/CofD/ & /wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>52942387
I will only say I hate V20 art and Black-n-White is better than full colored art

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>>52942387
Oh that one's easy. This one of the Order of Reason's Skyriggers trying to sail to God and instead encountering a patron of the Nephandi and fighting it with FUCKING CANNONS.

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Anybody going to WoD Berlin?
Hook a brother up

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>>52942449

>cardposter

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>>52942387
This.

>No link to hunter endowment post in OP
O-oh. Okay then

Question. How would /CofD/ run a beast game? Genuinely curious with out wanting a snarky "i wouldn't" answer

>>52942534
By rewriting lots of it. The short version is that the Primordial Nightmare is alive and evil, it devours hapless souls to become Beasts for its own inscrutable purposes, and Heroes are charismatic psychopaths who naturally enthrall ordinary humans into being their mobs (Heroes are also created by the Nightmare).

>>52942534
Heroes as PCs
Beasts as BBEGs

>>52942534
Make sure the players are interested in playing a game where they are actually monsters instead of super special misunderstood dindu otherkin. Keep the obsessive aspect of Heroes but not have them be wholesale psycho narcissists and try to treat them as decent hero antagonists.

And once I have that ready I would not play it because shit mechanics.

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>>52942387

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>What's your favorite piece of artwork from one of the WoD splats?

Posting the classic

>>52942606
I do like this one

It's such a shame that 95% of the stuff concerning Blood Bathers is about being/fighting a serial killer.

I mean, I get that it's the point of them, but it still feels like a bit of a missed opportunity to have another look at that whole "what will you do for immortality" concept. They're kind of like vampires, except way worse, and you're still a human. Not the greatest or most original concept around, but there's some neat stuff about creating your own bathing ritual, and the question of how to cling to your humanity while still living off the essence of others.

The problem is that the book nearly uniformly writes them as over the top serial killers, at which point the whole ritual becomes sort of secondary unless it's super elaborate. The killing becomes the defining characteristic at that point. As antagonists they'd just a slightly odd version of a serial killer, as opposed to their own thing.
I guess the authors kind of ended up expressing what they wanted to do, Blood Bathers just don't end up feeling very interesting.

Or maybe I'm just missing something. I don't know a lot about nWoD and just started reading Immortals on a whim.

Also some of the rules for the ritual are written weirdly, to the point where I'm not sure what they're supposed to mean.

>>52942589
That's basically just playing Hunter: the Vigil instead.

>>52942657
I would say it's different. Different enough to at least warrant giving Heroes their own book that comes with ways to run a Hero campaign, but not enough to be its own splat.

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>>52942657
Stop denying me my cathartic self-destruction ritual shitlord

>>52942563
My favorite part is that there is no where for her to put her feet when using that contraption.

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>>52942478
cardposts
cardlove
cardlife

>>52942791
I think you use those rings on it to tie one to each of your shoes.

>>52942373
They seem...okay, for the most part. I'm not too hyped up yet because they're still at an extremely early stage.

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>>52942387
Here is a piece of artwork I am quite fond of from an old VtM book called Caine's Chosen: The Black Hand

http://www.strawpoll.me/12812374

>>52943279
>mage tied with werewolf for best husband
>changeling closing in at third

fuck that

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>>52943279
>>52943319
>Hunter having literally any votes in the 'supernatural husbando' race

>>52943510
It doesn't say supernatural husbando. It says husbando. And you just pin pointed why they're best, who the fuck wants a husbando that drinks blood or goes on bi weekly spirit murdering hunts?

>>52943319
Werewolves and mages make better husbandos. This is the consensus of the sleepers

>>52942478
Shut the fuck up. He's actually posting about a WoD game instead of just mageposting.

And I'm saying that as a dyed in the wool ascensionfag.

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>>52943537
>Which supernatural being
>SUPERNATURAL

>>52943537
>>52943708
Also, who wants a husbando that goes on bi weekly psuedo-people murdering hunts???

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>>52942387
Sheikman for the win...

>>52942387
If you kick a vampire in the nuts does it still hurt?

>>52943776
Same as it always does when your leg gets ripped off with Potence/Vigor.

>>52943776
Picturing that in my head was pretty funny

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>>52942387
...But also Kaluta.

>>52943771
She could stand to lose a few pounds..

>>52943720
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrVLOvJFtzM

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>>52943874
It was the middle ages. If she could afford to eat that well, she could probably survive squeezing out an heir or five.

Don't hate.

>>52942518
Everything else I can understand, but why does he have the face of Charles Bronson? Why OP? Why?

>>52943214
thats looks pretty fuckin' cool.

>>52944119
>Loius the Pious
wasn't that the pope who held orgies?

>>52944229
Different Louis. This one was the king of Aquitaine and later Holy Roman Emperor.

>>52944119
I was being a jokester.

>>52944246
>Holy Roman Emperor.
A lot of people kind of refer to Byzantine empire as an empire in name only. France and Germany were always fighting each other.

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>>52942387

>>52944270
>A lot of people kind of refer to Byzantine empire as an empire in name only

Unrightly so I might add

>>52944270
...That wasn't the Byzantine Empire. Those were two different things.

Also, why does the byzantine empire refer to both Russia and Western Europe? The papal state and russian orthodoxy were both seperate institutions.

>>52944427
Huh? I'm not sure what are you asking about.

Constantinople fought Russian Orthodoxy for spiritual supremacy in Eastern Christianity. This of course happened ages after western and eastern Christianity split

>>52944319
this shit makes me sick.

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>>52944427
It doesn't refer to Western Europe. The Byzantine Empire and Holy Roman Empire were two different things.

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>>52944427

>>52944487
Oh, so during antiquity they were still united?
byzantine isn't so much a regional or national moniker so much as a title we assigned to the sphere of influence brought by Christianity and the remains of the Roman Empire.

>>52944524
Thats a map of the Roman empire. The Byzantine empire was its successor. The holy roman empire and the Byzantine empire are the same thing.

>>52944563

Is this the American education system at work?

>>52944563
>The holy roman empire and the Byzantine empire are the same thing.
wat

>>52944549
> byzantine isn't so much a regional or national moniker so much as a title we assigned to the sphere of influence brought by Christianity and the remains of the Roman Empire.

No, Byzantine refers to the Eastern Roman Empire, aka the Byzantine Empire. It was centered out of Constantinople, which was originally called Byzantium. Much of the Christian world was outside of its control, instead seeing the Pope in Rome as the leader of Christendom.

>>52944524
Those are all arab lands. Your referring to the Islamic Empire if those maps are from 1050.

>>52944587
Then what the hell do you call the Western Roman empire prior to charlemange? (i.e. prior to adopting christianity?)

>>52944563
No, they're different things. The Holy Roman Empire was established by the Pope and Charlemagne. It was mainly what is now France, Germany, and Italy. The Byzantine Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire in the east, mainly in what is now Greece and Turkey (then Anatolia).

>>52944602
The Western Roman Empire.

Im missing magefags shitting the place up..

See, this is what I'm talking about. We have two completely seperate narratives, one is secular and one is religious. You keep glorifying the crusades and denying the existence of Greece and Macedonia.

