Chapter 3 part 1-2 up
>“Yes, yes. Sorry about that. I’m just so susceptible to this kind of thing. …Crying with someone is part of my very essence, so I just can’t stand it. Oh, no. Here it comes again! Fwehhh!!”
“This might be the last time we speak, so I’ll use this opportunity to tell you something.”
>“What is it?”
>“Aleister, I will not stop you from perfecting humanity. You can do as you wish. But don’t abandon your humanity. I know for a fact that there were people who walked by your side because they were drawn by that humanity.”
Noukan why are you so based?
>It had happened when Kamijou focused on Othinus individually rather than the Magic Gods as a whole. The more definitive that change had grown, the more their hearts had shifted away from Kamijou.
It's Touma's fault for not telling the magic gods to live their life correctly.
I think Touma and Kamisato would both agree that they hate a world twisted by magic. Touma has to deal with constant bullshit wearing away at his body and spirit. Kamisato has to deal with endless uncertainty about what is even real.
>I didn’t turn into this because I wanted to.
> But I loved watching her pour as much love into the plants as she did other people. It calmed my heart.
>I honestly respected her desire to stand out and not blend in even if it meant fighting against society.
no its the fact dipshits like misaka getting in the way of him doing his job and every time he would try people would bitch or declare war on him.
literally its the fact that everyone he knows is batshit retarded and won't let him do his thing.
>just got his power a few days ago
>barely understands how it works
Why is he so certain that the "other world" he is sending them too is even a happy place and not some torture dimension and that is IF there really is another world.
>In truth, he had wanted it more than anything, but he would look like a fool if he got all excited about the love letter in his shoe locker and it turned out to be nothing but a cruel prank.
Uh...You're one to talk Touma.
>“He really is a hero loved by everyone.”
>Kamisato simply had not realized it.
>And ironically, even as Kamijou Touma watched that other boy leave, he had not realized the same about himself.
I see. This is why Touma lost the fight against Kamisato in this LN.
While it is true Kamisato is being cynical, Touma is a dense idiot who cannot see it too.
I like it, Kamisato's taking it too far, but I can't fault him for hating his normal life getting turned into a parody of what it was for someone else's convenience. Killing everyone isn't a solution, but seeing a bunch of people you know suddenly get warped into caricatures of themselves has got to be jarring.
Fuck Touma. He isn't owning up to his part of this and even admits it. I don't feel a bit of sympathy for him fir the parts of this he didn't have any control over. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying Kamisato went about this the best way but serious fuck your Touma and your fairy bitch too
>There was a girl with a large pirate hat, an eyepatch over her right eye, and a miniskirt. There was a girl in pajamas with a ton of antennae sticking out of her backpack and unnatural surgical scars on her neck. There was a ghost girl in white floating inside an artificial mist machine. There was a girl dressed exactly like Magical Powered Kanamin. There was a cheerleader girl with plastic pompoms. There was a girl in red Japanese armor with swords attached all over her body. There was a phantom thief girl dressed in full-body tights.
Looks like we'll be seeing these girls in the next volume. Also, it turned into harem war now.
I would think him having multiple plans and back up plans would shove him into the category of conflicted even if he really is set on his goal because it shows a lack of faith in himself
If Touma's right hand causes bad luck because it deflects the blessings of God, shouldn't that be proof that the girls around him aren't the result of magic god meddling? Or does that not apply because phase change out-tiers imagine breaker? So the result is that magic gods can set the stage for him, but they can't pull the strings.
But you know what really made me think?
Kamisato loves his harem too, otherwise he wouldn't be going this far just for them.
Deep down he truly believes he is doing this all for their sake, just like how Patricia believes she needs to save her sister from sacrificing herself.
In a way, Patricia and Kamisato are similar.
Also, Leivinia is similar to Touma.
Leivinia could solve everything if she told her sister about magic, but she cannot do that because she wants to protect Patricia from the existence of Magic. Touma is the same, he prefers to solve things himself than depend on others.
>My illusions have been broken since long.
>Aleister, do you admire those kind of heroes because at that time when you faced defeat the only thing you could do was lament yourself?
Reminds me of the time when he came back to the city in NT2.
>“Huh? What are you doing here?” said a black-haired girl who was approaching the spiky-haired boy and seemed like a shrine maiden outfit would suit her.
>“Huhh!? Kamijou-chan, you have guts to skip school and then just go for a walk!!” shouted a girl(?) 135 cm tall who started to grab at him.
>“Kamijou, how can you do this while we’re so busy preparing for the Ichihanaransai… wait, you reek of alcohol!? I can’t believe this! Why would you do something like this that shortens your own lifespan!?” said a high school girl with maddeningly huge breasts who also approached him.
>“Ohh, Kamijou Touma. It’s Kamijou Touma. I don’t really care about you, but make kitty purr!”
>In no time at all, they were in all directions.
>“Oh, you’re the guy who called the ambulance during the Remnant incident, aren’t you?” said Musujime Awaki who she once had a confrontation with and had fair-sized breasts.
>“U-um, if you were coming back, I wish you had told me,” said a high school girl with glasses and huge breasts who was wearing a Kirigaoka Academy winter uniform.
>“Oh, Kamijou. I didn’t think you’d be coming back right now,” said a high school girl with even larger breasts who was wearing a navy-blue sailor uniform.
>“Wait! Wait just a second!! This is my scene! If you’re going to do this, do it later!! Dammit, the guy-to-girl ratio here is completely out of balance. And is that group of huge breasts specifically targeted at me!? A-at this rate, I’ll be lost in the background…!! Did they create a forest to hide a leaf!?”
