What was the best looking SNES game? Or most technically impressive, if you want to get autistic about it.
For some reason I was always impressed by the reflections in ToP. It did a lot of neat things with shadows, too.
I still maintain that Super Mario world is timeless it its effective use of a generally simple color palette, and it remained the best looking SNES game for the first two years of that system.
Official box art.
ROM download if you are so inclined.
You got dunked on, son.
i like tales of phantasia in the snes, pretty great game, music, that anime intro, that audio quote at the beginning, mode 7 I guess, the battle system, I need to replay it soon.
Terranigma is up there too, it has a pretty good presentation.
Kishin Doujin Zenki
Super Turrican 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzAhb4Bcp6Y [Embed]
Please please don't insult the flawed brilliance that is the first Tales game with the hot steaming garbage shat out by Quintet. :(
It does edge it out (though barely) in several technical categories, you are entirely correct about that. Still...I never could get into it. Call me crazy, but Star Ocean just feels like the best of Wolf Team that formed Tri-Ace going "Oh yeah? Well FUCK YOU Namco!" and doing this game solely to spite ToP. It just doesn't feel like it has much soul or spirit, however technically impressive/superior it may be to ToP. I guess they gave Phantasia most of the heart they had...
They know what he means. And if they through some misunderstanding _didn't_, there's still much less disruptive ways to clarify intent than the autistic bullshit we've seen thus far.
Oh? Which town?
The problem I had with SO was that it was pretty damn boring with the dungeons consisting of almost nothing but mazes with next to no puzzles, the overworld-travel being mostly padding and the fights being meh due to the stupid friendly AI.
It also didn't feel like it had the same graphical variety and detail as ToP.
When you walk past the lamp posts or shopping windows Cless' shadow will change depending on where he stands.
Found a fairly amazing looking SNES games after poring over
emuparadise: Treasure Hunter G. Very late release, practically looks like a PlayStation game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHNI1Stpw_s (the user uploaded in terrible video quality but you can see at 1:30 amazing usage of Mode7)
If you play around with the game a little, you'll see that they used a lot of pre-rendered elements (if that's the correct phrasing), like the actors and backgrounds in Donkey Kong Country. Surprised I've never heard of the title until recently.
Yoshi's Island, no question about it, is the most technically impressive game on the SNES. It was essentially a tour-de-force of every last single hardware feature available on the SNES utilized in a variety of creative ways. It also incorporated the most advanced coproceesor available to the system, the SuperFX2. Knowing how to program the SNES has helped me appreciate what an accomplishment this game was.
It's not even bait, it's the truth. I bet you also think FF6 never came out on the Super Nintendo, only "FF3" did.
SNES and SFC have 100% identical hardware, 100% compatible software, (unless you're in Europe like me and haven't modded it, then you get nintencucked), why do you think that a different name makes it a different console? How much more identical do the SNES and SFC have to be before you'd consider them the same console?
Are Lay's and Walker's different of crisps?
Are cilantro and coriander different herbs?
Are "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" and "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone" two different books?
There's no point arguing with him, I would guess that most posters agree with this pov.
>Are "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" and "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone" two different books?
He would say no because of minor linguistic changes such as 'jumper' (UK) > 'sweater' (US)
>...And you've completely misinterpreted the image macro. Thank you for playing, have a nice day.
Well, you certainly couldn't.
I thought it might trigger somebody's autism, since there is no game released in North America under the title Seiken Densetsu [any number]. (It's an early XKCD btw).
That got released? Objectively, probably Star Fox, Stunt Race FX, or another SNES game with 3D polygon graphics. That didn't get released? Star Fox 2.
I guess you can't say any of them are technically impressive since they required the use of a special chip.
>tour-de-force of every last single hardware feature available on the SNES
>incorporated the most advanced coproceesor available to the system
It's the latter, not the former. These hardware "upgrades" also make it difficult, if not futile, to compare SNES games in terms of coding skills
>or another SNES game with 3D polygon graphics
The polygonal games bypassed virtually any graphics hardware on the SNES, offloading that work to the cart. They're terrible showcases for the SNES' abilities, and in fact look terrible compared to other systems of the time, because the SNES lacks the infrastructure to do that kind of graphics. Polygonal games on the SNES ran DESPITE the SNES itself, not because of it.
the SNES has a tile based rendering system, with the image being built just in time, no buffer. So if you want polygonal graphics, you can't do a normal rasterizer. The closest you can get to it is by covering the screen in unique tiles, and then trying to draw inside them. Fucks with your memory model though, which eats performance. And with all the pretty abilities the SNES has, computing performance is not one of them
>This custom-made RISC processor is typically programmed to act like a graphics accelerator chip that draws polygons to a frame buffer in the RAM that sits adjacent to it. The data in this frame buffer is periodically transferred to the main video memory inside of the console using DMA in order to show up on the television display.
