Is it me or did the Fourth Holy Grail war feel more like a war

Well yeah. After all, the participants of the Fifth were too young. Everyone thought that the next war would take place 60 years later when everyone was an adult rather than 10 years.

>>122605491
Well, you know, one had to be a VN with all that implies. An LN can cut out all the chaff and stuff, plus it helps that the major players are mostly vetted adult mages in their prime rather than Shirou who needs training wheels.

>>122605778
>Well, you know, one had to be a VN with all that implies
That implies nothing, stop talking like you know shit

>>122605821
It implies that it has to follow a single character through all the day end every single interaction as opposed to just focusing on the fighting

>>122605491
>reading F/SN for the grail war.
You probably didn't enjoy the VN, especially HF, if that's all you're looking for.

>>122605491

Fifth war was kind of a mess. Most of the contestants were too young and unprepared. Shirou and Kuzuki got in by accident, Rin was prepared but she's a nice girl who was acquainted to most of the participants, Shinji is useless and a joke, Sakura didn't want to fight, Kotomine didn't want the grail, Zouken was planning on skipping this round.

Illya was kind of the only one who was ready to fuck shit up.

>>122605491
Fourth was written as a standard war. Fifth is a really odd one.

>>122605491
Some battles in the VN are more climatic than anything in Zero, because the only really climatic battle in Zero was Kiritsugu vs. Kotomine and ultimately it was left unfinished for plot reasons.

>>122606668
>the Einzbern letting some outsider Magus Killer actas their Master
>secret alliance between the Church and a Magus
>some serial killer who doesn't know anything about the grail war letting his Servant loose

none of the Fuyuki Grail wars could be classified as standard, they all failed for various reasons. Well maybe except for the 4th and 5th one, they're both shut down by Emiya

>Destroy the grail with Excalibur
>Still shits all over town

Why?

>>122605491
>Is it me or did the Fourth Holy Grail war feel more like a war than Fate, UBW and HF?
F/Z is about a bunch of people fooled into the entire "Holy Grail War", all meeting terrible fates.
F/SN is about uncovering the hoax that is the Holy Grail War, while uncovering the ritual that is Heaven's Feel.

>>122605491
Ehh, I like the VN more. I prefer the atmosphere and its presentation. Also, I enjoyed how the whole thing feels like an uphill fight.Hollow Ataraxia is my favorite though

>>122606950

Both FZ and FSN are about a bunch of people fooled into the grail war, and in both the truth is uncovered by the end by the main characters/audience.

Fist fight is much better than Batcave

>>122607000
really not concerning Fate/Zero

Kerry learns that the Grail is cursed, but he doesn't know by what, how it happened, why it happened. He doesn't learn the real motivations of the Three Families.

>>122607000
Kiritsugu never knew shit. All he found out was that the grail was a bitch and he didn't like it.

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>>122607019
They could have made it better. They could have made them both shirtess

>>122606351
Lots of VNs have multiple POVs, like I said you know shit

>>122607019
Animeonlyfags, plz

>>122607088
>>122607117

My bad, what I was trying to say is that in both series, discovering the truth behind the grail war is not the primary objective, but rather a result of the MC's trying to fight in the war. Their goal was never uncovering the truth behind the ritual. Kerry never finds out, but the audience does.

>>122605491
You don't read F/SN after read F/Z or watch any adaptation at all. It shines the most when you read the thing with absolutely no knowledge beforehand.

The 5th war would've probably been more like the 4th had Bazett and Caster's initial master not gotten fucked early on.

5th war was more a psychological battle and more close combat then the 4th and in a way I like it a lot more and the conflicts are more interesting due to being more personal.

>>122607209
>in both series, discovering the truth behind the grail war is not the primary objective
This is just plain wrong though. It was very much a thing in F/SN.

>>122607243

When? Shirou's objective was never finding that out. Rin suspected something behind the scenes, but she didn't care because it suited her goals anyway.

>>122607209
>discovering the truth behind the grail war is not the primary objective
That's only for the masters families that aren't Kariya and Tokiomi, hell you could even say Kotomine did it to learn what the Grail really was since Risei basically clued him in before since Risei was the 3rd war church mediator.

>>122607000
Except Kerry never 'found out' instead he went through the whole damn thing sacrificing his waifu and friend with benefits/partner in murder and only found out something was wrong when the grail woke up and picked him as most eligable wish maker.

Ofc then it rubbed in his face how fucking stupid his dream was and Kerry's life went down the toilet.

>>122607339
>That's only

Name one participant in either war whose goal was discovering the truth of the ritual.

>>122607339
Addendum.
Even if you look at F/SN, Kotomine again did it to know the Grail's true power and Angra Mainyu's potential as well as Shinji.

>>122605491
The fifth war was an accident. Of course it didn't feel like a war, it wasn't one. Only one of the masters actually wanted the Grail, most of the others got pulled into it because the Grail needs seven masters, regardless of whether or not who it chooses wants to fight.

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While we're on the topic, there is also a certain tension that lacks in Zero

I'm well aware that some of the very first confrontations in both stay night and zero result sometimes in nothing, but at least stay night never had 6 Servants in the same place resulting in one of them walking away injured and all the others fine

I can forgive it a little more for stay night since it's character-driven as well as plot-driven. Of course Kerry does have some good characterization as well, but a lot of it was lost from the light novel, and I doubt people like OP even read it. The result is that the main character feels a bit too distant to the audience for the first half of the anime. While you may call that a failure of the adaptation, it's also true in some respect of the LN, where until his backstory is explained, his utilitarianism will seem over the top

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>>122607432
Which is why it's no wonder a lot of Japanese watchers got disappointed by the 5th HGW.

>>122606573
Bazett was prepared but kotomine killed her

>>122606904
The lesser grail was just allowing for a connection to the other side. The anus in the sky is the real thing that needs to be destroyed.

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>>122607965
well yeah, honestly she would have been the biggest threat to him

>>122606904
saber destroyed only the water pipe but not the water itself

Having just finished Zero, I'd have been kicking myself for days afterwards if I'd watched it before reading the VN, particularly HF.

Kotomine is so fucking amazing in it when you know what his deal is.

>>122608072
Well, duh.

You'd need to be a major retard to read a prequel before the original

Shirou wanted to save everyone
Rin wanted to be a winner
Sakura didnt want to fight
bazett wanted to save the blue man
Ilya realizes she want oniichan
Assassin's master died
caster already knows what the grail is and just wants to be with soichiro

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>>122608504
do you want a medal?

