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The idea of a villain just existing to try and aim to be "PERFECT"

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Thread replies: 119
Thread images: 19

The idea of a villain just existing to try and aim to be "PERFECT" is an interesting idea. Toriyama wasn't really gifted with writing multi-dimensional villains, most of them are either comedic evil, or just evil, with not a lot of in-between. So him just abandoning any pretense of trying to make a deep villain and just going with a villain who just wants to be perfect, well, I enjoy that.
>>
Why is perfection so evil though
>>
I liked the Cell saga. The start was pretty bad, but Perfect Cell save everything.
Gohan was cool too.
>>
I liked Cell better when he was still called Meruem.
>>
>>119601031
Well the main character of DBZ is always the action. I never expected anything deep from a manga that named characters after undergarments, music instruments and vegetables.

OTOH, one could analyze something about the whole "asian looking character turned Aryan on power ups".
>>
>>119601394
good bait. meruem is based on freeza and cell
>>
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>>119601031

>becomes perfect
>then becomes
>SUPER PERFECT
>>
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http://youtu.be/jpkeAQG6kQw
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Artificial Human arc thread.

What did everyone think of it?
>>
>>119602064
A fucking mess.
>>
>>119601031
too bad he didn't do anything with the idea, as cell was far from "perfect" in his so called "perfect form" and thus would have been nice to see him trying to gain even more power and abilities to become "perfect"

at the very least i liked that his final form was humanoid
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I liked FMA's take on it more
>>
You are not perfect.
>>
>>119602064
How in the hell did Dr. Gero made the Androids Frieza+ level is beyond me.
>>
>>119602826
Yep. That was the point when the power scaling went out of the window.
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>>119602826

I don't see what the problem is, Red Ribbon army came back to fuck things up.
>>
>>119602907
http://a.pomf.se/vkvbyy.webm
>>
I think the fillers were apart of the magic of DBZ. You waited weeks for something to happen. Yeah it was annoying, But we kept watching!
>>
>>119602826
it's typical in fantasy fiction that humans have no superpowers and such, but instead are the smart guys from the universe who use their brains to compensate for lack of powers.
17 and 18 can be easily explained though by him researching saiyan, namek and freeza cells and thus knows now how biological beings can create super ki. 16 on the other hand is probably just a walking 10xnuclear bomb
>>
>>119603010
Is that Freeza's voice?

Cooler really was just a Freeza clone all along.
>>
I think OP meant 'Togashi'
>>
>>119603033
>but instead are the smart guys from the universe who use their brains to compensate for lack of powers.

Doesn't make much sense seeing as how Mister Satan is the strongest.
>>
>>119603094

Next you're going to tell me Gohan is a Goku clone.
>>
>>119603182
Goten's a Goku clone, Gohan was more of a Yamcha clone
>>
>>119603218

I'd agree if Gohan wasn't fucking awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWYWC7iiBUk
>>
>>119603010
>jobs in normal state to show how cool Cooler is
>jobs in kaioken to show how cool Cooler is
>goes SSJ and wrecks shit instantly
Stupid fight.
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>>119603259
I sometimes wish I went through DBZ in Japanese. My only experience with it was Battle of Gods. The villains seem to have the best voices, I loved Beerus' VA.
>>
>>119603302


http://a.pomf.se/uryyym.webm
>>
>>119603302
Which DBZ movie fights did you like?
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>>119603424
Janemba
>>
>>119603684
I liked Lord Slug, Tree of Might, Bojack and Fusion Reborn

The only ones I didn't like at all were BioBroly and the second Broly movie.

Interesting note is that Turles was pretty interesting despite being Evil Goku.
>>
Found some leaked footage from the upcoming movie.

http://a.pomf.se/hqqsfy.webm
>>
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BEEP
>>
>>119603777

>second Broly movie

Did you watch this dubbed? Genuine curious.
>>
>>119603828
Yes, with the replacement music and everything.

All I can remember was that Broly was somehow sane again and escaped, and that Krillin disguised himself as Piccolo and helped Gohan out. They used the Dragon Balls to bring Goku back for a brief minute to kill Broly, once and for all.

Is it better in Japanese? None of the English DBZ holds up if it isn't Kai.
>>
>>119603779
>Bojack under Frieza's command
That movie fucked up so many things, yet still was awesome. And fuck dub music, while underwhelming most of the time it COMPLETELY destroyed the fight between Gogeta and Janemba.
>>
>>119603940
>Yes, with the replacement music and everything.