So, yeah, chip on cart draws into RAM on cart. The SNES just takes whatever is in there, and throws it at the screen. Its own graphics hardware is practically bypassed.
Of course the SNES itself handles the game logic, input, sound and all that. But graphically, it was all the SuperFX chip, working around the tile and sprite system
Yes, the SuperFX allowed for the real-time application of affine transformations on sprites and some 3D effects that would not have been otherwise available to games lacking the coprocessor, however the programmers of YI also utilized the on-board graphics hardware masterfully. If you don't know much about the SNES PPU this may not be evident. For instance, most games only use one graphics mode for the main game engine (usually Mode 1), but YI utilizes at least 4 modes throughout the game A great example is how the "Touch Fuzzy Get Dizzy" stage is implemented using Mode 2. Extremely creative use of HDMA with scrolling, color windowing, and constant color addition was utilized in creating huge enemies and vivid backgrounds with more parallaxed layers than what less talented programmers of the system would have thought possible.
This game is so tightly integrated with the SNES hardware that a port of the game to any other system at the time would have been impossible. I never played the GBA port, but I doubt they made a perfect copy. That's how they were able to make such a fantastically vivid graphics experience.
Furthermore it's by no means trivial to implement the game using the SuperFX chip in the way that they did. Typical games only have to load the graphics for an enemy when a level is loaded. Because YI used scaled graphics, enemy graphics would have to be dynamically allocated whenever you were close to such an enemy. Otherwise they'd have run out of RAM fast. This is not a trivial programming task. I personally don't know of any other games on the SNES that use dynamic memory allocation (although they may exist).
Though the SNES was designed specifically to allow for such coprocessors, if you were to exclude all games with them (hint, you'd throw out a lot of favorites), I'd have to say Seiken Densetsu 3 pushed the stock hardware to it's limits. I'm still trying to figure out how they pulled of some magic special effects in real time.
Bad google picture
But SG&G looks awesome. Graphics are clean everything is moving, background fits perfect.
2nd mention would be super metroid, which also looked ultra clean and had so much details in graphics
>I never played the GBA port, but I doubt they made a perfect copy
The GBA's rendering capabilities are a superset of what the SNES does. Comparable modes, comparable HDMA access, comparable tile restrictions, etc.
>Though the SNES was designed specifically to allow for such coprocessors, if you were to exclude all games with them
I'm just saying that the inclusion of the coprocessor makes it difficult to compare these games. How much is dev skill? How much is extra processing power? The introduction of a coprocessor does not mean the devs can sit back and push a button to receive a game, no question. And of course usage of a coprocessor is not trivial. But I hope you do understand the issue I was aiming at.
>So, yeah, chip on cart draws into RAM on cart. The SNES just takes whatever is in there, and throws it at the screen. Its own graphics hardware is practically bypassed. Of course the SNES itself handles the game logic, ...
Sorry, but no. Nearly all game logic is run on the SuperFX. YI's ROM was connected to both the CPU bus and SuperFX. When the SuperFX is running off the ROM, the CPU can't access it. In fact the CPU has to load a program into RAM and execute from there while the SuperFX is doing it's thing, which is completely unheard of on the SNES unless you are working with such hardware setup. (aside: it's was possible to have seperate ROMs for the SuperFX and CPU, but due to cost, no commercial game ever used this setup)
Also the graphics hardware isn't bypassed in any way, shape, or form. It's actually just the slowness of the stock CPU that is bypassed. Yes, the SuperFX draws character data into on-cart RAM which is transfered to VRAM, but this isn't much different than how a typical game transfers character data from ROM to VRAM. The only difference between the two is the source of the data, not how the graphics hardware is used. The SuperFX is just used to generate data to feed the PPU, not bypass it. In fact the graphics hardware is a state machine. You sick it on some memory, flip a few switches, and it renders a scene. It never actually produces any data on its own.
