Starfinder General /sfg/

>>54081692

It is a little upsetting. Especially considering you would have a party to pool funds for or what ever. I mean I guess it is cool everyone gets their own ship?

>>54081692
Given their reasoning, I'm okay with it.

>>54081692
That...is depressing, yes. Where is their reasoning?

>>54081692

For what it's worth I would still give players the option to do those things regardless. If anything it would simplify a lot of stuff so I can focus on selling specific stuff instead or if they have too much money manage it with maintence/hanger fees.

>>54081692
It's a pretty fun and intuitive thing to remove from a space game and it will very likely be ignored and homebrewed in from day 1.

>>54081912
There were two sets

1. That people would spend money on their ship but fail to properly equip the PC.
1b. The reverse of above

2. That after the PCs go a long time without needing a Space ship and level up a lot, they're suddenly under equipped for level appropriate challenges

>>54081912
>The interesting thing about having personal and starship economies using the same currency is that it leads to big traps for the PCs: If you overspend on personal, your ship is too weak, and if you overspend on the ship, your PC is too weak. For a time, we had two economies to handle items and ship upgrades: Basically credits would handle personal upgrades but you could scavenge enemy ships for parts to upgrade your ship, with a poor exchange rate between them to discourage the trap of overspending on one. What was in some ways a blessing (the more you like spaceship fights, the more you upgrade your spaceship) proved to be a curse when it came to using ships periodically after a long period of not using them and thus falling behind on upgrades, so the new system of upgrading over the course of leveling as part of what the PCs do during downtime automatically was born, with a similar track to the second economy but gained by level instead. It wouldn't be too hard to kitbash something like the old system where you don't get those points by level and have to earn them via ship fights or credits for any group that was interested, but beware the trap I mentioned above if you do!

>>54081692 >>54081912
Nevermind, found it.

WHELP. Guess who's going to roll up a space pirate and just steal the damn ship I want instead.

That's right. This fag right here.

I get their reasoning, but to be honest I still wish they had put these things in as optional rule sets (both cybernetics and ships as things you can buy and sell). They could have done that instead of a full chapter that's apparently going to amount to "Please don't try to convert PF classes to SF."

>>54082059
While I am disappointed, I actually think they made the right choice. No system is better than a bad system, especially if you're going to deal with people coming from Pathfinder.

On top of that, you know people are gonna steal the system from Star Wars and other similar systems and post them as PDFs. We can offer them to people and give the dis/ advantages of each and let them make a better choice

>>54082055
Huh, think I found some art for that character, too. She just wanted to buy a starship so that she could go home, but no one would sell her one, and she got sick of waiting for a flight home. So she stole one.

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>>54082145
Damnit forgot the art.

>>54082145
>>54082055
>so a bunch of thieves break into the SAME ship
>Before they could stab each other, the alarms go off
>the ship crew rushes in, looking like they've seen the Reaper itself and just turn on the ship
>session 1 start

>>54082027
...

So why not just have two resources? One is your credit income that you need to upkeep your ship, and the other is your credits at hand that you can buy equipment that doesn't need income.

Or... even better... how about removing the equipment treadmill instead, so you don't HAVE to spend money to keep being equipped and don't fall into the trap of not having enough equipment?

I kinda like the idea of having to manage your ship and your gear. Kinda feels like Firefly and how they have to work for to get fuel, ammo and food but the ship needs repairs too.

>>54081692
>"There's lots of queer stuff in Starfinder, don't worry"

KEKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

>>54082367
>"There's lots of queer stuff in Starfinder, don't worry"
Source?

>>54081692
Extremely fine.
It's better to have a ship at the start.
Besides, players and DM can customize it, isn't it?

>>54082372
http://knowdirectionpodcast.com/2017/06/paizocon-2017-029-queering-your-world/

FUCKING

KEK

>>54082383
The ship scales with party level.
You can't buy parts to customise it, instead you get abstract points for that every level.

>>54082383
I believe so, but the point is that you can't do shiplike things with it.

You can't scavenge for parts, you can't buy upgrades, you can't ditch your little spacedingy for the pirate cruiser you boarded.

It's tied to your level, and heck with you if you want to do otherwise.

>>54082407
That's the worst fucking thing I've ever heard. I fucking love watching paizo burn

>>54082407
Ok, that have be because unlike Star Wars, you need to keep up with equipment grinding in order to succeed?

But admittedly, it's kind of unfun.

>>54082482
It's also total nonsense. You literally can't capture better ships than your own, which is a very iconic trope.

Well, that's a bit of an overreaction, I think. Just like in PF, you COULD get an artifact as a level 1 guy, it'd just break the WBL guidelines and the math of the game, but it's not like the gameplay itself would stop functioning.

>>54082529
You literally can't ever capture/buy/sell/scavenge ships. Not even at level 20.
The party's ship straight up scales with APL and you can't do anything about it. You can't invest in your ship, you can't upgrade it with scavenged parts, you can't replace it with an enemy ship you captured.

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>>54082394

>>54082625
Great, isn't it? Can't wait for the weeks upon weeks of mass effect androgynous style shitposting as soon as people start leaking pictures of the "writing".

It's going to be fucking amazing.

>>54082598
Why? Does the enemy ship have stats? Yes? Then you can replace it.

Just estimate a level for it, and don't get any upgrade points until the players catch up.

Scavenging is a different matter but that's easily rolled into the upgrades you get on levelup.

I mean, it's a shit system but it doesn't sound as disastrous.

>>54082672
>there's no problem because you can always homebrew solutions!
Fuck off, that attitude is cancer.

>>54082672
>already doing damage control for a fucking retarded system that literally replaces roleplaying with a retarded meta mechanic
Paizo faggots never change, just keep queering up your world!

>>54082683
That's not even a fucking homebrew.

"You capture a ship, great, you use that ship from now".

There was nothing needed to be homebrewed.

>>54082663
You know, at the very start, when the first hints of the rule changes were getting revealed I though "Wow, maybe Pazio learned something of 10 years of the Pathfinder shitshow and maybe figured out how to not be retarded."

And then every reveal since has shown that to not be the case. Cringe upon cringe upon questionable rulings upon downright shit rule ideas.

>>54082705
It's literally a houserule, m8.

>>54082727
What?

Being able to pick up a higher level weapon or ship is a houserule?

Is there a rule saying that if you step on the deck of another ship the control panels explode?

No?

Then it's not a houserule.

>>54082598
Your ship is just another character. It's your character for the space part of the game.
Basically it's like a PF wizard not being allowed to steal the spell book of a powerful NPC and instantly be able to cast all spells in it including those well above his level.

>>54082740
The rules are that the party has a single ship that is rigidly tied to the party's level. You can't legally swap it.

>>54082744
This. The millenium falcon and serenity are both piece of shit ships, but they have character and their captains wouldn't replace them for the world.

>>54082797

Most important part is their captains can't replace them for the lack of trustworthy crew members.
Unless you want to play ye pirate with 30+ crew members which is definitely one of the new adventure paths paizo going to do, changing ships don't not seem to worth all the problem for both players and DM.

>>54082755
You can't "legally" have a character have a higher level magic item, but that doesn't mean your hands explode if you pick them up.

>>54081692
>How do you feel about Paizo not trusting players to intelligently spend wealth and thus entirely removing starships from the economy? Are you upset by the fact that you can't buy ships, sell ships, or even scavenge enemy ships for spare parts?
It's honestly the first thing that genuinely makes me want to put Starfindef into the trash. All the SJW nonsense can be ignored, but treating spaceships like this is just... unplayable.

I would have a hard time convincing my group to try Starfindef since thry already hate on Pathfinder by default. This makes it impossible, because it's just an unacceptable flaw they'd (rightfully) latch on to, and I wouldn't be able to rationally defend it.

>waaahhh my level 1 character can't hijack the fucking Deathstar

>>54083085
If the DM is dumb enough to give the players the opportunity, they fucking well should be able to exploit it.

>>54082826
I forgot, can you hijack ships in Skulls path in Pathfinder?

>>54083140

Sure can. There is even room for sandbox adventures where you can just do pirate things. Towards the end of the campaign it is not uncommon for each party member to be the captain of their own ship.

>>54083067
I sort of get hijacking, I would have liked to see a scavenge option... that said, I hate PF and I'm quite excited for SF...

>>54083494
I was really excited until this. A group having a ship and working with that, getting new parts, repairing, hijacking, scavenging, plundering parts, uncovering archeotech or magitech from lost civilizations, they're huge, important tropes integral to the appeals at play here for me and my groups, and just abstracting all of that AND tying it to a separete per-person advancement scheme is just.. trash. Indefensible.

How's the reaction on places Paizo actually cares about? Any chance of them backpeddaling based on public reception? Or are people to busy trying to rationalize it in order to suck Paizo cock?

>>54083163
Tfw a PF AP does space piracy better than a game with actual space pirates.

>>54083626
>Or are people to busy trying to rationalize it in order to suck Paizo cock?
This.