First come Greeks, then Romans, Then Byzantine. Byzantine fractures into western orthodoxy and the papal state.

We call antiquity the Dark Ages.

>>52944619
Rome split before it adopted Christianity.
All of Rome after that period was referred to as Byzantine. When the religious schism formed it was only then that people began refering to the remains of the western roman empire as the holy roman empire and the remains of the eastern Roman empire exclusively as Byzantine.

>>52944549
This is complicated. Rome and Constantinople started splinting apart after the Roman Empire split in two halfs(Western and Eastern). This process was aggravated by fall of the Western parts.

Split was a fact when Charlemagne crowned himself emperor with support of Western church. Of course Byzantine Emperor didn't really like it. Struggle between both emperors was reflected by struggle between Constantinople and Rome for supremacy and from there it went on.

>>52944563
Holy Roman Empire was (I'm greatly simplifying here) Germany

>>52944628
>>52944664
I swear to god its like your ripping 200 years out of the history books. How long did it take to establish a new chronology after Rome fell? How many people were still using the old Calendars?

There is this error right about when we started using anno domini instead of roman chronicles.

Wasn't there a period of book burning there as well?

>>52944664
>All of Rome after that period was referred to as Byzantine

Nigga what? Byzantine was a label applied to the empire *after it fucking fell*. They never called themselves anything other than "the Roman Empire" (Imperium Romanum, Basilea Rhomaion, whatever).

>>52944666
>Holy Roman Empire was (I'm greatly simplifying here) Germany

I can see why you might see it this way, but feifdoms within the empire would constantly war and vye with each other despite supposedly falling under the dominion of the Catholic Pope.

The pope simply supported whoever was courting his favor and played the noble houses against each other.

>>52944664
The name "Byzantine" doesn't come up till Victorian England.

>>52944666
>This is complicated. Rome and Constantinople started splinting apart after the Roman Empire split in two halfs(Western and Eastern). This process was aggravated by fall of the Western parts.

This is what I'm saying. People still called the empire prior to charlemaine Byzantine. Byzantine is more like an epitath, its like saying, "The bureo or the buerocracy"

>>52944664
No. The Holy Roman empire formed centuries after the formal disestablishment of the Western Roman Empire by Odoacer. The HRE dates to the seventh century. The WRE was disestablished in the fifth.

>>52944588
You. Fucking. Mong.

Read the key. That was the extent of Justinian and Bellisarius attempted reconquest shortly after the disestablishment of the WRE. The area shaded in pink indicates the size of the ERE/Byzantine Empire in 1050.

>>52944582
This is the American Educational system at work. He just didn't pay attention.

>>52944723
which is why it (technically) included france, parts of belgium, sweden and norway.

>>52944775
At different periods and different times, the HRE had varying levels of size. At a certain point, it also encompassed France. It was an unstable political union and, as such, it's borders were constantly changing.

>>52944723
Well I'm not saying it wasn't a mess

>>52944770
>This is the American Educational system at work. He just didn't pay attention.

No, i just disagree with you're interpretation. Other countries have no interest in an unbiased discussion of medieval history because they all had a stake in it.

America is neutral because we are mutts, we don't care to argue our breeding or pedigree. You are trying to back up claims of your ancestry with maps and charts instead of stories and legends.

>>52944602

Up until 285 AD, there was just the Roman Empire.

After 286 AD it was divided into two administrative areas. One was ruled from Rome (the capital was later moved to Ravenna), the other from Byzantium (which was later renamed Constantinople). At the time, they were both simply referred to as the Roman Empire, since people didn't see it as a national split so much as an administrative one.

Eventually, the western half collapsed under a combination of invasions, incompetence, corruption, and natural disasters. The eastern half endured and continued to carry on the name of the Roman Empire. It is referred to as the Byzantine Empire by historians, but the name was not generally used by the Byzantines themselves, who just called themselves Romans.

In 800, Charlemagne, the king of the Franks, had conquered much of France, Germany, and Italy. The Pope then crowned him "Holy Roman Emperor," and established the "Holy Roman Empire." They did this to claim that they were the legitimate successors to the Roman Empire, in defiance of the Byzantines in the east who claimed that as well.

The two empires did not get along, in part due to their conflicting claims, but also due to religious divides. The Holy Roman Empire was generally Catholic, while the Byzantines were Eastern Orthodox. The Holy Roman Empire said that the Pope in Rome was the highest religious authority in Christendom (when they weren't backing an Anti-Pope anyway). The Byzantine Empire said the Pope was merely the bishop of Rome and that as a bishop he should be subordinate to his secular lord, as was the case with the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. The Pope obviously did not want to be merely a bishop, nor did he want to be subordinate to a secular lord.

>>52944756
"Byzantine Empire" is the modern name for the Eastern Roman Empire. The western division of the Roman Empire has never been called "Byzantine." "Byzantine" comes from Byzantium, the old name for Constantinople.

>>52944808
I am an American.

>>52944801
I think, to put it more aptly, the holy roman empire was the amount of territory claimed by the pope to be part of his dominion.

This included France, Spain, Italy, Germany, and many Norwegian territories, but it didn't preclude them from fighting one another.

desu it was more of a loose confederation to defend against barbarians outside their territories than it was an empire.

There is a reason they call it a fuedal state. Feudal states aren't forbidden from warring with one another even if two vassals serve the same king.

Everybody was vying to be crowned, "Emporer" over an imaginary empire. They had simply balkanized into microfactions and were in a constant state of civil war.

and all this matters why?

>>52944625
Me too Anon. Me too.

>>52944855
> I think, to put it more aptly, the holy roman empire was the amount of territory claimed by the pope to be part of his dominion.
No it didn't. That's the Catholic world. The Holy Roman Empire is a subset of that, ruled over by an Emperor chosen by the German princes. Originally, it covered France, Germany, and Italy. Later (and for most of its existence) it was primarily Germany and sometimes also Italy.

>>52944775
>which is why it (technically) included ... sweden and norway
What the fuck are you even talking about?

>>52944855
You are aware that the HRE isn't synonymous with Catholicism, right?

>>52944821
so then for 285 years after the fall of Rome people were still calling it the Roman Empire?

When did it split?

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>>52944855
> I think, to put it more aptly, the holy roman empire was the amount of territory claimed by the pope to be part of his dominion.

No.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

This is the Holy Roman Empire.

>>52944926
>You are aware that the HRE isn't synonymous with Catholicism, right?

Well then thats ridiculous. I'm not going to trace a line back to every village in every country in every country just to conform with your native understanding of geography.

Drawing a line on a map isn't as important as establishing context. We are talking about a state of perpetual warfare and dogmatic ignorance that spanned hundred of years.

Do you want the trees or the forest?

>>52944931
Are you absolutely sure you can actually read?

>>52944936
dude, what??

The Holy Roman Empire didn't persist into the Enlightenment Era. That's absurd, you have the empire persisting into the Victorian era.

>>52944968
Protestans were also subjects of Holy Roman Emperors

>>52944936
an archmaster can go back and just edit out the HRE.

#mage supremacy!

>>52944983
The HRE was dissolved by Francis II in 1806.