Rewatch it in Jap, there are EXTREMELY heavy rewrites especially to Trunks dialogue.

English: He's an annoying bratty shitbag

Jap: He actually has some decent lines.

http://a.pomf.se/gokwwx.webm
>>
>>119604081
When did Funimation start getting things right?

I wish they went back and redid all of the movies, Trunks and Goten were horrendous in English DBZ.
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>>119603777
Bio Broly is so bad one has to wonder why it was ever made that way. Even the video games stay away from it.
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>>119604048

You'll also note that you won't be able to spot Broly in that crowd, that's because he was originally meant to be the BIG BAD of the movie.
>>
>>119603413
Why does Coola's armor tear off when he is burning in the sun?
>>
>>119604505
It's ablative armor.
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>>119604505

He never burned in the sun, he died being crushed by that giant energy ball.

Like a sponge it squished down.
>>
>villain aims to be perfect
>ends up as some sort of bug-human hybrid

why?
>>
webm guy: do you have any Return of Cooler webm's?
The first half of that movie was so good, then it turns so fucking bad.

>>119604585
I thought the blast was forcing him to burn in the sun while he reflects on not killing Goku when he had the chance

>>119604556
Coola's so fucking awesome.
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>>119604642

INSECTS HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR FOUR HUNDRED MILLION YEARS, YOU CANNOT DEFEAT THEIR FOUR HUNDRED MILLION YEAR OLD HISTORY.
>>
>>119604344
Broly had long outstayed his welcome by the time Fusion Reborn was released, I doubt they wanted to make another Broly movie after the failure of Bio-Broly.
>>
>>119602777
He wasn't trying to be perfect he just wanted infinite knowledge
>>
>>119604810
As anybody with experience with computers knows, infinite knowledge is "easy". What's difficult is non-noise infinite knowledge. Knowledge that is actually usable.
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>>119604722

I actually think it was due to the fact that everybody became so fucking strong between the time Bio Broly happened and Fusion Reborn happened.
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>>119602826
You just don't think about it. The canon explanation is that a) Freiza NEVER trained, that power he had was just his inherent ability (which might go to explain why he is the main villain in the upcoming movie - he finally trained) and b) Dr. Gero used Saiyan and Namekian cells to power his androids and used "information" gained from analyzing all the Z fighters' battles on Earth.

However, with that said, why in the fuck couldn't any other space/extra dimensional beings do something similar (and by extension far greater) is beyond me. I suppose Toriyama just wanted to bring back the Red Ribbon Army.
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>>119604912


no.
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>>119605101
What, no?
>>
http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/daizenshuu/interview6.html#movie14

What's interesting about this interview is that Toriyama essentially confirms that he only designed Bojack and Broly, as well as Tapion and Minosha. He outright confirms that he didn't design Janemba by saying they did a good job on his second form (he thought it looked "cool"). I didn't know that.
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>>119605127
>As anybody with experience with computers knows, infinite knowledge is "easy".

no.
>>
>>119605180
I didn't mean easy. I meant easy compared to what I said next. That's why I used the quotation marks.
Also, the only difference between the maximum amount of information that could be (and has been) gathered right now and infinite information is the amount of unusable noise, so there is not really a difference.
>>
>>119605066
Android/Cell saga was a culmination of everything that happened in the Dragonball.
>Red Ribbon Army returns (and wants Goku dead)
>Cell is a combination of genes of every major fighter in the series (and wants Goku dead)
>Tournament
>Gohan finally becomes the strongest and a guardian of Earth, while Goku decides to not come back to life again (because everyone wants him dead and it puts Earth in danger)
>>
>>119605275

Go look up the definition of infinite then get back to me.
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>>119605320
Did you even read my post?
It doesn't sound like it.
>>
http://youtu.be/rWcB8TZL3KA
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>>119605370

Go look up the definition of infinite then get back to me.
>>
>>119605417
You are missing the point. Do reread my posts.
>>
>>119605370
Just ignore him, he's being a retard on purpose.
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>>119604912

Wow you're a fucking tool, you don't know shit.
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>>119605566
If you say so.
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http://youtu.be/CYFwgTN7w7E
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I had so much hype for Kai but sadly it didn't live up to the hype I set for it. I saw the opening credits, saw the amazing animation and was like "sold." Then it got into the real show and the animation is just like the old DBZ I watched as a teenager.
>>
>>119605932

The colouring is too off in the openings. Looks like plastic.