>>54083663
Disheartening. Paizo will hopefully collapse under the accumulated weight of it's own circlejerk pandering.

>>54082859
>You can't "legally" have a character have a higher level magic item
Of course you can. Magic items aren't tied to your progression. You don't get to pick a Bag of Holding like a fucking feat.

>>54083626
those will probably be optional rules in a Starfider Ship-heavy book. That type of shit can take up a lot of room in a core book (really, they had this issue in Spelljammers and most sefearing guides, and when you add tech...well, BLOAT). So be a little patient.

>>54083888
Paizo explicitly said they don't intend to publish any splat. After the CRB and Alien Archive, it's only AP's.

>>54083085
>>54083085
The death star could never be hijacked, because you're three to six morons trying to fuck up a battle station run by thousands of people. It's like saying waah, you can't take over the entire capital of Cheliax at lvl 1. Well no shit.

But I can sure as hell take a house. And at some point, maybe a tower, or a keep. I could also invest gold into getting any of those things.

The more I think about it, the more fitting the analogy gets. Tying ships to a rigid character-based progression system in Starfinder is very much like as if you'd tie housing in Pathfinder to the same. It's absurd.

Or, for an analogy you can understand, waah, waah, I can't get the death star just by leveling to lvl 20 waah waah.

>>54083903
Source? Because if so, Starfinder really goes into the trash and I'm just going to leave.

>>54083922
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lj4s&page=2?Starfinder-What-Weve-Revealed-So-Far
>While there will be occasional rules supplements like bestiaries, the Starfinder Adventure Path will be a primary vector for new rules and setting information. Overall, we expect to release products for Starfinder at a much slower rate than we do for Pathfinder, making it easier and more affordable to stay up to date on both games.

>>54083949
In. To. The. trash.

It was a good run of hype and for a moment it seemed that they really had something going, but between the pandering, no proper spaceship stuff, and no hopes for proper expansion content outside of Adventure Path-specific content, Paizo can go fuck itself.

Hopefully there'll be some good high-science-fantasy slay-the-dragon roleplaying adventure game one day, but today is not that day.

>>54083903
I don't believe a word of that. I don't believe a word of that if Paizo said it themselves.

On the other hand, you can still expect 3PP to put stuff out.

>>54083922
>>54083903
>>54083995

>we expect to release products for Starfinder
This is not the same as 'not releasing any splats' by any interpretation whatsoever. The APs being a 'primary vector' is not the same as 'not releasing splats'. Almost everything in PF splats now is stuff from their APs and 3PP content, after all.

>>54083626
Yeah. I am going to wait for reviews from people I trust I think.

Only redeeming feature I can think of is then you get attached to the ship (but then scavenging would still help!!!). Like I get how Mal wouldn't want to leave Serenity or whatever, even though it's a pile of junk.

>>54084061
>Almost everything in PF splats now is stuff from their APs
Bullshit. Pure bullshit.

>>54085333
Don't really care about taking ships as opposed to salvaging and scavanging and upgrading, etc. The fact that is that Paizo fucks it all, due to their unwillingness to trust the players and DMs after giving proper guidelines, and to balance the economy properly, even with full control of the setting.

>>54081692
I think the issue is they didn't want equipment to become a sink that hamstrings development of other areas. They even said you can change it at your leisure without any real pain. I can see what their thinking is, but I'll probably just let players upgrade from enemy ships, etc.

>>54082394
What does "queering" even mean? Why would this matter in the Xth century?

>>54082161
>Sci-fi art
>Has filthy white men
>Not only, but white men with lovers, and CHILDREN

REEEE REEEEE REEEE

>>54085546
It's Russkie art, note the text on top. Russkies aren't SJW.

>>54085546
>tfw no WPFF Starfinder game

>>54085449
I actually liked 4e and 5e, though I've been playing since 3rd edition, so never looked in depth into Pathfinder personally - is Paizo that bad?

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>>54085546
Check this out.
>>54085580
Paizo is garbage.

>>54085580
Paizo maintains their game better than WotC ever did with 3e and 3.5. At this point, I'd say Pathfinder is a better system than 3.5.

However, Paizo itself is pretty fucking terrible.

>>54085580
Given I could make a Starfinder equivalent in 5e with a couple house rules and about four sessions of playtesting and have it not be garbage? Yes, Paizo is that bad.

>>54085583
Thank you... I was literally shaking at the last image, but this makes it better.

Just... Can people just not... I can't even right now, what compels someone to draw implied PIV rape in their art, and do it in such a casual, I'd even call encouraging, way?

>>54085632
Someone did that with Pathfinder, in the form of Starjammer.

It's 40k-wanking shit. Sci fi settings need their own rules system, even if it's based on the same core rules as a fantasy game.

>>54085583
OH GOD, MOTHER AND DAUGHTER HAVING A SNUGGLE! HOW SJW!

I don;'t hate Paizo, I hate these idiots who post in these threads.

>>54085645
> Sci fi settings need their own rules system

Since when?

>even if it's based on the same core rules as a fantasy game.
Well yeah, I find 4e and 5e DnD ruleset to be usable for some session of a sci-fi setting based on that sci-fi series based on bounty hunting whose title escape my mind for now.

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>>54081692
lets suggest core races for starfinder that would be better than the shit they have now. ill start

>ratfolk replaced by flying squirrels
not disgusting, actually cute, fun, can still make them GOTG tech racoons, and a unique gliding ability. WOW thats actually aesthetically pleasing and interesting!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkxNljd9IA8

>>54085638
So you're into lesbian incest? Because that's a her mother, you idiot.

>>54085658
At least it's not a father and daughter, the older woman could be a strong single mother who didn't need her deadbeat (let's be fair here, they're all deadbeats) husband.

>>54085661
Hadozee from Spelljammers/Star Frontiers. Already been done, no one liked them.

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>>54085661
Rats can be cute too, anon!

>>54085670
Hey, not all of them are deadbeats!

Some are just abusive.

>>54085661
>elves
For fuck's sake, they had spaceships and webways back in PF.

>>54085688
what are you trying to say here?

>>54085696
Elves in Starfinder were apparently "traumatised by the Gap" to the point they went into ultraisolationism and are irrelevant in space, never interacting with most races.
While, in my opinion, them not being core is ridiculous, given their rich history of spacefaring and planetary travel.

>>54085686
Oh my god will you please GO AND STAY GO WITH THE R@s

>>54085687
Being a deadbeat is a form of abuse!

>>54085696
Elves in Pathfinder are part of an interstellar community; look up the Aiudara and the Sovyrian Stone. Remember the Aen Elle from The Witcher 3? It's kiiiinda like that.

>>54085710
They are still in the core book; we'll get stats for all the core pathfinder races there. they just aren't nearly as prevalent to the galactic community.

>>54085718
>they just aren't nearly as prevalent to the galactic community.
And that's nonsense.

>>54085688
ever setting doesnt have to have elves, you fucking nigger. use your creativity

>>54085710
>While, in my opinion, them not being core is ridiculous, given their rich history of spacefaring and planetary travel.

Anon, that's like saying China had a rich history of naval exploration and empire-building up until they had the cultural ennui making them turbo-isolationists... Which is kind of what happened to the Elves. They lost centuries of knowledge, putting your average elf on-par in terms of knowledge and wisdom with the average Human, and the loss of all that accumulated knowledge horrified them to the point of NEETdom.

Long-lived races suffer from amnesia the most.

>>54085722
Lies and slander, we needed to nudge Elves out of the Core slot for rats! Rats are more important than Elves!

>>54082193
Alternatively, why not design the game so that you don't need to have anything more than basic equipment and still have a viable character?

Ah, doesn't matter. I'm going to be converting the Starfinder classes to 5e D&D either way.

>>54085726
>garbage taste posting

I rather have elves first than rats and insects.
Fuck your muh gritty setting fetish, I want my pretty aesthetic.

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>>54085754
nothing stops you from houseruling it, son. If you're a GM, you can change whatever you like about the setting - up to and including swapping the setting out wholesale.

>>54085754
>Fuck your muh gritty setting fetish

Can we even call Starfinder that? They've got an aesthetic that's too clean and shiny to be Dead Space industrial, too gritty to be Apple Store sleek, too high adventure for Cyberpunk yet too mired in social issues to be a Space Opera.

From what has been shown so far, how easily will I be able to use Starfinder to run a campaign based on Outlaw Star?

>>54085783
Considering it is designed core for party adventure to the tune of Cowboy Bebop and Star Wars, pretty easily.

>>54085783
Pretty easily from what we've seen.

>>54085783
Probably incredibly easily from the looks of things. Though the way the autists are acting, you're more likely to get Vandread (aka women find a guy and treat him like shit because they don't know what the fuck men are anymore).

>>54082797
Bad example for both the Falcon and Serenity - we SEE Mal buy Serenity in a flashback in one episode; and Han won the Falcon from Lando in a card game.

This is leaving aside that not everyone is necessarily so attached to their starship.