>As the Biri Biri girl shouted, Kamijou did not seem to even realize that he had all these people gathered around him.
I'm with both of them honestly, call me a fence sitting faggot, but I can understand why Kamisato would be mad and think that, even if he's taking the glass half empty view, and I can get Touma saying that maybe they liked him all along. Neither of them actually knows what's going on, but I can't fault Kamisato getting mad at his whole world turning upside down and overturning his expectations, he probably should ask if they used to like him though as far as that wouldn't get him.
>Hey, did you ever actually check with this Claire, Elza, and whoever else there is? Did you go around asking each one? ‘You originally hated me, didn’t you? There’s something wrong with this cooperative relationship, isn’t there? Your good will and feelings for me are fake, aren’t they? They’re all due to this right hand the Magic Gods gave me, aren’t they?’ Hah! I’d bet my life that you’d be lucky to only get a slap in return. Of course, it still looks to me like you need a serious punch from someone at some point
Why do I feel like I've seen this Kamisato issue before? Like, there has been something in the past where a character had a girl who liked them, but it appeared to be the result of some bullshit and they hated that.
All Touma did was question Kamisato's beliefs. It's a difference in ideals. The main issue lies in how they react to the conflict.
>Kamijou Touma: "I'm going to punch you in the face."
>Kamisato Kakeru: "I'm going to kill you."
No matter how you look at it, one's clearly more extreme than the other.
Chapter was a really good meta discussion of harems, but the best part is Noukan and Aleister. They are too human. I just want my Certain Magical Silver Star and his Scientific Dog stories. Pls, Kamachi, don't kill them.
>Touma about to knock for his boy Tsuchimikado
>After suffering through reading that harem shit for 2 chapters was looking forward to some funny dialog between them
>Tsuchimikado died again
If an all out war between the "Kamijou Faction" and the Kamisato Faction were to ignite, though, wouldn't the Kamijou side have an overwhelming advantage? Kamijou and Kamisato would deal with each other directly, so that leaves the rest.
I dunno what kinds of Gemstones and Magicians Kamisato has on his side, but Kamijou has the #1, the #3, the knowledge of the 103,000 Grimoires, the knowledge of a Magic God, the leader of Dawn-Colored Sunlight, a Saint and 10,000 clones of the #3. Well, putting aside the Saint since she's in another country right now, just having the #1 around on its own would heavily twist the odds in Touma's favor.
I don't know how this meta discussion of harems has gotten me so hyped for this fight. Kamisato isn't wrong, but he's also viewing it too negatively with no proof. His main issue seems to be he can't believe that anyone could possibly like him, he's got no self confidence, but the way he tries to elicit the same feelings out of Touma, a guy who fought a god to get to stay with the people he's gathered around him was a mistake and only pissed him off, it's too good a set up.
There is something I don't get.
This chapter implies that both Kamijou and Kakeru got their powers because they are "heroes loved by everyone", but Kamijou had IB since he was born.
How the fuck did IB judged an unborn fetus as a "hero loved by everyone"?
>but Kamijou has the #1,
Accelerator isn't Touma's m8 and would only help him if it involved LO or the other chicks in his house.
Reminder that loli Misaki was the only good Misaki.
>Kamisato isn't wrong, but he's also viewing it too negatively with no proof.
To be fair, Touma is viewing it too positively too.
It is the conflict between pessimism and optimism.
I just realized the one advantage that Touma has over Kamisato that totally skews the faction war in his favor.
Touma has a bro harem.
Kamisato may have his bitches but Touma has motherfucking Accelerator, Tsuchimikado, Hamazura, Gunha, Kakine, Ollerus, Thor, etc.
Touma is viewing it somewhat positively, but at the same time I can't blame him for trying to be positive. Maybe because I'd like to think things work out for good people like he does. He'd have tried to do many of the things he did all the same if he had no power, the difference is he would have died at some point, but if he accomplished even one of the attempts he would have accomplished the same feats without the help of magic gods. It's kind of like how there's hero archetypes all over AC, and you know they don't all have help from the Magic Gods, look at Hamazura. They might like him because he saved them, but I don't think it's wrong to let Touma attribute that to his own accomplishments because he still had to work for it.
>Sisters mobilize to support Touma
>Last Order intercepts the signal and informs Accelerator
>Accelerator clicks his tongue, wondering what that idiot's gotten himself into now, and sets out
Well, at least we know the issue isn't necessarily having a harem in itself. The problem comes more from the unnatural circumstances from which the harem arose.
Kamisato's mad about how his life suddenly veered off in a completely different direction with everyone around him seemingly brainwashed to make him popular.
she also "saved" her the first time they meet when he pretended to be her friend to pull her out of those delinquents.
It might no be that great but that triggered her.
Still that means shit when officially following the patern of novel release the first girl saved was Index and Mikoto third.
>Don’t look down on me while clearly trying to defend your worldly desires, harem accepter
He's a guy who's just naturally in tune with his true will from the very beginning, and you've seen all the good he's brought to the world, and other people's lives just by always following his heart, he was always gonna be a hero loved by everyone
>Kamisato Kakeru left Kamijou and the plant girl named Claire walked alongside him. As his back faded into the distance, more and more people joined him, creating a single large group. There was a girl with a large pirate hat, an eyepatch over her right eye, and a miniskirt. There was a girl in pajamas with a ton of antennae sticking out of her backpack and unnatural surgical scars on her neck. There was a ghost girl in white floating inside an artificial mist machine. There was a girl dressed exactly like Magical Powered Kanamin. There was a cheerleader girl with plastic pompoms. There was a girl in red Japanese armor with swords attached all over her body. There was a phantom thief girl dressed in full-body tights. They were all from a different world not centered on Kamijou Touma. That world existed somewhere besides Academy City and may have covered as much ground as Kamijou’s own world. Before long, the group vanished into the darkness.