This is what the openings to Kai should have looked like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HxN_8OHBf8
>>
I don't think "new" animation is necessary tbh. As nice as the Dragon Ball Kai OP/Plan to Eradicate the Saiyajins looks, I'd much rather watch the entire series with a style like this.

That is a shot of movie 9. This film captures Toriyama's art perfectly, and is my favourite Dragon Ball movie.

Probably the worst thing about the series (yes, worse than the filler/pacing) is the fucking atrocious art we are presented with a good chunk of the time. It's like some of the art directors weren't even looking at the manga. I didn't notice it much as a kid, but when watching my Dragon Boxes... god damn.
>>
Akira Toriyama: At that time it began to be more fun to think up the story than to draw the pictures. But with the story, I basically only thought of each chapter. That's why I end up getting caught in these quagmires. (laughs) Around the time of Trunks' time travel, it was dreadful. I kept drawing, and it just got more and more incoherent.

Kazuhiko Torishima: You only got away with that because Kondou was your editor. I can't stand that kind of troublesome stuff. (laughs)

Akira Toriyama: You're terrible to say that, Torishima-san. Right around then was when the Androids No. 19 and No. 20 appeared. You weren't my editor or anything anymore, but you specifically called me to say "I thought that the enemies had finally come, but aren't these just a geezer and a fatso?" (laughs) In truth, I hadn't had plans for anyone but No. 19 and No. 20 to appear. But there was no helping it, so I brought out No. 17 and No. 18. Then you called me up and said "What, this time it's just some brats?" So I brought out Cell. (laughs)

Fuyuto Takeda: So you hadn't planned on Cell appearing at all?

Akira Toriyama: That's right. I liked No. 19 and No. 20 just fine. And I liked the initial Cell fine as well.

Fuyuto Takeda: The bug-like one?

Akira Toriyama: But Kondou-san said "He looks ugly. Of course, he can transform.", so I had no choice but to transform him into his second-form.

Yuu Kondou: Was that how it was?

Akira Toriyama: And then you were really awful, Kondou-san. "This time he looks like a moron, doesn't he? Hurry up and make him into his perfect-form" you said.

Yuu Kondou: But he really did look like a moron. (laughs)

Akira Toriyama: With second-form Cell as well, I liked him well enough. Actually, I had wanted him to play a more active role. But since I was told he looked stupid, I had no choice but to change him. (laughs) So I made him into his cool-looking perfect-form, which was to Kondou-san's liking.
>>
>>119605305
>Red Ribbon Army returns
not really just 2 of them. the androids don't really count.
>Cell is a combination of genes of every major fighter in the series
maybe thats why he feel so uninspired in his last form
>Tournament
this was the worst. it wasn't even a tournament is was just goku and gohan taking turns fighting.
>Gohan finally becomes the strongest and a guardian of Earth
>buu saga
>>
>>119606997
>not really just 2 of them.

Of course it's only 2 of them, don't you remember Goku killing all those soldiers with his bare hands?
>>
>>119606997
If Buu saga didn't happen, Cell saga would be the perfect ending. They even mimicked the whole "new guardian" with Uub.
>>
>>119603107
In martial arts tough.
>>
As others said, Toriyama was pretty much out of ideas for Buu and was randomly throwing things out. This was always his style, but the previous sagas had editors to reign that in to give it some coherency.

For example, the Android saga, which most people say is their favorite. Random cliches and ideas are really coming out of nowhere:

Random son of character from future
Random mad scientist
Random two ugly androids who editor hated
Random teenager androids, editor also hated
Which leads up to the REAL villain all along, a Bug-like android that eats others and also travels time.

Now, here's the thing: It worked. The Cell saga, which was thrown together as it went along (Toriyama has said this in interviews) works as a story. It doesn't seem too random or jarring when new elements enter the picture.

The Buu saga, though, did not have that tight editing. You can see what Toriyama was getting at with Buu, a child-like entity with God-like powers, but it just didn't work. Not to mention that he couldn't come up with a good way to involve any of the new characters--I seriously doubt, when finishing Cell, he still had an urge to see a 10 year old with no eyebrows fight a bubblegum genie by spitting out ghosts.