But most importantly of all, it's fucking dissonant as Hell. What's the in-universe reason for the fact that every time I try and buy a ship, I'm cockblocked? Does this happen to other people in the universe? What's stopping them?

>>54085754
>I want my pretty aesthetic.
you can make races that are pretty but not elfs, anon. thats what this post >>54085661
was all about

i would replace elfs with merfolk

>>54085778
Let's all now imagine Paizo trying to make a sci Fi setting as grungy and gritty as dead space while also trying to talk about the gender politics and sexual preferences of the people in that setting.

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How much would you expect a starship to cost anyway? I'd expect a party-size ship to cost somewhere in the hundreds of thousands of credits/UPBs (assuming they're tied to gold). For the sake of comparison, a shuttle (up to 10 passengers plus a pilot) in Stars Without Number costs 200k credits, and a basic spike drive/hyperspace upgrade costs 10k. How would the party collectively get the scratch to buy stuff like that legitimately? I doubt your average party would be able to afford anything beyond the basics unless they pooled their wealth and rewards were ramped up to compensate.

But yes, not being able to scavenge or loot parts is beyond me. Maybe they're using spaceships like summoner eidolons, which still doesn't make sense.

>>54086014
Since this is about futuristic setting, I fully expect the spaceship initially to be bought by loan, as with most vehicles, for most low level campaign and working off that loan by doing favors be one of the major hook.

>>54086014
If we're going by firearm pricing, when technology advances sufficiently, higher tech items are reduced to 10% of their original price, so those should come out to 20k and 1k respectively.

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>>54086109
Really? Guess I'll just houserule or stick with SWN or Ops & Tactics or something.

>>54086156
>>54086109

To be fair, what he said have precedent in real life, Until automation, cars cost more than houses on average.
Now, cars only cost a few months worth of salary while houses in cities still take decades to pay off.

>>54086156
well, the game makes the assumption that you start with a starship, or get one very quickly. I imagine hijacking is common.

also, Player cash is going to be trending a lot higher. In an interview a while ago, a level 1 pistol - a terrible weapon by all accounts - cost 300 credits. this implies that you can get a lot more credits than you can gold in Pathfinder.

>>54082027
That is a pretty retarded way to say "we are bad at game design and don't value player freedom either".

>>54086321
I blame the Starfinder Society and organized play.

We're getting a Gundam supplement, so I'd say wait for those.

At the same time, I'm not completely disagreeing with them. It does suck, a lot, but I've been in groups where players just spend more and more on making their numbers go higher and I'd be one out of four people investing in the Ship.


At the same time, seriously, how easy do you think it is to swap the engine from a cruise ship? Or steal a Battleships's gun? This isn't chop shop stuff, you know. I wouldn't mind being able to do it, but still.

>>54083842
>Magic items aren't tied to your progression.

That's literally what the WBL is, dude.

>You don't get to pick a Bag of Holding like a fucking feat.

No, you get it out of magic mart or have the wizard craft it, or conveniently find it in a pile of treasure, just when there's a BoH sized hole in your WBL...

>>54082493
I dunno about that... for very specific stories, maybe. But the kind of stuff that I'm looking to mimic with SF (Firefly, Cowboy Bebop, Star Wars... hell, even Star Trek, which I don't plan to emulate at all), changing ships almost never happens. The group's ship is almost as much a character as its crew. It seems like that's the type of game that the SF devs are going for.

I still think they should have included an optional system for buying and selling starship stuff, though, for those that want it. Hopefully it won't be too hard to homebrew (one of the devs on the forum said it should be pretty easy).

>>54085722
>The planet with all the elves on it disappeared, so there aren't many elves in space.
>And that's nonsense.
No it fucking isn't.

>>54087380
The homeworld of elves is Castrovel, m8, and it still exists just fine.
Golarion was just a backwater colony of theirs.

>>54086014
>But yes, not being able to scavenge or loot parts is beyond me
I think the idea is that you are scavenging and looting parts, that's what explains the upgrades you get by level. They just want things to be a little more structured for balance reasons. Maybe think of it as a maintenance thing: keeping a ship made of scavenged parts running takes a lot of effort and maintenance, and you just can't maintain that much at early levels. As you grow and gain experience, you can keep more of it running better, you learn tricks to help keep certain parts going, and so on, so you can make better use of those parts you've been scavenging off of enemy ships over the years.

It's not a perfect explanation, but it's a serviceable hand-wave until we see the full system and know how easy it will be to put together a real scavenging system.

>>54081692
Honestly, I wouldn't mind it if there's just one ship that the party uses.

Kind of like in FTL: Faster than Light, you don't change your ship around at all because it's reliable and powerful. You just upgrade it.

>>54087248
Changing ships rarely happens, but upgrading, repairing, and salvaging ships happens a hell of a lot

>>54087547
But how will people steal the Deathstar as a ported over Pathfinder Wizard at level 1?

>>54087651
>>54087248
Part of the crew, part of the ship.

>>54087651

>muh ramshackle underdog shitheap

Fuck off.

This whole thread is full of angry children who are mad that they aren't allowed to do whatever they want and shit all over what tedious balance there will exist.

Deal with it, fatties.

>>54087547
Note that in FTL you get to pick which ship you start with

>>54087941
I'll be happy if there's optional rules for buying/selling and some fluffy hand wave of points = scavenging

>>54086156
I wish all seven of you who actually play either of those systems in the world much joy.

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I was looking forward to Starfinder, I fucking love Sci-fi. But I keep seeing Anons saying that removing ships from the economy isn't the first thing they're fucking up.

Can someone give me a quick recap of all the stuff they're fucking up for Starfinder?

>>54089131
There really doesn't appear to be much wrong here, anon. The blog Know Direction released a podcast on LGBT characters in Starfinder, and people took the opportunity to complain about the one other thing people are dissatisfied with.

>>54089131
I'm miffed because they butchered elves despite elves having "the spacefaring race" as their main defining trait in Pathfinder.

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>>54089168
That's good, hopefully it won't be complete trash on release. But with these new starship rules and focus on adventure modules for new rules and gear, one can only hope.

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>>54089296
If it helps, they're also providing conversion rules and guidelines, so theoretically, anything they release for Pathfinder is also available in Starfinder with a little work.

>>54089339
False. The conversion rules will amount to a whole chapter saying "please don't try to convert PF classes to SF, as it's a horribly bad idea" - that much has already been said.

>>54089358
Uh, no, they wouldn't be including any conversion rules at all if that was the case. they wouldn't be including level 9 spells in the core rulebook if you couldn't somehow get access to wizards; they've specifically said they're not as common as they were in the pathfinder era by any approximation, but everything around in pathfinder is still around in Starfinder, and the rules are meant to support that.

You're just talking out your ass.

>>54089452
Level 9 spells aren't confirmed. The only thing that was confirmed is that talents can give you something similar to wish/miracle specifically.

Moreover, they explicitly said multiple times that converting PF classes is a bad idea and not recommended.

>>54089452
For one, 9th level spells doesn't necessarily mean wizards, it could mean rituals, magic items, class features, or any number of other ways to get access to those spells without casting them directly.

And second, they very explicitly said that the chapter on conversions would give advice on how to try converting if you're stupid enough to try it, but would also make it clear that it's not worth it, and that converting stuff would be very difficult and not work very well.

>>54089131
It's a bunch of complaints about literally hearsay because we don't have the actual rules, just random complaints about people who say shit about stuff they know absolutely nothing about (out of inadvertent ignorance because the book isn't out yet).

At least anti-SJW-fucktard can't complain anymore now that we have proof of white males and heterosexuality in the goddamn fucking book.

>>54089242
They lost their memories, fampire. Real psychological stuff that would mess someone up.

>>54089641
>At least anti-SJW-fucktard can't complain anymore now that we have proof of white males and heterosexuality in the goddamn fucking book.

Uhh... You'll need to cite that for me before I actually agree with it. Where the heck are the white men and families?

>>54089873

In secreted facilities where they are being feminized and turned into BBC loving Spade Queens

>>54081692
I feel that they are idiots.

if they felt that they need to make more restrictions on available ships they could have done it through stealing shit from real life.

1) No one will sell military grade equipment to some hobos with a rusty space can.
2) Even if someone will sell some better equipment you still need to jury rig it to work with your shitty ship. Which means it will either lose effectiveness, break down sometimes or you'll need to refit a good chunk of your ship for more money.
3) Some parts may not work together at full power which ties in point 2. Doesn't matter if you have an energy generator capable of producing 25 shittons of energy when all your weapons and drives can use only 2.

Now the problem with such approach you need to not suck at math and be ready for some creative players using ships with skewed loadouts.

>>54089873
In these two pictures of SF art, literally in this thread.
>>54082161
>>54085583

>>54090279
Those aren't SF art, retard. Both are from the Russian website 2061.su, a collab project about imagining a Soviet Union that would have survived to 2061.
It's utterly unrelated to Starfinder.
t. I posted one of those pictures myself

>>54090106
And that's why they didn't do it that way. They are streamlining, not making the game into autism-r-us like 4e was.