The Russian shot and St. Germain got wrecked even harder I'd say, though this was pretty damn good. Speaking of which though, I wonder just how bad he'd get shit on if the full Delta Force was there, could he even handle Aogami's fetishes?
There's probably a difference in methods as well. I dunno how Kamisato did things at the start, but it resulted in hims amassing a rather large harem for himself in such a short period of time. He's probably really flashy and lacking in any sort of subtlety.
Touma, on the other hand, doesn't always add a new member to his harem with each new adventure. Take WW3. It was a huge event, but it didn't actually bring anyone new in. And don't mention Lessar, because she was brought in during the British Halloween arc, not WW3. Touma tends to sneak around, do things on his own, and it's not entirely rare for no one to witness his accomplishments. So his heroism generally tends to only bring in the minimum amount of people. Furthermore, even among the ones who do bear witness to his fights, not all of them fall head over heels for him. Take Misha, or Maria for instance.
Kamisato, on the other hand, is another story. Who knows what his methods were at first, but it looks like an astounding amount of girls were present throughout all of his adventures considering that he's only been at it for maybe three months.
>Kamisato is bitching about 3 FUCKING DAYS of WR changing his life while Touma has dealt with shit from IB for 16 years.
>Of course he is going to get mad at him.
That's one way to think about it, but also look at the situation in reverse, anon.
Touma has always had IB, from the day he was born and from the moment he woke up in the hospital with amnesia. He's never experienced or known what it's like to not have a special power within his right hand, or the lifestyle that comes packaged with. Kamisato was living a completely and normal life, before over the course of the month, everything got distorted into the ridiculous LN shenanigans he deals with now.
You know, Hamazura's a pretty strong argument against Kamisato. He has no special powers, yet he's managed to obtain a fairly healthy harem for himself as well. It's true that Touma influenced him in a strong way, but Hamazura's still an example of a normal high school (dropout) boy who's admired by many girls.
Nice try, Fiamma is at most a friend, but he's only helped Touma when their interests align so far. The point remains that every time Kakeru does anything he gets another girl in his harem that follows his every word to a disturbing degree, hell, the fact anyone in Touma's harem is somewhat tsundere shows how different they are.
>Also has anyone ever been as btfo by a Touma speech before?
>Implying Touma was't the one that got BTFO
>Don’t look down on me while clearly trying to defend your worldly desires, harem accepter
What are you talking about? Touma's grateful for his power.
Don't you remember Volume 4 of Old Testament? "Don't think of me as misfortunate! Because right now, I'm the most fortunate guy in the world!!" He's thankful for the opportunity to help people. Pre-amnesia, he cursed his inability to help others. He even asked Kanzaki why she didn't do more to help people despite her power, and stated that if he had her power, he could help others as much as he wanted.
I would say this was getting absurd, but we just had a talking dog destroy a comet controlled by a magic skeleton with drills last volume.
The problem with Kamisato is that even if he is right ot not, he has no why of knowing if killing all the Magic Gods would fix his life.
Suppose he kills them all and his harem doesn't stop loving him, then what? Will he acknolwedge that their love was real and that he killed a bunch of people out of pure retardation? Will he fail into the deepest despair?
In the end, he will be fucked.
He still had IB before that
He didn't see them helping him out in NT13? And he at least knows he's a mostly normal high school boy with a girlfriend he beat the tar out of Touma to save.
>“He really is a hero loved by everyone.”
>Kamisato simply had not realized it.
>And ironically, even as Kamijou Touma watched that other boy leave, he had not realized the same about himself.
Sixteen years, six months. Depends on your perspective, but that's why I specified both his birth and his amnesia.
Killing the Magic Gods doesn't seem to have anything to do with fixing his life, it's purely out of revenge for them supposedly screwing with him and his harem. The damage was already done.
Pre-amnesia, Touma's powerlessness was a source of anguish. He tried to do as much as he could, but he despaired at his inability to help people like Index.
Post-amnesia, he states to his father that he's happy. He suffers misfortune, yes, but that misfortune is what allows for him to see the misfortune of others and help them to the best of his ability. So in a way, he's grateful for that misfortune, and grateful to the power in his right hand that allows him to save those people. If he didn't have those qualities, he never would have saved Index. He wouldn't have been able to save Himegami. 10032 would have lost her life meaninglessly. Orsola would have been executed unjustly.
If the Magic Gods are responsible for his power and misfortune, then he has every reason to thank them for it. At least, that's probably what he thinks of his situation.
Its sad best girl isn't in this volume.
> You fucking bitch, I spent 80 years slowly rotting away, had to give pieces of my body to my friends to eat and a lot of fucked up shit. Do you think I'm going to feel bad because you have a shitton of girls after your dick?
Technically, he only remembers enough of that to understand Othinus and have PTSD headaches regarding the hells that she put him through. His actual memory doesn't encompass the whole time, or even a fraction of a fraction of the events.
They're only hearing him now, if they did hear him. I doubt he complains about this to them, he was trying to get someone else in his situation to understand him so the girls wouldn't be in the same position to be asked questions like that.
They might tell him now but I doubt they heard him.
Even if he did ask, how would he be able to verify their answers? If the Magic Gods turned him into a person who subtly manipulates everyone around him, there'd always be the suspicion that their previous perceptions of him were distorted. Like they fell in love him retroactively or something.
I don't see why someone who dislikes Touma is an Accelfag. That was never a real rivalry and even if you want to throw a fit and say it was, it's over and has been replaced with Kamisato
he wants some fucking food, then he founds out that some faggot have "silence" his bro, then throw him out of the fucking window, then complain about having a harem .Do you think he still gives a shit?
