Rebuild 3.33 is the worst thing to come out of the Evangelion franchise and anyone who likes it is an idiot.
It so severely rapes and trivializes the characters the story has built that the only emotion it should evoke from a sane, healthy human being is disgust and discomfort. Even those who were pandered to in 3.0 has had their entire fandom exposed as shallow wish-fulfillment, through rejecting every solid quality the characters and story once stood for while not building any of it's own.
The barren landscape of 3.0 is also reflected in it's story, characters and plot: an empty, dead void filled only with intense destruction and hatred for what Evangelion is, 3.0 was the desire to rather destroy Evangelion and it's cast than to see it continue in a respectful manner.
To not understand this is to be an idiot. To not acknowledge it is one of two things, to truly hate what Evangelion is or to turn a blind eye to the destruction in favor of pandering.
Those two are one and the same.
To make Rei into a pointless robot, the plot cannot make any sense. It must be violated to make it happen, much in the same way the plot must be violated to make other characters into more fashionable or attractive characters.
Everyone can tell the plot is bad, unless they are pretending otherwise or are just dumb. For the rest of us, who can tell it's bad, what separates us is the ability to tell why it's bad.
The only reason you feel like characters had layers of depth missing is because you have a 26 episode series to draw from. You're obviously going to lose character depth in 1hr30min film. IN that regard you're straight up asking for the impossible.
And no, your waifu being pressed down does not have direct barring on the plot. The story as in just doesn't making any fucking sense. It's that simple.
The only good thing about it is the high quality Asuka art it caused to be produced, which is surprising considering how irrelevant and minimal her screentime was.
And the music.
It's bad because the plot makes no sense and all the characters are total shit. Characters are VERY important in Eva. More-so than the generic sci fi mecha story to most fans.
3.33 has NO development and sidelines every fucking person besides Shinji. Even Kaworu is totally a non-character in it despite being on the poster.
>The only reason you feel like characters had layers of depth missing is because you have a 26 episode series to draw from. You're obviously going to lose character depth in 1hr30min film. IN that regard you're straight up asking for the impossible.
I don't disagree with the sentiment at all, but even for a 1hr30min film, or rather flick, we're lacking depth. Not only that, this isn't "one" movie, it's a continuation of two other movies. So there was depth and foundation to work with. Throwing away that foundation and providing less than any of the two other movies is just as devastating as I suggest it is.
>And no, your waifu being pressed down does not have direct barring on the plot. The story as in just doesn't making any fucking sense. It's that simple.
No need to be snide. I'll just repost this:
>To make Rei into a pointless robot, the plot cannot make any sense. It must be violated to make it happen, much in the same way the plot must be violated to make other characters into more fashionable or attractive characters.
and I want you to address that.
It's designed to do just that though.
Dont skirt around the issue. The shitty plot is tied directly to them pressing down Rei among other things. The plot isnt bad "just because", it has several reasons. Dont dumb it down.
Following on from 2.22 which was bad fanfic tier, all in order to lead up to a punchline where Anno could rip off something from Ultraman, what did anyone expect?
I guess. Asuka always had a lot of drawfags. 2.22 cast her aside pretty fast for Marifaggotry but 3.33 reduced it even further and she still got a lot of art. Guess it's the cute outfits.
>in the series Kaworu only appeared in 1 episode
>now he gets a whole movie plus foreshadowing scenes in the other 2 movies
I had hoped that you'd address my previous post, but oh well: you've misconstrued what I've said. Rather than Rei's depth making or breaking 3.33, the particular plot found in 3.0 exists to negate Rei's depth among other things. Now, I said we could both recognize that 3.33 had a poor plot. But you want to leave it at that, not understanding why the plot is so bad, which makes you no better than the idiots who like it.
Hence we get to why 3.33's plot sucks. 2.22 leaves it at a point where the depth of all characters including Rei's is steadily building. Just like the original, it's ready for more with two more movies AKA double the screentime left.
However 3.33 ended up skipping all of that and rather focused on dehumanizing and trivializing Rei, which wouldn't logically connect with the previous movie. In order to do that, they needed an excuse, which became the timeskip, which became every plot device you can inject into 3.0. It would take just that much to wreck the depth of Rei.
Even the treatment of Shinji and the horrendous characterization of WILLE can actually be sourced directly to the desire to negate Rei, which comes through punishing Shinji for having attempted to save her, a crime in otaku and waifu-land.
The plot ends up sucking because it is wholly focused on pandering to otaku and building a plot for them rather than building a story for it's own sake, to carry a story.
And yet he's even more paper thin in rebuild. I thought they'd flesh him out more or something. The film is about Shinji's angst crisis. Kaworu just kind of exists and gives exposition.
To enhance Kaworu like Rebuild did, they needed to sacrifice Evangelion wholesale. All of 3.0's destruction happened in 3.0, all of it's wrecked characters and destroyed landscaped was created by 3.0.
This guy >>134758579
has some understanding but neglects to acknowledge that Kaworu exists for the sake of boosting his own popularity, to satiate Kaworu fans as well as a counter-weight for characters like Rei.
The point was never to give Kaworu more fleshing out through more screentime, Kaworu was used to displace other characters as well as to make himself look more important, while not being a better character than the original despite being given more screentime.
> 2.22 leaves it at a point where the depth of all characters including Rei's is steadily building. Just like the original, it's ready for more with two more movies AKA double the screentime left.
>However 3.33 ended up skipping all of that and rather focused on dehumanizing and trivializing Rei, which wouldn't logically connect with the previous movie. In order to do that, they needed an excuse, which became the timeskip, which became every plot device you can inject into 3.0. It would take just that much to wreck the depth of Rei.
This, so much this, I dont give a shit about ur waifus, but I do give a shit when they fuck the char depth like a whole. They made sure to build charc on 1 and 2 and just said: Screw all that on 3. I keep wondering why....
They made a whole new imouto character for no reason but otaku. They gave Asuka cat ears for otaku. They made yuri pandering for otaku. Somehow Asuka and Mari are still young and cute for otaku. Asuka is still hot and bothered about Shinji to fuel otaku doujin. They made more Rei service for otaku.
This is not even getting into isolating Shinji completely for the perfect fujoshi doujin fuel. 3.33 is the same shit but with even flatter characters.
>I keep wondering why
Did you really?
Because it should only take five minutes to figure out why. Ask yourself, why would you do this? Who would do this? Who gains something by this?
Seeing this capped reminds me I forgot to mention how it shat over Misato
It's funny how everything bad about how Rebuild turned out can be traced down to waifufaggotry among the writers. Anno could not accept Rei's massive popularity over his own and people like Tsurumaki is no different. Even if you're a huge Asukafag and you're unhappy with Neo-Asuka, you know damned well it's because of Anno's attempt to make Asuka look better through forgetting the original exists. Remove flaws, remove depth, add pandering, that'll patch his insecurity right up.
Kaworu in NGE only had the same roles, though.
>why would you do this?
Keep thinking but... nothing comes in mind other than "I did X plot, and I want to make it works NO MATTER WHAT"
You're not asking yourself the right question or looking at the right situation.
There's something that becomes before "I did X plot". Why he/she did X plot. Just see >>134759022
because that's the answer right there.
>Rebuild 3.33 is the worst thing to come out of the Evangelion franchise and anyone who likes it is an idiot.
I dont give a fuck about your opinion. The movie is bad you dont have to make an essay about it
"I want the people to like X char better than Y?"
I really hope im wrong in this one, because thats the shittiest reason I´ve seem.
>O hey im going to fuck my own show because people are not behaving exactly as I want.
You're not wrong, that's the entire reason really. The more you think about it, it's the only thing 3.33 accomplishes at all. By the end of the movie, the change in popularity is the only thing it has produced.
It is also the only thing Anno has ever said about 3.33, a comment regarding popularity, that his favorite character is getting more popular.
BUT ANON, FOR GODS SAKE.
They didn't think it looked cool, they knew a headless, weakling EVA would be seen as just that, a retarded EVA. That's why they also associated it with Rei, because they want to depopularize Rei.
It's not that bad if you look solely at this single movie, it has good animation, atmosphere, effects and stuff. It's just average.
But as a sequel to rebuilds and continuation of franchise it really is shit. It abandoned everything what was good about Evangelion, shat on plot, made characters shallow and weird, turned Asuka into even more abusive bitch and stripped Rei from all the humanity she earned trough series.
1.11 and 2.22 are still pretty great, even if they aren't as deep as NGE.
What animation is not from the bottom of the barrel of society?
Still as dumb as it was three years ago m8. The other two will always be entertaining and positive as far as making EVA goes. Rebuild 3.33 will always be that shitty one nobody but dumb fanboys like.
Just try arguing otherwise if you want to get shit on.
YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE
IT WAS SAID YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE PANDERING NOT JOIN IT
BRING BALANCE TO EVANGELION, NOT LEAVE IT IN DARKNESS
>Still as dumb as it was three years ago m8.
W-what...? Rebuild happened 3 years ago? Dayum.
Yep, three years. Three years of absolute suckage.
Oh my fucking god, I come back to /a/ after 7 months and there are still faggots like this saying "huurrr if you like eva 3.0 youre not a true evafan Dx"
shut the fuck up you retarded sack of worthless shit
Looks like some 3.33-tard got triggered. How's it feel to have shit taste, you worthless piece of shit?
But in all fairness it's right. If you actually liked 3.33, then you're an idiot.
3.0 looks like absolute garbage with it's shitty 3DCG all over the place and horrendous character designs. Fuck those chins.
Did you see how bad the wunder looked? The ships? Absolutely appalling.
3.0 looks worse than the previous two rebuilds and worse than movies from fucking 2001.
>the only merit a movie has is it's 3dcg
wow not only are you wrong because 3.0 looks really bad and has numerous animation glitches here and there, but it's 3DCGI shitfest with the WILLE fleet was inexcusably bad.
It's not even about me liking or not liking 3.0 or any of the Rebuilds, it's about you having the audacity to go on here and say stupid bullshit like if you like 3.0, you're an idiot. That's it. You like something, you're an idiot.
Fuck off with your ignorant and asinine opinion. I can like whatever the fuck I want and I don't need some pretentious shitlord who thinks of himself as the supreme and true Evafan telling people they're idiots for liking Eva 3.0
Don't you have some Star Was movie to boycott?
I feel ya. This shit isn't Evangelion, it's like a doujin nightmare. I can't believe there's idiots who actually think the movie is anything but trash.
>b-but it had music
I bet if we set some music to their parents getting raped and killed they'd think it was cool as well.
You can like whatever you want for sure anon, it's just that liking some things make you an idiot. Liking 3.0 is the equivalent to admitting that "yes, I am a moron that can't put two and two together".
Because if you could, you wouldn't like 3.0. It's that easy. Doesn't even have anything to do with being a "true eva fan" or not, it's just that you're an idiot.
So calm your tits, sit down and instead of throwing a temper tantrum, actually sit down and think about why the movie is as bad. Plenty of discussion ITT about it. Don't you have some angry blogs to write about how they included black people in star wars and now it's ruined or something? No? Yes? I don't care.
3.0 was ass, and you're an idiot if you liked it. The movie is bad, it's message is atrocious and it's impact on Rebuild and the franchise has been wholly negative except for sating - you guessed it - idiots.
It's a movie whose story, plot and characters are of the lowest quality you can expect for a movie with "limitless budget" according to it's creator.
Calling things like they are isn't being pretentious anon.
>it's just that liking some things make you an idiot.
You're logic is a bit off here. You aren't an idiot for liking a movie, but liking a movie might be evidence that you are an idiot.
Much like there can be strong evidence and weak evidence, in this case the evidence is strong enough to make a very sure claim that the person who likes 3.0 is indeed, an idiot.
Liking an anime or a movie or whatever, isn't like trying to solve a math equation. There is no right or wrong.