>>54090294
then that's too bad, I was hopeful for a few seconds. thank you for crushing my hopes and dreams that at least one autistic screeching dipshit was shut up permanently.

Asshole.

>>54090318
>Asshole.
I'm not even the anti-SJW autist. I responded to you being blatantly incorrect when I got a notification due to you linking a post of mine with one of the two pictures.

>>54081692

fuck them

houserule some prices and goes nuts

>>54090351
Allow me my bitterness for being a retard.

>>54090299
Doesn't seem like they really streamline. More like they make a token attempt and then fall on their old habits of piling things on each other.

>>54090722
So, You have access to the rulebooks then? You have proof?

Because if so, I'd LOVE to see.

>>54090530
You alone are responsible for getting in this situation by defending Starfinder in the first place; what the fuck made you think NuPaizo would actually show white men or, fuck, FAMILIES* in their art?

*Bugs and rats don't count

>>54091236
What the heck? How is the deity-respecting missionary who is trying to raise his child right not an example of a good family?

>>54092382

Because they are a stupid fucking meme poster if you must indulge them just remind them that all white men have to accept being fucked by BBC gay muslims communist

>>54092382
Same reason it isn't impressive that there's a white male Dwarf in Starfinder art.

Making your weird bug people the "normie" only highlights the behavior as alien.

Did they offer up any clarifications in the comment area? I know the devs posted a lot of stuff in the previous articles there

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Hey losers, check it out.

http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5ljxk?Class-Preview-The-Mechanic

>>54094916
Huh, alternate mechafamiliars.

Sounds promising.

>>54082015
>>54082027
So basically it sounds like
>Players can't min-max as good

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>>54094916

The exocortex idea is really cool but then again who can pass up the idea of having your robobro transform and rest on your back giving you access to extra arms or a jetpack

>>54082193
Because removing the equipment treadmill "doesn't feel like D&D".

Also, having the ship level as a character means the player can do whatever the fuck they want with it without potentially breaking the economic math either way. You can still RP doing whatever in order to upgrade the ship. Everyone getting a ship also means there's no fighting over who gets to be Ship Guy, and redundancy for retards who get their ship junked/stolen/whatever.

This is legit smart from Paizo, which is not a thing I thought I would ever say.

>>54094916
Seems to me this is like the new summoner: The Drone is a normal eidolon, while the exocortex is a synthesist, applying all the crazy drone abilities to yourself.

>>54095229

>"doesn't feel like D&D".

doesn't feel like 3.5 DnD more like.
5e DnD, the current one, don't have any equipment treadmill as core already.

>>54082015
3. They got lazy

>>54095553
But you can still buy a damn ship if you want one.

>>54088541
Thirteen. There are thirteen players. of Ops and Tactics.

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>>54094916
Can't wait to never play this class I really want to play as now.

t. forever GM

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>>54097861

>Not making NPCs you can use to help shore up the party's weaknesses or still being able to play indirectly.

All of my important NPCs will always be built as PCs.

>>54097861
What kind of 'Bot would you use?

>>54096991
The rules for that are really wishy washy and you can't upgrade it RAW... also not much you can do with them. 5e is really homebrew friendly at least.

>>54097861
I know that feel - am trying to convince one of my players of my 5e campaign to start up a Starfinder session as DM, but he prefers fantasy

>>54097942

DMPCs are a slippery slope

>>54091202
The proof is in the OP. They already use at least two different approaches to acquiring equipment/ship parts.

>>54099185
Logic and reason doesn't work on people bound and determined to hate things that you enjoy, anon.

>>54099167
>bounded accuracy
>friendly to homebrew
What the hell are you smoking?

>>54099551
What has bounded accuracy got to do with it?

>>54100525
It's shit in general.

>>54099551
What is bounded accuracy? I've never played 5e.

>>54101459
Accuracy and defences largely don't scale with level.
A level 1 character has decent chances of hitting a level 20 character and vice versa.

>>54101484
It seems odd that a goblin could hurt a dragon.

>>54101502
Also seems odd that a Human with a claymore can't hurt another human, who is just wearing cloth.

>>54101502
In 5e, it's HP and damage that scale, not attack and defense bonuses, so while that Goblin can hit the dragon, it's gonna do fuck-all for damage.

>>54101459
It's mostly to mean that high level characters can still be threatened by enough low level enemies. To Hit and AC is fairly flat (though it does scale to some extent), but HP and damage scales massively.

>>54101502
>>54101533
Also the dragon can one shot a horde of goblins, it would have to be pretty retarded to let them close. A goblin would need to hit hundreds of times to come close to killing a dragon, assuming it even hits (which is like 15% of the time).

>>54101874
I don't like it because enemy numbers become much more dangerous and not always in obvious ways.

In 3.5 you could throw 10-20 low level enemies and allow PCs to cut through them. In 5e unless they are really pathetic they have a good chance to fuck up some of PCs.

>>54101916
Yes, that is the direct reason why it works that way now

So lower level enemies aren't totally incapable of hurting higher level PCs and higher level enemies aren't totally immune to the efforts of lower level PCs

>>54102045
Which is stupid, and leads to the problem of "why hire heroes if a hundred peasants do the same thing"

>>54101521
That human wearing cloth has seen every sword trick you could possibly pull with a claymore, and then some you couldn't pull but do anyway. He can hit you anywhere from four to twelve times faster than you can hit him and he can probably stop the sword by punching it aside. He's not literally letting the sword bounce on him, that would be DR.

>>54099184
>but he prefers fantasy
Starfinder is fantasy, it's just fantasy in space.

>>54102130
>Which is stupid, and leads to the problem of "why hire heroes if a hundred peasants do the same thing"
Find 100 peasants willing to take on a job where 90% of them will die before it's over. Go ahead, try. I'll wait.

>>54102285
>90%
100 or so peasants chucking rocks at a frost giant will kill it with minimal casualties.

>>54102316
Yeah, no. Giants chuck boulders, remember?

>>54102367
Just have the peasants standing apart, it'll only hit one or two of them.

>>54102392
And it'll take them long enough to kill the giant that it'll still get most of them anyway. Assuming it doesn't just walk away, then come back with the rest of its clan and murder everybody.

>>54102130
>Which is stupid, and leads to the problem of "why hire heroes if a hundred peasants do the same thing"

Arn't you confusing the mechanics with the fluff. The mechanics say it's possible but a couple of hundred joe bob farmers with pitch forks arn't exactly a Paladin with a divine sword.

People need to keep the two things seperate when discussing these sorts of things.

>>54102468
>Arn't you confusing the mechanics with the fluff
You can't fluff away the mechanics. If the mechanics for Wail of the Banshee don't make it instant death and simply have it do relatively massive damage, you can't have it tear the souls from a man's body, no matter how hale or hearty he was the second before.

>>54102560

And how do you fluff away a thousand joe bob farmers pitchforking a dragon to death?

The mechanics are there to inform us how things work but not tell us how the world works froma fluff perspective which is why I took issue with you (or perhaps another anon) saying why hire a dude when you can have a bunch of peasent farmers do it?

>>54102651
>And how do you fluff away a thousand joe bob farmers pitchforking a dragon to death?
The point is that a level 20 Paladin is actually threatened by a thousand joes with pitchforks which is obviously retarded.

>>54095553
>>54082193
No. Fuck you. Some of us like having a use for all the treasure we're earning.

I'm okay with 5E, but all this "remove the economy" shit's ridiculous.

>>54102661

Okay, and how much magic and martial prowess is the 20th level Paladin bringing to bare? At best they are doing chip damage if his armor doesn't outright negate it and he could probably slaughter all of them wholesale. Then again, what reason would a thousand joe bobs have to try and pitchfork a literal demi-god outside of though experiments?

>>54102887
Because in his place may be not a paladin but some black knight that pillaged and burned countryside until people finally snapped.

In 3.5 you needed a hero or a large trained unit of soldiers with wizards and priests to fight high level threats. In 5e a band of mercs or even villagers could do it. And encounters involving multiple enemies fighting vs PCs become harder to do.

>>54102887
It's not relevant "why", the relevant bit is that they can, which is horseshit. Bounded accuracy is bad because it caps shit that you would expect to increase, like raw skill, and increases things you expect wouldn't increase, like the ability to survive falls from low earth orbit.

All those Starfinder games on roll20, and the rules aren't even out yet. What the fuck.

>>54102969
Really? why the fuck is anybody putting those up? they should at least read the damn rules before trying that sort of thing.

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Seeing as we have literal space druids in the form of Xenowardens I wonder if there will be some kind of Mystic connection or even an archetype that lets you wild shape into alien animals? Or in general what the more "druid" like magic will be like.

>>54103704
From what all we know, there's only going to be two archetypes in the core book - Psychic Adept, and Starfinder Forerunner.