Either way, both of them are most certainly dense harem protagonists.
Touma literally does not notice the feelings of other girls.
Kamisato is kind of like what this anon said >>133587687 where he doesn't believe the girls truly have feelings for him and it's all because of WR.
Except he isn't complaining about the bitches being annoying, he is complaining about them being brainwashed because he has so little self-esteem that he can't even consider that someone else could fall in love with him.
Someone else can go through the list and compare if they want.
Hopefully this fag fucks off next volume.
Touma is so fucking alpha
Imagine Breaker makes you shit out of luck, World Rejecter just makes you a fucking kek
How is Touma supposed to lose to Kamisato anyway?
From what we've seen so far, he fights either relying on his ludicrously broken World Rejector and through sheer numbers and resources. I doubt he's ever actually had to participate in a physical brawl once. And if he's truly a normal high school boy, then he's probably not a master martial artist either.
Putting aside his dealings with the supernatural, Touma's beaten Skill-Outs in fights. He's tough enough to take on two at once (though he'd run if a third one came out). He beat Hamazura, who actually had a weapon in that fight.
>“He really is a hero loved by everyone.”
>Kamisato simply had not realized it.
>And ironically, even as Kamijou Touma watched that other boy leave, he had not realized the same about himself.
that is a big losing flag touma
>Unironically calling Touma TouMAN
>Implying Touma isn't right
It's odd but his logic isn't wrong, the Magic Gods were trying to intice him into being a scorer rather than threaten him at first, and he really likes one of them.
Why do people keep saying this? When his, Othinus' and Nephtys' lives are on the line, what could Kamisato possibly say that would make Touma concede and go "Sure, okay, go ahead and murder us"?
When you think about it the Magic Gods are probably the only ones to at least ask him nicely first before pulling shit to get him to cooperate, most just start right off with manipulating things.
Not to normal guys m8.
>Didn't confirmed spoilers say that Kamisato only just got one last lucky hit in? He may have hit Touma, but Touma beat him to a bloody pulp.
Isn't that how Touma fights usually go when he wins in the very end?
In this case Kamisato is fulfilling the same role.
What if Touma is Kamisato's Fiamma?
>Mfw shitty filthy dog and Touma get taken out in the same volume
>Kamisato beats Touma
>Tries to erase Othinus
>Goes to step on her
>Sphinx runs off with his favorite toy
>Kamisato runs off chasing Sphinx and Touma leaves
Spoilers from AS says that Kamijou is fine through the hot pot interludes. Said interludes seemed more like a joke than anything else that is canon. There is no way Leivinia would put the fruit she worked hard on just to be eaten by Touma and the freeloaders.
>shitty filthy dog
It looks to me like you need a serious punch from someone at some point.
>Old Series Vol. 4: "I'm grateful for Imagine Breaker!"
>Sure, that's fine.
>New Testament Vol. 14: "I'm grateful that the Magic Gods gave me this power!"
>Holy shit what happened to him this is completely different from before.
Whether it was because of the Magic Gods or not doesn't change the fact that many people were saved by this power. To deny it would be the same as denying Index, Mikoto, 10032, Himegami and so on.
She knows that an imouto is for tender-loving and caring. But she also knows an onii-chan is obviously for fucking.
Kamisato does think he's someone who deserves to be loved by them, he just thinks it's all WR. He doesn't think the normal highschool boy underneath WR is worth anything and no amount of changing himself would make him think he's more than a normal high school boy.
>that liked Kamisato a bit
She never liked him before the Magic Gods messed World Rejector. They twisted her personality and made her into a slave of a false love. They took away her free will, that's horrifying. I feel so bad for Kamisato now. He is basically a tragic hero fighting to avenge people who lost their true personalities because of the magic god scum, meanwhile Touma is the delusional harem accepter who is completely fine with letting people be twisted by the magic gods. How far he has fallen from grace, and to think he was a hero before. I blame Othinus, that semen demon corrupted her with her nice smell.
Touma is a massive hypocrite. Kamisato is basically saying "these girls are like tropical fish in tanks" (which is something Touma would dislike) but because fairyshit might have to actually pay for her crimes he's denying his own original feelings
I want to be corrupted by Othinus' smell
All he needs is a trap in his harem.
By what logic is Kamisato calling the girls tropical fish? And by what logic would Touma normally be totally for killing people with the intention to make the world a better place?
Touma IS the villain here.
Kamisato is fighting for his harem's freedom, how is that not heroic? His harem was robbed from their normal lifes and turned into caricatures because of the magic gods. That isn't right. Touma isn't living his life correctly and should pay for it, together with the Magic God's dark conspiracy.
Not really because Kamisato actually questions himself, unlike Touma who prefers to keep drinking the Magic God Kool-Aid.
I see now the next LNs will deal with Touma realizing his wrong ways. It is easy for him to save others, but it will take a while before he manages to save himself.
> I didn’t want to be the center of all these girls’ attention. I was fine not speaking with my childhood friend and not having any real connection to that shy gardening club member in my class. The normal scenery surrounded me where normal people freely used their normal hearts. I was satisfied living as a mere part of that!!
I think Kamisato might be gay
>It feels kind of odd to see Touma act like such a massive Magic Godfag
I'm laughing so hard right now at how much Othinus affected him and the story. I know it's still in-line with who Touma is from the start but it's hilarious how much of an effect Othinus had.
Also, Kamisato really needs to lighten the fuck up. Dude's too afraid to actually connect with people because of his low self-esteem that he's imposing his own views on them and declaring defeat before anything even happens. The love letter bit was nice since it showed Touma was willing to get himself excited and humiliated for a chance at something. Kamisato won't even take that chance.