Yeah, I know there are flaws with the movie. The biggest being that it derails the entire story arc of the previous two films. Did I care enough that it made me hate the movie? No. Why? Because I took the experience from a different perspective. Why? Because everyone is different. I liked all the new plot elements introduced in the movie. Why? Because it was new, and I wanted more new Eva related stuff, especially when it's incorporated into the core series. 3.0 felt like a new Eva episode, a pseduo-2nd season.
Yes, believe it or not, there are people who like that type of stuff, especially if Eva is their favorite anime series. Does fancy slick new looking action scenes, pretty colors, and new Eva story scenarios appeal to a casual type of consumer want?
Yes, it does. Is there anything inherently wrong with that. No. I liked it, other people liked it, some didn't, some hated it. Can you call it shit? Sure. Calling other people idiots for liking it?
Yeah, about that...
Seems solid to me.
If you arent disgusted by how deeply unserious the movie was, or how much substance it lacked, but like it for the shallow service it provides, then you are admitting to favor cheap gratification over more meaningful elements.
You are then a simpleton, or in other words an idiot like OP suggested.
Yes, a movie that does the exact same thing an anime did in 1995, but actually doing it worse than the original series is THE BEST THING EVER.
>Liking an anime or a movie or whatever, isn't like trying to solve a math equation. There is no right or wrong.
There is, more than you think anyway, but that's besides the point. You can like it or dislike it, but liking 3.0 makes you an idiot. If you feel that means you made a "wrong" decision (because you don't' want to be an idiot) that's another matter.
>No. Why? Because I took the experience from a different perspective. Why? Because everyone is different.
What perspective is this? What does people being different have to do with that? What perspective can you adopt that allows you to ignore the reality of the movie, and why isn't it entirely equatable with delusion and yes, idiocy?
You can say you like it all you want, but all you can muster up are shallow reasons that indeed, make you into a fucking idiot. An idiot that deserves to be told he's an idiot.
There is something inherently wrong with you believing you actually have a "safe-space" and can't be named an idiot for your actions. Parents who don't vaccinate their children because they "have a different perspective" just to have said child die or suffer life-long consequences are in fact, idiots not just people who "can do no right or wrong".
In liking 3.0, you're choosing to be ignorant, you're choosing to be stupid. The reasons for that are all over this thread and probably every sane critique of the movie you've seen a thousand times before.
They can be construed as good because they did some new things in a fairly believable and respectable manner. It's difficult to change something while also remaining on point, and that has merit for 2.22 and 1.11.
Not a Rebuildfag by the way.
You're seriously arguing you're not an idiot for "liking 3.33 because pretty colors and action scenes", while letting the obvious and inescapable fact that Rebuild is raping the story and making a messy nonsensical plot that undermines every single character and development the movie series have made, just fly right by.
How does that NOT make you an idiot? If you're going to endlessly swallow shitty spinoffs, shitty stories, just to sate your glutton for "more evangelion", then yes you actually are an idiot. This turd of a movie called 3.33 doesn't even appeal to casuals, casuals are confused and alienated, even disgusted leaving only idiots (who like pretty colors) and absolute autists such as fujoshi and waifu otaku.
If you like 3.0, it's just because you haven't really accepted it for what it is yet. You can't pretend it's "just more EVA" and not try to understand it crtically, you were born with a brain so use it.
>You're seriously arguing you're not an idiot for "liking 3.33 because pretty colors and action scenes"
I'm just gonna stop you right there.
Wow! What anime these days doesn't depend on pretty colors and action scenes?! Fuck anime then am I right? After all, 90% of anime that has come out since 3.0 is, well, worse or just as shit (by your standards) as 3.0!
You're failing to realize that anime is a hobby, and you fail to acknowledge or realize the components of that hobby. Are you seriously going to go on /a/ and tell the /a/nons who spend hours watching 20 episodes of anime a day, that they are idiots for....liking it? Liking those series?
Real world calling anon
Real world calling anon
Someone who spends their weeks watching 20 anime episodes a day, entirely without thought is an idiot. A singleminded simpleton likely wasting his or her life.
Anime isnt all anime, just like all books arent all books.
Im not naming any other series, only 3.0. Liking 3.0 does make you an idiot for the reasons mentioned earlier.
How did Anno go from one of the best animated films of this decade to the utter shit that is 3.33?
You mean from the hands down worst and most unfaithful product to come out of Eva, 2.22, which pandered to Reifags because of executive meddling, to 3.33, which put the Rebuilds back into position to retell the story of NGE. Everyone who hates 3.33 just won't accept that miscommunication and human failure are some of the most important core themes of Evangelion as a series, and that 3.33 conveys that better than the original series ever did.
There is an extremist faction of fans who are so disgusted by the fact that Rei didn't get her happy ending after 2.22 that they despise everything about 3.33, insisting foolishly that even the incredible animation, art direction, and god tier soundtrack are somehow the worst in the series or even worse than 99% of anime out of petty hatred. They don't care about looking at the movie from an objective standpoint, they have decided to wage a religious jihad against 3.33 and Anno himself as if they are Muslims offended that someone criticized their religion. You are probably one of those people, looking for comfort by finding similar viewpoints on /a/ because, yes, this is a place where similarly desperate Reifags converge and masturbate to a character that they impose their own ideals on without accepting her flaws and weaknesses as well. The funny thing is that, if Rei ever met any of these people, she would see their fake perceptions of her, and reject them for the same reason she rejected Gendo over Shinji.
2.22 is an objectively good movie, 3.33 is an objectively shit movie. That's why 3.33 is so hated. Not everyone wants anno to try and recreate NGE, rebuild is supposed to be different. People loved 2.22 for good reason.
>Everyone who hates 3.33 just won't accept that miscommunication and human failure are some of the most important core themes of Evangelion as a series
Miscommunication was a theme in NGE, but it wasn't executed like it is in 3.33. In NGE, miscommunication occurs due to character genuinely attempting to communicate and failing, or because they didn't want to communicate in the first place. In 3.33, the miscommunication occurs because the characters are at worst being idiots or at best putting their massive, 20 year long project in jeopardy to get petty revenge over something that was only questionably the fault of the person in question. That's why people don't like 3.33, it's an idiot plot.
2.22 is a generic supermecha film that neither brings anything worthwhile to the series nor innovates in the realm of traditional action movies. While the plot of 2.22 is much more appealing to a wider audience than that of NGE or 3.33, that does not necessarily make it a superior film. Its greatest strengths are its soundtrack and art direction, animation quality, etc. which are strong across all three Rebuilds as you would expect from the master. Unfortunately, 2.22 does not remain faithful to the themes of the original series, and suggests that it is okay for Shinji to run away from his anxieties (both social and mortal) because he receives no punishment despite abandoning his friends in their time of need just because he came back to fight Zeruel. This is disingenuous to the themes of the series, as well as to Rebuild's themes overall.
I don't see what makes 3.33 different in that regard. Asuka genuinely tries to communicate with Shinji multiple times over the course of the film, as Kaworu tries to communicate with Shinji and Shinji tries to communicate with Rei Q, all with varying degrees of failure. Simultaneously, Misato and the others clearly don't want to communicate with Shinji how they really feel - even though when it comes to it, Misato can't bring herself to kill Shinji, and Asuka drags him out of the ejected plug at the end instead of abandoning him, which is all the proof you need that neither of them really blame him for what happened regardless of what they might claim.
It seems unfair to argue that all the miscommunications that occur in 3.33 are just due to stupidity on the part of the characters, since it's not as if Asuka and Shinji's total failure to communicate in the original series was particularly intelligent, either. It's not about their plans or if what they're saying is smart or not, it's about these characters' insecurities and anxieties preventing them from saying the things that need to be said for positive growth of relationships between them. It goes without saying that there's enough neuroticism going around in 3.33 for entirely valid reasons - like the world being almost completely destroyed for reasons that just about everyone is at least partially guilty of - to justify all of the failures to communicate.
>It so severely rapes and trivializes the characters the story has built that the only emotion it should evoke from a sane, healthy human being is disgust and discomfort.
2.0 did that too. Only difference was that 3.0 kept you interested
I think it's better that 2.22 steps away from the original series. If I wanted to see the original I would just watch NGE.
>Gay piano scenes
>God tier ost
>Bunch of random bullshit and inconsistent story
Better than than just episodes 7-19 of NGE with added fanfiction and butchering actual plot points
>Asuka genuinely tries to communicate with Shinji multiple times over the course of the film
No, she doesn't. She's being a horribly mean spirited bitch to him.
>Kaworu tries to communicate with Shinji
The only time this communication fails is at the end, when Shinji ignores Kaworu's obvious distress even though it's incredibly out of character for him to do so.
>Simultaneously, Misato and the others clearly don't want to communicate with Shinji how they really feel
Not communicating how they feel is understandable but not communicating the most essential basics of the situation is simply stupid, no matter how you put it.
>since it's not as if Asuka and Shinji's total failure to communicate in the original series was particularly intelligent, either
How so? The reason they don't communicate well is because they're emotionally stunted children in a horrible situation. Makes enough sense to me.
To address you last point, yes, character actions should inform character psychology and the characters themselves. But the story also needs to make sense on a level of actual plot and that's where 3.0 fails the most. It does not make sense for someone like Misato to deliberately sabotage her own mission by making a highly valuable and dangerous asset into a flight risk by failing to explain the basics of the situation and being openly contemptuous to him. Like seriously, take the scene where Asuka breaks a few inches of plexiglas with her bare fists. Why was she allowed into the room in the first place? Is it standard procedure in the military to let angry people threaten prisoners who's mental anguish may lead to everyone's death? Does that make sense at all?
Anno also seems to only view Rei as a static symbol for infantilism/the desire to return to the mother, and is thus the 'wrong choice' for Shinji as a love interest. Similarly, he also seems to view Asuka as her symbolic antithesis, representing reality/the hardships of maintaining a relationship with a 'real' woman.
All of which would be somewhat feasible if they did not waste so much time and effort in attempting to develop Rei into a fully rounded character with an arc (which she was in the TV show at least). And conversely, Asuka's ostensible role as a representation of a 'real' girl is somewhat undermined by her near-perpetual cuntiness and plethora of undiagnosed mental disorders.
Once again, it was never Anno's fault (it never is!), it was them dang dirty immature otakus who simply could not comprehend his 'grand design'.
Rei and Asuka are definitely symbolically antithetical. Everything from their actions to their character design is specifically crafted to this end, in NGE even more so than the Rebuilds. Rebuild creates more symbolic links between the two than NGE ever does.
>2.22 leaves it at a point where the depth of all characters including Rei's is steadily building.
No, it doesn't.
MUH POKA POKA isn't "character depth." It's just filthy neckbeard pandering.
This, people who didn't get 3.33 never got the point of Evangelion and why 2.22 was thematically AGAINST the franchise itself.
I think the show did the theme better, however 3.33 was faithful to its message while 2.22 wasn't.
Don't worry, Anon, I don't mind being an idiot if it means I can have more fun watching it than /a/ apparently had.
I'm just worried the next movie might retroactively ruin this one for me.
This is incorrect: Anno has never praised Asuka's relationship with Shinji, in fact, he is in agreement that their relationship is "kimochi warui" (gross). They may survive together, but they aren't together romantically and never will be for simply clashing personalities. Shinji might be attracted to Asuka, and Asuka to Shinji, but this attraction is mostly a form of validation and sexual comfort than actual romantic feelings. They are using each other without any love.
He never meant them to be a couple.
>He thinks 3.33 isn't worse otaku, commercial bullshit
If they had actually continued in a logical progression, MUH POKA POKA could just have been the start for the development of Rei in a different and more complete way for the next two movies
But then they just literally and physically remove all that so fuck it.