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>>122608504
>Shirou wanted to save everyone
That's not Shirou's reason for fighting in the grail war
>bazett wanted to save the blue man
She's kinda bad at doing that

>>122608724
>Shirou's reason for fighting in the grail war
Stopping the conflict is saving everyone.

>>122605491
Urobuchi can't depict characters like Nasu does
He doesn't love people
That's why I find F/SN to be more fulfilling experience than Zero, even if it was too long and pacing was bad, it has shitty porn, there were things that could have been done better. But it was Nasu's Fate/stay night.
I think it's insulting to say things like "I want my preffered author to rewrite the work of other author with different mindset because I didn't like it".

>>122608504
>Assassin's master died
What? This one just doesn't look right.
>caster already knows what the grail is and just wants to be with soichiro
You know, it's most likely true, but I never thought about this one. But is it ever confirmed?
Everything else is fine.

>>122608807
Shirou's inital reason for joining the grail war and not quitting and being bazerkah'd was to minimize casualties general and keep any masters from doing shit that would drag innocents in. That was his motivation and reason to join and participate in most of the grail war.

Saving everyone does not come up in the slightest untill the very end it's not the reason he went along with it.

Unless your refering to Kerrys ideals and his psychopathic obcession with them.

>>122609140
>Saving everyone does not come up in the slightest untill the very end it's not the reason he went along with it.

Minimizing casualties and keeping masters from doing evil shit is his way of attempting to save everyone. He can't, and he knows he can't. but he is determined to try.
Kerry doesn't want to try to save everyone. He's just trying to save the most with the least amount of sacrifices.

>>122609245
>Kerry doesn't want to try to save everyone. He's just trying to save the most with the least amount of sacrifices.
Well, technically he wants to end all human conflict

>>122609245
Kerry only joined the grail war because he wanted to use the grail for a retarded wish.

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>>122607214
Also because Nasu is a hack and the Butcher is clearly a better writer.

>>122609385
go away

>>122609064
>What? This one just doesn't look right.
Yeah, I don't get it either.
Fake assassin: No will, just wants a good fight. Real assassin: Wants to be THE ONE.
>You know, it's most likely true, but I never thought about this one. But is it ever confirmed?
Yes, HA goes over it a second time. Also, Carnival Phantasm references it repeatedly.

>>122605491
I think it was a matter of audiences. FSN was geared towards kids in high school, hence the Shirou self-insert and harem. Zero feels like it was geared towards the same audience who first read FSN but now are adults.
I thought FZ had better writing than FSN.

>>122609427
>FSN was geared towards kids in high school, hence the Shirou self-insert and harem
FSN was for otaku, the same ones that bought TM's other porn games

>>122609385
>Butcher
>not a hack

>>122609427
zero was the same tripe for teens

Having more gore, sex and viokence doesnt make it more adult

>>122609508
just don't reply to him

>>122609508
FSN was specifically designed as a dual-audience "game", that's why it translates so well to PG-13 in Realta Nua. Otaku street cred from TH etc just got them off the ground.

I know it's bait but I'm correcting what you said for the sake of lurkers.

>>122609013
Except most characters in FSN had no development or screentime which is pretty fucking strange considering how fucking huge FSN is

>>122609299
Yeah by destroying humanity. God Kerry was a fucktard.

>>122609933
Are you retarded, son?

>>122605491
Eppic thread.

Sasuga fate fags

>>122605491
because it's not the story of grail war, is the story about Emiya Shirou

>>122609933
What?
The second he figured out Grail will destroy humanity, he bailed the hell out. He's a retarded idealist, but he's not a complete psychopath.
He just wanted genuine world peace. And the thing is, if Einzberns didn't screw everything up so badly in the last war with their special snowflake Avenger, he would've gotten it too.

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>>122605491
I'm 60 posts late, I know.

>>122610053
Kerry literaly can't picture world-peace by any other method.
An untainted grail wouldn't have done jack-shit

>>122610096
OK, confirmed for retarded.

>>122609868
>Except most characters in FSN had no development or screentime

Did we read the same VN

>>122610096
>Kerry literaly can't picture world-peace by any other method.
Exactly - he can't even comprehend world peace so he needed a miracle.

>>122610096
The Real Grail as an access to the Root can basically reach the records of all of existence. So if you can just keep pumping magic into it, you can make your wish come true

>>122610177
I thought you didn't need the root to get a wish

You on;y need the root to perform the Materialization of the soul.

Am I the only one that watched F/Z before reading F/SN and still enjoyed both? As far as the "baaw baaw kids ;-;" goes, doesn't it make logical sense that everyone is young in F/SN if you watch F/Z first? So why the fuck would anyone who watched F/Z first for whatever reason complain about F/SN having kids in it when F/Z pretty much proves its logical? Unless you're a retard

>>122610177
Kerry would have to conceive a way of how to archive world peace.
Also the wish has nothing to do with the root.

>>122610158
Pretty much all the screentime is focused on the core characters and the rest get nothing.
Gil, Lancer, Rider, Assassin they probably get 30 minutes each of true screentime.
Caster and her master get nothing as actual characterization except for team rocket shit and one little scene.
Heck True Assassin who appear only in one route get better screentime and characterization than most of them which is pretty fucking weird.
Compared to other games of the genre that rubbish

>>122610248
>>122610298
the definition of the Greater Grail has always been a path to the Root. Whether or not someone will go to the Root, he needs the path for his wish

>>122610361
No that is wrong.
You need 6 dead servants for a wish and 7 for the root.

>>122610398
Yes that is my point, but the method by which a wish is given, is still by the Grail being connected to the Root

>>122610469
No it's just the tons of magical energy

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I wish there were more fullblown Master vs Master battles in FSN. Most of the time it's Servant vs Servant with Masters standing there as Pokemon trainers.

I really liked the Rin vs Ilya addition in the anime.

>>122609868
>Except
You want to argue? I'll bite
Development of Kerry and Saber it's that Urobuchi's set-up thing about rubbing into moralfags's faces what they're worth(according to Urobuchi). Avid Zerofags prefer Saber in Zero because she didn't have a moeblob side, but I don't think it ruined her anyhow in Stay night.
Kotomine's development in Zero is what we knew from HF explained to him by Gil. Is it better than his flashbacks in HF or his meaningful relationship with Shirou? While I enjoyed his appearances in Zero, his development in HF felt more emotional.
And he doesn't really serves as foil to Kiritsugu in the anime since ufotable didn't find a way to develop him like the novel does and cut a number of important scenes.
Waver's development is just tsundere growing up, I didn't even like him since he was there to make Rider look even better than he is.