>>52944997
As a formality.
In practice the HRE didn't persist past Charlemagne. It immediately fragmented and balkanized and fell on its own sword.

>>52944931
Up until 285 AD there was just the one Roman Empire that ruled over the Mediterranean Basin. In 286 AD it was split into a Western Roman Empire and an Eastern Roman Empire. The Western Roman Empire crumbled over the next few centuries, and by the 470s it was dead. However the Eastern Roman Empire endured until 1453 AD, when it finally fell to the Ottoman Turks.

The Eastern Roman Empire is often referred to as the Byzantine Empire, because its capital was in Byzantium, which was later renamed Constantinople. They themselves just called it the Roman Empire.

Later, in 800 AD, the Pope gave Charlemagne the title of Roman Emperor, and his lands were the Holy Roman Empire. The title would eventually end up becoming an elected position, chosen by the most powerful of the German princes. It ruled (in name only) over most of central Europe. Territories like Spain were not part of the Holy Roman Empire, even though they were Catholic.

>>52944997
>Francis II the archmaster?

>>52945013
FFS then why German Emperors ruled over it

>>52945013
Otto reestablished the Holy Roman Empire in 962 AD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_I,_Holy_Roman_Emperor

>>52945022
>elected position
top kek

>tfw the only good WoD games are Dark Ages: Inquisitor, Wraith, and Demon

>>52945050
Elected by about a dozen German princes who had the armies to back them up. This wasn't put to a popular vote, it was just the consensus of the most powerful lords in Germany.

>>52945034
Because it didn't exist, you blockhead!

The HRE was an empire IN NAME ONLY. France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Blessed Isles all fought amongst each other and amongst themselves, all while supposedly under the banner of the "Holy Roman Empire"

>>52945076
>it didn't exist
>it existed on paper

Well then

>>52945076
Its an empty title referring to a nonexistant empire. It was really a title bandied about by the pope to add legitimacy to whoever turned out to be the victor and cement their claims to whatever territory they captured.

We spent a thousand years in brutal darkness. How can you not understand that? Why must you romanticize everything?

>>52945096
>Its an empty title referring to a nonexistant empire.
Okay Voltaire.

>>52945089
>>it didn't exist
>>it existed on paper

these are not mutually exclusive statements when the first is taken figuratively and the second is taken literally.

>>52945076
Spain was never part of the Holy Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire was initially France, Germany, and Italy. Then it disappeared when the lands were divided among Charlemagne's grandchildren. Eventually, the German portion revived the title of Holy Roman Emperor, which persisted until Napoleon finally killed it and replaced it with the Confederation of the Rhine.

What if he's just pretending to be retarded?

>>52944968
This makes absolutely no sense, seeing as there were protestant and reformed areas under imperial control.

>>52944983
The HRE was dissolved in 1806 when Francis II abdicated the title.
Also 1806 is not in the Victorian Era.

>>52945013
Do yourself a favour and read about Otto I.

>>52945076
>France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Blessed Isles all fought amongst each other and amongst themselves, all while supposedly under the banner of the "Holy Roman Empire"
Again, the empire is not the same as the catholic faith.

>>52945096
Yeah, it was awful. But the name "Holy Roman Empire" refers specifically to the fractured mess that was central Europe. It wasn't the entire Catholic world. Hell, by the time it was finally dissolved for good, a big chunk wasn't even Catholic at all.

>>52945109
>German portion revived the title of Holy Roman Emperor

Well I can see where you get your titles from. Anyone can claim to be nobility if they back up their claims with strength of arms.

It does not bestow upon one an education, however.

>>52945096
No one is romanticizing it. The Holy Roman Empire was a stupid clusterfuck. We're just pointing out that it wasn't a synonym for the entire Catholic world. There were Catholics outside of it, and there were eventually non-Catholics inside of it. The name refers to a collection of squabbling German duchies, principalities, and city states, the most powerful of which selected an Emperor from among their ranks to supposedly rule over all of Germany. In practice, he usually didn't rule over anything but his own duchy, though occasionally you got emperors who were able to beat the others into line.

>>52945120
Well, maybe its just a case of specificity then. In America, when we learn about it, we just call that "western europe" 0-1200 AD. It was just an endless progression of wars, ignorance and barbarism that didn't end until somebody picked up a book from the classical era without then throwing it into a fire.

>>52945124
What does that even mean.

Was Napoleon not an emperor? Was Charlemagne not an emperor?

>>52945154
dear lord
You're trying to back Hitler's claim to the Papacy aren't you

>>52945152
Then you are learning some silly bullshit.

>>52945124
> Anyone can claim to be nobility if they back up their claims with strength of arms.

No shit. That's basically all it was. The dude with the biggest army. Later, the dude chosen by the dudes with the biggest armies.

It still lasted into the 1800s, and covered most of central Europe in name if not in fact. Eventually Napoleon came along and ended the whole charade, replacing it with the Confederation of the Rhine.

>>52945159
Are you dense? This is how it works. You should have some lineage but big army behind you also works. Roman emperors also claimed the title by having army back them

>>52945162
If you want to call France and Germany during the 1500's the Holy Roman Empire, be my guest. But I call its existence as a governing authority during that period into question.

>>52945152
> In America, when we learn about it, we just call that "western europe" 0-1200 AD.

I'm an American too, and I learned a lot more than just that. Went to a public school too.

Western Europe was more than just the Holy Roman Empire. For most of its history, France was a kingdom separate from the Empire. Spain and England were never a part of it.

It was a lot more complicated than just slapping a single label on the whole thing. If you had paid attention in school you might have learned that.

>>52945201
You wouldn't refer to anything as the HRE during that period. Most people just thought of it as 'christendom'. I don't think the claim to the HRE had any legitimacy outside of Charlemains original bid for supremacy.

>>52945201
No one is calling 1500s France the Holy Roman Empire. By then, it was just Germany.

And no, it didn't do much governing. No one claimed it did. But that is where it existed, as weak as it was.

Occasionally an emperor did come along who could make an actual governing authority out of it, but that was the exception.

Besides, in 1500s very few people were doing what we might call "governing" in the modern sense. That was prior to the modern nation state.

Hi... has anyone run the Transylvania Chronicles and if yes, how much did you change?

>>52945205
But, you know, if you want to persist and press your claim to German sovereignty, be my guest. Its really none of my business.

>>52945233
I won't deny the title existed, but I make no claims about its legitimacy.

this has been fun. I feel we have both revealed a bit of ignorance and we have both learned something.

But, you know, feel free to feel sour and be a poorsport if you wish.

>>52945242
The only thing I'm interested in is people actually using the term "Holy Roman Empire" correctly. It's not a synonym for Christendom, or the Catholic world, or the Pope's territory. It refers to a specific clusterfuck in central Europe started by Pope Leo III and Charlemagne, then revived by Otto I, then eventually abolished by Francis II after he got clobbered by Napoleon.

>>52945251
Legitimacy is just whoever has the bigger army. That was how plenty of Roman Emperors got their start, going back to Julius Caesar.