How is 3.0 being more otaku pandering than NGE? NGE has even more swimsuits, nudity, the girls naked flashes lin a screen Shinji watched, heat expansions, confirmed gay sleeping and bathing together, rape scenes, etc. Tbh I can fap to those.
Sounds like you're just salty that Shinji chose best boy over your shitty waifu.
No, I don't care, it's just not an interesting relationship. Kaworu is just perfect and Shinji attaches to him because his life is shit. There's nothing interesting about that.
It works wonderfully as a plot device to destroy your character once and for all but there's not much depth.
It's interesting if you're a little girl or someone who's been in a similar position to Shinji.
That's why Anno and Sadamoto and that welcome to the NHK author guy want to fuck Kaworu in the ass so much. They're all just old man versions of Shinji.
It's not interesting for them, it's just wish fulfillment. Hell, I heavily related to Shinji but realized that wishing for someone like Kaworu is unhealthy because people like that don't exist.
It's interesting for them because it's wish fulfillment.
>people like that don't exist
If you've ever been in love, you'd feel exactly like Shinji does with Kaworu, you'll idealize your partner and find them perfect, blurring out any flaws they may or may not have.
Kaworu isn't actually perfect, Shinji just thinks he is because he's in love.
Same with Kaworu. Kaworu technically finds Shinji perfect, but he really isn't.
They both idealize each other because they are both the first people in their lives that have ever legitimately cared about them, or so they think.
>enjoyed the rebuilds so far
>excited to see where the three friends reunited in a barren landscape will go
>understood 3.33 was meant to completely disregard expectations of weebs and otakus alike
>4.44 will be so unexpected and novel that Anno will once again take his place as king of all that is weeb
Filthy casuals simply couldn't comprehend that their fav show is becoming something greater still. Remind me to laugh at you a year from now when Rebuild is realized for the masterpiece it will be. But please, stay mad about deviations from your own headcanon.
Romantic love is all about idealization, that's why many many couples divorce when the "honeymoon phase" ends, but in case of Kaworu and Shinji they are each other's idea of perfect partners in the real world.
Anno likes to be DEEP and Shinji suffering. So he met his great love but he can't be with him. Similar to Misato and Kaji (the original idea was to make Shinji taste her sense of loss).
Wish fulfillment is not interesting, even for the people whose wishes are being fulfilled.
Also, what you describe is an unhealthy relationship. Yes, people who fall deeply in love ignore their partners flaws for a time but that's an unstable relationship. As time goes on, you have to recognize, understand, and accept the flaws of the people you love, otherwise those flaws will ruin your relationship.
At any rate, the only way in which Kaworu is established as not perfect is in the end of the episode, which could be interpreted as illustrating the point I made above, but before that all of Kaworu's actions cater perfectly to Shinji. I also never got the impression that Kaworu was particularly stunned by Shinji. Shinji hardly says anything of any meaning to Kaworu. Kaworu is just good at catering to the people around him because he can see past their AT Field.
NGE is only as deep as people are fucking stupid. It's really not that hard to understand what happens.
3.0, however, is just intentionally confusing shit. There's nothing wrong with starting in media res and not having everything explicitly explained, but there was no satisfying conclusion to the movie or anything interesting done with the lack of information. In the end, it ultimately just felt pointless and like a big tease for the sequel. I can only hope that 3.0+1.0 wraps it up properly.
You mean it's not interesting to you. But it's interesting to the people who it caters to, such as Anno, that much is objective fact.
>that's an unstable relationship
Yes, and? I was never arguing Kawoshin was healthy.
Though we really don't know what would happen between the two since they were together for such a short time.
But keep in mind that Shinji still continues to love Kaworu ever after he betrays him and is revealed to be an angel. Compare this to Asuka or Misato, who Shinji ignores runs away from and even chokes the former when she wouldn't cater to his demands.
Comparing that to his relationship with Kaworu, it's much heather in retrospect.
Kaworu makes Shinji happy. Shinji makes Kaworu happy. There's more good than bad being gone here.
>particularly stunned by Shinji
He said he loves him and found just his presence to be enough to change his mind about humanity and his orders from SEELE.
You don't see Kaworu meeting up with Misato of any other characters. It's because there's something particular about Shinji that makes him attracted.
And Kaworu was never established as perfect. Misato nor Rei found him perfect, they found him unnerving. He never catered to them either.
It was only Shinji who saw him in that way, and only with Shinji did he act in a certain way.
Look, I can be pandered to as well, but that doesn't mean I intrinsically find those situations interesting. I just like being pandered to. Most people do.
As for the rest of what you say, I would say that Kaworu's presence in Shinji's life is equally as unhealthy as anyone else's presence, just in a different way. Also, the I always thought that the reason Rei and Misato found him odd was because he gave off an aura of inhuman or improbable perfection. This was the thing Shinji was drawn to and the only thing that could have brought Shinji out of his depression for a time, because he didn't want to connect to real people. I always thought this was the purpose of Kaworu's character. This is also why Kaworu is seen as an idealized representation of love in Shinji's mind.
>doesn't mean I intrinsically find those situations interesting
Finding something interesting is defined by it being of interest to you and being able to hold/catch your attention.
Whether you're being pandered to is irrelevant, if you see something, enjoy it, and want to see more of it; than it's interesting to you.
That's the objective definition.
Now whether you personally find it interesting or not is subjective and irrelevant to the people who do.
>just in a different way
I wouldn't call it equal to choking someone by the neck with the intent to kill. Twice. It's really not the same.
>because he gave off an aura of inhuman..
Rei doesn't strike me as the type to be cold to someone who seems inhuman. And Misato never says or implies she finds Kaworu perfect. She sees him talking to himself and thinks he's crazy.
Then at the end of the episode she says he had no will to live so he deserves to die; not anything about perfection.
>didn't want to connect to real people
Yet he considers Kaworu real? So how does this interpretation even work?
>I thought this was the purpose of Kaworu's character
You're free to think whichever way you want, but Anno intentionally made Kaworu to be the Kaji to Shinji's Misato.
Likewise, it's just as 'unhealthy' as Misato and Kaji's relationship is.
>Yet he considers Kaworu real?
The way Kaworu acts is not in any way the way in which regular people act. People do not speak in cliched epithets like Kaworu does, and people do not fall madly in love with meek boys they barely know because of "a fragile heart." Kaworu is Shinji's fantasy; a person who immediately breaks through his facade completely without effort and treats Shinji with affection even though the two don't know each other at all. These are not things that real people in the real world do.
But notice how shocked Shinji was that Kaworu was an angel.
He thought he was a regular person, if not just a little quirky.
Shinji may seem him as a fantasy, as he is his ideal, but once that fantasy is broken and Kaworu betrays his heart and feelings; Shinji still continues to love him. That's the key here.
When Misato, Rei, and Asuka wouldn't help him in his breakdown in EoE; he screamed and blamed them, even chocked and defiled the latter one.
All because they 'betrayed' him.
That's why his relationship with Kaworu is more healthy. He forgives Kaworu and accepts and gets over the pain that their relationship gave him.
He still needed an entire movie to do this with the girls.
Shinji is shocked because he didn't care whether he was human or not. He just happy to have someone who showed him genuine affection.
Also, how is Shinji's reaction to Kaworu's death indicative of a more healthy relationship? It just means that he related to and had less understanding of Kaworu. When he says "He was like me" that's just Shinji projecting himself onto Kaworu. It's because he knows so little about him that he can act like they are the same. Moreover, besides that final betrayal, Shinji had nothing to resent Kaworu for, especially because he needed Shinji to kill him for Shinji's own sake. Shinji had many, many reasons to resent Asuka and Misato.
>he didn't care whether he was human or not
Then why did he get so mad and claimed Kaworu betrayed him? Why did he liken him to his father?
>how is Shinji's reaction indicative of a more healthy relationship?
Because he didn't discard him after Kaworu brought him pain and hurt him. He still continued to love him after the fantasy was broken.
When Asuka hurt him, he discarded her through choking.
>that's just Shinji projecting
So when Shinji says Kaworu is also like ayanami, is he projecting there too? No. Shinji obviously understood something about Kaworu. Because Kaworu, just like Shinji, is starved for love. He's so starved for it, that he makes Shinji the entire reason for his being. The reason why he was born and the reason why he'll discard SEELE's orders and give up his life.
>it's because he knows so little about him that he can act they are the same
Shinji sees himself in Rei, Misato, and then Asuka in EoE. He knows them, he knows Kaworu.
>Shinji had nothing to resent Kaworu for
You're undermining the betrayal. He likens him to his own father for fucks sake. It's a pretty big deal.
>many reasons to resent Misato
Asuka I get. But Misato?
Hedgehogs dilemma and failure to communicate. That's a major theme in Eva and Kaworu and Shinji are no exception to it.
Alright, I guess I can understand this. I would still argue on the healthiness of relationships or Kaworu's humanity, but we're basically arguing in degrees.
As far as Misato though, Shinji definitely has a reason to resent her. Shinji doesn't really think that Misato's affection is genuine or that her taking him into her home was all for his sake. He interprets a lot of what she does as simply being part of her job as commander of the pilots and resents her for that. It's rather subtle but that's why he closes her off when shit gets bad.
I think I said so earlier, but I don't think Kaworu and Shinji's relationship is 100% healthy.
All I ever really argued was that the motives behind Kaworu's character, as Anno says, are to clear the way for Shinji to love himself by first having someone e show he's worthy and love and also be the Kaji to his Misato.
Another neat parallel I just remembered is how Shinji compares Kaworu to his father, and Misato compares Kaji to her father.
And then I said that the dynamic is interesting, maybe not to you, but to many others. Opinions are subjective but it's entirely valid for someone to find Kaworu interesting.
Although I understand that he won't appeal to everybody, so I don't blame you for not liking him or caring about him.
Yeah, he definitely have that conflict with Misato, but I don't think he wholly resented her. After all he cried about her death and held onto her cross and her words. There was a genuine sense of closeness between the two, even if Shinji doubted her at times. He definitely cared for her.
Oh no, he certainly cared for her, he cared for basically everyone he came into contact with on a regular basis. That's why he cares when he think's other's feeling are ingenuine.
>Everyone who hates 3.33 just won't accept that miscommunication and human failure are some of the most important core themes of Evangelion as a series
Nonsense, 3.33 is a failure on the movie level. 3.33 does not deal with miscommunication or human failure, and you're full of it for even suggesting.
>You mean from the hands down worst and most unfaithful product to come out of Eva, 2.22, which pandered to Reifags because of executive meddling, to 3.33, which put the Rebuilds back into position to retell the story of NGE.
Between the two, the more unfaithful product is easily 3.33, and in terms of quality 2.22 trumps 3.33. This is because 2.22 keeps in tone with the original enough to justify it's own deviations. Make no mistake, 2.22 deviates but this is not a bad thing since it can actually back it's deviations up with a plot and well-characterized actors.
You can't pretend however, that shoving in a timeskip for 14 years and abandoning the heavy and realistic characterization of the original is being "faithful" to NGE. Because that's all on 3.33, and your argument just there alone is soundly defeated. It can't ever re-tell any story from NGE due to this, because 3.33 has already deviated too much.
>They don't care about looking at the movie from an objective standpoint
Anon, between you and your strawman, they are the only ones who have actually taken it on an objective level, analyzed it and understood it. Rather the only arguments you have bases itself on pretending fictional characters were real (???) or literally dusting up a jihad.
If you haven't noticed, you are the extremist faction anon. Rebuild 3.33's plot, story and characters were all criminally underperforming even compared to the two previous films, and it's animation or musical score is simply not enough to make up for that. Not only that, you are lying when you say it's better than it's better than "all" other anime, when 3.33 has animation glitches, poor 3DCG and does not compare well with movies in it's class. You are trying to compare it with TV-series from poor studios, which is not only an unfair comparison, but downright dishonest of you to do.