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>he thinks the grail war is an actual war
This is what watching F/Z first gets you.

>>122610516
Kuzuki tried to murder Rin and Shirou as well
Caster tries killing other Masters

>>122610516
But there are tons of master vs master fights. Did you even read the VN?

>>122610516
>I really liked the Rin vs Ilya addition in the anime
That was absolute shit and directly contradicts Ilya's powerset in the VN just to produce a connection to Zero

>>122610516
Yeah it was nice to give a little something to Rin because she usually does jackshit outside of that one moment per route despite being the senior mage in their team.

>>122610053
Except how does he get world peace? Humanity by it's very nature is self destructive, self serving, violent, greedy and cruel to incredible degree. The only way the grail could fix that is to take away any and all negative emotions and instincts from humanity or kill em all.

Killing them all doesnt work because humanity cant be at peace because it's dead.

The other option takes away half of what makes human's 'human' in the first place so all you have left are a bunch of 'not humans' magically lobotomized to fufill Kerry's wish.

But hey if you can come up with a way to make humans stop killing raping and hurting each other emotionally and pysically on both the small and large scales without doing something so horrifically evil it makes history's greatest monsters look like saints then sure let's hear it.......

>>122610698
You wot. Rin's accomplishments almost outstrip Shirou's in every route.

>>122610274
I only watch mature anime for mature person like myself
Urobuchifags thinking that complaining about other writers is a way to praise him
And I thought Urobuchi liked F/SN

>>122610775
Who mentioned Rin?

That post was in respoce to >>122610053 claiming that hte uncorrupted grail would have granted his wish without doing anything bad like the corrupted one would have.

>>122610843
Pretty sure that anon wanted to quote >>122610697

>>122610630
>Kuzuki
>Rin bullying Shirou
>Kotomine vs Shirou x2
>Rin vs Sakura
That's about it.

>>122610843
I misreplied. Meant >>122610697

>>122610877
Shirou vs. Shinji in Fate.

>>122608504
what does Gilgamesh want? A certified heart surgeon?

>>122610877
And how many are there in Zero?
Kerry and Fast Wheels
Kerry and Kotomine
Tokiomi and Worms-kun
Any I'm missing? If we're counting 1-hit kills like Kerry and COOL and Kotomine and Tokiomi you may also count Kotomine and Bazett and Kotomine and Tohsaka on F/SN

>>122610529
>because she didn't have a moeblob side
Yet still managed to be incredibly moe regardless. How does she do it?

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>>122605491
>muh war
>muh epic battles

TM works should have never been animated.

>>122611068
I was a huge fan of FSN back in 2010, now I really want them to move along. It's not even about being a hipster, there's just so much Fate-related material it feels rotten.

>>122610775
Fate
>Her plan fails because God Hand, Shirou saves the day through asspull sword
>gets done in before final battle, Shirou saves the day

UBW
>kidnapped, Shirou and Lancer save the day
>acts as a mere power battery in the climax, Shirou, Archer and Saber save the day

HF
>fumbles against Sakura, Shirou saves the day

Her role is to come up with plans and give exposition.

>>122611014
FSN is 3 different wars though.

>>122611235
> there's just so much Fate-related material it feels rotten.
Yeah, Nasu really needs to stop milking Fate and either work on the remake never or a new IP.

>>122611258
UBW
>jobs to berserker
>fights assassin to a draw while her master's life is in jeopardy elsewhere
>fights some skeletons
>jobs to kuzuki
>gets stolen
>opts not to save her new master so she can watch her former master fight and gets lancer killed as a result
>fights assassin again while important things are happening elsewhere
>blows up the grail and dies

HF
>fights rider but she gets revived so it doesn't matter
>kills a caster that was going to die anyway and was putting up no resistance
>tries and fails to destroy shadow
>gets eaten by mud and becomes mostly irrelevant for the remainder of the route

Outside of her own route Saber isn't much more useful than Rin.

The fifth war is glitched and bugged to shit with the strongest servants ever summoned stomping around with absurdly powerful masters who have no idea what they're doing, it occurred 10 years early and the only two people who really know what's going on have been manipulating everything for their own amusement.

>>122611876
But what does Saber's role have to do with Rin not being that useful?

>>122611971
>The fifth war is glitched and bugged to shit with the strongest servants ever summoned
Medea proves your point wrong already.

just picked up Fate/Extra, what servant should I pick and do you guys have any tips?

>>122612138
Hope you like rock-paper-scissors

>>122612138
Male Hakuno and Caster. Dump everything in strength and magic.

>>122612138
Caster is hard mode, so Saber or Archer.

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>>122612138
>Picking anyone else but perfection

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>>122612112
There's only one Caster who isn't shit.
>>122612138
Have fun grinding.
The story is shit

>>122612138
The play order should be Saber > Archer > Caster but you can do whatever.

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You can take one Servant from the Fifth War and put him in the Fourth
War, replacing the 4th War Servant of that class.
Who do you choose?
What happens?

>>122612138
Archers more interesting.

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>>122612230
>There's only one Caster who isn't shit.
I know.

>>122612266
Lancer.

>>122612266
Lancer, he gay bulges everyone because he doesn't have a shit master anymore.

>>122612266
Lancer.
Saber dies in her first battle

>>122612138
If you go Caster, invest heavily in Magic and Constitution/Endurance. Don't raise Strength past D rank, and don't invest in Endurance past C. Caster's highest growth rates are in Magic, Agility, and Luck.

>>122612230
RUNES
U
N
E
S

>>122612266
>Looking at this chart I realize that Medusa can use Cybele to insta-kill all but Saber, Gil, and possibly Lancelot

Why the FUCK doesn't Shinji/Sakura ever have her use that shit, I get that it reveals that she's Medusa but it doesn't really matter as long as you kill the Servant/Master that sees you use it.

>>122612537
D rank Strength is pretty overkill when you combine it with Spirit Theft. Definitely glad I got it that high, but does C rank Strength make it even better? Or does it start to become diminishing returns?

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>>122612112
>>122612230
Medea is one of the strongest and most terrifying Casters around, her only flaw (and it is a crippling flaw) is that Magic Resistance is so common.

There is no standing against her if you cannot brush her spells away.

>>122613057
She's literaly the weakest servant in the 5th war.

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>>122613122

That just notes how fucking powerful everyone else in the 5th war is, reinforcing the initial point.

>>122613122
Not by raw strength because of her magic hax.

>>122613189
If she had the Colchis Dragon she would be in the middle of the power ranking

Because the fourth war had adult mages at their peak who were more skilled, knowledgeable and powerful. Less dumb kids like Ilya, Shirou, Rin and Shinji.