Something like this, the guy just can't wrap his head around someone liking him. Touma said "everyone thinks they're great" but Kamisato clearly can't see why anyone would even think of liking him besides superficial stuff like his right hand or Magic God shenanigans.
>dem vagina bones
>Stiyl finally accepts an offer to have dinner with Touma at his place because he wants Touma to stop leaving text messages on his phone. And because he wants to make sure Index is ok.
>Index isn't there, she's with Maika for some reason.
>just Touma, Sphinx, and Othinus
>Stiyl is frumpy like he usually is but he's already here so whatever
>Othinus is sitting on the table at her own little table and they start eating
>Othinus asks how Stiyl can eat while he still has a cigarette in his mouth
>Just as he's about to explain, the power goes out
>Touma has to bring out some candles, turns out they're the long neck candles Othinus had Index buy for her
>Othinus leaves because she's mad at Touma using her candles before their 'own' dinner she wanted
>so Touma and Stiyl have a candlelit and cigarette-lit dinner by themselves. Also the power's out so there's no heater, they have to share Touma's blanket under the table
>Stiyl is frumpier
>then Index finally comes home with Maika
>they see Stiyl and Touma sitting at the table eating in the dark with only candles
>think they're on a date and Maika gets excited because it's just like her BL manga and Index gets like Index does
I actually don't know what would do it for him, he needs to somehow lose WR and have them stay anyways to prove it to him. Because someone "outside his harem" like Patricia was coming to like him, look at their cute interactions they were on a similar wavelength, but he immediately decided she was just getting corrupted by WR and is trying to offload her before she turns.
No, I just think he is right and Touma is wrong.
I'm sorry, but Touma's sophistry didn't convince me. I got too used to his shitty arguments to know all he says is just bullshit he makes up to justify his own desires.
At the end of the day Kamisato is right. The girls lost their personalities because of the Magic Gods, effectively losing who they really are. Touma's troll logic and wishful thinking won't fool me, there is no logical reason for over 100 girls to fall in love with just one person even if he saved them and to suggest otherwise is not only ridiculous but shameless.
Apparently, he wants to be a background character that never does shit and is alone till the end, since he will attribute any positive thing in his life to Magic God fuckery.
>Because someone "outside his harem" like Patricia was coming to like him
All of his girls were "outside of his harem" before they were a part of his harem. And with all of those flags, there is no way she could avoid becoming a part of his harem unless something really drives a wedge between them.
Most of those girls already knew Kamisato but he thought they didn't care about him.
And yes, people can find in love with you if you save them against all odds. Kamisato hates his harem but keeps being a fucking hero, which will cause more girls to fall for him, not because of his powers but because of his nature.
>The girls lost their personalities because of the Magic Gods
>Still using this bullshit.
That anon said someone outside his harem needed to tell him was the point, but so long as he has WR he's never going to believe it's for any other reason. Maybe he should go hang out with Hamazura or something.
Who's word we have aside from Touma's that they didn't change?
And look at things this way:
Kamisato is the one with WR, not Touma. And Touma is clearly a hypocrite, even the text makes note of that, so why believe him over Kamisato when it is clear Kamisato is the one who is right about this issue?
No one's that's the problem, both Touma and Kamisato have no objective information on the problem.
Kamisato has no proof the girls didn't come to like him because he started to act differently by running around saving people like he wants to rather than because of the magic gods, lots of things changed when he got WR it doesn't mean it's 100% the magic gods. I'm willing to entertain the idea Kamisato might be right, but until some magic god confirms "Yes we changed the girls around you into wanting to suck your dick" and not just Kamisato deciding there's no way anyone would ever love him I'm willing to believe they like him for who he is.
>Girl likes me
>"WHAT THE HELL IS THIS, SHE IS CLEARLY A DIFFERENT PERSON NOW THEN BEFORE I KNEW HER"
His logic is sound ya'll, he knows what he's talking about!
>His explanation is sound
>" There is no way this girls could fall in love with me, it must be the Magic Gods fucking with their brains!"
Both Touma and Kamisato's arguments are groundless and based on pure speculation and personal beliefs so you can say neither or them are "right" or "wrong".
In the end, it will take either a haremette confirming if they were or weren't in love with him before WR showed up or Nephytys telling him if the Magic Gods did or did not fuck with the girl's minds.
He wants something genuine but he's too afraid of what will happen if it turns out to be fake so he's convincing himself that it's been fake from the start.
You know how some people try not to get too hyped up for anything because they don't want to be disappointed? So that when it turns out good, they're pleasantly surprised and if it turns out shit, they can always comfort themselves by saying "I knew it was shit from the start"? Kamisato's that guy. Pre-emptive damage control.
It's already been said that even if IB had went to another person, that person wouldn't have accomplished the same thing as Touma. The special right hands chose them because of who they were. Kamisato himself in this volume said that if he could remove WR, he would but he still wouldn't abandon someone in need of help. He couldn't accept that it was that part of him that refused to abandon people that the girls liked. Fucker's too afraid of getting rejected and humiliated so he's blaming something else.
Kamisato is the one with WR, but no part of WR is said to bring him good luck, he's straight up said he thinks the magic gods threw it in as a bonus. Thus he has no proof and is wildly speculating, he might be right but he could be wrong, as Touma said he's tearing up the love letter without even wondering if it might be real.
What's so incredible about it?
People are discussing a lot of shit and the thread has been around for a while.
You only need every anon to post less than 10 times to reach that number.
