Ocarina of Time, because the extreme expectations set for it will never be met. Regardless, it's an excellent game, and I wish we could discuss it here without contrarians like OP shitposting about how much they hate it.
>>2878945 >that shitty overworld >only one big side quest >first three dungeons are a bloody joke >having to go back to Temple of Time to warp every time >the only fleshed out town is Hyrule (child)/Kakariko (adult) >none of the enemies pose a challenge aside from Iron Knuckle, who is rare
OoT has aged like milk and only gets credit for being "the first", much like SotN. But all of OoT's sequels have surpassed it and only people blinded by nostalgia rank OoT as best.
>>2878925 No, the appreciating for MM comes from the fact that that game is just /unsettling/. It creates atmospheric tension and uneasiness in a way Nintendo never has and likely never will do again. The time system is bullshit. Of course you'll respond to this with some whiny bullshit so I don't even know why I'm bothering. You're obviously just a shitty troll.
Link's Awakening (non-DX) is still the best Zelda. It's the only Zelda game where everything is there for good reason. You couldn't remove anything without making it worse. There's no wasted space in the overworld, and the dungeon designs (especially the later ones) are unmatched. DX version is worse because the bonus dungeon gives you an overpowered item, and you can't 100% it without being a THIEF.
>>2878954 You're so fucking full of shit. I agree, it gets probably more recognition than deserved, because it gets a shit ton. But there's a reason it did. I just started another play through since it's been for fucking ever, and I must say, this game managed to retain all it's charm even if it's n64 graphics.
>>2879076 I'm sure that's why Alundra is called a "Zelda clone".
But honestly I've never played it, I was told its "Zelda with a dark storyline and anime cutscenes" which was maybe an unfortunate description, as I've avoided it since. Maybe one of these days I'll give it a fair try.
>>2879140 >getting buttdevastated I didn't even say I hated anime, but if you think a game is better than a game that it ripped off because it has anime cut scenes I guess I shouldn't be surprised by this reaction.
The only reason video games even evolved beyond the N64 in any margin of sense is because of OOT and MM.
Ocarina of Time proved a sandbox game could be completed.
Majora's Mask proved that complex diurnal/nocturnal cycles could be incorporated into games, expanding on what Ocarina of Time was the first game to do.
Remember on top of the 24 clock, OoT was the first game to have >3D lock-on targeting. >context-sensitive action button. >manipulable vehicle. >still the only 3D game with interactive time-travel other than its sequel. >still the only game with an optional vehicle of travel that alters your ability to progress. >still the only game with a dedicated instrument you can play/record your own tunes on in-game. >might still be the only game that has a sidequest that extends nonlinearity of the main-game (Scarecrow's Song)
>>2879439 >Majora's Mask proved that complex diurnal/nocturnal cycles could be incorporated into games, expanding on what Ocarina of Time was the first game to do. Dragon Quest/Warrior beat MM to the punch on this for sure.
>>2879536 It feels... Smarter than the way Miyazaki's games do with their atmosphere. That's not to say they're dumb by any means, it just feels very intentional and core to the foundation of the game's world and setting. Infecting every semblance of mood and vibe. Every character, piece of dialogue, and piece of music. MM just makes me downright uncomfortable in a way I think is damn brilliant. Not like a horror game, more like David Lynch.
>>2879714 I like this. And not because I just binged through twin peaks. I only played through MM once, there was some awesome dreamy tree scene near the end... no other Zelda carried such thoughtful atmosphere.
>>2879495 Daggerfall didn't do any of those things. It has a procedurally-generated world, which isn't the same. I won't fault it for trying, but to claim it did what OoT did is an affront on your intelligence. Also, youtubing the game for the first time, I can see OoT had a draw distance like 100 times Daggerfall's software 3D draw distance (but that's again, something only OoT was the first to do, every game before it would have enemies phase in or out).
>>2879517 Pics? I'd really like to see this, so I can stop saying that.
>>2879537 Negatory. It would turn the camera to face the nearest enemy. That's it. Hardly comparable to simulating an 360 degree arena around the enemy you can interact with at every axis needed.
>>2881056 >Pics? I'd really like to see this, so I can stop saying that.