The new archetype system DOES open up a lot of things, though. I could see it working with some effort. A little homebrew could whip up something pretty interesting.

>>54103704
With all of the 'Form' spells, you could get into some really wild territories with Monstrous Physique, Undead Anatomy, and the like.

>>54102959
But raw skill does increase in 5e, just not as quickly as in Pathfinder. As for the ability to survive a fall from low Earth orbit, that's been a thing for as far back as I can remember. As far back as Dragon Magazine #69, Gary Gygax told us that although AD&D had falling damage increase geometrically, it still capped at 20d6. After a certain point, after all, you're falling as fast as you possibly can (terminal velocity) due to the vagaries of things like wind resistance. Or in other words, there's no actual difference between falling 10,000 feet and falling 100,000 feet.

(in point of fact a person in free-fall typically reaches terminal velocity after about 1,500 feet, which would be 300d6 damage if the system was allowed to increase to that point. This would be lethal to just about any character - clearly, then, Gygax wanted characters to be theoretically capable of surviving a free-fall, as even with the lower hit point totals in AD&D, 20d6 was still theoretically survivable by high-level characters).

>>54103988
Gary also wanted characters capable of slaying dragons to bust half an army with a sword swing and shrug off cannonballs. The point is that if 5e wanted to make shit more sensible they could've cut down on HP but increased stuff like DR and AC and DCs, but instead they did the opposite, and now goblins remain a threat well into the mid levels, which is horseshit, you're playing low fantasy now.

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>>54104036
>underestimating goblins

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>>54104036
>slaying dragons
Speaking of dragons, I wonder how they'll fare in Starfinder. They must have gone through the same traumatic amnesia episode as the elves, but most of them have much stronger wills than the pansy elves, and are much, much more intelligent to boot.

>>54104036
>You're playing low fantasy now

Now you get it, 5e is built to function on a lower level of fantasy

It's not just the bounded accuracy, the increased rarity of magic items and reduction of power amongst high level spells and abilities compared to 3.5 all point towards 5e being designed to be a lower fantasy game than 3.5

>>54104129
I just hope they don't go the way of dragons in Shadowrun which why thematically appropriate is boring as shit.
If I want powerful jews, I go with gnomes.
I want dragons to be those asshole thieving bastards that rob and murder people and then hide out in the middle of nowhere.

>>54104162
I understand what you want and why, but I don't understand why you would label shadowrun dragons as "boring"

>>54104162
Explain to me why? Because the Shadowrun dragons actually make a solid amount of sense; the world isn't wild anymore, and we know for a fact that at least one planet (Castrovel) has a continent ruled by dragons, unless they were somehow ousted.

>>54104208
>>54104215

It's an overdone trope in fiction, logic withstanding.
Rich greedy vengeful assholes who are usually immune to players' backlash and just exist to piss off the group.

That's boring and unfun.

>>54082015
>That after the PCs go a long time without needing a Space ship and level up a lot, they're suddenly under equipped for level appropriate challenges

So more MMO/CRPG bullshit being imprinted on tabletop. Because it totally impossible for a group to go off on some side stories to upgrade the ship or retreat from battle when they're outmatched, no sir. The leveling mechanics would kick in to deny them experience and drops for killing lower level enemies, and they can't retreat because of the monster AI pathing.

Fucking idiot Paizo writer.

>>54104258
>That's boring and unfun
Sounds like you had a bad GM, because you can craft entire completely interesting campaigns around those types of characters.

>>54104258
So your issue with Shadowrun isn't Dragon CEOs, it's Dragon CEOs that are utterly untouchable by even the most well-equipped party? That's fair, and I doubt it's something that will happen in Starfinder.

>>54104146
And yet the character types scream quite the opposite if you bother lookign at them: eldritch knight, spellsword, wizard, etc.

>>54104258
I could make the same argument for greedy assholes who smash and grab and never put deeper thought into anything, like what you're suggesting dragon's should be

>>54104146
I've always gotten it. That's why I detest it, because it's still poorly designed rubbish for playing low fantasy.

>>54104283
Well yeah

In my opinion, the one of the biggest problems with 5e is how the non-mechanical bits of the book say one thing, and then the mechanics say almost the exact opposite

But in those situations, you should ignore the meaningless lies that don't affect the game, and focus on the mechanics which do

>>54104271
I'm sorry, but why, exactly, do you think it would be impossible for those stories not to be done with things as stated so far (which, incidentally, is largely non-mechanical hearsay and nothign more)?

Whjat it really does is put it on the GM to make those things interesting - or bypass them entirely, as he sees fit and as his players desire. Did it ever occur to you that it could be worked in both directions? that the simplification might be something other players and groups LIKE? It's ALWAYS easier to complicate a thing as opposed to simlify it later, as 3.PF-> 5e/SF is an incredibly telling example of.

But you'd rather complain about something that is only really a problem to you because you want shit to be messy and complicated right from the start.

>>54104271
I bet you'd be screaming about over-complicated bullshit if they actually did make it a necessity to scavenge and buy upgrades constantly.

>>54104300
They do put deeper thought, their deeper thought is "I'm a CR 20 threat which is country-ending level, nothing short of balors is going to hurt me and I haven't really made any balors mad so who cares"

>>54104379
>it's always easier to complicate a thing as opposed to simplify it later
You what? Give me a single example. Simplifying is always easier because it's just cutting shit out. If I wanted to "simplify" loot and WBL I would give you X amount of gold on level up and say "okay, swap out your equipment now", but you can't create loot tables just like that.

>>54104416
You see how that can be boring right?

It effectively translates to "Rawr, me big, me smash small things"

>>54104449
Someone clearly hasn't written commercial software.

>>54104495
That's how people in real life operate, just not as explicitly - mainly because you can't be as big. But look at countries - not /pol/ or anything, but big countries do whatever the fuck they want largely because who's going to stop them?

>>54104511
That's because commercial software is an organizational mess. The fact of the matter is that cutting things you don't want OUT is always easier than trying to figure out a system you want IN.

>>54104449
....I gave you one fucking amazing example.

But here's another. Fix Rolemaster so that you don't have to deal with hundreds of spells at a time if you want to play any caster type at all. How about fixing Traveler's system so that you're not sittign for half an hour waiting on the Gmn to finish rollign what happens about your own ship.

Best of all - simplify Rifts.

Cutting shit out is great - if you don't mind all the scaling back of the threats the GM has to work with at the same time when you gut your system. That's the problem with SYSTEMS, is that they're built with two sets of people workign in them, players and GMs. simplifying is great, as long as you aren't the GM who has to cope with the huge cans of worms cutting shit out of a system leaves you with. Adding things into a system is always better because you can take it or leave it as it comes. When you have an already bloated system, you don't need to make it more complicated - GM's can do that all on their own, especially if you tell them how.

>>54104514
Other big countries usually

So you have to be delicate in case you risk a confrontation with another dragon, and if you follow that thought process, it's a very small jump to go from that, to Shadowrun dragons

>>54104557
>....I gave you one fucking amazing example.
You didn't. Adding shit to 5e is a nightmare, especially accounting for balance. Cutting bullshit out of PF is easy as fuck, there's entire subsystems dedicated to it in fact.

>adding things into a system
You're talking GURPS, where you have a single, very simple core system, and simply add or subtract modules to it arbitrarily. That is NOT what Starfinder is, nor what 5e is - Starfinder and 5e have a complete and closed system; adding things in is not at all trivial, like it is for GURPS or other module-based systems. For D&D, the easiest modules to change are the ones already in the fucking game - you don't like dealing with loot tables? Just give WBL in gold. You don't like dealing with equipment treadmills? Use ABP (which is easily arrived at via WBL anyway). You don't like dealing with feat taxes or certain requirements? Handwave them. You don't like this or that specific part of a spell or manuever? Change it. Don't want to deal with Greater Teleport? Ban it. But literally adding spells or manuevers or feats or classes that don't exist? That's harder.

>>54104640
.......and yet, that's what you are advocating is making the system more bloated and harder to learn. Why not leave it simple and give the GM's the choice of making it harder or not rather than forcing them to start hard and pare down? GMs have it tough already, why torture them?

Oh, that's because you actually hate the system already and aren't actually here to play, you're just here to hate people having fun you don't like, aren't you.

>>54104036
>wanted to make shit more sensible

That's...not really the reason for bounded accuracy. The point wasn't necessarily to make things more "down to Earth", although that was a welcome side-effect.

No, instead the point was to make the likely modifier a character has to his or her checks a mathematically predictable number, so as to make encounter design easier.

Like, for example, thanks to bounded accuracy, Wizards of the Coast can be pretty certain than 90% thieves have a 20 Dexterity by 10th level (+4 proficiency), and so their Dexterity-based proficient skills have modifiers of either +9 or +13 (with expertise), and so know that they can put in skill checks with a DC of between 19 and 23 and expect rogues to be able to pass them 50% of the time.

