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Touma vs Shirou

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Thread replies: 234
Thread images: 39

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Who will win?
>>
>>135654770
Who is the better fighter?
>>
>>135654834
Shirou is, even in a fistfight, since he trains every day.
>>
>>135654890
Don't think he trains HARD enough for kamiyan.
>>
Depends on who's plot armor is actually thicker.
Probably Touma's, as he does even more crazy stuff without getting as much hurt as Shirou.
>>
>>135654770

touma power just work with magic, if the enemy is well trained for combat, the odds are against touma.
>>
>>135654770
Shirou would open up his dream bubble and fling infinite swords at the fucker, then have an amazing debate over ideals and answers and bullshittery like hypocrisy and crap.
>>
At the beginning of the story and possibly Fate route, probably Touma.

Once Shirou absorbs Archer's fighting skills, Touma would lose.

If Shirou slices off Touma's arm, then Touma wins instantly.
>>
>>135655017

why would it be a insta win for touma if he gets his arm cut off ?
>>
>>135654770

Touma cancels out Shirou's projection, Shirou beats him in the ensuing fistfight.
>>
Right hand negates anything Shirou creates

in a 1v1 fistfight Touma will destroy him
>>
>>135655041

There are dragons inside his arm.
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>>135655041
Because Touma has an eight-headed dragon inside him that comes out and eats anything that cuts his arm off. His arm will then grow back immediately after.
>>
How strong is Touma's boxing game? Shirou is pretty swole and trains like an autist.
>>
>>135655099
That's stupid. Really stupid.
>>
>>135655112
If Touma gets a good hook in, it might manage to disorient Shirou a bit.

They both seem to have comparable levels of tolerance to pain. Touma's pain tolerance might be slightly higher because he's managed to withstand losing his arm three times without toppling over.
>>
They are both pretty fucking dense so it's a hard choice
>>
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>>135655099
I thought that was just Ars Magna backfiring. Or does the series go full retard where the anime ends?
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>>135654770
Samurai Flamenco
>>
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>>135655076
>>135655099

>Touma has an eight-headed dragon inside him

with that in mind,
did they ever explained why when the alchemist guy cut his arm, nothing appeared ?
they explain that pic related is just a product of the alchemist mind.
>>
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>>135654770
Shirou
>>
>>135654770
based on this:
http://toarumajutsunoindex.wikia.com/wiki/Kamijou_Touma/Abilities_and_Powers

Touma would probably win
>>
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>>135655283
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>>135655099
this image still gives me boners.
>>
In a debate? Touma would win by a landslide. It's not really hard to be more eloquent than Shirou.

Touma would also win in a random trivia contest.

Shirou would win in a cooking contest, but Touma would win at frugal spending.
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>>135655311
>>135655283
>people die if they are killed
I haven't watched Fate yet but these aren't real subs, right?
>>
>>135654770
touma's IB is literally plot armor power

how can shirou win against shitty plot armor?
>>
>>135654986
Thats what happen before infinite hell
>>
>>135655099
I wonder if his ability will be similar to Recca from flame of recca later on..
>>
>>135654770
the match heavily depends on who is living the more correct life
>>
>>135655374
Define "real subs".
>>
>>135655374
Japanese is a grey language, doesn't help if it's out of context.
>>
>>135655390
why? what happened? did othinus suddenly give him kung fu powers?
>>
>>135655384
By not using magic or esper? It only negates powers that aren't technically real, so just shoot him in the head.
>>
Imo, Shirou wins this easily. He's definitely superior in terms of physical strength and technique, seeing as he trains literally every day.

He also has a near infinite supply of weapons,which aren't just limited to swords, and if you take UBW or HF into account, he even has the whole contradiction thing backing him up.

Since Shirou fights using a very small amount of actual magecraft, Touma really doesn't have anything going for him aside from "I fight a lot and can read people fairly well".
>>
>>135655274
>SJW in a nutshell
>>
>>135655374
In context, that scene is immediately followed by "This is how it should be."
>>
>>135655457
He can even deal with saint now
>>
Can this dragon of Touma's eat swords?
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>>135655374
Are you new to anime?
>>
Shirou's overall stronger in a straight fight. By a significant margin if we take UBW and HF into account.

Touma's more of an all-arounder. His stats aren't anything special, but he's good at sneaking around, formulating plans on the fly, analyzing his opponents and their abilities and maximizing every single tiny advantage he can get his mitts on. So basically, lower-ranked Eye of the Mind (False).

Whether they can beat each other is irrelevant. It'd be more interesting to imagine what they could do when working together towards a common goal.
>>
>>135655626
If you merged Touma and Shirou together, you'd basically get a hyper-idealistic moralfag version of Archer. Imagine an Archer who completely embraces his ideals and doesn't have an ounce of cynicism in his body. That would be the result.

/a/ would hate him.
>>
>>135655283

>>135655311
There's literally nothing wrong with this one.