Not him, and I don't have pics, but Dragon Quest 3 introduced a day/night cycle in which the colour palette slowly changes on the overworld as time passes, and events in towns differ depending on the time of day. It's arguably more fleshed out in that game than in OoT, since there's a lot of things that differ in towns between day and night. There's even a quest that requires you to sneak into a castle at night to catch an imposter king while he sleeps.
>Is this Kingdom Hearts game good? >What Fable game should I start with? >muh flat screen >muh Halo >muh mid 00s browser games >rachet and clanker 1 or 2? >GTA3 or vice city? >San Andreas or Liberty City Stories? >GTA Advance or Vice City Stories?
>>2878954 I agree with you to an extent, but I think you're missing what it actually IS that fans like so much about OoT. Which makes it hard for you to justify your position in a meaningful way to those fans.
Anyway, when I play a Zelda game, it's all about the gameplay. Not the story, characters, atmosphere or anything else. Just the gameplay and design (speaking in terms of level layouts and puzzles, BTW). So I love the original Zelda and AlttP. They're both carried entirely by their gameplay and general design, with other factors coming in second.
OoT is an atmosphere building game first and foremost. It has very distinct music, sounds, colors, and etc. It draws you in because of the atmosphere, and then you don't mind the fact that it's actually a mediocre game otherwise. Kind of like Sony Fans and Soul Reaver.
And I know I'll get shit on for this, because Nintendo fans all still seem to think that OoT's gameplay is 10/10, GOAT and all that derpiness. But really. Even for the time, combat was repetitive and a chore at times and a lot of game elements on their own were par at best. It's just that the way that those elements interact makes the game better than the sum of it's parts. Rather like Resident Evil 4, actually (but that's another topic for another time)
It's the whole experience that draws people into OoT, and not any one element (like gameplay). So if you go in expecting it to play amazingly, then yeah. You'll hate it. If you go in expecting to have a grand adventure and get drawn in by the atmosphere, then you'll fucking love it.
All that aside, OoT is only the third most over rated game ever made. Behind Final Fantasy VII and Halo. But it's not exactly BAD. It's just not THAT good. I'd personally rate it as a 7.5/10 game on the whole. But I'm not into games like OoT in general.
Oh, and what's up with SotN beng "the first"? It was a super Metroid Rip off, and Castlevania 2 did a similar formula first as well. SotN is more like the 5th, lol...
>>2881437 >Both Doom and Ultima only came because of what Japan had done before.
Don't know if troll or just stupid.
Ultima 1 directly inspired literally every top-down RPG and action game on the japanese market, including final fantasy and LoZ.
As far as doom, pls see the reply I make to the next poster.
>Daggerfall didn't do what Ocarina of Time did I beg to differ. Daggerfall did what Nintendon't.
>mass market way that appealed to everyone nobody gives a fuck because that's not what we're discussing.
Argument was whether a sandbox game could be completed. Daggerfall was a sandbox game that could be completed.
Hell, if we want to mince shit, move goalposts, and discount Daggerfall altogether, Elite was a sandbox game that came out even earlier. Hell, so is Frontier: Elite 2.
>Daggerfall isn't very good. Again, no fucks given. We're not talking about whether it's good, or whether it has mass market appeal: we're talking about whether it's a sandbox game or not.
>LoZ is hardly a sandbox. You can go wherever, but you get fucked if you don't do it properly.
Git gud and this doesn't happen. Srsly, grind for rupees and get heart containers to get the blue ring and the white sword and most of the dungeons can be done in any order.
The only reason it isn't a sandbox is because you're making blind assertions about it. If anything, it's a far more non-linear game than OOT.
>Mario Paint is a game, not a program I can concede this
>Arguing about a sidequest that's a sidequest Again, stick to the fucking point and don't move goalposts.
Primary argument made was >has a sidequest that extends nonlinearity of the main-game
response was >The scarecrow's song allows no sequence breaks in the main quest
I'm correct in refuting the main argument. Scarecrow's song doesn't "extend nonlinearity of the main-game" -- it allows access to a few heart containers and gold skulltulas and provides a single convenience in making the sacred forest meadow slightly easier
>>2881407 >OoT is an atmosphere building game first and foremost. It has very distinct music, sounds, colors, and etc. It draws you in because of the atmosphere >It's the whole experience that draws people into OoT, and not any one element
Completely agreed, in this regard it is superior to everything else.
>and then you don't mind the fact that it's actually a mediocre game otherwise.