>>52945266
Well then you will have to excuse us ignorant american savages and add a disambiguation to the term itself, to distinguish between the title and the epithet. We can refer to the general state of the region and the popes sphere of influence as "The Royal Clusterfuck" instead.

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>>52945152
>generalising 1200 years of history into "dude dark ages lamo"
The American education system at work, I see.

There's a reason the "Dark Ages" term has fallen out of favour with historians, it's bad history. Blame Petrarch for this mess.

>>52945228
>You wouldn't refer to anything as the HRE during that period.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_I,_Holy_Roman_Emperor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diet_of_Worms_(1495)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskammergericht
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Government
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aulic_Council

Just the opening few paragraphs of everything I posted, if nothing else.

Stop posting and read for a bit.

>>52945289
I'm also American you idiot.

"Holy Roman Empire" is the disambiguation. It refers to this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire

The Pope's sphere of influence was always larger than the Holy Roman Empire. That is referred to as "the Catholic world."

>>52945280
And in truth, the title only really encompassed Germany, its Vassals and conquered territories, correct?

Since most of France considered itself separate and distinct from the HRE for half a mellenia, I think thats only fair.

>>52945299
you wouldn't refer to *anything
*a country, nation or unambiguous territory

>>52945299
I would say term "dark Ages" is accurate for the fact we are in the dark about a lot of what happened around erupe during that time.

Say I live in Poland and until 966 there aren't many records or material culture from around here to base stuff on. Obviously Duchy and later Kingdom didn't spring over night into existance but there is really limited number of sources historians can use as a base when writting baout it.

>>52945313
>the Catholic world
Well, your textbook may have used that term, but mine used "the holy roman empire". So you can call it "The Catholic World" if you like, but it sounds like a reality show you'd watch on MTV.

>leave thread
>come back sometime later
>history discussion about the roman empire and medieval europe or something

How did this happen?

>>52945315
France was originally the founder. Sort of. Charlemagne, king of the Franks, was the first Holy Roman Emperor. Though the Franks were technically Germanic, and most of the people in France, previously known as Gaul, were originally Celtic people who had been conquered by the for real Roman Empire and latinized.

After that, yeah, it was generally just Germany and sometimes Italy. In 800 AD, the Holy Roman Empire was France, Germany, and Italy. From 962 to about 1600 it was Germany and northern Italy. Then it was just Germany.

>>52945331
That's not that the term originally meant though, nor is it what it's most commonly used as. There's really no reason to continue to use it.

>>52945340
> Well, your textbook may have used that term, but mine used "the holy roman empire"

If you think that then you weren't reading it very well. No one refers to all of the Pope's sphere of influence as "the Holy Roman Empire." The Holy Roman Empire is a specific entity within that sphere of influence. And then partially outside of it, since that was where the Protestant Reformation really got going.

>>52945340
but, to reiterate, if you want the HRE to refer almost exclusively to Germany, (and sometimes France) be my guest.

Its just that from the context of the disintegrating Roman Empire, it would make far more sense to refer to ALL western roman territories that fell under christendom, which the nobles of their time thought of as their dominion.

Taken out of context, we can mistake roman bathhouse grafitti for the writing on the tapestries on the halls of the temple of aphrodite.

>>52945348
There's a guy who thinks the Holy Roman Empire is the same as western Europe/Catholicism and he's too dense to realise that he's wrong.
He also thinks the Napoleonic wars happened in the Victorian Era, amongst other things.

Blame the American school system.

>>52945369
That I agree with as it is missleading

>>52945391
Well, I'm American and all of that just sounds wrong to me on the surface. I don't have any especial knowledge of history, either.

>>52945375
So you've never encountered a Spanish or Italian text referring to "The Holy Roman Empire" as being inclusive of their territories? You've never encountered an English text that says as much? You've never read a transcipt that refferred the "The Holy Roman Empire" outside of those specified territories?

If you say that, without a doubt, that particular moniker (The Holy Roman Empire) was only ever referenced as being those specific territories, I will concede the point on the terms specificity.

Personally, I think it was used much more broadly in reference to things outside of those territories. It may have even had a theological meaning which was implied through its usage, more of an idea than clearly defined borders set on a map.

>>52945382
> Its just that from the context of the disintegrating Roman Empire, it would make far more sense to refer to ALL western roman territories that fell under christendom, which the nobles of their time thought of as their dominion.

No, it wouldn't, because that's simply not true. The western roman empire disintegrated in the 400s. The holy roman empire wasn't created until 800. There's a 400 year period in which you have things like the Gothic War, the rise of the Franks, and all manner of other stuff going on with no roman empire in the west, only the one in the east centered in Byzantium/Constantinople.

You're simply using the terms incorrectly.

>>52945437
The Italians were sometimes part of the Holy Roman Empire.

But the English or the Spanish? No, they weren't. They were Catholic (at least for a while in England's case), but they were never part of the Holy Roman Empire. They were a part of the Roman Empire and then the Western Roman Empire, but not the Holy Roman Empire.

>>52945382
>it would make far more sense to refer to ALL western roman territories that fell under christendom
No, that doesn't make any sense at all.

The Empire was a very specific entity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Bull_of_1356
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/medieval/golden.asp

It's legitimately hard to communicate with you because you keep insisting that your made up definition of an actual term is somehow correct.

>>52945447
In a feudal sense, what you claimed as your DOMINION had little to do with your TERRITORY. Just ask the frazzled cartographers of the time.

>>52945433
>especial

So you're American in the Spanish/Portuguese sense, not the English sense.

>>52945382
Large parts of the actual Holy Roman Empire was outside the borders of the Roman Empire.

People also had an ABYSMAL understanding of geography at that time. Every map from the period looks different, with overlapping territories and boundaries that expanded well outside a families realm of influence.

In the way someone might say "Ave Emperor!" you might claim that the Holy Roman Empire was all of christen dom, even when that was clearly not the case with the Byzantine Empire to the East.

You might claim that Spain was part of it in the same way the US claims the Pacific territories. If push came to shove we would divest ourselves of our holdings to preserve our republic and historians might say that puerto rico was never really part of the republic, as its culture and ethnography were completely different from that of the republic.

>>52945481
No I'm American as in a citizen of the United States of America. "Especial" in this context just meaning greater than normal, not Spanish for "special".

>>52945522
Oh sorry m8; I just see that mistake made a lot by native hispanophones speaking or writing English (meaning to say "special" but saying "especial").

>>52945504
Every Feudal state had tiny dotted land holdings and demanded taxes and tribute from territories within the reach of their might. You might collect a tax or tribute from a territory never to have your military set foot in it again. You could be being taxed by two baronies who each lay separate claim to you lands.

The HRE might refer more to what France and Germany shared culturally than to specific territories claimed on a map.

>>52945437
> Personally, I think it was used much more broadly in reference to things outside of those territories.
It was not. Find me a source that refers to England or Spain as being part of the Holy Roman Empire. Until then, see >>52944936

>>52945545
>territories claimed on a map.
the question is, were those territories you posted in >>52944936 legitimate, or some dynasties attempt at rewriting history?

Both France and Germany lay claim to the title of emperor, yet neither one could truly claim to rule over what remained of Western Rome.