>Just as you deny me I deny you
>I won't lose to the me(version of myself) that became you.

Pretty much saying I won't lose to an inferior version of myself
>>
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>>135655411
>>
Shirou would win


how the fuck can touma dodge a barrage of swords?
>>
I'm going to assume that Touma can cancels Shirou's swords, which helps even the fight, so I think it would pretty much come down to a boxing match between the two.

Shirou does train every day, but Touma has more actual combat experience with his life on the line. I think it would end in a draw.
>>
>>135655794
Shirou can't summon UBW on his own. He only does because Rin gives him mana.

>how the fuck can touma dodge a barrage of swords

Same way he dodges everything fuckers throw at him at hypersonic speeds, he even reacted to the LS beam Index shot in the first fucking volume of the LN, precognition.
>>
>>135655797
Reminder that Shirou is a sword. Punching swords hurts, ask Kirei.
>>
>>135655794
imagine breaker bruh
ever heard of it?
>>
>>135655099
Dragon residing in Touma's arm is considered absurd even by magician who can bend reality, much less by normal magician. They make up stories that dragon is byproduct of Ars Magna backfiring.

TL;DR suspension disbelief in fantasy setting.
>>
>>135655827
Magic swords.
>>
>>135655794
Because they're magic swords and Touma can cancel them out.
>>
>>135655827

Shirou isn't normally literally made out of swords. That is only when Archers power is slowly destroying his body and he can't control it that that happens.
>>
How would a conversation between the the would go?
>>
>>135655894
So which version of Shirou would be fighting?
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>>135655827
bruh >>135655834
>>
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>>135655840
The Dragons are real and have literally popped up out of Touma's arm at multiple points in the series.
>>
>>135655915
I've actually not heard of it.
>>
>>135654770

Someone tell me why people post this image of Touma all the time. He's not necessarily wrong. I don't know the context behind him saying that in particular but people can live their lives incorrectly.
>>
>>135655913

I'd assume it wouldn't be the one whose body is so ravaged that he's going to be dead in less than 5 minutes.
>>
>>135655927
That's what I'm said. They just don't believe dragon reside in Touma's arm and they made story on the spot.

I'm sorry if my choice of word confuse you.
>>
>>135655969
It's the most powerful version, so why not?
>>
>>135655975
You're going to have to speak english more coherently ESL-kun.
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>>135655900
Where to get affordable groceries.
>>
>>135655900
i imagine them getting along

well that is if shirou wont go suicidal hero when they talk

since they would probably fight because of that
>>
>>135655900
>Touma: "So, who's your ideal girl?"
>Shirou: *turns into a stuttering mess*
>>
>>135654770
Well, shirou is literally the bone of his sword, with a body of steel and blood made of fire.

You tell me.
>>
Even Prisma Shirou can take him on. He's fit as fuck even when he's not a seigi no mikata.
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>>135656217
Isn't Prisma Shirou casually running around projecting Nine Lives?
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>>135654770
top cake
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>>135656461
He never did that but he probably could.

Still prisma characters are way waaay stronger than the ones from the normal universes.
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>>135655993
>implying endgame UBW shirou isn't stronger
>>
>>135656492
bro.
BRO.
do u even read prisma illya drei?
>>
>>135656498
Archer?
>>
>>135656532
No, they're definitely stronger. Bazett can do shit that she really should not be able to do if it was Nasu writing her. For some reason, Ilya was able to project an Excalibur that actually overpowered Saber Alter's Excalibur. Which shouldn't be possible on multiple levels.
>>
>>135656705
Because the sticks have infinite mana.
>>
>>135654834
They both have precognition but their abilities counter eachother so it's a cointoss.
>>
>>135656724
Even if they had infinite mana, that still shouldn't be possible. First off, divine-forged weapons can't be created through Gradation Air. Second, mana can't help with the automatic rank down that all projected Noble Phantasms are tied down by. Excalibur's rank is A++. So a projected Excalibur should be B++.

It's like how even with a functioning dragon reactor that's constantly pumping Saber full of mana, Excalibur still can't overpower Ea.
>>
>Gilgamesh was FTL
>Shriou can matched Gils speed in a fight
>Shirou is FTL
>Shirou speedblizzes Touma and the dragons
>>
>>135656794
> divine-forged weapons can't be created through Gradation Air
Except for all times they can be, I guess, in a number of works including actual VN.
>Pluses are not levels
Beyond A, they are. Shirou's Caliburn cut through God's hand even before Saber took it.
Also Illya has miracle-granting magic and we don't know how powerful was card's Excalibur or how much mana she had - it's not actual heroic spirit, after all.
>>
What would touma's servant be?
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>>135656953
Odin, considering he's already got the genderbent version of Odin as one of his companions in his series.
>>
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>>135656938
According to Nasu, there are "similar degraded weapons" in Unlimited Blade Works, though shooting a beam might be a little much for Shirou. Even if he wasn't dying due to Archer's arm, trying to shoot off a beam might very well kill him.