In Pathfinder the same 10th level Rogue's skills could be wildly all over the place, making encounter design tricky as Hell because things challenging for one character will be trivially easy for another despite both being 10th level Rogues.

More in my next post.

>>54104719
Actual solution

Make the game complex, include in the core rules guides on how to make it simpler

Which is really what they should be doing for Starfinder ships

>>54104719
Because making the system 'more bloated and harder to learn' allows someone who wants complicated shit to have it, while letting someone who doesn't want it ignore it. Simply put "you can ignore this" in a sidebar if you're so triggered by reading a few extra pages.

>GMs have it tough already
Learning the system isn't the tough part; planning for sessions and dealing with shit that comes out of left field from players circumventing half your plot is.

>>54104763
>welcome side effect
I'm not fucking sure about that. Rocket Tag getting fucked is good, but I don't play Dungeons and Dragons to get down to earth.

>>54104545
This is only worse in commercial software because customers keep coming back with shitty features. But this happens with all software. Have you never written a thesis? Or tried to write a book? Adding stuff is much much easier to remove stuff AND HAVE IT REMAIN COHERENT. If you remove something, you better make damn sure nothing else is referencing that, or relies on it. Adding something is easy.

>>54104797
>Adding stuff is much much easier THAN* to remove stuff AND HAVE IT REMAIN COHERENT.

Good example there. I removed a letter and it made the sentence not make sense.

>>54104797
>all software
>thesis
>software
Also, theses work this way - you design the entire fucking thesis from the start, and theses can never be modular or have 'optional bits'. Adding something to a thesis isn't easy because you need to reference it in other places to make it not stand out like a sore fucking thumb. If you're adding or subtracting shit from your thesis after the planning stage you're fucked.

>>54104825
>a letter
>actually a word
Are you some sort of super ESL or simply drunken?

>>54104763
>>54104036
This is the next post to which I previously alluded.

>and now goblins remain a threat well into the mid levels

First, did you seriously never give goblins class levels in your games? Or have you never heard of Tucker's Kobolds? Even low-level monsters, played intelligently, can be a threat to high-level adventurers

(This was somewhat less true in 3.PF than other editions, but I think that the intent of 5e was specifically to return to a point where Tucker's Kobolds were possible)

Second, let's keep things consistent: that same 10th level rogue can in 5e can be reasonably expected to have a +9 to attack and, say, 63 hit points (assuming a 12 CON and 5 hp per level after 1st), and wielding a rapier in melee he deals an average of 10 piercing damage, plus he has a sneak attack that does an average of 21 damage. Wearing studded leather armor, the thief has an AC of 17 (12+Dex)

So he hits an AC 19 50% of the time. The basic goblin has an AC of 15, however, which the thief can hit 70% of the time. His average of 10 damage per rapier attack is enough to kill the goblin outright, which has 7 hit points.

The goblin is armed with a scimitar with which it gets +4 to hit with an average of 5 damage, so it can hit an AC of 17 40% of the time.

A goblin is not a threat to a 10th-level rogue in any meaningful sense. In point of fact, I'm pretty sure that the rogue would have to be literally surrounded on all sides by goblins AND have none of his allies adjacent to any of the goblins in order to actually be threatened by them, as if even one ally is adjacent to a goblin then the rogue can off-hand punch a goblin, have that off-hand be a sneak attack, and kill the goblin, killing 2 per turn.

>>54104943
>played intelligently
A swarm of 6-8 Goblin Fighter 1 is a viable threat to a Fighter 8 in straight combat. That shouldn't be the case. They should NEED to be intelligent.

>a goblin is not a threat to a 10th level rogue in any meaningful sense
[A] Goblin. What about four with flanking bonuses? He won't die, but he'll actually be relatively hurt - and why is a level 10 being hurt by level 1s?

>tucker's kobolds
Here's the thing about powercurves - the entire point is that you should ALWAYS be playing monsters intelligently. If a frost giant group is known for its unusually cunning raids and having a fortification expert among its rank, then it shouldn't play like usual to begin with - and the usual frost giants shouldn't be screaming charging idiots. The only things that get a free card for charging blindly like dumbasses are oozes and mindless undead.

>>54104783
You mean like players taking detours and sidelining your game because they suddenly decide to go full space pirate to upgrade their ship mid campaign?

Gee, I wonder why that might happen.

Sure would be easier if they didn't have to concern themselves with that unless they and the GM wanted to.

>>54105089
>Sure would be easier if they didn't have to concern themselves with that unless they and the GM wanted to.
WHICH IS WHY YOU INCLUDE THE SYSTEM IN THE GAME YOU RETARD
THE GM DOESN'T NEED TO LET YOU DO IT IF HE DOESN'T WANT TO, BUT HE CAN'T EASILY INCLUDE A SYSTEM THAT DOESN'T FUCKING EXIST (ERGO HE NEEDS TO BREW THE ENTIRE THING FROM SCRATCH) BECAUSE HE AND HIS PLAYERS WANT TO GO PIRATING
Why the fuck are you so DENSE? Having options is always better than not having options because you can refuse options that exist, you can't choose options that don't.

>>54105080
But if it's a swarm of goblins, it should be a threat

Lots of dudes should be scary and hard to fight, even if they're little dudes

>>54104783
>>54105089
BTFO.

>>54105161
>But if it's a swarm of goblins, it should be a threat
But it shouldn't be, because the rogue isn't level 5, he's level 10. A level 5 rogue has a really good chance of being flat-out levelled by three goblins, which is still stupid. It's low fantasy. I don't play D&D for low fantasy; it doesn't give a good feeling of low fantasy with dragons everywhere.

>>54105168
Samefag much? Or just two retards who can't fathom telling their players 'no'?

>>54105160
Excuse me...but how, exactly, do you know the system doesn't exist in game to let them do that?

It's much easier to include the simpified system Y as the base system, and tack on a section, "here's how to do X if you want to". Because then, you really don't have to learn to do X unless you want to, since Y takes care of it all for them instead.

Options are easier to tack on that trying to tear out critical systems that you made integral to the core game. If you haven't figured this out by now, you really are just a fucking troll who hates fun unless it's on your exacting terms.

>>54105230
Because having system Y implies having system X, in the way loot tables implies WBL which implies ABP. But making WBL and loot tables from ABP? Far more difficult.

>>54105186
Ok, so you want to be a fantasy superhero instead of a dungeon crawler, I can get behind that, I sometimes want to sweep through loads of little opponents like a dynasty warriors character to

Fr that sort of thing, I like games like 4e and Feng Shui, games that have rules explicitly for mooks for you and your party to carve through like a hot knife through butter, I play 5e when I want to go on a proper dungeon crawl, where turning a corner and seeing 15 goblins turn to face you is a scary, scary thing to see

>>54105196
Why say "no" when you can say "yes, but"? It's not difficult anon. If the automatic progression isn't you cup of tea, you make them actually seek out and scavenge and hunt down parts. It's not even that hard, you're not changing the mechanics, you're changing the way the characters do things to make their characters grow. Is it really so hard for you to grasp that fluffing out - i.e. being a GM and making your players work for shit in character - the experience of upgrading your ship doesn't have to be a mechanical nightmare, which is what the other anon is suggesting is a better way of playing a game? It becomes a literal roleplaying choice that the players and GMs can make together - do you want to upgrade your ship automatically, or play the upgrade process out for the fun and pleasure of doing so?

No mechanic change, merely roleplaying changes. I have never seen someone so desperate for mechanical additions to a game which are not only unnecessary, but over-complicating a game that already has so much bloat they had to redesign it from scratch to fix most of it.

Hell, you can even do the exact same thing with feats, class abilities and the like. Most people choose not to, but the choice is there. That's all this is - simple mechanics that allow for a roleplaying choice to be made to effect change.

Yeah, it's playing pretend, but that's the whole point of the game, isn't it? Why force mechanics into a place where they're not needed when roleplaying can serve the same exact purpose without additional rulesets?

>>54105310
>fantasy superhero
Yeah, like how it was in AD&D, D&D 3.5e, and even D&D 4e. D&D 5e is not my cup of tea because it 1. isn't D&D and 2. is poorly designed even for being low fantasy. How can I believe that turning a corner and seeing 15 skeletons is scary when I just finish fighting drakes?

>>54105080
>That shouldn't be the case.

Why not? What cosmic law prevents this? I accept that D&D is basically superhero roleplaying set in a fantasy world, but even superheroes can be overwhelmed by enough weaker opponents. Even Batman can't take 8 (trained) guys at once in a straight-up fight without the benefit of his gadgets without a very good chance of getting notably injured in the process. Hence why Batman works from the shadows, strikes from ambush, etc.

The players should playing intelligently, too. It's not my fault that 3.PF has bred the idea that "run" shouldn't be considered an intelligent move (or, if you prefer, "tactically withdraw so that the 8 goblins can't use their numbers to the best advantage. Fucking Thermopylae that shit, yo).