Actually there is only one way to bypass the graphics hardware on the SNES as indicated by the Engrish riddled dev manual, and that is using Mode 7 with the EXTBG flag set in $2133 SETINI. However this only seems to give you the ability to set a priority flag on Mode 7 tiles, not enable "input from external VLSI" as is said in the manaul, and I know of no game that ever used this feature, whatever it was.
>Nearly all game logic is run on the SuperFX
My comment was about a particular game. That said, I don't think the SuperFX chip has direct access to the various ports for I/O handling. So the CPU has to do something, if only minor delegation tasks, to give the SuperFX chip everything it needs to do. If what you say though means the CPU is generally "dead" as far as SuperFX development is concerned, that's even more damning than I suggested, because the co-processor is then not just supporting the CPU, it's replacing it.
>The only difference between the two is the source of the data, not how the graphics hardware is used
Probably a misunderstanding. Normally the SNES has its backgrounds and sprites, and the rendering process/graphics hardware combines them to one output image. That's when all the various modes and alpha effects and stuff come into play, showing the graphics prowess of the machine. In case of polygonal rendering though, it's a plain unscrolling background with unique tiles, and all the "work" is not in producing these alpha or scrolling effects, but in determining the content of the tiles, something that's usually statically loaded from RAM. The SNES has no continuious VRAM memory model, so the tile workaround needs to be applied.
>I don't think the SuperFX chip has direct access to the various ports for I/O handling. So the CPU has to do something, if only minor delegation tasks
Yup, right on the money. It acts like the conductor of an orchestra. It mainly triggers work for the SuperFX to do, handles talking with the graphics and audio hardware, reads the controllers, and handles the NMI during V-Blank. What's interesting is that you could theoretically put non-trivial code into RAM (or have that second ROM) and have both processors work in parallel. The CPU coupled with some coprocessors like the SA-1 (maybe the SuperFX too?) had interesting hardware designs that allowed both processors to independently interrupt each other, which opens the doors to some interesting programming strategies.
>In case of polygonal rendering though, it's a plain unscrolling background with unique tiles, and all the "work" is not in producing these alpha or scrolling effects, but in determining the content of the tiles, something that's usually statically loaded from RAM (I think you meant ROM?)
Right again. Keep in mind all of this could be done with just the stock CPU (any CPU really), just not in real time. The SNES had graphics hardware that far outstripped its CPU's ability to feed the beast.
I think DKC2 is the best looking SNES game, but it doesn't do anything special with the hardware.
An exception is the fake 3D backgrounds of the ship interiors. I've never been able to figure out how Rare did it.
I've never played DKC2, but that background was pretty sick. They are just using HDMA in a creative way and adjusting the vertical scroll of the background per scanline to fake the 3D.
Sonic 3 did something similar with the background water in Hydrocity and Launch Base Zones.
Goto 15:20 if the link doesn't.
That's just line scrolling. Genesis did it better, because it had a line scroll table in VRAM you could update all at once instead of having to HDMA each line when the raster scan reached it.
In other words it sounds like the Genesis had a dedicated HDMA channel for background scrolling. I like the flexibility of the SNES HDMA architecture personally because you can point any one of 8 channels it to any graphics register within a certain range of addresses, and the data you feed it has two formats which help limit the amount of data you need to prep to make full screen HDMA effects.
I never played through the whole thing, but the main differences I noticed in the first world were that they added in Yoshi Story's annoying sound effects, the colours seemed higher contrast (probably to look better on the GBAs crappy screen), and touch fuzzy's effect looked slightly different. It was kind of choppy, though the effect mostly translated well enough.
Treasure Hunter G if you like pre rendered grafix. Most late released titles look good.
That's just an intro.
This is such a wrong answer. Super Metroid does not have a lot of detail. It was a massive game and to even make it fit, they had to cut the graphics down.
GBA is the SNES plus the SFX2 and maybe even more. Doom is definitely better played on the GBA than the SNES.
>the colours seemed higher contrast (probably to look better on the GBAs crappy screen)
most ports and indeed most games made specifically for it suffered from this, because the original GBA unit didn't have a backlit screen. it's truly a shame, but there are a variety of patches for some of the more popular games that reduce the contrast.
Final Fantasy Tactics was unique in that it had several color profiles that could be chosen on the title screen. That should have been a fucking requirement for all GBA games.
Alas, this isn't even retro.
An idiot thought that TOP was first released on the PSX. Instead of admitting he was wrong, he stamped his feet and went into an autistic rage over how it wasn't on the SNES, but the Super Famicom.