Even in Moon Cell, where the environment strengthens Archer's Gradation Air, he can only forge Excalibur Image, an extremely shoddy degraded version of Excalibur that can't approach anywhere near the original's power.

That being said, assuming that Ilya SOMEHOW created an Excalibur despite the fact that it shouldn't be within the Archer class card's ability, she probably would have enough mana to shoot out a beam without killing herself.

The funny thing is that the author of Prisma puts absolutely no effort into explaining how this shit works. This is what he wrote regarding the subject:

>He does not possess a specific Noble Phantasm, but by using Projection magecraft he can materialize Noble Phantasms. Originally, Excalibur and other things that surpass human limits, divine constructs cannot be projected. For argument's sake even if it were possible, that person is not the user and therefore cannot release the true name. However, the previous Ilya did just that, weakened as it was, its output still exceeded that of the original.
>Kuro isn't currently able to use such an advanced exploit so the ability of her projected Excalibur is like a paper mache version.

He doesn't even try to explain what this "advanced exploit" is. All I know is Prisma Ilya must be way, way more powerful than OG Ilya to pull that off.
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>>135654770
if its just one gets knock down match then definitely shirou

but if ts fight to the death then touma


death is too lucky for touma and that imagine breaker doesnt allow him the peace of death.
>>
>>135657142
Illya is literally the holy grail, all she does is because infinite mana and true magic.
>>
>>135657219
Ilya is the Lesser Grail. She is not in any way omnipotent. Her Sorcery Trait is "wish", which allows her to do anything so long as it's within her prana capacity to do so. But her prana capacity is definitely not infinite. She also can't use Magic. The Third Magic can only be achieved upon the completion of the Holy Grail. Even in Heaven's Feel, Ilya was only able to use an incomplete form of the Third at the end of the route.

The reason Sakura has endless mana flowing into her is because she was connected to the Root by the completed Grail. Since the Grail was never completed Prisma's timeline, her capacity should be nowhere near infinite. Recreating the crystallization of humanity's wishes and firing a beam from it should be beyond her.
>>
>>135655099
>>135655076
>>135655041
>>135655017
>If Shirou slices off Touma's arm, then Touma wins instantly.
Implying Shirou woudn't kill said dragons with Excalibur or an anti-dragon weapon like the one he has in his UBW because he saw it used on saber
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Saber_of_Red
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Clarent_Blood_Arthur
>>
>>135657309
Did you forget about the convenient source of infinite mana that's voiced by Kohaku?
>>
>>135657309
For all we know, Excalibur she fought against was even worse. And she did spend almost ten years of magical energy onto that, so who knows what is and what is not beyond her?
>>135657578
Said source wasn't with her at the moment.
>>
>>135657578
Not at the time. But even with infinite mana, it shouldn't be possible to recreate Excalibur to such a level. That's no longer an issue of mana, but rather something beyond human comprehension.

>>135657660
Even with ten years of mana, recreating a sword forged by fairies using the crystallized wishes of humanity as the primary ingredient is crazy.
>>
Man, it's obvious that Hiroyama didn't know what he was doing at the time and just threw out whatever. And then, later on, he tried to cover it up using the "advanced exploit" explanation in the hopes that people will buy it and move on.
>>
>>135657748
Well, it's possible to recreate something like this sword with projection, and wish-granting magic made it even closer to the original. Then she fought with the copy of it, which wasn't going at full power of Servant, using 10 years of mana in the process. Look at it like that, and it doesn't sound that impossible.
>>
>>135657920
It's not. Under ordinary circumstances, divine-forged weapons like Excalibur can't be created. In fact, this holds true even in Prisma, as stated by Hiroyama. Even in the Moon Cell where the quality of projection is superior than in reality, Archer can only create a heavily degraded version that can't even shoot beams properly.

What Ilya did literally should not be possible.
>>
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How do we defeat the Touma? With a net?
>>
>>135658134
What's the reference of this pic?
>>
>>135658098
Shirou created Excalibur with the beam in HF normal, even if it killed him. And Archer stated that he could create inferior version of Excalibur when he and Saber clashed at the church.
>>
>>135657326
>implying Shirou can use excalibur
Only Moon Cell Archer could pull that shit off reliably.
>>
>>135658189
I don't recall. It's been forever since it was posted.
>>
>>135658203
It was apparently a lie. The fact that Archer was only able to create a heavily degraded copy of Excalibur whose beam didn't even have a fraction of the original's power while backed up by the Moon Cell supports this. Holy Swords can't be recreated, but according to Nasu, Archer does possess some similar, albeit degraded weapons in stock.