I think you are just dragging me in the mud to cement your overly semantic interpretation as legitimate by citing sources without truly understanding the culture of that time.

People stop shitting up the thread with your y at best knowledge of europe history and geography.

Let's talk of this instead: how would you tie a oWoD changeling game with Mage and WtA?

>>52945437
>Personally, I think
Doesn't matter what you think, Anon, a term is a term regardless.

>It may have even had a theological meaning which was implied through its usage
I don't even know why you're just wildly making stuff up.

Charlemange was just titled Romanorum Imperator Augustus, as was Otto I. The emperors, and thus the empire, became "holy" when Frederick I adopted that in 1157.

>>52945570
>wouldnt, fuck those campy fags

>>52945557
You cite your source, but not your sources source. You lay claim to your arguments legitimacy without articles, references or context. Then say my claim is lacking veracity. It is like this fool is spinning me in circles.

>>52945437
Parts of the Holy Roman Empire include:
France (until the splintering of Charlemagne's empire under his grandchildren)
Germany
The Low Countries (modern day Netherlands and Belgium)
Bohemia (modern day Czech Republic)
Burgundy (parts of modern day France and Switzerland)
Italy (mostly northern Italy)
Austria (though it would also control territory outside the Holy Roman Empire)
Plus some slices of Poland and Croatia right on the edges.

That is all the name "Holy Roman Empire" refers to. That is all it has ever referred to.

>>52945576
Well, enjoy the rest of your evening, emperor. I'll have you're clothes sent to you by parcel. Don't be fooled by the empty box, the clothes are merely invisible.

>>52945581
Let's say you would. How do you do it?

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>>52945584
>It is like this fool is spinning me in circles

>>52945604
And if you read a french history book, i'm sure they would press their own claim.

>>52944319

This is how I'd like VtR to feel. I planned to run a game but after I read through the core I felt a bit 'meh' about it, it seems hard to play up the horror so it'll just devolve into dark superheroes politicking and drinking blood.

>>52945617
No one is pressing their claim to that clusterfuck anymore. It's dead and buried and good fucking riddance.

>>52945617
No historian would.

The Holy Roman Empire isn't fucking relative, it was a fixed, real and defined thing.

>>52945622
Hey I like my dark superheroes and cloak&dagger games but I understand it isn't for everyone.

>>52945617
France claimed a lot of territories should belong to it but French kings never laid claim to Holy Roman Emperor title

>>52945570
changelings are easy

Just picture a child prostitute who has been hooking since he was old enough to walk and is addicted to shooting up heroin and cocaine at the same time, which he calls "pixie dust". The child has suffered a complete break with reality, is hyper manic and thinks hes Peter Pan, Luke Skywalker and Robin Hood all in one.

That should be good enough for a Vampire to suck his glamoured, coked up, morphine addled vitae or put him out of his own misery.

If you want to add werewolf, add methamphetimine.

>>52945649
>French kings
> never laid claim
Except, you know, Charlemagne.

Well I know this much, this discussion has gotten me considering pokeing at V20 Dark Ages with a skutatos-turned-Kindred somewhere around Constantinople.

>>52945535
No prob bob.

>>52945656
Also the kid is gay, sneaks into clubs and routinely gets tied to bathroom stalls and glory holes and trees by the side of the highway.

>>52945685
You suck WoD.
Real world is way more scary.

>>52945666
He was king of the Franks, who were technically Germanic. True French culture didn't appear until later, as a combination of the original Celtic people of Gaul, the Romans who conquered and latinized them, and the Franks who in turn conquered them.

What we call the Kingdom of France didn't come about until 987, and even then it didn't get that name until 1190.

>>52945666
Saying that he was French, or German for that matter, isn't really correct. Especially not in any modern sense of those nationalities.
He was Frankish, and there's no real equivalent to that today, just descendants.

Hey WoD general, I've been preoccupied with other games for a while and I wanted to know what's the general consensus on Changeling the Lost's 2nd edition?

Is it looking like a solid purchase or has it gotten the Beast treatment and turned into a aimless mess?

>>52945570
Race war.

>>52945656
>>52945685

I should probably read up changeling because your examples make no sense at all to me

R8 my idea:

CoD Hunters campaign, after whatever the first major arch is. Players come in, hand out D&D 5th edition sheets, act like nothing is wrong. Lead them on a quest to kill a cult based in a small town. About halfway through the session they're all get shot by police, the rest of the session is spent as their actual characters investigating a killing spree in a small town.


Also, if anyone has ideas for names of an demonic rave/trance DJ brainwashing millennials throw them down. I'm super stuck thinking of something decent.

>>52945725
It's shaping up to be a mess from what I hear.

Hill decided to literally ragequit his job and now Rose and her team are supposedly butchering the book because Hill is gone and can't protect his parts.

>>52945737
>name of demonic rave/trance dj that brainwashes people

This might be a little too on the nose but how about DJ Trance?

>>52945728
hey, if changelings were well-behaved children, bad things wouldn't happen to them, would they?

>>52945568
>or some dynasties attempt at rewriting history?
Literally all of those dynasties no longer exist. This isn't some case of people trying to rewrite history to lay claim to something, that map just shows what the Holy Roman Empire was at those points in time.

> I think you are just dragging me in the mud to cement your overly semantic interpretation as legitimate
It's not an overly semantic interpretation. It is just what the term "Holy Roman Empire" means. Look it up. If you want another source, here's one
https://www.britannica.com/place/Holy-Roman-Empire

>>52945752
>DJ Trance?
lol, most unoriginal name ever
HAPPY HARDCORE!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGBhQbmPwH8

>>52945685
ow the edge

WoD horror comes from the feasibly as much as the grotesque you know?

>>52945570

>please stop posting things I don't like
>please start shitting up the thread with things that have been done 506 times before

Eat shit and die.

>>52945737

DJ Tits

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3H0928Ng3Q

>>52945810
awww, come on, thats just his technocracy file.

>>52945826
This is a wod thread, talk wod you nut gobbler. If i wanted a history lesson by some idiot who thinks he has the truth in his ass i would be watching history channel

If i have to choose between mageposting, repeating old shit and talking about middle age european geography, i'll take the first two


By the way what the hell is project invictus?

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>>52945836
one sick burn.
point goes to technocracy.

I think we should treat vampirism as sexual assault. There is cloned meat now, there should be artificial blood.

There really is no excuse.

Should voluntary cannibalism be subjected to FDA approval and CDC guidelines?

>>52945861
Yeah, cause we all know no one in the technocracy is 'gay'. Wouldn't fit with the pogrom.

>>52945871
What?

>>52945889
Uh, duh? Its called roleplaying? Like I'm playing a role? I'm pretending to be a werewolf who is a paralegal by day, murderous fiend by night.

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>>52942823
what is your go to clan? For me it's prob salubri or ravnos.

>>52945896
Fuck, that'd be funny actually.

He'd go around killing people, but then people will take him to court and he will keep winning. He could be a defense attorney.

They are like, WTF? The guy ate my family!

>>52945896
No I'm talking about this artificial blood. Where are you geting this from?