>2.22 is a generic supermecha film that neither brings anything worthwhile to the series nor innovates in the realm of traditional action movies.
This is a strange standpoint, because it brings a lot to Rebuild itself, and Rebuild as a story. You cannot make Evangelion without well-made characters, and Rebuild 2.22 provides more characterization for more characters than any of the three movies. That it contains "supermecha" or is "generic", the latter being just a buzzword with no context, is nothing unknown to Evangelion. In fact, 50% of NGE is roughly monster of the week shenanigans, Evangelion is not known as an original anime in that regard, it's nickname is "the remixed anime" for actually not innovating. However, amidst recreating japanese mecha tropes it actually developed and primed characters.
2.22 did it's part for Rebuild like the first episodes after Ramiel did it's part for NGE.
Your argument is not only flawed, it proves that you are willing to distort truth to favor your pro-3.33 narrative. It can easily be struck down further by pointing out that 3.33 abandons it's share of the duty, innovation and quality development.
Hence why critics refer to 3.33 as a "boring movie", and the audience agrees giving it the lowest rating for an EVA-movie ever.
That, and "miscommunication as a theme" is more of a blanket excuse for when a plot fails and the fanboy zealot can't defend it. In NGE one can argue miscommunication as a theme, because it is frequently brought up and reflected on, and not merely a plot device. 3.33 cannot be said to have miscommunication as a theme or even miscommunication as a cause for failure because there is never any character deep or well made enough to actually have made the attempt at communication in the first place.
Anxieties, fear, viewpoints that differ are things that may cause miscommuncation but are never during the duration of the movie, explored. 2.22 did that part better even.
"MUH POKA POKA" is a buzzword-tier butthurt slander. Remove half of Asuka's development in NGE like that,and you'd be stuck with
"MUH ANTA BAKA", which is pretty much Rebuild's Asuka by the way.
Disgusting fanwanking Kaworufag. Kaworu does not have any character so you fanwank and project onto him.
That Kaworu is lovestarved or the rest of the nonsense you wrote is northing more than that, nonsense. Nonsense with no backing.
Its your inflated fandom that at all makes you defend 3.33, despite its huge flaws and rape of the characters.
3.0 was more likely made for people who hated NGE, and 2.0.
NGE and 2.0 features more serious characters than 3.0, and characters more in tone with the original.
This triggers people like Asuka fans because they hate the original since they just want asuka pandering and shipping.
This is why 3.0 was made, to cater to people who never like EVA in the first place but sought refuge in doujins like ReTake.
Ripping off Ikuhara as well -- a twofer for Anno there.
Kaworu and Shinjis have no dynamic, only pandering.
It is the promise of yaoi material in a high caliber production, which completely betrays the original by making for EVAs most escapist story yet. By having loops and the world resetting, or Kaworu looping they removed consequence from action and made nothing matter since it is all a race for the finish, where it resets with nothing learned.
You are the cancer for invoking waifu wars. Let me inform you that Asukafags and Kaworufags are the only proven cancer since they would abandon all of a story's merits to get pandered to.
The 2.0 production notes show that Asuka appeared in 2.0 as an afterthought, and only because waifufags like Tsurumaki reclaimed some scenes for her from Mari. Anno was too busy wanking over putting Gerry Anderson spaceships into the movie to care.
I'm sorry your waifu looks like a land whale that got smashed in the head with a blue brick.
Actually, you should be apologizing to me for burning my poor Virgin eyes that had to gaze at the ugliest thing in existence, Rei.
I thought bad-ass asuka in 3.0 was pretty cool.
That's about it really
Tsurumaki and Anno are both Asukafags who are both on record saying so.
Anno and Tsurumaki actually stands foe the biggest asukafaggy thing in 2.22, which is rewriting Asuka to be a nicer person.
>bringing up rebuild in a conversation about NGE
>replying to posts from hours ago in an almost dead thread
I know who you are.
>Posters supporting 3.0 only has one counter, attacking Rei or Rei fans
Is there any doubt whatsoever that 3.0 fans are petty otaku who hate NGE and Rei? Their responses so far have only validated the OP
Me and that anon were actually having a pretty peaceful and nice conversation about NGE a while back, and we concluded on a happy note.
Not sure why you replied hours later harking about 3.0, but I won't question it.
Because of the OP maybe? Rather it was you who twisted the subject.
Moreover you are resorting to ad hominem because you got shut down.
Either accept that you are wrong or leave quietly.
It's not just the fanbase, the trolls who hate her are just as cancerous.
I don't remember getting shut down or twisting anything.
Our conversation was fairly constructive and pleasant. Maybe you should take some pointers from it?
But you bring up Kaworu the most in these threads, Reifag. You're obsessed.
What is your opinion on mods knowing which posts come from your IP in a thread? And how frequent and blatant your samefagging is?
Don't you find it kind of embarrassing? Do you think the mods laugh at you?
I've always felt bad for Shinji since the original series, and 3.33 only reaffirmed my opinion that everyone else are massive assholes that can't separate the manipulated from the manipulators.
Because it's an easy plot device to add to any character. It's a way to show a character has been damaged by some event without any actual lasting damage.
If you had someone lose an actual limb that has implications as to how you animate, how they react to events and so forth.
In real life, losing an eye is actually a pretty big fucking deal. You lose a lot of vision and all of your depth perception.
Of course, those limitations are completely irrelevant in anime because they can be easily ignored.
If I was switching topics then I'm pretty sure the anon would have told me. Why didn't he tell me if that was what I was doing?
And more importantly how exactly are you related to our conversation, again?
You cant be the OP because your post flagged as a new IP earlier.
I also know that Kaworufags lie and cheat like this to avoid real discussion.
Whats wrong with you? Do you have mental health issues?
what dissapointed me most is that in 1.0 and 2.0 you could compare it to the main series, evaluate how much the left out things affect the characters, their interaction, how subtle differences have major effects on how they stand to each other, and I wanted to see how it plays out
then 3.0 comes along and everything just goes full retard
you could watch 3.0 without watching anything else before, his obsession with a strange girl will be just as pathetic as before, and kaworu will appear just as gay, nothing matters anymore
How did I shit the thread up?
You responded to a conversation that was over hours ago, and so I questioned why you did and then you dropped your tuna sandwich all over the thread.
Still shitting the thread up with meta I see.
The thread had gone on foe hours before your shitposting ass arrived. Unable to deal with the topic at a mature level, you commenced shitposting.
SHINJI WAS A GOOD BOY
HE DIN DOO NUFFIN
I seriously think Hideaki knows what he is doing with this, and is deliberately making it awful. Fans wont to obsessing over the series, so he's destroying it so they are forced to move on.
Dude, you're just aggrieved that your waifu didn't follow an easy, undemanding simplistic "development arc" to your kawaii fantasy.
It doesn't make any sense to moan about "development" anyway. Rei Q is a different character altogether, this was clearly and unambiguously established.
Nah. If anything you are a butthurt fanboy incapable of addressing the topic maturely. Because only a butthurt fanboy would dishonestly argue that there isnt a problem with reducing characters.
Since you have no objective argument, consider yourself proof that everyone who dismisses 3.0 is right in doing so.
2.22 was doing fine until they skipped episode 16 and the first mindfucks of Shinji exploring his trauma of missing his mother and Asuka's pride being shattered as she lose the no 1. place to Shinji. I'm not even mentioning how good was to the plot Touji actually almost being killed on the series and how changing Asuka to be the pilot of Eva 03 fucked up every possible char development of both herself and Shinji afterwards. 2.22 was kinda generic but still a good movie for the first 2/3 parts, then it completely ruined everything as it skip one of the most important and turnpoints episodes of the series: Episode 16, and fucked up the climax of the series, episode 19.
I'm not a Reifag, I loved how Reitards got buttmad with Rebuild 3.33 but you just went full retard. 3.33 is bad because it simply skips all the deep char development of episodes 16, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 and 24 and also completely ruins the plot by introducing a retarded 14 years timeskip and not explaining SHIT how things got the way they did.
The preview after 2.22 was awesome, and the fact the actual 3.33 movie had almost nothing to do with the preview was a completely blow. It'll need a miracle to fix this shit and explain all the 14 year timeskip with only one more "sequel" movie.
3.33 It's a terrible movie for all fanbases with the sole exception of Kaworutards, no one else.
That picture makes me feel so hard
>yfw share earphones with your childhood bro under the night skies, no homo
While I really like 3.0, I need to wait to watch FINAL to see if 3.0 was a well-done move or not.
I feel like all the people saying 3.0 is shit forgot there was 14 years skip between 2.0 and 3.0, 14 years can do a lot for people, it's obvious they would be different. But again, we need to wait to watch the final movie to really see the effects of the third movie playing out. The fanbase is reacting the same as when the original NGE finished, angry and confused, with no explanation, with just Shinji's thoughts and the final psychological analysis to make some sense out of the whole thing, now we have a time skip filled with questions and two guys playing piano while they talk about their philosophy in life, now let's hope the final movie even comes close to what EoE did.
If the fourth movie doesn't solve things, them fuck 3.0, and the rest of the rebuilds.
As bad as I agree 3.33 was, I still plan on finishing this old project of mine of converting 3.33 to its pointless 2.35 aspect ratio to 1.77 like the other two movies.
I like the animation. It clearly improved compared to the other two. I get the chills when I see people using angels to enable flight.
Plot-wise, it's ok, as good as 1.0.
I definitely like Kaworu more than in the TV series.
I'm still waiting for 4.0 to see how Anno decide to move on from this.
The problem with the action scenes in 3.0 is that there's no stakes to them. I was always very confused by what people were fighting, what threat the things they were fighting posed, and what exactly they were fighting over. At least in 2.0 there was a pretty clear reason to care about what was going on.
After 2.22 I thought this could go in interesting directions. After 3.33 the rebuild series was dead to me. I'll still watch 4.44 when it comes out because I can't stand leaving anything unfinished, but I don't expect anything.
I think that answers itself. It's not really acceptable for a four-parter movie made by the original creator which has no problems with funding or time to be that bad. Yes, Rei and Shinji are still the only "decent" people left, but what does that mean when everything else is shallow and pure pandering? Not to mention the emotional impact of seeing the only two characters that are "nice" being abused, trashed or looked down upon just to enable pander to people who hate those characters.
It's not OK for Rebuild to be this bad.
Then finally let's view this from the perspective of Reifags with the history Evangelion has had since the 90's. Previously Asuka fans and other assorted "opponents" of Rei in the big popularity game have always claimed their favorite was good because of the character's depth and quality. By also leaning on Anno's post-Eva anti-Rei rhetoric over the years, they've tried to paint Rei as inferior by for instance as lying about the character or demanding that it's on the level of a sex-toy. It's an indignation in itself, but then what happens when 3.0 is released?
The characters of Asuka and the rest, who had a lot of things to develop are now reduced to mere sex-appeal characters, generic villains. Their characters and development are effectively gone, and their screentime consists of them being mouthpieces that do little else but assert some sort of superiority (over Shinji and Rei). There's no development whatsoever for these characters, no introspection or anything. Even the more lighthearted Rebuild movie, 2.22, had more introspection.
3.33 is the shallow fan's and Rei-haters wet dream come true.
This means that Asuka fans and the other fans who dislike Rei and previously championed the depth of Evangelion would abandon those claims the instant they were served pandering and shallow fanservice. Their arguments and viewpoints were all lies to cover for their own insecurity. That's aggravating.
>2.22 was doing fine until they skipped episode 16 and the first mindfucks of Shinji exploring his trauma of missing his mother and Asuka's pride being shattered as she lose the no 1. place to Shinji. I'm not even mentioning how good was to the plot Touji actually almost being killed on the series and how changing Asuka to be the pilot of Eva 03 fucked up every possible char development of both herself and Shinji afterwards.