The main problem here is the limitations of human minds. When Shirou sees a weapon, he automatically analyzes it and it's subsequently "stored" in Unlimited Blade Works. When Shirou projects a sword using Gradation Air, he's effectively "pulling" the sword out of his internal world and laying it onto reality. The problem with Excalibur comes at the analysis stage. Shirou's human brain cannot fully comprehend Excalibur. Think of a slightly less extreme version of what he went through when trying to analyze Ea. Since Shirou cannot analyze Excalibur, he cannot properly store it within Unlimited Blade Works and thus he can't recreate it with Gradation Air.

The exception lies within the Moon Cell, where the quality of wrought iron is higher than on Earth. This allows Archer to create Excalibur Image, in his own words a "fragment" of Excalibur that doesn't even hold a fraction of the original's power. He can only do this in the Moon Cell after setting up Unlimited Blade Works.
>>
>>135655281
Railgun messed up it entirely. The dragon is the alchemist's representation of the 'Invisible Thing' which is the unsealed power of Imagine Breaker.
>>
Touma took on a God for over a billion years and eventually won.

Touma takes this easy.
>>
>>135658480
By talking it out, sure.

Actually, you might be onto something here. Touma probably can beat Shirou if he uses diplomacy.
>>
>>135656461
I'm sorry this statement spawned powerlevel arguments.

By "Prisma Shirou", I mean that little faggot in Illya's house. Not Miyu's onii-chan
>>
>>135658545
Who needs diplomacy when you can genderbend him and force him into your harem
>>
>>135655131
Meanwhile shirou has excalibur
>>
>>135658480
I could see Fate route Shirou winning if he has a wooden sword while reinforcing himself.
>>
>>135658608
You're doing this on purpose, aren't you?
>>
>>135658616
Shirou in all routes is made of magical blades
Touma slaps him and he bursts into magical shards of steel
>>
>>135658424
> It was apparently a lie
Well it sure fooled Angry Manjew into dying.
>>
>>135658651
Excalibur's blast didn't kill the Manjew. Kiritsugu did the same thing 10 years prior.
>>
>>135658651
Maybe it was another degraded Noble Phantasm that happens to resemble Excalibur Morgan when blurred. The name of the weapon Shirou uses to destroy Angra Mainyu in Heaven's Feel's Normal End is never actually stated.
>>
>>135658650
Not how a reality marble works. The inner world is inner. You cannot touch it until it's deployed onto the outer.
Unless Touma kills literally everyone he touches, because he destroys their soul.
>>
>>135658742
If he is enough of a deviation from the world that he can deploy it then Touma can probably smack him away
>>
>>135658766
Magic circuits, too, reside in the soul. Touma doesn't touch people's souls.
However, magecraft in Type-Moon is not deviations in the world, they are just the same as natural processes. It's just engineering with an energy source that technology doesn't harness. The way it's described is basically that, yes, a magus can hurl a fireball that burns down a house, but so can a dude with a flamethrower. It's just the physics of the setting. The physics system called the world permits its existence.
True magic, however, is an impossibility. The world just sort of shadows true magicians and watches them warily, though.
Reality Marbles, admittedly, are a true deviation. The world tries to destroy them at every turn. But the inner world remains inner so long as it's not cast.
>>
>>135654770
They'd be best friends.
>>
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>>135658560
>implying you won't get forced into her harem
>>
Archer happened so Shirou is not infallible and has much weaker plot armor. Touma wrecks him.
>>
>>135658990
Considering there are 41 ends where Shirou either dies or for some reason cannot otherwise continue his life, I'd say his plot armor is pretty fragile to begin with.
>>
>>135654770
Shiki
>>
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>>135654770
Shiki > *
>>
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>>135656498
>>
Is NT the HF of INDEX??
>>
>>135655099
How strong are these dragons? I mean this series has a bunch of universe resetting gods and angels so why are people afraid of a bunch of long necked lizards?
>>
>>135660164
They cancel magic and other various paranormal things if you touch them, if a servant is touched by Touma's hand, the servant would dissapear.

Same for the grail.
>>
Touma would punch Saber after hearing her story of not living her life correctly. He would give a pat on Shirou's shoulder.
>>
>>135658677
Shirou destroyed the greater grail which was the source of the Holy Grail War. Kiritsugu only destroyed the lesser grail.
>>
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>>135660037
>Shirou
>Can kill servants

>Shiki
>Cant kill servants

>Shirou>>>>Shiki

Shiki fags BTFO
>>
>>135660705
do you even fate/EXTRA?
>>
>>135660760
>Implying extra is canon
Sorry to burst your bubble but word of the author has more weight than a borderline canon game
>>
>>135660879
>Thinking extra is not canon