But disagreed here. The enemies could have been far better of course, but the mysteries, exploration, world design and so on are absolutely top notch, and at least very much superior to LttP. I'm actually very much buthurt that LoZ pulled off the style of difficulty that the rest of the series should have taken after, yet doesn't. It's the one thing about OoT that I would change if I could, and its unfortunate that the remake didn't go far enough here.
As someone who's at the final palace of Alundra right now, this is complete bullshit. Alundra is essentially the equivalent of what TP would have been were it 2D. It's mostly a huge slog through a long sequence of dungeons. It doesn't have better quests, exploration, atmosphere or storytelling than Zelda, and combat wise it's sightly less difficult than LttP. You get some freedom on getting the spring beans, but there's nothing massively compelling or interactive about the world.
The most notable thing it has is a handful of logic puzzles that are more difficult than the Zelda equivalent, but it otherwise lacks the cleverly constructed mysteries that Zelda has.
What do you expect? Modern Nintendo is just a generally terrible company. The Wii is the perfect console to represent them: sterile, flimsy, highly derivative, half-assed, and thoroughly laced with gimmicks.
>>2882467 >DLC What, price things like they did 10 years ago? Super Smash Bros is probably the second most expensive game to get all the DLC simply because they want ridiculous amounts of money for it. (First was DOA5LR, by an unbelievable margin).
If Nintendo had a "fun-first" mentality they'd use a standard goddamn controller like everyone else and be a lot friendlier to 3rd party devs. They'd also either clean up their online garbage or chuck it out altogether, it's not fun in the least.
>>2878920 The obvious answer (so obvious that I don't even know why it's a question) is Ocarina of Time, which has been consistently called the greatest game of all time for 17 years running. Majora's Mask was actually panned for a long time for being so different and only fairly recently have defenders come out of the woodwork. There is a hugely vocal fanbase championing for Majora's Mask but it still doesn't hold a candle to the praise Ocarina of Time got and still gets.
>>2883159 >(so obvious that I don't even know why it's a question)
It's not all that obvious because:
a) Ocarina really is that good b) MM's fanbase are crazy and completely adamant that the game has no flaws whatsoever and if you dislike any aspect of it is clearly your fault and you'd not care if you just got gud
>>2883206 I suppose if you buy into the bullshit hype surrounding OoT, then yeah, that's what it seems like. However people whose nostalgia goggles aren't on so tight that they cut off the bloodflow to their brains see it differently.
>>2883272 >So I was talking with my wife the other day, and now that it's been 15 years and the dust has settled, we decided to talk about MM and OoT. My wife thinks OoT has aged terribly and is just boring by today's standards, while I think MM is a bullshit autistic time-management simulator, even if it did have slightly better waifus.
>>2883226 >I suppose if you buy into the bullshit hype surrounding OoT I played it having no idea what the hell the game was supposed to be like or that it was regarded as what it was. It completely blew me away like nothing else has and absolutely deserves to be considered the GOAT, and that's in spite of the weaknesses it has. At the very least is has the best foundation in the series, even though having NES tier combat balance and MM/WW level NPC interaction would meaningfully improve it.
LttP is the most nostalgia dependent game by a fair margin.
>>2883526 So what do you regard as being better? What are the titles that have come out since then that have clearly surpassed it? I mean hell, I played it after getting over the "holy shit, vidya is just awesome" stage and it really surprised me how good it was. Plenty of people who played it as adults also had similar reactions.
>>2883206 Majora's Mask is one of my favorite games of all time. I think it's absolutely fascinating. But I will be the first one to tell you it has some BIG glaring problems that are hard to forgive. It does some stuff real well, and it does some other stuff real bad. I can't recommend it to people without providing caveats.
>>2883654 I think a lot of the stuff with the time management and backtracking and repetition could have been smoothed out and designed in a way that is less bothersome. I don't care for the dungeons much at all. I think there are a lot of aspects of that game that are just tedious and kind of frustrating. I do love it dearly, but I understand why people take issue with it. I think those complaints are totally valid.
>>2883690 Respectable opinion, anon. Likewise, I see what people who love the game enjoy so much about it, but I personally didn't find it much fun for the reasons you listed. For me it's a game that I appreciate more than I enjoy, and for that reason I can respect people who are able to enjoy it even though I don't feel the same.