2.22 never skipped those parts. 3.33 did. All of the mindfucky parts of Evangelion takes place in the second half. Roughly as a four parter, the flow of Evangelion was followed in Rebuild until 3.33.
In the first part, episodes one to six roughly, we are introduced to the core characters and the setting. It's light hearted and oppressive at the same time. We see Shinji tumble with Misato for laughs, and we see him freak out.
In the second part, episodes seven to thirteen, we enter a time of lighthearted action, comic gags and generic monster of the week escapades. Shinji does lose his mind or fear, we fight Angels with dance routines, jump into volcanoes or laugh at Gendo cooling his feet in a bucket.
In the third part, episodes thirteen to 19, we delve into the characters and flesh them out. This begins with the recap episode which sets the stage, and continues with Rei's internal monologue. From thereon, the mindfucks start, and this is where character backgrounds seriously start getting foreshadowed. This is where the characters mature and become something more than cliches.
In the fourth part, from 20 and till the End, we set the stage for depression, loss and further introspection. The dark secrets are revealed, the characters slow progress into oblivion completes. Character arcs who were built by the three previous parts can now complete.
Rebuild was until 3.33, very much on point. 1.11 introduces, 2.22 develops and entertains. But 3.33 failed to take responsibility for it's characters the way NGE did.
Instead, 3.33 chose to abandon characterization, to abandon development, and to merely attack, debase or glorify it's characters, the only existing criteria for that selection being the director's own favorites. As a result, the plot had to be rewritten, character backstories had to be erased, and we needed the characters to act as friendly to the new narrative as possible. The latter meant that Misato had to look cool but hate Shinji, for instance.
This is undeniable evidence that cannot be looked away from.
Because of 3.33, and 3.33 ONLY, 4.0 will not have the solid characters the fourth part of Evangelion once had. We will begin 4.0 with "Shikinami", "Rei Q", "Misato" and quite frankly, who really cares who the rest are at this point? Having one scene with a frown or a dialogue does not a character make. We will begin 4.0 with a plot that makes no sense and will require massive patching just to justify the most basic of elements such as the characterization of the previous movie.
When 3.33 abandoned 2.22 and 1.11, arguably retconning the sequel's ending, and also didn't include the parts in latter Evangelion, it was the movie that skipped episode 16 and onwwards.
There would be no better time in all of Rebuild to include Leliel, Asuka slowly losing it, Shinji dealing with absorption, Misato discovering the "truth" about NERV, and for sports because it fits, Rei's monologue.
Instead, the Kaworu/Asuka-pandering, Anti-Rei/Shinji and entirely anti-Evangelion movie called 3.33 was made. Even Kaworu, who now has his "episode" expanded from 20 minutes to 90 whopping minutes, is now a LESSER character than before, only being more pandered. Yet Kaworufags cheer for that, and like >>134794169
shows even Asukafags loved it, despite knowing it's a bad movie.
Asuka was always a bitter cunt, and Kaworu always went full retard.
Difference is, both of the two above get away with literally everything while Rei gets stuck inside a capsule for the rest to poke fun of.
>While I really like 3.0, I need to wait to watch FINAL to see if 3.0 was a well-done move or not.
Why? It's not like anything about 3.0 changes.
It's not that people aren't aware that there's 14 years inbetween the two. It's the problem.
> The fanbase is reacting the same as when the original NGE finished, angry and confused,
The Rebuilds were bad from 2 onwards.
Things went wrong the moment Mari was introduced. Characters had their entire arcs and personalities gutted, scenes were simplified or made overly flashy and obvious, people that previously were important to the story, like Kaji, became superfluous...
2 wasn't total shit, but it was excessively mediocre, and should have basically been a red light for anyone with high expectations of 3.
I don't know why people think 1.0 was acceptable or represented any amount of promise. It's literally the first 6 episodes with new animation. It's utterly pointless and a perfect sign of a team who has no idea what they are doing or where they are going with this new story. Or it shows that they are just rehashing old shit for money.
To be fair, Anno wanted to shake the status quo since 1.0 by introducing Kaworu early and focusing on Shinji, Kaworu and Rei on the pilot side and Gendo and Misato on the adult side but Otsuki thought that would alienated the fanbase so he insisted with making the first 6 episodes but with new animation. Also, Otsuki was the one who insisted with having a new female pilot for merch purposes
Not saying Anno didn't fuck up but he had some help
This. People excsue the utter mediocrity of the second movie simply because it was a more comfortable watching experience for them personally.
All the flaws present in 3.0 were already there in 2.0: terrible pacing, overuse of CGI, idiotic plot developments (Vatican Treaty), shallow characterizations, the list goes on.
And please, stop with the fucking bullshit about 2.0 being the equivalent of the lighthearted part of NGE. By the midpoint of the film, Unit-01 is gutting Unit-03 as Shinji screams for Gendo to stop, and it all ends with Rei body horror and Third Impact. Lighthearted arc my ass.
The updated Ramiel was worth the entry price; but as soon as that set piece was over, then it rapidly slid in the direction of every N+1th child fanfic that you back-buttoned out of in days gone by. And even before that, it was clear it was just going to be a perfunctory remake at best.
Shinji's talented at denial, he wouldn't believe it wasn't Rei unless they could put a rack of her severed heads in front of him. And then he might still go with her because his SDAT came back and nobody at Wille has any interest in what that might indicate.
>he wouldn't believe it wasn't Rei unless they could put a rack of her severed heads in front of him.
Be that as it may, they could have at least fucking TRIED to tell him instead of being actively aggressive toward him.
>is the worst thing to come out of the Evangelion franchise
Nah, that would still be Shinji Ikari Raising Project.
2 was entirely fine. The Vatican Treaty is a believable and working plot element (not as much a plot development)
It's entirely realistic for the world governments to manage and question resources spent by the UN.
Moreover, seeing it context with SEELE, it's the perfect control measure against NERV.
The characterizations are all realistic and in tone, albeit being different than NGE.
Cutting the "fat" from NGE was a success because even though what you said about 2.0 having darker elements than NGE had early on is true, no one who hates the movie acknowledges that because they are too occupied with pretending it's all happy.
Both of you have no real arguments.
I expect the last movie would have introduced details that made it more reasonable in hindsight. Like the spear was removed before he was sent to space, he wasn't just sealed for the timeskip but still has no memory of Unit 01's core, and Wille are concerned about him being something that only resembles Ikari Shinji, there's room left for him to have been more active than dream for 14 years.
>Shinji's talented at denial, he wouldn't believe it wasn't Rei unless they could put a rack of her severed heads in front of him
Conjecture. The only one talented at denial here is you, it stands to reason he'd believe them. He starts out trusting of all of them, a trust they manage to break within minutes.
So even in the case he wouldn't believe them, it would not be because of Shinji but because they made themselves into untrustworthy figures.
Even if he had done something else, how does that make their actions more reasonable? It's evident that Shinji has no memory of doing anything bad, and it seems that Willie fears him getting into enemy hands, so why would they make him more likely to flee?
Rebuild right now is an incomplete story, you can't judge it as it is.
Just like how you can't judge NGE by stopping at just episode 16 or something.
People always ask when does NGE get good because they find the first half boring, and people tell them to watch the whole thing before they judge it.
Rebuild is no different.
NOPE. If we dropped the story at episode 16 in NGE, we'd still have sixteen episodes worth of consistently developed characters with a continuously improving setting and storyline.
In Rebuild 3.33, we have a timeskip that nullifies any consistent development and a setting that destroys itself rather than building itself as in NGE. 3.33 is a boring flick that goes nowhere, where NGE's equivalent part kept improving itself while also realistically escalating itself.
Stop being a 3.33 apologist. Grow up and accept it for what it was, an otaku pandering movie and a disaster for Rebuild.
...It cut the fat from NGE by adding superfluous characters, removing entire character arcs, and replacing them with overwrought CG?
That's the opposite of cutting fat. It added fat. It took away actual substance in favour of "ooohhhhh who's this look how special this new person is!" and "hey, rather than have the meeting between two pilots be an interesting encounter that will define their relationship going forward, let's just have a random contextless battle scene nobody cares about!"
The characterizations aren't realistic, they're shallow. They're the surface of NGE's characters. All nuance and depth is removed and replaced with flashy shit and some new girl nobody really cares about.
No, because basically every episode of NGE has it's own cohesive plot arc and storyline that is resolved by the end in some way. Yes, there's plenty of foreshadowing and loose plot threads, but that's what happens in television. You expect that, because you know there's going to be another episode in a week.
You don't expect that so much in a series of films. Yes, there's connecting plot between the films, but usually films don't leave massive sections of their plot unexplained. Also, the massive wait time between films is inevitably going to lower people's opinion as pieces of plot go unexplained for longer and longer periods of time.
3.0 is also just a bad film on the most basic level, but I think most people understand that by now.
This isn't really correct.
Cut NGE off at ep 16, and what do you have? You have sixteen episodes of continual, nuanced character arcs and consistently progressing plot. In Rebuild we have a bunch of extremely shallow characters that essentially ape the most obvious aspects of their predecessors, a story that SURPRISE SKIPS way ahead of all the ongoing foreshadowing into something totally different, and a third film that pretty much goes nowhere. We also have an incredible sterility to everything in comparison to the original - the use of music, silence, gore and implication that made the first series amazing and horrific to watch is gone, replaced with overemotional drivel that relies of swooning music and tomato-ketchup bloodspray. Kaworu's headsplosion is one of the most cringe-inducingly overwrought attempts at emotional resonance I've ever seen, for example.
Rebuild, on its own, is not too awful. But it is so, so, so lacking compared to NGE.
I was going to explain why but there's two posts here telling it like it is:
3.0 really was as much as a shitfest as people say it is. How do I know this? Because every one of your arguments are more or less dressed up lies and can be proved wrong super easily.
So stop lying to yourselves.
>...It cut the fat from NGE by adding
Adding? We're talking about cutting, not adding. Your point is moot.
It cut among other things, the more lighthearted and cheesy scenes from the original, along with much of the fanservice. There is no scene as cheesy in 2.22 or 1.11 like the scene where Shinji gets a boner at the hot springs and the joke is that it "expanded". Not only that from that cheesy embarrassing moment you'd never want to watch anywhere but in complete solitude, it makes the leap to briefly mentioning Asuka's "dark past".
From a boner-joke straight to childhood trauma. Jesus christ, that's fat we could cut in good conscience.
>The characterizations aren't realistic, they're shallow.
How so? The characters are built from zero into a character that can go forward, and the characters from 1.0 also progress. There is no more character in all of Rebuild for characters like Asuka, for instance, considering 3.33 only pandered.
There's nothing shallow or unrealistic about them, they all feel and seem like teenagers, a bit troubled, but that's normal for teenagers.
>All nuance and depth is removed
Objectively wrong, because 2.22 is making them from scratch and quite literally, can't remove anything it hasn't added yet. Only 3.33 removes depth coming from 2.22.
All in all you're wrong anon.
No, a third one even popped in as I wrote my reply. You shouldn't defend 3.0 because of your crappy waifu anon. It was a bad movie. Even working with your dumb premise of cutting NGE at 16 (more accurate would be 19), those 16 episodes are still consistent.
Wow, how desperate. I can sleep tight and sound knowing those posts belong to others, while you got so defeated by people telling you why you were wrong you could only claim samefag in defense.
>2.22 never skipped those parts.
Yes, it did skip episode 16 which has an important mindfuck of Shinji. And episode 15, while not having proper mindfuck, was very important for further developing Misato and Kaji. Rewatch them both and refresh your memory.
Why are you still doing it?
Also, don't you find it sad that you're always the only one defending Rei so intensely in these threads? And bashing on 3.0?
Doesn't you being the only one who does this prove your opinion is in the minority?
Since you're the only one who cares about Rei to this extent, doesn't that mean that Rei is not a character worth caring so much over? Since no one goes to such lengths to defend her besides you.