Is this really /a/?
>>
>>135660907
That a poor argument,anon
>>
>>135660960

Do you also think Melty Blood is not canon and only the tsukihime manga/anime is?
>>
>>135660879
>pulling a 'canon' excuse on a multi-verse series
dude, try harder
>>
>>135660879
Alternative universe where everything is canon.
Fate/stay night - 2004
Take-Moon - 2004
Fate/hollow ataraxia - 2005
Fate/stay night anime - 2006
Fate/stay night manga - 2006
Fate/Zero - 2006
Fate/tiger colosseum 2008
Fate/kaleid liner PRISMAILLYA - 2007
Fate/unlimited codes - 2008
Fate/strange fake - 2008
Fate/kaleid liner PRISMAILLYA 2wei! - 2009
Fate/Extra - 2010
Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works film - 2010
Fate/Zero manga - 2011
Carnival Phantasm - 2011
Fate/Prototype - 2011
Fate/Zero anime - 2011
Fate/Apocrypha - 2012
Fate/kaleid liner PRISMAILLYA 3rei!! - 2012
Fate/hollow ataraxia manga - 2013
Fate/Extra CCC - 2013
Fate/kaleid liner PRISMAILLYA anime - 2013
Fate/kaleid liner PRISMAILLYA 2wei! anime - 2014
Fate/stay night Unlimited Blade Works series - 2014
Fate/kaleid liner PRISMAILLYA 2wei! Herz - 2015
Fate/Grand Order - 2015
Fate/stay night Heaven's Feel film - Not yet aired
Fate/strange fake

all canon
>>
>>135660971
Why would I think that? It doesnt contradict with authors statements.

>>135660984
>But muh kaleidoscope
You cant pull Zelretch on everything
>>
>>135661001
source?
>>
>>135661039
Isn't the fact that the f/sn vn has 3 different routes enough proof of a multiverse?
>>
>>135661103
Being multiverse isnt a excuse for something being canon especially when it contradicts with authors statements and the original source material.
>>
>>135661039
The moment nasu and type-moon told everyone that multiverse is canon through the damn wizard of oz, everything is canon, there's no need to explain shit.

Just accept it, nasu ain't gonna cover all his plotholes, and he wont stop making new ones down the line.
>>
>>135661137
both are original source material, what's wrong is the arthur. deal with it.
>>
>>135660164
The dragons in Touma's arm are not actually dragons.It's an entity that takes the form of an eight headed dragon called the Invisible Thing.Not much is known about it.
>>
>>135660879
I dunno man, seeing that same author also allowed Shiki to appear in that so called bordeline canon game kinda proof on itself too..
retcon happen, it's not something new.
>>
>>135661171
That isnt a source anon. Give links
>>135661190
Extra isnt.tho,desu
>>135661331
MB doesnt contradict with word of god tho
>>
>>135655927
They only appared twice. Every other time its invisible thing.
>>
>>135658825
>they are just the same as natural processes
The same as true for Index. IB defines what's natural based on the pure world, which is pretty much the our RL world.
>>
>>135661417
You can educate yourself on the mutliverse nature of nasuverse through google, anon.

Have a read on Zelretch and second magic also on the idea of multiverse.

Nasus himself said the extra world diverge from fsn world from the 90s or the 80s, I forgot.

Either way, everything is on google, there's no need to discuss something that we already came to an conclusion years ago.
>>
>>135661417
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Fate/Extra

Tell me who's the scenario writer.

Hint ctrl+f nasu
>>
>>135661417
>Extra isn't canon
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Kinoko_Nasu
>>
>>135661647
Google gave nothing. You resort to lying,disgusting.
>>135661727
>>135661787
Doesnt have anything conserning exras canonity. Nice try tho
>>
>>135661894
>Argues about original source and arthor has the most authority over something's canon status
>Source: 135660879 but word of the author has more weight
>Source: 135661019 authors statements
>Source: 135661171 authors statements and the original source material
Yeah I added those in just to spite you.
>Written by Nasu, the original arthor
>Both of them
>Part of his multiverse
>But anon, it didn't include a Nasu quote saying, "yes, this is canon" so it can't be canon!

Never go full retard.
>>
>>135662113
>argues
>still no evidence,links,statements or quotes

yeah,never go full retard. Your headcanon isnt real,sempai
>>
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I figure Shirou could beat him up even without any magic shit.
>>
>>135654770
whoever has the thicker plot armor
>>
This thread is classic /a/.
>>
>Get bow and arrows
>Ded Touma
it's not even a contest, Shiro could beat Touma even with a shinai since he can actually figtht instead of brawl.