It is impressive how they are letting themselves go along with Touma's wild ride. Time and time we are told how most of what Touma says is nonsense or bullshit he makes up to justify anything, but people allow themselves to believe in it because it is Touma saying it.
This is awfully similar to religion. While sometimes I agree with Touma, like when he saved the sisters, I cannot agree with him in this one. The girls lost their personalities, for god's sake. Why you cannot recognize this truth? Othinus must be a hell of a drug for Touma to defend her like that. "Kind" my ass.
Anon, Othinus is the kindest girl in the world.
You have to remember that she literally fucking mindbroke Touma. She did unbelievably cruel things to him and now he's got some extreme Stockholm syndrome. Also a lot of the anons here are vehement Toumafags who love to think he's more knowledgeable than he actually is.
You don't have any proof of the girls's personalities changing.
Maybe Kamisato is right and they did.
Maybe Touma is right and the girls love Kamisato for who he is.
One argument or the other being more convincing doesn't make it true.
>The girls lost their personalities, for god's sake.
And his best examples are literally girls he had never met before or hasn't talked with for years.
Kamisato is full of shit.
You guys forgot the most important thing about this chapter.
>A sound like a dry branch breaking rang through the night.
>It had come from Kamisato Kakeru’s neck.
>He had been unable to crack that joint before, but he had just forced it with a powerful swing of his head and the same grinding as a manual transmission’s gearstick reached his entire palm.
He finally got it.
Also another thing that I noticed when I was reading the last chapter. It described Patricia as a ten-year old year but I thought she was the younger twin sister of Leivinia so shouldn't she be 12?
Anybody have that /a/ chart of brown-skin girls with labels like "Bedouin Dreams" etc.
Both their speculations are groundless. That's the point. The only thing you could do now (aside from create another world where he doesn't have WR) is confirm it with the actual girls themselves but Kamisato's too much of a coward to do that.
It's similar to how Touma just assumed everyone would get mad at him for rejecting the ideal world to save himself. Mikoto obviously gave him shit for that because that's not his to assume. The others have their own will so they're the only ones who can decide for themselves how they think.
>He wants something genuine but he's too afraid of what will happen if it turns out to be fake so he's convincing himself that it's been fake from the start.
He is being realistic. If suddenly a thousand of girls started to love you would you honestly believe they've fallen for your charms? Of course not.
I thought Kamisato was a parody of harem MCs, but he might just be a realistic take instead.
You know, considering we haven't had any flashbacks to Kamisato's backstory, it's not like we can really say that one boy or the other is necessarily correct in this scenario. We don't have enough to go off of.
>If suddenly a thousand of girls started to love you would you honestly believe they've fallen for your charms? Of course not.
That depends on your self-esteem, anon, which Kamisato seems to lack completely.
They don't, Neph says it herself I believe. It's amazing how this fagget completely ignores this. The magic gods have no idea who Kamisato is and that he has this power but somehow for no reason they changed the personalities of the all the girls he interacts with.
That's what the reasonable anons have been saying, we have no proof for either side, but given the choice I'd like to be positive and assume your underlying personality might have been a part of it.
That's what I think too. Why the fuck does Kamisato thinks they've had their personalities overwritten when he never talked with them in first place? All WR did was give them a chance to interact with each other.
Well, if you were too much of a coward to actually engage any of the girls and it was because of external circumstances/tragedies that forced you to take action and start to engage them, then yes, I believe that it was because of his charm separate from WR.
The key thing here is Kamisato was afraid to engage the girls. He's afraid to talk to them. How the fuck will you know what they're thinking? How will they know who you are if you don't present yourself? How will they know your story (narrative identity) and how will you know their story if you just stand at the sidelines without connecting to them?
Other people or the gods may have caused the tragedies that sparked the meeting between the two but in the end, it's the person's choice on what to do. Even if Kamisato didn't have WR, he still would not abandon them. That's the important thing that he doesn't realize and what the girls like.
The Magic Gods just hang out in their secret club all the time, but still inadvertently affect the world nonetheless without meaning to. It's not unbelievable that they subconsciously created another protagonist to take the place of the one they began to lose faith in. Is that what actually happened? Who knows.
Nevermind, I found it. The browness of Nephtys seem to change in every colored illustration she is in.
This is what high priest was talking about, Even in the other dimension their magic still has subtle effects on the world. They are all powerful but not all knowing and they are not in complete control. imagine if you were a reality warper and every time you felt anyway about anything it happened. If MG's needed to eat food would materialize every time they got hungry. They can't turn their powers off and just because they had some doubts about touma they created WR without knowing it. Kamisato is basically killing them for because they are a large scale version of himegami or the elf from Norse ss.
I'm leaming on Touma being right simply because Kamisato has shown that exact same trait that made people like Touma, he has that same willingness to help out someone in need, it may have been hidden away before he got WR, but now that he gained some power and opportunity those girls he saves and was classmates with, finally got a chance to see and fall for his cool side
Even if Hamazura has a harem, the comparison sort of falls flat when it can't compare in terms of scale. He and Item are just counted as a part of the greater Kamijou Faction, whereas the harem here makes up the Kamisato Faction that supposedly has the potential to rival said Kamijou Faction.
>Elf from Norse ss
Her name is Alfar, she's best girl
>“It’s true I didn’t gain this power because I wanted it. If I could rid myself of it now, I would. And I do need to pay a visit to the Magic Gods who forced it onto me.”
>Kamisato spat out his response.
>“But that doesn’t mean I can abandon someone who needs help.”
Well gee, I wonder why the girls like you if you'd do something like that even without a special power. Surely it's because of brainwashing. At least he's not hating science because of roller coasters and self-flagulation.
No one's personalities were changed. The people who claim this don't understand Kamisato's argument at all.