I was the one talking to the Kaworufag last night, he seemed like a pretty reasonable guy to me.
>He thinks I'm a Reifag
>The Vatican Treaty is a believable and working plot element (not as much a plot development)
The Vatican Treaty led to a situation where a perfectly fine, working Eva (Unit-02) was sealed off, while another unit (Unit-00) that was under repairs was left on the roster, all the while Unit-03 was being set up to get transported to Japan. In short, Nerv put itself in the most tactically disadvantegous situation imaginable under the cicrumstances, while still having mor than three Evas in on place.
As for SEELE, what they want or don't want is even more nebulous than it ever was in the TV series, so pointing to them is uselss. 3.0 didn't expand on their motives? Neither did 2.0. It's not set in stone what has to occur in which movie. Don't automatically give a pass for 2.0's crappy worldbuilding just because 3.0 was even worse.
>The characterizations are all realistic and in tone
Realistic is a bizarre choice of word here, and being in tone in an otherwise dull movie is not much of an accolade.
>Cutting the fat....
What you wrote her does not in any way address the actaul argument: giving a pass for 2.0 shortcomings because it corresponds to the lighthearted parts of NGE is not okay, since this is just not ture.
Hey Kaworufag, just fuck off. The only times this thread was decent was when you were out sucking dick during the night or something.
If you want to play, you have to play nicely and not give your fellow landwhales a bad reputation.
>along with much of the fanservice.
Yeah, okay, that entire sequence with Asuka's new plugsuit totally wasn't meaningless fanservice.
>the scene where Shinji gets a boner at the hot springs and the joke is that it "expanded". Not only that from that cheesy embarrassing moment you'd never want to watch anywhere but in complete solitude, it makes the leap to briefly mentioning Asuka's "dark past".
That scene goes far further to develop the characters involved and endear the audience to them then "lol look at Asuka's skimpy new plugsuit".
>all your other points
So you're saying nothing was removed because there was nothing in the first place? Nice, I'm glad we're in agreement that 2 was incredibly shallow and didn't bother to develop any of its characters at all.
That said, considering that this story has been told before, telling it again with less characterization and nuance is indeed removing stuff.
The Rebuilds removed everything important and added fluff in return.
It's two different people, but the Reifag obviously likes to pull the hurr kaworufag boogeyman
Related to this thread, I'm also disapointed with rebuild.
While working on color correcting the director's cut, I decided to try and cut up an old idea of mine: Doing a proper "Rebuild" or "Death". I made a "trilogy':
1st movie: 2h07m lenght: Cut up episodes 1-6 (excluding a couple of slow redundat scenes from episode 03 and 04) and completely substituted episode 06 wich has hideous animation (the worse of the entire series) for the Operation Yashima from rebuild 1.11 while excluding the scenes that hurts the plot (like two takes that show the red sea, as well as a dialogue of gendou with fuyutsuki and Misato Showing Lillith to Shinji).
2nd movie: 2h33m Episodes 7-16 as a second movie, starting with the SoL scene of Shinji and Asuka eating breakfast together and finishing with the berserk of Unit 01 exploding out of Bardiel, (Excluded the recap episode and shortening a little episode 11 and 13)
3rd movie: 3h04m: Episodes 17-24, shortening episodes 17 and 18 but keeping episodes 21-24 intacts. The movie ends with Kaworu's head falling on the LCL (cuts the final Misato + Shinji dialogue).
I also shifted some scenes here and there to make the thing more fluid.
End result was surprisingly cohesive, I really liked it, Still, syncing the subs will be a pain, but if anyone is interested I could do a quick 720p encode and share with you guys.
>The Vatican Treaty led to a situation where a perfectly fine, working Eva (Unit-02) was sealed off, while another unit (Unit-00) that was under repairs was left on the roster, all the while Unit-03 was being set up to get transported to Japan. In short, Nerv put itself in the most tactically disadvantegous situation imaginable under the cicrumstances, while still having mor than three Evas in on place.
I'm sorry to say anon, but you didn't pay attention. This is actually shown and explained within the movie, but since you're so caught up in making up reasons for why it's "also bad", you probably missed that.
It's SEELE's decision. NERV, and Gendo, is entirely aware that it's not a good idea. They are forcing the EVA onto Gendo. This is shown in a scene in 2.0 where Gendo explains he'd rather repair up EVA00. Moreover, pressure from the international scene also makes it easier for them to pull off, because of the incident in America where the EVA exploded. It's a hot potato.
>As for SEELE, what they want or don't want is even more nebulous than it ever was in the TV series
Not in this case, since they claim it clear, and what they want is as detailed as it was in the TV-series by the end of the first half.
>3.0 didn't expand on their motives? Neither did 2.0.
It did, scenes on the moon and also the aforementioned. They are barely even present in 3.0, and only replays a recording outta EoE.
>Realistic is a bizarre choice of word here, and being in tone in an otherwise dull movie is not much of an accolade.
This isn't an argument. Why is it bizarre? You don't have anything.
>What you wrote her does not in any way address the actaul argumen
No, that goes for you. Not letting you sneak away, we talked about cutting, and you tried to sneak past that. I corrected you, and you had better reply rather than deflect.
>Shinji and Asuka eating breakfast
I meant to say, Shinji and MISATO eating breakfast. This scene.
What did you find wrong with the original Death+Rebuild? I thought it was fine.
Honestly I don't think Rebuild should've been a recap, we already have the previous movie for that.
Either make it something new or don't do it at all.
How about you re-watch episode 16 and 2:22?
Yes the most important char developed scenes are from episode 20-24, which should have appeared on 3.33, I agree, but 2.22 also skip a small "Intro" of the char developments that were deepen on the original series, for fuck sake. Even so, I'd agree it was some acceptable cuts, even tough it's on episode 16 we learn about Shinji's mother being on Unit 01, if 3.33 wasn't a completely piece of shit that lacked all the greatness of episodes 20-24.
I mean, that's not what I want from Rebuild. I would just rather in not exist at all.
As far as your recut is concerned I definitely wouldn't cut parts of 1.11 in with NGE. Sure, Ramiel might not look great in the original but cutting in footage from the new films is far more jarring.
But yeah, I guess I'd be interested in seeing it, but please wait until you finish the Blu-Ray encodes if it's going to take up a lot of time. I would much rather have those.
>Yeah, okay, that entire sequence with Asuka's new plugsuit totally wasn't meaningless fanservice.
It has fanservice. Just like NGE, only less of it.
>That scene goes far further to develop the characters involved and endear the audience to them then "lol look at Asuka's skimpy new plugsuit".
No, because there's more development in Asuka's skimpy plugsuit scene, courtesy of her actual, fleshed out talk with Misato that wasn't just
>Asuka: u kno about my dark past rite
>Misato: yah, but it's in the past
>So you're saying nothing was removed because there was nothing in the first place?
No. I'm saying they weren't removed because it's far too early to have those elements, consider how retarded it would be to darken Asuka's character in the same movie she's introduced. It doesn't work.
Their rightful place was in 3.33. It was the only place it could have been and not have ruined the entire story.
Well, you can't really show Death to someone and say: "just watch Death and EoE, you don't need to watch the series" now, can you? And even if you wanted to "re-watch" and recall the series, It is not even suitable for that either, it's kinda of a "memorabilia" movie that was made mostly as a filler for the incomplete First half of Air (Rebirth) wich is only 20 minutes and couldn't really be premiered as a full-length movie back in 1997.
Originally I wanted Rebuild to be something considerable different instead of just an "reanimated" theater version, In the end it failed as both: You can't tell people to just watch the rebuild and skip the series, and watching rebuild as an old Eva fan is not really that much of a new experiece (for 1.11-2.22) and is a completely disapointment for episode 3.33
This is why a more condensed and serious edition of the original series, was an interesting idea. Watching a couple of cohesive 2 hour movie with the improved animation of Operation Yashima was a great experience for me instead of just rewatching the 6 original episodes of the series. You guys should try. I could upload to Mega if anyone is interested.
Nah, Reiheart is actually sane and thinks 4.0 can salvage Rebuild.
He also doesn't spend all his time bashing on Asuka out of jealously.
Eh, it's been some time but the Vatican Treaty is imposed on NERV to control them. That's what happens, nobody gives a shit about EVA02 or some teenaged bitch named Asuka from the PoV of someone sitting in an office somewhere.
They need to test EVA03, SEELE needs to rein in on Gendo, it's decided. It's to keep NERV from revolting or seceding from SEELE, which is a darned reasonable move that should have been in the original as well.
Was easy enough to understand for me.
>It has fanservice. Just like NGE, only less of it.
Proportionally it has a lot more, actually.
>No, because there's more development in Asuka's skimpy plugsuit scene, courtesy of her actual, fleshed out talk with Misato that wasn't just
It was even less than that. And it never went anywhere beyond it.
>No. I'm saying they weren't removed because it's far too early to have those elements, consider how retarded it would be to darken Asuka's character in the same movie she's introduced. It doesn't work.
This isn't darkening. It's fleshing. Asuka in NGE was more fleshed out by the end of her first appearance than Asuka by the time of the third Rebuild. Fleshing out and 'darkening' a character are not the same shit. Here it's the difference between a nuanced character and stereotypical tsundere that acts like a parody of the original.
Is Gendo even trying to subvert Seele in Rebuild? He accepted Yui's proposal to become 01's control system, so she's not his motive, and Ikari is his family. Not shown what that means for the Seele connection and if it's supposed to be his legacy now but apparently Yui wasn't of such higher status anymore that he took her name.
>hey guys, I know they didn't properly develop any of the characters in 2.22, but they'll do it in 3.33! the movies have just got to have different pacing!
Then 3.33 happens, and:
>hey guys, I know they didn't properly develop any of the characters in 3.33, but they'll do it in 4.44! the movies have just got to have different pacing!
Yeah, sure guys.
Well, yeah, the style of Rebuild, being digital as well as the fact of being widescreen and having cgi don't go very well with the original series, I agree It kinda feels like an akward frankestein joining then together, however, one of the few good things that made me like Rebuild 1.11 was the the epicness of Operation Yamashita. Animation from episode 06 is just HIDEOUS. It hurts my eyes to watch it. the final third of 1.11 fits perfectly plot-wise with episodes 1-5, I have already watched It and find it to be cohesive if you get used with the transition.
It's not like a true frankestein, like cuting and pasting 6 second shots of animation from the rebuild trimmed with other older animations every couple of scenes, that would have been horrible, indeed. Only the final 36 minutes of the first movie are changed. You get used to it some minutes in, specially if I add some fake grain to the thing and do some "film" grading for it to merge better. (that would take some considerable time, don't worry, I'm not doing it before finishing the batch. I also plan on switch all the graphics showing "6th Angel" to "5th angel" on after effects)
Now, I haven't spent much time doing these rough initial cuts, about 2 hours on each one and they are already pretty cohesive. Color correcting episode 1-2, 8 and 22 for the batch took much more time, over 5 hours each episode, so far. Even so, redoing the portuguese subtitles alone will still take even more time, I have barely half done by now.
The 3 compilations movies I did are already done, encoding them would only take one extra nigh, I still plan on releasing the batch before the third impact and it is, indeed, my first priority.
I still don't have a name for it, I thought of "Reborn" for now, but sounds a little pretentious.
>Proportionally it has a lot more, actually.
Not really, since even the skimpy plugsuit scene is 90% talk, 10% fanservice, whilst the NGE equivalent is 10% talk, 90% fanservice.
In terms of quantity, and in terms of what was cut, that is removed, it has less.
>It was even less than that. And it never went anywhere beyond it.
Which are you referring to? Because Asuka's talk with Misato goes far more in depth than the equivalent in NGE.