>Losing to a girl, time after time
>Women shouldn't fight
Okay, Shirou
>>
>>135658766
And Touma killed Index in the first novel while touching her. Oh wait, that didn't happen.
>>
Isn't this quite simple actually(or do I still need to do a lotnof catching up with the Index storyline(have stopped where the anime series ends).
Shirou works out EVERY day. This would, as it always does with Touma, come down to physical strength, a fist fight if you will. Shirou would win, right?
>>
>>135664018
>Losing to a girl, time after time
>Women shouldn't fight
>Okay, Shirou
Silly anon. He did it on purpose. Can you imagine how embarrassed he is? He was beaten and protected by woman after all.
>>
>>135655374
even a monkey would understand that shirou meant that archer's subjective right doesnt coincide with shirou's own subjective right
>>
>>135661647
>Nasus himself said the extra world diverge from fsn world from the 90s or the 80s, I forgot.
Type-Moon Fes Q&A
>Q: What is the reason of the Mana depletion in the world of Extra?
>A: Gonna leak you some info. It is the "what if scenario" caused by a "certain ritual" that occurred in the 1970's. This ritual is not expected to happen until the year 20XX.
>>
>>135655873
is this really true? i always thought the only magic part was creating them
>>
>>135658443That is wrong. As I got to learn from a person, WHO KNOWS A OERSON that is reading the light novels, [SPOILERISH] the dragon that had "appeared" and explained as the alchemist's mind going rampant, in the scene in which Touma, the Alchemist and the fire mage dude had fought, was the actual Imagine Breaker. It wasn't the alchemist's mind giving reality to the dragon, it was a wittful plot mechanich, so to say. Anyways, the dragon that had appeared at the place of Touma's hand is the actual might of what the power is. It was fully real. But, as the plt wanted everyone to beleive that to just be the alchemist's rampant mind's creation, even the characters had to be presented as not being aware of that that was nothing less than the Imagine Breaker itself.

(leaving the picture just because I love such beautiful pictures)
>>
>>135664509
I 2nd your question.
>>
>>135664446
I think you're being a bit untrue to yourself by saying that. I think that you should very well know that most people of the world still don't differentiate their own subjectiveness from what they perceive as the objective thought.
>>
>>135664509
>>135664698
They are projections. They are constructs of magic in the shape of a sword, illusions. They are just the best illusions, the kind that are physical.
>>
>>135664334
Shirou though is an expert marksmen. He has perfect accuracy with bows and arrows and later firearms which apparently he took a liking to as noted in Extra.

Shirou doesn't need to use projections when Touma can just be shot.
>>
>>135664768
Don't think I'm trolling you now. I don't find that explanation to be conclusive enough, because I don't remember his projections being illusions (yes, it is utterly possible that I have forgotten such a major detail). Projection isn't illusion, it's giving form to the illusions you see in your mind, and thus making them real? Making them be real without supplying any further mama to it, being fully real. Like, servants aren't "real", for they require a constant flow of mana to remain. (sorry if I'm very wrong overall, feel free to just leave a link if you don't feel like explaining it all to me).
>>
>>135664824
Also a valid point.
>>
>>135664869
servants are real anon. They think so they exist.
If they exist,they are real
>>
>>135664936
Amm, real in the context that we're speaking of right now holds the meaning of not being any part magic(something that the Imagine Breaker can't dissipate), anon. :P
>>
>>135665035
Imagine Breaker could cancel stuff created with Ars Magna so it would be the same with Shirou swords
>>
>>135665183
But.. Ars Magna is not even questionably magic.. I don't mean anything bad, but your example is contradictive to itself, as in it is not valid.
>>
>>135664869
Projections have to be constantly maintained by their creator. Once the image that is does not match the image that is, the world destroys the illusion.
They don't need to be sustained magically, but that's only because the world isn't trying to destroy them, because the world (that is, a system of physics laws generated by planet earth) is fooled by the illusion, too.
>>
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>>135665820
Derped out there
>Once the image that is created does not match the image that is thought of, the world destroys the illusion.
That's why the swords evaporate when broken.
>>
>>135654770
>implying they would fight
>implying they would not be bros
>implying they would not have gay sex
>>
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Move over peasants
Real man with an ambition coming thought
>>
>>135661001
>Alternative universe fags
I want /co/ to leave
>>
>>135665820
Good explanation.. I am confused further more though.. Still I don't see the answer that the Imagine Breaker would dissipate the projected swords... Like, Excalibur would only be able to be used as a normal sword, the real, Saber's excalibur, in a fight agains Touma, so.. The projected swords by Shiro, would also be mere swords.. Anyways, I still don't see the answer as to why Touma would dissipate Shiro's projected swords(but do note that that is the outcome I am weighting to myself aswell).
>>
Well for once if this is just a match where they just knock each other out
then touma will lose since when facing with characters like shirou, he always doubt himself and jobs to an enemy that has more ideals than him.