>>52945871
Doubt it would work, it'd probably be even less spirituality pure than animal blood.

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hazimel with weenie is great

>>52945898
Brujah are fun once they reach ancilla.

Those that serve the powers, become the powers

oh cruel irony!

>>52945906
oh.
i dunno.
google it or something.
i'm sure they have artificial blood by now.
damn progenitors seem to have everything.
lol, except stem cells

>>52945898
Nosfuratu, they're such a broad canvas for character concepts and their clanmates are the least likely to actually backstab each other (the cammy ones even get on pretty well with the sabbat ones).

>>52945908
you gotta crawl out of that catholic dogma, my man. Technology is where its at. There is a reasonable, scientific explaination for all our powers.

I'm sure of it!

>>52945934
that makes sense considering their profile. Lay low, let them kill each other, stay in hiding. Only thing is, whats to stop them from breaking the truce and committing diablerie? After all, only you and you clanmate know where you are. Who's to stop them from taking a drink from your well?

>>52945931
there's no true artificial blood substitute available yet, but there have been several formulations that can at least handle oxygen transport (though most of them are experimental). and of course volume replacement has been a thing for damn near a century. None of them would be good solutions for vampires though; they're nothing at all like real blood.

>>52945898
Gangrel because i like playing the hillbilly
And Malkavian because let's admit it Malks are the best vampires.

I'm thinking about making a blind toreador samurai one of these days, auspex should overcome the blindness isn't it?

>>52945967
Who said anything about it being artificial?
As long as blood is kept oxygenated, it will continue reproducing red blood cells. It would most likely still need regular infusions of plasma, but who's to say blood can't continue to grow outside the body?

>>52945931
Wod/Cofd isn't blade or true blood or something like that. What vamps need is some supernatural component carried in blood.

This isn't that easy

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>>52945917
brujah horde is fun, around cap 4 or 5 they are really cost efficient. Osebo horde with focus on aus and pot is nice also. Pic related is de best

>>52945984
I mean what kind of vampire doesn't at least own a dialysis machine? You're body is going to fill up with cancer and toxins, you might live forever but you'll be in constant physical pain after a few decades.

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>>52945984
>Who said anything about it being artificial?

>>52945931
>i'm sure they have artificial blood by now.

>>52945871
>there should be artificial blood.

>>52945997
i met an elder once whose blood was so thick it wouldn't seep through a syringe. He had to use this custom syringe, it was a quarter inch wide at the point. It had that snake symbol you see sometimes.

>>52945965
Because both sides are scared shitless of the Niktuku and their antedeluvian and know they have a better chance of surviving that nightmare together.

>>52945984
>>52945967
Doesn't the newest Vampire book make it VERY clear that its not the practical content of the blood that['s important, it's kind of the spiritual potency?

I suppose it's up for interpretation but I never played vampires as needing blood to live as a kind of sustenance.

>>52946025
It is the spiritual potency that's important, but I figure that artificial blood wouldn't generally *have* the same potency as the real natural deal.

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>>52945898

Tzimisce and Lasombra.

Yes, I know, ow the edge. I still love them. It probably has a lot to do with my very first time playing a Sabbat game, with very little knowledge about the game. I wasn't a shovelhead, but the Lasombra that was to embrace me put me through hell before doing that. Learning how to juggle my character on one of the Paths was fucking fun. I wish people online were more open to playing Sabbat games that weren't just "Gee, who are we going to diablerize tonight?"

Tzimisce I fell in love with by proxy. There was another player who was so fucking great at playing one, I couldn't help but just grow to love Vicissitude and all the fucked up ways to use it.

Still, I have to say Obtenebration will always remain my favorite Discipline.

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>>52946025
>>52946032
yes, but perhaps there is someway to transfer the 'vitae', as it were, through the aether?

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>>52946068
you think your hot shit, don't you, you blood sucking prick?

>>52946104
What about oil. peat or bogs?
Maybe it still contains traces the spiritual essence of life. Greece, fat, animal and vegetable oils, all potential sources of life energy.

>>52946116

What?

>>52946148
But of course, that would do nothing to satisfy the hunger, now would it?

>>52946155
sorry, just getting into it.

>>52946116
also, is kind of joke, cause being plastic surgeon and Tzimisce

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>>52946168

It's okay, anon, I'll give you a hug.

And then I'll fleshculpt you with extra arms so that you can be hugged forever and ever.

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>>52946177
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsC4kf6x_Q0

and people say were hillbillies.

If you ask me were the normal ones.

I hunt monsters for a living. Who cares if every full moon a couple sleepers get chomped on cause they got to close our sacred places? How many lives have a saved in return?

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>>52946223
>I hunt monsters for a living. Who cares if every full moon a couple sleepers get chomped on cause they got to close our sacred places? How many lives have a saved in return?
fuck, forgot pic.

>>52946233
We feed on their passion. Garou inspire humans to feel intensely. Vampires dimish humans capacity to feel by numbing them to the pain of reality.

Its not our fault that the most primal, intense emotions are fear, terror and lust.

Vampires can never have passion because they have no feeling, they are numb to the passing of the world and callous as to its cause.

mages > you

>>52946277
hehe. in their own mind maybe.

>>52946277
I cast fireball!

Congratulations. You kill everyone in the building and suffers severe burns over 70% of your body. The police arrest you and the technocracy plants a half ton of ANFO in your apartment. You spend the rest of life in solitary confinement in a technocratic construct designed to hold serial killers.

>>52946280

be silent, you bent and broke lawn chair.

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>>52946260
If I see another werewolf on COPS, I swear to god, I'm going to lose it.

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>>52946296
yes, yes.
there will be plenty of lawnchairs where your going don'ch'ya know.

>>52946296
DUUUUDE!!!
IM A LAWNCHAIR LOL!!

What do you think about the upcoming vtm 5th edition?

>>52946385
It'll be shit.

so do you think the Tszimitze are behind this transgender craze? I mean them and the fae, of course.

Also, do really ancient vampires practice good hygiene? I mean, its seems like you would pomous to scrub that rot off your 300 year old scrote. Fuck, a Nosferatu would need a firehouse and a bag lye, it'd be like the plot of Rambo all over again.

I think WOD would be more fun if there was some sort of peace accord and they were all only allowed to play pranks on each other.

Like a random werewolf would just sneak up behind and smack you in the back of the head with a 2x4 before running away giggling

>>52946411
You know people kept hygiene back in the day but it varied. Renaissance and Baroque vampires would be the worst in that regard

>>52946440
MASTER!
MASTER!
IT IS TIME FOR YOUR BATH!

(HISSS) NO!! I DONT WANT TO!

>>52946425
>Technocracy called in Code: Ragnarok
>Zapathasura now has to pay for 40 pizzas with anchois

>>52946451
I HATE ANCHOVIES!!!

>>52946451
Was Code: Ragnarok even necessary?
Didn't they just like, hit him with solar panels they already had, and then like, use up two nukes modified with Dimensional Technology?

I mean, the Syndicate can't just keep writing checks for more and more DT-capable Nukes, but that's hardly "any and all available resources" level.

>>52946440
Vampires don't smell like much though. I don't think they need to bathe. Unless they're literally covered in shit.