>>2882491 Actually what I was getting at. That shit is nuts. Should be a 5 dollar bundle for costumes and a character and that's it.
>>2882651 Different strokes for different folks. Wonderful 101, Bayonetta 2, and a handful of others.
Mostly everything I want is multiplat, so I could get a PC for the ones I want and say fuck off to consoles. The only game I'd like is Bloodborne, and there's no way of knowing if it'll be on PC anytime soon.
Again, that's a personal preference sort of thing.
>>2881430 >Doom and Ultima are more important to modern games than anything coming out of Japan. Never. >Daggerfall See above. Daggerfall didn't do anything better than OoT. >if by "first" you mean "another game in a long line of games with an action key", then you're right. Context-sensitive action button means a button which dynamically changes function depending on the context. Roll, grab, throw, take out fairy, jump, jump attack, cancel, dive, dismount. Etc. >what do you mean by "manipulable" exactly? It's a vehicle you can interact with in 3D by getting on or off and not just a change in avatar. >although its a shit game and tumblr tier, Life is Strange has far more interactive time travel. Not played, so I won't consider it. >Morrowind's expansions require vehicle use. Also, if you git gud, epona nor the longshot are needed to enter gerudo valley. Expansions are not part of the game, unless I'm missing something. And pause buffering doesn't count as it's an exploit. That is what I was referring to, but there's also the Biggoron Sword quest and all of Gerudo Valley can only be reached with Epona if you don't have the Longshot (even if you pause buffer, you still need the Hookshot or Epona). >Mario paint arguably wins this if you count a midi synthesizer as an instrument. Does Mario Paint record duration, octave, pitch? I don't know so I'm asking. >The scarecrow's song allows no sequence breaks in the main quest. It's almost 100% used for side quests or convenience. Scarecrow's Song is almost exclusively for sequence-breaks. Skipping the forest maze, getting to the Fishing Hole with only a Hookshot, getting Fire Arrows early, Fire Temple early and skipping Link-Goro and Sheik. The only scarecrow points that aren't are the Fire Temple's that takes you to the elevator, the one in Jabu-Jabu on top of the giant boulder, and the one in Dodongo's Cavern.
>>2878954 >having to go back to Temple of Time to warp every time >that shitty overworld >the only fleshed out town is Hyrule (child)/Kakariko (adult) These are artifacts of older Zeldas, it's also probably laziness as well. Since 3D Zeldas have less of a focus on combat and more about atmosphere/overall experience, there is no reason to have just two towns. The game is just... lacking in content. I think they focused too heavily on dungeons, which is sad because they aren't even that good.
>none of the enemies pose a challenge aside from Iron Knuckle, who is rare You would have to absolutely suck at video games to find a 3D Zelda to be difficult, in terms of combat (especially with all the bottles and stuff). Using your shield practically grants you invincibility, and you'd risk being called a liar if you said that most enemies in this game were aggressive. I will say, though, that some of the bosses, like Jabu's, were well done. I had a really good time fighting JabuJabu's boss.
It's a game about atmosphere. You'd have to be retarded to say that this Zelda is the pinnacle of the series' gameplay. Now, I'm primarily an action gamer. But, that doesn't mean I can't appreciate atmosphere. I prefer MM, and I'm able to admit that one of the reasons for that is because of it's atmosphere. The atmosphere in MM has a tone; dark, brooding, maybe frantic. What is the atmosphere tone in OoT?
Some people like things for inexplicable reasons. That's ok. But still, I fail to understand why OoT is praised so highly; especially in comparison to MM. This thread is about a comparison between the two, and MM completely blows OoT out of the water. I seriously am trying to think of things that this game did well, and I'm at a loss. Combat sucks, puzzles are either way too easy or super tedious, I never really felt any atmosphere, much of the world is empty...
Slightly unrelated, but I'll finish by saying that I really liked the Master Quest version of OoT.
>>2878920 I've never seen anyone call MM the greatest game ever made mind you I haven't seen OoT called that in quite some time, but the point stands that OoT has been sung more praise than Majora, even though in my humble opinion Majora deserves it more (neither of them are GOAT)
>>2885412 >Does Mario Paint record duration, octave, pitch? I don't know so I'm asking.
Mario paint literally has a midi synthesizer. see >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akseS3O9KdQ
>Scarecrow's Song is almost exclusively for sequence-breaks
This is true, but the topic isn't sequence breaks in general...it's main quest sequence breaks.