And if its a fight to the death
then touma might win
Touma can be really agressive when piss off to the max and the shit he do mostly are horror movie villan tier, not to mention his ridiculous tenacity againts enemies.
>>
>>135654770
Shirou is older, way stronger and more trained than that faggot. He was the ace in the archery club and trains almost everyday, he managed even to repel or resist to servants' attacks, even Chu when he fought him was surprised that Shirou managed to parry some of his attacks. Touma on the other hand finishes almost all of his battles with a shitty punch, he doesn't have the skills and the martial training of Shirou.
>>
meme aside, couldn't they just shoot with a gun touma? Was this ever a thing in the LN?
>>
>>135668355
At this point his bullshit precog would make him dodge it
>>
>>135655156
Yep, Touma's an experienced street fighter and would give Shirou a run for his money. I'd say a draw as they'd probably know each other out
>>
Gae Bolg solves the problem
>Gae Bolg
>Heart is pierced
>Gae Bolg is dispelled

Touma would still have a pierced heart.
>>
>>135671632
When has Gay bulge hit the heart?
>>
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>>135656859
>Gil
>FTL
>>
>>135671733
Fate/Hollow Ataraxia
>>135671781
Gil was FTL is CCC, but in UBW? lol no
>>
>>135654770
I think Shirou would win, though it's because of Avalon and also if he had swords going through his body like HF I think Touman wouldnt be able to punch through. As a 1v1 brawl with no magic probably Touma.
>>
>>135672242
>. As a 1v1 brawl with no magic probably Touma.
In terms of raw power Shirou is way stronger, he trains everyday. In terms of skills once again Shirou trained in martial arts, and he's quite skilled at using weapons. Martial arts>some random street fight done by a 15yrs old brat
>>
>>135668355
He's very tenacious and the magic doctor always gets to him in time even when taking critical otherwise-lethal wounds.
>>
>>135672488
Dont magus have insane durability thanks to their circuits?
>>
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>>135655156
>They both seem to have comparable levels of tolerance to pain. Touma's pain tolerance might be slightly higher because he's managed to withstand losing his arm three times without toppling over.
Shirou was very nearly bisected shoulder to opposite waist and he just stood back up.
I don't think his pain tolerance can be described in words.
>>
>>135661001
>all these Fate spinoffs exist
Fucking Japs and their shit taste
>>
>>135658742
Its explained in index that things that exist in an absurd amount like billions and for a big enough time stop being "paranormal" for the world, otherwise, Touma would neglect life itself.
Its how IB works
>things that are supposed to be in the world "originally" dont get IB'd
>things that arent do
>vague parameter about what is and what isnt it
>>
>>135672684
He had Avalon though. In HF when he lost connection with Saber and Avalon stopped working one kick from Assassin fucked him up
>>
>>135673037
Avalon doesn't make it hurt less.
>>
>>135673011
Well magecraft has existed for at least 5000 years, having existed since the time of Gilgamesh. Magecraft and true magic as concepts are as old as the root, considering true magics touch the root and most magecraft was once true magic.
>>
>>135658443
The author clearly lays out the possibility that it could have been a legit dragon. In fact, the foreshadowing that it was a fucking dragon came as early as volume 1 where Stiyl remarks that the protective magics of the walking church could only be surpassed by St. George's Dragon. Pendex even employs St. George's Sanctuary against Touma, implying magic designed to fight dragons was the optimal way to deal with the Imagine Breaker. The fact that we needed Railgun to confirm it 10 years later only shows how thick headed the fanbase really is when it comes to nuance and foreshadowing.
>>
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>>135673092
It does, with every second it hurt less as wound heal.
>>
>>135673244
Thats not enough, Life has been around for millions of years and the ammount of life on the plannet is not even measurable. Religion and Magic has also been around on index for atleast some thousand of years, there are churches in index that have lierally millions of people who follow it and know magic. IB stills negates then, for it to be considered as "normal" by the world it needs absurd amount of time and numbers.
>>
>>135673495
That is long after the fact and only when Saber helps out by amplifying Avalon's effect with her proximity. Severe injuries take longer to begin with. Avalon would barely have mitigated any sensations when Merodach split him apart.
>>
>>135673774

The spiral of origin is as old as time itself. (Older, if you want to get technical, as it existed before time's reign.) True magic has always existed, it's just a matter of if anyone could use it.
Really, it's a metaphysical incompatibility. "Age" in Type-Moon is meaningless from a cosmic perspective. Everything that will ever be is written in the akashic records and has already happened outside time's domain. Heroes are older than time, older than the human race, because they existed in the throne before ever becoming heroes.
So it'd depend on if it works as a concept vs. as a practice.
>>
>>135674086
Things like Angels have also been there since the very beginning, IB will still Negate it, its really hard to make something become "normal" for the world, life is basically the exception.
>>
>>135673868
Avalon allowed Kerry to ignore pain from getting his heart blown away. It definitely lesser pain for the owner
>>
>>135654770

Kerry. Fuck your ethics. He has Time Alter, Origin Bullets, C4, and all Touma's friends are hostages.
>>
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>>135674498
This is not the expression of someone in no pain. He didn't ignore it, he powered through it.
The light novel even explains how he's working through terrible pain.