Don't get me started on how shitty and bland Stay's servants are by comparison. Rider sucks and got killed by a human. Caster is just a waifu. Assassin is stuck to one area.

Zero >>>>>>>> Stay

>>122613262

Considering the power rankings are vague as fuck anyway, that would probably place her above Archer and maybe Rider.
She's not strong for her war, but she's still goddamn strong.

>>122613262
I don't get how she is so weak when a lot of her spells are B rank at least and she has A rank Rain of Light.

Only Saber or Berserker can nullify any damage from most of her spells while everyone else couldn't even block B rank spells.

>>122613328
>more skilled, knowledgeable and powerful

More skilled and knowledgeable yes, more powerful no. With the given exception of Kotomine and Kayneth.
Kiritsugu was a specialist, but not particularly impressive in terms of capacity. Tokiomi sucked and Ryuunosuke was a civilian psychopath. Kariya was a dying cripple. Waver is bottom-of-the-line.

Contrast Kuzuki with mountain man assassin snake style, Rin with genius prodigy skills, and Shirou whose body is made of swords.

>>122612112
>Medea
>literally from the age of Gods where magic was close to being true magic
If the other fifth war servants weren't more overpowered, she'd be rampaging.

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>>122613328

>>122613179
Yeah, Rin was fucking overpowered as shit.

>>122613057
>>122613179
Anon, Medea is literally weaker than Gilles and is a low teir Caster.

>>122613432

We've never seen her engage someone in her Temple where she is strongest, a side effect of having Assassin guard the entrance to her Temple and nobody getting past Assassin.

>>122613478

What? Medea is far more powerful than Gilles.
Gilles has a single gimmick, an endlessly regenerating tentacle god. It works against some heroes but nowhere near all of them.

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>>122613478
You're not even trying at this point.

>>122613432
She won't even hit anyone else.
They are either too fast or/and on the same level of magic user as she is.

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>>122613587
>>122613606
Blame Nasu, she's officially weaker than Gilles.

>>122613897
>Koha Ace
>Nasu
Pick one

>>122613992
Koha-Ace is where Nasu introduces a bunch of canon shit in a joke format. The author is someone else but he gets his shit from Nasu.

>>122613897
>>122614050

In this case I'd guarantee it was just for the gag. Picking on Medea has become a running joke.

>>122614131
Doubt it. Medea has been referred several times as the weakest in the 5th war, not to mention she is already low teir by Nasu since she doesn't have the ability to summon dragons. Don't get me started on the prep time it takes for her to even get going.

>>122614050
Koha-Ace is as far from "canon" as you can get
It's a fucking joke-manga

>>122613639
Well she can cast gravity magic fast enough to instantly freeze saber in place, fly, and teleport at will. And she has the same agility rank as Saber who can at least move fast enough to not be completely overwhelmed by Rider's speed. It's like she never learned the art of kiting those annoying martials.

Also, doesn't she prevent Rider from being able to fight in Ubw, or was that Kuzuki's assassin skill?

>>122614388
It's a fucking joke manga that introduces canon shit from time to time. Are you pretending to be retarded?

>>122614472
That was just Kuzuki

>>122614484
What did it introduce?

>>122614563
Most of the servant's other classes, for example Caster Cu and Lancer Arthuria.

>>122614236
Medea is basically like a joker. She has her own servant, she has a badass master who can stand up to other servants, and she has a Noble Phantasm that lets her completely change the game.

She personally sucks in combat, but Casters tend to be more support-type servants so it's not really a surprise.

>>122614698
Caster Cu existing was something that was "introduced" in the VN.
Also I don't remember Lancer!Saibah existing

Why didn't Shirou dream of Saber in UBW or HF? I thought masters were supposed to share memories with their servants?

>>122614808
It's in Fate

>>122614698
Lancer said in the VN he could be summoned as Berserker or Caster.

>>122614776
>>122614880
I believe that anon means the design for Caster Cu, which was introduced in Koha-Ace.

>>122614808
Why Shirou dreams with Archer in UBW and not whit Saber ?

>>122606573
>Shirou [...] got in by accident
>Implying Shirou's participation was not the single most intentional event in the entire VN

Counter Force, nigga.

>>122614776
>Also I don't remember Lancer!Saibah existing
>not knowing about Rhongomyniad
What do you think killed Mordred? Excalibur?

>>122614808
Not always. From the 4th War, only Kayneth got his Servant's memories in a dream, for instance.

>>122615340
King Arthur having a spear doesn't translate to Lancer!Saibah existing.
In fact what does Koha-Ace have to do with it?

>>122615409
That Fate/Ace Royal game. Where it introduced the other classes for some servants.
I still don't believe Archer is capable of being a part of the Caster class but it's there.

>>122614914

And guess what? Nobody considered it canon until Grand Order.
Koha Ace is not a canon source.

>>122613478
>Gilles
>Stronger than anyone
He's a French knight who turned out to be batfuck crazy, hired a dude to "summon demons" for him, and dabbled in the rituals himself when he wasn't busy with hardcore kiddy fiddlin'. And the guy loved his kiddy time.

You'd be hard pressed to find a shittier candidate for Caster.

>>122615541
>You'd be hard pressed to find a shittier candidate for Caster.

Shakespeare and Hans Christian Andersen.

>>122615728
>Andersen
His NP can result in the greatest of catastrophes if used 'correctly'. Very much a wildcard.

>>122615810
Their ability as Casters was not what I was challenging, it was the fact that they even qualify for Caster in the first place. Much like Gilles, but at least he was accused of dabbling in black magic, even if the charges were probably bullshit.

>>122615523
Too bad that it was actually canon huh?

>>122616040

It wasn't canon until Grand Order made it so.
Just like Enkidu's appearance in Strange Fake (and Strange Fake as a whole) wasn't canon until Nasu made it so.

How good is the EMIYA theme going to be?

VN version is the best one, but -time alter- is probably second place, with Prisma third then Kenji Kawai fourth.

>>122616111
We've already heard it a few times during Archer's fight scenes. It just hasn't hit the melody where the piano kicks in.

>>122616111
>How good is the EMIYA theme going to be?
How the fuck are we supposed to know?
I actualy don't remember when it plays for the first time in UBW.
Was it for Archer vs. Shirou?
>>122616179
Archer's theme isn't EMIYA.
It just quotes the beginning

>>122616098
>implying Grand Order is canon
It's as canon as Capsule Servant.

>>122616295
>Implying Capsule Servant isn't canon

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>>122616295

Fuck off with your bullshit.