>This isn't darkening. It's fleshing. Asuka in NGE was more fleshed out by the end of her first appearance than Asuka by the time of the third Rebuild.
Absolutely wrong, but only true if you consider just 3.33.
Asuka in the start isn't very well fleshed out in NGE. It's a fact, there's little known about the characters past, it's motivations, and it has no development. Asuka's development regarding herself and her outlook on her own ability in Rebuild is in fact, development.
You might not like it or pretend it wasn't there, but it was, while it was absent in NGE. In NGE, Asuka was static for the entire first half as a character.
You also misunderstand what is meant by "darkening", because the "fleshing out" that comes in NGE later is dark in nature and therefore in NGE, comes later. You need some light to juxtapose with the dark.
NGE did great by allowing Asuka to remain shallow and carefree in the beginning, to crush her into the half-corpse she is by the end of the series.
Rebuild was following in the original's footsteps, until 3.33 said "stop" and provided pandering.
This is fact.
I would appreciate it if you would do one with the original NGE footage and another with the 1.11 footage. You're making it though, so it's your call.
Also, Reborn sounds fine. It's going to sound kinda dumb in almost any case.
>In NGE, Asuka was static for the entire first half as a character.
Entirely incorrect. We start to see the core components of her character slowly being revealed immediately, and the beginnings of her descent are planted in even in her very first appearance.
You're confusing character progression for development. Development, often referred to as fleshing out a character, is exploring a character and showing their traits to the audience. It can also be progression, but isn't necessarily.
Though Asuka's arc begins the moment she's introduced.
No, but they began to develop immediately, and nothing about Asuka was carefree.
The characters were developed for the audience long before the series started totally deconstructing them.
>We start to see the core components of her character slowly being revealed immediately, and the beginnings of her descent are planted in even in her very first appearance.
Virtually no different from Rebuild 2.22 then, except for what I have to believe is some sort of miss on your keyboard:
>slowly being revealed immediately
because that makes no sense.
>You're confusing character progression for development.
I am not, I am using a term as characterization for what you describe, and development for the other, because people often get confused with "development", as it's most often use to denote exactly progression. They're almost synonymous.
Hence my point remains entirely valid, and you're entirely incorrect. Because Asuka has the same type of core components being revealed, even to a deeper degree arguably than NGE early on, and also tops it off with some early progression (using your term) in her character.
All in all, from an objective an critical standpoint, you don't have any points to make.
see above, she's shallow as can be if just her intro is introduced, as we are with 2.22.
>No, but they began to develop immediately, and nothing about Asuka was carefree.
I'm fairly sure being introduced with a panty shot gag and dealing out slaps, just to make kawaii uguu faces and have a generic robot fight to save the day isn't carefree.
>The characters were developed for the audience long before the series started totally deconstructing them.
HAHAHAHAHAHA no. If you're talking about the original NGE, they winged it. Asuka was originally supposed to die.
>How about you re-watch episode 16 and 2:22?
no, how about you read that post and watch your entire argument get debunked.
2.22 can't have "skipped" anything if it's not only natural to have it in 3.33, but also much better to have it in 3.33.
Leliel and that part of Evangelion represents a darker turn in the story, and Shinji/Rei/Asuka coming out and to life to witess Tokyo-3 trashed, as well as the turmoil and infighting about to arise is perfect for a dark turn.
The phone scene in 2.22 was better than this, and less awkward.
>because that makes no sense.
It means that the show immediately begins to reveal and construct the character for the audience.
Asuka in Rebuild has none of her core components explored. The film skips over all her development as a character before skipping straight to 3.33, which just gives us timeskipAsuka.
Look, the point you're making is that Asuka isn't developed in 2.22 because it was supposed to happen later. The point I'm making is that Asuka isn't developed because of the writing team wanting to shove random ass shit into the plot that soaked up time. You'd have something of a point if 3.33 came along and fixed this, building the characters up a bit, but, as you yourself have said, it didn't.
Episode 22 was more problematic than I expected, by the way.
>2.22 can't have "skipped" anything if it's not only natural to have it in 3.33, but also much better to have it in 3.33.
But if it doesn't happen in 3.33 then it has been fucking skipped.
>The film skips over all her development as a character before skipping straight to 3.33, which just gives us timeskipAsuka.
That's 3.33's fault, not 2.22's.
Your point is moot.
>Look, the point you're making is that Asuka isn't developed in 2.22 because it was supposed to happen later.
No, I am making the point that Asuka IS developed in 2.22, and that she's equivalently developed as well. Because Asuka early on is not a very well-developed character.
I am making the point that if Asuka is to be anything more than a generic, washed out, shitty tsundere, you actually need some time. NGE took that time. Cut off NGE at episode 13, and Asuka is a shit character. A comedy gag character with zero merits besides sex appeal.
That's a fact. Go ahead, rewatch that span of episodes and don't project the later episodes onto the earlier ones. You will be forced to agree, because none of what makes Asuka a "good character" is found in the first half.
>The point I'm making is that Asuka isn't developed because of the writing team wanting to shove random ass shit into the plot that soaked up time.
No, Asuka is developed precisely the way she is in 2.22 because the writers wanted Asuka to look good. It's all there in the 2.0 CRC, their words, Anno and Tsurumaki's.
>But if it doesn't happen in 3.33 then it has been fucking skipped.
By 3.33. Not 2.22.
It has been skipped by Rebuild, but not by 2.22 in itself. It would be aboslutely horrible to have those parts in 2.22 and you know it.
You'd have to have a four hour long movie, and if you were to do that, why not split it up in two and... voila, 3.33 is the next movie that should, JUST LIKE NGE DID, flesh out the characters it had set up.
The first half of Evangelion is setting up the stage and the characters, the second half is developing and finishing. 3.33 said "FUCK YOU" to the development, and left 4.44 with nothing but crap to finish.
>I am making the point that if Asuka is to be anything more than a generic, washed out, shitty tsundere, you actually need some time.
...And rather than taking any time to do it, the Rebuilds diverted to random new characters and stretched out plotlines that ended up going nowhere.
Which is thanks to 3.33, not 2.22.
Don't get me wrong. I don't disagree that Rebuild fucked up. But if you're going to claim 2.22 or 1.11 is responsible for that fuckup, when 3.33 exists, then you are clearly not thinking straight.
A good idea is to make foundations for the future to build upon.
A bad idea is to tear down foundations and not create new ones.
IMO, 2.22 fucked up the moment it introduced a new character. She adds nothing to the plot and serves only to drain from the roles of other characters.
The groundwork for the shit of 3.33 was set up in the introduction of Mari and the ending of 2.22. 2.22 doesn't get a pass because the changes were blatantly there to set up 3.33, and served no real purpose within 2.22 itself.
>IMO, 2.22 fucked up the moment it introduced a new character. She adds nothing to the plot and serves only to drain from the roles of other characters.
Actually, she does add to the plot since she's heavily involved in it with the first scene, and is later implicated with IPEA and SEELE.
What exactly does Asuka add to the plot?
>2.22 doesn't get a pass because the changes were blatantly there to set up 3.33, and served no real purpose within 2.22 itself.
As you can see above, it does serve a purpose within 2.22.
The real observation and statement to make, that doesn't contradict the facts, is that 2.22 shouldn't get punished because 3.33 was bad and failed to be as good as the previous two.
eva 3.0 is instead operating on eva itself(nge) instead of mecha and other anime and drama tropes. if u dont like it well u didnt just miss out on one of the key points of rebuild but nge as well. eva has never attempted to befit ur narrow expectations of a series. but in fact it makes an effort not to. get fuked babbies and gravel at the thought that 3.0 was the most spiritual successor of nge
I think the problem is that the Eva manga had to reveal her actual origins as a female classmate of Yuis that wanted to bone Yui. Meaning she is that girl in the one picture with baby Shinji.
It has been skipped by Rebuild, but not by 2.22 in itself. It would be aboslutely horrible to have those parts in 2.22 and you know it.
You'd have to have a four hour long movie, and if you were to do that,
I see your point, but I disagree that adding earlier "darker" more introspect parts on 2.22 would be bad, by the contrary, I think the fight against Sahaquiel was rather sillier. 2.22 was too much action centered. One of the Angels that could perfectly be skiped was Sahaquiel, episode 12 only importance was to show a little bit of Misato development and Shinji getting more used to his every day life. Episode 16, however, was much more important overall, but keeping bardiel instead of Sahaquiel would have led the movie to be less action centered and would be less "Profitable" to the industry of "action movies starndards". So I disagree with you, 2.22 was decent but didn't have the same level of char development it needed, even tough most of the focus of it should have been on its sequel, the amount of action of 2.22 was unnecessary.
Meant to quote this:
>Don't get me wrong. I don't disagree that Rebuild fucked up. But if you're going to claim 2.22 or 1.11 is responsible for that fuckup, when 3.33 exists, then you are clearly not thinking straight.
Also, I'm not >>134806181 and I have stated before that while 2.22 don't completely fucks up like 3.33 but by having less char development was already inferior to the original series regardless of 3.33 should have been the movie with more char development or not.
I kinda do feel Sahaquiel should stay, but they could have changed its appearance to appear in 3.0.
All we got for an angel was some red shit that was shoved inside Mark-06 and they never explained what happened to the other angel during the timeskip.
>Actually, she does add to the plot since she's heavily involved in it with the first scene, and is later implicated with IPEA and SEELE.
She's implied to do SOMETHING, but it's never implied what she may or may not have done or be doing in the story. She also only interacts with one other character in the whole film, and for two scenes totaling about 3 to 4 minutes of interaction with Shinji.
At least Asuka is an actual character who has actual interactions with other characters, no matter how cliched those interactions might be. She actually has identifiable goals and motivations, and although it's arguable how interesting those things are, at least they exist.
>but by having less char development was already inferior to the original series regardless
There's no skirting around that, but people don't mention the other characters because they're either asukafags, misatofags or kaworufags who literally couldn't care less about Ritsuko, Fuyutuski or Toji.
In a matter of prioritation however, regarding the core story, to adapt to a movie they had to be cut. It's acceptable, but it allows for more concentrated development.
It's a choice between developing eight characters poorly,or four very well.
>I see your point, but I disagree that adding earlier "darker" more introspect parts on 2.22 would be bad, by the contrary, I think the fight against Sahaquiel was rather sillier.
Than dancing to defeat the monster of the week? I don't think so. Having one aerial Angel is a must.
I agree episode 16 would be great. In fact, it could be added as a consequence of 2.22. If we're chasing the introspection and inner dialogues of Shinji, then we have a two in one here.
Rei has her monologue as seen in episode 14, inside the EVA.
Shinji has his confrontation as seen in episode 16, inside the EVA.
It was an opportunity they threw away.
I love shit like this, satan.
Since this thread is still alive after a day, I'll bite.
>Rebuild 3.33 is the worst thing to come out of the Evangelion franchise and anyone who likes it is an idiot.
Personally I liked it, though you will most likely claim I'm an idiot for doing so. It captured what it was trying to do very well, which was mostly what you seemed to point out.
>It so severely rapes and trivializes the characters the story has built that the only emotion it should evoke from a sane, healthy human being is disgust and discomfort
I'd like to think it was the point of the movie, since I see it as being from Shinji's point of view, so much shit happens and you're thrown into a shithole that you've made and has festered for 14 years, which to you seemed like a blink of an eye. Though trivialize doesn't seem quite right to me.
>Even those who were pandered to in 3.0 has had their entire fandom exposed as shallow wish-fulfillment, through rejecting every solid quality the characters and story once stood for while not building any of it's own.
I'm not too familiar with the pandering that you're referring to here, unless it's the Kaworufags you're referring to, in which case, it's a little hard to refer to it as pandering, since is was really weak and there wasn't much of it, in my opinion.