>>52946483
Actually, scratch that.
The Technocrats had to let off a couple of nukes cross-dimensionally, when they HATE people who fuck with dimensions.

I can totally see that requiring high-grade authorisation.

>>52946483
The weird thing about Syndicate black projects is that there is usually already an established market for most garden variety military industrial secrets.

Sattilites? Got one in my car.
Lasers? Old news.
Nukes? anon, Plz

>>52946447
Hunter: The Cleansing
Fighting the woofs
>Jesus Christ it's him!
>Grab Him! put him into the bath
>He is too strong! Use the garden hose
>NOW! Extra puffy dog shampoo
>NOOOOOOOO YOU BASTARDS!!!!

>>52946483
>Was Code: Ragnarok even necessary?

Not with how it was depicted! They nuked India for no fucking reason. Writers at their worst.

>>52946508
When you come out of here your going to end up looking like a poodle!

>>52946493
Funny, I would have thought they would smell like a dead body.

>>52946517
Caine is not so much a person as he is an idea.
But yes, in this case, he is very much dead.

>>52946546
Was this even a relevant response?

>>52946520
Truly diabolical plan! But can they make Mage....exercise?!

>>52946556
I dunno. I'm kind of running parallel man.

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>>52946564
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghWMJMbwJMg

>>52946385
Personally, I like the fact that it will support crossovers (kinda like cofd) when the new editions for the other games come out. I really hate the "you are what you eat" mechanic though

>>52946631
> I really hate the "you are what you eat" mechanic though

What is that?

>>52946701
Disciplines will depend on the people you drink blood from rather than jus spending exp whenever you want
So for example, drinking from homeless people will increase your obfuscate, people in love with you will increase your presence and dominance, etc

>>52945997
Uh, what? Vampiric cells don't conventionally divide anymore; it'd be impossible for them to get cancer.

>>52946930
really? Have you ever done a study on a vampires liver? You should see what their internal organs look like.

Its a mess, [spoilers]pathologically speaking[/spoilers]

vampires are gay lol

>>52946930
i mean really, you should see the pockets of bacteria and sepsis that develop in a vampyres body. Of course, this study was conducted under entirely voluntary circumstances. No vivisection was required.

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>>52947068
thats what makes them scary

>>52947068
>>52947117
vampires have the ability to spread homo. Not only will they turn you gay, they will make you like it!

>>52945976
If you have the blood for it maybe

Also once upon a time I played a Malkavian Hitman who used the "Fishmalk" stereotype to get close to his targets and wrench their heads off with potence once their guard was down.

First time I dropped the act, there was a stunned silence from the rest of the group.

Which edition of cWoD is most mechanically sound?

>>52947424

first

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>>52947492

>>52942387
So my players' Sabbat pack in the VtM game I'm running is gearing up to go hunt down and kill a werewolf.

My PCs are all playing fairly experienced combatants, and they've recently got their hands on a couple silver bullets and melee weapons. I'd like for this upcoming fight to be pretty brutal, but im not too familiar with werewolves in general.

What exactly about them mechanically makes them very dangerous in a fight aside from the high physical attributes and aggravated damage-dealing claws?

>>52947635
You yant a list?

-The fact that they can soak both lethal and aggravated damage, except that made from silver.
Unless they have a spceial gift that makes them abel to do it
- they are never alone, because werewolves move in packs
-they can litreally teleport
-they have magic that allowes them to create fire
-when frenzied, they are worse that any vampire
-they can talk to spirits and have them help them
-they have a plethora of magic talismans that protect them from dicipline-like effects, and weapons that are basically magically enhanced giant bowie knives

>>52947757

-Also, multiactions.
-99% of starting full moons have a gift (power) that is "fuck you i go first"
-99% of starting new moon have a gift (power) that is "fuck you i find you"

>>52947635
>>52947757
>>52947852
The good thing going for your team is if they find the werewolf in his original form, most of his immunities are null, but also his weakness to silver

But a well rounded team can defeat a single werewolf, if with some problems and probably losing a limb or three.
have them be helped with someone witth thaumaturgy, if they don't already have one
Lasombras are basically useless against them because they can find you in the dark just fine, but Vicissitude could help

>>52947852
So I suppose that would counteract my PC's usually high initiative and their tendency to make use of Obfuscate. That's good to know, cool.
>>52947757
What is it about the Werewolf Frenzy that makes it so much worse?

>>52947914
The Pack Priest of the group was talking a bit about trying to recruit a little help from another pack, though no one has been able to learn any thaumaturgy at the moment. I'll keep that in mind though, thanks!

>>52948034
>What is it about the Werewolf Frenzy that makes it so much worse?
They immediately switch into "war form", which gives them +4 dots in strenght and +1 dots in dexterity and can still spend Rage points to do multiple actions, based on the number of points in dexterity (bonus included)
Plus they ignore any wound penalty, and can still soak everything you throw at them

>>52947757
>>52947852
>>52947914
>>52948034
>>52948190

Also they immediately regenerate one non-aggravated damage level they recieved every turn, if they pass a Stamina roll (difficulty 7)

>>52947550
So, is the right answer Revised?

>>52947635
>>52948034
Don't expect to let your paty approach the Werewolf undetected, even if they spend blood to pass as human, werewolves can smell vampiers immediately unless they have humanity 8 or above

>>52948190
Sounds like Celerity on crack.

>>52948228
That's a very good trick, I'll have to make sure I remember that one too.

>>52948253
Oh yeah, I know enough about Werewolf to know that each of them would ping the whole "Wrym taint" radar if they got close to one of them.

>>52948228
No one ever enforces this rule as it's fucking stupid.

Vampires have a similar rule, which I have also never seen enforced because it's equally stupid. Combat is lethal enough as it is, why make it more so.

>>52948333
Vampires have a rule similar to this? Really?

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>>52948348

>>52948287
>>52948228
And they can turn aggravated damage by fire into lethal, so they can regenerate that too

Long story short: they must be many and well prepared, and even so, there is a high chance the werewolf might escape because there's nothing you can do to stop him from teleporting, since they can do it as an immediate action

But you can eventually wear him don and kill him, if he doesn't "remain active"

when a werewolf gets pushed into "incapacitate", he rolls his permanent Rage level (difficulty 8). He immediately regenerates a health level per success from any kind of damage , and immediately enters frenzy


But yes thse are werewolves described as in werewolf the apocalypse. I higly doubt they are balanced for figting a group ov vampires from VtM. Some tweaking might be necessary to make it a fare fight and not a meatfest and your players will be happy anyway that they managed to down a woof

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Who here likes V:tDA's Road system much better than the default Humanity/Path one?

Also, who's with me on the Torment Hierarchy of Sins from Demon: the Fallen being a lot better than the default Humanity one? All you need to do is invert the numbers.

In requiem 2e do vampire downgrade bashing? e.g. are the immune to bashing attacks?

>>52948333
>>52948348
I always used this to get through the most difficult fights. If players don't use it, it's their fucking fault for not remembering

>>52948393
>Also, who's with me on the Torment Hierarchy of Sins from Demon: the Fallen being a lot better than the default Humanity one? All you need to do is invert the numbers.
That's literally why they made it. The nice thing about Demon the Fallen's is that you can do a lot more without falling down in numbers, and doing good gains your points back.