>because the original GBA unit didn't have a backlit screen
It has very little to do with the lighting mechanism, and more with the general quality of the LCD, due to technology progressing. The GBC required a lot of oversaturation to look normal. GBC games looked too dark even on launch GBAs, because the GBA had a better reflective display than the GBC. The same happened when they swapped out the display yet again when they went for a backlit type.
>That should have been a fucking requirement for all GBA games
The display change was not anticipated, and a color profile makes little sense on a standardized display. If anything, Nintendo messed up by picking displays with different reproduction properties.
For me, the GBC is the ultimate system to play GBC games. The games are made for its screen (dpi and color reproduction), and it can be held nicely, and thanks to replacable batteries, it's still as fresh and longlasting as it was back in 1998. It works quite well for GB games too, though I'd use the grey palette, as some of the other palettes use different colors for sprites, which can spoil some games, that use sprites as background overlays to hide things. I personally prefer the GBC over the original GB, simply because of its high contrast and not-ghosting display. Though, if you care about sound, go for the original GB, as its sound is superior to that of the GBC. Chip tune composers using Nanoloop and other such trackers definitely recommend the original GB for that kind of work.
When you play games on a GBC, the best environment is bright ambient light. That can be an overcast day outside (doesn't get much better than that, really), or office lighting, or just a generally well lit room. In a pinch, a worm light can work, but it's just that, a fallback.
I feel the same.
It's simple but nearly perfect, the music, the background, enemy and overworld designs, also the whole game is very colorful without looking forced or out of place, everything fits perfectly.
It's definitvely a masterpiece and will be forever remembered by gaming enthusiasts.
Tales of Phantasia is definitely one of the best looking games from that era. The reflections in the water had me watering at the mouth.
Yoshi's Island is the game that defines 16-bit graphics for me. The most charming game I've ever seen, and the crayon style was sheer brilliance.
Tales of Phantasia is not a Super NES game. But I get what you mean.
Sparkster, really underrated/hidden gem/awesome game that never gets mentioned.
>This game is so tightly integrated with the SNES hardware that a port of the game to any other system at the time would have been impossible.
Saturn could've handled it pixel perfect due to it having a custom chip specifically meant to be doing SNES-style "HDMA" effects.
But yeah, on any other modern system (by which I mean 3d framebuffer based stuff), it would've been extremely difficult and would've needed a lot of workarounds. Not impossible, but a lot of effects would've looked much worse, more pixelated.
>Yes, the SuperFX draws character data into on-cart RAM which is transfered to VRAM, but this isn't much different than how a typical game transfers character data from ROM to VRAM.
Not quite. ROM to VRAM transfers happen less often, usually a few times per level, and after that the game runs from RAM. Not counting special cases where you need to update lots of animation, which is prohibitive due to cart space.
But on a typical platform game you'd just load the level tiles and then not really update anything ever unless some mid-level transition requires new graphics.
This is in sharp contrast with what the SuperFX does to copy its own graphics to the PPU. That is, to CONSTANTLY update tiles for every frame of the game. Every frame that the SuperFX draws in its own framebuffer, is uploaded to the PPU and then displayed.
But I dunno how much of that Yoshi's Island uses, I'm only talking in general. I think it just used run levels normally, except for the few scaled effects.
Also did the SNES have enough memory bandwidth to update a full screen worth of tiles at 60fps? The Megadrive also did the same thing for lots of stuff (Sega CD scaling) and the biggest bottleneck was always the fact that you cannot send enough tiles to the VDP in one frame at full screen.
>Name an effect that the Genesis can do that the SNES can't.
Using different sized tiles on the screen simultaneously.
Keeping the maximum colour count of the machine when you switch into 448i hi-res mode.
Doing background skewing, scaling, and limited rotation, while having the maximum amount of background layers on the screen. And also doing those effects on sprites. (this was done by applying column scroll and line scroll simultaneously to "tilt" graphics)
Well that last one, I think the SNES could do it too, but it was too cpu intensive on a scale that the Megadrive allowed (which was doing it on damn near every layer plus on sprites as well).
Adventure of Batman & Robin also did it:
Skip to 24:47.
... so did Virtua Fighter 2, come to think of it.
That was just a Mode 7 background (single background layer that can be rotated).
The effect in DKC is having a background, and manipulating its position every scanline, to make it appear tilted or skewed. It is basically the thing Space Harrier uses to draw the ground.