>>122616227

Clearly just asking for hypotheticals, but yea I'm pretty sure it plays at some random points of Archer being dope in Fate. Don't quote me on that though, its been a while.

>>122616227
>Archer's theme isn't EMIYA.
Why the fuck would it not be?

>>122616445
EMIYA is Shirou's theme in the VN.

>>122610516
>Most of the time it's Servant vs Servant with Masters standing there as Pokemon trainers.
Wasn't that kind of the three families' original intent though

>>122610177

The real Grail doesn't grant wishes by connecting to the Root, it connects to the Root to perform the Third True Magic. The lesser grail is the thing that is supposed to grant wishes, but that's just a lie made to encourage magi and Servants to participate in the war.

>>122616484

You seem to have forgotten a major point of the story, that being Archer's identity.

>>122613328
>Ilya,rin ,shirou and sakura
>Replicated the third and second sorcery
>dumb

>>122605491
Type Moon was always character driven, not story driven

>>122616445
Because we already get Archer's theme with this BD.

>Unlimited Blade Works 5:30
>Rin:Remembrance ~ Shoukan 2:35
>Archer 3:10
>Shirou:Akai Kioku ~ Invocation 2:01
>Face to Face 1:00
>Souls to Fight 3:39
>Storm 1:18
>Vortex of Fate 4:28
>Rin's Melody 1:03
>Daydream 1:45
>A Sword,No Words 1:51
>Purple Shade 2:19
>Into the Battles 1:26
>Arrow 0:32
>Rin:my wish 0:59
>Two Hearts 1:51
>Reason to Kill 1:24
>Fist of desperate ~ Awakening 4:27
>Dark Glow 2:52
>Unacceptable 1:55
>Rule Breaker 3:43
>Shirou:Nowhere to go 2:03
>Each Choices,Each Steps 5:39
>Far Away from You 2:10
>THIS ILLUSION 4:04
>count it from zero 4:34
>down in the zero 4:55
>>122616568
Doesn't stop them from having different themes.
Especialy in this adaption
>>122616576
Responding to bait

>>122616635

That in no way prevents his theme from being the first act of the overall song, which could be a ten minute piece for all we know.

>>122614916
Who wouldn't like to dream about a hottie like Archer?

Fate/stay night, Zero and hollow are all pretty fantastic if you ignore the shitty fanbase.

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>>122612138

>>122616111
UC version is underrated
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax4Ye-2cV60

>>122605491
Gen is a hack, interesting ideas but he's piss poor at executing them however I enjoyed Zero despite hating everything Type Moon that isn't Tsukihime or Kara no Kyoukai, Zero had its moments and was alright as a prequel since it had source material to go on which Gen did wonders with the adaptation. I'd say it's decent, not great or spectacular as everyone claims but it's certainly not terrible either.

As for being mediocre Fate/Zero is just the same Gen Urobuchi drivel using the same themes of despair he always does in all of his work to make them seem less vapid than they actually are, I wonder if he legitimately believes he's creating a work of art or not, I'm really confused on that one. He reminds me way too much of Christopher Nolan and his pseudo intellectualism.

>no one ever talks about Battle Moon Wars

That game has a GOAT OST

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d66KCh1S5L8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-KWUI4ypvs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWrjNhbmWq8

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>>122616961

It's not a real Type-Moon product.
It's fun and cheesy, but there's not much to discuss about it.
Haruna 2nd is easily the best track though.

What is your controversial Type-Moon opinion?

>>122617180
I don't like Rider

>>122617180

I think Alexander is a terrible, annoying, insufferable idiot of a character.

>>122617180
It all makes sense.

>>122617180
I don't care for Saber but I fucking hate people that throw around the word "cuck."

>>122617180
Ryougi is a Mary Sue.

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>>122617180
UBW is the worst route.

>>122617180
Fate wasn't that bad.

>>122617180
Sakura is my favourite heroine.

>>122617180
I love all of the TM characters and works without any major complaints.

>>122617180
Gil is the most badass hero ever.

>>122617180
Ilya is an insufferable character
KnK isn't that good
Shikifags are the worst part of the fandom

>>122617180
Waver is ugly

>>122617180
Saber is not best girl.

>>122617261
That's not controversial at all. It's just a couple of really dedicated shitposters.

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>>122617180
No Rider-class Servant has been good.

>>122617180
I used to be a bit TM fag in 2006-7 or so but now I just can't understand what people see in it

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>>122617344
>I love all of the TM characters and works without any major complaints.
That's great, but I don't understand how you can do that.

>>122617407
Not even Ozymandias?

>>122617364
That's not being "controversial".
It's just having shit taste.

>>122617418
What did you like about it and when did it start losing its charm?

>>122617418
Boobs, lore, and power levels.

>>122617180
I hate Shirou and TohnoShiki as characters.

They're pretty much cardboard boxes in personality.

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>>122617180
Hisui's route was the only good route.

>>122617180
Anything after the initial Fate trilogy is awful.

>>122617447
Shikifags are pretty terrible though, if we're talking about that one guy who will not shut up about Tohno killing servants.

>>122617468
I was really really into Tsukihime when I read it back then and it was one of the reason I learned Japanese (I tried rereading it one year ago or so and it's pretty amazing that I actually managed to go through that but that's another story) and FSN is one of the very first I read in japanese (it was hard but fulfilling)

But now when I see something Fate related it just seems trite, I reread part of FSN not long ago and honestly I wouldn't even put it in my top 50 eroge

>>122617623
>if we're talking about that one guy who will not shut up about Tohno killing servants.
>one guy
This is a joke, right?

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>>122615728
Shakespeare has First Folio, right? A reality dictator seems like a tool with a lot more overall utility than CTHULHU FHTAGN
Plus Willie's a baller.

>>122617693
You can always recognize him by his propensity to remind everyone about Nanaya Kiri fighting Kishima Kouma (nevermind that Kiri failed and died in that fight).

>>122617700
See >>122615961

>>122617180
I think caster is a whore.

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>>122617700
Those stats though...

>>122617754
Opinions not Facts

>>122617548
Kohaku route is the side B of Hisui route

>>122617180
Nasu isn't a hack, Sakura is a good character, and people bitch too much especially about how only the first entries to the series are good and anything beyond that is just a cashcow being a shitty hack that aren't worth checking out.

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>>122617761
After this guy with stats like these managed to become the end boss in one story, no else has the right to complain about stats mattering.

People don't expect Dio to be the villain, but then every arc of Jojo happens. It's all about how you use it.

>>122617180
The church in Fate is a iconic symbol of hatred for the christian faithful.