Do shadow and spirit ahead of fire and forest on account of the scarecrow and I'll consider it.
>Not played, so I won't consider it.
The plot is literally that you're a hipster girl that has the power to arbitrarily rewind time. The gameplay is basically "do this, fuck it up, rewind time, pick the right answer".
>Never. Many modern game engines incorporate code from doom, as inherited by quake. If the engine isn't directly a descendant of doom/quake, then it was made as a competitor to doom/quake (seem unreal, marathon, halo, etc).
Ultima 1 inspired literally every other top-down adventure and RPG game that exists. Period. Ultima underworld was the first in the line of games like system shock, deus ex, and others that created the whole modern "3D action RPG" genre.
As far as japanese games go, though, they stopped being relevant to the industry after RE4. Literally nothing from japan has had an effect on western game design since, with everything in the west being basically Deus Ex++, GTA with RE4's camera and shooting mechanics, or a sports game. Or, of course, a tell-tale game that is basically a 70s text adventure but with graphics.
>It's a vehicle you can interact with in 3D by getting on or off and not just a change in avatar.
oh, ok. Conceded. I was going to reference daggerfall's horse, but that's not manipulable by this definition.
>See above. Daggerfall didn't do anything better than OoT.
"See above"? What, the word "never", which I refuted?
Also, it's not about it being better -- it's about it meeting the definition of "completable sandbox", which it definitely is.
>>2885706 >Mario Paint I see, but that's not quite the same. >Do shadow and spirit ahead of fire and forest I'm 99% certain you never need either the bow or hammer for the Shadow Temple. Because of this, you can use the Scarecrow's Song if you have the Longshot (for which only Din's Fire is needed), to skip over to Bongo Bongo and avoid shooting down the raven statue at the end. In Early OoT screenshots you see that Link was able to plant Magic Beans as an adult. but on topic, there was no heart piece with a crate in the graveyard. Because there is in the final game, you can bomb jump and seam walk into the Shadow Temple, which is just an exploration of the game's physics. At this point you can enter with Din's Fire or Fire Arrows (only available with Scarecrow's Song before completing the Water) and complete the dungeon. Though, that is entering exploit territory, as it means you can enter Ganon's Castle upon completing the Spirit Temple. But this may be intentional.
>Doom/Ultima I've seen this posted before in John Carmack's quote, but I've never see evidence for it. Everything else you posted is anecdotal to that. I doubt that SM64 runs on Doom's engine.Also, western games still rip-off off Winback.
I somehow missed out on the N64 Zeldas as a kid and played both for the first time a few years ago as a teenager. The reason they're beloved isn't nostalgia, they really are great games and hold up fine despite their flaws. I'd put them as equal, but I guess if I really had to I'd say I prefer MM slightly just for the atmosphere. Even though the time system eventually becomes meaningless, running out for the first time is one of the most memorable experiences in gaming.
>>2885658 It's a perfect Hero's Quest that sums up the childlike feeling of adventure/ going out into the big scary world plus the feeling of being a truly special person, enhanced by amazing art direction and music. So basically its Star Wars is what I realized while writing this.
>>2878920 OoT >better dungeons >better boss battles >story is poetic and timeless MM >better side quests >alternate universes and shit >masks were goat Both are good in their own ways Windwaker is the best 3d zelda game
World was small yet travel was still annoying. The loss of color variety sucked, way too much brown and green in the same shades. Lack of a jump button and better climbing options was annoying. Aiming with the N64 was annoying. Many enemies and puzzle styles didn't adapt well to 3D. Gameplay and combat were way to simplified, weird thing to say I know considering where it came from, but there so often was just one solution to a situation.
I will say the spirit was still there and for those who played these as their first Zelda's I can see how exciting it would be anticipating the next place to explore and see at the time. Many of my complaints are likely tied to the N64 hardware itself as well.
>>2889490 >Lack of a jump button Why should there be a jump button? Wouldn't that be unnecessary considering most of the jumping is done automatically anyways? I can understand most of your other points however.
>better climbing options Meh. I thought the climbing was decent as is. Wasn't much fast but wasn't much slow either like in TP.
>>2889490 >World was small yet travel was still annoying. Much more true of LttP and AoL. The 64 games give you appropriate shortcuts out the wazoo.