>The barren landscape of 3.0 is also reflected in it's story, characters and plot: an empty, dead void filled only with intense destruction and hatred for what Evangelion is, 3.0 was the desire to rather destroy Evangelion and it's cast than to see it continue in a respectful manner.
I'm not sure what the problem is in what you're trying to say here. The purpose of the movie was to destroy every conception you had retained from the previous movie, much like how Shinji literally destroyed everything. I'm not sure what's meant by "a respectful manner" here. This is Evangelion, where things don't always go the way you expect, and things don't go the way they should just because it's logical.
>She's implied to do SOMETHING, but it's never implied what she may or may not have done or be doing in the story.
In the beginning and the movie, and later, she is SHOWN to do something, not merely implied. The things she's IMPLIED to have done are in the background, as they should be, if it at all, they are.
Because if Rebuild 3.33 was like the original EVA, Mari would too have been subverted as not being quite the special snowflake some thought she was, that she as a child was a pawn. Unfortunately, 3.33 brought with it more Mari Sueness and special snowflake shit than ever.
>She also only interacts with one other character in the whole film, and for two scenes totaling about 3 to 4 minutes of interaction with Shinji.
Which is good for a start. I don't want a new character hogging all the screentime.
>At least Asuka is an actual character who has actual interactions with other characters, no matter how cliched those interactions might be. She actually has identifiable goals and motivations, and although it's arguable how interesting those things are, at least they exist.
Which is true, Asuka is in 2.22 a better character than Mari.
But the fact remains, Mari does add to the plot, is relevant, and could have been a respectable addition that changed things up by the end of the series.
If not for 3.33.
Ah, yes, Mari is implied to be doing... something.
Something that is never explained, even in 3.33. Something that would have probably been covered in in Kaji's old role as spy.
Just a vague something.
Yes, she's shown to kill an Angel, but that's literally it. There's no other conclusions you can draw from her actions or the story as a whole other than "She's doing something MYSTERIOUS."
And to be completely honest, if you're going to introduce a new character, you should have them interact with more than one other character. We have no sense of who she is as a person other than a few vague character traits. There's nothing else.
>Mari would've been good if she'd not been shit!
Nigga, these films don't exist in a vacuum. Of Mari's lack of being anything interesting in 2.22 if 3.33 somehow built on her.
But it didn't.
She had no reason to exist. Her entire role was piecemealed out of that of other characters, detracting from them while ultimately adding nothing.
This is what mogunami would have really looked like IRL.
In that case, I hope you can actually respond seriously.
>Personally I liked it, though you will most likely claim I'm an idiot for doing so.
I will. You are an idiot. Now that we've gotten that out of the way:
>I'd like to think it was the point of the movie [severely rapes and trivializes the characters], since I see it as being from Shinji's point of view
Even making such an interpretation doesn't improve matters. From Shinji's point of view or not, the characters and the setting is shallow, basic and downright unrealistic, to the point that one cannot adopt Shinji's point of view as the viewer. The viewer is able to tell that the story is too thin to work or be believable.
>I'm not too familiar with the pandering that you're referring to here, unless it's the Kaworufags
It's the Kaworufags, and Asukafags evidently and pretending you're not aware means you are indeed an idiot, or denying it to save face for your own fandom.
There was tons of it, and it's mathetmatically provable, as increasing his screentime and part of the story by a factor of six times, one episode out of twenty six versus one moive out of four.
There is no real counter-argument you can provide here.
>I'm not sure what the problem is in what you're trying to say here. The purpose of the movie was to destroy every conception you had retained from the previous movie, much like how Shinji literally destroyed everything.
Let's take that into context with your next sentence:
>This is Evangelion, where things don't always go the way you expect, and things don't go the way they should just because it's logical.
Did you watch Evangelion? Because that is not good description Evangelion, a series which delves deeply into it's characters and is known for logical as in realistic characters.
More to the point, the things "go" only one way, and the way of pandering to the aforementioned fanbases, to the point of utter predictability. It's the one consistency throughout Rebuild.
Of course Rebuild would hardly come to the same level NGE achieved, most fans weren't fooled to be hyped by the movie and were expecting just more fun and some modern high quality action with Evas, 1.11 and 2.22 were passable in that regard, but 3.33 completely fucked up everything and the action was even that good to be enjoyable. If you can't see it, well you must be a typical delusional Kaworufag.
>Yes, she's shown to kill an Angel, but that's literally it.
As well as make her way into Tokyo-3 and commandeer an EVA. But let's just pretend you aren't intentionally forgetting things.
>There's no other conclusions you can draw from her actions or the story as a whole other than "She's doing something MYSTERIOUS."
No, we can make clear cut conclusions like the one above, and the first one being that she helped Kaji obtain the Key of Nebuchadnezzar.
>And to be completely honest, if you're going to introduce a new character, you should have them interact with more than one other character
Why? There is no should or should not.
Don't strawman please.
While it is not to be doubted that Mari is indeed a poor character, the reason for Mari being a poor character is above all else, 3.33 and nothing else.
Marifags after 2.22:
>"It doesn't matter that she had no character and did nothing but take up screentime! She's clearly getting more development in the next film!"
Marifags after 3.33:
>"It doesn't matter that she had no character and did nothing interesting in 3.33! She was implied to be doing something important in 2.22, 3.33 just fucked up and forgot about it, so she's fine in 2.22!"
The fuck guys.
>his increasing his screentime and part of the story by a factor of six times
Kaworu only had 20 minutes of screentime in 3.0, as opposed to about 13-14 in NGE.
That's not a big leap at all especially considering the latter was far more memorable and impactful than the former.
>No, we can make clear cut conclusions like the one above, and the first one being that she helped Kaji obtain the Key of Nebuchadnezzar.
And why so we need her in that role if she's just going to go nowhere later?
Kaji could've just gotten the new plot device himself. We did not at all need this random new character that would quickly turn out to be nothing but fluff.
As an additional point I'd like for you to consider that you might have missed the point.
I don't think Rebuild of Evangelion is what you think it is, and I can evidence that, prove it if your post here >>134806883
is to be considered.
What 3.33 has done, is not to be "unexpected" as you claim, but to paraphrase Hiroki Azuma on that, he says that "3.33 was boring, because you expect Evangelion to do something unexpected". Do you see the problem here?
But to get to the final point, because the only consistency in Rebuild as well as the statements from staff is precisely the favoritism towards their own favorite characters, the truth is most likely that the point of Rebuild is really just character promotion or demotion based on those tastes.
That explains the lacking plot, the hackneyed plot devices, and more importantly, makes the entire feature entirely predictable.
I hold this to be obvious for anyone giving it any thought. It is so obvious that among moviegoers, it was the first impulse, the instinctual thought about 3.33, what Anno was doing.
>No, we can make clear cut conclusions like the one above, and the first one being that she helped Kaji obtain the Key of Nebuchadnezzar.
Which might be interesting if we knew what the Key of Nebuchadnezzar was, or what it did, or what the implications of doing that were. And honestly, I don't remember how her doing this was implied either. But even if it was it doesn't matter.
>Why? There is no should or should not.
Character interaction is the lifeblood of character development. Yes, introspection is useful in certain situations, but how a thinks about, acts toward, and responds to other characters is pretty much the most important part of establishing them as a character. Without that, any character is always going to seem pointless and tacked on.
>Kaworu only had 20 minutes of screentime in 3.0, as opposed to about 13-14 in NGE.
The episode he's in that exists to set up those 20 minutes also counts. Because without destroying the world, ruining every other character, dumbing down the plot and what not, you could not make for even a minute of Kaworu's time.
But lets' say we just consider the increase, that's nearly twice the increase anyway not including screentime from previous movies, in which he featured in as well. A fact about Rebuild is that every single character except Kaworu will have their screentime more or less halved or worse.
It's a huge leap. Especially considering how it was used, because as you point out the original was better wasn't it?
The extra screentime in 3.33 was pure pandering.
>Which might be interesting if we knew what the Key of Nebuchadnezzar was,
Your words betray you. The concept of this item is in itself interesting, the plot was stirred to assure it's aquiring. There is a similar plotline, only much shorter, in NGE where Kaji runs off with Adam to Gendo. At that point, we did not know what Adam was either.
Regardless, Mari was involved with the plot of 2.22.
>Character interaction is the lifeblood of character development. Yes, introspection is useful in certain situations, but how a thinks about, acts toward, and responds to other characters is pretty much the most important part of establishing them as a character. Without that, any character is always going to seem pointless and tacked on.
These are all good points, but they fail to relate to the issue of whether one SHOULD always force a new character to interact with everyone else. As a newcomer with no established background, working it's way in to the established make more sense both from a character perspective and from the outside perspective.
Stop being retarded. I'm not a Marifag and I doubt the rest are as well.
>you could not make for even a minute of Kaworu's time.
But none of those things happened in the previous two movies and Kaworu still showed up. For more than a minute.
Nonetheless it's about 20 minutes overall which is completely insignificant of a difference from his screentime in NGE.
And actually Misato, Shinji, and Rei Q all have more screentime than Kaworu in 3.0.
>The extra screentime in 3.33 was pure pandering
Everything can be considered pandering to some one. The reason Eva is so popular is because it panders to the people who like it. That doesn't invalidate it at all, because the Kaworu and Shinji scenes were very good by themselves; one of the only good things in the movie, rather.
>And why so we need her in that role if she's just going to go nowhere later?
Again, why did we go nowhere? Because of 3.33. I'll remind you that 3.33 decided that Mari was a more important character than Kaji, by the way. Why did we need Kaji if he was gong to go nowhere later?
Every major problem with Rebuild so far can be tracked down to 3.33, and 3.33 alone in terms of storybuilding and plot. In a more broader and realistic sense, the problem with Rebuild is the blatant fanboyism of the writer team hijacking the story of Evangelion.
>But none of those things happened in the previous two movies and Kaworu still showed up. For more than a minute.
But where is he anon? Removed and far away from everyone. "Kaworu's time" refers to his introduction and manifestation as the pandering device he is in 3.33. You could have one minute of Kaworu pointlessly there, but without setup from that point on, it cannot be done.
>Everything can be considered pandering to some one.
No, because we intelligently understand pandering as something with no real value but to glorify or please, something without substance to it. This is why it's possible to have Kaworu with more screentime in Rebuild but to have him with less substance than in NGE.
>And actually Misato, Shinji, and Rei Q all have more screentime than Kaworu in 3.0.
They most certainly don't, and Misato and Rei Q are both heavily downplayed from their originals and previous movies, their poor quality owes directly to Kaworu's influence.
The reason EVA is popular is because it could be taken seriously. That's it. There's been more spectacular anime than it before, with better budgets and more advertising, but they all seemed to lack the quality that they could be taken seriously. A sense of realism that's hard to produce.
>That doesn't invalidate it at all, because the Kaworu and Shinji scenes were very good by themselves
They were not good scenes. They were meaningless, pandering scenes that had zero development or realism to them.
The reason Kaji's subplot with Adam is acceptable is because he's an actual character outside that. If Kaji was just a lame plot device that didn't interact with the characters I would be saying the exact same thing I am now.
>These are all good points, but they fail to relate to the issue of whether one SHOULD always force a new character to interact with everyone else. As a newcomer with no established background, working it's way in to the established make more sense both from a character perspective and from the outside perspective.
Yes, they should, and you can look to NGE to see evidence of why. Asuka's introduction in NGE is a group scene in which she interacts with Shinji, Misato, Toji, and Kensuke, and how these characters interact gives an immediate sense of who Asuka is as a person. The same thing can be said for Kaji's scene, in which he's introduced to the entire group at once and his major background with Misato is brought up immediately.
Compare this to Mari's three scenes in 2.22. In the first she talks to no one and kills a thing. In the second she falls on Shinji while Shinji does essentially nothing, and in the third she steals a better character's scene in a way that doesn't make sense and she's still basically just talking at Shinji. It's completely idiotic.