>>54105186
If it makes you feel any better, in Rise of Tiamat I played an 8th level rogue who, due to circumstances beyond her control, ended up essentially solo'ing a CR 13 Adult white dragon (it had not been Plan A, it just worked out that no one was around to help her. And by "essentially solo" I mean she did all but 3 of the damage to it).

Later in the same campaign when she was level 14, she ran into its mate, who was an Ancient white and CR 20...and essentially solo'd her, too, though it was intended to be a noble sacrifice.

There are benefits to this "low fantasy" thing, is what I'm saying - you get to have fuckawesome fights where all logic says you should die, but through tactics, luck, skill, luck, and A LOT OF LUCK, end up coming out on top anyway.

The trade-off is that you can't have this kind of system without also making low-level goblins a threat. But I'm, personally, fine with that, as I never once felt like I was in a "low fantasy" setting. I felt like I was a fucking dragonslayer.

>>54105366
...but that's MY position you retard, I'm saying that you should have the option to be complicated if you feel like it, and be able to trim it if you want because trimming is easier. If you don't want to deal with bullshit - no problem, don't, just ignore it and move on with the autolevel system.

>>54105406
>trimming rules systems that are integral to a game is easier than making shit up whole cloth
Wow, you are fucking autistic idiot with zero imagination.

>>54105310
For me E6 for 3.5 works much better than 5E for low-mid fantasy games. There is much more options and I can craft an insane amount of opponents, challenges and allies from them.

>>54105487
>have a system that's trimmable
>it's already been playtested and balanced, lots of fluff, lots of little 'spaceship parts' balanced and statted, maybe even some themeing bonuses you didn't think of; doesn't stop you from adding your own shit if it doesn't have what you want
>have a system that's expandable
>doesn't stop you from adding your own shit if it doesn't have what you want, but balance is janked
hmmm......

>>54105394
Because Batman isn't a superhero. Batman is a genius and pinnacle of humanity but he is still human, his point is that he's doing shit from the shadows because in the end he's only a human. How many thugs can Superman take on though? Or Samson? Or Medaka Kurokami? Or Susano'o, or Diomedes, or Lv Bu Fengxian? These people weren't human, not even pinnacles of humanity - they were superhuman, and significantly so.
>playing intelligently

>bred the idea
This is really just a problem of having a lot of monsters that are strong also be insanely fast, so running just lets them hit you for free. At the same time there ARE slow-ass monsters that are dangerous as fuck. Hordes of weaklings, on the other hand, don't necessitate running - Cloudkill does the trick just fine. Being actually outnumbered by more or less equals is when tactics comes into play, but 5e simply forces this by making almost everyone a somewhat-equal - if three flanking Skeletons can actually fuck up a level 10 somewhat, then everything becomes a threat to be managed - there's no such thing as having simply moved past that, which is what D&D was about. Bandits are not a threat to dragonslayers - drake riders are

>essentially solo'd her
But that ISN'T awesome. That's the point; yes, it sounds awesome at first glance, but then you realize - wait, CR 20 doesn't mean what it did in 3.5e. CR 20 in 3.5e was nation-ending; if the nearby nations didn't have some plucky heroes in them, CR 20 could end MULTIPLE nations. CR 20 in 5e is a credible threat to a castle keep - yeah, a big deal, but not what it used to be. In 5e, a level 14 solo'ing a CR 20 is like a level 14 solo'ing a CR 16 in 3.5e, because that's more or less the powergap we're talking about. It's not as big of a deal to kill a CR 20 because a CR 20 is no longer continental in stature, a CR 30 is no longer a lesser god - or rather, it's a lesser god alright - just one that's significantly less threatening than lesser gods were in 3.5e or PF.

>>54105609
What you think "D&D is about" is personal, not universal

>>54105715
Because the tones and general levels of AD&D, 3e, 3.5e, and 4e are not good indicators right?

>>54105609
Remembering 3.5 and CR 6 demon could depopulate a small town. A level 6 fighter could breach castle gates with bare hands. And so on.

>>54105735
Not when the playtest, both local and general, gave responses in favour of this sort of thing, explicitly to keep lower level monsters relevant to higher levels

>>54105609
You represent such extremely powerful characters in fiction with extremely powerful characters in D&D. No number of basic goblins are a threat to a 20th level fighter, even in 5e. A 20th level 5e fighter can be reasonably presumed to have a +11 to his attack (hits a goblin on a 4 or better, or 80% of the time) and an AC of 21 (full plate + shield; goblin only hits him on a 17 or better, or 20% of the time), and the fighter is making four attacks per turn each for 10 damage, outright killing any goblin he strikes. Plus he most likely has 164 hit points (assuming 6 per HD after 1st plus +2/level from a 14 CON).

If the goblins are only hitting him 20% of the time for 5 damage, that means that the fighter actually has to be attacked around 165 times to actually be brought down (it takes about 33 hits to down him, but only 1 in 5 attacks actually hit, so 33x5 = 165). To reliably do this you'd seriously need, like, 50 goblins, or more.

I think your problem is that you expect to be Superman at level 10.

>if three flanking Skeletons

That's the second time you've brought this up...you know that "flanking" isn't a thing in basic 5e, right? It's an optional rule in the DMG, but by default the only time "flanking" matters is if you're a rogue.

More specifically, a skeleton has an AC of only 13, and a 5e fighter by level 10 makes 2 attacks per action at what can be reasonably presumed to be a +9 bonus, while still having an AC of 21 without magic, which the skellies only hit on a 17 still (and they deal only 5 damage).

Three skeletons should last just two rounds against the fighter and, assuming they win initiative, make a total of 4 attacks (all 3 on the first round, just 1 on the second, assuming the fighter doesn't use Action Surge to kill them all outright on the first round), of which statistically speaking none are likely to hit.

>>54105871
Oh, wait, I forgot the skeletons have 13 hit points. So the fighter will need to put a little more effort to kill the skeletons, two hits apiece, for a total of 6 attacks, each of which will most likely hit. During this time the skeletons make a total of 6 attacks, only 1-2 of which are likely to hit, for just 5-10 damage total. The 10th level fighter is doing fine.

>>54105768
Irrelevant. What people wanted from 5e was not what D&D meant before that - that is why many people refuse to move from 3.5e spinoffs, or simply move to different sytems entirely. 5e doesn't keep lower level monsters relevant; it keeps you from ever escaping the feeling of being a janitor, cleaning up after the little things, the pretend dragons and pretend balors, while 3.5e and 4e are being the real heroes, solving the real problems - the ones you can't solve.

>>54105871
>165 times to actually be brought down
>50 goblins
Let's assume it's 500 goblins. What you are telling me is that after a three year campaign to get to level 20, I am merely worth the personal retinue of a minor goblin warlord - for 500 people is nothing, even the shittiest gallic chiefs could muster hundreds of fighting men. No thank you; I'll go play GURPS for that particular feel, as GURPS does it far better for not using the d20 system.

>flanking isn't a thing in basic 5e right
Another thing. Why are so many things not a thing in basic 5e? Sleep, flanking, whatever they're just not there. Is it really that intimidating to facebook retards to have a few extra conditions?

>extremely powerful characters in D&D
Superman could kill all five hundred goblins in those six seconds. Susano'o doesn't even need six seconds, he needs a standard attack action. Samson killed twice as many men (or twenty times as many as your estimate) with an improvised weapon. 5e is weakened to the point you literally cannot represent the people of legend anymore.

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>>54105609
>Because Batman isn't a superhero.

I gots me a Wikipedia entry says different.

>but he is still human

I also gots me some logical deduction says different, but let's display it in a funny way. Pic.

>>54106098
Batman is a retard who won't just shoot the Joker once and for all.

>>54106015
To illustrate what this Anon talks about - in 3.5 I threw 30 bandits against a five man 6th level party. Just to spice up things and allow players to feel how powerful they are. And they more or less steamrolled them. There were some wounds and one pretty nasty critical hit but the fact that the party would win was never in question.

>>54106015
Shit, in 3.PF, 500 goblins would still be a problem for a 20th level character. Give those 500 goblins shortbows to attack at range. Each makes one attack per turn. 1 in 20 attacks (or 25 attacks per round) are statistically going to be natural 20s and so automatically hit regardless of your phenomenal AC, and deal x3 damage (since they are crits on a shortbow), or 9 damage, meaning that after just one round you're taking 225 damage. A 20th level 5e fighter might generously have a 20 Constitution, and so most likely has 224 hit points. Meaning he's dead in 1 round.

Theoretically you might have something that grants DR, I guess, but a 20th level fighter is usually better off focusing on dealing damage rather than tanking it so it seems unlikely to me.

>Sleep

What? Sleep is in 5e.

>Superman, Susano'o, Samson

But do they know the reason kids love cinnamon toast crunch?

>>54106183
>Shit, in 3.PF, 500 goblins would still be a problem for a 20th level character.
Not really. Temporary DR isn't that all hard to get by, at which point they would be incapable of hurting you.