What Kamisato's saying isn't that the Magic Gods directly changed the personalities of these girls. What Kamisato's arguing is that the existence of World Rejector is what changed them. From Kamisato's point of view, his possession of World Rejector and the actions that resulted from it are what changed those girls.
For instance, if Kamisato were just a normal person, none of them would have taken notice of them. But because he awoke to a strange power and was made to stand on the center stage, the girls flocked to him. Because his power placed him in a situation to save these girls, and he acted in reaction to that situation, the girls fell for him. At the same time, he argues that if he didn't have World Rejector, none of this would have happen.
So it's not that someone's actively changing anyone's personalities. Kamisato's argument is purely an issue of cynicism. There is no reason for these girls to care about Kamisato. The reason they do is because he has this power. The power itself doesn't actively do anything to them, but its presence, the fact that he possesses it and is able to save people with it is what changed those girls.
"The only reason these girls love me is because of the power that resides in my right hand. If it weren't for that, then they wouldn't care." That's the argument.
ITEM isn't really part of the Kamijou faction, it's just that Hamazura would in most cases listen to Touma, NT12 proved he doesn't always and if it came down to it there's no chance Saiai and co would listen to Touma over him.
Kamisato has reason at his side, though.
Touma's hope is nothing but wishful thinking and self-justification in this case.
Meanwhile Kamisato is destroying the Magic Gods in the hope it will the girls back to normal.
Kamisato's hope is selfless and pure, meanwhile Touma's hope is selfish and twisted.
>Kamijou Touma did not know how much weight his own existence held in other people’s hearts.
>After seeing everyone smiling happily in a world without him, he had honestly assumed it must not have held much weight at all.
>No matter how far he went, he was nothing more than a normal high school boy.
>There were six billion people in the world, so he had felt there had to be tons of people who could do what he could and tons of people who could do even better things.
>“That doesn’t matter /return.” The Will’s muttered words seemed to cut off his thoughts. “It may have been something simple that anyone could do /return. It may have been a coincidence that you were the one that came across it and anyone else might have made the same choice if they had been there /return. If A and B were swapped out and someone else had saved them, they might have ended up surrounding someone else /return.”
>She spoke of a truly trivial fact that meant nothing to the world as a whole.
>“But at that time and in that place, the one who recklessly ran in and saved them was you /return. Even if anyone could have done it, it was you that actually did it. And everyone is thankful /return.”
Even after that long speech from Will-tan, Touma still doesn't understand how loved he is by people
Not quite, Kamisato is in fact arguing that the Magic Gods have changed the world to better suit him as well. See;
Can you allow the world to revolve around a single person, where everything is overwritten for that one person’s convenience without a thought given to anyone else’s situation? Can you, Kamijou Touma!? I didn’t want to be the center of all these girls’ attention. I was fine not speaking with my childhood friend and not having any real connection to that shy gardening club member in my class. The normal scenery surrounded me where normal people freely used their normal hearts. I was satisfied living as a mere part of that!! But!! Those Magic Gods interfered!! They were probably grinning as they discussed it. They were probably saying they’d make me popular to make up for the complicated role they were forcing onto me. They probably thought it was a small thank you, a bit of an extra reward. That’s all. That’s all? That’s all it took to twist people’s thoughts and emotions to your will!? Those gods would be forgotten to history if no one worshiped them and thy have the nerve to invade the human heart!!!!?”
He does think they were changed.
The sad thing is that Kamisato is probably right.
Of course, he could always ask the girls if they cared before, but because he has World Rejecter any answer he can get would be twisted by its existence.
>What Kamisato's arguing is that the existence of World Rejector is what changed them.
That argument is even more stupid. World Rejector is power that came from IB. If that argument were true than IB would changing personalities as well since they're more or less the same power.
Dude is just deluded as fuck.
>Boundless pessimism = Realism
Lots of things changed when he got WR, it doesn't have to be that WR itself changed the girls, the way he acted might have changed the way they acted about him.
One point I can't help but wonder is how exactly Kamisato found out about magic gods in the first place and came to this conclusion. Touma has actually fought against, interacted with and talked to the magic gods, Kamisato does not seem to have done anything like that.
Kamisato believes IB is changed the personalities of Touma's harem too, that's why he came to him hoping to find someone who could understand his pain.
Instead, he found someone who shitted on his beliefs and said he was glad he was granted that power by the Magic Gods, and that he should be glad too.
Well Kamisato has at least fought against them if not much interacting. He erased Niang Niang just last volume and apparently a bunch of others. I don't know how he came to learn of them though. Maybe someone in his harem told him.
But they didn't do that. That's just his own speculation. The speculation that he believes to be true. I mean, the Magic Gods weren't even aware of him or his adventures. Yes, perhaps, MAYBE they inadvertently twisted things so that the world centered around him. But there's really no proof of that whatsoever, is there? If not even the Magic Gods can answer that question, how can he?
Ultimately, the girls probably aren't being manipulated. Kamisato doesn't believe that killing the Magic Gods will turn the girls back to normal. That's not what he's saying at all. To him, the damage has already been done.
It's like a classic fantasy hero situation.
Let's say, for instance, that a normal person came upon a magical sword. The magical sword is the only thing that can slay a great evil. That normal person uses the magical sword to defeat that great evil and save the world. As a result, he is beloved and praised as a hero. But if he didn't have that sword, he would just be a normal person, no different from anyone else. Thus, the love and praise he receives, as well as all his accomplishments, are artificial. He's not the one who deserves that praise and love. It was all because of the sword. The sword is what gave him the power to save the world. He just happened upon it, that's all.