They really should've given Toriyama a break to recharge after Cell.
>>
>>119606373
I'm still pissed that Bojack Trunks was never an alt in any of the games
>>
So why didn't anyone like Battle of Gods?

It was fucking great, just not as serious as usual.
>>
>>119607659
I'm watching it now and think it's fucking great. Emperor Pilaf and co. just ran into Trunks and Goten. The whole movie so far really feels like a love letter from Toriyama.
>>
>>119607659
Who doesn't like it? Shit was great.

I love it, and usually rewatch it every now and again in the background.

The only way I can see people not liking it is because it doesn't meet the edgy Linkin Park audience where all the characters are being raped by Lord Beerus and they have to give their energy to finally defeat Goku
>>
>>119607659
I've watched the ALL DAY ALL NIGHT segment a hundred times or more. It's amazing.
>>
>>119607659
It was funny, but many people dislike the whole God thing as a new power level for everyone. And Goku's TotallyNotKaioken.

I have mixed feelings about Frieza returning too, let it go, bring someone new.
>>
Just a reminder that some podunk scientist from a mudball planet that doesn't even have space travel built better cybernetics than the finest engineers the space nazis had, IN A CAVE, WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS
>>
>>119607925
I WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO DESTROY MY WOOOOORLD
>>
>>119608112
When in a cave, with a box of scraps, always ask yourself, what would Tony Stark do?
>>
>>119608112
That line always gets me. I just can't hate that movie.
>>
>>119608112
>>119608330
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miKHrGXSDxg

it is pretty funny in retrospect

We could always just fix it by saying Gero scavenged parts from friezas cut up body chunks and the ship and learned from it
>>
>>119608403
Reverse engineering is more difficult than Hollywood would have you believe.
>>
>>119608403
I want to see the Mecha Freeza vs. Goku fight that lasts twice as long as the original
>>
>>119608971
Goku just standing around doing nothing for 40 episodes?
>>
>>119609025
I was pretty disappointed we didn't get more after that hyped scene where

>Stronger then ever before
>Better senses
>Harder better faster stronger

Then Trunks just shows up and Vegeta's wearing his pink shirt

We've got that new movie so I can't complain
>>
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Bills is the only good villain Toriyama has done since Tao Pai Pai
>>
>>119606525
>Akira Toriyama: But Kondou-san said "He looks ugly. Of course, he can transform.", so I had no choice but to transform him into his second-form.
>Yuu Kondou: Was that how it was?
>Akira Toriyama: And then you were really awful, Kondou-san. "This time he looks like a moron, doesn't he? Hurry up and make him into his perfect-form" you said.
>Yuu Kondou: But he really did look like a moron. (laughs)
>Akira Toriyama: With second-form Cell as well, I liked him well enough. Actually, I had wanted him to play a more active role. But since I was told he looked stupid, I had no choice but to change him. (laughs) So I made him into his cool-looking perfect-form, which was to Kondou-san's liking.
holy fuck kondou-san, commit sudoku.
>>
>>119609331
He's right though. His first form really did look ugly and his second form really did make him look like a moron. The final form was perfect.
>>
>>119607248
Buu saga kinda sucked but i really liked the concept of Fusion
>>
I love villains that are multidimensional and who have more long and short term plans instead of one single plan. Also my most favorite ones are tragic villains.

>>119602826
Gero had everything. He had the tech. He had the skills. He could've built a company that would rival Capsule Corp.

Instead he went for vengeance because Kid Goku wrecked the Red Ribbon Army.

>>119609795
Because Evil Buu wasn't a girl.
>>
>>119610028
That's Gero for you.
>>
Yamamoto made a kickass soundtrack for Kai. Shame it had to go.

http://youtu.be/VKbFoWCKvM0
>>
Where was it stated that only base Super Saiyan gets used from now on?

If this is true, it completely fucks over that shitfic.
>>
>>119613159
Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?!

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.
>>
>>119613591
>Super Saiyan 4
Not canon.
>>
>>119613591
Which means no Super Saiyan 4. Ever.
>>
>>119613717
Yes, we know from BoG.

Thanks for reminding us for the strange and horrific event where we were reminded of GT.

