Change sides, probobly if tatsumi was willing to put out. though honestly, it feels like tatsumi could of at least lead her away from the empire to give them an easier time of things. that at least could of been more likely.
>Kill and torture
I love this meme
I've got something better for you
>Implying people who do nothing wrong need redemption
Anon, she is a military officer, it's her job to kill and extract information from terrorists. Do the polices and soldiers need redemption too?
Redeemed? I like her for how she is
Uhm... she never tortured anyone for information. Just for the hell of it, because she could. Heck, she even tells people how they can make the prisoners suffer more before they die.
She extracts information and semen from terrorists. Is she really that evil?
>Uhm... she never tortured anyone for information. Just for the hell of it, because she could. Heck, she even tells people how they can make the prisoners suffer more before they die.
Yeah, and whats your point?
The only body that can judge if someone is a war criminal or not is a legal court, not some rebels or terrorist organizations. In Esdeath's case, her government supports her actions because those are their orders, there is no international court to judge her and the population loves her for protecting them from terrorists and barbaric invaders, so in no way you can call her a criminal, in fact, she is a hero here.
And they told necessary stuffs in that process, so it means she did her job anyway, she just enjoyed it a little bit.
I totally get your point and I must add that it's pretty unclear if in the world she exists being "war criminal" is even an offense. But your basic sense of morality must be pretty messed up if you consider killing, torture and god knows what else she has committed just. Even if the principles do not exist inside the work in question, you have the outside perspective and the right to judge. I'm having hard time believing that anyone else than retard or an edgelord would argue that nobody blaming her makes her means just.
Honest answer? She'll always be a killer, and she'd never stop being a sadist.
That said, her nature could be turned to less socially destructive ways. She's capable of love and getting along with people. Give her an outlet like hunting beasts or whatever and she could live a 'good' life without necessarily being a saintly individual.
Perhaps in such a scenario there'd be rumors that she enjoys killing beasts a little too much, but it's hard to see that being any major issue.
Thank for understanding my point but I see you forgot to get into the character's shoes when reading a fictional work. To enjoy a fiction, you should see it from the character's point of view instead of our meta view. From Esdeath' view, she did nothing wrong, because she just followed the rule of nature, in other words, the universal rule that stands above human standards. In our world of laws and order, murder is a grave sin but not in her world, it's a crapsack world where people killing each other on daily basic, so a little girl became addict to killing because she had to do it everyday for survival make perfect sense, we have to understand that before giving any judgement.
It's not so hard to compare to the real world.
You know child soldiers exist, and naturally they follow orders and do not believe they are doing anything wrong. It's also a crap sack world where people kill each other. It could be a different galaxy, as our worlds are so apart.
Does this mean you cannot criticize this lifestyle? Of course not. No one says you cannot criticize a person and voice valid points if you don't share the same beliefs about moral, and considering concepts like "death", "torture" and for example "corruption" are definitely considered negative in the series, she cannot be defended even by saying they have different moral standards, even if killing is more common part of the setting.
After what she did to Leone in the manga? Not a chance. Bitch deserves to burn.
You should trust your dick more than your brain.
You see, in this world we have a complete law system to judge war crimes, the using of child soldiers and so on, and that system was accepted by almost all countries in the world, so we actually have a basic to judge about them, but that's not the case in Esdeath's world.
I must remind you that we see that world mostly from Tatsumi's view, and he was country boy who lived in a isolated village for almost all his life, the only outside connect he shared with was the NR, a terrorist organization which also happened to be Esdeath's bitter enemy, so we can't expect them to have a fair judgement for her.
Let's see from that world's view. Who sees Esdeath as a bad person? The NR, the rebel, the invaders she fought off, and who else? The government and her soldiers obviously didn't, but what really important is the population, they love and adore her as their protector. In other words, if you are a citizen in that setting, you can hate the corrupted government but you will love Esdeath.
But the world clearly shares the same concepts of justice as our world. It's just stuck on sort of a civil war, but has the same code of ethics. Breaches are frowned upon, just not with Esdeath who government/whatever uses as an useful tool of death. You have to remember the reason she isn't judged in-universe, not because different morality, but because judging and punishing her would be the government shooting its own leg. It's natural NR has negative view about her and government affects the public, but it doesn't still mean the basic morality does not exist and is incomparable.
In short, I believe Esdeath is not at "fault" because she is doing something that she is told to do, which most likely is what she considers right. Basically she is brainwashed tool. And as the same principles of "right" and "wrong" exist in the universe (naturally affected by mutual propaganda but not changing their basic properties) it is only logical to see the deeds she does as "wrong".
The problem is to judge someone is "right" or "wrong", you must have a ground basic. You can only say she is wrong by using our outsider's meta view. In-setting, while the rebels and terrorists she fights hate her for political reasons, if you put yourself into the characters' shoes, normal civilians have no reason to hate Esdeath, whatever she did, they can consider them necessary evil to protect them, and she really does protect them well. Basically, you can only say Esdeath is wrong if you see yourself a a terrorist in this setting.
Your autocorrect must be broken for you to accidentally type something like Mine Worst Girl
Let's give another example. Judging from the attitude towards corruption, murder, torture etc. it's fair to assume the world does not deviate in sense of morality. Based on this we have a following setting:
World before war (moral views are close to ours) -> During the war (both sides believe another is wrong, while both breaking moral views established earlier. This is the setting of anime and it gives a sense that killing to achieve a goal is justified, as it is necessary for both sides to believe so to make the war just.) -> After the war (winner becomes just).