>>122617180
It's dogshit, but I still enjoy it.

>>122618167
Nasu loves that Christian mythology, but the Priest just happened to be the bad guy this time. Even then he wasn't really bad, Ciel was a good guy, and Karen was also good. It's why the entire Fate story is sort of built on this sort of stuff, with Jesus cup.

Also loves Indian mythology, and a few other types in particular.

>>122610529
>and FSN is gigantic while FZ is not

>>122618287
More Greek mythology when? I want Zoos to be a hero obsessed with fucking anything that moves.

>>122618360
It is.

>>122618361
Typhon > Your shit

>>122618361
You can summon gods

>>122618482
>born from a titan
>giving Gods a literal run for their money

Pretty sure Typhon > all the collective shits of mankind.

>>122618497
>on the moon
fixed

>>122618497
Only if Extra gets another sequel, will it be possible

That's the only war where they can appear.

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Adaptations of superior grail wars when?

>>122619369
Is that strange/fake?

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>>122619490

>>122619490
Prototype IIRC.

>>122619526
>>122619544
Oh, it's that prototype trash.

>>122619526
>>122619369
>Prototype
>anything but trash

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>>122616961
I still play it from time to time, it's still as fun as when I first played it.

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>>122605491
I only read the Fate Route.
Why is Saber so perfect?

>>122619839
Because you haven't read the other routes.

>>122619839
Poor soul, you don't know yet of the Heaven's feel struggle.

>>122619839
Fate is the route where Saber's character is at her worst.

>>122619839
Please read the other routes
Fate is trash

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>>122619839
Because she's by far the cutest girl. Read the other routes, although there is less romance Saber gets even better.

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>>122619839
Because you have shit taste

>>122619839
Read the other routes and then come back. If you still think she's the best after you've read them you need better taste.

>>122620357
I read the other routes and still think Saber is best. Rin is too passive aggressive and Sakura is dirty laundry.

>>122612266
Everyone knows Lancer can win all by himself with just his Gae Bolg spam and not even counting his runes.

>>122620722
He can't win against Saber, Gil or Medusa though.

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>>122619839
Rin's better.

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>>122620802
>Can't win against Saber
Well if Saber has Avalon sure, but then she wins against everyone
>Gil
Agreed
>Medusa
Explain

>>122620802
>can't win against Saber
That's wrong though.

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>defending F/Z
There's a reason secondaries and newfriends are more drawn to F/Z than F/SN. It has nothing to do with production, as UBW more than matches F/Z, Characters, or setting. F/Z fans think that the show is refreshing. That compared to something as generic and typical as F/SN, F/Z is far more original and interesting, free of conventional harem hijinks that F/SN is full of. It has guns, violence, gore and bloodshed. So bold and mature. What's not to love?

These things are lost on someone who's read Butch since before he was normalfag famous with dokes and shit. Someone who's read Kikoukugai and SnU and Inferno and what not realizes that F/Z wasn't original, wasn't creative, but just a rehashing of those old ideas, done worse. Meanwhile, F/SN is an amazingly significant work in hindsight. Compared to the eroge of the 90s, it was one of the first to try and incorporate a dense mythology along with dating sim elements, and to shift the emphasis to the plot from the characters. It was not generic, but archetypal, spawning many imitators, which is why there are so many similar Eroge. In addition, though F/SN is campy and sometimes has heavy shifts in tone, it spends more time developing its characters than F/Z, and doesn't jam in unnecessary drama and gore where it isn't needed. Ryuunosuke's character was literally all shock factor, and Kotomine's motivations in F/Z are confusing at best, Contrived at worst. Saber had virtually no character outside of serving kerry- few of the servants did.

That's ultimately why so many secondaries prefer F/Z. F/Z fags see it as a unique, creative show with a dark twist, compared to the generic crap that is F/SN. F/SN fags see F/SN as a genre defining work, F/Z as a shitty grimdark cashgrab. It's all a matter of perspective, lack of knowledge by the secondaries, and a little bit of shit taste.

>>122620660
>Rin is too passive aggressive
What?

>>122620802
>or Medusa though.
>Muh mystic eyes, he'd be dead in seconds, 10000x confirmed

Actually Nasu says Medusa is entirely fucked in that fight

>Rider vs. Lancer
>Nasu-san CHECK!
>The two boasting the most outstanding speed in the game. Rider, able to move like a bullet and race around the battle field vs Lancer, able to counter attackers with a lance with the speed of gods, while standing still. In average speed, Rider is faster, but in immediate maximum output, Lancer will win. >While Rider has several different types of Noble Phantasms, Lancer also has protective ability from rune sorcery, hence counter measures from her mystic eyes. Against an expert monster exterminator like Lancer, one who has a monster alignment such as Rider might seem to be in for a tough fight....!?

>>122620802
I give you Gil
He can easily win against Medusa
He also has a pretty good chance against Saibah

>>122620967
RUNES
U
N
E
S

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>>122620967
The solution is ALWAYS runes

Goddamn I want to see Caster Cu

>>122620967
I see, well then I was wrong on Medusa.

>Fate Fags don't want to admit that Fate/zero was the better overall series because it's by a different and better writer.

One day you're going to have to accept the fact that it's better.

>>122620802
Saber can only win if given a master who, she can drain plenty of prana from. Were talking about Lancer, the guy who stood toe tot toe with Gil for hours without end.

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>>122620967
Runes solve everything, confirmed.

>>122620967
>one who has a monster alignment such as Rider might seem to be in for a tough fight....!?
A tough fight is not an unwinnable fight, though it's clear that Lancer has the advantage.

>>122621052
Fate/Zero was better

as a B-Movie

>>122621052
I've read damn near everything by Butch
Read PoI and tell me he's a better writer. Do it, seriously. Try not to laugh your ass off.

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>>122605491
>Is it me or did the Fourth Holy Grail war feel more like a war than Fate
Every fucking time.
Every fucking time people forget that the 5th came 40 years too early, nobody was prepared after the disaster of the 4th and that random fucks were chosen to be masters for the most part in the 5th.
Holy shit pay attention I'm fucking BEGGING you.

>>122621047
Gotta read up on those potential match-ups

> Archer vs. Assassin
>If it's a straight out death match, then Archer will win. But Assassin is an oddity that fights under different battle conditions from the other Servants. While many Servants are offensive, Assassin is defensive. At a Servant-killing battlefield like Ryuudouji and with Caster's anti-sorcery defensive barrier, sorcery and Noble Phantasm power is decreased significantly. As a result, if it's not a powerful Noble Phantasm, then he won't take a fatal wound. Which means that the battle between the two is clearly swordsmanship. With Archer having his sniping sealed off to him due to the terrain effect, could Archer actually lose...?