Humanity is fucking stupid as it's scaled from least human to least human. It's physically impossible to get to 10 and sustain it, so why the fuck do they even waste the space to have it in there?

>>52945391
holy shit. How can such ignorance even exist in times of wikipedia?

>>52948564
Wikipedia itself has lots of sketchy stuff, as well as spotty citations at times.

>>52948592
that may be, but it defines the general terms pretty well.

>>52948287
>Sounds like Celerity on crack.

Yes and no, rage is only for attacking actions and when they use rage they cant use gnosis.

>>52948391
>Long story short: they must be many and well prepared, and even so, there is a high chance the werewolf might escape because there's nothing you can do to stop him from teleporting, since they can do it as an immediate action

Not really, there is a roll beforehand and depending on what edition one is playing they need a reflective surface, if you kill him on the first turn there is nothing he can do to escape that.

The average werewolf is stronger than the regular vampire but a vampire made for combat is gonna fuck the werewolf shit. Potency, Resilience and Fortitude are your best bet to kill him. 3 Vampire with potency and celerity and one of them with fortitude apart from each other would make the werewolf waste all his rage actions on 1 an the other 2 will gang up on him and kill him. Add a gangrel with aggravated claws and he is good as dead.

Potency is such a bullshit discipline in certain editions (autosuccesses on the damage roll) that werewolf have little to defend against them.

>>52948712
>Add a gangrel with aggravated claws and he is good as dead.
Not really, since werewolves can still soak aggravated damage, and will in any case still act first most of times, attacking far more often against enemies that can soak far less damage than him

Truth is, attacking a werewolf in close combat is suicide, much better off with guns

>Potence is such a bullshit discipline in certain editions
True, but first they must be able to hit him, and a werewolf can do multiple dodges with little effort dice-wise. Also, despitebeing a physical discipline, it requires quite a lot exp to build up unless you have it as clan discipline, i don't see many vampires do that until they already have a good basis with their original disciplines

All in all, depends on who hits first and who hits harder, and the werewolf is usually wins in both cases. Even if they manage to kill him, they must plan things perfectly and not get to close or they're gonna get munched

Honestly I like the /his/ shitposting more than the standard wod flavour of shitposting.

>>52948712
>>52948813
You also forgot to add that Vampires have to take away from their healing pool and blood buffing to use Potence and Celerity. They also can only spend 1 to 3 points, depending on generation.
Also Werewolves travel in packs.

>rage is only for attacking actions
There's actually nothing limiting the type of actions they can perform with Rage. It's the exact same as Celerity in that regard. Celerity does get the bonus dice for Dexterity though.

>>52949030
>Vampires have to take away from their healing pool and blood buffing to use Potence and Celerity
Wait i know that this is the case for celerity, but i always thought Potence was an automatic-always active thing like Fortitude

Does anyone have any storytimes involving seer chronicles? I've been playing with the idea of running one, but would like to see examples of them.

>>52948592
That is no excuse for rampant ignorance.
Besides, general historical articles on Wikipedia tend to be of a fairly decent quality.

>>52949131
>Wait i know that this is the case for celerity, but i always thought Potence was an automatic-always active thing like Fortitude
Did you not read the fucking power?

Potence has two modes in Revised forward: Passive and Active.
Passive gives an extra dot of Strength, that's it.
Active you spend a point of blood and you replace your Potence extra strength dots with the same amount of successes on Strength rolls for the turn.

Fortitude is all over the place based on edition but in V20 all it has is the Passive version of Potence but for Stamina. Except it doesn't count as Stamina, just extra soak for all forms of damage.
In DAV20, Fortitude is basically the Stamina version of Potence, which is what people have been house ruling for a decade, but it's still piss weak.
In DA Revised, it didn't have the Active part but allowed you to soak non-sunlight and fire aggravated attacks with your Stamina, which was better.

Fortitude has always been shitty unfortunately, and doesn't do its job very well. Being lit on fire does like 3 Aggravated levels (not dice) per turn, so you need about 9 Fortitude to ignore it in V20. It's so fucking awful compared to Celerity and even Potence.

>>52949224
I should mention that the reason why Fortitude sucks so much is that all melee attacks use Strength as a basis for the attack, so the damage formula is basically: Strength + Potence + Weapon Damage + Threshold successes
The rules for soaking are however normally: Stamina + Fortitude + Armor for Lethal and Fortitude + Armor for Aggravated. Bashing isn't worth caring about.

As you can plainly see, Aggravated damage becomes hellish to soak cause it's got an addition 2 to 5 dice over it, potentially more than that though. So damage pools are some where between 3 to 7 over the soak pool depending on luck. Basically Fortitude doesn't let you tank, but instead just sinks XP.

If you compare Celerity to it, which gives you more Dexterity dice and more actions per turn, Fortitude is fucking awful.

>>52949224
Now that's explain things, since i never played Revised, only classic and V20

>>52949025
/his/ shitposting is honestly kind of fun all things considered. WoD shitposting is usually pointless flame wars that serve no purpose.

>>52949361
Not sure what you mean by classic, but yeah they change it each edition.
They're worried that Fortitude might be OP some how which makes no sense since dice pools for damage will always be slightly higher than soak pools as most don't wear armor and threshold successes are a thing.

Oh also, Fire does an insane amount of damage compared to anything actually. A Molotov cocktail does like 3 levels of aggravated damage per turn for 1d10 turns with a difficulty to soak of 8, not the standard 6. That difficulty 8 is a hammer in the coffin for soaking fire damage. There's also Rotschreck

Wanna kill a vampire? Use fire.

>>52949431
It's better than the gender politics shitposting.

>>52949435
The edition in which Potence, Fortitude and Celerity don't give bonus points in the respective attribute, and where you don't need to spend blood to activate Potence and Fortitude

Usually i houserule Fortitude to work the same way Potence does, each point spent in the discipline is an automatic soak against normal damage, and allows you to soak aggravated

of course fire is a bane against vampires, how else are hunters gonna scour the world of that filth

>>52949611
>of course fire is a bane against vampires, how else are hunters gonna scour the world of that filth
Fire is the bane of everything. You can kill almost everything in 9 seconds with it because of the levels of damage shit. It's so fucking stupid. Doesn't make sense how firemen could even exist.

>>52949025

It generates more unique discussion rather than power wanking shit.

>>52948394
Nope. They downgrade everything that is not fire and sunlight to bashing. Bashing is healed at 2B/1V rate

>>52949632
What I don't get is why vampires don't wear firefighting gear more often.

>>52950048

>suddenly all firefighters are vampires

Would be hilarious.

>>52950078

>>52950048
Add to that fireaxe is solid weapon if you have Vigor

>>52942629
this, desu senpai

>>52946795
Wtf this doesn't make sense

>>52946315
I'm now picturing a vast underground Technocratic ware house filled with various types of furniture kept under a tighter lock and key than their nukes.

>>52951486
I know, especially for the Ventrue