>Kiritsugu’s body died and was reborn. He shrieked in agony as he sliced at the enemy before him with the dagger. His blood vessels, endlessly repeating a cycle of rupture and repair, shed sanguineous mists with every movement.
>Kiritsugu grated out a spell, from a throat that was frothing with blood.
>The explosive pain boiled into every part of his senses.
>Kiritsugu ignored the pain Innate Time Control inflicted upon him, and maintained the spell
>Even so, Kiritsugu did not hesitate. There was no need to hesitate. As long as his body could still move, he didn’t need to pay any attention to what he was feeling. Kiritsugu bet everything on the effects of the holy sword's sheath, and continued to accelerate against the agony.


Kiritsugu and Shirou both have unfathomable pain tolerance.
>>
>>135674866
Oh, and I forgot this lovely paragraph.
>Kiritsugu’s arms, legs, and heart let out sad screams of pain with every swing of the dagger. The adverse effect of Innate Time Control mercilessly tore apart Kiritsugu’s flesh, and Avalon fixed the damage, momentarily. Regardless of how Saber herself had used it, the sheath was only ‘healing’ Kiritsugu while in his body- it could not prevent him from taking damage, it was simply healing the damage he took. The excruciating pain of torn tendons and snapped bones tormented Kiritsugu’s nerves every single moment.

Avalon makes the pain go away faster. It doesn't make it less pain at all.
>>
>>135674086
akashik records are irelevant becasue imagine breaker is just returning everything to state that exits in orginal world and orignal words is pretty much world that we live in.So if we cant do it now, imagin breaker will cancel it
>>
>>135674866
Touma seems to be able to take more damage and still fight. Without Avalon one hit from Assassin made Shirou unable to move for some time.
>>
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>>135675409
The pain doesn't stop him at all, the realization of his own death is what numbs his movements.
It's less "this hurts too much to move" and more "well, looks like I'm dead"
Shirou never once gives up from pain.
>>
>>135675409
>servants
They are way stronger than normal humans, the fact that shirou managed so many times to stand against them it's the demonstration that he's quite a good fighter. And with more training he's able to become a servant himself.
>>
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>>135674866
Touma was killed over a million times by Othinus. At some point, he stopped caring about the pain during that rampage.
>>
>>135675600
Saints are also way stornger than humans and touma got beat into blood pulp by one and still managed to beat thor, Also Kamachi said touma should be able to beat saints by now
>>
>>135675617
Getting used to it is a whole lot different than not caring to begin with.
>>
>>135675600
>And with more training he's able to become a servant himself.
With World pact you mean. Prime Shirou without pact is way below Bazett tier
>>
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>>135675588
He had quite some time before Assassin thrown daggers yet he didn't do anything
>>
I'm getting curious about railgun should I read the light novels watch the anime or it is all trash?
>>
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>>135674866
Hes pretty in pain
>>
>>135675884
No, he doesn't. That's not even a page of text before Assassin attacks, and even so, nothing between the two says he cannot move. He doesn't take an action because he has no actions to take. He can't beat a servant in a fight.
>>
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So between Shirou, Shiki and Touma who can take most punishment before dropping?
>>
>>135676304
Depends on determination to succeed.
In terms of sheer numbers, Shiki has the hardiest body there. He'd be "hardest to kill".
In terms of persisting on the brink of death, Shirou has been a walking dead man most, up to and including a deceased machine that still moves.
In terms of persevering despite certain death, Touma has millions on his list.

Pretty much all of them can keep going if you tear their limbs off so long as they're in the state of mind for it. (Shiki has the most vulnerable state of mind; if he's thinking as an ordinary human and doesn't slip into his Nanaya combat state, he goes down extremely fast.)
>>
>>135676304

Which Shiki? Ryougi, Tohno, or SHIKI?
>>
>>135676304
Well, if we're going on mental endurance, it's gotta be Touma.
If we're talking about physical pain and injury, it's Shirou.
If it's how much force they can withstand, I think Shiki would have an edge, since he has the best body of the three.
>>
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>>135676304
Shiki doesnt kill.
>>
>>135676608
>Tohno, or SHIKI
SHIKI is Tohno.
>>
>>135676622
I dunno. When his mind was literally being eroded in HF, Shirou held on pretty well, I'd say.
>>
>>135677117
Well, really depends on which you think is worse mentally. Having your mind eroded away, bit by bit, and of your own volition at that, or going through millions of hells designed by a god to break you.
>>
>>135674663
Thats just helping Toumas Nakama powers
>>
>>135677331
Could Kerry even take his friends hostage? Touma's allies are fucking stacked with all of Saints and Level 5s he knows.
>>
>>135677276
Shirou endured all the evils of the world in Fate when he fought Kirei.
>>
>>135676304
Which Shiki?
If Ryougi or void she probably takes it she bit off her own thumb, killed her arm twice and didn't show much pain.
If Tohno I think he would only lose to Touma... maybe.
>>
Shirou is already living his life correctly. He's won the fight before it ever began.
>>
>>135677605
Archer also endures an eternal nightmare of slaughtering innocents, yet he's pretty rational when summoned.
>>
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Would World Rejecter work on Shirou?
Thread posts: 234
Thread images: 39


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