In short, there exists a moral code that clearly exist in the world, but because civil war, both use "just" violence against each other. This does never make violence "just", however: even after the conflict is resolved, the other side will outright state that "violence is bad, but we had no choice but to use violence to win", which is only an justification, not a disagreement on the initial moral principles the both sides break.
Now your argument is that if you are a character in the story, you insert yourself on either side who sees violence just to achieve a victory. But at the same time, there is literally no reason why you wouldn't self insert as villager number 393293 who considers the entire conflict pointless and violent. I totally understand your argument about subjectivity of morality, but then again, claiming Esdeath did nothing wrong works only if you are under government propaganda, and even then you have no reason to consider killing just under the points I presented.
Again, Esdeath is not at "fault", but under the setting her actions can only be "justified" from the point of government, which uses the clear breach of moral code for their campaign.
And as comment seemed too long, I must state also that using moral subjectivity as a point is not wrong, I give you that. It's perfectly valid to state that she did nothing wrong as morals of the current situation were what they were.
But at the same time subjectivity about moral questions brings a whole new terrific implication. I could, for example, kill a person, feed on his corpse, and after that set entire earth on fire killing all that lives, and while burning claim "I did nothing wrong" and a person that believes in subjective morality would have to accept that.
Actually, I didn't said killing in general in this setting isn't wrong, the majority of characters think it's wrong. But that doesn't necessarily make a normal person in that world think Esdeath is a bad person just because she kills.
Esdeath's job is killing those who oppose the government, she may do the killing for her own enjoyment, but by doing in that, she protects the citizens from barbarians and terrorists. Even if they fully know who she is, any normal citizen may consider her a necessary evil who is there to protect their lives even though her moral codes and theirs don't match. Citizens don't need to be under government's propaganda to understand that without her, they will easily become preys of invading barbarians, terrorist organizations and rebel forces.
The key point here is, by killing, Esdeath does protect people, a large number of them, so to them, even if she is a killer, what she does is right. Obviously, you can argue that to random villager from a rural area where isn't under her protection, her actions are completely wrong to them, but there are more people she protect.
>But at the same time subjectivity about moral questions brings a whole new terrific implication. I could, for example, kill a person, feed on his corpse, and after that set entire earth on fire killing all that lives, and while burning claim "I did nothing wrong" and a person that believes in subjective morality would have to accept that.
I don't see how this analogy works, since the reason I say Esdeath isn't wrong is since even it's not her intention, her actions indeed have positive effect and there are people who love her for that. But isn't what you depicted just pure psychotic behavior of a utter madman?
I've got to sleep so I throw something together fast, I'll be back if the thread is still up.
I admit you're right on the villager viewpoint if the killing causes protection, as people are very eager to trade their morals for safety, I'll give you that. But as the general views of morality are the same as ours, there must be a base moral code which is constantly broken by Esdeath. Whether you consider Esdeath right or wrong is a question about this base code: either you accept there is an "objective" morality (killing is not right) or that the moral code is "subjective", where we get to the example I presented in the last post: if we believe moral is subjective and killing can be considered just then the example where I burn entire world could be argued to be "just". Even if it's a very extreme example, we could for example say I'd kill 95% of human population and accidentally save earth, which could be as justifiable as your Esdeath as I'd accidentally save the future of earth. This while we both probably agree that killing 95% of humanity is bad, regardless how global positive effect it would have. In short, either you accept killing as an act is wrong and Esdeath is wrong, or you accept that base principles of morality are up to arguments, leading to a scenario where you can justify my example of killing 95% of humanity.
>But isn't what you depicted just pure psychotic behavior of a utter madman?
You have to remember we are talking about Esdeath here.
I didn't actually expect this long conversation on a thread about somewhat dead subject, thanks I guess.
I'm also glad to have a serious conversation here.
The first thing I have to remind you is I am arguing about Esdeath's morality base on the series's setting, not using my own moral codes. And the reason I said Esdeath isn't wrong is because from what I see, the normal folks in that world seem to love her despite what she did, only her political rivals hate her. So when I put my shoes into a normal person in that world, Esdeath is right. That's all.
And in your last example I didn't know why you supposedly wanted to burn the world, but now I know the reason, all I can say is it depends on the setting, if using the moral standards accepted by the general population in this world, it obviously isn't right, but if they are moral standards of some other fantasy settings, things are up to debate.
Maybe he is afraid of big breasts? That would explain why he picks Mein over Leone, Akame, Chelsea and Esdese. They all have huge breasts.
She would have been the perfect fapfu as blonde and her hair should have ended slightly above her ass. Those two details kinda ruin her perfection.
well, even River said he admired that man and only killed him because he was ordered to.
also, if he wasn't liked, PM and Esdeath would likely had choosen another person. Why kill him and blame Night Raid for it when he was hated?
What would it be like to drench her with your sticky white stuff?
From what we saw, that man was liked by a former general and hold some power that could challenge Honest, those aren't enough to indicate normal citizens like him. He could be an officer who's popular with the military thus had their support but disliked by the common folks because of his pro-military policies for all we know.
True that, but still,Honest wanted to stain Night Raids reputation with his death. And that would make no sense if the people hated him - and the military hated Nigth Raid before anyway.
If Honest would just like him out of the picture, he could have done this silently, without killing Spear and the guards too and leaving leaflets. Obviously he hoped to cause some anti- Night Raid feelings in the crowd and force the real Night raid to act.
You can fuck any girl you want to with Chelsea.
I think she has the personality for it, yeah.
Reminder that their trip got cancelled.
>implying she isn't a hero already.
Consider her point of view. She is a soldier of war who s looking to defend her country and a group of assassins come and kill her long times friends. Wouldn't you have a vendetta and use your power to stop them?