You're a life saver. :)
>>
>>119613949
Don't use emoticons on /a/.
>>
>>119613786
Gohan still had Ultimate in Battle of the Gods, not that it did him any good. However, Toriyama has talked about removing SSJ 2 and 3 in the new movie, saying that Goku's best form is now SSJ. The reason for that is that the later forms caused unnecessary strain and now Goku has trained to maximize SSJ. That really shouldn't apply to Ultimate, but I guess it'll be removed right alongside the higher SSJ levels.
>>
>>119613591
AT straight up forgot SSJ2 existed, he thought SSJ3 was the 2nd form.

Hell I bet the only reason he's making everyone only use SSJ1 from now on is so he doesn't have to remember any of that other shit.
>>
>>119614130
Honestly if it wasn't for goku doing his lecture to buu and babidi, would we even be able to identify Goku and Vegeta as "SSJ2?" I actually didn't without being told so. I just knew Goku and Vegeta were stronger in the Buu Saga than Gohan had been against Cell. SSJ2 is basically never mentioned as a transformation outside of Goku's speech to babidi and Buu.
>>
I just want them to bring back Ultra Super Saiyan form. That was ridiculous and badass at the same time. I loved how both father/son team went with different directions in improving their SSJ form.

Also, is it canon that the higher tier of SSJ you are, the more arrogant you become? I remember reading somewhere that going SSJ amplifies the saiyan side, which is why Gohan got so smug when he went SSJ2, but was humble as fuck in his mystic form.
>>
>>119613972
I can't invade your sacred secret club ):
>>
>>119607659
Main problems was the stupid powerlevels.
But really, SSJ God would as strong as a SSJ6, Beerus as a SSJ10 and Wheel as a FUCKING SSJ15. Just how the fuck ?
>>
>>119601370
Honestly, plot-wise, I preferred Cell before his perfect state.
>>
Imperfect Cell > Perfect Cell >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Semi-Perfect Cell
>>
>>119614076
That IS Gohan's Super Saiyan. GT is retarded for even allowing him to use regular.
>>
>>119604642
>Humans=smartest
>Insects=strongest pound for pound and most adaptive
Gee, i wonder.
>>
>>119602826
>>119610028
>>119605066
The answer is that toriyama is a hack who pulled everything out of his ass and then forgot about it the next day.

I SERIOUSLY hope you aren't one of those fags that argues about what is or isn't canon with dragon ball, that's like debating canon in mario.
>>
>>119622108
Addendum: Dragon ball heros is fucking awesome because it just throws canon out the window and does whatever it wants with every piece of media that has been made so far.

So glad Xenoverse is using a lot of heros stuff
>>
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"the ultimate being embodies the powers of each and every living thing"
-cars
>>
>>119604642
>perfect organism
>doesn't become a non-aging bacteria
>>
>>119601370
I like it, I've re-read it recently, it's simple and straightforward but can keep the tension. Honestly tho it's kinda weird how stuff escalated that in like a few weeks we have so many power shifts.

>
Akira Toriyama: You're terrible to say that, Torishima-san. Right around then was when the Androids No. 19 and No. 20 appeared. You weren't my editor or anything anymore, but you specifically called me to say "I thought that the enemies had finally come, but aren't these just a geezer and a fatso?" (laughs) In truth, I hadn't had plans for anyone but No. 19 and No. 20 to appear. But there was no helping it, so I brought out No. 17 and No. 18. Then you called me up and said "What, this time it's just some brats?" So I brought out Cell. (laughs)

THIS EXPLAINS SO FUCKING MUCH. Although it was later retconned that the 19 and 20 appeared and that 17 and 18 are different in attitude (not power, however, as it's exaplained they were holding back the whole time in the future) from the ones Trunks knew because of the fact that Cell had tampered with the timeline before Trunks ever did, there still were so many things that made little sense. Like how they did appear in the same spot they 17 and 18 did in Trunks' timeline, and how Trunks didn't think to mention "oh, just so you know, they have no aura and have infinite energy, and look like this". Or how Piccolo didn't ever think about fusing or the time room in Trunks' timeline.

In general tho I don't really think Goku is acting in character for the second half of the arc. Honestly I don't see him as someone who wouldn't want to get stronger to be able to defeat a strong opponent. He says he's plenty strong and that training further was pointless, but was it really pointless if there were two people stronger than him? The same Goku that, later, in 7 years, goes past SSJ2 and reaches 3. Also there's a bit of inconsistency in how he accepts a senzu against 20, but refuses to get one against Cell (20 seems weird).
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