more about value fate wise.

>>140393680
>How did Guts' mom give birth if she was hanging from a tree?

The womb contracts upon death to try and ensure survival of the offspring.

I want to cum inside Casca

Bump for fascinating themes, and the point about Puck not having been drawn probably in forever is bothersome.

I am pretty fucking sure the ending of Berserk is Guts taking his sword to the Tree of Life and making a glorious BOAT out of its branches to sail the astral darkness ocean of ecstasy forever and occasionally popping out of his realm of demon pirate slaying BOAT ADVENTURES every time an eclipse happens.

Casca melts/explodes out of her retarded body to encase his spirit in lewd vibrations or maybe his armor because this armor shit has to have a real resolution at some point if becoming Skull-Knightified isnt already decided on.

Through sheer mysticism and worship of Gut's big dick shreak/schriek/silke and Farnese form some kind of Guts Cabal of Will and the Strug Lyfe style to power his realm of BOAT ADVENTURES.

Hopefully the rest of the elves, people not in Sacrificetopia, and other minor characters are afflicted by motivation to actually do something and contribute to unfucking the world. Or some kind of spirit plague so I dont have to look at more chestnut elves.

>>140395638
One of the best threads in a while.

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is miura ok? i hate to be the "lol this shit is weird the guy that made this must be crazy" guy but lol this shit is weird the guy that made this must be crazy

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>>140399099
I want to cum inside snake baron.