And that's where Kamisato's argument lies. He believes that the affection that these girls have for him is purely artificial. Because this bullshit magical sword that can slay a great evil exists, everyone around him praises him like the second coming of Jesus. To him, that's wrong. The sword itself is something that shouldn't exist, because it creates undeserved love and praise. Whoever takes hold of that sword will inadvertently become the center of the world because he has become the only one capable of saving it. In his eyes, that's wrong and unnatural.
>hungry as fuck
>your bro next door disappeared and some faggot is responsible
>said faggot tries to throw a pity party for himself by forcefully inviting you as the guest
>drags you out the window while potentially threatening your comrades
>he cries about having girls like him and blames some magic gods that supposedly brainwashed them
>he doesn't actually talk or interact with the girls to know what they think but he assumes this is true
>he doesn't consider that the girls started falling for him once he started interacting with them
>he even said that he'll save them even without a special power
I'd be pissed too. At least invite the guy to a restaurant and treat him to some food before throwing the pity party for yourself.
We actually have proof then, Touma met a few people we knew before he met them. Kuroko for instance doesn't seem to have changed. Saten hasn't changed either. Last order as well.
>Kamijou is glad that he has a harem and Kamisato isn't.
Are you even reading, Touma doesn't know he has a harem.
I don't think Kamisato thinks that he's just loved by a great number of girls because he happened to be the one to pull the sword like you said. That might be part of it, but the main reason he's so upset is because he thinks the Magic Gods purposefully changed the girls' personalities to like him more. That they gave him a Nanaya gland or the like that just makes anyone arbitrarily fall in love with him to "make up for" giving him WR.
I don't think he'd be so upset if he didn't think that part of it, he doesn't mind saving people, he says he must do it, he just thinks they all couldn't possibly love him for his own personality and acheivements and it's because he has an elaborate love potion cologne of some sort on him.
He still doesn't understand that he's loved but at least he's not as as self-deprecating as Kamisato
>Calm down, Kamijou told himself.
>He had been presented with this question more than enough during his fight with full-power Othinus. He had been told again and again that, had he not saved the girls and someone else had instead, they would have followed that other person and not him. He had been told the good will turned his way was nothing more than that.
>But he had overcome that.
>He would not be swallowed up by a comparison like that.
Touma's desire to save people gets him through these types of things.
Yes, I checked.
Crowley supposedly met Aiwass when the Book of Law was created, which is also the moment that Raildex Crowley claims to have ended the Aeon of Osiris and started the Aeon of Horus.
Additionally, let's consider something here.
Why, exactly, does Kamisato believe that the Magic Gods are to blame here? Let's put aside the fact of whether they actually are for a sec. There's a glaring issue with all of this.
Where did Kamisato learn about the Magic Gods? How did he come to the conclusion that they were at fault for all this? That they were the ones who twisted his world and turned it upside down? How did he come to the conclusion that the Magic Gods twisted the world around him and made him into their guinea pig or whatever?
Because let's be real here. Kamijou Touma has had his right hand for sixteen years. He didn't even know that magic existed until he met Index. It took half a year for him, between his memory loss and the end of World War 3, to learn that Magic Gods even existed. And up until just a few volumes ago, he didn't even KNOW that there were other Magic Gods. In fact, not even Othinus knew about them.
So where did this information come from? How did he come to hate the Magic Gods?
Who is manipulating things from behind the scenes to create this conflict for their own purposes? SOMEONE found Kamisato. SOMEONE told him that the Magic Gods were the source of his power. SOMEONE told him that the world was twisted by the Gods to center around him. SOMEONE told him how and where to find the Magic Gods, to destroy them one after the other. SOMEONE told him about the Imagine Breaker and the boy who wields it and directed Kamisato to Academy City.
The answer's rather obvious, isn't it?
That was somewhat implied but Kamisato didn't expand on it and he might have lived around girls who were secretly from the magic side and/or gemstones without knowing. Patricia lives her normal life without knowing about Levinia so it's possible. I'm not jumping to any conclusions about that either especially when he didn't say anything besides that they were normal before he got WR. If he straight up said "and suddenly Claire gained the ability to grow plants from herself" and she wasn't just hiding it from him I'd start to believe him.
In the end, Kamisato's whole argument reeks something fierce. And I'm not talking about its validity. Maybe he's right, maybe he's not. That's not what I'm talking about.
Kamisato's words have all the hallmarks of someone who heard something from someone else, took those words to heart, allowed those words to shape his very foundations, and repeat those words to those who would oppose him. There is literally no way Kamisato could have come to these conclusions on his own. SOMEONE must have nudged him in this direction, guided him to this point.
Bit of a strench and reeks of self-justification. It would be EASY for Kamisato to believe, but the fact he didn't believe tells a lot about his strength of character. Kamisato could easily believe in this lie and give up.
Kamisato's basically parroting arguments someone else taught him and responds with malice, vitriol and absolute rejection the moment someone else brings up an opposite viewpoint, telling them that they should die and seeing them as lesser than himself for taking on an opposing stance.
This. He has literally hundreds of girls in days or weeks at most, some of them being plants wouldn't be too surprising, but I think the three we saw are probably going to stick with him and maybe eventually convince him they like him for who he is and not just WR.
>implying his entire life wasn't just Laura keikaku, meaning he will eventually listen to Touma's BS and believe in the lie just to be betrayed in the end and look like a fool for believing a normal highschool boy like him could attract them, cementing Laura as a magnificent bitch who destroyed Touma's ridiculous POV for once
I don't think a guy who thinks the girls have been brainwashed into liking him is going to expect them to betray him. He might expect that to happen after he kills the magic gods in a sort of "told you it was them" manner, but not before.