>The loss of color variety sucked, way too much brown and green in the same shades. Wut? What are you even comparing them to? How many games even make better use of color?
>Lack of a jump button and better climbing options was annoying. Again, LA and AoL were the only things with jumping, and you couldn't climb.
>Aiming with the N64 was annoying. Compared to not being able to aim at all aside from cardinal directions and having full rotational freedom? You rarely had to aim a enemies specifically, except when this was a deliberate challenge.
>Many enemies...didn't adapt well to 3D The one actually solid and perfectly reasonable criticism here. What 'puzzle styles' are you talking about though?
>Gameplay, too simplified, but there so often was just one solution to a situation This is flat out false. The 64 titles are at least as complex as any 2D game, easily, and hardly want for things with multiple solutions. The 2D titles don't have quests as elaborate. The combat is the one thing that they are actually substantially weaker at.
>>2889508 Because jumping would have put more control in the players hand. The automatic jump was lame because you may as well not have a need to jump anyway. Would have made it feel a bit more of an adventure by giving more control to the player. And it was absolutely possible for it to have been that way.
>>2889546 >Much more true of LttP and AoL. The 64 games give you appropriate shortcuts out the wazoo. Rolling around until you get horse so no. That was annoying.
>Wut? What are you even comparing them to? How many games even make better use of color? LttP had more colors. N64s limited hardware had to shade everything instead of using a range like previous hardware or textures, which is why most N64 games look like a box of basic crayola colors. Not really Zelda's fault, but still its less interesting to look at.
>Again, LA and AoL were the only things with jumping, and you couldn't climb. Not relevant. Its not about what other Zelda games did, its about what should have been. Its something the player could have controlled, another aspect of challenge.
>Compared to not being able to aim at all aside from cardinal directions and having full rotational freedom? You rarely had to aim a enemies specifically, except when this was a deliberate challenge. This is an excuse. Again a hardware limitation, but no less dumb to play look around for the eye to hit. It just slows shit down. Its a minor nitpick to be fair though.
>This is flat out false. The 64 titles are at least as complex as any 2D game, easily, and hardly want for things with multiple solutions. The 2D titles don't have quests as elaborate. The combat is the one thing that they are actually substantially weaker at.
The complexity was not a comparison of 2D to 3D, but poor use of 3D, with exception to the puzzles. Enemies basically waited around for you and the game was littered with wait until they stop blocking bad guys. As for the 2D vs 3D every puzzle was use the thing you just got. Less thinking.
>>2883621 this guy is the only one who isn't a hipster here the rest of you are cancer your idiotic arguments all boil down to "Yes it is!" "No, it's not!" you're arguing opinion as if it's fact, and you're just as bad as the morons who beat eachother up over their favorite sports teams.
>>2889615 >Rolling around until you get horse so no. You don't have to do this often at all. You gain access to at least one new short cut quickly on visiting each necessary place. You can go straight from the mountain to the woods, walk through a log and swim to Zora's domain, which can also be reached from Lake Hylia, which can be swum to from Gerudo Valley. And there's the owl's ability to fly you across the place on top of that. Running around LttP's world with the big moat in the centre is more annoying.
>LttP had more colors. What the actual fuck? I don't even know where to begin here. >N64s limited hardware had to shade everything I assume you aren't aware of what bi-linear filtering is, or how to match texture co-ordinates in screen space? LttP has a straight up much more restricted pallet.
>As for the 2D vs 3D every puzzle was use the thing you just got. Less thinking. Again, what? What are examples of the more advanced quests/puzzles/mysteries in the 2D games that the 3D games supposedly don't have? Why is it that LttP fans seem to have such bizarre conceptions of the games?
God I hate A Link to the Past. "Here, explore almost the exact same world again but in a different color". And it goes on and on. There's like 12 dungeons and I was losing interest by the 5th one. It's so stretched out.
>What the fuck does a comparison have anything to do with it?
You never played it when it was new, you have no way of comparing it's quality at release with it now, you cannot make the statement that it aged well. You have no idea if it aged well, you just enjoyed it.
>>2880431 >Twilight Princess right afterwards is what caused me to realise that Zelda was tired and shit tier and probably never an above average series to begin with. Nah, that's just true of most of the series after TP. That said, I personally felt Okami was just okay as a game with its only high points being the graphics and the somewhat interesting brush system.
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