>Archer vs Rider
>If you think about it, Archer will win, but at long range, Rider would be? Just like that question, their compatibility is not very good. Since both aren't fixated on the methods of winning, they'd definitely both choose a low-risk and high-return type of warfare.
>Even if Archer takes out a Saber-class holy sword, he doesn't have enough Prana to draw on to maximize it, so it'd be hard to for him to attack Bellerophon. What determines victory or defeat is whether Aias on its own would be enough to block Bellerophon perhaps...?

>Assassin vs True Assassin
>If it's just Servant vs Servant, then without complaint, True Assassin would have the better chance of victory. Right, Kojirou doesn't have any means of breaking through Zabaniya. But there's more to it. The problem of Zabaniya is that it's not immediate death. If a normal heart gets destroyed by it, then the person dies immediately but the opponents are Servants. And especially against Kojirou, who has a strong spirit alignment, even if his heart is destroyed he still will have some fighting power left in him. Right in the interval after TA uses his Noble Phantasm, Assassin could close the gap and use Tsubame Gaeshi. Which means....it would be a draw since both of them would end up dead...?

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>>122621027
>>122621041
>>122621064
Rune didn't save him from Kirei, nor did it help against being killed by Assassin. Needless to say how shit Assassin is.

>>122620967
What about Belpheron though? How does Lancer deal with that?

>>122621132
F/SN's True Assassin was actually pretty cool, all things considered
F/Z's was trash though

>>122621132
The Shadow ate Lancer's runes not Assassin.

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Fate would feel more like a HGW if you got everyone perspective.
Medea actually does shit besides camping.
Ilya actually does shit besides camping her fortress.
Lancer does A LOT of scouting. Instead we only see him versus Archer, and him building up the hype to die.
Fake Assassin does nothing, so thats fine.
Rider does do little man than setting up her Blood Fort.

Its honestly a shame they didn't try to adopt what was going on. Its a lot of screen time wasted.

>>122621119
Kuzuki vs Caster
Nasu-san CHECK!
Welcome to the beginning of the unorthodox rumble series! The end of the ugly battle of the married couple.....yeah well, just as the adage goes about the loser being the one who falls for the other first, it'd end with Caster being the cause of her own defeat no matter what! You can do it, wakaokusama! ....would be the punchline I started off with, but if both were really serious it wouldn't even be a "fight". Kuzuki, who'd kill the opponent instantly before being noticed, and Caster, who has overwhelming firepower to annihilate the enemy with once the battle starts. Basically, whoever gets the first hit wins without question, would be the "conditional battle".

Rin vs Kotomine
Nasu-san CHECK!
Ah. Rin has the better specs, but 80% of the time, Kotomine would win. It's not easy for humans to conquer trauma printed into them and what this fraud of a priest excels at is opening up the trauma of the enemy.
Since Rin has the goof-up girl trait, she has a lot of traumatic experiences, and having these poked at would make her unable to take advantage of her true potential.... Of course, even if they didn't know each other, Rin would still have a hard time. The executor side of Kotomine, a combat expert with over 10 years of experiences in killing magi, would be the counter of Rin's talents.

Taiga vs Kuzuki
(I'm ignoring this completely)

>>122607157
>not knowing this was one of the first VN's ever

>>122621132
>nor did it help against being killed by Assassin

Hey, he was kicking Assassin's ass until the shadow stepped in, the SAME shadow that also kills Saber, Archer, Gil, and Berserker need I remind you.

>>122621162
How does Rider get to summon it?
Also Gay Bulge or dodging.
RUNES

>>122621132
>nor did it help against being killed by Assassin
Strictly speaking, the Shadow killed him. Lancer vs True Assassin without the Shadow would probably always result in Lancer's victory. At WORST a draw, where he gets Zabaniya'd but kills Assassin anyway because of Battle Continuation.

>>122621162
Gae Bolg thrown version.

Not PERFECT but we know Noble Phantasms can mitigate damage in particular circumstances, see Rho Aias and Bellerophon vs Excalibur.

>>122621162
Lancer's final rune can block any greater phantasm, any normal greater phantasm at least, unless its something completely outside of the system like Shadow that just eats through paper like its water.

>>122612138
Archer. Female MC. Only play the game once for the "story" and never again, because the battle system is atrocious.

>>122621198
That would screw with the structure of the story though. FSN honestly reads more like a mystery at times, with Shirou and the gang trying to figure out what the other masters are doing.

Both Riders in F/Z and F/SN got shit masters like Waver and Shinji. Do they also get shit masters in other spinoffs?

>>122621343
I think in the spinoffs the only one with a semi reasonable master is Achilles.

>>122621343
>Waver
>Shit

Literally grows up to dismantle the entire grail war system.

>>122621162
Kill it.
It's a monster.
Or thrown Gae Bolg because sitting on a horse doesn't protect from getting pierced by a spear.

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>>122621290
If you're not playing through the game three times, once for each servant, and at least going down each path in the game, also to face the final secret boss, you're doing it entirely wrong.

The story isn't the draw here, it's the characters.

If you're not seeing each servant, seeing the other route servants, getting to know each playable servant, fighting Ryougi, you're not really seeing shit here. Battle system is love it or hate it, the people that hate it though are outspoken as shit.

>>122621343
Stats-wise Waver was pretty good, and he was also the only Master to find Caster's lair. His Command Spell boost also made Rider pretty fucking strong against Gil not that it worked but hey

>>122621382
There's a lot of reasonable masters

Leo, other Rin, Rani, Julius, Hakuno, etc.

Julius was one of the few masters so competent, that his servant had to be the one that fucked him up instead.

>>122621473
We're talking about Rider Masters.

Shinji was a true bro.

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>>122621502
You're god damn right he was. Shinji is Shirou's best friend for a reason.

>>122621502
Shinji(Extra) was competent in a sense, too childish though, and he thought it was all a game. If he was taking it seriously he might have gotten somewhere. If he had survived past the first week, it would be pretty certain he'd serious up decently, in the same way Hakuno did perhaps.

>>122621544
Not that Shinji, that Shinji a shit.

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>>122615961
>>122615810
>>122615728
>Their ability as Casters was not what I was challenging, it was the fact that they even qualify for Caster in the first place.
They don't qualify for the Fujuki grailwar. Moon Cell runs on a summoning where there isn't stat requirements to be summoned.
Moon Cell also allows absurd spirit summons.