>>54106183
>and deal x3 damage (since they are crits on a shortbow
They need to confirm their crits, anon, which would take them another nat 20.
Which means a 1 in 400 chance to crit.

>>54106212
Okay, so they need to roll to confirm the critical, but they still automatically hit, so that's 3 damage per goblin, or 75 damage total. So the fighter is dead in 3 rounds rather than 1, since he can only kill, what, 8 goblins per round, assuming Great Cleave?

>>54106183
>Shit, in 3.PF, 500 goblins would still be a problem for a 20th level character. Give those 500 goblins shortbows to attack at range. Each makes one attack per turn
Wall of Wind -> Widened Fireball or Quickened Widened Black Tentacles, Cloudkill.

>>54106232
A level 20 fighter (your own fucking example) has DR 5/- as a class feature, meaning 0 damage per goblin.

>>54106261
Actually what am I even doing
Wail of the Banshee.

>>54106261
>not widened greater black tentacles
Do you even lewd, fampai.

>>54106183
A 20th level fighter with no magic items (???) can still kill an arbitrary number of Goblins with shortbows. WITH magic items he can kill them in like two turns.

>>54106264
tbf WotB is hot rubbish in Pathfinder, it's not even instant death anymore (like Finger of Death what the FUCK Paizo)

>>54106262
So it's been awhile since I played Pathfinder, so sue me. I feel that observing that an 18th level fighter can't laugh off 500 goblins does not significantly affect my point.

Or if we want to return to my original example character, a 20th level rogue is hardly a country-level threat, either.

>>54106261
Yeah, and there's stuff that a 20th level 5e character can do about 500 goblins, too. He just can't deal with them in a straight-up fight, and 5e takes the position that you shouldn't need to be able to solo an entire army on an open empty field just to feel like a badass.

Christ, 3.PF really is the worse edition, not for its rules, but for the mentality that those rules created.

>>54085507
same reason male-to-female trasngender want to be "xir" instead of "her"

can't be a snowflake if everyone treats you normally

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>>54107820
As a MtF trans girl: Paizo is full of idiots, and nobody that actually cares about the situation wants to go through the process, or bring attention to the fact that it's a thing. They just want to be female, snap, it's done, move on with their lives.

The only people that aren't doing that are attention whores that may well be using the titles as a way to garner attention, and little else. I get the point of having advocates for this sort of thing; they're necessary for getting legislation changed so we can actually get our transitions done. however, the people that wear these things as badges, or worse, as titles? They bring down the credibility of everybody else that deals with this shit, and a number of paizo's devs are the worst offenders I've seen of this sort of shenaniganry.

Apparently, Shirren have three sexes.
>Shirren have three sexes: male, female, and host. During reproduction, female and male shirrens provide the initial eggs and sperm, and hosts incubate the fertilized eggs while also adding their own genetic material and immunities. In some shirren societies, a single host queen incubates for many partners and is considered the true parent, while in others, three-party marriages are common. Shirren young spend their first 2 years in a tiny, wormlike larval form, and they are often carried around in protective containers to let them safely observe the world.
The baby containers are adorable as heck tho.
>>54107880
As another MtF trans girl, entirely agreed.

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>>54082755
You are the kind of idiot that kills games.

>>54108117
We actually know there's single person fighters. We also know that there's specifically going to be carrier ships. That alone means there's the possibility of more than one ship going around.

I imagine that it's totally possible for players to get away with being ace fighter pilots that get into their own jet and move around the battlefield.

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>>54104413
Beings that I run a regular kitbashed RIFTS game, in Phase World no less, you're kind of dead wrong.

>>54104129
I WANT TO RAM A SHIP INTO A FUCKING DRAGON

>>54108909
Forget piloting an X-Wing or Colonial Viper. Ride a power armour wearing dragon in space

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Anybody able to dump some good Starfinder appropriate art? My sci-fi stocks are really scarce.

>>54109424
I WANT TO RAM A DRAGON WEARING POWER ARMOR INTO A SHIP

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>>54109502
Part of me wants to go with Shirren as the new Humans. Write off the 'Umies of the setting as the equivalent of some Precursor race's pet hamsters that are starting to get out of their terrarium.

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>>54109502

>>54108147
It'll be pretty fun looting old Star Fox games for plot hooks and side quests.

>>54105080
>A swarm of 6-8 Goblin Fighter 1 is a viable threat to a Fighter 8 in straight combat.
No they aren't. Fighter 8 kills four of them in the first round with an action surge (minimum damage is 6, which is the HP they have as 1st level Fighters), then takes one or two rounds to finish the rest of them off. Even if they miss a few attacks, they still have the AC and HP to weather a few hits before cutting the numbers down. This isn't even taking into account archetype, feats (with 3 ASI's, they can have a 20 attack stat and still have a feat), and so on.

Unless the goblins are the very rare kind that are well equipped (and thus have a solid AC) and using teamwork, they get murdered pretty easily. And if they are that type of goblin, they should be a threat, because that's how that works.

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With the new mechanic preview, how do you guys think I could refluff the robot companion into a cyberdog? Some things like the drone armor suit ability might be kind of awkward.

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>>54111987

A lot of that will depend on what sort of options they give our robobros but i imagine there has to be something that lets it grapple so you could just refluff that as it being a sort of bite the grapple people with while it shoots with it's pop up laser pistol that comes out of it's back or it's head.

That said, having your cyberdogo change shape into a backpack has the really cool image in my head

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>>54112311
I just keep thinking of something like this.

>>54112379

>Be a halfling pretending to be a school child
>Have my Robo pupper on my back
>"Hey kid, get lost? Come with us and we'll take good care of you.."
>Draw pistols as robopupper leaps off my back and transforms before landing

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>>54111987
>>54112311
>>54112379
>>54112425

>Not wanting your robopupper to transform into a motorcycle

It's like you guys don't know what cool is.

>>54112585
Okay, I need this

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>>54113152

>>54113478
I'm thinking cyborg doggos, not robot doggos.

>>54110631
Is there much of a plot outside of Dinosaur Planet and Assault to steal?

Why do all the melee weapons in Starfinder seem to be so archaic? I don't think we've even had official confirmation of lightsabers. No chainswords in sight. Just plan old metal swords and stuff.

>>54114181
straight up the iconic fighter's melee weapon is a beam axe, and the iconic operative has a vibroknife. Also the solarions get to create weapons out of starstuff, meaning literal lightsabers

>>54114233
SolariAns, cunt.
This typo is as bad as theif or rouge.

>>54105285
>making tables from a system that's automatic instead of refluffing the ABP system to be loot and tools
why are you makign things more difficult than they have to be instead of simply using the system and telling the players that it is objects instead of simple bonuses? You don't need the tables of wealth by level or loot tables if you simply refluff ABP as objects and equipment.

This is what is meant by 'unnecessary complication of a system' that >>54105406
is desperately trying to shove into place when it's not only unnecessary but actually detrimental to the game to do.

>>54114868
Because loot table and WBL means that you don't necessarily get those objects. You might not have a belt of str+2 when you hit level 4; you might've gotten a longsword+1 and plate+1 instead. The entire point of WBL is to let your players choose what they want instead of what ABP tells they they now have (actually it's the opposite but whatever).

>>54107714
>he just can't deal with them in a straight up fight
But Samson and Superman could. At level 20 if you're not Samson and Superman, but instead just Batman who can survive falling from geostationary orbit, then why am I playing D&D? I'll go play a game that actually works with low fantasy. Fuck's sake I'm telling you that 500 is TOO LOW A NUMBER.

>5e takes the position that you shouldn't need to be able to solo an entire army on an open empty field just to feel like a badass.
Contrary to every fucking edition that came before, I know. Oh but it does say that a commoner should STILL be able to stab you over and over and over and you shouldn't hurt over it because of your absolutely fucking titanic HP pool.

>for the mentality
The "mentality" of the steamrolling hero is prehistoric in origin you imbecile, and is present in AD&D, 3e, 3.5e, and 4e. ONLY 5e disregards it; fuck off to /5eg/ if you like poorly designed low fantasy so much.

>>54114904
That makes a little more sense, thank you.

>tfw thought Solarion or Envoy were going to be your favorite class
>it ends up being the fucking Mechanic

Who woulda thunk it?

>>54115094
It's called SolariAn, fucko.

>tfw excited for Starfinder except you fucking hate Pathfinder's mechanics so you're basically just going to pirate the book for the lore and the pretty pictures and then port those ideas into a PbtA hack

>>54115108
>unironically depending on Paizo for lore
???

>>54115133

Hey now, Eox is genuinely kinda neat, and the sci-fantasy thing is underutilized.

>>54115108
>hating d20 mechanics
>liking PbtA mechanics
You may as well just play FUDGE. At least with FUDGE you have some measure of actual mechanics.

>>54115225

It's called FATE now, grandpa, and I was a diehard fanboy for a couple of years before I found PbtA.

>>54115234
That only makes it more disgusting.

http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/1150.html

with all this arguing over starships...

NEW THREAD
>>54116052