>>122620802
He starts off the VN by almost instant gibbing Archer, then tries to instant gib Saber because Kotomine knows she is no fun.
If he wasn't forced to retreat out, he would have killer her at that spot.
He holds off Gil for 12 hours, while being unable to attack.
He can keep up with Cybelle. Let me repeat that: He is the fastest moving servant in the war. He shits magecraft. He got no issues killing somebody with stone gaze.

>>122621440
>Stats-wise Waver was pretty good,
Just ignore the stats of Zero characters.
They realy don't make sense.
For example Rin canonicaly maxes out Saber's stats but Kerrytugu's Saber has more Endurance and Agility when it's mentioned that he's a pretty shitty magus

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>>122621590
Shit taste.

>>122621638
Kerrytugu Saber had less strength, mana and near-Lancer tier luck.

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>>122621027
>Is your enemy always running away from the fight? RUNES!
>Are you angry because you got killed before your time to shine? RUNES!
>Do you want to cook but don't have anything to set a fire with? RUNES!
>Are you angry you get killed in every route of your original game? THERE ARE NO RUNES FOR THAT!

>>122621689
Yes that still doesn't excuse having higher agility than maxed out saber.
Or the fact that KARIYA manages to give Lancelot nearly Herakles-tier stats

>>122621590
Shirou pretty much said that shinji was a good man few years ago.

>>122621763
Kariya wasn't actually that bad of a magus, you know that right?

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>>122621544
He means Drake Shinji

An eight year old Korean gamer and hacker, he was a sperm sample child his parents purchased so they could rise up among the lesser classes and have a superior successor for their name, since they were ruined nobility.

He's got actual talent, he has the same childish and foolish personality, but according to Archer this Shinji is actually a good person at heart.

>>122621311
A mystery novel with a 13 episode build up before we get to the Sherlock Holmes part is flawed.
It is as simple as that.

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>>122621798
Maybe not, but he doesn't even come close to Illya

>>122621633
>If he wasn't forced to retreat out, he would have killer her at that spot.
Did he have that much Magical energy left that he could use Gay bolg again?

>>122621763
>Herakles-tier stats
I know Lancelot's overpowered, but really?

>>122621798
Yes but he was nowhere near Sakura,Rin or Ilya who are maxing out servants

>>122621777
Shinji was decent until he found out that he wouldn't be the Matou's heir and everyone started treating him like shit.
He was a bro with Shirou who used to socially annihilate anyone who was abusing Shirou's kindness without Shirou finding out about it.
Just another ruined human being thanks to Grandpa Zouken's child raising.

>>122621839
Gae Bolg costs pretty close to jack shit in terms of mana required to use.

The Holy Grail War is an Early Access Game.

The 5th War was it going F2P and letting in all the kids.

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>>122621831
>comparing a mage in a day to a vessel made solely for the holy grail war

>>122621777
Shinji is just as much a product of the Matou house as Sakura is.

>>122621839
He has enough mana for somewhere between 10-20 Gay Bulges.
The thrown version costs more, the thrown version costs 1/20 of casting Exalibur.

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>>122621839
Read the fucking VN.
He wouldn't even have needed it considering that Saber was extremly wounded

>>122621847
He did though, stats-wise. They were posted in this thread

>>122621818
>Jinako :: Gh…I’ve been terribly insulted. Geniuses are just so cruel. It’s fine no matter how much you fail? Words like that do nothing to lighten the bitterness and envy of common folk who can’t ever succeed.

>Shinji :: Yeah, yeah, whatever hater. God…I can’t believe someone like this was my greatest rival in the gaming world. The web really is a rotten way of communicating. It makes boring people become entertaining and fun people become boring. The worst part is that you can’t even tell which type your are yourself anymore.

>Jinako :: Shinji…?

>Shinji :: I know. At least that people hate me on PJ. But if you don’t make a persona like you’ll just be boring and people will ignore you. No matter how good your records are. My parents were ruined nobility, see. They bought superior genetic material from the Western European plutocrats and designed me. After that I was given a room and just had self-study everyday. What mom and dad wanted wasn’t a son, it was a superior successor. It’s fine though. I can appreciate the irony. I mean, that’s all I have to be proud of. Superiority. Setting records. To teach a lesson to those morons whose faces I don’t even know. I wanted to set records, see. Records no one would ever beat. As proof that I was there. Now things have come to this I finally realized, but that was my wish. So — I wanted to participate in the Holy Grail War, and if I could win it, then I wouldn’t have needed anything more. Even without the “Grail” prize, all I wanted was to leave a record saying “I was here.” Even if it’s the web, where everything is vague, people don’t connect, and things disappear quickly, the name of the winner of the Holy Grail War would persist as long as the internet itself.

He's like a good version of Matou Shinji

>>122621915
I don't remember seeing that in Realta Nua.

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>>122621893
That's my point, there's no reason that Lancelot should be nearly equal to Heracles in stats considering the huge gap in magic circuits between their respective masters.

>>122621984
Maybe you picked the Berserker or the Archer option then

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>>122621975
>implying Shinji Matou isn't great

>>122621822
It isn't solely a mystery novel. It's build around the concept of slowly unveiling the servants across the story. Sometimes certain ones barely get any screen time in a route.

Redoing it to show all the perspectives isn't that simple. Zero was written in an entirely different way.

>>122621947
But, they were blurry to an incomprehensible point.

>>122622001
Have you considered that Lancelot might just be extremely strong on his own?
Not as strong as Gawain though

>>122617180
Kotomine is the best thing in this franchise and I'm still butthurt that we never got the Ilya route, instead settling on the most boring character ever, Sakura Matou.

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>>122622065

>>122622065
Well sure, but he shouldn't be about as strong as fucking Heracles whose had his stats maxed out.

>>122622121
Will CCC ever get translated?

>>122622069
That's not controversial at all, faggot.

>>122622065
You are now comparing him to HERAKLES in pure stats.
Urobuchi just fucked up massively with the stats.

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>>122622187
I know. I'm just eternally butthurt about this route stuff.

>>122621290
It's one of those things that sounds good on paper, but has a terrible execution. I just want to skip all the rock paper scissor and read the dialogues. Would've been way better as a VN, I'll probably just use the cheatcodes to clear it with the other characters or watch play through videos later.

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>>122622069
That's like saying Tohno Shiki is boring. I mean he's not so much. There was a lot of characterization and some depth trying to be shoved in there with Sakura, but it would have helped if they spread it out a bit more maybe.

She's got some different sides to her as a character that haven't been settled.

>>122621633
Isn't the grail in Apocrypha the Fuyuki Grail?